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View Full Version : Marquee Primer HeroClix A to Z – Legacy Marquee Primer: Part 2 – Rares & Uniques


AZS
02/22/2005, 10:25
Another set means another “Marquee Primer” review!
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WizKids posted these stats last week, and some lucky players were fortunate enough to get their hands on Legacy over the weekend at the Pre-release tournament.
For the rest of us, the Marquee is still several weeks away, but that doesn’t mean we can’t play in a few friendly sealed games before then.

This review will be posted in 4 parts:
Part 1 – Commons
Part 2 – Rares & Uniques
Part 3 – Cards
Part 4 – Super Rares

Today’s review looks at the Rares and Uniques.

Typically this is where I’d mention that the higher rarity figures tend to be the bigger hitters of the set. But with Power Girl as a “common” and other heavy hitters like Demon, Super Woman, and Sinestro in the mid range rarity, all bets are off.</td><td><img src="http://www.hcrealms.com/images/legacy/lg096.jpg"></td></tr></table>

click on comments below to read the review.

AZS
02/22/2005, 10:32
This portion of the Marquee Primer will look at the higher rarity figures and rate them based on how they may work with the rest of the Legacy set in a sealed tournament.


Standard Intro:
This review and rating system is for a 300 point, 3 booster Sealed event only. This doesn’t take into account how these may play in constructed and open format tournaments (where some might be better or worse.)

This review uses a star (*) rating system.

* Steer clear of this figure.
** Not so good. Should be considered with caution.
*** Fair. Based on how you need to fill out a team or have Wildcard options.
**** Good. Definitely consider this figure.
***** Great! Should be a top choice for your team.

There will be very few one or five star ratings here. So please realize that even though your favorite character might not get five stars like you think it should, I’m just trying to be fair.

Everything written here is in the most general form possible.
Since the specific combination of figures drawn in a sealed booster tournament work together to determine which are more playable than others.

Lastly, this review is just my opinion. And these are a lot of work to write, so I ask you very kindly, please don’t get angry at me for my ratings. I give reasonable explanations for each choice. If you disagree (and you are welcome to do so), please try to do the same.



Part 2 – Rares & Uniques


Blockbuster
105 – Suicide Squad / 117 / 136 – Batman Enemy
Blockbuster has an interesting progression. His rookie represents him as an unintelligent brute, getting stronger as he gets angrier. His latter versions show him as an intelligent crime boss, after selling his soul to the demon Neron for intelligence.
(In one great scene, Blockbuster laments how he was so dumb, all he could think to ask for was “Smarter.” And got smarter, but still looked deformed, whereas if he was just a tiny bit smarter at the time, he would have simply asked to be ‘normal.’)
The rookie is a solid contender in this format since you can put him into battle and he can take a few lumps. His Team Ability is also a good one to copy, since it offers just about the only option for healing in this set. Keep in mind that it requires someone to be adjacent to him in order to use it and his Battle Fury might make that difficult.
The Exp and Vet have an interesting and unique addition; Blockbuster is the only “brick” in the game with Outwit. (That I can think of at least.) His Exp has everything going for him, except that his AV is a touch low for his cost. Particularly with all the high defenses going around. Still, front end Outwit can be useful. And there’s no doubting that base 4 damage plus Super Strength with Charge can be a devastating combo.
The Vet is a bit better with his 10 AV, and he can borrow or lend his AV with other Bat Enemies or, more likely, Wildcards. (And keep in mind that with him on the team, Wildcards could then share AV’s with each other.)
For those of you scratching your head over his Probability Control, this probably represents his intelligence as a crime boss, able to plan for every contingency and his ability to operate in Bloodhaven as a known crime boss for so long and still manage not to get arrested.
R - **
E - ***
V - ***

Superboy
97 – Superman Ally / 106 – JLA / 127 – Titans
The rookie could be one of the figures everyone thinks they’re looking for thanks to the Superman Ally TA. However, at 97 points, it will be a tight fit to put Superboy on the team and a wildcard to take advantage of the team. If you’re lucky enough to pull R Superboy and Vet Wildfire, go to town. But Superboy helping out Jinx isn’t nearly as impressive. (or comic accurate – nootch!). As such, don’t put R Superboy on a team as a knee jerk reaction to his team ability.
In his own right, Superboy is just an OK fighter. His stats and powers are average, maybe a little low for nearly 100 points, and there are a lot of options around there so you might get lucky and pull someone better. Still CCE helps him stay dangerous in close combat after he’s used up an object.
R - ***
E - **
V - ***

Persuader
96 / 114 / 129 – Calculator (all)
Persuader could be one of the big break out hits of the set; both in sealed and constructed play. His starting click alone is golden – Charge and Exploit Weakness with a huge 4 damage and an attack value that can actually hit. Throw in other excellent characteristics like Invulnerability, a very deep dial and a variety of other powers, and he’s even better. Top the whole package off with Calculator wildcard TA, and he earns top marks. Exploit Weakness in particular will be a big hit in this set against so many Impervious figures (and the high number with Toughness and Invulnerability as well.)
The only trick in sealed play could be to actually get him within Charging range, since there are so many capable rangers in the set, many with Running Shot to boot.
R - ****
E - ****
V - ****

Captain Atom
105 / 147 – JLA / 154
AAAAHHHH!!! Yet another heavy hitter with an activation click!
I can’t speak towards the comic accuracy of that click, but as a Marquee player, the sheer number of them in this set will probably influence quite a few team selections.
On the other hand, it might also make your decision to pass on Rookie Cap Atom a little easier. After you get past his starting click, his first “good” click is really just kinda ‘ok.’ Yeah Running Shot, high damage and Impervious are good, but his 9 AV is a tad on the low side against the defenses you should expect to face.
He has an overall deep dial, and good damage, but hopefully you’ll get a better choice for around 100 points.
For a lot more points, the Exp is quite a bit better. His first activated click has higher numbers, and his JLA team ability could be useful to your wildcards. Still, weigh your options against all your other figures, because even the Exp doesn’t really shine in this format.
The Vet drops the Activation click, and looks like he offers a Superman-like dial for a Supergirl like cost. But he still can’t pull his AV above 10, which might be ok on a team where you can account for that drawback with Perplex or the Police TA, but here it’s just not good enough. In all likelihood, his 10 range will pass through hindering terrain, making nearly all of his attacks require at least and average roll of 7, and probably often an 8 or more. For the cost of over half your team, the Vet doesn’t quite cut it in this format.
R - **
E - ***
V - **

Major Force
95 / 114 / 130
Major Force and Captain Atom could make for some fun opposition in constructed games, but in a sealed Marquee format they’re both a little iffy.
Force’s rookie falls short due to Charge (instead of Running Shot) and a shorter ranged attack. He’s not bad for 95 points, but not really great either. His Exp has a pro and con compared to the Rookie; Running Shot is nice, but with only a base 3 damage and 6 range, he’s not going to run and shoot for much.
The Vet is a nicer version of the two, largely due to his increased range and 11 AV. Damage is still on the low side, but he’s got longevity and consistency for 130 points.
Force is actually very similar to Superwoman, but with range and without a terrifically useful Team Ability. (among other minor differences.)
R - ***
E - **
V - ***

Ra’s al-Ghul
74 / 91 – Batman Enemy / 108 – Batman Enemy
Ra’s is an interesting piece in that he offers both Ranged and Close Combat options. Ranged, not for his attack, but because of his Stealth and Outwit combo that can put a big crimp in your opponent’s strategy. Up close he has the benefit of Blades/Claws/Fangs so he can deal bigger damage than his base 2 attack. Willpower will be great for mobility so he can get in position for Outwit, or move and attack next turn without pushing. Mastermind later in the dial can also help keep him alive so your opponent doesn’t get his points, which are significant for this figure. Along that line, Ra’s is a little pricey for the limited offense he offers your team, and his point cost falls squarely in the range of so many other figures in this set that you’re more than likely to get a few options there.
R - ***
E - ***
V - **

The Joker
74 – Batman Enemy / 91 – Injustice League / 100 – Batman Enemies
I think the Joker is a contradiction of sorts – Which plays perfectly for the character.
The Joker could very well be one of the best comics -> clix transitions ever, but he’s also one of the most difficult figures to ever play in a sealed format. And as much fun as he could be on constructed teams, ultimately he gets low ranks here.
If you can play him, and manage to pull it off, props to you, but I can’t recommend that anyone put him on their team.
R - **
E - *
V - **

Batman
85 – Outsiders / 94 – JLA / 111 – Batman Ally
Batman is strong in every version in Legacy. Even his Rookie is useful thanks to several excellent powers and generally good stats. Starting with Outwit is nice, and 1 click in he gets the excellent combo of Charge and Exploit Weaknes. There’s a few more powers in there before he finishes with Outwit again. Be weary that he only has a single click of Stealth though, so if he’s pinged for 1 or critically misses, he’s fair game for your opponent’s rangers. Also keep in mind that the Outsiders TA can’t be copied by your wildcards.
His Exp steps it up a bit; Attack and Defense are up, and any wildcard teammates can copy the JLA team ability. Probability Control will also be a huge help for the whole team in hitting all the high defenses in the set (or vice versa for their own defense.) Outwit on the second click and a solid dial all the way down rounds him out nicely.
The Vet is the shining star of the bunch, and really a killer figure in any format. The biggest thing he brings to any team is his 12 AV, which will be key for hitting the 20 defenses of Flash or Green Lantern, and he’s the only REV in the set with that high of an attack. Additionally, he’s one of only 3 figures in the set with the Batman Ally TA, so your wildcards will definitely be fond of him. Basically, everything about the Vet is fantastic, and he’ll be one of the figures people whoop and holler about when they open their packs.
R - ***
E - ****
V - *****



Oracle
27 – Batman Ally
Typically, a figure like this would be a throwaway in several regards (not just in a Marquee.) Her big redeeming factor though is her Team Ability. With so many wildcards in the set, a cheap Batman Ally might find its way onto your team even if the figure can’t offer much else.
As part of your force, her Leadership may or may not be of any use. There are so many high point figures in this set, most teams will probably only be about 4 figures large. In that regard though, you may also end up with a 30 point hole to fill, and no other cheap figures to fill it. Leadership might also make up for the actions you use to push her onto her Outwit clicks. Don’t go too far though, you could end up using all your actions just to get her onto Perplex, and have nobody to use it on. Lastly, she can also make good bait, especially after you’ve gotten her onto her Outwit clicks.
As far as her feat card goes, don’t count on pulling her with her card. The likelihood is so slim as to not even be worth considering. While I’m sure someone somewhere will get this golden combo, it probably won’t be you.
U - ***

Hush
75 – Batman Enemy
While I think Hush could be a downright awesome figure for a Batman Enemy theme team, I don’t think he’s going to do much for anyone in this format. Leadership up front is kind of a non-issue, and by the time he gets to his better support powers he’s not as useful an attacker.
His best feature for this format is his Batman Enemy team ability that may allow your other figures to swap attack values. There also isn’t much stealth, or anti-stealth, in this set, so a mobile blocker might be of some value as well.
U - **

Wonder Woman
106 – JSA
The biggest draw for this figure is her JSA team ability and high defense. Sharing her 17 with the rest of the team could be a big bonus. The rest of her dial is fairly unimpressive. And even though she has a good charge attack up front and a lot of defense, she’s generally overshadowed by several other figures in the 100 point (or less) range.
U - **

Ares
275 – Mystics
Well, here’s an interesting conundrum, Ares really is a killer brick, with stats and powers to hold his own alone, in a 300 point game. But do you really want to risk it?
Typically a brick like this is susceptible to a swarm team, but a team like that is unlikely in this set because there are not many low point characters. There also isn’t a ton of front loaded Outwit to threaten his Impervious, though there is enough to make him a little nervous. His own Outwit and high combat values will also enable him to stand on his own.
The problem though is in action allotment, with only 1 figure on your team you’ll either have to move every other turn, or push. Pushing not only gives up a click of his high defense, but also the retaliatory click of damage your opponent would take from the Mystics TA. You’re also only getting 10 clicks for your 275 points, so every click is precious.
Because of this action allotment problem, Ares biggest drawback in this format is his lack of mobility. If he had Running Shot up front it would be completely different, but Phasing followed by Charge makes him slow moving and cumbersome to use. It also leaves him extremely vulnerable for several turns in a row every time he moves.
Another major consideration is points; if Ares is ever KOed, its pretty much a given that your opponent will win on points. So even if Ares can take out 3/4 of the other team, if the character that knocked him down is anyone other than Spoiler, you lose.
As such, he just flat out doesn’t work in this Marquee format. Even if you’re the one in ten thousand who happens to pull Ares and Fortitude, I’d still recommend going with another option.
U - *

Ultraman
242 – Crime Syndicate
Ultraman overcomes one of Ares major flaws; he has the mobility of Running Shot to start with. This makes him multitudes more useful as a one man army. Still, he is just a one man army, and as such he still suffers from action allotment – he can only act every other turn without pushing and giving up clicks of life to your opponent. Even if he can get in the first hit thanks to Running Shot, he’ll then end up sitting there for two turns open to retaliation, or push.
Another drawback is his Team Ability. As great as the Crime Syndicate TA is, it requires that you give an action to another teammate in order to use it. Since your team will probably consist of just 2 figures anyway, you may end up pushing Ultraman’s teammate just so he can use his TA.
As hard hitting as Ultraman is, he requires a bigger point game so he can be properly supported. The 300 point Marquee doesn’t work for him.
U - **

General Zod
236 – Superman Enemy
Blah blah blah – action allotment. Blah blah blah – too expensive.
Everything I just said about Ultraman and Ares pretty much carries over here too.
The big difference though is that you might be lucky enough to pull one or two other figures to fit on a team with Zod. And if you’re really lucky, you might pull Jinx to go along with Zod and actually get to use the Superman Enemy team ability! Also his high AV and Defense are almost worth the points, as is his very consistent dial. Still, he’s too pricey and his lack of Running Shot makes him too slow, so he just doesn’t fit in a 300 point sealed format.
U - **

Prometheus
107 – Calculator
Billed as the “anti-Batman,” Prometheus ends up looking very similar to the dark knight stat-wise. In general he’s a great piece for 107 points. All of his stats are high, and throughout the dial he has various different powers at different points so his function can change continuously. His defense and depth of dial are also very good for the points.
U - ****

Mongul
200 – Superman Enemy
Mongul is a hardcore beast of a figure. His damage and attack stats are huge, and his defense is impressive for nearly the whole dial. He starts with Phasing, which may be tough to use, but his high movement could help you get the jump on an opponent.
If you happen to pull a wildcard figure to go with him so he can use the Superman Enemy TA, then you’re in good shape. Otherwise you’re spending points on a team ability you can’t use.
At “only” 200 points, this is a big gun you can afford to put on a team and still have a little room left over. Although the mid to high cost of so many figures in this set means that you may not have a lot of choices about who to fill out the rest of the team with.
Still, with base 5 damage and good stats down the whole dial, Mongul will start off strong and you can even afford to push him a few times without losing too much power.
Even so, Mongul may play better on constructed teams that can help his mobility and make use of his TA. In the Marquee, who else you pull to go with him will pretty much determine if you can play him at all.
U - ***

Hawkman
115 – Kingdom Come
Hawkman will probably be one of the underdog achievers of this set. He doesn’t look like much at first, but his stats work well with his powers, and he stays very capable for well past half his dial. Running Shot and Charge are nice to start with, and the Kingdom Come TA could be good for your wildcards to copy as well.
All around, a very strong contender, even if he is overshadowed by the other Kingdom Come companions in this set.
U - ****

Red Robin
90 – Kingdom Come
Red Robin may very well be the most difficult figure to hit in the entire game. His Stealth and KC team ability work together to possibly keep people from getting near him at all, and if they do manage to attack him, Super Senses can still avoid it. All in all, most people will probably opt to just ignore him than go through the hassle of trying to hit him.
Besides his great defense, Red Robin has some capable offense as well. Outwit is always fun, and double target incapacitate is pretty cool too, especially backed by a solid Attack Value. And if Incapacitate isn’t right for the job, he also has a good base damage that can be split up between targets. RCE on the second click and Leap/Climb + Willpower + Outwit at the end of the dial help keep him very dangerous.
Plus there’s always the KC team ability for your Wildcards to copy.
U - ****

Flash
150 – Kingdom Come
This character has a few really strong pros and cons that make the decision to play him very difficult.
On the up-side, his 20 defense will be nearly impossible to hit by the majority of figures in this set. Even if they could get near him, since he’s very agile with his 15 movement. Outwit is always nice as well, and his deep dial with Super Senses at the end will help him survive a game.
The down-side is that despite his 12 attack value and high cost, Flash doesn’t bring much to your team offensively. Without Perplex around to bump his damage up, Flash is resigned to deal just 2 damage in an attack. Outwit could help him overcome Impervious, but positioning might be tricky to do that and still keep him out of harm’s way. Plus, any figure that has Impervious in the first place is going to take a long time to wear down 2 clicks at a time.
For the cost of literally half of your team the Flash doesn’t pull his own weight, and with so many other good figures at or below his cost, you’re more than likely to pull a better option with more offense. Even if that figure doesn’t have a sweet 20 defense.
U - **

Green Lantern
225 – Kingdom Come
Green Lantern is going to be hands down one of the most difficult figures to contend with in this Marquee. He will be the “Thor” of the Legacy set. Even despite his extremely high cost.
One of the big problems with Ultraman and Zod for their cost is action allotment: you’re putting all your points in a figure that can only act every other turn without giving up clicks of life to your opponent. GL is not only cheaper than those two, but thanks to Willpower he can act without pushing. His 20 defense is going to be nearly impossible to hit, that is if anyone can even get close enough to try without getting smacked by GL first. The REV figure with the highest attack value is Veteran Batman with a 12. Meaning even Bats will need an above average roll of 8 to hit GL, make it a 9 if GL is in hindering terrain. Everyone else will need a 10 or more!!
Running Shot and a 10 range will give GL sight on pretty much the whole board, and a standing shot with RCE will hit for 6. Double arrows lets GL can pick away at multiple targets and his high starting attack value means he’ll be more than likely to hit.
His dial is deep and consistent too, so even a decent hit won’t totally cripple him. Then more Running Shot and Defend at the end of his dial keep him dangerous and then tough to hit.
All around, this is the total package, and possibly one of the only 200+ point figures I will ever give a five star rating to. But frankly, if you pull GL and at least just one other halfway decent figure to pair him with, your opponents will all have a serious uphill battle to fight.
U - *****

Steel
128 – Superman Ally
The prospect of what this ‘giant’ figure can do in constructed games with Charge & Quake is very exciting. However, that cool combo may not play out all that impressively in the Marquee. For starters, with so many high cost figures, teams will probably only consist of 4 -5 figures, so the chances of pulling off a big Quake attack is slim. Besides that, many figures have Invulnerability or Impervious, so Quake would be completely ineffective against them.
However, despite her best combo being somewhat watered down here, she still has a lot to offer. A solid ranged attack for 4 damage is nothing to ignore, and as one of only 2 Superman Ally figures in the set, she’s uniquely able to attack stealthy figures. (and of course to lend the TA to your wildcards.)
As a close combatant, she can deal a lot of damage all the way to her last click, and as a ‘giant’ figure, her close combat range is increased to 2 squares away.
All that for only 128 points could be a big advantage on the right team.
E - ****

Alyksandyr
02/22/2005, 10:40
Great Review...

But i disagree with Ares. In a Sealed Format, Ares can easily rule the day.

sniksder
02/22/2005, 10:46
Nice reviews, love these primers....


AS for KC GL......took him down twice this past weekend, i will agree with the 5 stars for him, but he is easy to take down....

AlgertMan
02/22/2005, 10:50
sorry but ALOT of those i just can't agree with

Rook-superboy--is wasted points if you don't pull a good wildcard with range

Joker--great piece for sealed

Oracle--please, unless you pull InContact she easy picking

captain Atom--Exp getting a better rating that the Vet. please, the vet. doesn't have an activation click, the Exp. does, and your gonna sit there and say the exp. is better? just plain crazy

Steel--yeah, play her, by the time she gets close enough to do anything she'll be half dead, plus anyone who pulls a high defense piece can just sit there and attaqck her without ever getting hit

LeaLu
02/22/2005, 11:17
Couple of notes- Batman is not the only 12 attack on an REV- both E and V Joker have it near the end of their dial, combined with Outwit and 4 damage. No guarantees that either one will hit that click, but it's there. Additionally, for purposes of hitting those 19 and 20 defenses, the ONLY character in the set with an attack above 12 is Ares himself. That means no one but Ares has even a 50/50 chance of hitting a 20 defense without some Perplex, Probability control, or an appropriate feat. Ouch.

I also have to disagree on Joker's usefulness. As startling as it sounds, the E version, even despite Injustice League TA, would be a very good pull. Use his first-click Leap/Climb and his high protective defense to get into position and push to his second click, then whammo! You've got Batman. Stealth, 6-range double-arrow Incapacitate with an 11(!) attack, and 3 damage with outwit. Hit his next-to-last click and get him into the thick of things with Blades, Perplex and Mastermind. Just keep Masterminding the damage away until someone makes the mistake of hitting you for one, and then take it. Suddenly, Joker's on his beastly last click and should be able to do a truly horrendous amount of damage before he's KO'd.

webhead817
02/22/2005, 11:19
Algert, I would have loved to have pulled Oracle...there are so many wildcards to use that TA, and she's one of the cheapest figs in the set to boot. This format is so skewed in point costs that having someone that costs under 30 just sit in the corner and lend her TA and later on Perplex is huge. I saw many teams that were 30 to 40 points short simply because they had NO ONE small enough to fill the gaps...I'm sure many of those players would have loved to pull Oracle as well. :)

Gentlegamer
02/22/2005, 11:20
Originally posted by azs
Typically this is where I’d mention that the higher rarity figures tend to be the bigger hitters of the set. But with Power Girl as a “common” and other heavy hitters like Demon, Super Woman, and Sinestro in the mid range rarity, all bets are off. As webhead said, this set is "all killer, no filler!" :)

DarkCrisis
02/22/2005, 11:22
Steel has Range I believe meaning she can shoot back at those who shoot her.

Manchine
02/22/2005, 11:22
Pretty good review. Some Minor stuff I would change but nothing major.

bigkahuna83
02/22/2005, 11:24
Great Job as always Azs, info will be very helpful to me as i attend my First marquee.


And to Sniksder....I REALLY like your avatar:)
Rachael Ray is one tasty dish..I'm a BIG FAN:cheeky:

PaxZRake
02/22/2005, 11:25
I would Rate V Blockbuster probably a 4. He was crucial as the only figure I pulled that had a 10 attack. His front loaded outwit, combined with the possibility (the likleyhood) of doing 6 straight damage was great. Granted, I was able to back him up with V Stargirl and V Mr. Freeze, but it was blockbuster that really acted like the leader for those two.

I was able to take out V Peruader and V Wildfire with V Spoiler as back up, and KC GL thanks to a lucky 10 attack roll with a thrown light object (rolled a 1 to base).

Blockbuster is one of the few bricks (especially for a non-flier) that I've had really good success with, and I think that's due, in large part, to his excellent role as both front line attacker and multi-functional support piece.

lukebuchanan
02/22/2005, 11:26
I find it hard to believe that Flash would only rate a two. Granted I didn't go to any pre-releases :angry: .....(:laugh: ), but how for only half your army could he not hold his weight. An experienced player will have you trying to hit a 21 defense most of the time. He outwits for the remaining teammates, which even if you have several low cost or one to two high cost, will be a tremendous asset.............................mostly because he's so unhittable and it'll always be there. There aren't that many high attacks that you should worry about multiple high attack figs taking shots, you'll only have one or MAYBE two.

The rest you're dead on about, especially Ares. The whole action/push thing is something most players won't recognize, and use of actions is critical in this game.

Good work,

Luke B.

Crow
02/22/2005, 11:27
I'm going to have to disagree strongly with Joker's dismissal here... I won my 3 regionals sealed games on the strength of knowing his dial properly (I used the Vet) and by simply encouraging my opponent to hit him for just the right amount of damage to activate his best clicks. His front-loaded outwit (on the Vet) and high defense makes him playable, at least. Knowing the rest of his dial makes him worth his place on a team so long as there is another medium-sized heavy hitter.

eagletsi
02/22/2005, 11:28
Great Review. I can only hope a vet batman is in my future.

thugit
02/22/2005, 11:30
I totally agree with you on Ares, azs.


I saw 2 people try and use him with Fortitude and he got smoked both times. (With excellent players using him.)


I pulled Red Robin with Stunning Blow, which was almost unfair. He was a monster.....

Gentlegamer
02/22/2005, 11:32
Originally posted by azs
As great as the Crime Syndicate TA is, it requires that you give an action to another teammate in order to use it. Since your team will probably consist of just 2 figures anyway, you may end up pushing Ultraman’s teammate just so he can use his TA The Crime Syndicate team ability requires you give an action token to a friendly character with zero or one token. A friendly character is a character you control or is controlled by an allied player, so you could give the token to Ultraman, provided at the end of his main action he won't end up with three tokens.

EmperorNorton
02/22/2005, 11:33
Originally posted by webhead817
Algert, I would have loved to have pulled Oracle...there are so many wildcards to use that TA, and she's one of the cheapest figs in the set to boot.
I pulled her in the pre-release and she was more of a hindrance. But then I also had V Batman (and two wildcards), so her biggest advantage didn't add anything to my team.

Socko
02/22/2005, 11:34
Great review!


Man, Have I said how much I love this stuff?

Goose
02/22/2005, 11:35
Originally posted by Alyksandyr
Great Review...

But i disagree with Ares. In a Sealed Format, Ares can easily rule the day.

Only in the hands of a skilled player, there are so many people that i play with that would consistantly push him, giving me the easy win. The trick is to know who to go after and never ever push him.

thugit
02/22/2005, 11:35
I actually had Oracle AND her card....


If you pull the card, she's great. If you pull a lot of wildcards, she's decent and worth using. If you pull niether, she's point filler at best.


Flash and GL were surprisingly easy to take down from what I saw.

thugit
02/22/2005, 11:36
It's just like C-Note Supes in the Unleashed sealed stuff--if you have played one man teams before, give Ares a try. Otherwise, just be glad you pulled him!!!

Ignatz_Mouse
02/22/2005, 11:37
Re: Ares in sealed:

I agree, he's probably going down a lot of the time. But I did pull him with Fortitude, and I walked over my opponents, who could almost never hit him, and if they did, barely hurt him. And took a click themselves when they did.

Ares biggest problem, IMHO, isn't action alotment (he can afford to wait) but other Mystics. Facing a team with a Mystic and a wilcard (which is very likely) is going to make it hard for him, since as you note, every click is precious. In that scenario, your best bet is to hit the non-Mystics and wait it out. That could be tough.

Good call on Flash, too. Before the prerelease, I figured him to be *the* piece to pull-- but only doing 2 damage he needs outwit support. While there is some, it's also mostly easily dealy with (except Ares-- but he's not going to be on a team with Flash).

clixer11
02/22/2005, 11:39
Regarding Ares and KC Gl...

Talk about a case in opposing theories.

Some of us feel that neither figure is viable in this format.

Some of us feel both are.

Some feel just one is.

Dang.

From my personal experience, my "dream team" of E Sinestro, Red Robin (both Agents), R Talia, Stunning Blow and Trick Shot took down KC GL when RR hit with a 3 damage Stunning Blow with KB into a wall.

The game was over.

Funny thing is though, if it had been Ares that came over the results would have been "mostly" the same. Red Robin would have succeeded at Stunning Blow with Impervious Outwitted, and then Sinestro likely would have hit for 6 and for a total of 7 clicks done on Ares. I suppose he might have been able to survive to hit one of my figures after clearing, but not likely.

Gentlegamer
02/22/2005, 11:40
Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
Good call on Flash, too. Before the prerelease, I figured him to be *the* piece to pull-- but only doing 2 damage he needs outwit support. While there is some, it's also mostly easily dealy with (except Ares-- but he's not going to be on a team with Flash). Let's see how azs rates Flash with Armor Piercing . . .

AZS
02/22/2005, 11:42
Originally posted by thugit
I actually had Oracle AND her card....


If you pull the card, she's great. If you pull a lot of wildcards, she's decent and worth using. If you pull niether, she's point filler at best.Let me get this straight... you pulled Oracle and her Feat, and you got Red Robin with Stunning Blow?
What heroclix gods do you pray to, and can I have their e-mail address?


As for Oracle, all the points I made in the review are the ones I stand by. 27 point filler is useful. In all likelihood you'll pull at least 1 useful wildcard, and she makes excellent bait. Sacrificing 27 points so your opponent moves his figure into range is a fair trade. (Since his figure will likely be 2 - 3 times more than 27 points).
Her cheap stealthed Outwit (second click) is also very useful.
Sort of like an alternate universe Rookie Black Panther.

de4dp00l
02/22/2005, 11:42
I agree with most of your calls, but my one big beef is giving Flash 2 stars. With a 12 attack and 20 defense, all he really has to worry about on most pieces is the first click. Position him to get off an Outwit if they have Inv/Imp, tag them for 2, and aside from Ares, everyone in the set is going to need at least a 10 to hit him, 11 in hindering. Most pieces in the set will need an 11 or better to hit him. With those odds, you can afford to park Flash next to your opponent, clear, and roll HSS option #2, hitting for 4 damage, or picking away bit by bit. I don't think he's a 5, but Flash rates at least a 3, with a conditional 4 if you pull ICWO or Perplex. It's slow going, but he's next to impossible to actually hit.

SuperGENE
02/22/2005, 11:45
I would give Ares 4-5 stars. He's got the attack to hit anyone, he's really tough to hit, and even if you do pierce that 19 defense, your best attacker just took a click for doing it. That means he can break down Flash and GL without even making his attack roll on them (which isn't too difficult either). In sealed play, a decent player should be able to use him to mow down the competition.

Ultraman is a stinker worthy of no more than a single star. His paltry defense makes him a joke for anyone a fraction of his cost to hit, and then his attack value doesn't justify his cost. Yeah he gets PC but it's not gonna help that much when you need to roll a 9 or 10.

Other than that, the review was a pretty good read. Nice job!

AbeSapien
02/22/2005, 11:45
I have to disagree with your assesment of KC flash. He is so hard to hit that the only damage I took with him during the premiere was from pushing and crit misses. I know that you haven't gotten to feat cards, but I pulled armor piercing with him and he destroyed entire teams by himself. and considering the number of super senses and willpower figures, that 2 damage will be enough to take out a fair amoutn of the other teams opposition and there always outwit to handle the bricks.

Ignatz_Mouse
02/22/2005, 11:46
Oops: Flash has his outwit and still has issues. When facing him, I had stealth outwit (not unexpected is this set) and Outwitted his HSS or Outwit as appropriate. His Outwit is nto as useful because to use it, you need to have 10 square LOF, nuethering his biggest advantage-- teh ability to attack from around a corner and then run away.

Outwit Flash's HSS and he's just 150 points of shield for the rest fo teh guy's team.

thugit
02/22/2005, 11:48
Originally posted by azs
Let me get this straight... you pulled Oracle and her Feat, and you got Red Robin with Stunning Blow?
What heroclix gods do you pray to, and can I have their e-mail address?



Heh.


Red Robin had Armor Piercing, too--just in case someone had Fortitude!

Gentlegamer
02/22/2005, 11:50
Originally posted by thugit
Heh.


Red Robin had Armor Piercing, too--just in case someone had Fortitude! Red Robin makes a nearly perfect stand-in for Dr. Mid-Nite . . . he even looks like the doctor!

AZS
02/22/2005, 11:50
Abe's and Ingnatz' posts pretty much exemplify the opposing views people can have of the same figure.

I laid out my argument, dealing 2 clicks at a time, I don't think Flash justifies half the cost of your team in a sealed event.

However, I love him as a figure, and if I do pull him I'll just count myself lucky and start planning my 500 points teams with him as a key piece. But I don't think that will happen. In the last 6 expansions, I haven't pulled any of the really good Uniques.

BTW, anyone want a Crimson Cowl or Mimic?

Anyone?

Ignatz_Mouse
02/22/2005, 11:57
I will grant KC Flash this: With that defense, you could conceivably park him next to somebody and use HSS Option #2 on them. But still, an unlikely use against anybody but a low-AV brick (which, granted, there are a few).


Flash is hard to value highly when one outwit makes him that useless. Outwit aplenty in this set.

DarkCrisis
02/22/2005, 11:59
Originally posted by azs


BTW, anyone want a Crimson Cowl or Mimic?

Anyone?

Don't you be dissing my Calvin! Him and Blink will mess you up, man!

Mmmmm Exiles....

AbeSapien
02/22/2005, 12:10
I think my remarks came off as rather snarky, I apologize. It might have helped that I also pulled the sinestro SR for tk and the Rookie Talia for some mobile blocking terrain. No one even saw flash half the time.

Originally posted by azs
Abe's and Ingnatz' posts pretty much exemplify the opposing views people can have of the same figure.

I laid out my argument, dealing 2 clicks at a time, I don't think Flash justifies half the cost of your team in a sealed event.

However, I love him as a figure, and if I do pull him I'll just count myself lucky and start planning my 500 points teams with him as a key piece. But I don't think that will happen. In the last 6 expansions, I haven't pulled any of the really good Uniques.

BTW, anyone want a Crimson Cowl or Mimic?

Anyone?

DaLuvster89
02/22/2005, 12:16
Hey, I could use that Mimic! :)

Great write-up, azs. These are definately my favorite formats that you do. Bieng an "at home" player, I usually only play the Vet version of figures, but these reviews help me to see qualities in the R/E versions that I might overlook.

Thanks!

Mister J
02/22/2005, 12:26
I disagree with Ares if only because hitting his 19 is so hard.

I fought a GL at the pre-realease and it was ugly. I had an E Superwoman get TKed up so she could charge him for the first hit. I got 2 tries with her CSA but still needed a 10, and didn't get it. I failed Impervious on his hit back and that was all she wrote. I never had a real chance against GL, and this with a team that never lost a fig in any of my other matches. Just BRUTAL.

Gentlegamer
02/22/2005, 12:26
In the prerelease, E Captain Atom was surprisingly good. Once activated, that 15 range Running Shot with 4 damage is great. He has 17 defense with Impervious, and he has Super Strength, so substitue a light object token for the desk and it gets hairy.*

*Not a reference to hair10. ;)

raphael76
02/22/2005, 12:28
All this is strictly based on my experience at the pre-release. Most teams, the most figures you saw on a single team were 4. So many pieces are so expensive, that it just isn't possible to assemble a low point, high fig count team. You're mostly looking at fielding 3-4 figs, and doing the best you can with those. And action allotment can still make a big difference. Just depends on pulls. KC GL was a beast for me since I was the only one who pulled one. I also pulled a Prometheus, so I had a big debate on my hands. Still, I figured I couldn't NOT play GL, so I grabbed him, a Rookie Mr. Terrific, and Armor Piercing for GL, and ran with it. So I had 2 guys with willpower running around the board. For my first 2 games, GL went untouched. No one could hit that 20 defense (21 since I pretty much always kept him in hindering). Thing is, I knew that a lucky roll could spell disaster for me. And I hit that in the third round. Guy needed an 11 to hit me and got it with V Wildfire. I was pretty much on the ropes after that. Still, I'd take GL any day. I constantly kept hearing, how am I gonna hit that 20 defense. And he's much more of a threat than the Flash, simply because the base 4 damage with RCE is soooo intimidating.

So I pretty much have to agree with azs on GL, and Flash for that matter. Ares I just don't know. With all the outwit in the set, getting past his defense wouldn't be too hard, and his 19 is tough to crack, but there's also enough prob control to help out with that as well. You just can't push him, and that's his biggest downfall compared to GL.

On a funny side note, I played a pick up game with some guys who were all waiting around for the constructed part to finish. It was 4 on 4, and my team all decided to play KC pieces. So the other guy brings Thor. Decides to perplex up Thor's range and attack and he's gonna nail GL. The guy then proceeds to make some kind of electrical charging noises while holding his hands out like he's holding the big hammer. Of course, I'm thinking "what a tool", but accepting I'm gonna get nailed. and the guy after all this big buildup, rolls a critical miss. I don't think I've ever seen a man look so defeated and taken such delight in the look on his face. Just had to share that.

Ghost_Rider
02/22/2005, 12:30
I also disagree about Joker simply because practically every one of his clicks is useful. It doesn't matter if you depend on something or not, he can always offer something to the team and can really throw a wrench into your opponents strategies if you get lucky.

As for Ultraman, he becomes a lot more playable in sealed if you happen to get a pog or two. This way you can have some decent support, and a bystander to use the actions to give Probability Control.

PANZER
02/22/2005, 12:39
Still ... from three packs, you will play with the cards youre given ... I would play ZOD even if it was graded as an * cuz the probability of the rest of the figures I opened have a good combination is low.

I even risk to say that, if you havent opened TK or at least two decent 8 ranged figs, stick with the big gun you opened.

Ghost_Rider
02/22/2005, 12:41
Originally posted by raphael76
On a funny side note, I played a pick up game with some guys who were all waiting around for the constructed part to finish. It was 4 on 4, and my team all decided to play KC pieces. So the other guy brings Thor. Decides to perplex up Thor's range and attack and he's gonna nail GL. The guy then proceeds to make some kind of electrical charging noises while holding his hands out like he's holding the big hammer. Of course, I'm thinking "what a tool", but accepting I'm gonna get nailed. and the guy after all this big buildup, rolls a critical miss. I don't think I've ever seen a man look so defeated and taken such delight in the look on his face. Just had to share that.

Thor has been a curse for me ever since my Clobberin' Time marquee. Everyone thought the tournament was mine when I got experienced Thor and everyone else ended up with mediocre stuff. Unfortunately, the clumsy oaf critically missed THREE TIMES! It just goes to show that anything can happen, even with guys who seem unbeatable.

Bladej
02/22/2005, 12:41
First, I'd like to say that the odds of pulling Ares and Fortitude (or any specific feat card) in a sealed game is 3/542. :eek: ....I had a lot of free time at work one day.

I agree with every fig except Ra's al-Ghul, Joker, Ares, Ultraman, and General Zod.

I won't get into the ares dicussion, since that has about 5 threads already, but Zod? Why shoot down the general? He's a close combat beast only, but he's playable.

One note about the high point characters: fear is an amazing tatic. ;) I can't tell you how many times teams have rushed characters like Sentinel and Giant Man thinking "KILL IT!" ....they have their uses, is all I'm saying.

Mister J
02/22/2005, 12:41
I would personally play E Joker in a heartbeat, especially if I had TK, and ESPECIALY with armor piercing. E Joker is the only peice in the set to start with Poison, and if you can get him up to a Flash, or a GL, or an Area if you have AP you can damage them without needing to hit. Also good for Red Robin and Prometheus with their Super Senses.

Gentlegamer
02/22/2005, 12:42
Originally posted by raphael76
On a funny side note, I played a pick up game with some guys who were all waiting around for the constructed part to finish. It was 4 on 4, and my team all decided to play KC pieces. So the other guy brings Thor. Decides to perplex up Thor's range and attack and he's gonna nail GL. The guy then proceeds to make some kind of electrical charging noises while holding his hands out like he's holding the big hammer. Of course, I'm thinking "what a tool", but accepting I'm gonna get nailed. and the guy after all this big buildup, rolls a critical miss. I don't think I've ever seen a man look so defeated and taken such delight in the look on his face. Just had to share that. This is the best prerelease battle report I've heard yet!

Painreliever
02/22/2005, 12:50
I pulled oracle in the sealed part of the prerelease and I am pretty sure she died all 3 rounds, but I always pushed her to get to outwit so my E Batman could get in a first shot and then E Superwoman could play cleanup. Those two tag teaming made short work of any one figure. And even if I only got 1 outwit in to take out that first click of impervious its worth it to me if I can take their main attack piece out of the game in one round.

Yesterday I pulled a KC Flash and armor piercing, R Jade, and E Kid Quantum, Harvey Bullock pog which I played, but I played armor piercing on Kid Quantum...which was a pretty bad decision on my part. I actually had a lot of good pieces to play with that could have been annoying. I had pulled V Sinestro, V Persuader, V Blockbuster, a V and E Kid Flash/Impulse. In the end I decided to play Flash and the others but the others got wiped out very quickly in each game, while it was always flash trying to take out full teams. 1st game I managed to kill a V Obsidian, V Wildfire mystic team...which was a real exercise with just Flash. In the end I lucked up with a crit on Wildfire to make things go faster and then had to pull a hypersonic flurry attack to get past his last click impervious. Flash was on his last click. I also beat a Green lantern/E Mr Freeze team which basically came down to who hit first...I missed, then he missed, I cleared, He cleared, Then had to take out the barrier from E Freeze. He then moved into position to attack and blocked line of sight from Flash with Freeze. So I killed freeze off with my other figs then outwitted the willpower, He decided to push to try to hit and missed, then it was all downhill from there as Flash landed his next attack and the rest of the people laid into him. I lost to a R Jinx, E Stargirl, V Persuader, E Enchantress and a pog. I got wiped out and the only points I got were his pog when he pushed it to use Suicide Squad to heal Jinx. My dice just hated me that game...whatever I needed I rolled one under every attaack...only hit one attack all game. Still got 4th palce overall and 3 extra boosters which got me a U Zod so I was still pretty happy about it.

JPV>BW
02/22/2005, 12:52
Joker + Lazarus pit is EVIL.......

Painreliever
02/22/2005, 13:02
BladeJ wrote:

I won't get into the ares dicussion, since that has about 5 threads already, but Zod? Why shoot down the general? He's a close combat beast only, but he's playable.

He's not that bad from range either...a 10 range with 4 damage is pretty good. and with 3 clicks of 4 damage and 12/11/10 attack he can definitely hurt you big from range as well. He IS a close combat beast and is doing anywhere from 4-7 clicks of damage on his first 8 clicks, and with the 6 range charge for 2 clicks if he puts in the first hit not many people will be able to run far enough away to escape that charge.

secretwarrior
02/22/2005, 13:23
WOW tuesday reviews are cool!

Anyway, all points well taken AZS. I think I could do good with Ultraman and Zod in a 400 pointer, but for a 300 point sealed? ehh, I'll pass them up.

can't wait to get KC Flash to try him out. Not sure if his outwit will work considering he has to use it before HYPSPEED, but his 20 defense will make me throw him in the fray!!!

thugit
02/22/2005, 13:28
I think Zod could be OK if you had another Superman Enemy or Wildcard. He can take you apart from range, and he can MURDER you up close. If he has outwit, all the better.


In constructed games, he'll be a bear.

superfriend
02/22/2005, 13:51
KC Flash vs KC GL. I faced this matchup twice during the prerelease. KC GL(225), E Impulse(59) w/Armor piercing(10) was my entire team. In the first round, KC Flash got in the first attack. Down 2 clicks, my KC GL now had an attack of 10. I hesitated, could I hit the 20 def now? I went for another easier piece instead. KC Flash hit me again for another 2 clicks. That was the game. I couldn't roll high enough to hit him. But I did take out the rest of his pieces.

In round 3 I faced a second KC Flash. Having faced him before, I knew it was first strike that counted. Somehow I got in that first strike - I think my opponent missed or forgot I had willpower. Running Shot around his blocking piece for 4 damage. That was it.

One thing I learned during my second battle was why my opponents basically ignored the 69 points of Kid Flash. He explained that unless he could take out KC GL, being so much of my force, there was no way he could win the round if he didn't. So he kept attacking KC GL, even when he needed a critical hit to make it. Even his pogs attacked KC GL.

So I would definitely play either again if I pulled them. But some probability control to back them up would definitely help.

adamical
02/22/2005, 14:37
V Joker is 100 points, not 108.

Good review.


[Fixed. Thank you. ~azs]

secretwarrior
02/22/2005, 14:59
Oh and personally, I like the E Batman ALOT. just having a PC person for a JLA theme team is too cool. E batman from hypertime is still useful despite the monsterous new bats V!

In sealed, I would think PC would be a boon, but I guess a four star rating is proper.

One thing I also noticed: usually the high point U's are highly sought after. However, in Legacy, Oracle seems to be as sought sfter (if not moreso) than many of the high enders.

I used to dread pulling Mimic or Silver Swan, but I'd love an Oracle!

X-Inferno
02/22/2005, 16:32
I can't dissagree more about Ares... I'm sorry but he deserves more than 1 star. I saw numerous Ares teams go 2 and 1 during the qualifying rounds, and in the reflight, it came down to 2 Ares teams for 1st and 2nd place!
I know kid pulled ares and went 0-3 with him, but he was about 8 years old.

The bigest mistake people make with Ares, is first off, not picking up a desk... the second is pushing off that first click, when it's not necesary.

I think that Ares in the right hands is a 5 star rating... so to average it out, I think he deserves at least a 3 azs!

Every thing else was great, I realy like the prometheus figure, especially is you pull V Batman to go with him!

artyboy
02/22/2005, 16:52
Flash was a beast. All that a Flash player has to do is carry his highest point grounded fig with him and pick off the other guy's smaller figs. I almost lost to that tactic in the second round but my opponent miscounted how far Superwoman could charge one round. He couldn't handle the soda machine upside the head.

The round after that I got to experience the power of the new Batman. Superwoman hit Batman for 7 early on...knocking him onto l/c with outwit. I couldn't get close to him after that. A lucky hit with Jinx on Superwoman was all it took and the game was over for me. As nasty as Superwoman with fortitude is, she doesn't hold a candle to jinx and lucky rolls.

Answerman
02/22/2005, 17:01
The Ares figure was extremely effective at the pre-release in LAcey WA.

The second flight was won by a solo Ares, and nothing else.

So i'm giving the fig full points myself...

AZS
02/22/2005, 17:01
Originally posted by X-Inferno
I can't dissagree more about Ares... I'm sorry but he deserves more than 1 star. I saw numerous Ares teams go 2 and 1 during the qualifying rounds, and in the reflight, it came down to 2 Ares teams for 1st and 2nd place!
I know kid pulled ares and went 0-3 with him, but he was about 8 years old.I can't imagine any scenario where Ares can win a Marquee. Yeah someone might get lucky in one game, even two, but by the third game you're facing off against another player who has also gone 2-0, and Ares can't win against a good player with a good team.

It really does come down to the actions. If Ares wants to do anything, he has to move out onto the board. And as you stated, people make the mistake of pushing with him. So if you don't make the 'mistake' of pushing then instead you're sitting there for two turns while the other team has his way with you.

And anyone dumb enough to throw a figure into Ares range and allow Ares to get a free shot on him deserves to lose.

The bigest mistake people make with Ares, is first off, not picking up a desk... the second is pushing off that first click, when it's not necesary.The desk is such a ubiquitous thing that everyone says. Its up there with the likes of Outwit for how often its brought up (like its the most obvious thing in the world.)
What basically everyone fails to mention is that the desk is destroyed the first time the character is even targeted with an attack. I don't have to have a chance in hell of hitting Ares with a 21 defense, but as soon as I roll for the attack (and presumably miss), the desk is destroyed. Ares is back to his regular 19 defense. Presuming I use a cheap stealther to make the attack, Ares doesn't have any recourse to strike back either.

CaptainCanada
02/22/2005, 17:04
GL, I found, has something of a glass jaw. One hit on him, suddenly, he has an average 16 defense and something like 8 attack. Ares I took down in one turn in a game after wards. Superwoman+Sinestro+Obsidian=A Dead War-God. :)

raphael76
02/22/2005, 17:13
I think azs is absolutely correct. Ares might get a victory, maybe even 2, but eventually he's going to run into a team that can capitalize on his lack of mobility and actions, and they're going to tear him apart. Outwit is a dime a dozen in this set. Not to mention there are some very solid incapacitate pieces in here who can even negate his Mystic ability. Sure they'll have a rough time hitting him, but all you need is to get one solid hit in with a bigger gun to drop his D down, then you just incap him. Or use some Psy Blast to cut through his defense if you have one of those. End of story.

Originally posted by azs
I can't imagine any scenario where Ares can win a Marquee. Yeah someone might get lucky in one game, even two, but by the third game you're facing off against another player who has also gone 2-0, and Ares can't win against a good player with a good team.

It really does come down to the actions. If Ares wants to do anything, he has to move out onto the board. And as you stated, people make the mistake of pushing with him. So if you don't make the 'mistake' of pushing then instead you're sitting there for two turns while the other team has his way with you.

And anyone dumb enough to throw a figure into Ares range and allow Ares to get a free shot on him deserves to lose.

The desk is such a ubiquitous thing that everyone says. Its up there with the likes of Outwit for how often its brought up (like its the most obvious thing in the world.)
What basically everyone fails to mention is that the desk is destroyed the first time the character is even targeted with an attack. I don't have to have a chance in hell of hitting Ares with a 21 defense, but as soon as I roll for the attack (and presumably miss), the desk is destroyed. Ares is back to his regular 19 defense. Presuming I use a cheap stealther to make the attack, Ares doesn't have any recourse to strike back either.

Grinner
02/22/2005, 17:14
Originally posted by JPV>BW
Joker + Lazarus pit is EVIL.......

Amen to that!

My only loss in the pre-release was to a team that had an exp. Joker with a Lazarus Pit. Joker was the first figure killed, but when he came back with that 18 defense after all of my figures were hurt...

And that upfront Poison with that huge Leap/Climb :surprised

Ghost_Rider
02/22/2005, 17:16
Originally posted by CaptainCanada
GL, I found, has something of a glass jaw. One hit on him, suddenly, he has an average 16 defense and something like 8 attack. Ares I took down in one turn in a game after wards. Superwoman+Sinestro+Obsidian=A Dead War-God. :)

True, but it's all about positioning. If he goes straight into the center of the map, he's just asking for trouble. But if he moves into hindering and is in an area that he can't be surrounded, he's tough to bring down.

Ignatz_Mouse
02/22/2005, 17:28
Actually, the desk is only destoyed if you choose to use it for defense. Park with it on some hindering so you have a 20 until you need it.

Asz, what you are missing, and what was clear from the pre-release, is that *everyone* was at some sort of action deficit. The most figures I saw on any team was 5-- and that was unusual. Some of the standard old saws about team choice don't apply to this set, thanks to the small number below 50 points.

I don't think Ares is likely to win without Fortitude-- but with it, he's pretty nasty. Park on a rooftop away from the edge and let your opponent take the first shot, which he's likely to miss. Then hit. Poof, one character who probably can't his his defence any longer. Fortitude is to make sure any lucky hits aren't critical.

As far as stealthers go-- avoid them, or base them.

Ares in contructed is dead meat. In sealed, he has a decent chance, especially if nobody pulled a KC GL. The other big bricks are themselves not likely to win a marquee, and wil probably be avoided, or played by less-skilled players.

rotru
02/22/2005, 17:48
Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
Asz, what you are missing, and what was clear from the pre-release, is that *everyone* was at some sort of action deficit. The most figures I saw on any team was 5-- and that was unusual. Some of the standard old saws about team choice don't apply to this set, thanks to the small number below 50 points.

I'm somewhat reassured to hear you say what I have been thinking. I was not able to go to the prerelease tourneys, but studying the stats intently made me come to that exact conclusion. I'm glad it wasn't just me.

This is probably the aspect of this set that will take the most getting used to for me, at least in sealed. I am a huge proponent of spreading out points, and making sure I have enough figures to use all my actions after taking a hit. It looks like that strategy will be difficult with this set. Still, it must make for some quick, brutal games, eh?

lewdew
02/22/2005, 18:41
I had a vet joker on my sealed team and he worked out great. I just ran up,outwit,then run shot with my exp arsenal.
You gotta leave him on the first click and make sure he is on hindering terrain.

GroovyBoy
02/22/2005, 18:53
Originally posted by lewdew

You gotta leave him on the first click

This is a good strategy for the majority of clix...

shock man x
02/22/2005, 18:54
Originally posted by azs
Abe's and Ingnatz' posts pretty much exemplify the opposing views people can have of the same figure.

I laid out my argument, dealing 2 clicks at a time, I don't think Flash justifies half the cost of your team in a sealed event.

However, I love him as a figure, and if I do pull him I'll just count myself lucky and start planning my 500 points teams with him as a key piece. But I don't think that will happen. In the last 6 expansions, I haven't pulled any of the really good Uniques.

BTW, anyone want a Crimson Cowl or Mimic?

Anyone?

You could be like the guy I had during the Ultimates Marquee that pulled two Cowls. :confused:

I don't seem to pull uniques in Marquees, last one I played in though was Unleashed.

thugit
02/22/2005, 19:00
Actually, the desk is NOT destroyed by the first attack.


You get to choose to use it like that.

Answerman
02/22/2005, 19:01
Originally posted by azs
I can't imagine any scenario where Ares can win a Marquee. Yeah someone might get lucky in one game, even two, but by the third game you're facing off against another player who has also gone 2-0, and Ares can't win against a good player with a good team.


what you seem to be ignoring is that ARES DID WIN!!!!!


i don't mean to get "loud", but you've been told a few times now that ARes DOES work, and its been proven!

there were 92 people at the LAcey event, so it wasn't just some fluke.

You need to look at the evidence, and re-think your opinion dude...

thugit
02/22/2005, 19:03
That's a weak arguement.


I was at a Pre-Release and Ares lost several times.

Does that mean you need to re-think your opinion, dude?

;)

Answerman
02/22/2005, 19:16
I'm sorry I don't recall saying at any point that Ares is unbeatable or couldn't loose.

So why would I change my opinion when I haven't even presented one?

Of course he can be beaten!

i'm simply referring to Azs statement:

"I can't imagine any scenario where Ares can win a Marquee."

so since Ares did win, and without any support at all...how is my arguement weak?

Azs is making a statement that suggests its practically impossible for Ares to win, yet its happned, and it wasn't isolated to one player either.

For that matter when he says "i can't imagine" its ignoring the simple fact that he doesn't have to imagine Ares winning at a marquee, its the same format as a Marquee, so its alredy, in effect, happened.

no imagining nessassary...

thugit
02/22/2005, 19:19
Maybe you missed the smiley face.


You said that he should change his opinion because of YOUR experience. I asked if you should change yours because of MY experience.


You posted a silly statement and I teased you about it...that's about it.

Answerman
02/22/2005, 19:25
I provided facts, and its a silly statement?

Seems like we have vastly different opinions of what "silly statements" are...

:grin:

Teron_Gorfiend
02/22/2005, 19:26
Originally posted by Answerman
what you seem to be ignoring is that ARES DID WIN!!!!!

Wow. How'd that happen? Those must have been some really good matchups for that player, or his opponents could'nt roll worth carp. Even with all the high priced figures Ares should have had at least 2 to 1 odd against him.



i don't mean to get "loud", but you've been told a few times now that ARes DOES work, and its been proven!

there were 92 people at the LAcey event, so it wasn't just some fluke.

You need to look at the evidence, and re-think your opinion dude...

Eye witness testimony doesnt count as evidence (simply due to the fact that false memories can be planted). Unless we actually see the winner's certificate for a factory set, its all eyewitness testimoney. You sure you want to use the word evidence?

Wolverine_Hulk
02/22/2005, 19:26
From your reviews this would be a good team
V Spoiler 22
R Enchantress 60
V Jinx 54
E Persuader 114
V Ravager

thugit
02/22/2005, 20:04
Originally posted by Answerman
I provided facts, and its a silly statement?

Seems like we have vastly different opinions of what "silly statements" are...

:grin:


So did I.


You're missing the point, so I'll move on.

Answerman
02/22/2005, 20:40
Originally posted by Teron_Gorfiend

Eye witness testimony doesnt count as evidence (simply due to the fact that false memories can be planted). Unless we actually see the winner's certificate for a factory set, its all eyewitness testimoney. You sure you want to use the word evidence?

What so you're suggesting that I was hypnotised or lied to ?


Wow you guys really are having a hard time with the fact that Ares alone won a tournament!

And Thugit, I get your point just fine.

And yes I am presenting eveidence, theres about 50 witnesses to it.

And why in the name of all thats sane would I lie any ways?

It wouldn't be long before I shown to be lying as I'm sure some are going to join in and assure you all that I'm not simply making this up....

Teron_Gorfiend
02/22/2005, 20:53
Originally posted by Answerman
What so you're suggesting that I was hypnotised or lied to ?

Not really, no.


Wow you guys really are having a hard time with the fact that Ares alone won a tournament!

Well I'm not saying its not possible, its just a little hard to believe. Thats all.


And yes I am presenting eveidence, theres about 50 witnesses to it.

Really? Did you catch it on camera? Can you show us the winner's certificate? I believe the anwser to both of those are no. Eye witness testimony is too scetchy to be considered reliable evidence. If it was we'd have alot more people in jail.

And why in the name of all thats sane would I lie any ways?

It wouldn't be long before I shown to be lying as I'm sure some are going to join in and assure you all that I'm not simply making this up....

I didnt say you lied. You put words in my mouth. I dont doubt that there's a possiblility of Ares winning, and the person playing him just got lucky.

Anyway I was just being a smarty pants with the evidence thing :rolleyes:

Answerman
02/22/2005, 21:02
Originally posted by Teron_Gorfiend
Not really, no.




Well I'm not saying its not possible, its just a little hard to believe. Thats all.




Really? Did you catch it on camera? Can you show us the winner's certificate? I believe the anwser to both of those are no. Eye witness testimony is too scetchy to be considered reliable evidence. If it was we'd have alot more people in jail.

Actually Glutton getting his factory set IS on camera.
but you're in the wrong when you state that Eye witness testimony isn'y evidence.
Its used all the time, and when you've got as many people as were there....




[/B][/QUOTE]
I didnt say you lied. You put words in my mouth.

[/B][/QUOTE]

No i didn't, I i gave three options, that i'm either lying, lied to, or hypnotised...
Watch them accusations, and pay attention to whats typed...


[/B][/QUOTE]
I dont doubt that there's a possiblility of Ares winning, and the person playing him just got lucky.
[/B][/QUOTE] [/B]

Or maybe, heaven forbid, hes a great player...

[/B][/QUOTE]
Anyway I was just being a smarty pants with the evidence thing :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

fair enough eye roller...

Teron_Gorfiend
02/22/2005, 21:17
Hmmm. After re-reading my first response, I see nowhere that I implied that you were a lier. You tried to prove that eyewitnesses work as evidence. I tried to prove you wrong (though the way I worded it was wrong).

But anyway, onto the topic of the thread before someone comes and starts beating us with wet noodles:)

I think you were a little harsh on KC flash. He may cost 150 for only damage, but if we are arguing Ares with fortitude, why not flash with Armor Pierceing? In fact between a choice of GL or Flash, I'd probably go with flash. Thing is, HSS is much better then RS. You could conceivably have flash behind a corner running around and smacking *insert name here* and then running back without range (you know, the normal strategy for HSSers). Otherwise I'd say your right on the money with the rest of the list (so far).

Answerman
02/22/2005, 21:22
3 options i gave, never once said you called me a liar...

I've stated this twice now....

glutton
02/22/2005, 21:38
Hi! I did indeed win the re-flight sealed at the lacey pre-release with only Ares, no feat cards, pogs, or anything. The key to this piece that no one has commented on, is his outwit. I found it absolutely devastating to my opponents! His phasing actually saved me where anything short of HSS wouldnt have in my second match vs V sinestro R sinestro and star spangled kid E, well that and an indoor map. Never discount a fig with 19 d and impervious! I took home my Factory set of Unleashed giggling like a school girl. And to call it a fluke is crazed, for my opponent in the Finals had ares/damage shield/ rookie spoiler. I constantly bring theme teams to events and take home my fair share of wins, and I know the only important stat is the number of brain cells in your opponents head! Please don't disregard Ares if you pull him in a sealed event, I'd hate to see someone losing themselves an event just because Azs ripped into him so! Thanks!

lukebuchanan
02/22/2005, 21:41
Originally posted by thugit
So did I.


You're missing the point, so I'll move on.

Even when you try to be nice to people you get whacked! :laugh:

Just be an evil &^#(*d again Thugit, they'll respect you in the morning.

Luke B. thinks none of you will let him turn a new leaf!

Phantom
02/22/2005, 21:44
I'm still not sold on Batman as a 5-star veteran. If he takes two clicks of damage, then he falls into the same traps that bogged down Kid Flash and KC Flash: you've got an expensive piece on the board who does the damage of a harrasser. There are still enough ways to deal with his stealth (TK, Charge, Bright Lights, and Superman Allies) that you can't rely on him to remain safe under cover, nor can you heal him if someone hits that 17.

Teron_Gorfiend
02/22/2005, 21:48
Originally posted by glutton
And to call it a fluke is crazed, for my opponent in the Finals had ares/damage shield/ rookie spoiler.

I didnt call it a fluke, I just said you got lucky. Speaking of lucky, how were your dice rolls and how were your opponents (in general)?

lukebuchanan
02/22/2005, 21:48
Originally posted by Phantom
I'm still not sold on Batman as a 5-star veteran. If he takes two clicks of damage, then he falls into the same traps that bogged down Kid Flash and KC Flash: you've got an expensive piece on the board who does the damage of a harrasser. There are still enough ways to deal with his stealth (TK, Charge, Bright Lights, and Superman Allies) that you can't rely on him to remain safe under cover, nor can you heal him if someone hits that 17.

Exploit weakness on those 2 damage clicks.

Luke B. likin' Batman

AZS
02/22/2005, 22:40
Originally posted by Answerman
what you seem to be ignoring is that ARES DID WIN!!!!!

i don't mean to get "loud", but you've been told a few times now that ARes DOES work, and its been proven!

there were 92 people at the LAcey event, so it wasn't just some fluke.

You need to look at the evidence, and re-think your opinion dude... At the event *I* played at, Ares was a non-factor. Even though I know a few people played him.
So my experience varies a bit from yours.

Seeing as how there were only a handful of pre-release events run, and there will be hundreds of Marquee events, I'll reserve final judgement until March 28th.

In the meantime, I'll reiterate my request that people don't actually get *mad* at me for my oppinion. You're welcome to dissagree, and overall I know that players genuinely appreciate hearing contrary points of view. But when you start being rude and argumentative about it, people will discount your oppinion as the ravings of some fanboy. So keep it civil, and we'll all eventually see what the future holds. As for me, you couldn't give me an Ares for free and convince me to play him in a Marquee.

lukebuchanan
02/22/2005, 22:55
Originally posted by azs
At the event *I* played at, Ares was a non-factor. Even though I know a few people played him.
So my experience varies a bit from yours.

Seeing as how there were only a handful of pre-release events run, and there will be hundreds of Marquee events, I'll reserve final judgement until March 28th.

In the meantime, I'll reiterate my request that people don't actually get *mad* at me for my oppinion. You're welcome to dissagree, and overall I know that players genuinely appreciate hearing contrary points of view. But when you start being rude and argumentative about it, people will discount your oppinion as the ravings of some fanboy. So keep it civil, and we'll all eventually see what the future holds. As for me, you couldn't give me an Ares for free and convince me to play him in a Marquee.


Nope......................you're wrong, a stupid-head, an Anti-Areser (man, I hope that catches on), an all around bad-person. All this because you went out of your way to give an honest opinion to help people.

Thanks a lot jerk! :p

If I get Ares in a sealed I won't play him....................just for the reasons azs outlined: namely action allotment. And eventually SOMEONE will hit that defense of his, out of three games. After that the wall comes tumbling down.

Thanks again for the advice, because that's all it is. Whether or not you like the piece is still in the air.

Luke B.

Ravenface
02/22/2005, 23:52
We had an Ares pulled at our pre-release and the player who pulled him went 2-1. In the two he won he wiped out his opponents, and in the one he lost he scored zero points, so it's tough to say.

The two wipeouts, however, gave him enough points to make the top 16, so I would say Ares was a success in that regard.

However, were it single elimination like most of the Marquees are going to be, he would have been out in two games. So, in the freak circumstance of a Swiss sealed tourney followed by a single elimination tourney Ares worked out. In a sealed single elimination tourney, I would not play him.

Unless....it hasn't been mentioned yet that without cards Ares is 25pts under 300, so in most cases the other team will have the higher build total and will have to come to Ares to win. So, the fewer actions deal is not as critical.

Would Ares wait? Not in the comics, but with the lower build total winning with no KO's rule, he might.

One final point, how did glutton win the pre-release with Ares when the playoffs were constructed and Legacy was illegal?

Great reviews Azs.

DaLuvster89
02/23/2005, 00:42
So... While we are on the topic of Ares... :p

I just wanted to make a point, and Gentle Gamer can correct me if I'm wrong, but -

In sealed events like the Marquee, you are allowed to switch out figures that you pulled in between matches, correct?

If so, then pulling an Ares might not be such a bad thing. If your opponent is running a team with 2-3 figures, or just a team that you think Ares could be effective against, you could play him in that one match. He is the most reliable figure in the set when it comes to hitting a 20 defense. (Although GL should always get the first shot...)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I could have sworn that you could switch figures out of your team from match to match in sealed tourneys.

glutton
02/23/2005, 00:44
I didn't win the pre-release, I won the re-flight, out of 22 people. And yes Ares did get tagged in my first game by Wildfire, that put him in his Charge and he proptly smushed him with the pop machine. Rolls were average all-around until the finals when my opponents Ares crit missed followed by mine crit-hitting. BTW I love Azs' reviews, but I think if you're a good player you can find a ton of ways to exploit Ares' raw stats. I mean, witha desk in hindering you pack a walloping 22 defense, and I can't think of another figure that can get that high while having impervious. And the maquees in the Vancouver BC area are all swiss btw, best points of 3 games. And don't jump on answerman I think he was just a little defensive of people, by accident, bad-mouthing my victory.

Phantom
02/23/2005, 01:28
Originally posted by lukebuchanan
Exploit weakness on those 2 damage clicks.

Luke B. likin' Batman And he only has willpower with an average 15-16 defense on those same clicks to defend him. Compare him to Prometheus, who has his exploit weakness paired with dual-target Mind Control and Incap on his mid-dial. He can remain safely at range, but he's no slouch if the fight moves up close.

X-Inferno
02/23/2005, 01:36
Originally posted by Teron_Gorfiend
Wow. How'd that happen? Those must have been some really good matchups for that player, or his opponents could'nt roll worth carp. Even with all the high priced figures Ares should have had at least 2 to 1 odd against him.





Eye witness testimony doesnt count as evidence (simply due to the fact that false memories can be planted). Unless we actually see the winner's certificate for a factory set, its all eyewitness testimoney. You sure you want to use the word evidence?
Wow... you gotta be joking me!
How about a box of factory sealed unleashed figures... is that good enough evidence? Not only did the person using Ares win, but he won against a fellow who was also 2-0 with ares and a pog...

Every one keeps talking about how action deficient Ares will be in a tournament, but the average numbers of figures I saw on a team was 3, and if you were lucky a couple pogs!

quit acting so ignorant, and just accept that Ares is a solid 1 man army in marque format tournaments!

I agree that in Constructed, Ares would surely be cannon fodder... but in a sealed event, in the right hands, Ares can be a Solid figure! I'm not saying he's gonna win every marque, but he's gonna win more sealed events than any 1 star figure!

so please... Ares deserves more than 1 star! I'm sorry, but it's the truth!

X-Inferno
02/23/2005, 01:45
Originally posted by DaLuvster89
So... While we are on the topic of Ares... :p

I just wanted to make a point, and Gentle Gamer can correct me if I'm wrong, but -

In sealed events like the Marquee, you are allowed to switch out figures that you pulled in between matches, correct?

If so, then pulling an Ares might not be such a bad thing. If your opponent is running a team with 2-3 figures, or just a team that you think Ares could be effective against, you could play him in that one match. He is the most reliable figure in the set when it comes to hitting a 20 defense. (Although GL should always get the first shot...)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I could have sworn that you could switch figures out of your team from match to match in sealed tourneys.

Excellent point Daluvster89!

Teron_Gorfiend
02/23/2005, 01:57
Originally posted by X-Inferno
quit acting so ignorant, and just accept that Ares is a solid 1 man army in marque format tournaments!


Wait, because I posted something I did not believe, I'm ignorant? If thats the case then you must be ignorant if you dont believe in sasquatch or aliens. I only have Ares stats to go by, thus I cant say that i'm not shocked that Ares alone won the re-flight. I dont doubt that he is a solid figure.


I agree that in Constructed, Ares would surely be cannon fodder... but in a sealed event, in the right hands, Ares can be a Solid figure! I'm not saying he's gonna win every marque, but he's gonna win more sealed events than any 1 star figure!

You said so yourself that the most figures you saw was 3. Well with 3 figures shooting one at least one of em should've hit. Sounds like to me that the dice gods were in favor of one of their own that place. Also only the Marquee and pre-release is he actually only going to be fighting agains other legacy figures. In normal sealed your usually allowed at which boosters (from which sets) you pick.


DaLuvster89: Your not allowed to switch your team when you see what your fighting. You choose which team you play before the map choice (thus before the revealing of the teams).

X-Inferno
02/23/2005, 02:06
Originally posted by azs
I can't imagine any scenario where Ares can win a Marquee. Yeah someone might get lucky in one game, even two, but by the third game you're facing off against another player who has also gone 2-0, and Ares can't win against a good player with a good team.

Never say can't! Some one did win a reflight.. that tells me that it's possible!

It really does come down to the actions. If Ares wants to do anything, he has to move out onto the board. And as you stated, people make the mistake of pushing with him. So if you don't make the 'mistake' of pushing then instead you're sitting there for two turns while the other team has his way with you.

You say this like I'd be stupid enough to just move Ares into the middle of the board where my opponent could take avantage of me... First off Ares as a team by him self is going to be lower points than most teams meaning right off the bat my opponent has to come to me. I wouldn't plan basing any figure that doesnt have an action token, and wouldn't plan on leaving my back side open to retaliation! First thing I'm gonna do is base you're highest point figure or the most dangerous figure with the highest AV. then I'm gonna outwit any Damage enhancing powers... then I'm gonna let you attempt to hit my 21 defense! I you decide to throw a little guy at me first, guess what? I'm not going to use my desk, because it's optional!

And anyone dumb enough to throw a figure into Ares range and allow Ares to get a free shot on him deserves to lose.

Any body dumb enough to do this period... deserves to loose!

The desk is such a ubiquitous thing that everyone says. Its up there with the likes of Outwit for how often its brought up (like its the most obvious thing in the world.)
What basically everyone fails to mention is that the desk is destroyed the first time the character is even targeted with an attack.
I don't have to have a chance in hell of hitting Ares with a 21 defense, but as soon as I roll for the attack (and presumably miss), the desk is destroyed.

Sorry, the desk is optional... use i when the high AV fig trys to hit you!

Ares is back to his regular 19 defense. Presuming I use a cheap stealther to make the attack, Ares doesn't have any recourse to strike back either. That's assuming you don't Base you're threats... with Ares you have to base you're threats, so that you can lay the smack down on them, if they manage to knock you into you're flurry clicks!

Come on, admit it azs... Ares deserves more than 1 star, in a marque format! In constructed, sure he get's his godly ### handed to him by a well ballanced action efficient team... but that's the thing about the Legacy Sealed events... no body has an action efficient team!


these are all offcourse, just my opinions... ;)

X-Inferno
02/23/2005, 02:21
Originally posted by Teron_Gorfiend
Wait, because I posted something I did not believe, I'm ignorant? If thats the case then you must be ignorant if you dont believe in sasquatch or aliens. I only have Ares stats to go by, thus I cant say that i'm not shocked that Ares alone won the re-flight. I dont doubt that he is a solid figure.




You said so yourself that the most figures you saw was 3. Well with 3 figures shooting one at least one of em should've hit. Sounds like to me that the dice gods were in favor of one of their own that place. Also only the Marquee and pre-release is he actually only going to be fighting agains other legacy figures. In normal sealed your usually allowed at which boosters (from which sets) you pick.


DaLuvster89: Your not allowed to switch your team when you see what your fighting. You choose which team you play before the map choice (thus before the revealing of the teams).

I appologize for the ignorant remark... a little to much beer in me, and I was a tad irked at the treatment of a fellow friend in Answerman!

As far as the Dice gods are concerned... I don't see what they would have to do with it... Ares needs a 3 to hit the average defense of 17... meanwhile the average Attack value of 10 needs a 9 to Ares, or 10 if he's in hindering, or a 12 if holding a desk... if you ask me, the Dice gods are in favor of the non Ares team, if they manage to pull of a first strike on the God of War!

Don't think of Ares so much as a one man army... but more like, if you just happend to pull a descent team out of you're Legacy packs! If you pull nothing but garbage in youre sealed event + Ares, don't be afraid to use him just because he's a 1 star figure. The best thing about using him in a sealed format, is when you win, you allways win big... point wise! and since alot of tourneys, atleast in my area, go down to points... theres a good chance you're gonna come out on top!

any way, I'm done ranting... this is just a perspective from the other side of the spectrum... I'm not gonna label Ares as a 5 star figure, but I do think he deserves more than * 1 :)

discombobulous
02/23/2005, 02:24
Considering I was also at the Lacey pre-release, I can confirm that Ares did win the reflight...against another Ares.

I pulled one myself and used it decently in the side-event. Lost my first game thanks to a pair of crit misses though.


Originally posted by Teron_Gorfiend
Wow. How'd that happen? Those must have been some really good matchups for that player, or his opponents could'nt roll worth carp. Even with all the high priced figures Ares should have had at least 2 to 1 odd against him.





Eye witness testimony doesnt count as evidence (simply due to the fact that false memories can be planted). Unless we actually see the winner's certificate for a factory set, its all eyewitness testimoney. You sure you want to use the word evidence?

Teron_Gorfiend
02/23/2005, 02:31
Originally posted by X-Inferno
Don't think of Ares so much as a one man army... but more like, if you just happend to pull a descent team out of you're Legacy packs! If you pull nothing but garbage in youre sealed event + Ares, don't be afraid to use him just because he's a 1 star figure. The best thing about using him in a sealed format, is when you win, you allways win big... point wise! and since alot of tourneys, atleast in my area, go down to points... theres a good chance you're gonna come out on top!

Well yea in that situation. You could always have a better pull. Knowing me though, I'd pull and oracle and all rookie spoilers and pogs.

Oh and I didnt not mean to offend or dump on Answerman and I'm sorry if I did. It just seemed that he was trying to make Ares out to be "the end of all clix". Also as I previously stated, the whole evidence thing was me being a smarty pants (I get yelled at by my family for psycho analyzing loony tunes). Now perhaps we should get back onto subject before Azs calls the thread jacking police, eh?

X-Inferno
02/23/2005, 02:41
Originally posted by Teron_Gorfiend
Well yea in that situation. You could always have a better pull. Knowing me though, I'd pull and oracle and all rookie spoilers and pogs.

Oh and I didnt not mean to offend or dump on Answerman and I'm sorry if I did. It just seemed that he was trying to make Ares out to be "the end of all clix". Also as I previously stated, the whole evidence thing was me being a smarty pants (I get yelled at by my family for psycho analyzing loony tunes). Now perhaps we should get back onto subject before Azs calls the thread jacking police, eh?

Good point... excellent reviews!

I think Joker could be a bigger threat if you happend to pull a Lazirus Pit with him... but that's something that could be mentioned in the feat section.

As far as Ares is conserned... he gets a **** rating in my books... but that's just my own personal experience... wich is just one out of many pre-releases!

Grinner
02/23/2005, 02:41
I think that the whole "Ares debate" goes back to azs' comment that he couldn't imagine a scenario where Ares could win. Folks from the Lacey event who saw Ares win a 3-round sealed reflight tournament where he faced another undefeated Ares came back with "it happened."

From there things degraded into the anti-Ares camp implying that the only way that Ares could win is with incredible dice rolls and less-than-skilled opponents. Which prompted the Lacey crew to defend their compatriots honor.

Now, if we remove all the over-emotional bits, I think it comes down to this -

Is Ares likely to win most sealed Legacy events? Probably not. Action deficit and lack of a move & shoot power as well as several figures with decent attacks says that statistically the odds are not in his favor. However, the counterpoint is that with such a high-point field action deficit isn't as bad in a sealed Legacy event as in other events and not that many people have a 12 or better attack. So he isn't guaranteed to lose.

I'd probably have given him 2 or 3 stars. I think he's better than a 1 star, but then again, I saw him in action in Lacey tearing people up ;)

Teron_Gorfiend
02/23/2005, 02:46
Originally posted by Grinner
but then again, I saw him in action in Lacey tearing people up ;)

Yea yea yea, keep rubbing it in my face you commie bas...oh hey censors!

Grinner
02/23/2005, 03:09
Originally posted by Teron_Gorfiend
Yea yea yea, keep rubbing it in my face you commie bas...oh hey censors!

Y'know, I get that second part a lot. Usually from my wife ;)

Now the commie part I don't get much :laugh:

VandalSavage
02/23/2005, 04:03
Originally posted by azs

What basically everyone fails to mention is that the desk is destroyed the first time the character is even targeted with an attack. I don't have to have a chance in hell of hitting Ares with a 21 defense, but as soon as I roll for the attack (and presumably miss), the desk is destroyed. Ares is back to his regular 19 defense..


Actually, As I recently learned, Ares or whoever was carrying the desk would chose whether or not they wanted to use it for defense on any given attack..Once chosen it is gone, but the carrier of the desk would not have to use it if they did not see fit. This was ruled by Hair10 at the Pre-Release to be the case.


Mr. Savage

X-Inferno
02/23/2005, 04:08
Originally posted by Grinner
Y'know, I get that second part a lot. Usually from my wife ;)

Now the commie part I don't get much :laugh:

LMAO... Did he just say that?

Ok... I degress... 3 stars for Ares... but I'm not going any lower!!


azs... I allways respect you're reviews and I know theyre just you're opinions, so we do have no right to tear into you! And you know what? I'll even respect you're * star for Ares, as long as you promise, to make a little bleep in you're feats section review, about how the right combination... Ares+Damage Shield/or/Fortitude+Poor Teamwork, would up his rating to ** stars... atleast? :rolleyes: :cheeky: :p

thanks- :)

VandalSavage
02/23/2005, 04:11
Originally posted by thugit
That's a weak arguement.


I was at a Pre-Release and Ares lost several times.

Does that mean you need to re-think your opinion, dude?

;)

I played an Ares, BUT 2 things...I was playing him in a Constructed when he lost...Not the Sealed portion and I ran him out just to see if he could stand there and be cool. Terry who pulled him easily won his first game with Ares not taking even one click in the sealed portion. He dropped after the first round so I have no other games to use as an example or test.

When Ed played him he was very close to winning which was also in the constructed portion, BUT he decided Not to use the desk twice and was hit both times...Don't ask me why!

Mr. Savage

Ignatz_Mouse
02/23/2005, 09:17
Originally posted by Teron_Gorfiend
Wow. How'd that happen? Those must have been some really good matchups for that player, or his opponents could'nt roll worth carp. Even with all the high priced figures Ares should have had at least 2 to 1 odd against him.


Ares + fortitude + desk.

That's how I did it.

Note that another (good) player also got Ares and Fortitude and lost (mostly by being overly aggressive) to another good player.

Ro-gan
02/23/2005, 09:23
Excellent job as always, azs!!!!

Some VERY useful info there for me. ;)

Ignatz_Mouse
02/23/2005, 09:31
Oh, and I don't think I'll play him at the Marquee if I pull him, even with Fortitude. Too many Mystics and wildcards in the set, which is *really* the reason not to play a one-man army. I got lucky not to face any in my match.

Ishiatama
02/23/2005, 09:49
I pulled 2 Flash at my pre-release and ruled the day with him (3-0). Not once during the event did he sustain any damage from another figure (I pushed twice and rolled a critical failure twice in three matches). I managed to pull the "Armor Piercing" feat so I had no trouble at all with any Impervious or Invulnerable character. Not once during any of my matches did I have his HSS outwitted as I used the terrain to my advantage and prevented any character with outwit to target him.

In a 300 point game Flash coupled with "Armor Piercing" and "In contact with Oracle" you can have a beastly figure that always does at least 1 point of damage and has free perplex. and still have room for some supporting figures.

thespiderfly
02/23/2005, 10:29
Originally posted by azs
As for me, you couldn't give me an Ares for free and convince me to play him in a Marquee.
I would, but only because I'd do it for a free Ares!!! :p


I really think that you're spot on with your reviews of the figures. U Flash is the only one that I would change up a bit and put in the 3-4 star category simply because he's cheap enough that there is still room to put one or two good figures on the team as well.

Kiryu
02/23/2005, 20:44
Flash really cleaned house at the Pre-Release I was in. Just aim for the highest AV, HSS in and HSS out.

And Ares, Ares is tough. If you have front loaded Outwit, you can take him down or at least make him push. Without that Outwit, he really hurts a lot.

thraashman
02/24/2005, 02:41
Hmmm. I don't know how many of you actually faced off against an Ares in the prerelease, but I did. I won my first round losing only a 3 pt pog, then I won my second round, losing again only that 3 pt pog, but taking down a KC GL this time, and then 3rd round I faced an Ares with damage shield and a Harvey Bullock. I got Harvey, missed Ares with my first two shots at him with Sinestro, and then Ares put a heavy object through Sinestro making him useless. Then waited and killed him, and later took out wildfire. And on the table next to me I watched a Fortitude Ares take out another well made and undefeated team.

I did however manage to maintain a top 16 spot even with my fatal loss to Ares.

feluwelt
02/25/2005, 11:29
I have to holehardily disagree with your assesment of ares

ok he cant push, but then agin with his 19 defense, put him close to the enemies and watch them all miss him then start pushing to get to flury

when you are surrounded by figures with flury, your killing them 2 at a time almost in one turn, hes huge and mean

as long as you are patient with him you will win.

i played 3 games with only him no feats

the 2 games i won all attacks against him were missed

the 3rd game i lost i was up against a swarm team, which would be rare in this format. and if i didnt charge and push a lot i still could have won that game.

kill jynx quickly shes the only nemesis of ares

and i didnt play gl but im sure ares can destroy that figure because gl has no dmg red and ares with 4dmg CCE would do a large number on him in range.

If GL had supersonic speed it would be evil but without it, i cant tell you how many poeple wasted actions trying to move away from ares.

bottom line ares almost never missed you need 4s or 5s to hit big hitters its easy to always hit and ares almost never gets hit. 8 to 10s to hit him usslay a 9 to hit him.

play ares right and you will have 1500points.
with my 2 wins i ended up with 1175 points, enough to advance to the final 16.

And if you can get in contact with the oracle and a bystander token then ares is the pick, forget fortitude, use in contact with the oracle to give him a free perplex and a 20 defense