Weekly Poll: Which utility power has the biggest impact?

[webhead817]

This week's question is about the big four utility powers: Outwit, Support, Perplex, and Probability Control. Which has the biggest impact on the game today?

[Ultimate2099]

I'd say Outwit. You can perplex or prob a hit all you want but if it's a hit on a guy with Imperv, Super Senses or Mastermind it might all be for nothing.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Still Outwit, even though the others are getting more use. Outwit vs defensive powers is still a classic, common move, seen almost every game.

[coleman]

i would say support, i find it annoying to knock the snot out of KC Superman only to have him run back to a medic to heal up. How many times do you see superman in the comics take a break from the battle and run to the hospital?

[XocgX]

Yeah, but (IMHO) Outwit and Probability Control make 'sense'. Perplex is ridiculious. If Batman has some Kryptonite, he can 'outwit' Superman's Impervious. If he planned for every contingency, I'd even see him having PC. Support IS a bit over-powered, but it's not as bad as perplex. No power should allow a guy who punches people to get a range of 3. That makes ZERO sense. Overconfidence is great, but that is about how it should be period.

[drgnoftyr]

Probability Control ... and this is why ... i had a guy try to hit my ronan the accusar two or three turns in a row and he rolled a crit hit... if it wasnt for my pc (and the fact i made my imperv rolls when i had to) ronan would have been toast ....

[Psylockeslover]

Support all the way. Nothing like being down and out, then, a couple of turns later, yer back on top after a little medic love....

[Top10]

I'm suprised that Telekinesis wasn't on the list.

It is mainly a support power.

[charlesx]

Probability Control has the unique capability of changing the game's crucial dice roll. As such, it impacts the game more than the other listed powers. I would count Outwit as a close second, but the dynamics of the game have been modified so that Outwit is not the power it once was - in my opinion, anyhow.

[Slade Wilson]

prob control what good is outwitting anything if your forced to re roll and miss;)

[BudPalmer]

I'm looking ahead and I say PC. All the other powers have feats or BFC's designed specifically to deal with them.

[clixer11]

There are numerous ways to substitute Outwit's effects (see Gentlegamer's thread).

Support's effects can be substituted by Regeneration and some Team Abilities, or even building a swarm army where you don't care about Support. (This would be #2 in utility though)

Perplex...I've never seen it abused effectively. Maybe I just need to be schooled by it some time.

Prob Control...there is NO SUBSTITUTE for rerolling a crit miss or forcing an opponent to reroll a crit hit!

[Darth Sabre]

I say Perplex. The ability to do an overkill amount of damage is to much. The Rule of three won't save ya, from Thor's 8 damage.

[Hawkeye101]

Outwit for me.But man do I hate Support.I need Prob every game.And Perplex...don't get me started.

[BudPalmer]

Originally posted by Hawkeye101
Outwit for me.But man do I hate Support.I need Prob every game.And Perplex...don't get me started.

This gets my vote for most non-committal post! LOL

[rgrayua]

I can't believe TK was left off, it is a Support power and the most over-used of all since NAAT. WK only half-fixed the problem (assuming a problem existed, which I don't believe) with NAAT leaving the door wide open for TK to take over. As the Jean Grey article pointed out, I NEVER played with the IC Jean Grey until NAAT came about.

Of the choices given, I will vote for Perplex, but only as second to TK. Rule of 3 didn't fix anything either, I still see Perplex abused and do it on occasion myself. Maybe WK is trying to stop the "Hooker Bomb" by retiring the cheaper Pulsewave figures (first Blizzard then Avalanche) but until Cyborg goes it still works.

[blacksabbath]

Definitly support a lucky roll can give thor an aditional 6 clicks and how much would that cost 100 points? well its being done by an 8 point figure and that figure can then do it again talk about game imbalence.

[Trader2699]

Outwit here.

One of the greatest weapons you can have is the ability to make your opponent's weapons useless.

[LuvsNaat]

I am astonished that the winner isn't outwit in a landslide . Sure, support can have a big impact, as can PC, but these impacts are seriously limited by dice. How often do you roll a crit miss that your PC rerolls? Or your opponent roll a crit hit and have to reroll? I go Games in a row without seeing either of these events happening. I go Games in a row without a single heal being succesfully performed. But I have NEVER seen a game that wasn't heavily impacted by the outwit on the board.

[JayThor]

I voted Outwit, because no power is more game-changing than being able to expose Juggernaut, Doomsday, or Hulk to taking damage from a Thug or Jimmy Olson. Nothing comes close to that.



and Con Artists still should be retired.

[Team Arcum]

There is not much doubt that Probability control is the most significant of all the abilities. My logic being that in a match of equals it is really a matter of how the dice fall. The ability to skew the odds in your favor is a huge factor.

[Goblin_Avenger]

Outwit; at least the way I play. I could also see Perplex being big, but I dont own any Con Artists or DEO agents, so its not such a big deal. Support's important too, but you can live without it.
Outwit, however, is both offensive and defensive and can be used any turn you have a view at the enemy. Lotta guys here put down Supes Enemy TA, but its my absolute favorite, and with wild cards I've gotten at least 4 outwits in a single turn. So I'll take outwit and outwit approximations thank you, might be semi-cheesey, but without Black Panther at least I'm paying real points for it.

[JayThor]

Originally posted by Team Arcum
There is not much doubt that Probability control is the most significant of all the abilities. My logic being that in a match of equals it is really a matter of how the dice fall. The ability to skew the odds in your favor is a huge factor. Actually, there is much doubt. To prove it, it doesn't matter what you roll to hit Juggernaut if you only have 1 damage.....

[JayThor]

Unless you Outwit his Inv. first.

[x 35]

I think outwit is because it can turn off any power .:confused:

[Kaitouace]

*shrugs*

Gotta be Perplex. Yes the other powers are very important in their own ways but look outside the actual game itself. What power has caused such a schism among players? What power has given birth to the most hated figure in Heroclix since Firelord as well as next most hated due indirectly to that other figure, Nightcrawler? What power gave birth to the now widely accepted term of "Hooker Bomb"? A power that actually dragged other powers to be more important due to the way it existed in the game (Pulse Wave).

Outwit had its fair share of "It's too powerful" but I can't think of any power that has caused more arguments and chants of "(fill in the blank) is broken" than Perplex. I hardly even see that much Outwit on teams anymore. It's not nearly as big an issue as it was. Perplex always seems to be an issue. Support was annoying but it was never THAT bad. Even the Paramedic didn't cause the kind of animosity the Con Artist did and still does. PC is very important IN game but it never created the kind of discussion OUTSIDE the game that a lot of these other powers did. In fact the only power close to Perplex in that regard isn't on the list, Telekinesis. And even then I don't think that tops Perplex overall. Although if this were just a poll as to what power dominates IN game it would be TK. At least NAAT.

[clixer11]

Originally posted by JayThor
Actually, there is much doubt. To prove it, it doesn't matter what you roll to hit Juggernaut if you only have 1 damage.....

Unless the 1 damage is from

Armor piercing
1 push damage from Incap
Psychic blast
Exploit weakness
Pulse Wave

or instead of Juggy taking damage he is
Mind-controlled

Then it does matter...

[clixer11]

And I think there are two reasons (good post Kaitouace) I think PC isn't as lambasted as Perplex and Support: 1) PC is subtle, and 2) PC translated in a good way from the comics.

[LabRat]

Prob Control is a good power, but I think it doesn't have as much impact as Outwit... You can roll your dice twice but it only improves your chances of a hit, it does not guarantee that you'll really hit... Plus with PC being limited to affecting the rolls of the player who has the current turn, it's a bit de-powered (no rerolling Super Senses or Impervious)...

Perplex isn't as devastating if there's only one Perplex or if it's not being stacked, and even if it's stacked, it's not very devastating if it's not used to increase damage...

Outwit, without White Noise, is guaranteed... Even Prob Control is affected by Outwit! Turn off a power to disable a figure, whether it be removing a damage-reducing figure, disabling a support characters only power, removing Mastermind or Super Senses, making an SS fig drop his object, disabling a move-and-attack power like Charge, HSS, or Running Shot... Outwit really has a big impact in making a strategy work/countering a strategy...

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by Psylockeslover
Support all the way. Nothing like being down and out, then, a couple of turns later, yer back on top after a little medic love....

Fully agreed.

I regularly field teams, and win, without Outwit. Perplex outranks Outwit in importance in my experience, but a well balanced team can still do well without it. Probability Control is practically HeroClix property insurance, but my luck is so horrid that I end up missing easy attacks even with a re-roll - I've played well without it, but just as often wished I hadn't left it out.

But nothing tops Support - its a very rare game I've played with Support that an opponent slapped down a constructed team without it and won. All the pressure of "must KO it before it gets healed" goes out the window, and suddenly you've got the option of crippling / locking down anything that is remotely a threat and finishing them at your leisure. Opponent's push only at their risk, as there is no going back. Meanwhile anything wounded of mine gets the factory refurbish treatment. I'd have no quams about playing a no Outwit, no Perplex team if my opponent had to forgo Support.

[JayThor]

Originally posted by clixer11
Unless the 1 damage is from

Armor piercing
1 push damage from Incap
Psychic blast
Exploit weakness
Pulse Wave

or instead of Juggy taking damage he is
Mind-controlled

Then it does matter... True, but consider that Outwit can cancel Psychic Blast, Exploit Weakness, Pulse Wave, and Mind Control, as well as any other offensive power (including Perplex and PC) and any defensive power, and that gives Outwit a far bigger impact.

As to the Con Artist/Hooker bomb theory, it is the horribly-made figure, not the power itself, that gets the folks hostile and stirs up so many discussions. You may not remember the noise about Black Panthers 27 points of annoyance, and it wasn't to the extent of Hookers, but it did happen ALOT in conjunction with the Firelord stuff back in 2002-2003.

[Wolverine_Hulk]

Probobility control even though it can be outwitted it still can effect the whole game

[Magnito]

I can handle Outwit, Perplex and PC. I HATE support. Having an enemi run back to a medic is the most annoying thing.

[lowguppy]

Heroclix is a game of Dice and Positioning, therefore PC has the most effect. You can't outwit numbers, but rerolling can help. Outwit is handy, but more of a crutch, There are now 2 BFCs that gank support, and hookers are getting replaced with ICWO.

[Terman8er]

The way I look at it is: What power, whenever you build a team, do you HAVE to have on your team?

PC? While nice it isn't a requirement for me.

Support? Again, I have played many a game with no support on my team but it is required by many players.

Perplex? The rule of three has cut out the NEED for this power but it still exists.

Outwit? This one is tough...you almost HAVE to have this on your team to be effective. R Brainiac 5 & R Black Panther anyone?

For me...since I use E DEO Agents on almost every team I build...I have give it to Perplex & Support. But since that worked out as a tie for me I voted Outwit. :)

[DaLuvster89]

Originally posted by LabRat
Outwit really has a big impact in making a strategy work/countering a strategy...

That's what I'm talking about. Outwit in the game has the same effect as someone being Outwitted in the comics, if you can just use a little imagination and have fun with it. The power works like it should, it works how you'd expect it to...

I mean, so what if Outwit is the "best" or most influentail/impactful power in the game. One of the powers has to be. :)

Yeah, I voted for Outwit.

Not that I think it's too powerful; by no means. Many would agree that the old problem was the Outwit/Stealth combo. With so many ways to deal with Stealth these days, those Stealthed Outwitters are as easily targeted as anyone else.

[fenway]

This may have already been said

Outwit and Perplex now have a BFC reducing their effectiveness (White Noise)

So does Support (War Zone)

Probability Control is the only one whose effectiveness has not been 'modified' recently, and in fact, has become in some cases, 'unoutwittable' (the CSA TA)

Whether or not you think the recent 'hits' to the other three have rendered them less effective than PC is, of course, debatable. I think PC rules in a game of random rolls.

(I accept that you could also say, 'In a game of powers, Outwit rules', I just happen to vote for PC)

[skletapocket]

This vote wasn't even right without TK in the list!

The ability to strike first is so essential, and TK is the best option since NAAT. It's a must play in any army.

You CAN play an army without Outwit, Support, Perplex or Prob Control (not that I'd suggest it). When was the last time you played an army without TK? Probably before NAAT.

[skletapocket]

Battlefield Condition cards do NOT alter the effectiveness of any super powers.

First, they aren't played in many venues (at least not around here).

Second, when they are played, you can only play a specific BFC in ONE game, and that assumes your opponent doesn't play Ordinary Day. The odds of pulling off the EXACT BFC against the EXACT right army are slim, especially compared to the odds of a Superpower's ability to be used (100% if it's showing on the dial).

I'm tired of hearing that BFCs patch holes in the rules. They DON'T. If some of them were implemented as rule CHANGES, then they would patch the rules. All they are now is moderate wild cards, changing the rules for ONE match. I play a lot more games than ONE match.

[Toadally]

I'd say PC. It can change the whole game if you hit or miss an important attack. And I just love when they roll a critical success and then I PC then they roll a critical failure :devious:

[webhead817]

Originally posted by skletapocket
This vote wasn't even right without TK in the list!

Ah, but TK is a mobility power, not a utility power. ;)

[azbat]

PC all the way. Fortitude and white noise will wipe out outwit. Radiation leak and war zone can wipe out support. Overconfidence and white noise can wipe out perplex. 150 and 200 point figures can not afford to waste 5 clicks of damage by missing a 30 point figure with BCF or worse a medic by crit missing. The same is true vice versa. A 30 point figure needs a 4 or better at all times to damage the big guns enough. With the high defense value in Legacy, PC is even more valuable.

[JayThor]

Originally posted by azbat
PC all the way. Fortitude and white noise will wipe out outwit. Radiation leak and war zone can wipe out support. Overconfidence and white noise can wipe out perplex. 150 and 200 point figures can not afford to waste 5 clicks of damage by missing a 30 point figure with BCF or worse a medic by crit missing. The same is true vice versa. A 30 point figure needs a 4 or better at all times to damage the big guns enough. With the high defense value in Legacy, PC is even more valuable. PC is very important, but even a reroll can miss. It is not a guaranteed hit. And it can only be used on one roll. Outwit lasts for the round/until lost or healed- and can be reapplied next round. Also, Outwit can get rid of PC. Every figure won't have Fortitude and White Noise. Many won't want to spend the points for them. 25 for Fortitude means you won't see too many, and White Noise loses to Ordinary Day (my BFC of choice).

I still say Outwit.

[Ando]

Originally posted by Psylockeslover
Support all the way. Nothing like being down and out, then, a couple of turns later, yer back on top after a little medic love....

I don't see how anyone could argue against support having the most impact on the game strategically and literally.

[I Am The Game]

I voted Support.

If you're playing against a capable opponent, you're not going to get in a position to wipe out his major piece in one turn. You put hits on him, and his secondary attackers will get hits on you. When his big piece limps back to the medic and rolls a 6, he's back where he started, while you're behind.

Probability Control isn't very tough to play around. Good placement of your figures will block line of fire to the character being affected by it. If they really want to use it, they'll be putting their PC fig in the thick of battle where I like 'em!

Outwit has the same line of fire issues as Probability Control, and the front-loaded guys are either too fragile or too costy.

I agree that Telekinesis is the most game-changing support power in the game, but Wizkids already knows that! Why make it part of the poll when that's the only answer you'll get?

[azbat]

The last game I play I had five easy hits in a row (5 & 6s). My opponent made me reroll each hit and every reroll was 1 or 2 off from hitting again. It was horrible.

[Gacy's Clown]

I picked Outwit as well and probably for all the same reasons I'm sure others have already stated.

[Gacy's Clown]

Originally posted by Ando
I don't see how anyone could argue against support having the most impact on the game strategically and literally.

Apparently I'm blind, because I didn't see Support as an option when I made my pick.
I would actually pick it over Outwit. There's nothing more gamebreaking than knocking a fig down and having him heal back up for 5 or 6...heck, even 4 usually isn't too bad. Yeah, sometimes they can roll low, but it's still more clicks you have to whittle through.

[JayThor]

I have a bad tendency to roll 1's and 2's on Support. And there is never any PC around to reroll it.

I hate for that, too, GC. (the healing after smacking, especially a Mystic).