JLA vs. JSA

[gladiator1518]

The JLA Big Seven against this JSA lineup:

Dr.Fate
Captain Marvel
Sentinel
Powergirl
Hawkman
Mr. Terrific

On another website that I frequent people there think that the JSA wins because of Dr. Fate. Anyone disagree?

[RedMage'sHat]

The JSA would win, mostly cause u u square people off one on one it would look like this, and result like this

Dr.Fate - Zatanna ---> Fate
Captain Marvel - Superman ---> Cap.
Sentinel - Green Lantern ---> depends, i'de say Hal could take Allan but neither Kyle or John could.
Powergirl - Wonder Woman ---> WW
Hawkman - Green Arrow -----> Hawkman
Mr. Terrific - Batman -----> Bats

The reasons are as follows: Fate wins cause he's easily more powerful and knowledgable than Zatanna. Captain Marvel wins cause Supes is weak to magic and Cap's powers are magic based. Sentinal VS. GL is a toss up. Wonder Woman beats power girl cause she's just more vicious. Hawkman would win cause to my knowledge he has before. Bats wins cause once he gets close enough to hit Terrific it's over. But this is just all in my opinion.

[gladiator1518]

Zatanna and Green Arrow are not part of the JLA Big Seven. Here are the big seven:

Superman
Batman
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern(Kyle Rayner for this matchup)
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Flash

[The Qwardian]

Just get Martian Manhunter to put an image of Doc Fates dead wife in his mind and hes out of the battle. Then have him confuse Cap Marvel into thinking hes Billy Batson and he will yell Shazam again. then have batman tape up his mouth. 2 down. Batman and Mr Terrific go for a walk. Only Batman comes back. Superman knocks out power girl in 5 seconds. 4 down. Aquaman and Hawkman go at it. Aquaman gets Hawkman into the water. 5 down. Somehow Jay Garrick shows up, Wally runs circles around him stealing the speed force from him. Only Alan Scott left. Rayner has been doing a good job until now holding him off. Martian attacks his mind. Super man attacks head on. The rest watch as the JLA ends in a flawless victory.

[RedMage'sHat]

eh, i kina went with the JSA's members JLA equivalent.

[GoldenAge]

The big seven should rule this encounter... There are, however, more appropriate JSA teams (Where the heck is Jay???). They should...

However, you've added the one wild card to the JSA team that could make all the deference: Dr. Fate

Here's how it goes down:

Superman vs. Captain Marvel = The fight we'd love to see, but never will.
Captain Marvel should win this battle. Superman himself can be quoted as saying that Cap has the advantage due to his magical nature... But Superman would never let it happen. He'd quickly switch off with a teammate to enhance his chances. The most likely candidate would be the Martian Manhunter. Now this is a battle! Martian mental powers vs. The Wisdom of Solomon. Cap is the greater of the two but J'onn's diverse power set evens the field. This fight may never end.

Batman vs. Mr. Terrific = This encounter might actually happen... but not before both field generals have their teams battling at peak proficiency... against the right opponents. If it did finally happen I see Michael putting up a good showing but eventually loosing to the wiles of the incredibly experienced Batman.

Superman vs. Powergirl = Powergirl would never let a chance to prove herself against her maybe-cousin pass. She's had success against Kal in the past (Superman was at full power though mind controlled and incapable of making quick decisions). This battle could take a while. Kara is quite determined, but eventually Superman would prevail.

Green Lantern(Kyle Rayner) vs. Sentinel = Sorry, though Kyle is awesomely powerful and incredibly strong willed... Alan Scott wrote the book on will power. Another long battle from which Alan Scott walks away saddened that he raised his hand against the next generation for which he cares so much.

Wonder Woman vs, Hawkman = Probably the most spectacular battle in this war. these two are born warriors. Their battle will be legend!!! Have no doubt that the Claw of Horus will be among Hawkman's varied weaponry, and rest assured that every attack he can make Wonder Woman can counter. Eventually the Speed of Mercury wins the day for the star-spangled princess.

That leaves us with...

Aquaman + Flash vs. Dr Fate = Fate would have little problem dealing with these two despite their combined and totally incredible powers.

So, by my reckoning the initial skirmish ends and we have:

-MM and Cap still battling.
-Batman & Terrific just squaring off.
-Powergirl getting up from a devastating blow... by all rights she should stay down... nah.
-The Green Lanterns struggling to contain their battle lest they rend the Earth in two.
-Wonder Woman standing over the broken winged body of Hawkman.
-Dr. Fate alone and ready to help his comrades.

What do YOU think will happen next? :surprised :laugh:

[doctorfate77]

any team with Fate has my vote. I know we're not voting, but I'm biased.

All Fate has to do is wave his hand and drop the lot of them in his tower. He and the rest of the JSA can have tea while the JLA attempts to find a way out against hoardes of mystical creatures and pitfalls.

[gladiator1518]

GA, Superman said that "Marvel has the advantage in "toe-to-toe combat" cause of his magic based powers. Superman has the advantage using hit and run tactics combined with ranged attacks(which CM doesn't have).

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by gladiator1518
Superman has the advantage using hit and run tactics combined with ranged attacks(which CM doesn't have).

Really? Is that your opinion or did you read it in a comic book???

I could just as easily say that Cap's god-given abilities make him faster, stronger, tougher, and wiser, than Superman and surrounded by a magical anti-superman aura. But then you'd debate that because it hasn't appeared in comics. (actually Cap (+ Mary and Jr.) made it to Pluto in seconds and has used his lightning to take down multiple opponents at once several times. Destroying an entire army with one bolt sounds like range to me.)

The only documented mention by one of these two concerning the other's power is Superman stating that Captain Marvel's magical nature gives him the advantage. Toe-to-toe yes. Otherwise... who knows - it’s all speculation at that point.

The real key here is that Superman isn't faster than Cap (especially in the Earth's atmosphere). Getting to range and staying there would be an impossibility for the Man of Steel. In fact, we've seen than in every encounter between the two, range was NOT an option.

So what you're saying is that Superman is stupid enough to fight Cap; the one being on the battlefield who’s proven (several times) that he can take him down? It doesn't take the Wisdom of Solomon to know that Superman would jockey for a new opponent. ;)

[DTM]

Im of the mindset that more often than not, Superman takes Captain Marvel.

That being said, the Main 7 JLA will take the JSA lineup above a great deal more than not as well. You should at least make the JSA a 7 member team, adding in Flash as GAs suggests is a good idea. That would make the teams ALOT closer, but even then Id go Main 7 JLA.

[gladiator1518]

Really? Is that your opinion or did you read it in a comic book???

It's my opinion. But if it's not true then why did Superman specify "toe-to-toe" combat? Why didn't he just say that Marvel has the advantage? It's also MY OPINION that Superman IS SLIGHTLY faster, SLIGHTLY stronger, AND SLIGHTLY more durable and NOTHING you say is gonna change MY OPINION. Being slightly faster IMO would give him a SMALL edge using hit and run tactics combined with ranged attacks. Just as I believe that Captain Marvel's "advantage" in hand to hand combat against Superman is SMALL.

I get tired of repeating this over and over but in one of Superman's annuals during the Eclipso: The Darkness Within series a mind controlled Superman going all out beat Captain Marvel decisively. Can you give me some post-crisis references where a FAIR fight between these two ended with CM being the clear victor?

Destroying an entire army with one bolt sounds like range to me.)

I've no idea what you're referring to but if Captain Marvel does indeed have some kind of effective ranged attack that he uses regularly then why doesn't ANY of his Heroclix representations have a ranged attack?

[DTM]

It's my opinion. But if it's not true then why did Superman specify "toe-to-toe" combat? Why didn't he just say that Marvel has the advantage? It's also MY OPINION that Superman IS SLIGHTLY faster, SLIGHTLY stronger, AND SLIGHTLY more durable and NOTHING you say is gonna change MY OPINION. Being slightly faster IMO would give him a SMALL edge using hit and run tactics combined with ranged attacks. Just as I believe that Captain Marvel's "advantage" in hand to hand combat against Superman is SMALL.

I get tired of repeating this over and over but in one of Superman's annuals during the Eclipso: The Darkness Within series a mind controlled Superman going all out beat Captain Marvel decisively. Can you give me some post-crisis references where a FAIR fight between these two ended with CM being the clear victor?


These are my thoughts exactly.

[Rando]

Even a man down I think the JSA win this. First and foremost they are innundated with magical ordnance. Think Superman can beat Captain Marvel (personaly I don't)? Well there isn't any need for Marvel to fight him when he can instead give Kyle a huge run and Sentinal can use his MAGIC starheart to ruin Superman. Fate can probably take Manhunter easily as Dr.Fate can probably produce the necessary fire type (that with negative psychological effects) to take Manhunter out quickly and effecitvely as well (and images of Hector's dead wife won't work becasue she isn't dead anymore, and he knows it). Power Girl and Wonder Woman I'd give to Wonder Woman, but not right away. Aquaman versus Hawkman and Batman versus Terrific won't even happen because Wally West will contain those fights without Jay to contain him (why no Golden Age Flash, he not rate or something?).

[PANZER]

Lets look at the matchups:

Superman X Captain Marvel - Superman wins (quickier)
Batman X Mr Terrific - Batman wins (smartest)
Martian Manhunter X Dr Fate - Martian Manhunter wins (mightiest being on earth)
Green Lantern x Sentinel - Sentinel wins (wrote the book)
Wonder Woman X Powerwoman - WW wins (personal preference, what I can say ...)
Flash X Jay - Flash wins (the metal hat is too heavy)

[Perfectstorm]

JLA are going to win this based on speed. With WW, Superman and Flash, I think they could get the jump on the JSA in more of a suprise round then anything. Withing the first second of the match, Flash has taken out Mr.T and has returned to his own spot. Without a Feild General and down 2 men the JSA are going to be hurting.

If MM attacks CM that fight could go on for a while, but I think MM would win. Saptain marvel beats superman due to the magical nature thing, but in reality, they are around the same power level in almost anything. On many Occassions superman has said the MM will beat him in a fight and there isnt much he can do about it.

That would leave Superman vs Power Girl. Yet again, Power girl is great but Superman has her number. anything she can do, he can do better.

The Green Lanterns face off. Alan will win in the long run, but this battle will be the last to finish so reinforcements may come proir to the end.

Flash, WW, and aquaman vs Dr. Fate. With a numbers advantage the JLA are going to be giving the extra men to take out fate, which is the JSAs strongest member, soley becuase he doesnt have a match on the other team. Fate will take out 2/3 but not everyoen. With WW and flashs speed pummeling him with all they have, and Aqua man providing another set of hands to block, they should be able to hit him faster then he can think, and Carter falls.

That leaves Batman and Hawkman. Batman can't win this battle unless he gets lucks with incapacitating him, however, batman can out taunt and dodge him. With some smoke bombs, using the cape to feign a body and the occassional Bola, Batman could probally hold Hawkman off until he gets help.

With the JLA haveing the numbers advantage from the start, and having the flash to take any normal human out of the fight before anyone else can even think about stratagy, so Mr. Terriffic is beaten before he can even think about how to use his T-spheres to his advatage.

[Col. Orange]

JLA for the win.

Superman is DC's numbero uno ICON - he can beat anyone in a fair fight. And I'm assuming we're playing matched pairs here.

Batman, DC's ICON for sneakiness and improvisation. He'd wipe the floor with Terrific. Even if he's mis-matched with a JSA beat-stick he can tie them up almost indeffinately.

WonderWoman...
Vs. PowerGirl? Cool fight. WW by a whisker.
Vs. Hawkman? Am I right in thinking she's stronger and faster? If so, it's a breeze for her, no matter how well trained Hawkman is.

GLs... First vote Hal. Then Sentinel. Then the other monkies.

Flashes... Fastest man wins.


Long story short, the only JSAer who totally prevents the JLA from trouncing them is Fate.
I don't buy that, "I wave my hand and all these troublesome problems will go away" stuff. Otherwise he'd never be in comics - there'd be no point, he'd do it everytime their was trouble.
That said, as long as no-one was standing right next to him before he got his ju-ju working, I doubt there'd be anyone he couldn't take out.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by gladiator1518
Destroying an entire army with one bolt sounds like range to me.)

I've no idea what you're referring to but if Captain Marvel does indeed have some kind of effective ranged attack that he uses regularly then why doesn't ANY of his Heroclix representations have a ranged attack?

JSA #36: Batson summons the lightning - takes out at least a dozen of Ultra Humanite’s White Gorilla warriors in the blast.

JSA #43: Marvel arrives in desert to save Hawkgirl and Terrific from an army of Vandal Savages sand warriors. Marvel summons lightning - turns the entire sand warrior army to glass - Billy summons lightning - shatters the entire army.

He doesn't do it often (a little less often than Superman using his freeze breath) but it does happen. Interestingly enough, Marvel's friends were always in the magical lightning's area of affect - but never injured. It appears that the lightning attack is powerful AND selective.

Perhaps if you read more of Marvel you'd be less prone to jump onto the Superman bandwagon.:cheeky:

The nice thing is that, starting in April, we will get to see allot more of Marvel in DC.

It all starts in Action Comics #826 where Cap teams up with Superman for a spectacular 3-part story that brings together the Man of Steel and Captain Marvel called "Lightning Strikes"!
In Part 1, the wizard Shazam makes Captain Marvel aware of a great evil awakened in Metropolis and seeking Superman. On its path to the Man of Steel, it drives the citizens of Metropolis to insanity. How can Superman stop the madness? Will he need the help of Captain Marvel and the power of Shazam?
The story is continued in ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #639 and ends in SUPERMAN #216 where the great evil turns Superman against Captain Marvel!!!!!

Mayhap we'll learn who is the most powerful then??? :cool:

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by gladiator1518
It's my opinion... that Superman IS SLIGHTLY faster...

Again, obviously a personal perspective... But let me remind you of Flash #107:

Wherin Billy Batson calls down the power of SHAZAM. Before the lightning hits Billy Flash grabs him and takes off thinking he is in danger. Flash cannot outrun the lightning bolt of SHAZAM and it hits Billy. After it hits Flash wonders what happened to the kid. Captain Marvel just smiles and says he took care of it. Flash asks if he gets his incredible speed from the speed force. Captain Marvel says no he gets it from the God of speed Murcury. Flash is amazed.

Is Flash faster? Maybe, but he was never amazed by Superman's speed. ;)

[DTM]

Im wondering GA, out of those 2 JSA issues you quote above showing CM using range, when did they appear relative to Kingdom Come #4? It seems CM never had any ranged attacks to speak off before then, but since then it seems writers are saying "wow, thats a great idea" and are now using his SHAZAM lightning as a possible, though very rarely used it seems, ranged attack for him these days.

[bootkneelee]

BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!!

I'll take JSA over JLA just for the fact that their team [JSA] is more old school than the JLA... and you know whatthey say about Old Age and Wisdom vs. Youth and Enthusiasm! :devious:


But straight up, when Batman and Superman were going Buckwild, Mr. Terrific sent Hawkman and Shazam telling them that they'd be the only two who could and would take them... and they failed;)

Ultimately if you have Bats and Superman on the same team, they win!

[GoldenAge]

#36 came out July 2002
#43 - February 2003

I believe Kingdom Come came out in '98.

BTW the idea of Marvel frying someone was explored over a decade earlier in Legends #1 1986, by John Ostrander and Len Wein.

As far as other things Marvel can do with his lightning. Post and pre Crisis he's used it to change his suit to include deep space breathing apparatus. So who's to say WHAT it's capable of. We just know it as the Power of Zeus! ;)

[SaferSephiroth]

He used it offensively in "The Death of Clark Kent."

[thugit]

Superman wouldn't fight Marvel....he'd know that he needed to go against a different opponent and the JLA have enough powerhouses to force the issue. Here's my breakdown:


Superman > Power Girl. It's not as close as GoldenAge would have you believe. ;) If Superman thought there was real trouble, he would put her down quickly.

Batman > Mr. Terrific. Mr. Terrific can out-tech Batman BARELY, but Batman will force a hand to hand confrontation that Mr. T has no hope of winning.

Green Lantern (Hal) > Green Lantern (Alan) This would be a marquee match, too....I just think that Hal has him. Alan would be more than a match for him and Hal would be drained afterwards.

Flash (Wally) > Flash (Jay). Wally is faster....that's the deciding factor for me.

Wonder Woman < Captain Marvel. Diana is enough of a warrior to drag this out and weaken Cap....but Cap is too much for her in the end.

Hawkman > Aquaman. Not that close. If Arthur could get near water, he'd win easily--Carter is FAR too smart for that, though, plus his flight will make it nearly impossible for Arthur to get near any water...

Martian Manhunter = Dr. Fate. I don't know how this one shakes out.... Both are wickedly powerful. Fate is less likely to "pull his punches" than J'onn....that could be the difference maker.


That leaves

Superman
Batman
Flash
Green Lantern (probably useless at this point)
Martian Manhunter

against

Captain Marvel
Dr. Fate
Hawkman

At that point, the JLA has a serious numbers/power advantage.

[thugit]

Why is everyone using Kyle instead of Hal?

The big seven of the JLA is

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
The Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern (Hal)
Flash (Wally) *Not counting Barry since he's actually had the sense to stay dead--the one underused superpower*
Aquaman

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by thugit
Green Lantern (Hal) > Green Lantern (Alan) This would be a marquee match, too....I just think that Hal has him. Alan would be more than a match for him and Hal would be drained afterwards.

Thugit, would it matter if the JLA Green Lantern was Kyle Raynor instead of Hal?
gladiator 1518 previously stated that it was. None the less, lets assume it is...

That leaves

Superman
Batman
Flash
Martian Manhunter

against

Green Lantern
Captain Marvel
Dr. Fate
Hawkman


Things look a bit more sticky now, don't they?

[chase_jyd]

I'm going to vote for the JLA, for one reason, and one reason only - the man advantage.

Both teams are good, and match up across the spectrum a lot of the way.

Fate can do a lot as a wildcard to help even the odds, but so can J'onn.

Fate also isn't the only JSA'er to wield magic - Fate, Cap. Marvel and Alan all have a magical side to their powers, which could majorly tip the scales if they had the ability to dictate the matchups. But with a man advantage, the JLA can afford to have someone purely to tie up a mismatch possibility, whether its having Wonder Woman get in Marvel or Cap's face, having Aquaman let Bats decide whether he'd rather face Terrific or Hawkman, etc.

Everyone keeps breaking it down to one on one match-ups. Really, it could go a lot of different ways. As a team though, there's a huge amount of power here, and the JLA can better afford to either let Batman or J'onn stand back and observe, or play field general than the JSA can.

If the JSA had Jay, it would be different. With an even field, Bats is just as pressed to fight instead of relaying tactics as Terrific or Hawkman, and the JSA can better decide who fights Superman.

Add him, I vote JSA. 6 on 7, JLA all the way.

[thugit]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Thugit, would it matter if the JLA Green Lantern was Kyle Raynor instead of Hal?
gladiator 1518 previously stated that it was. None the less, lets assume it is...



Yes, it matters quite a bit....


Alan could beat Kyle....he can't beat Hal.


On top of being viewed as the greatest Green Lantern by everyone not named Batman, Hal is also on a slightly higher power scale.


Hal would beat Alan...

[chase_jyd]

Hal vs. Alan is tough to say. They've worked together, and performed similarly impressive feats. Both are among the super heavyweights.

Alan has more experience and a magic side to his powers.

Hal is the greatest of the GL Corps.

As a reader of pretty much everything GL for a couple of decades, I'd put this one as too close to call, other than the fact Alan still has the same weakness as always, while Hal, now, has no inherent weakness.

Alan would beat Kyle though.

But the fact that Hal can at least fight to a draw with one of the two biggest guns the JSA has, leaving Superman, Wonder Woman, The Flash and J'onn still to match up, I still give the overall match to the JLA, even if the GL is Kyle, due to the numbers advantage.

[thugit]

I have a feeling that from now on Hal is going to be written as one of the more powerful heroes in the DCU. (Even more than he ever was before...)

[The Red Baron]

KYLE CAN BEAT ALAN SCOTT, he is just not as cool. look at virture and vice, kyle pwns scott.

[thugit]

Kyle COULD beat Alan, but he probably wouldn't.


With that ring, there aren't many people Kyle COULDN'T beat.

[Maniac_nmt]

I'd be tempted to pick the JSA. The JLA all look up to them, which has been explored in several meetings between the team.

Sure Clark could curb stomp Power Girl, but I would tend to pick Jay over Wally, largely due to experience and temperment. Not that Wally isn't faster or anything, but Jay certainly has the mental game, the experience, and drive to beat the younger speedster if he had to.

Kyle vs Alan, or even Hal vs Alan, I'd solidly side with Alan, who wasted Obsidian not once, but twice when he was all powerful.

Cpt. Marvel can certainly rock with any of the heavy hitters in the JLA. Not saying he'd be in the best of shape, but he could certainly hold his own.

Fate is kind of hit or miss though. At times he's incredibly powerful, and others he's a chump. He's rookie enough at his powers, that even going full bore, I can see him loosing a fight to many people. Hector just doesn't have a solid enough command of his abilities for me to think he's a reliable win against anyone.

Batman vs Mr. Terrific? There is one the JLA could definately win. Micheal is a much better team player, and leader, but he's simply way out classed by Bruce when it gets to a punching match (which has also been hinted at that Bruce is the superior in the JLA/JSA holiday dinners and what not).

Just in general though, more of the JSA have been doing it longer, with more grit.

[gladiator1518]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Again, obviously a personal perspective... But let me remind you of Flash #107:

Wherin Billy Batson calls down the power of SHAZAM. Before the lightning hits Billy Flash grabs him and takes off thinking he is in danger. Flash cannot outrun the lightning bolt of SHAZAM and it hits Billy. After it hits Flash wonders what happened to the kid. Captain Marvel just smiles and says he took care of it. Flash asks if he gets his incredible speed from the speed force. Captain Marvel says no he gets it from the God of speed Murcury. Flash is amazed.

Is Flash faster? Maybe, but he was never amazed by Superman's speed. ;) How do you know for sure? How do you know you haven't missed a comic where Flash was amazed by Superman's speed? Are you saying you've read every single comic which shows Superman using his speed in Flash's presence?

Also Superman is much more widely known in the DCU than Captain Marvel is, correct? He is more widely known as being uber powerful. Almost everyone knows just how super strong, super tough, and superfast he is. I'm sure Flash has seen Superman use his superspeed alot and if Superman did some kind of similar and just as impressive superspeed feat(which I'm certain he could) than the one Marvel did in the example above it wouldn't amaze Flash because he already knows what Superman can do. But when Marvel did it it amazed him because he didn't realize that he had Superman level superspeed.

[PANZER]

With all those magic problems, JLA should really hire DR STRANGE :p .

...

I wish there was more comic appearances from Captain Marvel ... I think that hes way underestimated.

[thugit]

I think Flash was tricked because he didn't see Captain Marvel "save" Billy Batson.

It wasn't the speed--it was the sleight of hand.... Wally just didn't realize it.

[Q99]

Wherin Billy Batson calls down the power of SHAZAM. Before the lightning hits Billy Flash grabs him and takes off thinking he is in danger. Flash cannot outrun the lightning bolt of SHAZAM and it hits Billy. After it hits Flash wonders what happened to the kid. Captain Marvel just smiles and says he took care of it. Flash asks if he gets his incredible speed from the speed force. Captain Marvel says no he gets it from the God of speed Murcury. Flash is amazed.

Is Flash faster? Maybe, but he was never amazed by Superman's speed.

I'll point out that's not so much CM's speed, but him being the kid and not telling Flash :laugh:

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by gladiator1518
How do you know for sure? How do you know you haven't missed a comic where Flash was amazed by Superman's speed? Are you saying you've read every single comic which shows Superman using his speed in Flash's presence?

:grin: Heh,

No, I cannot say I've read every single comic that shows Superman using his speed in Flash's presence. But I'm quite sure I'm better read than many others.

The point is... show your proof. I will rely on you to show me what is true. Not what you think is true, but evidence that I can reference that points to a new conclusion.

Obviously every hero in history has been depicted with a wide and varying array of powers. I'm willing to look at them all and find a median. But until other debaters start presenting me with quantifiable examples of their arguments I'll keep calling their opinions hearsay and suppositions. ;)

I need to learn too. So show me where I can read the kind of stuff that will prove that Superman could consistently defeat Captain Marvel. I've been kind enough to give you several references (here and in other posts) that show that Cap can, at the very least, hold his own against - if not better - Superman. Where’s the proof to the contrary?

I mean this in the vein of fun and fanboyism… I’m not here to condemn Superman. He ranks in my top 5 favorite heroes (today). ;)

[thugit]

In terms of power and ability, Superman has Captain Marvel beat.


Unfortunately for Kal-El, Captain Marvel is VERY powerful and has a specific ability that directly counters Superman.



If the fate of the universe were on the line, I'd say Superman would beat him just because NO ONE has more resolve than Clark.....in any sparring match/other fight, I'd have to give the edge to Marvel....

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Q99
[b]I'll point out that's not so much CM's speed, but him being the kid and not telling Flash :laugh:

Really?

I believe we'd all agree that Marvel can outrace his lightning. We've seen him do it. And thanks to Flash #107 (a Flash book, not a Marvel book) we also know that Flash cannot outrace the lightning. That tells me that Marvel's pretty darn fast.

[Rando]

An important aspect of this matchup that I think has gone much over looked is the fact that the members of the JSA do not have to battle their oppositte number, Captain Marvel can just as easily fight Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter as Superman, the same is true for all of the "top 4" people (Power Girl, Dr.Fate, Sentinel, and Captain Marvel). The JLA on the other hand doesn't have this luxury, two of JSA's big 4 use magic as their means of attack, Superman cannot stand in battle against them for long, at least one can almost certainly call up Martian Manhunter's weakness, while the JLA have no real easy way to shut down any of their foes. The JLA only has an edge (and then only maybe) if they get to fight their most similar foe, if people start switching opponents then it is going to hurt the JLA enourmously, but not the JSA.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by thugit
In terms of power and ability, Superman has Captain Marvel beat.

Unfortunately for Kal-El, Captain Marvel is VERY powerful and has a specific ability that directly counters Superman.

If the fate of the universe were on the line, I'd say Superman would beat him just because NO ONE has more resolve than Clark.....in any sparring match/other fight, I'd have to give the edge to Marvel....

I TOTALLY agree with this!

[thugit]

I disagree, Rando.


With Superman, Wonder Woman and the Martian Manhunter, the JLA has enough power to "force" which opponents they go against.



Honestly, the wildcard would be Batman. Who knows how many ways he has thought up to take down the JSA? We all agree he'll beat Terrific, but then he just disappears.....

[GoldenAge]

We have to remember that just about everything we know and love about Superman is the result of the influence of Captain Marvel!

Do you like that Superman is strong enough to pull a moon? Well, before Captain Marvel stole the love of the children from the Man of Steel, Superman was only strong enough to stop a locomotive.

Do you like the fact that Superman can fly? You guessed it, Superman's flight was a result of competition with a certain superhero in red and gold. Before Captain Marvel all Superman could do is leap great distances simulating flight.

Do you like the fact that Superman can outrace any other hero with super-speed? Well, before Captain Marvel appeared with the Speed of Mercury all Superman could outrace was a speeding bullet.

Like Supergirl, Superboy and that crazy dog? Yup, all imitations of the Marvel Family.

Yes, Superman was the first true depiction of a superhero in spandex. But he wasn’t all that super until he was pushed to greatness by CAPTAIN MARVEL…So, lets give some credit where it's due. ;)

[Rando]

Batman doesn't really concern me that much. He may have thought up ways to beat these guys but it is unlikely he is carrying them on his person at all times. Furthermore can he even disappear? What is the terrain like, even Batman can't hide in nothing.

Even if you think that JLA's big three can force their foes to fight them on their terms on just a 4 on 4 match (and I personaly don't) then there is still Hawkman. By virtue of his flight he can disregard Aquaman until he deceides to fight him, and he is a relevant threat to most of the top 4 characters, not someone that can beat them in a fight with any real regularity, but not someone that can be ignored either, so even if the JSA's top 4 can't force matchups they want on their own they have a 5th player to "grease the wheels" as it were.

[thugit]

Again, I disagree. Batman can hide pretty much anytime, anyplace.


That's one aspect of him that has always been around and is one of my favorite aspects of the character.


In broad daylight, he disappeared from Superman AND the Martian Manhunter. He can hide from anyone whenever he wants to.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by thugit
Honestly, the wildcard would be Batman. Who knows how many ways he has thought up to take down the JSA? We all agree he'll beat Terrific, but then he just disappears.....

I don't know about this battle. It may take longer than any other. Batman is the best, no doubt (if you're talking the JLA Uberbat - you know, the one Thugit loves so much). But he's not just jumping in on Terrific and ending the contest.

Traffic’s T-Spheres combined with his T-Mask make it virtually impossible for Batman to sneak up on Michael. Batman will have to creatively work through multiple layers of terrific defense (pun intended), all without the use of his cowl's visual enhancements. Then he'll have to battle a man near his equal in martial arts.

Terrific will never simply jump into H-T-H with batman. Arguably he's smarter than Batman. He'd be sure to keep the Bat occupied throughout this competition. The effort will take Terrific out of the mix as well, but I'm certain that Michael is confident that, without leadership, his teammates are better suited to work together as a team than the JLA.

It's a sacrifice that the uberego'd Batman would NEVER make!

[thugit]

I don't think Terrific is that close to Batman in martial arts skills....


(and when I talk about Batman, it's safe to assume that I'm ALWAYS referencing the 70's era Batman--not the new Superman that they have wearing Batman's costume.)


Even the old school *re: REAL* Batman would beat Mr. T 10 out of 10, GA. He's on a different level than Mr. T......

[GoldenAge]

I don't know. The way Michael aced Cobra makes me think differently.

Of course Batman is top 5, but Mr. Terrific might be top 10 or 20.

Lord, I'd love to see that list Cheshire keeps!;)

[Rando]

That list Shiva keeps.

[GoldenAge]

Oops, I meant Shiva

[Ro-gan]

I'm giving this battle to the JSA. The clincher is that the JLA is battling the JSA. The JSA, who are precursors to all heroes, and the awe they inspire will effectively cause the JLA to hold back a little bit.

The respect aspect will sway the battle in the JSA's favor 9 out of 10 of the times.

[thugit]

I don't think the "respect" is going to matter.


Who is Batman in awe of? Who doesn't he look down on? Even his boyhood hero the Sentinel doesn't impress him much anymore....


Wonder Woman? Made by gods....there's no one she's that in awe of.


Martian Manhunter? Hasn't ever struck me as in awe of anyone....

Aquaman? He's royalty--he's not going to react with awe....


Superman? It will actually be the exact opposite of what you guys are suggesting. EVERYONE in the DCU other than Batman looks up to Superman. Even the JSA....

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by thugit

Superman? It will actually be the exact opposite of what you guys are suggesting. EVERYONE in the DCU other than Batman looks up to Superman. Even the JSA....

Distinctly not true. Clark himself has stated Alan Scott is still the inspiration for all heros. That all the heros still look up to the JSA, for how it's done.

Oh, and let's not go to overboard on Cpt. Marvel/Superman, who generated who. Edgar Rice Burroughs had a hero out, in both book, and comic form, long before either of these two came bouncing along. With Super Strength, enhanced speed, Super Leaping, enhanced combat prowess, a radium gun (ie heat vision), etc. by the name of John Carter, Warlord of Mars.

[Ro-gan]

Originally posted by thugit
I don't think the "respect" is going to matter.


Who is Batman in awe of? Who doesn't he look down on? Even his boyhood hero the Sentinel doesn't impress him much anymore....


Wonder Woman? Made by gods....there's no one she's that in awe of.


Martian Manhunter? Hasn't ever struck me as in awe of anyone....

Aquaman? He's royalty--he's not going to react with awe....


Superman? It will actually be the exact opposite of what you guys are suggesting. EVERYONE in the DCU other than Batman looks up to Superman. Even the JSA....

Those are great and valid points, thugit.

But, what I meant, and it is solely my fault for not being clearer, is that the JSA has the respect and admiration of nearly all the heroes in the DCU for what they have accomplished before anyone else, not for who they are as individuals. Although, that does come into play, but your arguments handle this.

[PANZER]

Uberbat could beat JLA and JSA at the same time with his contigency plans! Tower of Babel sucks!

[bootkneelee]

Easy Panzer, Tower Of Babel showed that even the best laid plans of mice and men often go wrong or The road to Heck is paved with good intentions...


I don't Ollie [Green Arrow] In Awe of anyone but himself.
And as I stated before Capt. Marvel & Hawkman aren't impressed by Bats or Supes causethey were the 2 that went after them!

[gladiator1518]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
I need to learn too. So show me where I can read the kind of stuff that will prove that Superman could consistently defeat Captain Marvel. I've been kind enough to give you several references (here and in other posts) that show that Cap can, at the very least, hold his own against - if not better - Superman. Where’s the proof to the contrary? I NEVER said that CM couldn't "hold his own" against Superman. I think they're pretty evenly matched. Though I still think that Superman would win a slight majority against him. Nothing you've shown me convinces me that Captain Marvel would win the majority of fights between him and Superman.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
Distinctly not true. Clark himself has stated Alan Scott is still the inspiration for all heros. That all the heros still look up to the JSA, for how it's done.

Oh, and let's not go to overboard on Cpt. Marvel/Superman, who generated who. Edgar Rice Burroughs had a hero out, in both book, and comic form, long before either of these two came bouncing along. With Super Strength, enhanced speed, Super Leaping, enhanced combat prowess, a radium gun (ie heat vision), etc. by the name of John Carter, Warlord of Mars.

Hero, yes... but not Superhero.

Sure there were many fantastical heroes that superceded Superman. Pulp fiction is full of mystical and powered heroes from Doc Savage, The Spider, G-8 and his Battle Aces, The Avenger and Operator 5 to, of course, The Shadow. They ALL came before Superman... But none of them were superheroes in the classic form, complete with spandex and a cape. Only Superman can claim the distinction as the first superhero.

And only Captain Marvel can say he did it better.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by gladiator1518
Nothing you've shown me convinces me that Captain Marvel would win the majority of fights between him and Superman.

Except that Captain Marvel HAS won the majority of fights between he and Superman. Were some of them cheap shots or surprise maneuvers? Sure... But can you name me anyone else that can take Superman down in two punches? I don't care what the circumstances are, surprise or otherwise, even Doomsday couldn't do that.

[chase_jyd]

I think it still comes down to the numbers, at least in the challenge as its listed.

With the greater amount of speed, the JLA can pick their matchups. Superman doesn't have to fight CM, and either J'onn or Batman can sit back and be field generals, a luxury the JSA doesn't have.

Otherwise, the wildcard could just as easily be Hawkman. Not only is he a superb tactician and leader in his own right, he's also a closer analogy to Batman than Terrific, in a different fashion.

Bats can use his planning and training to take on people generally out of his league. Even if he doesn't win, he can delay most people far longer than he should be able to.

Hawkman is generally considered to be in the 'high level martial artist' range, but has held his own with Black Adam, and at least temporarily dropped Superman. With the Claw of Horus and his other artifacts, combined with his training and experience, he can operate, at least for a while, well beyond where he'd normally be considered.

If you add Jay to make it 7 on 7, having 3 magic-using powerhouses, and an equal ability to determine who matches up with who, I'd give it to the JSA.

[gladiator1518]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Except that Captain Marvel HAS won the majority of fights between he and Superman. Were some of them cheap shots or surprise maneuvers? Sure... But can you name me anyone else that can take Superman down in two punches? I don't care what the circumstances are, surprise or otherwise, even Doomsday couldn't do that. Sorry GA. I strongly disagree. IMO there are many other characters that could KO Superman with a couple of "sucker punches". Doomsday, Darkseid, Wonder Woman, Lobo, etc. and I'm sure there are some MU characters that could do it as well. But in a fair fight I don't think that Captain Marvel would beat Superman more than not. "Cheap shots", "surprise maneuvers", "sucker punches". Whatever you call them IMO that IS NOT a fair fight.

You said above that "some" of the fights between Superman and Captain Marvel were "cheap shots" or "surprise maneuvers". Can you give me post-crisis references where CM clearly defeated Superman in a FAIR FIGHT?

[nivco43]

I think a "accidental" death of anyone in the JLA would push Supes to the level of beating the JSA by his lonesome. .. Honestly we've seen what Supes can do when he gets really TICKED off... He'd starts crying like a baby.. then blam lights out JSA..




This is a guy that uses Darkseid as a punching bag.. while CM has a worm as his archenemy..

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Hero, yes... but not Superhero.

Sure there were many fantastical heroes that superceded Superman. Pulp fiction is full of mystical and powered heroes from Doc Savage, The Spider, G-8 and his Battle Aces, The Avenger and Operator 5 to, of course, The Shadow. They ALL came before Superman... But none of them were superheroes in the classic form, complete with spandex and a cape. Only Superman can claim the distinction as the first superhero.

And only Captain Marvel can say he did it better.

You can call them what you want. The reason Superman gets all the credit, is because he ended up a lot more famous that the others.

The Shadow certainly had his 'Crime Fighting Costume', John Carter wore a specialized suit (that all recognized as John Carter), and Flash Gordon (who both Superman, and Cpt. Marvel owe a LOT to) had his capes, and wildly colorful costumes (in addition to being the inspiration for most of modern sci-fi, and the original comic 'you can be galactus, I'll still kick your butt from here to hoboken and I'm just a man' never say die will).

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
You can call them what you want.

Wow, it'd be really cool if I were the only guy to make the distinction between pulp heroes and superheroes of the late '30s and beyond. Why, I could write a book and make some money!:grin:

Unfortunately, although I agree with the sentiment, it's not my idea. In fact it's been an accepted distinction for many, many years.

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
You said above that "some" of the fights between Superman and Captain Marvel were "cheap shots" or "surprise maneuvers". Can you give me post-crisis references where CM clearly defeated Superman in a FAIR FIGHT?

No. I can conjure up some conflicts between the two where there was no clear winner. I can produce issues of JLA where Cap cured (thus defeating) Superman utilizing the Wisdom of Solomon and I can present printed examples of Superman's absolute defeat after being surprised by Captain Marvel. I can even quote Superman when he says that Cap has a magical advantage.

The real question is... With whom does the burden of proof lie? Can YOU show me Superman (not possessed or mind controlled) beating Captain Marvel?

[gladiator1518]

GA, I think just about everybody knows that Captain Marvel has a magical advantage over Supe's. I never said he didn't. But why is the burden of proof just on me? Isn't it your belief that CM can beat Superman "consistently"? You certainly have not proven that he can. I don't think Superman would win against Marvel "consistently". As I've already stated I think it's an even match. But you seem to think that Captain Marvel is so superior to Superman.

What about Kingdom Come? Although Captain Marvel was winning with his magic lighting as soon as Superman gave up trying to reason with CM he simply got rid of him. Which to me is definately a Superman victory.

Also in Eclipso:The Darkness Within Superman, who was possesed by Eclipso and as a result fought alot more savagely, clearly defeated Marvel in one of the most awesome comic book battles of all time. Yes, Superman was mind controlled. But it was still a fair fight. Meaning there wasn't any "sucker punches" or "cheap shots" or "surprise maneuvers". It's a shining example of what Superman is capable of when he's not holding anything back.

[gladiator1518]

Oh, and by the way, I'm curious as to why you had Maniac_nmt's name appear over my quote.

[toDIEisGAIN]

Originally posted by nivco43
This is a guy that uses Darkseid as a punching bag.. while CM has a worm as his archenemy..

roflmho

Anyway. I gotta give the fight to the JLA. I admit i have not read nearly as much JSA as i have JLA, but from what i have seen JLA has this. JSA just seems to have less uber power. JLA has Supes and John as their two super heavy hitters to the JSA's Marvel (i dont view Sentinal, WW, or Power Girl in the same catagory as those 3). The JLA has the ultimate uber tactitian/thinker in Batman. Yeah Terrific is .....te...good but not like Bats. Wally is the Uber speed. It doesnt matter if Jay is a bit of a better "fighter". In the fight they will have speed will be everything and Wally has Jay beat on that. Alan and the JLA lantern (Hal or Kyle) are pretty evenly matched. The only factor the JSA has going for them is the Magic aspect. This is a big factor but not big enough to win imo.

[thugit]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
Distinctly not true. Clark himself has stated Alan Scott is still the inspiration for all heros. That all the heros still look up to the JSA, for how it's done.





So you're saying that the JSA gets more respect/awe than Superman?



Not even close. Superman is THE hero in the DCU. I gave legitimate examples of the JLA not being in awe of anyone--however, everyone except Batman gives a great deal of respect to Superman.

[jedah_s]

my comics knowledge is shaky somtimes so lets see if i have this right.

jsa members with super speed... powergirl(?), captain marvel, jay garrick.

jla members with superspeed... superman, martian manhunter, wonder woman, wally west.

team with a team member who can lend the speed force to his teammates?
jla.
wally can lend the speed force to individual members, or to the whole group. the jsa doesn't have much of a chance if all 7 of the jla come at them at flash level speeds.

as a side note, i've already seen mention of hawkman's claw of horus. to the best of my knowledge thas not something he carries with him regularly. he only had it because he knew he would be fighting superman. if both teams get planning time so that hawkman can have his powerglove.... then bats gets planning time, and we all know what happens then.

anyways, all this is imo. just wanted to chime in.

[Maniac_nmt]

how did my name come up in GA's second quote?

[Q99]

What about Kingdom Come? Although Captain Marvel was winning with his magic lighting as soon as Superman gave up trying to reason with CM he simply got rid of him. Which to me is definately a Superman victory.

Superman won, but he'd been increasing in power constantly, well above modern Superman, and the champions of Shazam don't. That was equal-to-modern Marvel vs. stronger-than-modern Superman. And he was still the only guy they had that could reliably stop him (and Marvel did delay him enough for stuff to truly go down).

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Q99
What about Kingdom Come? Although Captain Marvel was winning with his magic lighting as soon as Superman gave up trying to reason with CM he simply got rid of him. Which to me is definately a Superman victory.

Superman won, but he'd been increasing in power constantly, well above modern Superman, and the champions of Shazam don't. That was equal-to-modern Marvel vs. stronger-than-modern Superman. And he was still the only guy they had that could reliably stop him (and Marvel did delay him enough for stuff to truly go down).

Not to mention that Captain Marvel was obviously NOT benefiting from his connection to the Wisdom of Solomon due to the years of emotional reprogramming he'd suffered at the hands of Luthor.

BTW: I have no idea how I got Maniac_nmt name over gladiator1518's quote. :confused:

This little snafu could lead to a deluge of misrepresentation and subterfuge!!! :devious:

[gladiator1518]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Not to mention that Captain Marvel was obviously NOT benefiting from his connection to the Wisdom of Solomon due to the years of emotional reprogramming he'd suffered at the hands of Luthor.He used that wisdom at the end didn't he? When Superman asked him what should be done about the nuclear bomb coming at them.

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by GoldenAge

BTW: I have no idea how I got Maniac_nmt name over gladiator1518's quote. :confused:

This little snafu could lead to a deluge of misrepresentation and subterfuge!!! :devious:

I'm scared for life, and must now go into my corner and cry.:(

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by gladiator1518
He used that wisdom at the end didn't he? When Superman asked him what should be done about the nuclear bomb coming at them.

Actually no. Superman appealed to the humanity of Billy Batson. He pleaded for Billy to "let the brainwashing go..."

Superman broke through Luthor's programming by impressing upon Billy and Captain Marvel's greatest attribute... heroism. And with the Wisdom of Solomon Captain Marvel found a third option, an option that Superman hadn't considered...


SHAZAM! SHAZAM! SHAZAM!!!

[Eric2]

This has been a really interesting thread.

If in clix it would go something like this:

JLA

KC Superman 265
Batman 111
Wonder Woman 126
Green Lantern 165
Martian Manhunter 177
Flash 98
Arthur Curry 51

Total: 993

JSA

Captain MArvel with Fortitude 192
Dr. Fate 155
Green Lantern with TS 245
Flash with AP 111
Power Girl with AP 130
Mr.Terrific with AP and Taunt 105
Carter Hall 54

Total:992

Who would win this one?

Eric

[techdog]

Very interesting, and mostly well debated thread by all in it, so congrats on that.

I think the JSA would win, cause I think they are smart enough to not pair up into match-ups. I know that the "in" thing to do is break it down into one on one battles, but with the JSA being outnumbered I am not sure they would go for that, I also think that the T-Spheres hold just as much info on all the combatants as does Bats head, so I am not giving Batman and advantage on that one. I think that the real batman(not the uber bat, I hate that guy), can be taken out from one of the big hitters, like Power-girl or Dr.Fate, I mean, fate could send Bats to his temple(he sent half of the JSA and JLA there in the Eclipso stroyline, can't remember the number, I can find it later). If he can do it then, why can't he send all or some there now? Also, Fate can counter Superman enough to slow him down to be beaten by Marvel, or Marvel can take out Wonder Woman in a battle of god's champions. I also think Sentinel or Alan takes every GL in the Corps(except Hal), and since Kyle was in the team at the start of this, he is in now, but, Alan would more than likely take on Martian Manhunter. I think Alan can win that one, and if not I am sure that a team up of Power-girl and Capt Marvel can swing the fight. I think the JSA win, but that is just my opinion.

[The Red Baron]

well first the jla should get feat cards but they would still win, and people jla will win every time if manhunter wished them to

[Eric2]

I didn't give the JLA feat cards because the JSA needed them to match the JLA's point total.

As it stands, who wins?