Weekly Poll: HeroClix, a game of luck or skill?

[webhead817]

There is no doubt that both luck AND skill play a part in the game, but in your opinion, which plays the larger roll in determining the outcome of games...luck, or skill?

[Top10]

It defintely comes down to luck sometimes but overall a skillfull player can overcome bad luck

[BudPalmer]

Six parts skill four parts luck!

[St. Cuthbert]

Definately more skill than luck. You can get by, sort of, if you're skilled but unlucky, but you really can't win if you're bad, even with the rolls.

[JKLantern]

In all the games I play, the only reason I come anywhere CLOSE to winning is insane amounts of luck. Absurd luck can overcome skill.

And occasionally, vice versa. But I'm going with luck.

[MSU]

You can be lucky, but it only takes you so far. Skill is what helps you overcome bad luck. Sometimes the game can come down to a lucky die roll, but overall, its the people with skill that move on to the finals.

[Tannybogus]

A skilled player can, most of the time, overcome the worst luck. I have lost a game one time because of impossible rolls by my opponent and unfathomably bad rolls on my part (Ult Cap can't hit a four to kill off a 20 point fig with four tries!) but that has only occurred one time in the thousands of games I have played. It's burned in my memory only for its improbability.

However, bad luck can easily reveal an unskilled or immature player - he or she becomes frustrated and basically abandons any game plan nor did the person construct a team with a back-up plan.

[thunderhole]

I voted luck. I agree with Bud. Most of the time skill prevails, but think about it like this. Inevitably when I come up with a great move the dice play a factor. If I hit then luck went my way. If I miss then luck wasn't on my side. Either way it was lucky for someone. I have no control on what the dice will show. 50% of this game is team building, 30% is how you play vs. how your opponent plays, and the other half is dice.

[tristam]

Skill is a bigger factor. 80% skill, 20% luck.
However, against similarly skilled players luck becomes a bigger factor. It reminds me a little of poker.
To quote Rounders- "People think it's all luck, but then why do the same few guys always end up at the final table year-in year-out."(or something like that)

Same with clix- There are usually a few that end up at the end of Heroclix finals most of the time.

Here's an example of great luck, this past weekend.
It comes down to my KC supes vs Ult Mag full health. There were some other figures but nothing but line of sight blockers(no damage over 1) Early in the game I miss my first attack roll on Mags, a few turns later hit, but he makes IMP roll, few more turns, I roll critical hit and he makes another IMP roll, then he hits back and I take damage. More turns, I hit again and again he makes IMP rolls thats 3 in a row.Next time I hit and he misses, Few more turns later I roll critical miss and lose my HHS- I'm a sitting duck and he finally KO's supes.(couple more turns)
He had great luck- 3 IMP rolls when if he only made a normal 1 out of 3 = no more Mags, then I crit miss to lose HHS, then he has me. But that's why its fun!

[Goblin_Avenger]

skill, with careful planning you can remove most of the luck from the game by using high defenses, high attacks, and strategies where your opponent cannot effectively retaliate (and therefor, doesn't even get to roll).

[Gumpold]

Winners usually say Skill, losers usually say it's luck!

[malchyor]

why would anyone want to play a game that came down to luck as the deciding factor? why have a champion in something like that? that'd be like having a championship of coin flipping. who would attend, let alone play?

it's definately skill, all the way.

[Darkskaven]

Skill is the main factor that determine the outcome of a game : team building, skill in the game, choice (if possible) of the map and of the right side, the deployement, and now the good choice of the BFC card against your opponent.

But luck is an important part of the game because nearly all the things you do in the game depends on a dice roll (and luck is quite important too in sealed games, no matter how you are good to build a team or even when playing).

And sometimes, luck can win or lose a game for a player, no matter the skills of the players, or even the teams played. I can speak about this because I lost nearly all my games no matter who's my opponent or the teams played : I roll between 2 to 3 critical misses in each game (my record is 7 critical miss in a 300pts/10 turns game), even if I always play with some PC...
I am nearly never succesfull with a standard breakaway roll, even with PC (about 90% of time I fail the breakaway roll, 80% with a re-roll). I have actually matched my strategies and actions in the game counting that I cannot be succesfull with a breakaway roll (and the rare times where I try a breakaway roll, it fails inevitably). So I try to avoid any breakaway roll, but this is a big disadvantage (and that's pure luck disadvantage, 50% chance to go or stay, no matter if I am or not a skilled player).
I like to have varied teams, but PC is obligatory to me, and I tend to appreciate to have some figures that don't recquire breakaway rolls (that's quite annoying to have to do this all the time, but I don't have the choice).
The worst is that it's the same when playing with online dice servers. :disappoin

So in normal circonstances, skill in the main factor. But in some cases (or for some people that are particularly unlucky), luck dominates (even if skill still has it's importance).

[Marshal Law]

This poll probably should have had grey areas.

Frankly HeroClix isn't high on the tactics & strategy egghead scale - facing (and thus flanking) isn't an issue, terrain effects are virtually non-existant. Concepts like opportunity fire, ammunition type, hit location, counter measures, defensive positions, reconnaissance & fog of war, and morale are completely absent. Its miniature gaming-lite, a beer & pretzels game for anyone with a background in old school wargames. Once you've got the rules down, the rest is almost intuitive. There's a fair bit of skill in the game, but getting competent is relatively quick and the law of diminishing returns on "practice increases your skill" kicks in even quicker.

On the other hand, the best setup and team build strategy followed by the best play tactics can go catastrophically wrong by a streak of bad luck. Not just "lose the game" wrong, but absolute skunk on points wrong even against a clearly inferior team and player, to a degree that exceeds many of the more "serious" strategy games. Once you get a pair up of players at at least a certain competent skill level, the luck factor is going to play a heavy role. Not enough that luck rules out over skill, but enough that its a rare tournament that luck didn't cut several "better" players from the final rounds. While "novice" will almost always lose to "expert", the difference between "master" and "grand master" is going to take a strict back seat to the die rolls.

Not that this is a flaw in the game, its just the nature of it. Its a light tactical game with significant luck elements. Its not chess, nor is it craps.

[The Werle]

You can have the best diceluck in the world, but if you dont know how to coordinate and compose your team you'll never win.

Skill baby, its all about skill.

[Spidersense]

This game definatley favors the skillful - in team building, positioning, etc. However, what is great about the game is that because of the dice, even if you are the better player, you are not guaranteed a win.

The best positioning game plan in the world is worth nothing if the dice decide to only roll 3s and 4s. Even probability control cant prevent it from never occuring.

I think a very skillful player will beat an average one 80% of the time.

As Phil Helmuth said in the World Series of Poker: "I guess if there was no luck involved, I'd win every hand".

[thugit]

Originally posted by Marshal Law
This poll probably should have had grey areas.

Frankly HeroClix isn't high on the tactics & strategy egghead scale - facing (and thus flanking) isn't an issue, terrain effects are virtually non-existant. Concepts like opportunity fire, ammunition type, hit location, counter measures, defensive positions, reconnaissance & fog of war, and morale are completely absent. Its miniature gaming-lite, a beer & pretzels game for anyone with a background in old school wargames. Once you've got the rules down, the rest is almost intuitive. There's a fair bit of skill in the game, but getting competent is relatively quick and the law of diminishing returns on "practice increases your skill" kicks in even quicker.

On the other hand, the best setup and team build strategy followed by the best play tactics can go catastrophically wrong by a streak of bad luck. Not just "lose the game" wrong, but absolute skunk on points wrong even against a clearly inferior team and player, to a degree that exceeds many of the more "serious" strategy games. Once you get a pair up of players at at least a certain competent skill level, the luck factor is going to play a heavy role. Not enough that luck rules out over skill, but enough that its a rare tournament that luck didn't cut several "better" players from the final rounds. While "novice" will almost always lose to "expert", the difference between "master" and "grand master" is going to take a strict back seat to the die rolls.

Not that this is a flaw in the game, its just the nature of it. Its a light tactical game with significant luck elements. Its not chess, nor is it craps.


Fantastic post!!

I agree with everything you said here.

[Darth Sabre]

I believe that skill can over come luck 75% of the time.

Then there are those days when your dice fail you so miserably, that you can't hit the broad side of a barn with tank. :ermm:

[EmperorNorton]

I've been defeated more often by bad luck than by good tactics.
There really aren't that many things to know about the tactics of this game and if you haven't picked up the skill you need by your third game you should play with marbles instead.

[Wolf_Leader]

Luck all the way. You can randomly build a team and randomly assign it actions, and good luck can win the game. Even the best team and strategy is going to fail if you roll really really bad against an opponent with little skill who rolls really really good.

More often than not I see good players brought down because of bad luck and bad players excel because of good luck. Of course, only when luck is slanted one way or the other.

Basically, since it all comes down to dice, it has to be luck. But, since the law of averages or whatever probability stuff applies, in the long run skill appears to be a larger factor.

[Gargantua]

Luck is certainly a factor and can win a game for a bad player or lose a game for a good player. We all had games we shoulda won, excep that the dice were agaonst us. But when it comes down to overall record in, say, 20 games it's the skillful player who will come out on top.

[artyboy]

It's a game of luck. Part of being skillful, though, is having a good idea of what your odds are to succeed in actions. You also have to learn how to minimize your chances of failing. This all comes down to solid team building.

I see people complain about missing rolls on 7s, 8s or 9s all of the time. Then they wonder why they're losing when I need a 4, 5 or less to hit with every attack. I also see people who get really lucky rolls all game and win that way. When their luck runs out they wonder why they're losing. A lucky critical hit or critical miss at just the right time can swing any game in the other person's favor. Especially when two skilled players are playing. If the dice are cooperating and doing what they're "supposed" to do then generally it will come down to the better player winning, though.

A good player can overcome bad dice rolls but a poor player can just as easily overcome lack of skill with good dice rolls. I'd put the ratio at 51% luck 49% skill.

[Brazil]

This game reminds me very much of the Instant Messanger game head to head Minsweeper Flags. There is a lot of luck...a lot of luck, but there is also a lot of skill. The problem here is that because of the wide audience for heroclix there is such a wide variety of player skills. When the skill levels are close, then luck is the most important factor. If the skill levels are drastically different, then luck isn't such a large factor.

[Clix776]

Originally posted by Marshal Law
This poll probably should have had grey areas. It does.
Originally posted by webhead817
There is no doubt that both luck AND skill play a part in the game, but in your opinion, which plays the larger roll in determining the outcome of games...luck, or skill?. Not "does luck win -OR- does skill win?", but "out of 100%, how does the divide between luck and skill fall?" If you think that it's more skill (which you seem to, though you think it's not a hard skill), then your answer should be "Skill". That doesn't mean you think the game is all skill, just that skill is the more important factor. The only grey area the poll could have had was "50/50".

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

[tyroclix]

The luckiest unskilled player in the world will never beat the unluckiest skilled player in the world.

Between two equally skilled players, it comes down to luck.

So I guess you could say its both.

I'd say it's 70% skill 30% luck. That's also why I say if you win more than 70% of the games you are playing the guys you are playing against stink.

[LabRat]

For me, skill and luck are almost equal, but with a lot of things affected by dice rolls (map choice, Super sense rolls, Impervious rolls, knockback, hits and misses, critical hits and misses, BFC) I give the edge to luck, but only a little...

Sure, a skillful player can use the odds to his advantage, but we know how luck can defy the odds...

[GreenMan]

skill kills, but the dice are the great equalizer. I just won an event because an opponents vet Dr. Strange couldn't take out my unstealthed domino after 3 rolls. another cigar and a shot of rum to Jobu.

[Wolverine_Hulk]

Skill because the a skilled player can use luck to their advantage with probability control.

[scholarx]

I'd have to say that team building is all skill. There are no luck factors as to what a player chooses to put on his force. Most skillful players will do their best to construct a team that takes as much luck out of the game as possible (within the build total given). {In sealed and draft tourneys, luck does factor into what figures you have available, of course.}

However, after all that hard work, it really comes down to whether you hit or miss, no matter how well-constructed your force may be. I can count on one hand how many times an opponent has actually defeated me when my dice were doing their job... the rest of the time, the dice just fell short. Sometimes I feel I must owe some Karmic gaming debt, because once I miss two attacks or more in a row by just 1 in a match, my dice just get worse from there. {Hey, at least I get the signal to put on my "Fellowship Face", right?} This is why my standard tourney teams now pack at least 2 Probability Controllers (my last tourney winner had Loki, Black Cat, and Destiny).

Now matter how experienced a player you are, you still have to roll the dice to hit... and that roll result is determined by chance alone. Good luck, everyone!:grin:

[LabRat]

Here's an example of how my opponen'ts good luck went against my skill... We were playing X-Men teams both down to a few pieces, with me at a great advantage (I was just finishing his last 3 figs off)... He's got his Vet Cyclops on the last click (6 AV) with a token, so like any player, I weighed the odds of him hitting my Vet Storm (on her 1st click) in hindering terrain (15 DV + ES/D + terrain bonus = 18 DV). HE needed a 12 to hit Storm, and I figured he wouldn't push Cyke with such odds so I moved Storm in, ready to push on the next turn to finish his Vet Beast off... Well, darn my luck, my opponent decides to push Cyke and he actually rolls a 12, which eventually cost me the match...

[tyroclix]

However, after all that hard work, it really comes down to whether you hit or miss, no matter how well-constructed your force may be. I can count on one hand how many times an opponent has actually defeated me when my dice were doing their job... the rest of the time, the dice just fell short.

Sounds like you were playing someone roughly equal to you.

Have you ever played a real newbie? No dice rolls in the would affect that outcome.

Marching your V Cyborg into open terrain on your opening move isn't going to be successful no matter how well or not the dice rolls are.

You've got to have the skills to set up your attacks and to protect your figures. If it only came down to dice rolls then you should be able to march your team straight out and have a chance at winning. Fact is, you will never win with that strategy.

I've won games due to luck - like rolling doubles for the knockback that actually KO's a figure that gives me the win. But it was the skill of setting up that attack that made it possibility for that to occur.

[burners_banshe]

Skill is needed in many ways like team building, strategy on how to position your attackers and how to proceed with certain decisions that appear in the game.

So, if you are playing against a less experienced player, you can be sure that strategy and skill is going to overcome luck in many ways, because you have to be prepared to "if I miss then...."

However, if you are playing against a player with more or less the same experience, then luck is going to be the defining factor. An example of this, is what happened in my DC prerelease, I was lucky enough to pull a KC Green Lantern, so I paired him with an E Obsidian and a 2 point bystander. I was doing very good and winning my rounds, but then a team with Persuader, Batman, Obsidian and some bystanders came, it seemed easy and I planned the attack very good. My first strike with GL, needed a 3 to hit, rolled critical miss, rolled with Obsidian and hit, but he got 5 in supersenses, my second strike with GL needed 4 to hit, rolled critical miss, cleared Obsidian but he took damage, GL was ok except of the 2 clicks from the critical misses, next turn, cleared GL and rolled with Obsidian, he hitted but my oponent again rolled a 5 in supersenses. Next turn, GL made his 3rd attack, needed 5 to hit, rolled critical miss. And that was the game for me since from then my opponent just crushed me. I couldn't believe what was happening, but well....

So, at games like this, it doesn't matter the skill, if you just can't hit because of luck, you are dead.

[Dies Irae]

The bunch of friends which I normally play with call me "Batman Lite" for the sheer quantity of planning and contingency I typically have for each action I take.

However, when both Experienced Aquaman and Veteran Wonder Woman can't hit an Experienced Punisher, I'd say luck can make or break a game.

For the new to seasoned player, the game is about 60% planning , 40% luck.

For a veteran player, luck is less of a factor as he can take effort to minimise its effects. So, I'd put the ration at about 70 : 30. Mind you, that 30 will KILL you if it wants to.

[First Lensman]

Originally posted by Top10
It defintely comes down to luck sometimes but overall a skillfull player can overcome bad luck

I don't care how skillfull a palyer is, if they get a few bad rolls it is hard to overcome. Most likely your team is toast.

[darius_dax1]

Skill. All skill. Skill is team building and in-game strategy. It is also being able to react to both your opponent's moves and all the die-rolls.

[discombobulous]

Originally posted by GreenMan
skill kills, but the dice are the great equalizer. I just won an event because an opponents vet Dr. Strange couldn't take out my unstealthed domino after 3 rolls. another cigar and a shot of rum to Jobu.


Yo bartender! Jobu needs a refill!

[Manchine]

I would rather be lucky then skillful any day. OF course, I am not lucky which is the reason why I lose, a lot!

[drgnoftyr]

so many games i have played have been a coin flip .... i say its all about luck and dice rolls....:laugh: :laugh:

[Magnito]

I voted for skill, although more recently, the luck gods havn't been working in my favor. If this were a month from now, my vote may have been differant.

[Scipio]

The answer, obviously,

is yes.

What a stupid question.

[herosspirit]

Watching one of those Poker tournaments on Espn, the favored opponent who played all his life took it very seriously and said it was a game of skill. The new comer who only had played for 2 years or so said it was all based on luck. Guess who won. (the new comer)

Yes he admitted you had to know the rules to not make silly mistakes, however if two people understand the fundamental rules and can build reasonable teams, then normally the one with the better rolls will win. We probably want to say skill so we can justify going to the back of comic shops to say we are playing strategy games. In reality, we are playing with little plastic toys with a bunch of overgrown kids. Just admit it and enjoy it bubs. *Snikt* :devious:

[webhead817]

I think it has to be skill, otherwise there wouldn't be "good" players, just lucky ones.

In the past couple of months, I've gone 11-3-1 in major tourney play (Pre-Releases, Premiere Event and Marquee), of those games, I'm 9-2-1 in sealed play. In sealed play, luck plays the additional factor of determining your limited figure pool. And you know what? I'm not a very lucky person. :)

[herosspirit]

Skill helps you to lower the number of mistakes you make to improve your odds, however, you are still dependent on the dice to seal the deal.

A few scenarios:
At our local venue, the judge normally does not allow medics. I have observed that normally, the team who has first blood in this scenario wins unless luck turns it around.

Cheese teams with BCF are based off luck. TK your your Spiral in and pray for sixes. Oh, didn't work... I guess I will use my destiny to fix that. Next turn, I will TK in Kabuki.
Very very complex strategy here. Sorry for the sarcasm but that advanced strategy made my brain hurt.

[Prof. Aragorn]

Can you win 100 percent of your games without having to roll your dice?

It's probable, but you probably won't. In the end, it's how the die rolls. You can have 15 probability controllers on your team and need anything higher than snake eyes to hit your target, but you can still roll snake eyes 16 times in a row.

However improbable the situation, it still isn't impossible until it never happens.

[scholarx]

Originally posted by tyroclix
Sounds like you were playing someone roughly equal to you.
As I said before, I can count on one hand the times that I've lost when my dice were working to a reasonable degree. This applies to every game of Clix I've ever played - so I'd consider some of those players' skills to be 'roughly equal' to my own, some better, and some worse. Losing to your own dice rolls is worse punishment than any player's skillful attack.
Have you ever played a real newbie? No dice rolls in the would affect that outcome. Marching your V Cyborg into open terrain on your opening move isn't going to be successful no matter how well or not the dice rolls are.
Of course I've played newbies! Usually, it's some of the most pleasurable gaming to encounter, because {in my experience} many newbs are more into enjoying the game than winning a prize. However, until you've had the unique pleasure of watching a newbie opponent make rookie mistake after mistake (which you point out to him & let him take back if he wants) while rolling nothing lower than an 8, all the while trying to calmly defend yourself but rolling nothing above 5 (when only a 6 is needed)... well, you just haven't lived. :tired:
You've got to have the skills to set up your attacks and to protect your figures. If it only came down to dice rolls then you should be able to march your team straight out and have a chance at winning. Fact is, you will never win with that strategy.
Well, don't be so sure. As someone wisely said, Heroclix really isn't the high end of strategy games. Some teams (or at least their more powerful members) are very much marched out to attack without any real finesse {certain high-cost RunShot & HSS figs come to mind :cheeky:}. Certainly, setting up attacks in hopes of eliminating retaliation is a part of the game... but short of KOing your targets, there is little that can be done to stop your opponent from attempting the same tactics against you. Truly, 'Clix does not ONLY come down to the dice rolls... setting up your team to maximize your chances is part of the challenge. However, you can have your team tweaked and playtested to the max, know the rules like the back of your hand, and set up a glorious strategy to cripple your opponent... but if you miss? Poof! Strategy foiled (at least temporarily), and your opponent didn't have to do a single thing.
In the end, no matter how superior your team and strategy may be to that of your opponent, the dice can and will decide the fate of the game.
:sleep:

[I Am The Game]

Subpar players can do a lot of damage when they've got a horseshoe stuck someplace, but you can't beat a skillful player when your dice just don't want to go. When the game is on the line, and the best players are fighting it out, luck wins it.

[JoeMB]

All Luck, I saw Changelin hit Kingdome Come Superman for 1 click of damage. Oh, and for 4 turns changeling was able to base this guy, and Superman missed him twice at point blank.

[Scavenger4]

I would have to go by skill having the majority but luck does play a HUGE part, especially in a game where two players are equally as skillful.

I would definately have to say its 7 parts skill and 3 parts luck (usually the dice are even, not one way or the other).

[delowen]

I don't think it's possible for you to get a very accurate poll with this question. I would imagine the vast majority of people who vote are going to vote SKILL simply because they like savoring their victories without having to give very much thought to how lucky they were or how unlucky the other player was.;)

[tribefan]

Like most games where strategy is the main component, skill is what wins in the end. And let it be known I'm not very skilled.:grin:

[natesummers]

the only time ive been beat by luck it was a skillfull player with good luck that beat me ,sure luck comes it to it be couse of the dice if your rolls #### find better dice i dont use dice from starter packs i like dice with more curved sides,dont ever use dice that are squere they just dont work
and if luck is a problem for u then theres only one thing u need pc can any one say dr fate,black cat,raven or an old fave desteny
i realy think that thinking on your feat is the best way to play.you dont need luck and you dont need a big play just take you time and think(i maybe slow but you not gonna beat me easly)

[PANZER]

Well ... I really think that the dice affects HC more than most players would admit ... you guys will see, when people start to field KC GL and Fortitude, how much dice can change the tide of a game.

[szude]

I would like to point out, all the "luck" people are offering single-occurence anecdotal evidence. "This one time I saw someone roll 12s...." Yeah, it happens. This weekend I myself rolled 12 with Jane Foster to knock Deathstroke off a building to KO him. But those are the edges of the bell curve. Over time, it all hits the middle.

As someone said, poker is very representative. The same people end up at the final tables. Sure, the same *person* won't make it every time, but it'll be someone from the larger overall skilled group.

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by Marshal Law
This poll probably should have had grey areas.
Originally posted by Clix776
It does.

Look again. The *posts* have grey areas. The *poll* is two choices - luck or skill. No middle ground, hence no grey area.

[Clix776]

Originally posted by Marshal Law
Look again. The *posts* have grey areas. The *poll* is two choices - luck or skill. No middle ground, hence no grey area. I think that being able to embrace 100% Skill, 100% Luck, and anwhere from 99% Skill and 1% Luck to 1% Skill and 99% Luck stands as a very good level of grey area, capable of embracing anybody's opinion of the factors at work in the game.

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

[Slade Wilson]

Im gona have to go with skill,
I would say its a 70/30 skill and then luck hey 30% luck is a lot to have in a strategy game!

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by delowen
I don't think it's possible for you to get a very accurate poll with this question. I would imagine the vast majority of people who vote are going to vote SKILL simply because they like savoring their victories without having to give very much thought to how lucky they were or how unlucky the other player was.;)

Probably a fair bit of accuracy there. I can't count the number of "its all skill, baby" trash talking players (of several games) I've seen left by the road side once their ability to consistently roll 9+ fails them. That's right about the time they complain about how they lost due to luck.

Show up to any major strategy game tournament, and watch the games in progress. If you know what you're looking for, you'll see the skill in action by how a player positions their forces, how their resources are allocated with several turns in the future planning in mind. Watch the action long enough, and there won't be any doubts or questions, the flow will just look *right*. And you'll probably see a few of those same players orchestrate everything like Swiss clockwork, and have it all blow up in their face when the dice get tossed into the box. You'll look at the final tournament tally, look back at the players you saw, and notice there is a correlation - but not an exact match.

One of the best experiences I had in the "over hype the skill factor" was a Settlers of Cataan tournament a couple years back. 20 players, several being the incessantly strategy talking "its a game of skill" type. The game was *old* hat to me, but I recognized it for what it was - beer & pretzels. I chimed in that the game isn't one of high skill, just common sense, play by ear intuition, and luck of the dice. I might as well have tossed a dead rat on the table, by the reactions I got. While the "grand masters" patted their own backs about the merits of their initial setups (which I could only scratch my head at) and spent resources cutting off opponents for no personal gain (all in the name of long term strategy), I quietly played the games one turn at a time as the board situation developed, trying to maximize my own gain while waiting for the dice to turn my way (they tended not to, but they did mostly average out). When the smoke cleared, I had won the tournament with no losses. By the reactions I got, I might as well have tossed down a second dead rat.

I've found that the better the HeroClix player is, the more likely they are to acknowledge the luck factor. Beating the snot out of newbies may be a show of skill, but it isn't a show of bragging rights skill. When you play against someone who isn't a novice, you find those dice weigh heavy.

[JayThor]

Although many games were lost for me to the dice roll, I don't believe in luck, just the odds. So that leaves skill, which has won many more games for me than a dice roll. You have to know the powers, pick good combos of characters that fit your playing style, and be able to adjust to what your opponent does. That takes skill, or you lose.

[darius_dax1]

As I said before it is all about skill.

The proof of that is two players have chance (or luck) in common. Not all players have skill in common.

[doctorfate77]

I actually consider luck to be one of my skills. It's helped me win more games than I can count. but only real games. I get my karmic comeuppance whenever I play online games, or Star Wars Miniatures...


I HATE online dice rollers....

[Bakool11]

The game is mostly skill for sure but in the end not even the best stratagist can account for the dice. You can only set yourself up the best you can but if you roll bad, then you lose no matter how great your stratagy was. This game isnt chess where there are no dice, just pure stratagy.

[styx]

There should be a spot for both luck and skill. This one would get my vote. All the skill in the world will not win if you cannot roll higher than a 5.


Styx

[Rocket Ranger]

The "odds" factor that is the part of the game the dice have complete control over is the one part of the game that can't be determined by a player's skill or quality of game pieces used. In a way, it is the unforeseen equalizer that can allow the newest person to the game the ability and opportunity to handily defeat a seasoned player. Obviously, therefore, such an equalizing factor is very powerful. Sure, you can stack the odds in your favor by applying various tactics and abilities, but, the simple truth is that games are often decided by who rolls what when. There have been many times when I should have had a game in the bag only to miss over and over on my attacks and end up losing. On the flipside, there have been times that I should have been counted out, but with some bold tactics gambling on a successful dice roll, I have squeaked out victories when it should have been nigh to impossible.

So, in Heroclix, which is the more powerful factor: the dice or skill? Well, personally, I feel that, while skill is what gets ya to the top, it's the dice roll that puts you over...or knocks ya back the way you came!;) I'm not saying that the dice alone wins games. I'm just saying that you can have all the skill in the world, but, if the dice aren't going your way, the game may not either.

[deadalus13]

Skill plays a part, but it is not as big a part as some people are making out. A very skilled player will beat an average skilled player more often than not. They will both beat a true newbie most of the time. Not because of skill, but because of the newbie's general lack of understanding about the game. At the same time the very skilled player can lose to the average skilled player because of bad dice rolls or just a bad draw. It doesn't even necessarily take a lot of bad dice rolls either. When both players are about equal in skill, dice become even more of a factor. A lot of times in this situation, you can trace a victory or a loss to a single dice roll. And while probability control can help, it does not get rid of the dice. A good player will rarely attack from a spot that his enemy's PCer can draw LOS to. Also, rerolling does not necessarily mean that the second roll will be better than the first. I think most people can remember at least one situation where they wish they could take back a reroll.
Every team has weaknesses. Some times you get unlucky enough to face a team that seems designed specifically to exploit your team's weaknesses. This is just a bad draw. Also, it doesn't take much skill to win with some team designs. Most of you have seen some of these teams. (GL trick shot teams, Thor plus perplexers, etc.) I can build a team, and with a few pointers, a newbie can go far in a tournament with one of these teams. They are very straight forward and require very little tactical ability.
When you add Marquis tourneys, Battle Royales, or any other kind of booster draws to the mix, luck becomes an even bigger factor. How many people saw someone pull a Thor at the Ultimates Marquis and proceed to decimate his opponents?
On the other hand, luck usually balances out. I played a friendly game recently where I rolled 5 critical misses and nothing higher than an 8. I have played a tournament where I not only rolled 3 critical hits to my opponent's 2 critical misses, but where none of my figures besides for GL missed a single roll no matter how high of a roll they needed (GL missed all three of his with double ones, double 2s and double 3s consectutively. It felt really weird, like the laws of probability were being bent.)
I would say that the game is 49.9999% skill and 50.0001% luck. I am saying this even though I win about 85% percent of the tourneys that I go to, unless it is a Marquis. I have a 50% record at Marquis. The Marquis and any booster draw tournaments are about 60% luck and 40% skill.

[webhead817]

Originally posted by Marshal Law
Look again. The *posts* have grey areas. The *poll* is two choices - luck or skill. No middle ground, hence no grey area.

That's on purpose...by polarizing the choices, it's inspired some good discussion. :)

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by webhead817
That's on purpose...by polarizing the choices, it's inspired some good discussion. :)

Stepped in that one, didn't I?

[Clix776]

Originally posted by Marshal Law
Originally posted by webhead817
That's on purpose...by polarizing the choices, it's inspired some good discussion.
Stepped in that one, didn't I? Well, you can borrow the hose to wash off your shoes once I'm done with it.

Have a Clean Day,
Gary E. Poisson

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by deadalus13
When you add Marquis tourneys, Battle Royales, or any other kind of booster draws to the mix, luck becomes an even bigger factor. How many people saw someone pull a Thor at the Ultimates Marquis and proceed to decimate his opponents?

Funny thing is, I view sealed events as often the best test of a player's skill. There are often the circumstances like you describe, when some players just pull better grossly better draws. The MM pre-release in our area was dominated by players who pulled Northstar, and eventually won by someone who pulled 2 X perplex, Northstar, Domino, and Blink. I once won a draft event (basically before it even started) where my pull was U-Thor, XP-Green Goblin, and CJ-Green Arrow Vet - and I passed a third unique to keep the Green Arrow. I've also played an Unleashed Marquee where my best piece was Experienced Queen Bee. Having said all that, I've found a player's ability to construct a workable team with limited resources, and adjust their tactics on the fly accordingly (often against superior teams), is a true test of skill. How someone performs when circumstances are pre-set isn't a high test of skill - how they adjust to circumstances they have limited control of (or have yanked out of their control) and then bring them back under control, that is.

I have played a tournament where I not only rolled 3 critical hits to my opponent's 2 critical misses, but where none of my figures besides for GL missed a single roll no matter how high of a roll they needed (GL missed all three of his with double ones, double 2s and double 3s consectutively. It felt really weird, like the laws of probability were being bent.)

I judged a Unleashed Marquee that had similar happen with Green Lantern. Really oddball, the guy won due to his support pieces being spot on but basically GL was never good for more than a self injuring taxi.

At the MM Premiere, I think I rolled a 7 or higher about 3 times total the entire tournament - I even managed to Prob Control a critical miss into another critical miss. Still managed to just miss being one of the final four by some quirk of scoring - which only makes it clear that the skill aspect was proven, it was the luck that ruled the day.

[Captain_Comet]

I voted for skill, but luck is a huge factor. It was luck + skill that allowed my rookie Domino to defeat Gladiator with only backup from Deadpool.