View Full Version : TV Cartoon Battles: Super-Heavyweight Division: Round 3, Match 1
And now we are down to 8. A final 8, of which 4 combatants shall move on and another 4 fall in defeat. Which are which, as always, that is up TO YOU.
Now without further adieu, allow me to present your next battle in a BRAND NEW (Actually unless youre from Mars, these are pretty old hat by now) type of Tournament Of Champions:
VENGER (DUNGEONS & DRAGONS)
VS.
LORD HAZANKO (OUTLAW STAR)
As always, same rules apply, no time to prepare, POOFed from where ever they were, with only what they routinely carry on them AND/OR routinely used in their shows, to fight in a Large area til one stands and one falls. YOU decide Who.
Randomly Chosen Area:
Another Planet - The dull, grey rock plains are broken up by strangely shaped trees of wild colouring. Wondrous alien plants will try to ensnare any one that gets too close. Small, clustered groups of crumbling ruins are the only indication that intelligent life ever lived here.
(Inspired by: Space Ghost, Herculoids, Star Trek (the cartoon))
Thanks all, and enjoy.
And REMEMBER, if youre not sure who someone is here, ASK. Theres PLENTY of people here who can tell you most anything youd like to know. Thanks again.
ALSO, please do your best to respect everyones votes, reasonings and opinions here. If you believe your character should win, but doesnt in the end, dont hold grudges against the character that beat yours, or call the votes that allowed this to happen "fanboy" arguments or plain and simply wrong. We all have our own way of thinking and voting here, with each one of our thoughts and ideas as valid as your own. Lets do what we can, even in the heat of an argument, to respect that. Thanks.
TV CARTOON TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS Part 4
ROUND 1
He-Man vs. Oberon: Oberon (12 - 7)
Tiamat vs. Superion: Tiamat (15 - 4)
Big O vs. The Gundam: Big O (7 - 0)
Omega Supreme vs. Hordak: Omega Supreme (7 - 0)
Godzilla vs. Imhotep: Godzilla (9 - 2)
Genie vs. Ryoko: Genie (11 - 10)
Shendu vs. Legato Bluesummers: Shendu (11 - 4)
King Hiss vs. Voltron (Vehicle Form): Voltron (Vehicle Form) (8 - 2)
Venger vs. Devastator: Venger (7 - 2)
Space Ghost vs. BlackWarGreymon: Space Ghost (10 - 5)
Metlar vs. Mewtwo: Mewtwo (10 - 1)
Sailor Saturn vs. Gundam Deathscyth v.2: Gundam Deathscyth v.2 (7 - 3)
Dracula vs. Wiseman: Wiseman (8 - 7)
Lord Hazanko vs. Mozenrath: Lord Hazanko (5 - 4)
Talpa vs. Experiment 627: Talpa (5 - 2)
Pyron vs. Voltron (Lion Form): Pyron (7 - 6)
ROUND 2
Tiamat vs. Godzilla: Tiamat (10 - 3)
Shendu vs. Lord Hazanko: Lord Hazanko (9 - 8)
Genie vs. Pyron: Pryon (10 - 8)
Wiseman vs. Voltron (Vehicle Form): Wiseman (8 - 0)
Big O vs. Oberon: Oberon (8 - 2)
Space Ghost vs. MewTwo: Mewtwo (9 - 4)
Venger vs. Gundam Deathscyth v.2: Venger (9 - 0)
Omega Surpeme vs. Talpa: Omega Supreme (8 - 5)
ROUND 3
Lord Hazanko vs. Venger: ??????
13 Down, 3 To Go
Venger (Dungeons & Dragons) – In a realm of might and magic, there is none more evil than the dreaded demon, Venger. A Master level sorcerer and wizard, capable of nearly every magical feat known in the D&D universe, this demon is Lord to virtually every vile, loathsome creature of evil in his entire world, save for Tiamat, the Dragon Queen. He also routinely rides a flying Nightmare, a dark and evil demon horse of darkness and flame, which he can and has attacked from while atop his mount. His main goal in the series stems around the capture of the magic weapons from Dungeons Master’s pupils, which will grant him the added power to defeat Tiamat, and then possibly one day his father…..the Dungeon Master himself.
Lord Hazanko (Outlaw Star) - Hazanko is an enormously powerful Tau Master, he may be the most powerful Tau user in the galaxy. The Outlaw Star universe is similar to Star Wars in many ways, and Tau is very similar to The Force (only with more visual effects). Tau can be used to dramatically heighten the users physical abilities, like the agility, strength, and durability, it can also be used to generate spiritual constructs (like a huge dragon made of spiritual energy) and project telekinetic like force or a magnitude dependant upon the wielder, those skilled in ti's use can also generate other, more case specific effects (like placing a homing beacon on something that cannot be removed and can be sensed at limitless distance, or achieving a rapor with animals). Hazanko disdains the more warrior like aspects of the Tau prefering to focus on telekinetic might (on a scale that probably allows him to significantly damage capital scale ships) and phenomenal physical durability (Hazanko was once attacked by a miniature sigilarity that engulfed him and collapsed upon itself, he then forced it back open and climbed back out).
Gonna have to go with Venger. Hazanko's telekinetic powers, I doubt, could defend him against Vennger's all-out offenseive magic.
WOW...what I wouldn't do to see this battle actually take place. They are going to destroy each other. I am very torn right now....Venger has the sheer power of the dark magic and can fly on that horse but Hazanko has the power of the Tau which we learned is a powerful force as well. What do you all think (those who watched Outlaw Star since I watched D&D)? Terrain is not an issue...its gonna be a brawl out in the open. Whose magic is greater?
Venger has the power to cast nearly every spell in AD&D, in addition to having all of the advantages of being an Arch Devil/Demon Lord in AD&D as well. Like several others in this SHW class, he is considered a Lesser God, and is amazingly powerful any way you put it.
My vote lies with Venger as well, who has a vast multitude of offensive and defensive spells at his disposal, not to mention vast experience, intellect and cunning. Im sure this will be close, as will all of the battles from now on (whether the votes show it or not) but im supporting Venger, Son Of Dungeon Master, to take the win here and advance further.
Going with Venger (after some careful deliberation). You are right, Venger has the offensive capabilities of the D&D world and has more mojo than Lord Hazanko. He has the experience, the power, and the trickyness. Venger to round 4!
Heck, the guy had the B@lls and the power to order around Lolth, the Spider Queen (who was actually in an episode), thats gotta say something.
I'm gonna vote for Hazanko
First and foremost Hazanko doesn't have to deal with casting times and spell disruption, he seems to be above such things, while Vengar, like all D&D wizards can have his spells countered by getting hurt. In addition the offensive powers of D&D spells isn't really that amazeing, most strong fighters can dish out more damage per round than a wizard can to a single target barring all but the most powerful of magical attacks (which Vengar probably can't throw but so many of) compared to military and vehicular ordnace fireballs and ice stroms aren't really very damageing, which tells me that Hazanko will be hitting Vengar a lot harder than vice versa. Finally I think Hazanko is a lit tougher, I doubt very much that Vengar could survive getting sucked into a black hole.
hail_eris
03/28/2005, 14:51
Originally posted by Rando
First and foremost Hazanko doesn't have to deal with casting times and spell disruption, he seems to be above such things, while Vengar, like all D&D wizards can have his spells countered by getting hurt.
Well, Venger is a demon or devil or some such. They get a whole basket of powers that they can use with no casting time, along with a whole mess of immunities. Also, Contingency is a spell that virtually all high-level casters keep active at all times. If Venger actually gets into any kind of trouble, Contingency will trigger and he'll unleash a storm of offensive magic with no warning.
Did Venger carry any magical items? I can't remember off hand and those things have no casting time either...
Venger cast all of his spells instantaneous on the show, and to my recollection Never had any of his spells interrupted.
Contingency only sets off spells that's target is the caster (most often some kind of teleport), and you can only have one set up at a time, it is only used as a defensive option not to basket offensive magic together.
Originally posted by DTM
Venger cast all of his spells instantaneous on the show, and to my recollection Never had any of his spells interrupted.
Did he ever get hit?
hail_eris
03/28/2005, 15:18
Originally posted by Rando
Contingency only sets off spells that's target is the caster (most often some kind of teleport), and you can only have one set up at a time, it is only used as a defensive option not to basket offensive magic together.
Well, that's how it works for human wizards with 40 hit points. I figured that Venger wouldn't have anything as self-preservation oriented as Teleport without Error keyed into it. Still, I could have sworn that there was a spell that allowed you to fast cast flashy Invo./Evo. stuff. Not that it really matters in this context anyway.
The various D&D comics and cartoons have played *really* fast and loose with things like casting times and spell components. And I don't remember Venger ever being slowed up for the thirty seconds (or whatever it takes) to cast Fireball. I'm still holding off on voting, but I think that this will be decided less by the one who can unload firstest with the mostest. I see it being much more of an endurance contest - whichever one has the most staying power will get my support...
There were two spells created by The Simbul in Forgotten Realms that worked kind of like that (they bundled three spells of up to level 3 or up to level 5 togther that went off insnstantly after you said a single word), but only she knows them. I'm not sure if they were introduced until second edition though.
Rokk_Krinn
03/28/2005, 15:44
Hanzanko needs his mind to really focus his powers. A spell I'm pretty certain Vengar would have - backed by the Fiendish mind powers - would be Confusion (as well as Mind Blank for his own protection in case Hanzanko tries anything psionic). Going to be hard to focus the Tau(o) that way before a disintegrate hits.
Vote: Vengar
Being a tremedously advanced magical practiotiner himself that has exhibited not only resistance, but in some cases outright immunity to magical effects designed specificaly to be highly effective against Tao masters leads me to believe that Hazanko is likely to be very difficult to effect with abilities that can be outright resisted (like Confusion and Disintigrate, which also needs to hit him).
protectorate
03/28/2005, 17:57
I think Venger has more options available to him, and that will make the difference.
Hazanko is pure power, while Venger is power and versatility.
Venger for the win.
Rokk_Krinn
03/28/2005, 18:26
Just thought I'd double-check that it was Rando who was posting about the relative weakness of Vengar's magic. :) I mean, this is the same person who talked about Tiamat one-shotting Godzilla, right? :) Same deal here with Vengar - Hanzanko's good but his "magic" is a bit different than D&D magic and I'm not sure he can stand against, say, a combined assault of Meteor Storm, Power Word: Kill, Bigby Hand's and whatever else while Vengar is protected by Prismatic Sphere and, oh, Anti-Magic Spells (which, if Tau is magical, shuts down Hanzanko instantly, right?) :)
hail_eris
03/28/2005, 18:28
Hey, looks like we got our forum. And new posts still show up on the front page...
Yeah, awesome. Are all the threads gonna move to the new subforum, or what?
I'll toss in a vote for Venger. More raw power then Lord H can handle. My vote...
VENGER
Really...Venger is the most powerful evil demon-wizard type creation whose only third to the Dungeon Master and Tiamat. Raw power alone, Venger has this one. Venger has an arsenol of both offensive AND defensive magic. I am not even sure that Venger can disrupt the spells that Venger is casting...he is a high level...and he never had his spells interrupted in the show. Could Hazanko disrupt the spells with enough of his Tau mojo, sure...but not more than 50% of the time before Venger blows him to bits.
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Just thought I'd double-check that it was Rando who was posting about the relative weakness of Vengar's magic. :) I mean, this is the same person who talked about Tiamat one-shotting Godzilla, right? :) Same deal here with Vengar - Hanzanko's good but his "magic" is a bit different than D&D magic and I'm not sure he can stand against, say, a combined assault of Meteor Storm, Power Word: Kill, Bigby Hand's and whatever else while Vengar is protected by Prismatic Sphere and, oh, Anti-Magic Spells (which, if Tau is magical, shuts down Hanzanko instantly, right?) :)
Yes, this is the same person posting about one shoting a totally non-magical entity with a spell that will kill him instantly, mainly because that entity (Godzilla) wouldn't have any reason to be able to resist the plethora of "save or die" spells that innundate D&D. That doesn't work nearly as well against a highly magical entity who has very good odds to resist such things (which is true in the game as well, wizards are much better off useing direct damage against one another as most of the time it can't be avoided without special resistances in place and hitpoints are wizards weakest point). Meteor Strom would be rough, but not as rough as some of the things Hazanko has resisted, and again high level so there probably aren't too many available to Vengar, Power Word:Kill has a hit point requirment, that I'm betting Hazanko surpasses, the hand spells are probably not going to be to effective given the enourmous telekinetic power Hazanko has available to resist them (he can probably do so casualy), I'm almost certain that Prismatic sphere doesn't extend t.k. resistance (each color protects againt a specific thing, they list them in the soell description), the only straight up anti-magic spells I recall are anti-magic shell, which sticks to the caster and stops his magic as well allowing them to get in a fist fight I guess, and Dispel Magic which has a failure chance and probably won't be that useful since Hazanko doesn't have a spell list, he can just replace whatever Tao effects Dispel Magic knocks out, provided it is successful.
Rokk_Krinn
03/28/2005, 22:43
I was just throwing out random spells - I'm sure if someone wanted they could write up a good spell strategy - to show that Vengar has it in versatility. Most importantly, Vengar can cast anti-magic shell around himself. Sure, like you said, it requires a fist fight but in this case I'm going to give it to the hulking demon lord over Hazanko when it comes time for solid blows.
(Oh, and Prismatic Sphere pretty much stops everything - if Hazanko throws something solid, it gets stopped by the red layer which stops all non-magical missles, while pure TK energy itself would be stopped by the violet layer which is a pure force field that stops everything not stopped by earlier levels...actually, the indigo layer stops magic from reaching the caster, so that could work too :) )
Really...I don't think hit points count in the cartoon world. No one has hit points. This isn't D&D, this is a cartoon, based on D&D books. Hitpoints and saves don't apply. This isn't a dice chucking match...this is a tournament of champions. I can counter all the saves and whatnots with "Well, what if he fails all his saves?" Is that what this match is going to come down to??
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
I was just throwing out random spells - I'm sure if someone wanted they could write up a good spell strategy - to show that Vengar has it in versatility. Most importantly, Vengar can cast anti-magic shell around himself. Sure, like you said, it requires a fist fight but in this case I'm going to give it to the hulking demon lord over Hazanko when it comes time for solid blows.
(Oh, and Prismatic Sphere pretty much stops everything - if Hazanko throws something solid, it gets stopped by the red layer which stops all non-magical missles, while pure TK energy itself would be stopped by the violet layer which is a pure force field that stops everything not stopped by earlier levels...actually, the indigo layer stops magic from reaching the caster, so that could work too :) )
Theoretically, but I doubt it without giving Vengar total suprise. Really the versatility claim is very murky, Vengar obviously has a lot of spells, but all D&D spells are very specific in function, it would take like a dozen active spells to simulate just the forcefield that Hazanko has and even then it still wouldn't be even close to as good or truley accuratte (as there is nothing that just stops physical damage except stoneskin and that only stops a very few hits), similarly there are dozens of spells that all put together would almost, but not quite simulate telekinesis (magic missle, all the bigby spells, gust of wind, telekinesis, unseen servant, cantrips, wind wall, wall of stone or steel depending on terrain, probably a few more) and even with all that you still don't have the ability to just twist someone's head off or disperse an ice storm or catch an oncomeing meteor. Hazanko's ability to make monsters is like every summon spell in the game, only better as he chooses the exact abilitys of the creature (and they are all constructs). So while Hazanko has fewer listed abilities each one gives him a ton of options in reference to Vengar's, in addition Hazanko's don't run out, once Vengar throws a spell it's gone. Furthermore D&D spells are also very defensively specific, they are pretty much designed to stop specific spells that show up a lot, there isn't really very effective broad band defensive abilties, this is particularly threatening because almost nothing is designed to stop telekinetic effects (as telekinesis kind of sucks in D&D) meaning a lot of Vengar's defensive powers are of limited use. Similarly a lot of anti-wizard stuff exists to work againt guys that have a limited spell selection (example if you cast Dispel Magic on some wizard and knock out his defensive spells then he is screwed because he can't replace them) someone that has magical abilities that he can call upon over and over has a distinct advantage.
Vengar casting anti-magic shell is kind of like someone who paints himself yellow to fight Hal Jordan and thinks he's gotten away with something; he hasn't Hal is just gonna club him with an apartment building, only in Vengar's case he's giving up all his magical abilities and defenses to be yellow. The different colors in prismatic sphere also get expended when they stop their attack type, so Vengar can stop an attack once from Hazanko's essentially limitless supply, the sphere is also 2 way it stops mess from comeing out of it too.
Originally posted by MSU
Really...I don't think hit points count in the cartoon world. No one has hit points. This isn't D&D, this is a cartoon, based on D&D books. Hitpoints and saves don't apply. This isn't a dice chucking match...this is a tournament of champions. I can counter all the saves and whatnots with "Well, what if he fails all his saves?" Is that what this match is going to come down to??
That isn't exactly a counter argument when you consider the overlying principle that one should vote for the guy that will win more than 50% of the time. Claiming that well there is the chance that whoever fails their save is like saying well this guy could win like 10% of the time, it isn't a good reason to vote for someone. Additionally Vengar will know that most of the remainig competitors are tremendously resistant to magic he would be dumb to try and bank on throwing stuff that has little to no chance of success while his foe is pounding on him with stuff that always works, and hurts a lot.
If you don't like the hitpoint and saves stuff then ask yourself "do I think Vengar's foe would be reasonably easy to affect with some spell that takes over his mind or turns him into a minnow or whatever". For most magical foes that answer is typically no, and has been for most of these TOC's so really examining the mechanics that define that train of thought isn't really all that different.
I will go against the tide and vote for Lord Hazanko. When you take the most powerful Tau master and the most powerful Demon lord and put them in an arena, they will blow each other up and the match could go either way.
And in this case I will vote the other way.
Vote: Lord Hazanko who, after defeating Venger, collapses from the battle.
My point to my argument was that we don't know if Tau has saves. We don't know if how many hitpoints he has because he is NOT a D&D character. You are using the D&D rules against the D&D character because we know nothing about how Tau fits into the D&D world. That being said, we shouldn't be using those rules to argue a case for Hazanko. Lets look at what we DO know:
- We do know that Venger has more offensive and defensive capabilities than Hazanko.
- We do know that while Hazanko has abilities that are deadly and not to be dismissed, Venger has more options at his disposal.
- We do know that Venger can block Hazanko's attacks with magical spells and that he can fire back at Hazanko with a myriad of death-causing spells (Rokk listed a good bunch).
Lets determine our votes on those issues, not the ones we have no idea on.
Vengar may (and not does, may) have more offensive and defensive options, it doesn't mean he has better offensive or defensive options. Many of of Vengar's options are redundant or only useful against things that Hazanko won't be useing, Vengar has few abilities that will fully defend againt Hazanko as that is not the nature his magical abilities. Hazanko also has death causeing effects they are just more physically oriented (like twisiting Vengar's head off or crushing his windpipe) and there is essentially nothing that Vengar can do to stop that. So what your saying is that because Hazanko's magic is different than Vengar's then he has no defense at all against Vengar? Are you telling me you'd make the same claim for Genie or Mozenrath? We don't actually know that any of the stuff that you cited about Vengar is true, he could easily just have memorized a bunch of fireballs and magic missles.
Venger - 6 votes
Lord Hazanko - 2 votes
Originally posted by hail_eris
Well, that's how it works for human wizards with 40 hit points. I figured that Venger wouldn't have anything as self-preservation oriented as Teleport without Error keyed into it. Still, I could have sworn that there was a spell that allowed you to fast cast flashy Invo./Evo. stuff. Not that it really matters in this context anyway.
The various D&D comics and cartoons have played *really* fast and loose with things like casting times and spell components. And I don't remember Venger ever being slowed up for the thirty seconds (or whatever it takes) to cast Fireball. I'm still holding off on voting, but I think that this will be decided less by the one who can unload firstest with the mostest. I see it being much more of an endurance contest - whichever one has the most staying power will get my support...
If youre looking for who has the greater endurance and more staying power, Venger is an immortal superhuman Demon/Devil Lord, and Lord Hazanko seems to be a superhumanly powered....well....human. All biase aside, Id say Venger beats him in endurance simply due to who he is, over who LH is, demon over human.
Originally posted by DTM
If youre looking for who has the greater endurance and more staying power, Venger is an immortal superhuman Demon/Devil Lord, and Lord Hazanko seems to be a superhumanly powered....well....human. All biase aside, Id say Venger beats him in endurance simply due to who he is, over who LH is, demon over human.
I'll reiterate that Hazanko has forced open a miniature black hole and climbed back out without any physical indication of injury.
Originally posted by Rando
Vengar may (and not does, may) have more offensive and defensive options, it doesn't mean he has better offensive or defensive options. so does he or doesn't he? ;) Many of of Vengar's options are redundant or only useful against things that Hazanko won't be useing, Vengar has few abilities that will fully defend againt Hazanko as that is not the nature his magical abilities. Hazanko also has death causeing effects they are just more physically oriented (like twisiting Vengar's head off or crushing his windpipe) and there is essentially nothing that Vengar can do to stop that. So what your saying is that because Hazanko's magic is different than Vengar's then he has no defense at all against Vengar? Are you telling me you'd make the same claim for Genie or Mozenrath? We don't actually know that any of the stuff that you cited about Vengar is true, he could easily just have memorized a bunch of fireballs and magic missles.
Based on the cartoon, I say that he did not memorize just a bunch of fireballs and magic missiles.
I never said that Hazanko has no defense against Venger. In my post, I implied that Venger's offensive capabilities will smash through Hazanko's defense. I don't think Hazanko is going to be stable enough to do his Tau thang after Venger gets through with him. Venger will unleash all unholy heck on Hazanko and there is very little for Hazanko to stop him. How far is Hazanko's range? How many spells does Venger have to take out city blocks and whatnot? Who is the human versus the demigod/demon? I say if Hazanko does get a grip on him with his TK, that will only anger Venger more and Venger will unleash more of that unholy heck on him. He is gonna have to do more to take out Venger than try to crush his windpipes. We are talking full on defenses and offenses. Venger is the one of the powerful wizards out there...second to maybe Tiamat (who I hope he pulls in round 4 so we don't have va Tiamat/Venger final..if Tiamat makes it to round 4).
You realize that among other things you just claimed that if Vengar has his throat collapsed the it will just make him more dangerous? The real question is, do full on defenses and offenses beat shielding beyond shielding?
I don't think that Hazanko can collapse Venger's throat that easily...I should have clarified and said such an attempt would anger Venger even further. He is a demigod/demon...not that easy to crush. And what shielding beyond shilding are you talking about in you question?
Why would crushing Vengers throat do anything to his spellcasting? He never spoke incantations in the show at all.
For the same reason that any other thing that would kill you would stop your spellcasting:because you are dead or close to it.
I'm unsure. Venger has more raw power, but Rando has some good points about the versatility and TK of Hazanko being hard to counter. Plus, Tao (Tao, not Tau! Tao is Eastern Magic, Tau is a greek letter or an alien race from Warhammer 40k!) is quite good at countering magic sent against it, and Hazanko's physical survivability is impressive. I have no idea how he did the black hole thing, but it's quite impressive.
I'm unsure. Venger has more raw power, but Rando has some good points about the versatility and TK of Hazanko being hard to counter. Plus, Tao (Tao, not Tau! Tao is Eastern Magic, Tau is a greek letter or an alien race from Warhammer 40k!) is quite good at countering magic sent against it, and Hazanko's physical survivability is impressive. I have no idea how he did the black hole thing, but it's quite impressive.
Originally posted by Rando
For the same reason that any other thing that would kill you would stop your spellcasting:because you are dead or close to it.
Possibly, but we dont even know as an Arch Devil/Demon Lord if Venger even breathes as we know it or not.
Even if he doesn't (and you would think that that would be a listed demon ability) he would still suffer incredible pain from the physical damage such an attack would inflict. I think Vengar's durability and offensive hitting power are being greatly over estimated. The vast majority of spells in D&D can't knock over a reinforced stone wall in D&D (at least not 1 spell a few lightning bolts would do it) fireballs don't even have concussive force, they just burn, they wouldn't even affect someone with a forcefield unless the forcefield is flamable, most higher level damage spells are just don't inflict much more damage, meteor swarm is the only real exception. In D&D even the greatest demons can be killed in a handful of combat rounds by a handful of strong, skilled fighters wielding magic weapons (and not "cut through anything" magic weapons either) that means they are vulnerable to lightweights. Vengar is not some unstoppable tank with massive destructive power.
Vengers most common offensive attack on the show were "eldritch bolts/magical beams" from his hands and eyes. In the show, these beams were shown to have tremendous destructive power.
There is a reason ever single being of evil, save Tiamat, in the entire realm of D&D, is either afraid of and/or takes orders from, Venger. He IS that powerful.
You realize DTM that the master of all things D&D and Vengar's father picked a handful of lightweights with 1 magic item a piece to oppose him, and he seemed pretty confident in their ability to do so.
Those handful of LW kids and their 1 a piece Weapons From God could probably do equally well to every SHW here. Keep in mind they never defeat Venger, just escape from him, topple a caslte onto him, or stop his evil schemes. They do well against him, they even combined are not his superior (and Im sure DM had his hand in some of their victories as well)
Originally posted by DTM
Those handful of LW kids and their 1 a piece Weapons From God could probably do equally well to every SHW here. Keep in mind they never defeat Venger, just escape from him, topple a caslte onto him, or stop his evil schemes. They do well against him, they even combined are not his superior (and Im sure DM had his hand in some of their victories as well)
I very much doubt that. Regardless their presence serves to prove my point. Hank the Ranger was in the LW division he had 1 of the 3 magic weapons the team possessed (his bow, the barbarian's club, and the acrobat's staff), and it probably didn't hit as hard as the barbarian's club. As DM expected them to use these weapons against Vengar obviously one of their most important ones would be able to damage him significantly. Acording to your above post you claim that these people would do pretty well against any SHW, by extension that measn you must believe that Hank's bow can significantly damage Omega Supreme. Obviously no LW should have stopping power of that magintude (especially that has the extra options that the bow had) so either Hank shouldn't be in the LW division (and no one objected to his presence, and he is in no way obscure) or you have significantly overestimated Vengar's durability.
You forgot about the cloak (while not a weapon, pretty powerful) the magic hat (not a weapon directly) and the sword (a weapon). Wait, did the annoying guy have a sword or a shield?
Anyways, those LW kids had "god" on their side and they never defeated Venger in any hand-to-hand capacity. In fact, Venger would have crushed them. OS would crush them. They thought their way out of conflicts most of the time (or got lucky with help from the DM).
That was such a good show....they need to have it come out on DVD.
Venger is a power hungry, angry, demon-ish, warlord, wizard, son of "god"/DM. You are underestimating his abilities.
I didn't forget them the argument is about relative durability, the cloak and hat didn't have anything to do with direct damage, they were not weapons, they were items that served support roles. The annoying guy (the cavalier) had a shield. God also never just showed up and big footed Vengar either, his involvment was limited to advice and his items. "God" thought that was good enough to be a relevant threat to Vengar, and being all knowing I figure he would be right, meaning Vengar wouldn't have crushed them, and in fact didn't crush them.
Uh, Hanks bow affected Tiamat herself, a being that is nearly immune to magic attacks. You are sorely underestimating how POWERFUL those 6 weapons were, and again, I dont remember a time (and if one time than certainly NOT close to routinely) even all 6 of DMs Pupils managed to actuall defeat Venger.
No I'm noteing the fact that Hank is a LW, if Tiamat and Vengar are so tough that they can resist attacks on the scale that Hazanko can produce so casually then how do you justify Hank as a LW? More importantly if his bow is so outrageously damageing then why did no one object to his presence in the LW's, surely the fact that his weapon is so powerful that it can seriously damage two entities that you think have some of the best durability in the tournament would have aroused at least one complaint? Whether you remeber a time they got close to beating Vengar is moot, the DM is all knowing, the DM thinks that with only the weapons he gave them and his advice they can beat Vengar, since the DM is all knowing his estimation of their abilities relative to Vengar's must be accurate the only possible comclusion based upon these facts is that they can beat Vengar.
Hanks bow is a SHW weapon, the fact that Hank is a relatively inexperienced 17 year old high school kid (SUB LW Level) bumps him and his bow back down to a High End LW (where he ended up)
The DM didnt bring those kids there to defeat Venger, not sure why he brought them there really, maybe he was bored. But at no time did DM mention, your goal here is to take Venger down, go to it. If DM wanted Venger brought down, he could have done so himself.
Again, saying Venger is weak because he battles against 6 LW kids with magic weapons, I wonder what they says about Lord Marshall, who was KILLED by a single LW with an ordinary knife.
Venger was the Lord Of Evil beings in D&D (A world FULL of all different kinds of evil beings) so to me that says POWER.
I have to vote for Hazanko here....it seems to me he has the offense needed here to take this fight.
Originally posted by DTM
Hanks bow is a SHW weapon, the fact that Hank is a relatively inexperienced 17 year old high school kid (SUB LW Level) bumps him and his bow back down to a High End LW (where he ended up)
The DM didnt bring those kids there to defeat Venger, not sure why he brought them there really, maybe he was bored. But at no time did DM mention, your goal here is to take Venger down, go to it. If DM wanted Venger brought down, he could have done so himself.
Again, saying Venger is weak because he battles against 6 LW kids with magic weapons, I wonder what they says about Lord Marshall, who was KILLED by a single LW with an ordinary knife.
Venger was the Lord Of Evil beings in D&D (A world FULL of all different kinds of evil beings) so to me that says POWER.
Relatively inexperienced? Every one of his matches you were going on and on about how he was not at all inexperienced and was an amazeing marksman and incredible leader. What DM's motivations were are again irrelevant, he knew the team was going to be in constant conflict with Vengar, and he obviously didn't want them to get killed, he prepared them accordingly.
Compared to all of the other LWs hes vastly inexperienced. Sure by the end of the season he was very experienced with his bow, but thats just one aspect to the MANY that go into a TOC such as this. Yes, DM gave them Vastly powerful weapons to help in their conflicts with Venger, thats not a dig on how weak Venger is, but a prop to how powerful the 6 DM Pupil weapons are.
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