View Full Version : Movie Battles: Tournament Of Champions MW Division: Round 4, Match 2
And as quickly as Round 4 began, it ENDS. With Boba Fett defeating the master swordsman that is Lee Mu Bai, we need only to figure out WHO will challenge him for the title of Grand Champion in the Final Match. As always my friends, that is up to YOU.
So allow me to present your next and Final Battle of Round 4 in this Middle Weight Division of the Movie Tournament Of Champions:
LUKE SKYWALKER (THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK)
VS.
DATA (STAR TREK: TNG SERIES)
As always, same rules apply, no time to prepare, POOFed from where ever they were, with only what they routinely carry on them (or routinely used in their films), to fight in a Large area til one stands and one falls. YOU decide Who.
Randomly Chosen Area:
Frozen North - Large snow fields are criss-crossed by ice flows and rocky outcrops culminating in fjords frozen over with ice. Pockets of thickly wooded areas (inspired by Eric the Viking, 13th Warrior).
Thanks all, and enjoy.
And REMEMBER, if youre not sure who someone is here, ASK. Theres PLENTY of people here who can tell you most anything youd like to know. Thanks again.
ALSO, please do your best to respect everyones votes, reasonings and opinions here. If you believe your character should win, but doesnt in the end, dont hold grudges against the character that beat yours, or call the votes that allowed this to happen "fanboy" arguments or plain and simply wrong. We all have our own way of thinking and voting here, with each one of our thoughts and ideas as valid as your own. Lets do what we can, even in the heat of an argument, to respect that. Thanks.
MOVIE TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS PART 2
ROUND 1
Anakin Skywalker vs. Tron: Anakin Skywalker
Bullet Proof Monk vs. Wolverine: Wolverine
Lestat vs. Jason Vorhees: Jason Vorhees
Connor MacLeod vs. Achilles: Connor MacLeod
Trinity vs. Legolas: Legolas
Nightcrawler vs. Spider-Man: Spider-Man
Paul Atreides vs. Predator: Predator
Luke Skywalker vs. Kurgan: Luke Skywalker
Mongo vs. Robocop: Robocop
John Preston vs. Valek: John Preston
Morpheus vs. T-800 Terminator: T-800 Terminator
Selene vs. Li Mu Bai: Li Mu Bai
Ginger vs. Freddy Krueger: Freddy Krueger
Blade vs. Green Goblin: Blade
Boba Fett vs. Alien Warrior: Boba Fett
Data vs. Roy Batty: Data
ROUND 2
Boba Fett vs. Wolverine: Boba Fett
Lee Mu Bai vs. Predator: Lee Mu Bai
Legolas vs. Robocop: Robocop
John Preston vs. Spider-Man: Spider-Man
Connor MacLeod vs. T-800 Terminator: T-800 Terminator
Luke Skywalker vs. Jason Vorhees: Luke Skywalker
Anakin Skywalker vs. Blade: Blade
Data vs. Freddy Krueger: Data
ROUND 3
Lee Mu Bai vs. Spider-Man: Lee Mu Bai
Blade vs. Boba Fett: Boba Fett
Luke Skywalker vs. Robocop: Luke Skywalker
Data vs. T-800 Terminator: Data
ROUND 4
Boba Fett vs. Lee Mu Bai: Boba Fett
Luke Skywalker vs. Data: ??????
Data was accused of being just a science robot a fair bit
last round. I wish to confirm whether he has a tricorder or not.
Because of course, if he was a science robot the he'd
definately have one.
schicantek
07/14/2004, 14:48
Here we go, Star Wars vs Star Trek!
That said, I think Luke's lightsaber will make a mockery of Data if he can get HTH.
In wars, the lightsabers can block their laserfire, but I can't be sure how it would stand up to the phaser. Would it deflact the beam? Would it not? I can't be sure.
Still, I think Luke can take it here.
As much as it pains me, Luke takes this. The Force is something unquantifiable, and thus a huge problem for Data. Luke can likely parry phaser fire, and there's no doubt a lightsaber will slice Data quite effectively. Data's only hope is to close on Luke quickly and take him unawares, something that will be next to impossible even with Luke's limited Force awareness.
Luke Skywalker.
Star Wars has blasters, not laser guns.
They fire energy bolts.
Luke will more than likely be able to easily deflect phaser shots as they're energy weapons similar to blasters. Once Luke closes in, Data will be toast as he's unarmed other than his phaser. Data is tough, but I believe it was pretty much conceded last round that he wasn't as tough as a T-800, whom I believe wouldn't be able to withstand being cut up by a lightsaber.
My vote for Luke Skywalker.
I vote Luke
The single stream of a phaser seems like something that would be particulalry easy for a lightsaber to parry, or even redeflect, and Data has no chance in close combat with Luke. The environment is advantageous to Data, but not by much as Luke is familiar with this type of terrain and has his force skills to help locate Data, and keep himself alive.
bluebeetle
07/14/2004, 14:55
DATA!!!!
Originally posted by rouge2
As much as it pains me, Luke takes this. The Force is something unquantifiable, and thus a huge problem for Data. Luke can likely parry phaser fire, and there's no doubt a lightsaber will slice Data quite effectively. Data's only hope is to close on Luke quickly and take him unawares, something that will be next to impossible even with Luke's limited Force awareness.
Luke Skywalker.
The Force is not unquantifiable. It is explained in Episodes
1 & 2. Now Data may not get to see these, but he is
smart enough to deduce the possibility.
Ignatz_Mouse
07/14/2004, 14:55
Luke. I think Phasers ARE nastier than blasters, which seem a lot slower, but I still don't think Luke is going to get hit. And Force-related combat is going to puzzle data.
I do wonder if Luke would be able to track Data, though. No Mitichlorians in him.
Still, Luke. Not easily, but not really in question, either.
I might point out at this stage, that Data goes on away
missions as a matter of routine.
It doesn't matter what the terrain is...he'll have experience
in it.
SpakSpang
07/14/2004, 14:58
Data wins this battle easily.
Here is why.
1)Data will not have to kill Luke just stun him. His makes Luke's reflecting the Laser back at Data mute, because it won't stun him. Also Luke hasn't fought somebody with a beam instead of a laser shoot. Who knows exactly what would happen? Could it overload the light saber? Would it just reflect off? I dunno. I will love to hear arguements on this. It doesn't matter though because Data will still win.
2)Data has the strength and intelligence over Luke Skywalker. As well if Data has his Tricorder then Luke can not sneak up on him. Which I doubt he could anyway with Data's advanced hearing, sight, reflexes.
3)Data is not just a Science Droid. Never was. He is a StarFleet officer and is a trained warrior.
4)The Phaser would be a great weapon to take advantage of this enviroment. Data can easily from Range Melt, Break the ice that would cause Luke some very difficult problems to deal with.
There are several other reasons why Data would win this battle, but I will leave some arguements for others.
Hey, DTM!!
Can the science robot have a tricorder?
Huh?...Please?
Luke will make short work of Data with his lightsaber and i think the lightsaber will still be able to deflect the phaser so i say Luke takes it.
The nice thing about phasers, is they are a remarkably
adaptable weapon.
I can easily see Data adapting his phaser to emit a
beam that could disrupt lightsabres.
Also, Star Wars blasters haven't been seen to disintergrate
anything, and so are likely to be inferior.
As they are an energy bolt, this might actually be the only
occasion where the blaster fire is slower argument
actually has a shred of truth.
SpakSpang
07/14/2004, 15:15
I do not think that Data would even worry about the Force. He will know what Luke can do with it. But he doesn't have to understand it to know how to use it to his advantage.
Data has much more advantages in this battle then Luke does. Data, will have a much easier time in this Enviroment than Luke. Remember, Ice and Snow is not a favorable Enviroment for Luke, which will not effect Data at all.
Second, Data's strength and reflexes has been shown to dodge laser fire, and his robotic brain allows him expert targeting that Luke has never gone up against.
Third, Data has been represented as not just a skilled warrior but a strategist as well. Many times he as assessed the situation and used the enviroment or whatever else he has to turn the tables on his opponent. I think this improvision will allow Data to get the drop on Luke whom is a start forward farmboy with little military experience or combat training. He just has the force.
Use the force players.
Luke wins.
SpakSpang
07/14/2004, 15:24
NOTYOU: Great Point. About PHASERS.
In Star Trek Shields are made up of energy that surrounds the ships or people (Borgs.) In Star Trek Noir to pass through the shield you just have to adjust your Phaser to the freq of the shield. I do not see why this wouldn't work for a LightSaber that channels light energy into a Single sword shape.
Second, I am disappointed in how many people are treating Luke like the Luke from Return of the Jedi. He is the Luke from Empire Strikes Back. Otherwise I would argue Luke Should not have his blaster at all.
This means Luke may have more control of his force powers, but he is not a full Jedi. Remember he was completely THRASHED by Darth Vader in Empire. He barely had the skill to stand up to him. His force powers were very weak, and took complete concentration for him to do the most minor telekinesis.
Luke will lose this battle. He is just not as skilled or prepared to battle an opponent like Data.
Originally posted by NotYou
Hey, DTM!!
Can the science robot have a tricorder?
Huh?...Please?
Sorry NY, it was decided way back in his first battle it was either phaser or tricorder, and most wanted phaser, so thats what he has now.
Hell, if DTM gives Data a tricorder, and he deduces the
possibility of Mitichlorians, as the reason the Force works,
I'd give him a possibility of configuring the Tricorder to
be able to use the force himself.
Data is smart that way.
Aw, C'mon. You gave T800 a grenade launcher after the fact.
Ignatz_Mouse
07/14/2004, 15:29
Spak: Good point about this being Luke from ESB. I had been thinking of him as Full-On Luke.
I'm reconsidering.
SpakSpang
07/14/2004, 15:30
NotYou: Don't worry if he has a tricorder. Please. Data would win this battle REGARDLESS. Read the actually arguements supporting Data, they are far more detailed and researched then Luke has. Luke just has: "He has the force and is a Jedi."
I do think Luke could win this battle occassionally, but I give it to Data 75% of the time.
Thats because it was later brought to my attention how often Arnold used it in his films.
Saying that because someone is a StarFleet officer, that they're a trained warrior is kind of like saying that someone is tough because they work for the beach police (no offense to any members of the beach police here). The world of Star Trek is a much nicer, cleaner world than the gritty Star Wars universe. The Federation gets its butt kicked all the time. Periodically, the entire fleet is devestated by things like a single borg cube passing through. They are so naive in the the Star Trek universe that they don't even have any sort of seat belts or restraints on their ships! (you all know how often people just go FLYING whenever a ship is hit). So saying that "Data is a trained warrior" doesn't really hold much water to me when you're comparing him to someone who lives in a universe that's dominated by a dark and evil empire.
I don't really think that Data's superior strength will matter much in this case. Jedi fight enemies with superior raw strength all the time and overcome them because their lightsabers cut through everyone equally, irrespective of raw strength.
SpakSpang
07/14/2004, 15:33
Ignatz_Mouse: If it was full on Luke, I could see giving it to him. Luke from Return of the Jedi was just able to stand up to Darth Vader, but was able to absorb and survive full lightning force blasts from the Emperor.
It would still be a tough battle, however Luke from Return of the Jedi could pull it off.
I'm leaning towards Data myself.
A phaser is a much more powerful and adaptable weapon than a blaster. They have settings ranging from stun to disintegrate, including a specific "heat" setting. Their frequency can be changed, which may or may not effect how they interact with a light saber. But the biggie - they can be (and have been) set to a wide range beam. All the evidence we've seen is that light sabers can't parry something like that (see Jango Fett setting Mace Windu on fire, as well as other examples from earlier matches).
Data can move at faster-than-Jedi speeds, and definitely outclasses Luke there.
Data is faster, stronger, smarter and more durable than Luke. He has a better ranged weapon and far more ability using it. He's a more skilled hand-to-hand combatant, but Luke has the Force and a light saber.
Were this the more skilled RoTJ Luke I'd probably vote with him, but I think I'm voting against this Luke.
Originally posted by Esper3k
Saying that because someone is a StarFleet officer, that they're a trained warrior is kind of like saying that someone is tough because they work for the beach police (no offense to any members of the beach police here). The world of Star Trek is a much nicer, cleaner world than the gritty Star Wars universe. The Federation gets its butt kicked all the time. Periodically, the entire fleet is devestated by things like a single borg cube passing through. They are so naive in the the Star Trek universe that they don't even have any sort of seat belts or restraints on their ships! (you all know how often people just go FLYING whenever a ship is hit). So saying that "Data is a trained warrior" doesn't really hold much water to me when you're comparing him to someone who lives in a universe that's dominated by a dark and evil empire.
I don't really think that Data's superior strength will matter much in this case. Jedi fight enemies with superior raw strength all the time and overcome them because their lightsabers cut through everyone equally, irrespective of raw strength.
Sure the federation gets a kicking often.
They fly around, exploring, effectively looking for trouble,
all the time.
The most obvious point is that they learn from each encounter,
adapt, and overcome. If they lost repeatedly without
coming back, they'd have been annihilated long ago.
And Data's strength could be a factor.
If someone attacks you with a knife, you'd be wise to block
the wrist, not the blade. Data is very fast. If he were to
catch Luke's wrist(s), he could also crush them quite easily.
Then Luke would no longer be able to use his sabre.
SpakSpang
07/14/2004, 15:39
Esper3k:
StarFleet is Earth's Military. Yes its a cleaner Universe. But that doesn't mean you do not train your soliders. In today's army medics, officers, scientists and such all have to go through basic training can keep trained.
Data is an officer aboard the largest StarShip in the Federation had. It was a creme of the crop ship. And the Federation still had enemies that it had to deal with.
Your Borg example also isn't quite fair. You are talking about the Federations most dangerous foe, and at a time they had Pacard as a member. Which means they knew everything about fighting formations, shield fluxuation and such. Later in the series the federation learned how to more adequately deal with the Borg...and they have become much more successful.
PopeJ-rod
07/14/2004, 15:41
I am going to go with Data, beacsue he can filter out all the whining that Luke is prone to. I mean all Data has to do is talk about Luke's family origins and he becomes a whining little child. Take whingin little child and throw him off cliff. Point, Set, Match.
The reason people say that Luke will win because of the Force is because the Force is an incredibly immense power. Using the Force in combat is not merely just tking people around and such, lightsaber combat is possible because the Force guides the actions of the Jedi to what they need to do, seemingly precognitively. For example, in A New Hope, Luke destroys the Death Star after turning off his targetting computer and popping proton torpedos into that little exhaust port. Data may have great aim, but that won't prevent Luke from deflecting the shots using his Force guided abilities.
Another question I had is if anyone knew how heavy Data was? Because in this environment, he may have some difficulty being very stealthy if he's constantly sinking into snow and such.
Ignatz_Mouse
07/14/2004, 15:46
I'm switching to Data.
Originally posted by Esper3k
So saying that "Data is a trained warrior" doesn't really hold much water to me when you're comparing him to someone who lives in a universe that's dominated by a dark and evil empire
I agree - saying "Data is a great warrior because he's a Star Fleet officer" doesn't hold much water. However, saying "he can beat multiple Borg or multiple Klingons in hand to hand combat, where his opponents have weapons and he doesn't" should certainly hold water when you're comparing him to someone who ran out on his training ;)
SpakSpang:
Ok how about this, StarFleet may technically be 'military', but they pretty much have never had any true combat ships until the Defiant. Even the Enterprise was not truly a warship, it was created for exploration, which is the primary function of StarFleet (To seek out new life, yadda yadda). Just because it was the largest class of ship doesn't mean that it's the best. The Enterprise carries many many familes on board with it. I don't know about you, but if I were to build a warship, I wouldn't build one with the intent for it to tote around a lot of extra baggage. If Data had been a Klingon or Dominion creation, then sure, I would say that his "warrior training" would probably be very good. But when you're trained as a warrior by an organization that isn't that militarily powerful to begin with, then that doesn't really mean much in terms of training to me.
Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
I do wonder if Luke would be able to track Data, though. No Mitichlorians in him.
If Luke can use the Force on Artoo and Threepio, I'd have to say that Data's not going to be that hard to find.
Avatar Jack
07/14/2004, 15:52
It is the greatest thing when people type up your auguement(s) for you.
VOTE: Data.
discombobulous
07/14/2004, 15:55
Data
I'm not saying Data isn't powerful. What I'm saying is that his training as a "warrior" isn't as good as many people think that it is. Imo, the training that most militaries in our world today probably outmatches that of StarFleet, they just have a technological advantage. What makes Data powerful is his innate android abilities, not any training that he's received.
Luke Skywalker.
Data isnt that much faster than Jedi Padawan reflexes and agility, and strength wont matter a BIT since Lukes not using his strength, hes using a lightsaber, which will trump Datas strength AND cut thru his enhanced durability as well.
TK, Precog, enhanced reflexes and agility, and he even IMPRESSED Darth Vader with his usage of the Force and his Lightsaber skills.
Data is great, but in the end, more often than not, I give it to the Son Of Skywalker. Looking at how well he did against Darth Vader, who admittedly wasnt trying to kill him then, lets me believe he would do equally as well against Data here, and I do not rate Data as high as a Sith Lord.
Originally posted by Esper3k
What makes Data powerful is his innate android abilities, not any training that he's received.
Data has been shown practicing HtH combat with Worf. Are you now saying that Worf has poor close combat skills as well?
Now, first of all, I'm a huge Star Wars fan, so I was upset when Blade was chosen over Anakin. However, in this case, I think people are giving Luke too much credit. I'm assuming that we are dealing with Luke from Epsodes 4 and 5. If that's the case, can someone point out a time when he deflected laser fire with his lightsaber from something other than an automated seeker? That's correct, he didn't. The only chance he really had was when he was wandering around Cloud City. His weapon of choice while walking around Cloud City: blaster. Not exactly Jedi-like there as we now know. Heck, he couldn't even deflect huge objects being thrown at him by Vader. The Luke depicted in Episodes 4 and 5 had little control over the force and the only thing that kept him alive against Vader was his swordsmanship and Vader's unwillingness to kill him. Vader was toying with him on Cloud City. If Data had a chance to prepare, I'm sure he could come up with some device to disrupt the Jedi-wannabe. Perhaps he could fashion some sort of magnetic device to take the saber out of Luke's hand. Or maybe he could just emit a high pitched tone that Luke couldn't resist. Data is nothing if not resouceful.
In this battle, Luke is a kid with a lightsaber. To call him a jedi apprentice (see Anakin Skywalker) is a stretch. Data is the seasoned veteran here and his experience takes this one.
SpakSpang
07/14/2004, 16:05
The Enterprise was the Flagship of the Federation. It split into two halfs because it was designed to go into combat and seperate the sections with the families.
Starfleet didn't have military ships in their space all over because they weren't at war. The ships could still defend their space and planets, but the need for the Defiant wasn't until they were at a full-fledge war.
Still the arguement about ships is mute, because I was talking about training of federation officers, which is also mute, because we know Data fought Klingons, and Borg without weapons.
What makes data powerful is his training and his innate android abilities.
Though the innate android abilities is similar to the arguement people are using for Luke that his innate force abilities make him powerful...but those force powers must be practiced and perfected, which Luke has yet to do in Empire Strikes Back.
coyotejack
07/14/2004, 16:12
Luke for the win.
Originally posted by DTM
TK, Precog, enhanced reflexes and agility, and he even IMPRESSED Darth Vader with his usage of the Force and his Lightsaber skills.
When I was reading this, all I could think of was Butch and
Spike from the Tom and Jerry cartoons.
Vader being impressed and saying (in Butch's voice)
That's ma boy!
Originally posted by Esper3k
I'm not saying Data isn't powerful. What I'm saying is that his training as a "warrior" isn't as good as many people think that it is. Imo, the training that most militaries in our world today probably outmatches that of StarFleet, they just have a technological advantage. What makes Data powerful is his innate android abilities, not any training that he's received.
The last two seasons of Deep Space Nine involved a huge war with the Dominion, where Starfleet was regularly seen engaging in ground combat as well as Ship-to-ship skirmishes. It was clearly shown that even ensigns like Nog had undergone extensive combat training. O'Brien, a vetran of the Cardassian War, was definitely combat-hardened and he wasn't even enlisted (or had combat as his specialty)! I think a case can be made that Starfleet were heavily trained for military service.
green_knight
07/14/2004, 16:25
Luke had trouble dodging debri that Vader threw at him. And it wasn't coming at incredibly fast speeds.
So he would have a problem with Data's blinding speed.
Data can set his phaser to a wide beam, area of effect weapon. You can't parry that. Correction, you can parry the part that comes directly in contact with the blade at that milisecond. The rest of it will incapacitate Luke as he tries to simultaneously defend his head and his feet to avoid contact with a shot that will instantly disable him, whether it touches pinky, toe, or face.
Just on those 2 things, I give it to Data.
Yes.
I don't think our special forces today have to deal with even
the smallest fraction of the things Starfleet must deal with.
I think it's fairly obvious that the training would be fairly severe.
green_knight: Where are you getting this wide-spray phaser setting from? I don't remember ever seeing stuff like that in a movie (although I haven't seen the last one).
rouge2: However, I may be wrong, but I always thought that the backbone of the Federation forces were based upon the Klingons, with StarFleet and the Romulons mostly supporting them. Even so, that's more like a trial-by-fire type of training that o'Brien had, not an indicator that it was training in particular that StarFleet had given him.
Does anyone know if Data currently has the emotion chip enabled?
And what's to keep Luke from tking Data up to a great height and dropping him repeatedly? We know Luke couldn't lift the X-wing in ESB, but it moved, and I don't think Data is nearly as heavy as an X-wing.
Wide beam phaser fire has been seen in the series.
The chip would be on if Data felt it should be on, or if he
prefered it on. He can switch it on and off, 'mentally'.
Data was seen to fall from a great height in First Contact I think.
He landed on his feet, and went about his business.
Nor would he be disorientated by being moved, it would
not break his focus
Ignatz_Mouse
07/14/2004, 16:50
Originally posted by DTM
I give it to the Son Of Skywalker. Looking at how well he did against Darth Vader, who admittedly wasnt trying to kill him then,
You mean where he got his hand cut off? Ringing endorsement!
Ignatz_Mouse
07/14/2004, 16:53
Originally posted by SpakSpang
Still the arguement about ships is mute, because I was talking about training of federation officers, which is also mute, because we know Data fought Klingons, and Borg without weapons.
It's "moot" not "mute."
SpakSpang
07/14/2004, 17:41
Ignatiz: Thanks for the correction. Sometimes I write fast, and I never proofread.
Esper3k: TK with the force has nothing to do with weight. But willpower, and believing without doubt you can do something. This Luke had trouble with the subject. The most he was able to move in ESB was his lightsaber and some rocks. He couldn't move the X-Wing, because he could grasp that it was his will alone that let him move things. He doubted.
I don't think Luke will be able to Will Data in the air or anything. For that matter I also do not think Luke will be able to TK very much of anything in this enviroment, or rip the phaser out of Data's grip.
So the TK is not going to be useful for Luke.
The Wide Beam is something used for the Stun feature of phasers, and it was used just a few times in the show. I don't remember how powerful it was in that form, or anything, but its from the television show not the movies.
darthfatty
07/14/2004, 17:50
Ummm...yeah. It's gonna be Luke. I'm not as familiar with Trek as I am Wars, but I can't think of a single instance of a droid defeating a Jedi one-on-one like this. Even IG-88 used his social contacts to set traps for Jedi.
Luke's connection to the force and his superior weaponry (don't forget; he carries a blaster, too) give him the win.
Star fleet is a bunch of special forces?! Not with goofs like Wesley Crusher, and Barkley there. Gawd I can just see Scottie whoopin someone up with a survival knife.
This is Empire Luke...not ROTJ Luke. He does not have the skills that everyone is giving him. He can duel with the saber, but lost to Vader. He cannot deflect things. It took a lot of control to get that saber to him when dealing with the Snowbeast (whatever it is called). He almost died in the snow and would have without Solo coming. He lifted the androids and rocks, but let it fall when he was distracted. He used the blaster in Cloud City, not his saber nor his force skills to mask his presence. he does not have the training nor the skills to beat Data here, not in this environment.
I am not saying that Luke would lose all the time, but more than 50% of the time, Data would win this.
Rokk_Krinn
07/14/2004, 17:54
I can't really buy into the "Data's a Star Fleet Officer and thus a trained warrior" arguement. Just use our real world as an example: a trained Air Force officer who has an MOS in meterology would hardly be considered a "trained warrior" by the rest of us, right? And you can't say all Star Fleet Officers are superb warriors - I adore Bones but does anyone really see him as a highly trained super-soldier? Scotty? Crusher (either one)?
Luke is also faster than a normal person, so I'm not sure Data's slightly enhanced speed (he's not really shown moving at Flash or, heck, even Quicksilver speeds) would factor there.
The phaser is also a small object - perfect for Luke's telekinesis if one really wants to argue that the saber won't help Luke against it (and I'm really not convinced there).
Sorry but I just don't see Data taking out a telekinetic, super-acrobatic (as per his training with Yoda in ESB) blaster-packing, lightsaber-wielding soldier.
Vote: Luke
green_knight
07/14/2004, 17:57
Unlike most contestants, I see Data as able to walk right up to Luke and sacrifice an arm just so he can use the phaser on him with his other hand. That's if he feels like going into hand to hand.
And as for Droids getting the best of Jedi, Attack of the clones, anyone? And don't give me that "they were outnumbered" baloney. If they cant deflect blaster shots at other droids in an arena like that, they are not worth their salt as Jedi. Those guys didn't start off terribly outnumbered, if you remember the big troop transports dropping them off. They just ended up that way as they were slaughtered wholesale. It was embarassing to see the jedi give such a poor accounting of themselves, especially since they were rumored to have one or 2 jedi patrolling planets single handed. I don't see how they could have done that.
As for Data being just a droid, he is superior to the droids in any Star Wars movie. Period. Those droids lost to freaking Jar Jar's clown of a race. Nothing says galactic incompetence like having Jar Jar wuss slap you.
And if Luke did Tk Data up, to drop him, he'd be getting shot with a phaser the second it happened. Luke in ESB is not good enough with his force yet to use TK and lightsaber combat at the same time. He's still young. Talented. Extremely talented. But very inexperienced and stubborn. Well, at least we know where he gets it from.
darthfatty
07/14/2004, 18:03
SpakSpang, is this Luke from ESB, or the whole series? In ROTJ, he TK'ed C-3PO with litle effort. In ESB, he was a student. Even Vader admitted that Luke's training was complete in ROTJ. Also, citations from other sources are admissible here, so we need to take Dark Empire (in which, Luke's skills were as far beyond ROTJ as ROTJ was beyond ESB) into consideration. Luke no longer doubts. He has a school, and is training the next generation of Jedi.
Originally posted by Rando
Star fleet is a bunch of special forces?! Not with goofs like Wesley Crusher, and Barkley there. Gawd I can just see Scottie whoopin someone up with a survival knife.
Well you see, when it comes to the humans, naturally they'll
have strengths and weaknesses. They'll be better at some
things than others, and have specialities.
Data, absorbs everything he is exposed to, and can do it
all. He can specialise in any field, as he excels in all
fields.
Ignatz_Mouse
07/14/2004, 18:06
Rokk, we've *seen* Data take on Borg. He trains with Worf. Forget the suggestion that all officers are that well trained. *Data* is.
darthfatty
07/14/2004, 18:11
Ah, a little reading helps. RSB Luke, it is. In that case, this is a grossly unfair contest. Data has how many episodes and how many movies to draw on, while Luke gets one movie?
Shenannigans (sp?) on this match-up.
Let's reiterate this is ESB Luke.
RotJ Luke is a HW.
Further, Data has been shown as being very fast.
In the series, there's an episode in a mining colony, where
some microscopic new lifeform is unearthed.
Nanites, or something like nanites. They refer to humans
as 'ugly bags of mostly water'.
Anyway, they take control of a cutting laser, and Data is
trapped in a small room while they are blasting away with this
laser, trying to fry him.
He constantly dodges and side steps for several minutes
before the doors get opened.
This to me is one of the most memorable examples of his
speed.
Ignatz_Mouse
07/14/2004, 18:33
Double post. Whups.
StilettoHawaii
07/14/2004, 18:39
If this was ROTJ Luke he would win, but against this Luke
Data wins
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
I can't really buy into the "Data's a Star Fleet Officer and thus a trained warrior" arguement. Just use our real world as an example: a trained Air Force officer who has an MOS in meterology would hardly be considered a "trained warrior" by the rest of us, right? And you can't say all Star Fleet Officers are superb warriors - I adore Bones but does anyone really see him as a highly trained super-soldier? Scotty? Crusher (either one)?
Not arguing "all" Star Fleet officers. We're saying that Data, who has fought multiple armed Klingons unarmed and who trains with Worf is a trained close-combatant.
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Luke is also faster than a normal person, so I'm not sure Data's slightly enhanced speed (he's not really shown moving at Flash or, heck, even Quicksilver speeds) would factor there.
Actually we have. There's the aforementioned "dodging a laser" example, the time he sorted and placed several dozen "computer chips" in under a minute, the time he went rogue and had an ungodly long "PIN" that he locked everyone out of the Enterprise control system with that he could type in taking about the same amount of time as a regular person entering a regular length PIN.
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
The phaser is also a small object - perfect for Luke's telekinesis if one really wants to argue that the saber won't help Luke against it (and I'm really not convinced there).
If this was RoTJ Luke I might agree. But as I said in an earlier fight, we've never seen ESB Luke successfully TK anything that had any resistance unless he was concentrating strongly.
green_knight
07/14/2004, 18:53
Data's superspeed has also been shown in the episode where he created a daughter. Her positronic matrix was failing (her brain was crashing) and Geordi said that he couldn't even see Data's hands, because they were moving so fast to make repairs. Ultimately the daughter died, but only because here entire brain shut down at once and Data couldn't rebuild it instantly. Close, but not instantly.
The nice thing about phasers, is they are a remarkably
adaptable weapon.
I can easily see Data adapting his phaser to emit a
beam that could disrupt lightsabres.
I could easily see him using the standard-setting of having a wide-beam stun that's just wider than a lightsaber. It's fairly low-level when on wide beam, but it'll definitely take some out of Luke.
I vote Data.
AEONFLUX
07/14/2004, 19:01
Yeah, Data wins this one... Luke can go get some more practice and try again some other time. ;)
Data is moving on to the next round...
SpakSpang
07/14/2004, 19:04
The Reason DTM limited it to Empire Luke is because we felt Jedi Luke may be too powerful for this contest.
You do have two movies to draw from with Empire Luke, and because its is Empire Luke he gains his Blaster, which I would argue if we were using Return of the Jedi Luke he would not use.
This also made Luke different from Anakin. Both were young aprentices, but Luke has less experience, but a blaster and a pure heart. Anakin had more experience, but a bad attitude and an emotional wreck.
Unfortunately, because we are using Empire Luke, and not Return of the Jedi Luke, or full on Luke, many source material that draws on how skillful Luke is can't be used...because he is not at that stage.
Data is a deceiving character. When you first look at him, you think he is a chump. But through out the television show, and even limited to just the movies we show Data as an incredible individual and a worthy opponent. I would have almost made Data Heavy Weight. Data with a tricoder definately.
Data should take this battle, and should also when the next battle hands down.
Again, most of the material people are citing are from the tv shows, not from the movies. Where have we seen instances of Data's super speed, for example, in the movies? In the movies, we've seen him fight Borg, sure. We've also seen him cower like a small child when his 'skin' was scratched.
My point about Luke tking up Data is that he did move the X-wing though. And although he couldn't lift it, Data would be much easier to lift than the X-wing, and I could very easily see Luke believing that he could move Data around.
I had forgotten about Luke's blaster as well, which I figure could probably do a number on Data also.
Sources outside the films are allowed, with the exception of
comics for movie characters who are also comic characters.
And assuming that the outside sources still portray the same
'version' of the character.
Originally posted by Esper3k
Again, most of the material people are citing are from the tv shows, not from the movies. Where have we seen instances of Data's super speed, for example, in the movies?
Sources regarding a movie character that do not come from a time frame after the movie in question (say RoTJ material for Luke) or refer to a different version of the character (say comic-book Spider-man) are allowed. Which means all of the episodes are valid source material for Data's abilities.
Originally posted by Esper3k
My point about Luke tking up Data is that he did move the X-wing though. And although he couldn't lift it, Data would be much easier to lift than the X-wing, and I could very easily see Luke believing that he could move Data around.
Perhaps he could lift Data up, but then he couldn't block the phaser shot Data would take at him. Luke had to concentrate strongly to levitate in ESB.
Well he could always use it horizontally, for example, to push Data off a cliff. I'm not sure exactly how durable Data is as in the tv series, we've seen panels and such pop open all the time (especially those ones on his head). Do we even know if Data is really waterproof once his panels are open? Since once his skin covering has been breached, it would be very easy for ice, water, and other foreign particles to enter his system in this environment.
Also, I don't really see Data as being all that aware of his surroundings, as in First Contact, he was captured by the Borg by reaching (at nowhere near superspeeds) under a door and grabbing him. When he fell down, he pretty much had a stunned look and didn't do anything as he was taken away by them.
His skin covering is largely for aesthetic purposes, to make
him appear more human. We saw it dissolved away in
First Contact, showing what he looks like 'functionally'.
It would be this surface that would need 'breaching' before
any of the environmental effects you suggest would have
any hope of effecting him.
And while he is TK'ing whether vertically or horizontally,
he does, as Grinner pointed out, open himself to attack.
Well his whole character twist in that film revolved around him
getting tempted by the Borg. They had to get him somehow.
But while we're talking awareness, there is the whole
'I got took down by a wampa' thing from the beginning of ESB.
TKing Data would not necessarily open Luke to attack. We don't know what the effective range on tk is, but we do know that you don't have to actually see what you're tking to do so (for example, Vader moving stuff from behind him, Yoda closing his eyes to lift the X-wing). Luke could hide out where Data can't see him and then tk him.
and with Luke getting taken down by a wampa thing, that can just as easily be called a plot tool so that he and Han get get a further chance to bond together.
However, without a Tricorder, I don't remember any instance of Data having any sort of superhuman senses. From the looks of it, Geordi's eyes in First Contact are better than what Data has as I don't recall him ever looking at something and saying exactly how far it is away or saying that something is approaching based off of his hearing.
Luke, on the other hand, as with most Jedi has the Force telling him where things are beyond what human senses can detect, which I believe gives him the advantage in sensing his opponent's approach.
Luke isn't a Jedi.
Not for another 2 hours.
And actually it was a plot tool to explain the facial scar he
(Mark Hamill) acquired in a crash.
Maximcards
07/14/2004, 20:51
Luke
PirateRoberts
07/14/2004, 20:55
Gotta go with the robot on this one. Data is mad strong and smart, he'll figure something out!
Really? I always thought that Hamill had the accident after ESB. Guess you learn something new every day.
Just because Luke isn't a full Jedi doesn't mean that he can't use the Force to aid his senses and perceptions. He's trained with that little sphere that zaps you while wearing the helmet with the face-plate. He made the shot on the Death Star's exhaust port unaided by any targetting computer, relying upon the Force to guide him. He's sensed his friends in danger in Cloud City while on a different planet.
So sure, he's not a full Jedi yet, but he's almost there, and I believe his control of the Force + blaster + lightsaber is enough to give him the drop on Data. The way I see it, the only way Data can win is in a long range battle, and even then it's not assured as both have powerful long range weapons. In a close combat fight, I'd say that Luke pretty much wins hands down because of the Force+lightsaber advantage.
Silver Lantern
07/14/2004, 21:53
I vote Data, he will dicharge a Tachion Burst from some gadget, that will knock out chumpboy, and then he just has to Vulchan pinch him for the 10 Sec KO!
Would be a decent fight, but in the end Data is gonna take him, he is too fast and too strong for a novice Jedi to try and take out.
Data for the win
Mr_Clicky
07/14/2004, 22:20
Luke wins.
WakandaMan
07/14/2004, 23:44
Data takes Luke.
At range Data has a serious edge. He will be able to dodge Luke's blaster fire easily enough, and Luke use of TK isn't developed enough to use in combat at this point (Esper3: consider how long it took him to just move the X-wing). Even without a Tricorder, I think Data will be able to modify his phaser to either penetrate through Luke's saber, or more likely, disrupt it entirely. Data's scientific analysis is unparrelled, and while a tricorder or computer would help him, he doesn't need it. Even if he can't, Data is much smarter than Luke, and his brains will win the day.
As for Starfleet training, all officers are trained in 'basic combat skills' at the Academy. While I would consider that equivalent of Special Forces training, it is sufficient to put them on equal footing with Klingons, Romulans and other species which are far stronger than humans. Security Officers (which make up a very large proportion of the crew of any startship) are far more specialised, and get a lot more combat training. Not that this has anything to do with Data. As others have mentioned, he excels in every field, and has shown excellent combat skills.
Really the only edge Luke has on Data is the Lightsaber. But as others have stated, Data is quick enough to grap Luke's wrist and disarm him before he can use it.
How would Data be able to modify his phaser in such a way so that he could shoot through the lightsaber when he had no knowledge of how a lightsaber works and really doesn't know anything about the Force other than that it's all around us and some people can use it?
Data is fast, but I don't think he's fast enough to grab Luke's wrist and disarm him without getting chopped apart by Luke's lightsaber. Consider that Luke's still fast enough to deflect laser shots and still is guided by the Force to where his lightsaber needs to be.
Also, although Luke may need to concentrate to use the Force to TK, what's keeping him from using TK on Data's internal systems from a hiding spot?
Originally posted by bear42
Now, first of all, I'm a huge Star Wars fan, so I was upset when Blade was chosen over Anakin. However, in this case, I think people are giving Luke too much credit. I'm assuming that we are dealing with Luke from Epsodes 4 and 5. If that's the case, can someone point out a time when he deflected laser fire with his lightsaber from something other than an automated seeker? That's correct, he didn't. The only chance he really had was when he was wandering around Cloud City. His weapon of choice while walking around Cloud City: blaster. Not exactly Jedi-like there as we now know. Heck, he couldn't even deflect huge objects being thrown at him by Vader. The Luke depicted in Episodes 4 and 5 had little control over the force and the only thing that kept him alive against Vader was his swordsmanship and Vader's unwillingness to kill him. Vader was toying with him on Cloud City. If Data had a chance to prepare, I'm sure he could come up with some device to disrupt the Jedi-wannabe. Perhaps he could fashion some sort of magnetic device to take the saber out of Luke's hand. Or maybe he could just emit a high pitched tone that Luke couldn't resist. Data is nothing if not resouceful.
In this battle, Luke is a kid with a lightsaber. To call him a jedi apprentice (see Anakin Skywalker) is a stretch. Data is the seasoned veteran here and his experience takes this one.
Two things:
Luke at the end of ESB is HARDLY just a kid with a lightsaber, as his battle with Darth Vader CLEARLY points out. It lasted quite a bit, even to the point where Vader says hes Impressed with what Luke can do.
And second, the VERY first thing Obi Wan teachs Luke is how to deflect blaster fire with his eyes Blocked. You dont think in the past 3 or 4 years from ANH to ESB that hes been practicing that? We clearly see him as a PRO at this in ROTJ, which is only one year after ESB. Do you think he learned to deflect shots all in his last year, something he was taught on Day One of his training, something any other Jedi Padawan is a veritable expert at?
Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
You mean where he got his hand cut off? Ringing endorsement!
You didnt finish....where he got his hand cut off, AFTER actually HITTING The Sith Lord with his own lightsaber, and fighting with him thru Cloud City for a lengthy period of time.
Yes, I definately think that speaks quite highly for a character some of us think as a Jedi newbie or whinning boy.
Originally posted by Grinner
If this was RoTJ Luke I might agree. But as I said in an earlier fight, we've never seen ESB Luke successfully TK anything that had any resistance unless he was concentrating strongly.
As pointed out before, in ESB Luke used TK to return his lightsaber to his hands, in a moments notice, while fighting Darth Vader, and managed to turn in on and block Vader attack with it. If this doesnt say I can TK a lightsaber sized piece of metal in a split second during battle, nothing does.
VandalSavage
07/15/2004, 02:03
I vote....Luke!!
Mr. Savage
Originally posted by Goose
Would be a decent fight, but in the end Data is gonna take him, he is too fast and too strong for a novice Jedi to try and take out.
Data for the win
A novice Jedi wouldnt have lasted 2 seconds with Darth Vader, and would have EASILY been frozen for his trip back to the Emperor. Luke wasnt and managed to escape such a conflict with only a lost hand.
Guys, this is NOT Luke from the beginning of ESB, this is him at the films end. He learned MUCH in his crach course with Yoda, the greatest Jedi Master of all, and he became MUCH more powerful as the film went on.
Dont use the Wampa battle as an example, as this Luke is Far beyond that in lightsaber skill and Force ability.
Data - 18 votes
Luke Skywalker - 17 votes
Juggernaut146
07/15/2004, 02:46
Im going Data with this one. Datas just to smart for Luke, hell deffinetly figure something out. And also if Vader wanted to in the esb Luke couldve been dead in two seconds. As stated earlier Vader was just toying with him.
green_knight
07/15/2004, 03:10
Maybe if the Dark lord of the Sith that Luke was fighting wasn't his own father, Luke might not have gotten as far as he did. Obviously Anakin had a soft spot for him, he even turns on his own master for him.
WakandaMan
07/15/2004, 05:10
ooh...it's nice and close. Could really go either way. When will the voting be closed for this match?
Originally posted by Esper3k
How would Data be able to modify his phaser in such a way so that he could shoot through the lightsaber when he had no knowledge of how a lightsaber works and really doesn't know anything about the Force other than that it's all around us and some people can use it?
Have you ever seen an episode of Star Trek? The science geeks and the engineers of the federation specialise in this kind of thing. Now usually, they need their tricorder, or a ships computer to do it, but this is Data. He has the knowledge and ability to be able to do this all by himself. It might take a little trial and error, but he would do it. As for the Force, it's just another intriguing phenomenon for Data to investigate, but I really don't think that would even come into it.
Data is fast, but I don't think he's fast enough to grab Luke's wrist and disarm him without getting chopped apart by Luke's lightsaber. Consider that Luke's still fast enough to deflect laser shots and still is guided by the Force to where his lightsaber needs to be.
He certainly is fast enough. Plenty of others have already given good examples of this, so I don't need to repeat them. I could see Luke possibly cutting one of Data's hands off, but that would just leave him open for data to grab him with his other one.
Also, although Luke may need to concentrate to use the Force to TK, what's keeping him from using TK on Data's internal systems from a hiding spot?
This is a MUCH more complicated use of TK which we haven't seen any Jedi's do, little own Luke with his under-developed ability.
Originally posted by DTM
As pointed out before, in ESB Luke used TK to return his lightsaber to his hands, in a moments notice, while fighting Darth Vader, and managed to turn in on and block Vader attack with it. If this doesnt say I can TK a lightsaber sized piece of metal in a split second during battle, nothing does.
Okay, good call. But a lightsaber sized piece of metal isn't going to affect Data. If Data dropped his Lightsaber, Luke could TK it away. But he's certainly not going to TK it out of Data's super strong hands.
Rokk_Krinn
07/15/2004, 06:55
Sorry, but in regards to Data's speed that seems to stick primarily to his hands (hand-eye coordination: anyone can move their hands fast, but actually performing comlex movements while doing such is a different matter) and not overall body movement. Yes, he kept dodging those lasers in the small room, but I don't consider that an example of speed so much as endurance - most people would've dodged for a bit but would start slipping up as they began to tire while Data didn't.
I'm a little wary of the modified-phaser arguement, especially since it relies on whether or not it's even possible a lightsaber operates in a "wavelength"-style manner.
One of the big problems with Data is not only does he have about ten times as many books to cite as any other character in this contest but how many television episodes? That gives him a huge plethora on which to draw. Not sure television episodes should be allowed for arguements but I understand the validity of them.
What's to stop Luke from tk'ing the saber itself as a "dancing sword" to keep Data busy?
With the modified phaser argument, I still don't believe that Data has the knowledge of a lightsaber and the Force to do modify a phaser to shoot through it on the spot with no tools, spare parts, or ANY working knowledge of how a lightsaber or the Force works.
The nice thing about a lightsaber is that you don't really have to swing it to use it effectively. A mere flick of the wrist will cut pretty much anything an opponent has other than another lightsaber. If Data tries to reach an appendage in, all Luke has to do is gently turn the lightsaber to intercept and Data's lost a limb. If Data tries to grab with two hands, all it'll take is one pass of the lightsaber to disarm him (ha ha).
We've seen Vader suffocating people with the Force from across a viewscreen since the first movie. Granted, Luke is not at Vader's level, but if he can use the Force to move around Data's internals, for example, that can potentially cause some serious damage, especially when he can do this without Data even knowing where he is. And as was pointed out by Rokk_Krinn, Luke could also tk out the saber and boomerang it back.
I think you're way overestimating Luke's TK.
If he were to TK his sabre out, I doubt he'd get it back.
Also, in close Data has the luxury of being able to sacrifice
large portions of his body in order to get a clear shot.
However, having watched episode 2 last night, I noticed that
Obi Wan got hit by Dooku twice, receiving only minor wounds.
(Minor in comparison to losing limbs at least)
This would suggest that Luke's going to need to put a bit of
heft behind his swings in order to harm Data, and that will
give Data a good window of opportunity.
Finally, while Data does not have the knowledge of lightsabres,
he does have an amazing deductive brain, and deducing
the possibilities is a matter of routine for him. It's no stretch.
And Rokk...anyone could dodge a laser??
Well we don't know how functional Data would be after losing large parts of his body. If he took a hit to the torso, for example, I don't believe that he would be all that functional.
As for lightsaber wounds, I believe that the argument could very easily be made that Obi Wan took relatively minor wounds because of 1) his training as a Jedi to reduce/avoid damage from lightsabers and 2) Dooku was probably toying with Obi Wan. We've also seen in numerous times how easily a lightsaber cuts through things, such as when Vader takes off Luke's hand with a flick of the wrist or how easily droids get chopped through.
Data does have a powerful brain, but I still can't believe that he can deduce enough about a lightsaber and the Force to be able to modify a phaser to totally go through a lightsaber when he has absolutely not knowledge of how a lightsaber or the Force works. Leonardo Da Vinci had a powerful brain, but he won't deduce the laws of quantum physics just by looking at light. Plus, you don't know that 1) a phaser can even be modified to shoot through a lightsaber, and 2) Data doesn't have any sort of tools here to modify it, nor does he have a tricorder to help him calibrate the phaser, etc.
AEONFLUX
07/15/2004, 10:19
Data wins this like I said before, Lukey is just not up to snuff for the big brain.
And yes, he more than likely could deduce the nature of a lightsaber, even if it operates using physics that are unknown... even then it would take data slightly longer to figure it all out.
Rokk_Krinn
07/15/2004, 10:21
Originally posted by NotYou
I think you're way overestimating Luke's TK.
If he were to TK his sabre out, I doubt he'd get it back.
And Rokk...anyone could dodge a laser??
According to the movies, yes. :P How many times have we seen people dodge weapon's fire in just the Star Trek shows let alone adding in James Bond, Star Wars, etc. If it had been, say, Riker in there they'd have shown him dodge the first couple blasts and then start getting minor cuts on him as he tires and gets nicked.
I think you're underestimating Luke's TK now. He can lift a starfighter (yes, with effort I admit) but something as light (no pun intended) as a saber would be difficult for him to manipulate? As DTM says: this isn't Luke during the Hoth scenes, this is Luke after Yoda - whom even Anakin didn't get training from - has had some time with the boy.
guilex78
07/15/2004, 10:36
after trodding through 108 posts, the Data camp has convinced me. But it was a tough convincing. Data for the win.
Luke at the end of ESB is HARDLY just a kid with a lightsaber, as his battle with Darth Vader CLEARLY points out. It lasted quite a bit, even to the point where Vader says hes Impressed with what Luke can do.
Yes, I believe Vader said he was impressed right after he disarmed Luke's lightsaber. Plus, what else is a father going to say about his son! Like it or not, Vader was using kid gloves on Luke in that battle. If he was fighting anybody but his son, they would have been cut down in moments. It is only after Luke's glancing blow on Vader that Vader gets semi-serious. He decided to only take Luke's hand.
And second, the VERY first thing Obi Wan teachs Luke is how to deflect blaster fire with his eyes Blocked. You dont think in the past 3 or 4 years from ANH to ESB that hes been practicing that? We clearly see him as a PRO at this in ROTJ, which is only one year after ESB. Do you think he learned to deflect shots all in his last year, something he was taught on Day One of his training, something any other Jedi Padawan is a veritable expert at?
Objection, your honor! Assuming facts not in evidence. If Luke was so good at deflecting laser blasts, why was he holding the blaster in Cloud City? First Boba shoots at him and the best thing he can come up with is ducking out of the way. He didn't get out his saber. Second, a squad of stormtroopers start shooting at him. Once again he doesn't resort to the lightsaber. It is only when he confronts Vader that he gets out his saber. What he did in ROTJ is immaterial. Yes, he blocked laser bolts with ease in ROTJ. If he could even do it a little bit, he would have been doing it on Cloud City. Yes, Luke was a wrecking machine in ROTJ. No argument there. But he wasn't even close to that in ESB.
Deducing the nature of a lightsaber is a far far cry from learning the specifics of how it works to such an extent that you can modify something as complicated as a phaser to the point where you can shoot all the way through it. Especially from viewing just two movies where they make no mention whatsoever of -how- a lightsaber works. For all Data knows, it could have a tiny little gnome inside it riding a little bike that magically generates the saber. The very laws of the Star Wars universe is different from those of the Star Trek universe. The Force does not follow any rules known to Data. Data is impressive, no doubt, but by your reasoning, Data would be able to figure out how Harry Potter's magic works and be able to make a wand that disrupts all of his magic :P
SpakSpang
07/15/2004, 11:16
Data is a scientist. His world studies and understands light phyics, and lasers and such much more effectivly than the Star Wars universe. That is why people say that Data could modify the Phaser. The phaser was designed to be a weapon that could be modified to any situation. And it has been shown within the Star Trek universe to be able to go through shielding and such, which I believe is comparable to the blade of a lightsaber.
Data will not have to worry about TKing, because he can be on guard for that and sense the opening for the attack. He will have watched the movies and know what he can do. Secondly, Data if he is smart (which he is) won't have to worry about the TK pulling of his phaser, because he can set the phaser on self destruct, and when Luke catches it BOOM!!!
In fact that is a new way for Data to have easy victory. The blast from the phaser self destructing is huge. Data could setup a trap and Lure Luke into it. Or just throw the weapon before it explodes at Luke. It would be a risky move, but one that would catch him off guard.
Last, I don't remember Luke being able to sense the Droids using the force in any of the movies...Nor do I even remember any of the Jedi from the Prequels being able to do that. Which is possibly why droid armies were created in the first place. Why do people think that Luke will be able to detect Data using the force?
I don't think Luke is nearly at the skill level everyone thinks he is at. Darth Vader in ESB wasn't ever trying to kill Luke. Instead he was trying to enrage him and set him on the path to the darkside. In that scene Darth Vader was basically the devil tempting Luke with anything and everything. Death, Power, Family, Anger. Luke resisted. And the only two things that people quote for Luke's control during combat is TKing his lightsaber in a near life death situation (yes you can pull that much willpower when your entire life depends on it) and just fighting Darth Vader. Which when you realise what is really going on in that scene you realize Luke isn't truthfully in a fight for his life, but a fight for his soul.
SpakSpang
07/15/2004, 11:24
Esper3k:
Harry Potter, with magic is different than two movies using somewhat scientific ideas for weapons.
Also when you put two characters together in a battle, you MUST reasonably blend both universes together, and create a suitable medium universe to which both characters can fight.
Now we can argue about which is more reasonable blend of the universes. I think it is completely reasonable for Data to be able to use his science knowledge and the adjustability of the phaser to affect the lightsaber.
You may argue that the most reasonable blend of the universes is that nothing can effect the lightsabers blade, as nothing did in the Star Wars universe. That is fair arguement as well.
But if you decide it could be done. Let it known Data is the most intelligent character in Star Trek universe and he would be able to do it. He has been shown in countless episodes of Star Trek and in some of the movies to be able to improvise and plan advanced plots quickly.
Whether or not Data can disrupt the light saber is a moot point. The phaser can be set for wide-beam/area-effect which Luke cannot parry. No disruption needed, no unusual modifications to the phaser or wavelength needed.
What episodes have they set phasers to wide beam settings? If it were so easy to do so, I would've thought that they would do so in more episodes where they are fighting multiple enemies instead of sitting around shooting one beam at a time at each other. Also, if Luke damaged the phaser from afar by say collapsing a ridge on Data with tk, then that would severely cut down on Data's offensive capabilities.
Also, I think that yes, one could make the argument that nothing known can affect the beam of a lightsaber. In the Star Wars universe, where the Jedi have been around for centuries, noone has yet used a blaster that shoots through it. One would have thought that after centuries of exposure to them, if it were possible to do so, it would have been done already.
Data is hardly the most intelligent character in the Star Trek universe. There have been many episodes where you hear the "I do not know, sir." in response to many questions. There are many entities out there, such as Q, or people on a less cosmic scale such as Bashere from DS9 or even Geordi (who regularly comes up with ideas that Data didn't think of), who have shown in certain situations to know more than Data does. If Data were this godly intelligence, then whenever they had any sort of problem, then they could just let him solve it. There are many concepts that humans take for granted that Data still cannot comprehend. He's still learning. Granted, he has a very powerful intellect, but nowhere near a level where he can just look at something, then build something out of almost nothing to counteract it (we leave that to MacGuyver).
I'm not saying that it would be impossible for Data to ever figure out how a lightsaber works and then come up with something to counteract it. What I'm saying is that I don't believe that Data can do so without any sort of analysis tools or a lightsaber to study for many hours. He's not going to just pop open the phaser, tweak a few things, and then suddenly make it shoot through a lightsaber.
Nighthawk
07/15/2004, 13:40
After reading 115 posts (I think about 100 of them were Esper3K) I vote Data.
Luke is not a full Jedi, that is agreed.
Data is incredibly adaptive. The phaser is a versatile weapon. No one knows if a lightsaber can deflect a phaser. On a wide beam setting, most people agree that it cannot. Data will win.
SpakSpang
07/15/2004, 14:20
Esper3k: Q is almost a God like character so yeah he is more intelligent. And Geordi is more intelligent as a plot device. He is human and can sometimes out think Data creatively. He can theorize better than Data basically and go on hunches.
Yeah, Data didn't know every single answer...but they are usually questions nobody knows yet, and they research to find him.
His brain doesn't forget, if he takes in knowledge or music or anything he can reproduce it perfectly without flaws...which is why his music and art is sometimes lacking it doesn't have the humanity as humans do.
Originally posted by Juggernaut146
Im going Data with this one. Datas just to smart for Luke, hell deffinetly figure something out. And also if Vader wanted to in the esb Luke couldve been dead in two seconds. As stated earlier Vader was just toying with him.
True, if Vader wanted Luke dead there he would have been so, but in the same token Vader DID want Luke frozen and returned to the Emperor, something this "novice beginner Jedi" managed to fight his way out of and escape. Now That says something.
Originally posted by WakandaMan
Okay, good call. But a lightsaber sized piece of metal isn't going to affect Data. If Data dropped his Lightsaber, Luke could TK it away. But he's certainly not going to TK it out of Data's super strong hands.
Actually, I wasnt referring to Luke TKing a piece of lightsaber sized piece of metal at Data, but him TK the metal and very similiar sized phaser out of Data hands. Which my above example proves he can do, even in the heat of battle.
Originally posted by bear42
Luke at the end of ESB is HARDLY just a kid with a lightsaber, as his battle with Darth Vader CLEARLY points out. It lasted quite a bit, even to the point where Vader says hes Impressed with what Luke can do.
Yes, I believe Vader said he was impressed right after he disarmed Luke's lightsaber. Plus, what else is a father going to say about his son! Like it or not, Vader was using kid gloves on Luke in that battle. If he was fighting anybody but his son, they would have been cut down in moments. It is only after Luke's glancing blow on Vader that Vader gets semi-serious. He decided to only take Luke's hand.
And second, the VERY first thing Obi Wan teachs Luke is how to deflect blaster fire with his eyes Blocked. You dont think in the past 3 or 4 years from ANH to ESB that hes been practicing that? We clearly see him as a PRO at this in ROTJ, which is only one year after ESB. Do you think he learned to deflect shots all in his last year, something he was taught on Day One of his training, something any other Jedi Padawan is a veritable expert at?
Objection, your honor! Assuming facts not in evidence. If Luke was so good at deflecting laser blasts, why was he holding the blaster in Cloud City? First Boba shoots at him and the best thing he can come up with is ducking out of the way. He didn't get out his saber. Second, a squad of stormtroopers start shooting at him. Once again he doesn't resort to the lightsaber. It is only when he confronts Vader that he gets out his saber. What he did in ROTJ is immaterial. Yes, he blocked laser bolts with ease in ROTJ. If he could even do it a little bit, he would have been doing it on Cloud City. Yes, Luke was a wrecking machine in ROTJ. No argument there. But he wasn't even close to that in ESB.
So you feel Vader was actually taking it easy on Luke at Cloud City because he was his son? He took it so easy on him that Luke managed to escape, making Vader look like a galactic chump? Im sorry, I can in no way believe this. He took is easy in the beginnger, because even he thought Luke was a novice, but as the fight went on he took it more and more seriously, realizing that Luke is NOT to be taken lightly. I Highly doubt any father/son feelings came out during the actual battle.
Also, Luke didnt use his lightsaber during this scenes when he first arrived in Cloud City because he was trying to SNEAK his way around, and NOT look for any confrontation (lets face it, a blaster pistol in your hand is alot quieter than the HUMMING lightsaber if youre trying to sneak). He didnt even return any fire when Boba was gunning for him, which of course was done simply to scare Luke since Boba knows full well Vader wants Luke alive. Again, since it was the FIRST thing he ever learned to do, taught to him 3 to 4 years earlier, and younglings routinely block blaster bolts Blindfolded, I highly doubt that Luke here would be unable to do so as well.
Originally posted by Grinner
Whether or not Data can disrupt the light saber is a moot point. The phaser can be set for wide-beam/area-effect which Luke cannot parry. No disruption needed, no unusual modifications to the phaser or wavelength needed.
So, why cant Luke just TK the phaser from Datas hand? He moved a similiarly sized piece of metal around, actually in mid fight with Vader, why could he not simply do the same here and negate Datas ranged advantage? This Luke has shown from the films themselves he can do this.
Data - 21 votes
Luke Skywalker - 18 votes
Both Round 4 matches will be OPEN until about this time tomorrow, so if you have voted or made your piece on EITHER, DO SO NOW.
The Movie MW TOC FINAL MATCH, will be up TOMORROW.
Originally posted by SpakSpang
Esper3k: Q is almost a God like character so yeah he is more intelligent. And Geordi is more intelligent as a plot device. He is human and can sometimes out think Data creatively.
Ah so Geordi's intellect is now merely a plot device, huh? I used examples such as Geordi and Bashere to illustrate how Data was not the most intelligent character in the Star Trek universe by a large margin. As your quote says, Geordi's being human allows him to outthink Data creatively. Luke, being a human, also has the potential to come up with some creative approach that Data, being a machine, would not be able to anticipate or compensate for well on the fly.
joedirt18
07/15/2004, 16:08
Luke
Originally posted by DTM
So, why cant Luke just TK the phaser from Datas hand? He moved a similiarly sized piece of metal around, actually in mid fight with Vader, why could he not simply do the same here and negate Datas ranged advantage? This Luke has shown from the films themselves he can do this.
Because Data is strong enough to lift several tons, so I don't see Luke plucking it out of his hand ;) Again, RoTJ Luke might be able to, but ESB Luke isn't pulling something with that much resistance out of Data's hand.
SpakSpang
07/15/2004, 17:35
Esper3k:
Your right. Luke's human mind is an advantage over Data for creative combat, and improvision. However, I do not think its enough of an advantage.
What I was meaning with Geordi is that he is smart and intelligent yes. But he doesn't have a computerized brain that doesn't forget anything. He is a human that knows his craft and has an instinct with it. Data doesn't usually run with that human instinct quality. However, I do wonder if he has been building one since the inclusion of the emotions chip, that allows him to potentially create hunches and 'feelings' for what should work without having definate support for it.
Well we don't know how functional Data would be after losing large parts of his body. If he took a hit to the torso, for example, I don't believe that he would be all that functional.
We've seen him take a fair amount of damage- Using his body in order to stop a massive power arc between two of the ship's power conduits was enough to fry it, but not his head. He's pretty well protected, at least his systems are isolated so that stuff to one part doesn't mess with the next too much.
If he lost an arm or a leg, he's definitely still in the fight. If he took a shot or two to the torso from a blaster, he'd probably lose some functionality but still be quite in the fight.
Esper3k answered his own question in his own post.
They cannot always use Data to his full potential in the show,
because it would be a case of the crew saying:
'Hey another problem to solve...Data!...sort it out.'
and the rest of the crew become irrelevant.
It stops being the crew of the Enterprise, and becomes the
Data show.
Doesn't Lukes hand get shot at the beginning of RotJ?
On Jabba's boat thing, near the pit, he gets shot in the hand,
reminding us all that he has a robot hand.
So even in RotJ he hasn't become that good at blocking
blaster fire, and I feel the need to point out (again) that a phaser != a blaster.
Phasers are far more versatile and powerful.
I think we all recognize that many things are done for the sake of plot. Just as Data isn't always asked to solve the problem every time, Luke was shot to show that he had a robotic hand, which would be relevant later on when he discovers that he is like his father in that respect.
Luke getting his hand shot was also at a time when he was in the heat of battle, surrounded by enemies, trying to cover his nearly helpless friends (although one questions whether or not Leia in her golden bikini was truly helpless as she did manage to kill Jabba and could umm... distract their opponents). However, there have been many instances when Data has been asked a question and rather than compute or deduce out an answer, he responds with "I do not know, sir."
Ugh, I hate to be a Wars AND Trek Fanboy.
Well, let's think about this logically...
Luke's constant high-pitched whining will fry a couple processors in Data's positronic net, rendering him combat ineffective.
Luke for the win.
Originally posted by Grinner
Because Data is strong enough to lift several tons, so I don't see Luke plucking it out of his hand ;) Again, RoTJ Luke might be able to, but ESB Luke isn't pulling something with that much resistance out of Data's hand.
No mights about it my friend, ROTJ Luke was a Jedi Knight, and would slaughter Data, in my humble opinion. :) ESB Luke v Data is a MUCH closer battle, as shown by the nearly even sided votes here.
Luke Skywalker - 19 votes
Data - 22 votes
Last Chance to vote all, the Final Match of the Movie TOC Middle Weights will be up TOMORROW.
Rokk_Krinn
07/16/2004, 02:45
DTM, I might be wrong but I'm seeing 21 votes for Luke, not 19.
A couple people did change their votes from Luke to Data, so that may be it.
This is the vote list I have. I actually counted Esperk and King twice at first glance, maybe you did too RK?
DATA
bluebeetle
Ignatz_Mouse
SpakSpang
NotYou
MSU
Grinner
PopeJ-rod
Avatar Jack
discombobulous
bear42
green_knight
StilettoHawaii
Q99
AEONFLUX
PirateRoberts
Silver Lantern
Goose
WakandaMan
Juggernaut146
guilex78
Nighthawk
Rando
LUKE SKYWALKER
schicantek
rouge2
Esper3k
Llark
Krellen
DTM
coyotejack
darthfatty
Rokk_Krinn
Agent_X
Maximcards
Mr_Clicky
Laenan
VandalSavage
mbufu
joedirt18
Darko
King
army_22
And Goose is right, we did have one or two people switch sides......TRAITORS!!! :p
Originally posted by DTM
we did have one or two people switch sides......TRAITORS!!! :p
Yes, switch sides to good clean logic :p :p
Eh, if Logic wins battles, Mr Spock would have cleaned up here easy. :) But since it doesnt, Ill go with Force powers and Lightsaber skills that even gave Darth Vader pause, thank you very much. :)
Prof. Aragorn
07/16/2004, 03:07
The only one who has a definate shot of beating Fett (or Li if all goes according to plan:devious: ) is Luke-who can deflect shots from a blaster and tk thermal detenators right back-however Data can't dodge area effect weapons or a huge arsenal-Data might get lucky depending on what he pulls for an arena-until then I vote LUKE SKYWALKER!
Silver Lantern
07/16/2004, 03:13
Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
The only one who has a definate shot of beating Fett (or Li if all goes according to plan:devious: ) is Luke-who can deflect shots from a blaster and tk thermal detenators right back-however Data can't dodge area effect weapons or a huge arsenal-Data might get lucky depending on what he pulls for an arena-until then I vote LUKE SKYWALKER!
So you're not voting based on WHO SHOULD WIN, but based on who can beat the guy in the next round?
That's just wrong. ;)
Rokk_Krinn
07/16/2004, 03:17
Whoops. Honestly, I'd just gone off of your earlier talley and adjusted votes based on posts since then...didn't realize some fiends had posted their votes twice. :)
Silver Lantern
07/16/2004, 03:22
Hey Rokk, some of us live in FL buddy! ;)
No matter who advances, I am just hoping to see a Bruise Breadbaker cameo in the finals. :p :grin:
Prof. Aragorn
07/16/2004, 03:34
Originally posted by Silver Lantern
So you're not voting based on WHO SHOULD WIN, but based on who can beat the guy in the next round?
That's just wrong. ;)
Well, as been stated before, someone voted Data since it was logical, but if Fett can beat Data, and Luke can beat Fett, Logically Luke can beat Fett-which is how I choose who wins in my opinion.
And besides, if Spider-man didn't win, Green Goblin, Predator, Alien Warrior, or even Mongo didn't win Luke was my "second" choice;)
SpakSpang
07/16/2004, 11:23
Actually Data would SO THRASH Boba Fett no contest.
Data lets Fett hit him Twice as he takes aim Shoots him in the head or takes out the Jet Pack. BOOM dead.
Period. The end.
Boba Fett will not go straight for the Thermo Detinator, which would be his only chance.
Data would also completely Thrash Lee. Hmmm...maybe I should change my vote to him. *LOL*
If Data advances to the final round against Fett, I think we might have a good battle, because while I will need to hear arguments from both sides, it will not be a "Fett takes off, blasts data to pieces, end game" as many people think. Its gonna be gadgets and experience versus computerized gadgets and experience...with the environment a HUGE factor.
One more thing for Data, his mind processes thing at a very, very fast rate. I remember a line from "First Contact" when he was dwelling on joining the Borq Queen. Picard asked him, how long was he considering it. It was like 1.18 seconds sir, "a lifetime for me". So, he is kinda quick thinking like that. :p
Well, no more additional vores since last night, my time, so it looks like camp Data, with a final score of 22 to 20, defeats camp Skywalker, and therefore advances to the FINAL MATCH against the greatest and deadiest bounty hunter in his universe, Boba Fett.
Give me a few minutes, and then Place Your Votes. :)
Originally posted by DTM
No mights about it my friend, ROTJ Luke was a Jedi Knight, and would slaughter Data, in my humble opinion. :) ESB Luke v Data is a MUCH closer battle, as shown by the nearly even sided votes here.
I was looking back over things and saw you had misinterpreted what I was saying. I agree that RoTJ Luke would lay the smackdown on Data. What the "might" in question was whether or not RoTJ Luke could pull the phaser out of Data's multi-ton grip (rather than, say, just ripping his arm off ;) )
DraXXXen
07/16/2004, 16:48
I'll vote data. Has far to many advantages over Luke at this point.
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