View Full Version : Thor's Hammer and Wonder Woman's Blades, Whats The Difference..............
....when comparing them to their magical bonus against Superman?
Now there are several comic book instances where Superman cuts himself on a magical blade (usually Wonder Womans), be it a sword or knife, almost effortlessly, so why wouldnt Thors magical hammer get such a super bonus on Kal as well?
I mean, seriously. Not trying to start a Marvel v DC war (well, any more than I normally do anyway :) ), as I myself believe Superman would defeat Thor more than not, but Im just curious why Thors hammer wouldnt get the same "weakness to magic" bonus against Kal as Wonder Womans magical blades can and have done in the past?
Sure a bladed weapon and a blunt weapon do different kinds of damage, I get that 100%. But Superman gets cut with such mystical blades almost easily, near effortlessly, yet he can take hits from Thors hammer as if it was a simple durable blunt weapon. No mystical bonuses against Superman whatsoever. Why?
Again, not trying to start a Thor v. Superman thread here, Im simply curious why several times in his own universe we see Superman get hurt easily from magical means or weapons, but against Thors hammer (which is obviously magical) this isnt so, and whats more, many of us believe this is Right and Just.
Why is this? Any thoughts, or opinions? Would it be too much of a slaughter for Thor to defeat Superman if the writers made this as so, and in some eyes as it should be, so they simply discard Kals magical vulnerability altogether?
Anyone interested in discussing this, lets keep this thread FRIENDLY. No DC fanboy or Marvel zombie talks. Lets see if we cant get some reasonable, intelligent, and rational thoughts on why one is cannon and the other is crud.
Believe WWs blades should get the bonus (and have) but Thors hammer shouldnt, why? Believe Thors hammer should get the same magical plus against Superman, speak your peace.
Friendly discussions all, lets see if its within us to do so here. :)
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 01:54
Wonder Woman's blade is enchanted to cut. So it does.
Mjolnir is enchanted to grant it's specific power set to it's wielder. Sure, Uru metal is incredibly strong, and with his hammer Thor delivers quite a blow. But magical damage is not an element of Mjolnir's enchantment.
green_knight
03/03/2005, 01:57
Ok DTM, here's my thought.
I don't think there's a difference between Thor's hammer and Shazam's fist, purely as weapons. I compare it to him because he seems more similar to the Hammer than WW's blades. There is no difference to me in how magical they are, or there ability to harm Supes.
The difference, I believe, is in how they are wielded. WW and Shazam have super speed, and Thor doesn't. At least not "on their level". So Thor's attacks are like you trying to hit a fly. Sometimes you'll get it, but most of the time it'll just get swatted away, and fly right back unhindered. If you could move as fast, you'd get a better hit on it, not counting lucky shots or good trajectory prediction.
Going with the speed thing, even if Thor hits Supes, the big S will probably be able to use his speed to minimize the impact of each hit, by either dodging them into glancing blows, rolling with it effectively, or moving into the hit so it travels less distance and does less harm.
But even a solid hit with a magic hammer that negates Supes's "force field" doesn't negate the fact that he is built more durable than any human. He's still super dense, tough, and effectively designed. Well enough to take Thor's hits, anyway, as we have seen.
I'm sure there's more to it, but this is where my thoughts are leading me at the moment.
green_knight
03/03/2005, 01:59
Goldenage got his reply up while I was still writing mine. Good point, GA, I knew there were things I was forgetting!
Where does it say Wonder Womans generic, though magical, blades are specifically enchanted to cut? Simply because it is a magical, bladed weapon, it is enchancted to cut? By that same token, wouldnt Thors hammer then also be enchanted to pound?
And GK Im not just talking about hard superspeed hits, Im talking about Superman getting cut easily by WWs bladed weapons. No thrust, no speed, practically just him handling it alone. Yet Thors mightiest blows, after they land, do not get this same bonus. Why?
skyounkin
03/03/2005, 02:07
Thor's hammer was made by Odin, WW weapons were made by Hepetus (SP?- I know I got that one waaaayyy wrong) who is the forger of the gods. WW weapons were made for anyone, Thor's hammer was made for Thor, or those worthy to weild Thor's power. I think Rucka is also now implying that the amazon forger created WW current weapons, which would then mean they are special weapons blessed by the gods. I think now the only thing Diana has that was made by the Gods is her lasso, and even she says that her lasso is not a weapon.
GA hit the nail on the head.
skyounkin
03/03/2005, 02:10
The whole why did Thors hammer not hurt Superman might be because of the differnces in universes...maybe were they fought was the DCU and there Mjolnir wasn't in the same realm that it's enchanments came from so it was weaker or losing power.....maybe like Wally in the MU and there being no speed force?...Maybe?
Or I'll pull the trump card on you DTM....
WRITERS PEROGATIVE!!!
:p
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 02:20
As for Captain Marvel's fists and Thors Hammer...
Same as WW/Thor:
Cap is enchanted to be strong and do damage with the Strength of Hercules/Stamina of Atlas and Power of Zeus... all magical gifts that mean he can hit you real hard and do gigantic damage.
Once again... Neither Thor or Mjolnir are magically enchanted to do extra damage.
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 02:22
Originally posted by skyounkin
WRITERS PEROGATIVE!!!
I agree, you can't really look at this too hard or you'll go cross-eyed!!!:cross-eye
skyounkin
03/03/2005, 02:23
Oh yeah, Odin didn't make Mjolnir, the dwaves did...
My bad...WW weapons being made by Hepetus (SP?) an actual god, might argue that they are more powerful than Mjolnir...
I don't believe it, but the argument could be had....
So CM is magically enchanted to do "extra damage" and WWs blades are magically enchanted to "cut things"? Sorry guys, I dont buy it.
Heck, Thor himself is a mystical being, A Norse God, so in fact we have a magical weapon being weilded by a mystical Godlike being, and neither of those two count against Kals weakness to magic? Again, Im sorry, I dont buy it.
skyounkin
03/03/2005, 02:38
What are you trying to buy exactly? In actuality they should both be about equal in hurting Superman, "in theory" but then again according to Homer Simpson Communisim was a good idea- "in theory"......
:)
Or we can do this, take a hammer and hit yourself in the palm of your hand...do you bleed?...are you cut?....probably not...unless you used the claw end then you were just stupid...but I digress...now go run your finger along a knife...does it cut you?...do you bleed...
We all saw Superman catching Thors hammer, just because he didn't go "OW- That hurt you bastard!!!" Doesn't mean that it didn't hurt him.
"in theory"
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 03:06
Originally posted by DTM
So CM is magically enchanted to do "extra damage" and WWs blades are magically enchanted to "cut things"? Sorry guys, I dont buy it.
Heck, Thor himself is a mystical being, A Norse God, so in fact we have a magical weapon being weilded by a mystical Godlike being, and neither of those two count against Kals weakness to magic? Again, Im sorry, I dont buy it.
If you're actually looking for exact reasoning you're sillier than I thought.:p
Here's a curve for ya... Lion-O's sword ALSO cut Superman.... LION-O'S SWORD OF OMENS IS MORE POWERFUL THAN MJOLNIR!!!! THUNDERCATS HOOOOOOO!!!
As far as Thor being magic??? Where did you read that? He's a god, true... but not magical. His mythos HAS magical beings but he's not one.
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 03:22
Y'know... I understand how you feel DTM. For me, thought, its Popeye. I don't buy that he gets super strength from spinach. But darn it all, every time I watch him on the tube... there it is again; he eats the spinach and... POW... super strength. So I says to myself "Self, there's gotta be something there!"
I've come up with a theory that Popeye is actually always that strong but uses Spinach as a psychological crutch to rise above an intense inferiority complex he's had since he lost his eye as a child.
DTM,
You can't change what has happened and what is. If you're really looking for an answer to why Superman can be cut by Wonder Woman’s sword and Knocked out by Captain Marvel but is unaffected by Thor and Mjolnir... come up with your own reasoning. That way, at least you'll be satisfied with the answer.
Who said Mjolnir didn't hurt Supes?
If Thor had thrown a different hammer at Superman, I doubt it would have knocked him through a building like Mjolnir did.
Perhaps it didn't have the effect some people wanted because Superman is more durable than anyone Thor has faced, and stronger than Thor--enabling him to catch the hammer in mid-swing.
LittleApril
03/03/2005, 10:48
I chalk it up to bad writing, Superman shoulda been KO'd after that initial blow in the recent crossover. The real reason it dosent work the same as wonder womens blades is that DC has it in all their contracts, "Superman dosent lose, unless its to batman"
I'd agree with thugit, for me he did hurt Supes, just not as much as I'd expected it... If they had shown Supes catching Mjornir with one hand, smacking Thor in the next frame, and then Supes holding his injured hand after Thor fell then I'd completely agree...
Canada Maestro
03/03/2005, 12:19
Originally posted by thugit
Who said Mjolnir didn't hurt Supes?
If Thor had thrown a different hammer at Superman, I doubt it would have knocked him through a building like Mjolnir did.
Perhaps it didn't have the effect some people wanted because Superman is more durable than anyone Thor has faced, and stronger than Thor--enabling him to catch the hammer in mid-swing.
One other thing that helps me sleep at night (kidding) is that Supes with his super speed could most likely have at least somewhat rolled with the blow. I don't remember the panel exactly but I think it's possible.
As a marvel zombie, I was actually happy with the Thor/Superman stuff. Granted, I don't read too much into Supes' magical vulnerability so I'm content with the idea that blades that are mystical will cut Supes, hammers that are magically durable and grant the carrier super powers will not shatter when they hit Supes but won't do much beyond that. Other than that, I don't really think about it too much.
And as for the fight, I like to think Thor put up a strong showing. He got his shots in and took a pounding as well from possibly the most powerful superhero. Of course I'm also adding intermediate fighting going on off panel while Busiek and Perez were busy showing the other characters. Thor lost, it happens. Who knows what would happen if they fight again. Only the writer does. :)
kky101023
03/03/2005, 12:26
Typically, I'll give Superman the edge over Thor probaby 4 out of every 5 times they fight. I do agree that Superman should've been hurt a lot more than he was (or at least he was showing). Superman catching Mjolnir can be explained, in my mind at least, by Supes using his speed to roll with the attack and, as opposed to totally blocking it, simply didn't let Thor have the hammer back. I'm thinking more along the lines of dodging then grabbing hold and not letting go. Personally, I would like to see Superman take on the Sentry, or maybe even Genis Vell. I think the Sentry would waste Supes easy, seeing as how Sentry was described as having fought Galactus to a standstill. The Genis Vell fight would be really cool, though.:grin:
SumYungGai
03/03/2005, 12:36
Superman's vulnerability to magic is simply a writer's crutch. It varies from writer to writer, and depends on the circumstance. The only way to make sense of it comic-wise is that the effect of magic on Superman is variable. On one hand, a vampire can mind control him and can force him to stab Wonder Woman in the chest. On the other, he has put his body in front of a magical blast that was going to disentegrate the entire island of Themiscyra. Both are pretty ridiculous, but they are both a part of post-Crisis continuity.
I think that you cant compare Thor with Superman. Thor has all those utility powers built in (teleport, weather control ...) but Supermans powers have more sinergy (super strength, super speed).
As for power levels, its like comparing Superman with Silver Surfer. Light is not quick enough to catch the oscar statue!
...
And I dont think that WW is quickier than Thor ...
SumYungGai
03/03/2005, 12:53
Wonder Woman has the speed of Mercury. She would run rings around Thor like he was standing still.
About Sentry, his limits are not well known so ist hard to compare ...
Genis would be a more fair fight against superman than Thor because, even if hes phisically weaker, he can take enough attacks from supes and is signifcantly quickier than Thor. But still, hes not the right match for Superman.
...
I think that fairer matches would be:
Superman vs The Sentry
Wonder Woman vs Thor
Captain Atom vs Genis Vel
Captain Marvel vs Gladiator
There are still no one to match Green Lantern or Silver Surfer in each universe, in my opinion ...
Maniac_nmt
03/03/2005, 13:04
Originally posted by GoldenAge
As for Captain Marvel's fists and Thors Hammer...
Same as WW/Thor:
Cap is enchanted to be strong and do damage with the Strength of Hercules/Stamina of Atlas and Power of Zeus... all magical gifts that mean he can hit you real hard and do gigantic damage.
Once again... Neither Thor or Mjolnir are magically enchanted to do extra damage.
Except he blew up a bridge as a teen-ager in a single shot with Mjolnir.
Mjolnir works similar to CM's enhancements. "Who so ever holds this hammer, if he be worthy. Shall posses the power of Thor." It grants a stupidly rediculous ammount of powers. From control of the magnetic spectrum, to weather manipulation on a massive scale, to dimmensional travel, to 'flight', to energy absorption of any spectrum (that the writer feels like having it do that story), etc.
One idea is simply that Superman is worthy to wield the hammer, and used his super-speed to slow the blow down.
Yes ... I have heard that story of her being as quick as Mercury, but I always thought that it was just an way to saying that she was faster than normal human ... not that she was actually godly quick, as Captain Marvel is.
Originally posted by PANZER
Yes ... I have heard that story of her being as quick as Mercury, but I always thought that it was just an way to saying that she was faster than normal human ... not that she was actually godly quick, as Captain Marvel is.
Nope.
Her speed actually enables her to keep pace with the Flash, so long as he doesn't turn on the afterburners.
She's MUCH faster than Thor.
ANYONE fighting Wonder Woman is in trouble.
She's extraordinarily strong, fast and durable, and she has the ultimate weapon--her lasso.
No matter who you are, if she gets you caught in it, you WON'T get out.
DeonBeast
03/03/2005, 13:14
Thor's hammer is enchanted in various ways, but not to cause grievous wounds. It always returns, channels and absorbs power, makes portals, can only be lifted by one who is worthy of it, controls the weather (mostly lightning & rain), as well as numerous magical effects... but for purposes of hitting it is deemed 'indestructible' and dependant on the force utilized when thrown. Many superpowered villains have withstood the hammer when prepared for it. Count Nefaria, Juggernaut and Thanos are three I can think of that took shots without flinching. Nefaria is science created, Juggernaut is mystically powered and Thanos is both. If Mjornir was enhanced for damage it would be more of a threat to Superman directly. Wonder Woman's blade is enchanted to cut thus the Man of Steel might as well be the Man of Butter. I'd say the same if Black Knight's sword was utilized (apart from the pesky blood curse), it would work equally as well.
The threat from Thor and his hammer is from the magical abilities they have. KC Superman was nearly defeated by Captain Marvel's lightning and that's at the peak of Superman's power in the future... I'd place odds that summoned lightning from Thor would do pretty close to the same thing... and the mystical blasts wouldn't be fun either.
But while a physical blow from Thor's hammer would hurt, it isn't the main threat to Superman and is completely in the realm of believability that he could catch it or take a hit without shattering every bone in his body.
Canada Maestro
03/03/2005, 13:20
Originally posted by thugit
ANYONE fighting Wonder Woman is in trouble.
She's extraordinarily strong, fast and durable, and she has the ultimate weapon--her big beautiful blue eyes.
No matter who you are, if she gets you caught in them, you WON'T get out.
That's closer to what I was expecting.
And yeah, Wonder Woman is definitely at the top of the pile and very under-estimated by those who don't read her book or JLA.
Again, no one is saying Thors Hammer didnt hurt Superman. It surely did, but it didnt seem to get any magical PLUS that maybe it should have. What I am saying is why can Superman be cut by magial blades near easily, practically effortlessly, yet Thors magical hammer didnt pound Supermans bones to dust when he was hit.
Well, it DID draw blood from him--something that very rarely happens.
DeonBeast
03/03/2005, 13:25
Keeping pace with Flash? Is it any wonder why I don't read much DC? Try to keep with character's power levels after the writer's stopped licking hallucinagenic toads...
Greetinx :)
Has WW's power changed? Since when did she gain Super speed? :)
Best Regards
Dorian
Originally posted by DeonBeast
Keeping pace with Flash? Is it any wonder why I don't read much DC? Try to keep with character's power levels after the writer's stopped licking hallucinagenic toads...
I think you should re-read my post...
DeonBeast
03/03/2005, 13:41
Originally posted by thugit
Nope.
Her speed actually enables her to keep pace with the Flash, so long as he doesn't turn on the afterburners.
She's MUCH faster than Thor.
Ok... Flash is insanely quicker than Quicksilver and can go the near or past the speed of light... regular speed for the Flash IS insane...
What part am I supposed to be re-reading?
Read Tower of Babel--she challenges Flash to a race and explains that she has the speed of Mercury.
Flash responds, "I'm sorry--I thought you were fast."
She can move at super-speeds and can fly alongside the Flash until he decides it's time for him to win the race. (The same thing he does with Superman.)
Avatar Jack
03/03/2005, 13:47
Here's my advice DTM: when comparing two characters from Marvel and DC, do not take cross-overs into consideration. It's as simple as that. Superman has said that Captian Marvel has the advanage against him because Capt.'s powers are magic based, not because his fist are magially enhanced to break whatever they hit. Thor's powers are magic based; along with that logic, Thor should have the advanaged against Superman. Now, with Supe's superspeed (for the record, Thor also has superspeed; it's not as fast, but it's fast enough that it balances their power out) and many writer's fear of protraying Thor as powerful as he could be, things become blurry. Since I do count cross-overs, and thus do not consider JLA/Avenagers, I say, in my opinion, that Thor beats Superman more often than not.
How about writing Superman as powerful as he could be?
DeonBeast
03/03/2005, 13:52
Originally posted by thugit
Read Tower of Babel--she challenges Flash to a race and explains that she has the speed of Mercury.
Flash responds, "I'm sorry--I thought you were fast."
She can move at super-speeds and can fly alongside the Flash until he decides it's time for him to win the race. (The same thing he does with Superman.)
Once again I say the writer's should stop abusing substances.
I go with the theory that Mjolnir is not specifcally enchanted to do extra damage and therefore does the normal amount of damage that an indestructable hammer thrown by someone with great super stregnth would do. It would would plow through a normal human like they were made of tin foil. It's impact knocks Superman through a building, but Supes is just as indestructable as Mjolnir.
WW's blade is specially enchanted to cut thorugh anything. It activates Supes weakness to magic because it carries that specific enchantment. Mjolnir is not enchanted to smash through any and everything.
Also the fact that Supes being "worthy" to hold Mjolnir is something akin to someone having the raw willpower to take control of a GL ring from it's rightful wielder. If that's the case then it probably makes Supes even stronger against it .The same way as if Thor were to throw Mjolnir at Beta Ray Bil and BRB were ready for it, he'd probably catch it and gain control of it.
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 14:04
Tower of Babel is one of the best stories in the DC Universe, for all you Bat non believers you will see why Batman is the SHiz-Nitz!!! :cool:
And Yes Wonder Woman is Quick but Flash is way quicker -NUFF SAID!!!
Thor's Hammer did hurt Supes but it did not put him done for the count, now had Thor hit him with Mijonlr and then followed up with a nice mud hole stomping, he might have beat Supes, but Supes is stronger than Thor [and I'm a Marvel Head!]
The only thing that made it worth seeing Thor get beat by Superman was watching the rest of the Marvel guys Jolly Stomp the big blue boy scout, man that panel is priceless, Hercules cracks his hammer while beating down Supes. :p
For the record i think that the Hammer should have hurt him a bit more but since Supes is a demi-god among men he got hurt the way he should have, I mean after all, Thor drew first blood!:devious:
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 14:34
Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
Except he blew up a bridge as a teen-ager in a single shot with Mjolnir.
Mjolnir works similar to CM's enhancements. "Who so ever holds this hammer, if he be worthy. Shall posses the power of Thor." It grants a stupidly rediculous ammount of powers. From control of the magnetic spectrum, to weather manipulation on a massive scale, to dimmensional travel, to 'flight', to energy absorption of any spectrum (that the writer feels like having it do that story), etc.
One idea is simply that Superman is worthy to wield the hammer, and used his super-speed to slow the blow down.
You're right. I forgot for a moment that Thor was a cheap rip-off of Captain Marvel. Instead of a magical lightning bolt he got a magical hammer. :cheeky:
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 14:41
That is so not true! :mad:
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 14:47
Originally posted by DeonBeast
Keeping pace with Flash? Is it any wonder why I don't read much DC? Try to keep with character's power levels after the writer's stopped licking hallucinagenic toads...
Umm... Sentry, Genis-Vel, Silver Surfer, Thanos, Gladiator... Talk about power levels...
BTW: Wonder Womans possessed the Speed of Mercury since 1947... That's continuity NO ONE can match!
SumYungGai
03/03/2005, 15:03
Originally posted by thugit
How about writing Superman as powerful as he could be?
Then every fight he was in would last a couple of panels. Supes would just use a combination of X-Ray, microscopic and heat vision to look into people's brains and then reduce them to vegetables (see Manchester Black, Action Comics #775). Alternately, he could do the four other things he supposedly did when he was willing to take the kid gloves off and kill his enemies.
Forget red suns, magic and kryptonite--Superman's greatest weakness is his own fear that he'll accidently kill someone.
That's my point.
Saying that Thor written as powerful as he could be would beat Superman is forgetting that Kal doesn't ever use his powers to max potential....
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 15:15
Originally posted by SumYungGai
Then every fight he was in would last a couple of panels. Supes would just use a combination of X-Ray, microscopic and heat vision to look into people's brains and then reduce them to vegetables (see Manchester Black, Action Comics #775). Alternately, he could do the four other things he supposedly did when he was willing to take the kid gloves off and kill his enemies.
Forget red suns, magic and kryptonite--Superman's greatest weakness is his own fear that he'll accidently kill someone.
Even when he was under Poison Ivy's control and she made him "evil" he was still holding back.... It's Ma and pa kent's fault!
SumYungGai
03/03/2005, 15:20
Originally posted by thugit
That's my point.
I know--I've got your back! :grin:
DeonBeast
03/03/2005, 15:24
Thor doesn't use his powers to maximum potential either. He's quite mindful when it comes to being around fragile mortals, quite like Superman and many other superheroes.
Fully unleashed, an all-out Thor and Superman battle would shake and rend the world. Superman would win the majority of the time I would wager. But the wildcard factor of Mjornir could change the tides.
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 15:34
I think Thor tends to use his full powers way more than Supes, I mean he's a Norse God, fighting is what he does. And killing is not a problem for him, But ol Supes He holds back, he won't let loose until he has to, and that's why he died fighting Doomsday. Had he opened up a can of Whoop Arse from the get go, he'd killed Doomsday and would not have died. But alas poor Supes:ermm:
DeonBeast
03/03/2005, 15:36
Originally posted by GoldenAge
Umm... Sentry, Genis-Vel, Silver Surfer, Thanos, Gladiator... Talk about power levels...
BTW: Wonder Womans possessed the Speed of Mercury since 1947... That's continuity NO ONE can match!
I don't know about Sentry or Genis-Vel but Surfer, Thanos and Gladiator all have had pretty good continuity on their power levels.
And how many times has Wonder Woman utilized it? Being fast is one thing, being comparable to Flash is a TOTALLY different story. If she had that kind of speed I could see a far different KC ending... super speed, super strength, mystic sword of slice-anythingness, a willingness to kill... You do the math.
Rocketman
03/03/2005, 15:44
Its just another example of Dc's inability to accept that limitations make characters more interesting, not less. For the record, thor should have wiped the floor with superman. Busieks reasoning was that superman weas stronger and faster. So the next time we see batman taking on an amazo, or captain america against the scorpion we should see the same basic result.
Oh and there is simply no way you can accept that Shazam hitting superman powered by the gods is magical and the gods themselves are not.
As for wonder woman...the minute they over powered her, they ruined her.
DeonBeast
03/03/2005, 15:56
Limitations are good, especially when dealing with having to balance out power levels. One superhero typically has a vaste rogues gallery... each able to challenge a superhero. Now if you give a character insanely boggling power you ultimately have to give the villains power to rival the staggering power of the protagonist. Now as the list of villains with powers to destroy the Earth grow and grow, there becomes a lack of credibility to the comic. How can one man, super or not, maintain a world where there are HUNDREDS of supervillains with comparable powers, many of which aren't even from the Earth and willing to destroy the entire planet? Nearly any Superman villain has the ability to do it.
That and writers giving powers to characters for the 'cool' factor instead of following limits... breaking previously written backstory, making a character vague and even more unbelievable. It upsets balance and makes stories contradict each other... one moment a superhero is straining to stop a train, next he's lifting a mountain without a grunt. It doesn't make for a good read imho.
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 16:00
Originally posted by DeonBeast
I don't know about Sentry or Genis-Vel but Surfer, Thanos and Gladiator all have had pretty good continuity on their power levels.
And how many times has Wonder Woman utilized it? Being fast is one thing, being comparable to Flash is a TOTALLY different story. If she had that kind of speed I could see a far different KC ending... super speed, super strength, mystic sword of slice-anythingness, a willingness to kill... You do the math.
Of those above only Gladiator has a specific set of powers (intentional superman clone)
Give me a list of Silver Surfer's powers. How about Thanos'... I bet you I can add to those lists no matter how extensive. Did you know that Silver Surfer could see backward in time??? Blah. BTW: You don't even want to go into Genis-Vel and Sentry. (Sentry should have been left as a mini as far as I'm concerned)
After all of that... you're not listening. She can't manipulate the Speed Force, but she does possess the Speed of Mercury placing her, along with Captain Marvel and Superman, amungst the fastest individuals in the DC universe. She used that speed in JLA/Avengers... She uses that speed every time she blocks a hail of bullets with her bracelet (to block one would mean she was moving that hand in excess of 3000 fps. (over 2000 mph - speed of sound = 761 mph) - and I've seen her block dozens of bullets at once.)
Perfectstorm
03/03/2005, 16:07
But Thanos, Surfer, galactus, Genis-Vel are all cosmic beings. They have caps, but unless they are facing each other the low end of their powers is around the level of high end normal heros.
And we have yet to see sentrys top points.
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 16:11
Originally posted by DeonBeast
Limitations are good, especially when dealing with having to balance out power levels. One superhero typically has a vaste rogues gallery... each able to challenge a superhero. Now if you give a character insanely boggling power you ultimately have to give the villains power to rival the staggering power of the protagonist. Now as the list of villains with powers to destroy the Earth grow and grow, there becomes a lack of credibility to the comic. How can one man, super or not, maintain a world where there are HUNDREDS of supervillains with comparable powers, many of which aren't even from the Earth and willing to destroy the entire planet? Nearly any Superman villain has the ability to do it.
That and writers giving powers to characters for the 'cool' factor instead of following limits... breaking previously written backstory, making a character vague and even more unbelievable. It upsets balance and makes stories contradict each other... one moment a superhero is straining to stop a train, next he's lifting a mountain without a grunt. It doesn't make for a good read imho.
So what you're saying is that, with the addition of Sentry - a being more powerful than Thor - the New Avengers (and Marvel in general) is(are) trash. How about Thor? Shouldn't he leave Midgard? He's way too powerful. Ever enjoy reading about Galactus, Thanos, SS, or even DOOM??? Pretty powerful guys, yet they seem to have fans.:cheeky:
Right now, of all the comics published, I would rank Superman as #1 and maybe WW as #2 (she purposefully blinded herself for gods sake!!!) when it comes to heart and soul. Superman's problems make being a mutant look like a day at the candy store.
Before you expostulate on your personal standards you should get to know what you're talking about.:rolleyes:
wolfwood13
03/03/2005, 16:12
in the dcu, gods are actually gods. in the marvel u, asgardians are NOT gods, they are extradimensional beings. thor is not a god, he is an asgardian. i was pretty sure i read somewhere, asgadians are beings that were altered by the celestials, kind of like the inhumans but more powerful. do asgardians use magic? yes. are they magical? no, no more than humans are. thor is not magical, but he does use a magic weapon.
also it was established in jla/avengers that EVERYTHING including magic, was a little more powerful in the dcu, so that would explain why a magic sword from the dcu would hurt superman than thor's hammer.
LittleApril
03/03/2005, 16:13
Im really looking forward to learning more about the Sentry, from what i hear is is one of the most powerful people in the marvel universe, all we really saw him do was rip carnage in half. Cant wait to learn more. I hope he gets a monthly comic soon.
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 16:14
Originally posted by Perfectstorm
But Thanos, Surfer, galactus, Genis-Vel are all cosmic beings. They have caps, but unless they are facing each other the low end of their powers is around the level of high end normal heros.
And we have yet to see sentrys top points.
Those people interact with earth all the time. What's your point again?
Give me a list of Silver Surfer's powers. How about Thanos'... I bet you I can add to those lists no matter how extensive.
Well ... Superman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman have similar powers, do you think thats better?
DeonBeast
03/03/2005, 16:18
The continuity with Silver Surfer and Thanos is based upon a growing power base. Silver Surfer gathers more strength through absorbing cosmic energy. It's why at one time he can be knocked down and out by Thing and next stand up to Thor. It's all dependent on his energy level at the time. Much akin to Superman being a solar battery. And the power cosmic is a mixed bag of tricks, it is meant to be diverse.
Thanos has always been foul. His character has been based on aquiring more and more power. But this steady growth of power has ALWAYS been there. While majority of what he does is very enigmatic and not based on set limitations, it represents him as a threat to galactic order, not just to Earth. Uberstrong supervillains aren't the issue, Earth-based mainstream superheroes without limitations are.
SumYungGai
03/03/2005, 16:22
Originally posted by Rocketman
Its just another example of Dc's inability to accept that limitations make characters more interesting, not less. For the record, thor should have wiped the floor with superman. Busieks reasoning was that superman weas stronger and faster. So the next time we see batman taking on an amazo, or captain america against the scorpion we should see the same basic result.
Oh and there is simply no way you can accept that Shazam hitting superman powered by the gods is magical and the gods themselves are not.
As for wonder woman...the minute they over powered her, they ruined her.
I find it to be completely opposite. The limitations that DC places on their heroes are far more compelling to me. The limitations of DC heroes are usually moral ones. Superman is forced to care about the world he lives in. At any time, he could just give it all up and set himself up as god of Earth. He could end all war and hunger on Earth if he wanted, but to do so would be to take away people's lives and free will. Everytime he exercises his powers he knowlingly and consciously does it for the greater good.
This is opposed to Spiderman's dilemnas, which are usually, "I used to be a geek", "I don't have enough money", "why don't people understand me". There's nothing wrong with this at all. I just like more abstract dilemna.
Incidently, Wonder Woman has been powered down over years. Her lasso used to be a Lasso of Compulsion. If she tied you up, you were forced to do what she told you to do. "Bash you brains out with your hammer" would be a completely viable command. They reduced it to Truth, because she was ridiculously powerful before.
In my opinion, they ruined her character when the took away any hint of playfulness and reduced the character to the stoic warrior archetype. But that's another discussion.
GoldenAge
03/03/2005, 16:23
Originally posted by PANZER
Give me a list of Silver Surfer's powers. How about Thanos'... I bet you I can add to those lists no matter how extensive.
Well ... Superman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman have similar powers, do you think thats better?
My point was to show that both universes have powerful beings and that there are great stories to be had every month. Too many non-DC readers are stuck in a paradigm wrapped around the concept that DC is ALL POWERFUL and, thus, boring. Nothing could be farther from the truth – its totally untrue.
I enjoy DC FAR more than Marvel but only because the stories resonate with me. Another’s tastes may be different and that’s fine. But to say one is worse than the other is a pure and simple display of ignorance.
Originally posted by SumYungGai
I find it to be completely opposite. The limitations that DC places on their heroes are far more compelling to me. The limitations of DC heroes are usually moral ones. Superman is forced to care about the world he lives in. At any time, he could just give it all up and set himself up as god of Earth. He could end all war and hunger on Earth if he wanted, but to do so would be to take away people's lives and free will. Everytime he exercises his powers he knowlingly and consciously does it for the greater good.
This is opposed to Spiderman's dilemnas, which are usually, "I used to be a geek", "I don't have enough money", "why don't people understand me". There's nothing wrong with this at all. I just like more abstract dilemna.
Brilliant!!!
Originally posted by SumYungGai
In my opinion, they ruined her character when the took away any hint of playfulness and reduced the character to the stoic warrior archetype. But that's another discussion.
Right on. That's what makes the cartoon version of Wonder Woman so cool....
Great post.
DeonBeast
03/03/2005, 16:38
Originally posted by GoldenAge
So what you're saying is that, with the addition of Sentry - a being more powerful than Thor - the New Avengers (and Marvel in general) is(are) trash. How about Thor? Shouldn't he leave Midgard? He's way too powerful. Ever enjoy reading about Galactus, Thanos, SS, or even DOOM??? Pretty powerful guys, yet they seem to have fans.:cheeky:
Right now, of all the comics published, I would rank Superman as #1 and maybe WW as #2 (she purposefully blinded herself for gods sake!!!) when it comes to heart and soul. Superman's problems make being a mutant look like a day at the candy store.
Before you expostulate on your personal standards you should get to know what you're talking about.:rolleyes:
#1 - I have never read anything with Sentry in it or the New Avengers. It quite well could be trash. Bad writing is not limited to DC. Marvel has a fair share of stinkers. And DC doesn't always have bad writers either. I loved KC (although I really REALLY disliked the Gog series). But the problem is the consistancy. Having a hero unable to dodge a lumbering musclebound goon one moment and moving at superspeeds the next, I don't see it without a reason. Every one of the villains you stated have reasons. Not to say they haven't been written badly now and again (Heck, have you seen the first Fantastic Four movie??).
#2 - It's great that you enjoy the comics. The stories probably are pretty terrific. But haven't they started setting some parameters on the heroes? Some writers are actually starting to get themselves off the drugs. Some aren't.
#3 - My library of comics is mostly the older issues. I occasionally will purchase the odd comic but it is rare, few and far between. I'm not an expert by any means. But I like the idea of being able to pick up an issue of any comic and see a character for what they are, not having them change up every issue.
First issue - "Ow! This thug nearly knocked me out with a yellow lamp!"
Later issue - "I'm the most powerful being in the universe!"
Rocketman
03/03/2005, 18:18
Actually Thor is half asgardian, his mother is the GOD Gaea, sister of set and chthon. Elder god, mytical life force of the earth. So by your reasoning still a god.
As for the wonderwoman bracelet thing...fine...so does thor with a magical hammer. Bullets, laser beams.
THe problem with the character is that he is too powerful for his universe. THings are too easy for him when he is written correctly. And thats why he lives half of his life in asgard.
Still with his power level there are maybe one or two earth bound folk who can approach him. I'm unsure about sentry...but once again I don't buy the power levels because some upstart writer just stated it is so.
But say he's on the same level. WHo else is up there?
On earth every other superhero has that level of power.
And it just doesnt work for me.
SPiderman may moan about his rent or his problems but at least i believe it in context of the story. He goes out even knowing that he may be hurt and killed far more easily than the alien, the other alien, the guy with the alien ring, the amazon princess made of clay, the servant of the "speed force" etc. The only one I'd say is an actual hero in the JLA is batman. As for the rest of DC--nightwing is probably the most heroic character out there.
With the exception of thor the 616 heroes are human. THor learns humility and honor from humanity. But the real heroes, the ones who get hurt, who risk are all human beings. Thats what makes them have more heart than all of the JLA combined.
Look I buy DC comics...I read them...but man, their heroes are the lucky, the impossible, the ones I would have no desire to have a conversation with if they existed, cause they have nothing in common with normal humanity.
Excesses in power, always seem to demonstrate a lack of character.
2 cents
Batman is the most NON-human hero in DC anymore.
No one can beat him, he's smarter than everyone....
Batman as he's written now is boring.
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 18:44
BORING? THUGIT Obviously you haven't read Tower of Babel, Batman is far from boring, he is what makes DC good. He and Ollie, Green Arrow is way cooler than just baout everyone in the JLA save Batman, and he is just a regular guy who's willing to go the distance.
I have read Tower of Babel and I HATE the way Batman is written in that as well as pretty much anything else.
Obviously YOU haven't read anything by Dennis O'Neill and Neal Adams when they were writing/drawing Batman.
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 18:57
Why? Why do you hate him written as what he is, The Greatest Detective?
When was the last time he solved anything?
He's a super-ninja now. He plots and schemes against his allies--he doesn't "detect" anything.
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 19:06
LOL!!!!!!! I guess he's been slacking a little lately...
He did beat Hawkman and steal his Costume in the Batman/Superman books! :p
And he made me like Superman [in the Batman/Supeman Books]
maybe he's "detected" all that there is to detect????
SumYungGai
03/03/2005, 19:07
Originally posted by Rocketman
Excesses in power, always seem to demonstrate a lack of character.
Then how do you explain Dr. Doom and Magneto? Both are extremely powerful, and both have detailed personalities, motivations and characters. They're as well fleshed out as Superman, Spiderman and many of the other iconic characters.
Tower of Babel was junk. Not for the moral issues it raised, but for creating the UberBat who can solve any problem with a deus ex machina.
How can anyone build a bullet that can vibrate at the same frequency as the Flash? How the heck would you power something like that? Can Batman mainline the Speed Force too? It doesn't even make sense for the Flash to do that. If he vibrates through it, the bullet will explode. Wally is more likely to catch the bullet or move out of the way.
Other "protocols"--turning Superman's skin transparent? Maybe Emil Hamilton at STAR labs could do it, but Batman? Putting the ring on GL and hypnotizing him? WTF? Lame. Building nanites to constantly burn J'onn? Where did that come from? You can't buy them, and I certainly don't think Batman made them on his own. WayneTech wouldn't have funded such a silly project.
The only one that made sense was using Scarecrow's fear toxin to make Aquaman scared of water. That makes sense within the context of the Batman mythos. Almost everything else stunk. Freezing Plastic Man wasn't bad either, I guess.
Originally posted by bootkneelee
LOL!!!!!!! I guess he's been slacking a little lately...
He did beat Hawkman and steal his Costume in the Batman/Superman books! :p
And he made me like Superman [in the Batman/Supeman Books]
maybe he's "detected" all that there is to detect????
None of which is detecting anything!
Seriously. Go pick up the Neal Adams Batman hardcover. It's pricey, but WELL worth it. Plus, you'll never like the uber-Bat again!
Alright, back to comparing Mjolnir to Wonder Woman's blades...
Can WW's blade cut through Supes bones? It can wound him, but can it cut his whole arm off? Just asking...
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 19:13
Wow, a guy who likes Supes Hating on Batman....didn't see that comming!:noid:
It's all about technology baby! And thats what the Bats uses.
Best Line in Frank Millers Return of the Dark Knight
When he was talking about the Synth Kryptonite
It took years and tons of money to make, lucky I had both!
:cheeky:
Actually, I like Superman and Batman equally.....
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 19:25
THUG - I was about SumYungGai , he has the Supes symbol so I was refering to him.
I love Bat even before Tower of Babel. I've liked him every since way back when. i'm a fan of Adam West's Batman!:confused:
Originally posted by bootkneelee
i'm a fan of Adam West's Batman!:confused:
I'd keep that to myself if I were you....
kky101023
03/03/2005, 19:47
Yeah, the UberBat idea is pretty stupid as far as I'm concerned. I mean, Batman loses to people like Deathstroke, Lady Shiva, and Prometheus. Why? Why can't he make a machine that makes these folks forget all of their martial arts? That's certainly seems within the realm of Tower of Babel Batman's capabilities. He makes searing nanites for J'onn (lame), hypnotizes GL (lame), makes Superman's skin transparent (absolutely stupid), etc. Then, the same man goes into the Hush story arc and the Riddler has him scratching his head. THE RIDDLER! One of the lamest characters ever created! Inconsistancy, thy name is Bruce Wayne.:grin:
bootkneelee
03/03/2005, 19:54
Wow.... so you mean to tell me you guys would like it if he just mopped the floor with every one?
Batman is a man who uses his brain. In Tower of Babel he figured out each persons weaknessbecause they gave up that information. Can Batman box 15 rounds with Supes, WW, Martian man Hunter, Aquaman etc???? No, but can he come up with a way to manipulate their weakeness?
Yes-Sir-Re-Bob! And that's why I like him!
And Adam West was way cool, can Michael Keaton do the BAt Watusi? I think not! But, no Disrespect to Keaton, he was the bomb!
THE RIDDLER! One of the lamest characters ever created! Inconsistancy, thy name is Bruce Wayne.
Keep in mind, the Riddler was concieved as an incredibly smart character. Few other than Batman could solve his clues successfully.
The Batman animated series version was seriously dangerous.
And the anti-matter universe version (from the CSA's world, where they have Ultraman, Superwoman, Owl Man, etc.), was one of the major heroes around when they had heroes and the smartest man on Earth, the Batman equivelent.
Sure, he's had some bad press in the form of some... less than flattering versions, but at his core, Riddler can be a great character.
Originally posted by bootkneelee
Wow.... so you mean to tell me you guys would like it if he just mopped the floor with every one?
No, that's actually what we're complaining about.....
bootkneelee
03/04/2005, 13:00
But he dosen't wipe the florr with everyone... sure he can take out Supes but you see how Hush is one step ahead of him...
The problem with most heros is they just rush into the fight without thinking.... Superman is tougherthan nails so he's not worrying about getting hurt, Bats is skin and bones, so he has to accessthe situation and then figure outthe best way to handle himself... It's common sense!
So one of his enemies made him look like a fool for a year, but he plans for taking out his friends....
Do you see yet why we say he's not a detective anymore?
:)
I don't know if this was stated. But in another board that I frequent, Kurt Busiek stated that he didn't view Mjolnir (normal) as a magical attack. Of course Dan Jurgens, stated that he did view it as a magical attack somewhere else. So really in the case of Thor's hammer versus Superman's magical vulnerability, you have to chalk it up to writer's interpretation. Both arguments were valid as I saw it. Personally, I'm on the Jurgens side, but I definitely can see Busiek's reasoning.
Canada Maestro
03/04/2005, 13:37
thugit, just curious, what did you think of Batman's role in Identity Crisis? (Maybe you covered this already in which case I apologize)
I actually liked it.
It gave at least SOME explanation for Batman being a jerk to his teammates/friends, and it took him down a notch or two.
He wasn't good enough to save Tim's dad, and the note the Calculator left him was PRICELESS!!!
Canada Maestro
03/04/2005, 13:51
Originally posted by thugit
I actually liked it.
So did I. I kinda chalked it up to being a Marvel fan because I like how Batman seemed a little more "human" in the series. The scene inside the Batmobile before Tim's dad... that choked me up, still does. I loved the Calculator note as well. Most of all I liked how he didn't have the case solved in a day. I read too many posts saying "Batman should have this solved by now".
That kind of story involving Batman I love. Adds the human element for me.
Precisely.
For my money, the O'Neill/Adams Batman was the best.
The animated Batman is fantastic as well.
bootkneelee
03/04/2005, 14:00
I'll take all the different "Bats"....
And say what you will about him knowing how to take out his "friends".. it's pratical.... I mean, who did Superman give the Kryptonite ring to? Bats ... why? In case he went crazy.
And that's why Bats needs to know everyones weaknesses.
Plus he's Human, I mean in Tower of Babel Ras figured out how to take Bats out of the equation... He [Bats] is not perfect, he learns from his mistakes and tries to be one step ahead... if that's not soemthing a hero should strive for then I don't know what....
And for the record, Identity Crisis was a big pile of steamy you know what!
SumYungGai
03/04/2005, 14:03
Originally posted by bootkneelee
THUG - I was about SumYungGai , he has the Supes symbol so I was refering to him.
I love Bat even before Tower of Babel. I've liked him every since way back when. i'm a fan of Adam West's Batman!:confused:
Don't get me wrong. I think Batman is totally awesome. I could swap out the Bat for the S-shield at any time. What I don't like is the way he has been protrayed in the last few years.
A fact that gets bandied about quite regularly is that Batman is "just human". This should apply to more than just his lack of physical powers. The modern JLA Batman is more powerful than all of the other heroes put together. He's completely infallible and can invent anything he needs to defeat anyone. That does not make for an exciting or interesting read for me.
I also don't like the way he has been portrayed as a constantly angry vengeance machine. Where is the "man" in the Batman? Now he just runs around barking orders and getting mad at people. What happened to the guy who cared about his friends and showed it? He could treat people with the respect they deserved, and wasn't constantly scowling at them. I hate that everyone, including other heroes, are afraid of him. His coda used to be that it was villains who were the superstitious and cowardly lot. Now he treats everyone that way.
BTW, I liked the Adam West Batman, too. He was even more powerful with the deus ex machina solutions, but at lesat he could do it without frightening innocent children.
Sorry to go so far off topic.
Can WW's blade cut through Supes bones? It can wound him, but can it cut his whole arm off? Just asking...
It's never been shown, but I don't think it could. I imagine Superman's skin has to be the most vulnerable part of his body. By the nature of skin, it has to be a semi-permeable and porous to the outside enviroment. Inside of Supes is whole other ballgame. He has muscles that can lift mountain ranges and the skeletal structure to hold it up. I have nothing to back that up--just an idea.
SumYungGai
03/04/2005, 14:11
Originally posted by bootkneelee
And for the record, Identity Crisis was a big pile of steamy you know what!
I'll have to disagree with this, too. I loved every issue of Identity Crisis. I was initially let down with the reveal at the end, but in context of the series, the end made perfect sense.
I also really liked Batman's role in IC as well. It showed a fallible Batman. One who could not solve everyone's problems with a new Bat-device that he could whip out of his belt. It made him more human.
I LOVE the picture of the Batman cowl swallowing Tim up.....
One of the coolest pages EVER.
"Batman and Robin. Orphans."
bootkneelee
03/04/2005, 14:42
Originally posted by SumYungGai
I'll have to disagree with this, too. I loved every issue of Identity Crisis. I was initially let down with the reveal at the end, but in context of the series, the end made perfect sense.
I also really liked Batman's role in IC as well. It showed a fallible Batman. One who could not solve everyone's problems with a new Bat-device that he could whip out of his belt. It made him more human.
Okay, Okay, I should have wrote, The Last Issue of Identity Crisis Was a pile of Steamy you know what....
I like Batman as the dark brooding i respect your powers and capabilities and so on and so forth...
You gotta remember Bats is not a "Hero" Do you remember when he formedthe Outsiders? When he told Supes to talk a long walk off a short pier???? That's my Batman, I'll do what I want when I want How I want. If you'll help me, Good, if not, Oh well.
He wasthe one guy who when everyone just wanted to take Ollie back with open arms was like, I need to know for a fact if he is whom he claims to be, the same with Supergirl, Bats takes nothing at face value, and when he does, he gets bit in the buttocks [see Hush]
GoldenAge
03/04/2005, 15:42
Originally posted by bootkneelee
Okay, Okay, I should have wrote, The Last Issue of Identity Crisis Was a pile of Steamy you know what....
Let me guess bootkneelee, you're under 25 years old. Or at least you never spent much time in the 70's picking up DC titles???
Ya see, if you had you would have been much more impressed with Identity Crisis.
Sue Dibney was much more prominent in the Silver Age. (Her stint in JLA Classified was nice, but not nearly enough for my tastes)... She was a great character often mixed up in the center of the JLA's adventures. Her death (and the death of her unborn child) WAS stunning and burned me to the core. That's what it was supposed to do.
Now, Sue's death, instead of a major hero's, was only the beginning of many a whiner's argument. The main course, as you stated, was the ending and, more specifically, the murderer... Jean Lorning.
But it all made perfect sense if you'd been a collector of Silver Age DC; especially The Flash! Jean had several mental breakdowns while spinning uncontrolled in the backwash of her superhero-husband's exploits. In fact she even tried to kill Sue at least once back then.
So, I guess I'm dated. But I loved Identity Crisis.
GoldenAge
03/04/2005, 15:45
Originally posted by thugit
Precisely.
For my money, the O'Neill/Adams Batman was the best.
The animated Batman is fantastic as well.
Oh, and thugit already knows that I agree that this era of Batman stands heads and shoulders above ALL the rest!
Back then, when Gordon referred to Batman as Detective, it was more than a name... it was a title.
bootkneelee
03/04/2005, 15:51
Originally posted by GoldenAge
Let me guess bootkneelee, you're under 25 years old. Or at least you never spent much time in the 70's picking up DC titles???
Ya see, if you had you would have been much more impressed with Identity Crisis.
Sue Dibney was much more prominent in the Silver Age. (Her stint in JLA Classified was nice, but not nearly enough for my tastes)... She was a great character often mixed up in the center of the JLA's adventures. Her death (and the death of her unborn child) WAS stunning and burned me to the core. That's what it was supposed to do.
Now, Sue's death, instead of a major hero's, was only the beginning of many a whiner's argument. The main course, as you stated, was the ending and, more specifically, the murderer... Jean Lorning.
But it all made perfect sense if you'd been a collector of Silver Age DC; especially The Flash! Jean had several mental breakdowns while spinning uncontrolled in the backwash of her superhero-husband's exploits. In fact she even tried to kill Sue at least once back then.
So, I guess I'm dated. But I loved Identity Crisis.
I'll be 39 come May 24th and in the 70's I was reading more Marvel than DC [but did read DC]
But did you see her eyes? I'm thinking she was being controlled by the Human Top guy from the Flash book who can jump from body to body to body [and so forth]
I just didn't like the way they did it. I guess "we" like the DC Heros were looking everywhere but in front of our eyes....
DeonBeast
03/04/2005, 16:06
I was an avid follower of the Batman/Superman animated series. Both main characters were done extremely well... and I loved the Lobo appearances.
GoldenAge
03/04/2005, 16:10
Originally posted by bootkneelee
I'll be 39 come May 24th and in the 70's I was reading more Marvel than DC [but did read DC]
But did you see her eyes? I'm thinking she was being controlled by the Human Top guy from the Flash book who can jump from body to body to body [and so forth]
That "flashed" through my mind as well! :laugh:
Ignatz_Mouse
03/04/2005, 16:14
When did Jean try to kill Sue previously?
bootkneelee
03/04/2005, 16:18
And I did not like the fact that they didn't follow up with it [her being possesed] If she was indeed possesed then I could hadle it, but in retrospect lets say she was, if the Heros don't know it then I guess that makes it better.....
At least with Identity Crisis I got to see Deathstroke get buck wild! I always heard he was a bad arse but never saw him get down.
And I got to see by boy Ollie save the day. The coolest panel had to be him stabbing Wade in his "bad" eye! ;)
kky101023
03/04/2005, 16:26
Just for the record bootkneelee, Deathstroke's name is Slade Wilson. Wade Wilson is Deadpool, which adds to Deadpool's joke-of-a-character feel. But I agree, it's about time they portrayed what Deathstroke is actually capable of. I just hope they'll continue to.:grin:
Oh, I think Deathstroke is just getting warmed up....
bootkneelee
03/04/2005, 16:36
Wade, Slade.... yeah... I pooched that one :confused:
I wanna see what Deatstroke would do if surrounded by Supes, WW, and Martian Manhunter....
I think the best portrayel of Batman was in Avenger vs JLA or JLA vs Avengers which ever ya prefer. When the JLA is taking on Terminus. The team is running around frantically doing theyre best, Bats is watching from atop a building. He snaps into action and pretty much used the team members like a master chess player defeating Terminus. I'm not even a Batman fan and I can respect how good he can be. By the way the best part about that whole series was the Captain America/Batman spar fight. That may very well have been the best fight I have ever read in a comic book ever. Two masters feeling one another out, and realizing there is not point and figuring it all out as a good detective and a master strategist would do.
bootkneelee
03/04/2005, 16:52
See US Agent, I wanted to say just that, but since I'm a fan had I pointed out what you said they's be all like "you just love him and wanna marrry him" :noid: Well you know what I mean.
There were reprints and they did a story where they were fighting against Gorrila Grod and a bunck of Monkeys and Bats had things under control and Supes comes flying in and gets mind controlled and almost screws everything up. When all is said and done Bats rips Supes a new one and everyone is shocked that he's standing up to the big boy scout.
Also Flash mentions that when he and Supes were racing he thinks Supes might have been hold ing back, and that p'od him, He says what if we really need to know who's quicker.
Bats just keeps it real, he's not the nicest guy, but he know what's what!
Batman is written as a jerk to EVERYONE.
He's hateful towards Superman (his best friend), Nightwing (his adopted son), Alfred (his father figure)....
It's gone too far. Batman didn't used to despise everyone like he does now. He couldn't beat 25 super powered beings like I'm sure he could now.
He's just not as interesting a character as he used to be.
GoldenAge
03/04/2005, 20:02
Originally posted by Ignatz_Mouse
When did Jean try to kill Sue previously?
God, I'd have to raid my archives... It was a Flash/Atom book from long ago. Jean had a breakdown and tried to kill/hurt Jean. She wasn't mind controlled, but she wasn't herself either. I remember her being drawn with big wide eyes and tiny little pupils. It wasn't her first breakdown either. She'd suffered at least one or two psychotic episodes before that.
Actually Iris West was involved too. She was the one that kept a level head and actually saved the women.
bootkneelee
03/04/2005, 20:49
Then shouldn't he DC Heros relized they had a crazy [I won't use the "B" word, instead I'll say "unstable creature"] Unstable Creature among them?
I mean I watch a lot of cop shows and the first person you suspect in a murder is the Spouse, then family, then friends and so on and so forth... Had I know Sue was an "Unstable Creature" I would have suspected her!
Ignatz_Mouse
03/05/2005, 18:27
Originally posted by GoldenAge
God, I'd have to raid my archives... It was a Flash/Atom book from long ago. Jean had a breakdown and tried to kill/hurt Jean. She wasn't mind controlled, but she wasn't herself either. I remember her being drawn with big wide eyes and tiny little pupils. It wasn't her first breakdown either. She'd suffered at least one or two psychotic episodes before that.
Actually Iris West was involved too. She was the one that kept a level head and actually saved the women.
I think that was in Super-Team Family (strangest comic title ever?) but I haven't read it, just seen the reference. I didn't know whe tried to kill Sue, though.
bootkneelee I do hope you admit as good as Bats is at what he does, Captain America is his equivilent or better.
GoldenAge
03/06/2005, 21:08
Originally posted by USAgent
bootkneelee I do hope you admit as good as Bats is at what he does, Captain America is his equivilent or better.
This is only true in the areas of combat (HTH to troop deployment and strategy). Beyond that Batman is heads and shoulders above Cap.
Bruce is richer, smarter, a better detective and forensic scientist... In fact, the only skill Steve Rogers has beyond fighting is art... and he never made any money at it so his art may be awful. Perhaps he choose art as a profession because he couldn’t find a briefcase as large as a portfolio in which to hide his shield.
Captain America is woefully lacking as an all-around character. Ask him, he’d be the first to tell you… “I’m a man out of time. I don’t fit in. I’m lost. My private live is in ruins. yada,yada,yada.”
Maniac_nmt
03/06/2005, 21:46
Originally posted by GoldenAge
This is only true in the areas of combat (HTH to troop deployment and strategy). Beyond that Batman is heads and shoulders above Cap.
Bruce is richer, smarter, a better detective and forensic scientist... In fact, the only skill Steve Rogers has beyond fighting is art... and he never made any money at it so his art may be awful. Perhaps he choose art as a profession because he couldn’t find a briefcase as large as a portfolio in which to hide his shield.
Captain America is woefully lacking as an all-around character. Ask him, he’d be the first to tell you… “I’m a man out of time. I don’t fit in. I’m lost. My private live is in ruins. yada,yada,yada.”
Says the man who thinks Captain Marvel is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Strategy/Military Planning isn't just 'Hth'. It covers a very large width and breadth of areas. Cap is head and shoulders above Batman in those areas.
I cut my comic book teeth on Batman, used to run arround in a Batman costume as a kid, watched Superfriends as a kid, watched Batman:TAS regular.
He can be richer, or a better detective, whatever. Steve Rogers always has been, and always will be a better hero.
Let me flip you the proverbial finger for running Steve down for being that 'boring one dimmensional character' that the hero you love so much is.
bootkneelee
03/07/2005, 16:27
Originally posted by USAgent
bootkneelee I do hope you admit as good as Bats is at what he does, Captain America is his equivilent or better.
NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!! Ultimate Cap may be as "Cool" as Batman but Batman is way better than Captain America.
They are equals at fighting, Cap may be stronger [STEROIDS!!!!!] but we all know stronger doesn't mean better.
If I could only take one on my team, I'd take Bats of both Caps, and If I could only choose 1 Cap, I'll take Ult Cap over regulas Cap.
GoldenAge
03/07/2005, 17:42
Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
Says the man who thinks Captain Marvel is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Strategy/Military Planning isn't just 'Hth'. It covers a very large width and breadth of areas. Cap is head and shoulders above Batman in those areas.
I cut my comic book teeth on Batman, used to run arround in a Batman costume as a kid, watched Superfriends as a kid, watched Batman:TAS regular.
He can be richer, or a better detective, whatever. Steve Rogers always has been, and always will be a better hero.
Let me flip you the proverbial finger for running Steve down for being that 'boring one dimmensional character' that the hero you love so much is.
What, are you blind and stupid???
Above I wrote... (you'll be seeing this for a second time... I know you can't read well, so I'll type reeeeaaaalllll slllooooooowww): HTH to troop deployment and strategy
How, exactly, does someone like you, who just got off the short buss, interpret that statement... No, wait. Don't answer that. Allow me to TELL you:
Captain America is Batman's better or equal in hand-to-hand combat, troop deployment (of any and all types and sizes) and military/combat strategy.
Now, do you have a problem with that statement... AGAIN?????
And here is the statement I was responding to (perhaps you didn't/couldn't read it?): as good as Bats is at what he does, Captain America is his equivalent or better
Now, by your own admission... Captain America is NOT a better businessman than Batman. Captain America is NOT a better detective than Batman.... here, let me add some more: Captain America is NOT a better inventor than Batman. Captain America is NOT a better forensic scientist than Batman. So, Captain America is NOT as good or better at everything that Batman does. Sounds simple, right? But no, you couldn't handle the truth!
You've made it perfectly clear posting here at HCRealms that you'd rather cuddle up to a Steve Rogers plush toy than eat, drink or keep an open mind. But loving Captain America doesn't make him a great read beyond his physical exploits.
Now take a shower fanboy!
BTW: I'm not nearly as delusional as you when it comes to Captain Marvel. I've actually read his books (unlike you) and will be the first to say that he's campy and silly and, more often than not, misused. At times he can be so boring that they actually call him Captain White-Bread. But, that being said, I'd still put him up against Captain America any day of the week.
Maniac_nmt
03/07/2005, 20:47
He is better then Batman at what he does, and that is being a hero. Cap is infinitely better at being a hero.
Batman alienates everyone arround him, inspires no one, deals with local crime on a regular basis as opposed to world wide threats, etc...
You are so off your chum, it's not even funny. Reading your post it's hillarious watching the pot call the kettle black.
bootkneelee
03/07/2005, 21:04
Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
He is better then Batman at what he does, and that is being a hero. Cap is infinitely better at being a hero.
Batman alienates everyone arround him, inspires no one, deals with local crime on a regular basis as opposed to world wide threats, etc...
You are so off your chum, it's not even funny. Reading your post it's hillarious watching the pot call the kettle black.
To Quote the Infamous Lil Jon "WWWHHHAAAATTTT?????!!!"
Batman dosen't deal with world wide threats??? You obviously don't real the JLA, he's the one who by himself stopped the Martian Invasion and then when that creepy alien guy and his ban of aliens came to earth the wreak havok, it was Bats who [with a ball point pen I might add] once again saved the day.
He operates on many a different levels and he does what he does! He's not out to win Prom King, but people know if he says "do this, this and this" they know that the day will be saved because of it.
Captain America is like Superman, they are the one you'll see waving the American Flag and people will cheer and feel good about themselves, but I tell you what, if you are in a dark alley and are about to be jumped by 5 thugs, it'll be Batman who swoops in, break them off something proper like, and you'll be saying "God Bless Batman!"
Maniac_nmt
03/07/2005, 22:53
Originally posted by bootkneelee
To Quote the Infamous Lil
Batman dosen't deal with world wide threats??? You obviously don't real the JLA, he's the one who by himself stopped the Martian Invasion and then when that creepy alien guy and his ban of aliens came to earth the wreak havok, it was Bats who [with a ball point pen I might add] once again saved the day.
I didn't say he didn't deal with World Wide threats. I said on a regular basis. In his own titles, he's far more likely to face off against local threats, gangs, people out to do things to Gotham.
For Cap, he faces much larger issues in his own title, and as the head of the Avengers. At least, more often then Batman does.
In so far as alter egos, sure, Bruce has accomplished a lot more. He runs a highly successful company, takes care of his people, donates to charities, etc. However, his Batman himself just doesn't live up to that anymore.
Thugit is right, there was a time when Batman was a real 'hero'. He wasn't a pathological liar, didn't treat everyone like garbage, actually was a detective, etc.
For me, Batman died when Bane broke his back and Bruce gave it up to Jean Paul. It was out of character for Bruce, and then when he did come back he spiraled down hill. Bruce Wayne, I can still respect (as in some ways he's why I like Iron Man, a rich, successful business man that isn't a evil bastard out to destroy the world. which is how most comics portray them), Batman, 'eh. Not so much anymore.
Which is a shame, as like Wolverine, he used to be a great character.
That's not to say I don't mind a darker Batman, but more when it's kept as alternate stories (like DKR was supposed to be).
The Flash89
03/07/2005, 23:03
Batman is a master strategist and the World's Greatest Detective.
Not all battles are won by hand-to-hand combat. How do you think Batman has beaten Supes so many times before?
His supreme wit. Batman could probably beat just about anyone.
When exactly did Batman defeat Superman so many times before?
In DKR, when Batman had years to plan, the entire electrical power of a city, Green Arrow with a Kryptonite arrow and Robin in a tank to help? (Superman still won there)
In Jim Lees Batman arch, when Bruce had a Kryptonite ring and Superman was being mind controlled? (Superman won there as well, and it was also admitted by Batman that he himself would have little chance against Superman, even with the ring)
In The Nail, when Batman was augmented by Hal Jordans GL ring to near Superman levels? (Nope, Bruce lost there as well, and that was against a lesser Kryptonian than Superman)
Or in a Superman storyline that happened a few years back, when Superman not only took on Batman, but the entire Main 7, plus Barda and Orion, by himself and was only KOed when Jonn gave Kyle the ability to create Kryptonite?
All this talk of how Batman can and has defeated Superman, may I ask where this is coming from?
kky101023
03/08/2005, 09:28
So Batman lost to a lesser SHW than Superman, even with augmented power akin to Superman? See, that's just goofy to me. You're telling me that Batman's superior combat capabilities and years of ceaseless physical and mental training, combined with Superman-esque power isn't enough to take the majority of threats he faces? I don't even see Clark standing much of a chance against that, since Clark's "battle tactics" typically revolve around "trade punches/kicks with this guy, toss in occassional heat vision/cold breath/super speed, and then charge head first into this monster/villain/death beam/etc.":grin:
Maniac_nmt
03/08/2005, 09:40
Originally posted by kky101023
So Batman lost to a lesser SHW than Superman, even with augmented power akin to Superman? See, that's just goofy to me. You're telling me that Batman's superior combat capabilities and years of ceaseless physical and mental training, combined with Superman-esque power isn't enough to take the majority of threats he faces? I don't even see Clark standing much of a chance against that, since Clark's "battle tactics" typically revolve around "trade punches/kicks with this guy, toss in occassional heat vision/cold breath/super speed, and then charge head first into this monster/villain/death beam/etc.":grin:
I think you sell Superman far short. For while that might be normal tactics, consider the following.
1. For most people, that is all that is required, he's so far beyond many others powerwise.
2. Clark Kent is actually a very smart man. It wasn't all that long ago where he could have been ranked up or beyond Batman (DCU RPG used to rank him as a higher intelligence then Batman). At least, I certainly wouldn't put him down as average intelligence
3. He's a Kansas farm boy. The way he was raised, in a way, he's somewhat scared to cut loose, because of the people that might get hurt as a result.
kky101023
03/08/2005, 12:10
I don't think I'm selling anyone short. The whole reason Doomsday killed Supes in the first place was because Supes idiotically tried to out-power him. Sure, that's all it takes for a lot of guys Supes faces, but he shouldn't assume, particularly with guys as menacing as Doomsday. And Superman's combat skills are easily outstripped by Batman's. EASILY. Batman+Superman level power=better warrior than Superman. If Batman was put on the same power level as Supes, it'd be like watching Bruce Lee fighting a street thug. The street thug knows how to brawl, but he probably still won't even lay a hand on Lee. Superman is smart, but my point is he tends to underestimate his opponents until it's too late.:grin:
Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
2. Clark Kent is actually a very smart man. It wasn't all that long ago where he could have been ranked up or beyond Batman (DCU RPG used to rank him as a higher intelligence then Batman). At least, I certainly wouldn't put him down as average intelligence
The way things are going, Superman will soon be as smart or smarter then Reed Richards. Better magician then Dr Fate or Dr Strange. Run faster then KC Flash. More brute strenght then the Hulk. Better fighter then Thor or WW. Better telepath tehn MM or Prof X, Better tactician then Cap America. Better acrobat then Spiderman.
Man, I hate Superman
Superman didnt know ANYTHING about Doomsday when they both fought to the death. All he knew was he was heading straight for Meptropolis and he had to be stopped, no matter the cost. Superman didnt have time to formulate plans or calculate different ideas. Doomsday was killing things left and right, and heading straight into the heart of HIS city. Keep in mind he DID try flinging him away, using the fact that Doomsday doesnt fly against him, but that didnt work. Superman also tried to fly him into outer space, but Doomsday was much quicker than he thought, and he couldnt do that either. All in all, Superman was smart enough to realize the only way to take Doomsday down for the count was through brute strength, HTH slugfest, and that he was probably the only person on earth who could do so.
As for Supermans actual combat abilities, sure Batman is a better fighter, but Superman was later trained by Mongul in actual HTH skills, and even when possessing a human (no powers) body managed to defeat Kobra in a close combat brawl.
Again, Id like to know actual instances (several since its such "common knowledge" Batman can defeat Superman) where Bruce takes down Kal.
Originally posted by DTM
When exactly did Batman defeat Superman so many times before?
In DKR, when Batman had years to plan, the entire electrical power of a city, Green Arrow with a Kryptonite arrow and Robin in a tank to help? (Superman still won there)
In Jim Lees Batman arch, when Bruce had a Kryptonite ring and Superman was being mind controlled? (Superman won there as well, and it was also admitted by Batman that he himself would have little chance against Superman, even with the ring)
In The Nail, when Batman was augmented by Hal Jordans GL ring to near Superman levels? (Nope, Bruce lost there as well, and that was against a lesser Kryptonian than Superman)
Or in a Superman storyline that happened a few years back, when Superman not only took on Batman, but the entire Main 7, plus Barda and Orion, by himself and was only KOed when Jonn gave Kyle the ability to create Kryptonite?
All this talk of how Batman can and has defeated Superman, may I ask where this is coming from?
BRAVO!!!!
So many people talk about Batman beating Superman--I've NEVER seen it happen in continuity.
Batman can't beat Superman.
SumYungGai
03/08/2005, 12:56
Originally posted by bootkneelee
Captain America is like Superman, they are the one you'll see waving the American Flag and people will cheer and feel good about themselves,
You wrote that like we're supposed to think that's a bad thing.
if you are in a dark alley and are about to be jumped by 5 thugs, it'll be Batman who swoops in, break them off something proper like, and you'll be saying "God Bless Batman!"
Which city's streets are safer, Gotham or Metropolis? Which city's hero is out night and day fighting the neverending battle against the forces of evil and chaos?
In your scenario, the Man of Steel would swoop in, drop the muggers off at the local PD and come back and walk you to your car. Plus, he would do the whole thing with a smile.
Admit it, it's the smile that gets to you, right? You would prefer it if he was scowling the whole time, and agonizing over the lives that he never managed to save.
:grin:
SumYungGai
03/08/2005, 13:02
Originally posted by mick77
Man, I hate Superman
Well, look at it this way, the guy can read at superspeed and has access to the entire library of Krypton. While he may not be able to innovate like Reed, Superman has access to a staggering amount of information.
Originally posted by kky101023
And Superman's combat skills are easily outstripped by Batman's. EASILY. Batman+Superman level power=better warrior than Superman. If Batman was put on the same power level as Supes, it'd be like watching Bruce Lee fighting a street thug.
I think you're underestimating Superman's fighting skills. He's not the best martial artist in the world, but he has fought foes constantly for years and years, and he's totally adapted to his power level. You don't fight that long without being a master combatant (and this does show when Supes is depowered- He's still notable better than most would expect by a good margin, if below the top low-powered heroes of course).
He also crosses fists in training with the likes of Wonder Woman, who even without powers would be a near-Batman level martial artist.
If Batman was put on the same power level as Superman... it'd be like Bruce Lee versus someone else who really, really knew their way around a fight, only Superman is still more used to the variety of powers and different options avalible at his powerlevel.
The way I see it, both low power = Batman wins
Both high power = Superman wins.
So Batman lost to a lesser SHW than Superman, even with augmented power akin to Superman?
In that (it was an elseworlds), it was clear that the Kryptonians were stronger still than either Batman w/GL powerboost (and this Kryptonian was still very near Kal-El, just a bit below).
And the SHW in question was not unskilled himself.
bootkneelee
03/08/2005, 13:30
Originally posted by SumYungGai
You wrote that like we're supposed to think that's a bad thing.
Which city's streets are safer, Gotham or Metropolis? Which city's hero is out night and day fighting the neverending battle against the forces of evil and chaos?
In your scenario, the Man of Steel would swoop in, drop the muggers off at the local PD and come back and walk you to your car. Plus, he would do the whole thing with a smile.
Admit it, it's the smile that gets to you, right? You would prefer it if he was scowling the whole time, and agonizing over the lives that he never managed to save.
:grin:
You are oh so wrong my brother, oh so wrong... I do not dislike Superman or Captain America. When I wrote about the flag waving I was just staing that that's waht Supes and Cap are... they are the PR guy for their respective groups. When they wanted the people of earth to unite to fight the Martian invasion, Bats told Supes you have to be the one to motivate them, when The Ultimates wanted to rally Earthlings against the alien invasion it was Cap that gave the speech to rally everyone. [hey, you notice a pattern here????] This is not a bad thing, it's like baseball, apple pie and so on and so forth.
And, Superman does not patrol the streets at nite, that's what Bats does, Supes dosen't really handle "common thugs"
Finally, I do not hate Superman, as a result of reading the Batman/Supeman title I actual dig the big blue boy scout, why you may ask? Cause Bats gave him the street cred!
The best line that Bats said was after from a couple miles up in the air he used his heat vision to take out two people... "It's hard not to think of Clark as a god, and thankful he dosen't consider himself one"
kky101023
03/08/2005, 14:21
Hmm. Isn't Kobra supposed to be one of the DCU's premier martial artists? If so, then I did underestimate Superman's HTH ability. By that same token, why do writers even bother setting Supes up against anyone other than someone who has access to Kryptonite, magic, or mental powers? I always thought the "almost Superman level power, but superior HTH skills" niche was filled by Wonder Woman. See, I just feel like it's getting too close to the Golden Age, where Superman was infallible (with the exception of Kryptonite) and pretty much all the other DC heroes were practically useless just by nature of Superman existing. I'm fine with Supes being the best hero in DC, but I prefer it to be because of him being a great all-around package of powers, and not because he can do everything all the others can do only better. It would be cool if guys like Doomsday, Thing, and Grundy had the sheer physical edge over Superman, but Superman still beats them because of his other abilities.:grin:
Kobra's called a premier guy, but he's sort of the absolute bottom rung of that.
Basically, he's world class, and a threat, but Mr. Terrific's better, as are a bunch of others. Puts up a fight, even a long fight where he gets several blows in, but then loses.
Powerless Wonder Woman would thrash him easily.
kky101023
03/08/2005, 14:45
Does anyone know a website that covers characters from both universes and plots their powers/abilities on an even scale? I really would like to know how, for instance, Superman's physical strength compares to Hulk's, or Wolverine's regeneration compares to Deathstroke's.:grin:
Gentlegamer
03/08/2005, 14:57
Originally posted by mick77
The way things are going, Superman will soon be as smart or smarter then Reed Richards. Better magician then Dr Fate or Dr Strange. Run faster then KC Flash. More brute strenght then the Hulk. Better fighter then Thor or WW. Better telepath tehn MM or Prof X, Better tactician then Cap America. Better acrobat then Spiderman.
Man, I hate Superman So, how do you feel about Sentry?
Canada Maestro
03/08/2005, 15:01
Originally posted by kky101023
Does anyone know a website that covers characters from both universes and plots their powers/abilities on an even scale? I really would like to know how, for instance, Superman's physical strength compares to Hulk's, or Wolverine's regeneration compares to Deathstroke's.:grin:
You probably won't find just one and most will often be at the writer's discretion. Neither side is really all that consistent in their power levels and fans of either side can site examples where one person's strength outclasses another and vice versa. What you'll be left with is one person's opinion (or possibly several opinions of a number of people) but nothing you can point to and say "See, Superman is stronger than the Hulk" or anything like that.
Then again, this may just be my opinion. :)
Originally posted by Gentlegamer
So, how do you feel about Sentry?
I don't know alot about Sentry, but if he ends up being the Marvel identical response to Superman, then screw the Sentry.
kky101023
03/08/2005, 16:38
Sentry is pretty much a Superman clone, but he's a lot more powerful. In addition to Superman-esque powers that are better than the Man of Steel's, he can control light. He fought Galactus to a standstill without assistance, and is basically regarded as being able to do anything. I really hope they nerf him since he's showing up in New Avengers, or else it'll be like all the other heroes are just getting in his way and are useless, kinda like Golden Age Superman.:grin:
bootkneelee
03/08/2005, 18:43
Sounds Lame.... :tired:
I liked old boy in the Exiles who was the Superman Clone, he was cool cause he used his powers to the full extent. He was like Superman on Crack! :p
Originally posted by kky101023
Hmm. Isn't Kobra supposed to be one of the DCU's premier martial artists? If so, then I did underestimate Superman's HTH ability.
Isn't Superman a Master of a Krytonian Martial Art?
Just as Flamebird and Nightwing from Kandor are?
(wouldn't they be two great Uniques!)
What did Mongul's HTH training of Superman consist of?
What styles?
What comic is this from?
Wasn't Superman's father Krypton's premier Scientist?
I'm sure Superman got some of those genes.
Sups is very smart when the writer wants him to be.
He makes a lot of things in his Fortress.
Superman needs very little sleep doesn't he?
He could battle evil day and night.
But I think he has chosen to spend somewhat
regular time with his wife when he is able to.
(could Lois bear Superman's child?)
(why don't the writer's explore this? they are married)
Wouldn't Superman save more lives if he was a Brain Surgeon?
I don't think he needs to be a Reporter,
with news coming in over the internet,
using his super hearing,
JLA Emergency Broadcasts, etc.
Does anybody else find it lame that he is still a Reporter?
And if you say he needs a job where he can leave at any moment,
then he could just be unemployed
(making his money by squeezing coal or finding shipwrecks),
or freelance something or other.
I've read 2 or 3 comics where Superman was enraged
and Darkseid's Omega Beams
bounced off of Superman
without doing any real damage.
(Doomsday also shrugged them off)
If Superman found himself in big trouble
he could just grab his opponent,
fly them both into the Sun (or darn close to).
Superman is now stronger and his opponent is probably taking damage,
most fights would be over fairly quickly.
:devious:
(lets be thankful he doesn't do this all the time,
it would get boring real fast)
The most powerful Villians and Intergalactic Threats
seem to gravitate towards wanting to fight Superman.
That is what makes the Superman comics so great.
He finds challenges all the time.
a Superman fan
Originally posted by DTM
Anyone interested in discussing this, lets keep this thread FRIENDLY. No DC fanboy or Marvel zombie talks.
Believe WWs blades should get the bonus (and have) but Thors hammer shouldnt, why?
DC has fans, and Marvel has zombies?
I'm glad you set the rules to keep this friendly!
Post Number 2 and the discussion is over already:
"Wonder Woman's blade is enchanted to cut.
So it does.
Mjolnir is enchanted to grant It's specific power set to it's wielder.
Sure, Uru metal is incredibly strong,
and with his hammer Thor delivers quite a blow.
But magical damage is not an element of Mjolnir's enchantment."
Discussion over.
"Zombies' can still love their Thor.
I do.
Sups can take more damage than Thor can.
And is stronger.
And fly faster.
And doesn't need his hammer to fight at his best.
Who would win, Thor or Doomsday?
Would Thor come back from this death?
Who would win, Doomsday or Ulik?
I think Loki would have more of a chance to beat Superman.
SumYungGai
03/08/2005, 19:32
An important aspect to Clark Kent being a reporter is that he is competing fairly with normal humans. Reporting is a field in which he can't excel by using his powers. He may be able to type faster, or get to the scene quicker, but in the end it's his own non-powered creativity that writes the articles. It shows that Superman is willing to accept a challenge, and that he can still excel without his powers.
The recent story arcs in which Clark has been demoted and losing respect as a journalist are important. It shows him losing a bit of his "human edge". His time as Superman is taking away from his time as a man.
SumYungGai
03/08/2005, 19:38
Originally posted by THOMAS5
DC has fans, and Marvel has zombies?
I'm glad you set the rules to keep this friendly!
In fairness to DTM, "zombies" and "fanboys" are the usual descriptors for Marvel and DC fans. It may not be fair, but it's use is wider than this internet thread.
I think Loki would have more of a chance to beat Superman.
In my mind, Loki is a more malicious, but less powerful Mr. Mxlptlk. I think after Superman got used to Loki's MO, he would fair as well as Thor does. Magical schemers like Satannus and magical powerhouses like Silver Banshee still have yet to conclusively defeat the Man of Steel.
Originally posted by SumYungGai
In my mind, Loki is a more malicious, but less powerful Mr. Mxlptlk. I think after Superman got used to Loki's MO, he would fair as well as Thor does.
Did you read the last 10 issues of Thor?
Loki deserves more credit than most give.
bootkneelee
03/08/2005, 19:56
Originally posted by SumYungGai
An important aspect to Clark Kent being a reporter is that he is competing fairly with normal humans. Reporting is a field in which he can't excel by using his powers. He may be able to type faster, or get to the scene quicker, but in the end it's his own non-powered creativity that writes the articles. It shows that Superman is willing to accept a challenge, and that he can still excel without his powers.
The recent story arcs in which Clark has been demoted and losing respect as a journalist are important. It shows him losing a bit of his "human edge". His time as Superman is taking away from his time as a man.
And that's his problem, he's not a "man" or a "human", he's a Kryptonian, and that's what he should strive to be!
Why even be Clark Kent anymore?
Maniac_nmt
03/08/2005, 20:01
Originally posted by THOMAS5
Who would win, Thor or Doomsday?
Thor
Would Thor come back from this death?
Yes, and has done so, at least once. In addition to going into Hel, kicking @@@, feeling the touch of death, and taking names, and then riding out again
Who would win, Doomsday or Ulik?
Slade Wilson
03/08/2005, 20:14
ok heres the real answer
when thor hit with his hammer it did hurt superman it sent him flying thru abuilding and the look of pain and agony on his face on the panel he was hit shows that it did hurt!! in fact it hurt big time! what people seem to forget here is that the famous blow that didnt hurt supes did not hit him he caught the weapon and kept it from hitting him in the face and then delivered a counter blow! catching a magical blade would cut superman catching a magical blunt object could cause him some damage in his hadbut not enough to stop supes from pressing on like he did, i know some of us will try to say well it should have broke his hand well not so again the hammer is enchanted and bestows powers to the user the power of flight, weather control, dimesinonal travel, the ability to fire bolts of energy, it always return to its master, and is darn near unbreakable and can even absorb energy, but I cant recall reading anywhere that it did magical blunt damage when it hit for hiting purposes it is like a unbreakable war hammer and combined with thors awsome strength you are talking some serious ouch!! but although it may seem a little swayed I have to admit it was a cool move to see supes catch the hammer I never saw it coming and that to me is good writing and lets give thor his props he fought with superman thru 2 books and went toe to toe with earths most powerfull hero and you know what supes said he was the single toughest opponent he had faced, and dont forget the great dog pile by the avengers which dropped the s! if thor hadnt beat on supes like he did the dogpile wouldnt have worked supes was too winded after his battle with the thunder god, this fight could go either way and that day it went supes way thats all!
bootkneelee
03/08/2005, 20:48
Wow, Slade you gave a great statement, didn't take any sides, did not put anyone down....took neither a Marvel nor DC stancer....... Just presented facts..... :noid:
What are you tryingto make the rest of us look bad?:confused:
Slade Wilson
03/08/2005, 20:53
Originally posted by bootkneelee
Wow, Slade you gave a great statement, didn't take any sides, did not put anyone down....took neither a Marvel nor DC stancer....... Just presented facts..... :noid:
What are you tryingto make the rest of us look bad?:confused:
:cool: Thanks and Im just calling it like it is! I get tired of the my dad could beat your dad scenario and just think they are both great heros! And for anyone who hates superman they should at least give credit where credits due, he is the first tru superhero and without him we probably wouldnt have comics or heroclixs :laugh:
bootkneelee
03/08/2005, 21:36
Now is Tarzan older than Superman? or the Phantom [you know the ghost who walks] or even Conan??? The Shadow???
:rolleyes:
Maniac_nmt
03/08/2005, 23:40
Originally posted by bootkneelee
Now is Tarzan older than Superman? or the Phantom [you know the ghost who walks] or even Conan??? The Shadow???
:rolleyes:
Yes, Tarzan predates them all. Edgar Rice Burroughs first wrote Tarzan in I want to say the 1910s.
Conan debuted in the early 30s. I don't know if he predates the Shadow, or the Phantom, but I would guess yes.
John Carter, Warlord of Mars, also predates Superman, and had super powers (super strong, super leaping, quicker, and tougher thanks to Barsoom's weaker gravity, plus had atomic powered pistols/rifles, in addition to being the greatest swordsman on a planet where the wimpiest Swordsman was probably equal to a top flight one on Earth). He may have even been in comic form before Superman, though I'd have to double check that.
Oh, and Flash Gordon dates from the early 30s along with #### Tracy (in comic form). No you want to talk about a hero who could do anything, it's Flash Gordon.
Slade Wilson
03/09/2005, 00:07
yes they pre date him but as i said superman is the first tru super hero the others mentioned s comics havent endured the test of time tarzan is one of my favorite characters from literature but even he dosent really exist in todays comics except in ocassional series that dont last, my point was superman started the superheo craze an all heros in some form or another can be traced to him or batman and by the way Im a predominatley marvel reader who only started appreciating dc comics over the last few years.
Originally posted by THOMAS5
DC has fans, and Marvel has zombies?
I'm glad you set the rules to keep this friendly!
Uh, the terms DC Fanboy and Marvel Zombie were NOT created by me, in case youre new to the world of comic book discussions, those terms have been around a LONG time now.
And for the record, I said FANBOY, which is alot worse than just fan, putting in on the same level as Zombie.
Maniac, you think Thor can defeat Doomsday, but think Superman is 1.5 Thors, and Doomsday even at his weakest can defeat Superman?
The Marvel Zombie thing actually came from Marvel. At the time, the people in charge... didn't exactly have respect for their fanbase.
Marvel has definitely improved greatly from that time.
Maniac_nmt
03/09/2005, 09:48
Originally posted by DTM
Maniac, you think Thor can defeat Doomsday, but think Superman is 1.5 Thors, and Doomsday even at his weakest can defeat Superman?
Yes, because I take it as he meant the one who 'killed' Superman.
Clark could have beat that Doomsday right off, if he started with his top game, and was more vicious over all. Since just attacking the bones 'killed' DD, had he been playing for keeps to start, he'd have hit them, and wasted Doomsday before it got that far.
Thor, who will kill, and will take it up to that level a lot quicker, plus is a warrior