Weekly Poll: Should the default point total of 300 be changed?

[webhead817]

Hope everyone enjoyed the DC Legacy Marquee event this past weekend. As most of you who have played a sealed Legacy event might have noticed, Legacy has the highest average point cost per fig so far amongst all sets.

This fact has prompted some to call for a higher point total to be used in the game. Here's your chance to voice your opinion...

[church of xorn]

i could go 400

[Darth Sabre]

We've pretty much started using 400 pts, as our base total, between Unleasehd and Ultimates.

It just makes more sense, since most of the figures that players want to use, range from 150-260 pts.

[Goblin_Avenger]

This is tough because I normally play 300 but kinda like 400, but I'm gonna go stick with 300, because I don't want super priced uniques running the game. 400 lets all those Thor and Supes teams get away with...anything...or whatever.

Conclusion- Me no like supes/thor, make point total 300 to penalize people who play them.

[Ringer]

i like that you can build a fairly well ballanced team at 400 pts, with a couple higher point figures and enough support pieces to be viable.

[tyroclix]

Depends -

The usual equation is 100 points per Booster.

Now I wouldn't have too much of a problem building a 400 point force from 3 Boosters. But changing the total to 400 with the idea of now buying 4 boosters is not something I'd like to see.

Ideally, maybe a 350 point, 3 booster tourney would be something I'd like to see...

[Ultimate2099]

300 points. Too much cheese takes over at 400+ games. It's fun every now and then but the worst element of Heroclix players would take over the tourney scene if 400 became the norm.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by tyroclix
Depends -

The usual equation is 100 points per Booster.

Now I wouldn't have too much of a problem building a 400 point force from 3 Boosters. But changing the total to 400 with the idea of now buying 4 boosters is not something I'd like to see.

Ideally, maybe a 350 point, 3 booster tourney would be something I'd like to see...

If Legacy sets a standard in what we can expect to see from future sets...then running a 3 booster/400 pts sealed is not out of the question.

[Manchine]

I definately like the 300 point game. I dont think it should go up. If someone wants to play the big pointers they can but it doesnt mean they should have a better chance at winning. Which they would have at a 400 point total.

[S.Grimson]

400 pts works for me. 300pt cheese will be replaced with 400 pt cheese, so what's the difference? We get more choices on figures, and that is a good thing.

[tyroclix]

If Legacy sets a standard in what we can expect to see from future sets...then running a 3 booster/400 pts sealed is not out of the question.

It would come down to how unlikely it would be for a player to not get close to 400 points.

If you were all but guaranteed to get 375 - 450 points worth of figs in 3 boosters it would be feasible.

I'd just hate to be the guy whose team total came to 308 in a 400 point game...

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Manchine
I definately like the 300 point game. I dont think it should go up. If someone wants to play the big pointers they can but it doesnt mean they should have a better chance at winning. Which they would have at a 400 point total.

I don't think increasing a point total, necessarily increases ones ability to win. It does increase the playability of more figures, though, and the likely hood that more of those figures will see play.

What's the point in creating the figures if the standard tournament doesn't allow for them?

[Manchine]

Originally posted by Darth Sabre
I don't think increasing a point total, necessarily increases ones ability to win. It does increase the playability of more figures, though, and the likely hood that more of those figures will see play.

What's the point in creating the figures if the standard tournament doesn't allow for them?

There is not one figure you can not play in a sealed booster play. Every figure is playable.

[I_Blame_You]

I get plenty of big total games among friends. I think 300 pts. requires a little more strategy, so I'm voting to stick with 300.

[wyld]

300 is a good default because it allows for every figure, as Manchine points out, to be used; it allows for simple math to apply - one action per 100 points, include six 50 point figures for ideal use of actions (barring Willpower, free moves, etc); it prevents games from running too long... there's nothing wrong with the 300 mark.

However, it's a default. You default to the 300 point mark when no other mark is being used. In a situation like the one encountered with Legacy, judges could use their discretion to increase the point total, to account for the high point figures so prevalent there.

My usual venue hasn't played a 300 point game in ages. I played a pickup game there Friday and suggested a 300 point match, and got shocked dismay as a response. It's all in your personal preferences, I guess.

--wyld

[thespiderfly]

For sealed, three booster with 300 points is the way to go. If someone pulls a 200+ point brusier, then it's easier to take them on if they don't have an extra 100 points of support.

[reklawyad]

I'm tired of the Ole 300 point limit. EXCUSE me but 265 point Supes on a 300 point team? It's possible, but you'll probably get your arse handed to you when rookie black pather outwits your Defense and then clint barton perplexed hits you for 6 straight out the bat...

300 points needs to be upped to 400, just for perfect example, every other figure in Legacy has almost 100+ points in it, that is just wrong to force someone to only run a 2 or 3 person team. How would you like to be the person that get's his KC Flash stomped on by a little ole 27 point BP who outwits the Hypersonic Speed, and make his total abilty worthless?

I say LET THE BIG GUYS COME OUT! I'm tired of letting the big sought after uniques i've got just sit and collect dust while all the same #### con artists and paramedics I've got, which I might add are EASY to pull, get more action.

That's just my 2 cents.

Rek

[BudPalmer]

I'm better at 400 points than I am 300 so I'd be all over that.

[Prof. Aragorn]

I've no problem with whatever they do-so long as it's 1 action for every 100 point increment.

However, there should be some balance. If there is going to be a lot more 100+ people in future sets, then the point value of teams should increase gradually. However, if Legacy is the only set with 5 or so figures in the 200+ range from now on, 300-400 should be fine.

The only reason we would need to increase point totals if there were a lot more playable figures, and there are about what, 2000 figures total now?

Eh, I'd like more 400 point games, but I probably wouldn't want them to be Wizkids regulations until Ultimates is retired.

[webhead817]

I'd love to see a 450 point/3 action world. This would bump up the equilibrium point from 50 up to 75 points, more in line with the characters I'd like to see play.

[Funky Jett]

Gulp... After arguing on the Judges Forum against this rather strenuously, I am going to have to... gulp... agree with webbie. If the figures continue to have such a high point value, something needs to be changed. I was able to play in one marquee, and two of the players had pulls over 1010 points from their three boosters. Mine was 853 points, and that is including the one card that cost points (Armor Piercing). It sounds a bit confusing, but 450/3 boosters/3 actions allows higher point figures to be fielded without really hurting your teams too much. Maybe those big point figures with Leadership will actually make it out of your dusty box.
Originally posted by webhead817
I'd love to see a 450 point/3 action world. This would bump up the equilibrium point from 50 up to 75 points, more in line with the characters I'd like to see play.
As I am sure it's been pointed out, the average points has continually gone up. Legacy was ~86 points. Making the "equilibrium" point 75 is definitely more in line with how it should be.

[Sartek1985]

I myself would love to see the point totals go up. In 300 you can't fully play any piece thats over 200 points. Even Magog needs more than 91 points to support him.

In the orders department, the idea of 450/3 came up. I'm not exactly sure how that would effect the game as a whole. Swarm and weenie teams would be hindered by this as their mobility would die. It would certainly allow for more larger point pieces to be played though, as 5 60-100 pieces easily work in 450/3.

As a note, Mechwarrior also adopted the 450/3 rule after our first major rules adjustment. It allowed all the really big mechs to come out and have more than terrain as their only protection. 450 seemed to work for mech, maybe, with some playtesting of course, it could work here.

[RangedCombatEx]

While I think the game runs at it's best at 400 points, I think 300 points is still the way to go as it still provides a challenge to even the best players to try to squeeze what they can into the 300 mark. And NO! I don't want any less/extra actions! 1 action/100 points is still one of the best mechanics about the game. The only time it comes into question is when extremely large totals are being played (in excess of 600 points IMO)

[nivco43]

I personally would like to see a change to 400 points. but only when cheap support like cons/BP/paras(marvel the root of all evil jk.) get rotated out.. considering the cost of support now in legacy.

[(anyguy)]

why are people scared to have 450/4? That sounds good to me. 300 is too low IMO and is quite frankly very vanilla. Try running a good justice league team in 300...haha. As for swarm armies...so what, they're more fun and original than your typical thor or amazo hooker bomb teams. 'nuff said.

[de4dp00l]

Chalk me up for a new standard. 400 point games are the standard at my venue. Personally, I like that point total because it allows you to play the really expensive pieces with a decent amount of support, or allows you to play a couple of mid-range pieces. It also facilitates theme play. Masters of Evil in a 300 point game stinks, but in a 400 point game... well, they still stink, but you can have more of them.

[Teron_Gorfiend]

Originally posted by Goblin_Avenger
This is tough because I normally play 300 but kinda like 400, but I'm gonna go stick with 300, because I don't want super priced uniques running the game. 400 lets all those Thor and Supes teams get away with...anything...or whatever.

Conclusion- Me no like supes/thor, make point total 300 to penalize people who play them.

Our place runs 400 and you hardly see thor or supes. You know why? Because they get stomped. Supes is still too expensive and Thor's main advantage is being cheap enough to outclass most big guns in 300pt teams.

Back in the IC days it was always boring when the games were 200pts and you wanted to use or thanos, hulks, or Nightmares.

[Thanos thrall]

Put me down for 400. It gives you the chance to play 200+ point figures and be able to support them properly.

[DS-00-0, FSD]

I wish there were a fifth option:

E) Default point total?! What's that??


If anyone truely feels the point total needs to be adjusted, then they really need to look at adjusting thier "Default Judge". ;)

As it is now, I can say I like the 300 point/3 booster method for sealed events, though the point creep in HC almost makes me want to agree that a 450 point/3 action build (like MechWarrior) might work for HC.

[EmperorNorton]

Good point, DS.

The venue I go to has a majority of 300 point games, but it is changed every once in a while. They also have scenario rules to spice up the same old same old.

One thing, though:
I've heard quite a lot of complaints in the German community lately that the big point characters like KC Supes and Green Lantern are way to powerful, especially when packed with feats. Although I don't agree with that I fear this would increase if 400 point games were made the rule.

[Kristoff]

400 points would be pushing it, I think.

But I've been thinking about it and I think 400 pts would actually benefit weenie teams enough to make them much more competative. weenie teams rely on mass synergy. Realistically the most useful weenies hover around the 20 pt range. Vet Hand Ninjas with BCF and some Swat Specialists and doombots can really raise hell against a team with just 4 or 5 figures. Give that team an extra action ,which a team with less figures can't take advantage of, and you gain a huge advantage in momentum. Good players can build an effective team around Superman and Sinestro. GREAT players can defeat those teams with Sheild Snipers and AIM Agents.

[shazam256]

It should be a default of 400 points. Tournament games should always be 400 or 500 point games, which is what I always play at home. 400 or 500 points is actually perfect I think. 300 or less to too little and more than 500 is too much.:)

[JayThor]

Let me say that I voted for the continuation of 300 points, but I only like that for the sealed events. To expect folks to build 400-500 might be asking too much.

That said, we only use 300 for sealed events. The rest of the time it is 500-600 points. It is what my players want, and it gives many figure options to play.

[AncientOfDays]

one of the venues I play at has set 500 points as the consistent standard for their games each week, these games rock! I want to play my big figures!!!!! WHy did I spoend the time to get and Ares and KC GL if I can only play one of them??? THe judge also has set a standard no dupes rule, so it's one connie and one deo at the most then if you want more cheap perplex you see HArley, riddler and Mystique. you see more people with theme teams or teams that actually are not just carbon copise of each other. It gets boring watching people play Ult Thor + R BLack Panther + R MAndroid + E DEO Agent + R COn Artist + R Destiny + E PAramedic........ It's old and It's boring and I have seen it win too many times!

[Hellboy_Hodge]

Are the tourny games supposed to be at 300? Because my stupid judge has it at 400.:noid:

[Captain_Comet]

We have a great deal of flexibility as judges with MOST events, but the default is 300 points.

[drgnoftyr]

make it 400 pts and keep the avtion ratio 1 per 100 ...;) ;)

[Kilowog4]

I could go 400 or 500.... just so that figures like galactus and phoenix coudnt be played b/c of their awesome power. and I dont know about everyone else's venues but mine rarely has a standard 300 pt tourney, except on sealed and marquee and draft, or cheese/ low point team tourneys

[bladesword]

lets see two default build totals 300 for booster turneys and 400-500 for everything else

[Good Advice]

i vote for 400, more flexability

[Ro-gan]

Originally posted by Goblin_Avenger
This is tough because I normally play 300 but kinda like 400, but I'm gonna go stick with 300, because I don't want super priced uniques running the game. 400 lets all those Thor and Supes teams get away with...anything...or whatever.

Conclusion- Me no like supes/thor, make point total 300 to penalize people who play them.

This is pretty much what I was going to say, but Goblin_Avenger beat me to it.

[Terman8er]

I like the 450/3. It seems that Leadership is one of the most expensive powers in the game. This format makes Ledership more worth while.

Just change it so it reads like Command from MW. That way if you have 3 clix w/Leadership and roll three-fives you get 3 extra actions.

[Spyder-Man]

Originally posted by Goblin_Avenger
This is tough because I normally play 300 but kinda like 400, but I'm gonna go stick with 300, because I don't want super priced uniques running the game. 400 lets all those Thor and Supes teams get away with...anything...or whatever.

Conclusion- Me no like supes/thor, make point total 300 to penalize people who play them.

I can understand where you're coming from, but my question is what is the point of having pieces like Magog, or Ultimates Thor if you can only use them once in a blue moon? The only time I have to play anymore is at tournaments and because of the usual 300 build total I've found that I rarely get to play any of my favorite figures.

I think where a lot of the concern comes in is the way these high prices uniques are supported when they are played. Someone will throw in double barrier or play some other "cheezy" strategy and then everyone gets upset and doesn't want anyone to play that piece anymore. What about those of us who don't play "cheezy" but still want to play a high point bruiser more than once every few months?

[Kite-Man]

I played a 2000 point tourney the other day and it was a blast to see massive heavy hitters all over the board---along with Blue Beetle praying his opponent would forget he's using Armour Piercing as soon as he clears....

[Batman1983]

Just remember that a set like FanForces will only give us 6-9 pieces to use come the Marquee. There is a good chance that though you could field 400 points w/ 6 or 9 pieces you may not want to field everything you pull. I bring up the marquee because we're talking Wizkids edicts here. House rule 400-600 pointers all you want (I like 400 myself), but we don't want WK just making 70+ point pieces because they make a stander 400 more or the dreaded 450/3... thats silly & only hurts swarm/theme teams & helps high cost unique teams. i.e. Ares can clean up the X-men if the 175 points hes not using is only a 2 action disadvantage instead of a 3-4. Then the X-men (who could fit up to 9 exp & Vets in 450) only get 3 moves for 9 pieces. it hurts most teams not a few as most teams in 300 have 6 pieces w/ leadership &/or willpower as bonuses, but not required. In 400 Ares is taking up (roughly)70% of the team & (up to)33% of the actions where as Jay Garick is about 25% team & is 25% actions. Mathmatically the current set up helps for Marquees & thats really all that Wizkids has final say over all the time. Week to week tournies are up to your judge (at least from my experience).

[richpizor]

This is more of an issue with retirement - the cheap figures are disappearing!

[Yggmannaz]

I'm all for 150 pts/action and bumping the total up to 400 points. It would definately change up the scene, making higher point figs more viable, as well as Free Movement and Leadership more worth it as well.

I do like to see some cheap figures, but not figures that have the "required" powers on them too cheap, as those are the ones that get used. Plus with the point totals moved up and actions reduced, there is only so much a person can do to move their support figures into play and still get attacks off.

The Legacy Marquee is a good indication of how upping point totals would be good. When you are running 2-3 character teams, and a pog or two as filler because that's all you can afford, that's bad. With the new sets, characters can be made to be beyond 1 dimensional, having multiple powers and uses, which makes them much better overall.

[JayThor]

We are going to try it this week ay my venue: 450 points and 3 actions. I'll let you know the results.

[thanosrules]

I think 300-points for tourneys is a nice round number. You could always talk to your venue's judge to mix it up some. Like 200 points one week. Something over a 500 the next. Although anything over 500 kinda needs a limit on the actions, those game can last forever.

[Norb]

At Legacy Marquee all players had a rough time making up a 300pt team that was more than 3 figures. Maybe these were just realy good packs?

[Kristoff]

Originally posted by Spyder-Man
I can understand where you're coming from, but my question is what is the point of having pieces like Magog, or Ultimates Thor if you can only use them once in a blue moon?

The point to these extraordinarily powerful figures is just that. When you choose to play these figures you are severely limiting your options. That's the disadvantage of these guys.

Now when you push things to 500+ points a smart weenie player will field between 10 and 12 units (maybe some extras to provide a buffer for attrition). Thus this player will always use all available actions early in the game. That is their advantage. BUT these units can rarely do more than 3 clicks in a single hit and often have to do so from range and clump together and this makes them vulnerable to EE or PW.

Someone playing heavy hitting teams will field 2 or three big guns and 2 or three support units to change their diapers. These units can usually wipe out any single weenie unit in a single hit. Some can make several units worthless all at once (Kang, Ultron). Also most of these guys are irritatingly hard to damage, much less make ineffective or kill outright. Add a single medic and things can get depressing quick. BUT drop one of these guys and the team quickly loses momentum. Also, more than likely, they will find that many turns they can do nothing at all without pushing someone.

Now it seems to me that people are trying to justify somehow getting around the disadvantage to playing high point Value units. "I never get to play them at home" or "That's not fair!" are popular arguments. Offering a higher point total for the same amount of actions is a ridiculous idea though. You will destroy the fragile balance between smaller more concentrated armies and larger more diffused armies.

That's all well and good if you and your buddies want to duke it out with your big guns at home but I don't think there is any place in tournament play for this nonsense. Balance is critical for competative play.

People talk about how some players always play the same team every tournament (Ult Thor, etc) but the only reason this happens is that this is the most effective team for someone who has absolutuely no strategic skill whatsoever. Concentrate everything on one guy and then you have to only worry about that one piece instead of trying to coordinate a dozen pieces effectively. It's like playing Ryu in Street Fighter. It's an easy to use strategy that is effective so everyone who can't be creative uses it. So, stop moaning about it and experiment a little. maybe you'll learn something.

[George Smiley]

I selfishly would like to play more of my high pointed figures. My impression is that a majority would like to see 400 point games. It seems to me that WIZ KIDS did not make a sound decision regarding their upcoming packaging changes. If they had done it correctly they could have made a larger gross profit by changing the default to 400 and putting the same number of pieces (which have creeped up in point value) per box. Almost everyone would have been happier. Booster and individual prices are getting insane for what amounts to a few pieces of plastic.

I don't know how I feel about changing to the one action per 150 points option. I would like to try it for a while first. It sounds good but that seems like it would lead to a 450 point starting total. Maybe that's the kind of change that the game needs.

Teams built around a core of one high pointed figure (like Ult. I.M., Ult. Thor, KC GL, KC Flash, KC Supes, or Ares) are just as challenging and annoying as swarm teams. My observation is that a considerable amount of recent play in southeast Georgia tends to be with a 400 point total anyway. People want to play their uniques and high pointed pieces with more than one or two cheap PCers/Supporters.

I'll tell you what I think people want. PLAYERS WANT TO FIELD REAL THEME TEAMS THAT ARE COMPETITIVE with teams that are constructed just to win. There should be some mechanism in the game to reward players who field a team in which every member belongs to the same team with extra feats or extra moves or something substantial. I hear alot of complaints about wildcard abuse and figures benefitting from team abilities that they should not receive.

[Slade Wilson]

I agreed with George Smiley :grin:

[JayThor]

Originally posted by JayThor
We are going to try it this week ay my venue: 450 points and 3 actions. I'll let you know the results. It went well. Leadership was actually important, and folks seemed to enjoy it. We tried it several more times in the past weeks, all going well.

[Captain_Comet]

Originally posted by JayThor
It went well. Leadership was actually important, and folks seemed to enjoy it. We tried it several more times in the past weeks, all going well.

I never thought of that, I'm going to start giving it a try.

[tidge]

I actually dislike large (500+) point-value games; I find that they typically much slower than lower point values, and they are much easier to build wild-card silliness into the teams.

Variations on large point games that I like:

All figures must be between 50 and 150 points, or
All figures must have the same Team Ability.

IMO, if a large point value game is supposed to be so that players can use "high-priced uniques", then lets keep the medics, con artists and pogs off the battlefield.

[phicks]

May I suggest that at sealed booster events, after opening their boosters, each player adds up the total number of points their characters are worth. Whichever person has the lowest total, THAT number becomes the build total everybody has to use. So, the one guy who pulled a bunch of junkie low point rookies at least gets to use all of them. And with the point cost of figures seemingly ever increasing, this would let people use more of the figures they pull. The point total would no longer be an even number like 300, it might be 379 instead. That's fine - the rules say you get one action for every 100 points, so you would still get 3 moves per round for that total. Versus say 4 moves for a point total of 401 points.

What say you?

[venarnage]

Well, when IC first came out, there werent THAT many big figs. Atleast it didnt seem like there were. Now we are getting figs that are 200+ point cost, not counting the cards you put on them. I think its definately time for an update.

[George Smiley]

I played again Saturday for two and a half hours. I played a 300 pt. unrestricted and a 600 pt. theme team game. With no prompting on my part, each of the seven other players there expressed their irritation at not being able to play more of their high powered figures and the lack of a BFC card (or some other mechanism) to provide some type of substantial reward for theme teams.

By the way the 300 pt. team that won 3 out of 3 Saturday was a team with E Marvel Girl, E Selene, E Deathstroke, E Ravager, V Havok and U Carter Hall. I wouldn't call it a swarm team but it had the same effect because the remaining teams all had at least one figure of around 150 points. I had a V GL, V GA, E Flash team that beat a Batman Allies team and went 1 and 1.

I realize my team has a lot of strategic weaknesses (move deficiency, etc.) but the swarm team just trounced every one else. It is just wishful thinking but it seems like these three characters should have been able to at least make the game close. The game is set up in such a way that it seems to penalizes high pt., low range theme team figures.

[Terman8er]

Thats why you should lower the point:action ratio. 450 points with 3 actions tends to handicap the swarm teams.

[Iceman425]

Not until Legacy did I have a little bit of a problem with 300pt. games. And they are still my favorite build total. Unfortunately, with the pieces becoming pricier and pricier, 300pt Booster Sealeds are a thing of the past.

[Halls Fate]

300 is fine with me i like low cost characters like bullseye, havok and mr freeze

[George Smiley]

Yes, please change the default total to 450 points and the number of actions to three.

[JayThor]

Well, considering that we will be getting only 3 figures in a booster, even with 3 boosters it will be nearly impossible to come up with 450 points in a marquee/sealed booster tournament. I do like 450+ for constructed, though.

[George Smiley]

I believe there are several ways to solve that problem. For example you could use extra boxes of boosters. There are other drafting methods as well such as the one Phicks suggested below.

[Terman8er]

I don't know...giants tend to cost in the 100 point range. And with no commonns any more...I think 450 is the way to go.

[melinda17]

400 sounds good to me

[JayThor]

I don't know...giants tend to cost in the 100 point range. And with no commonns any more...I think 450 is the way to go.
But Lockjaw, Mirage, Hawkeye, Black Knight and Ghost Rider don't reach 100 on all their versions, and you will pull as many of those (probably more) than the giants.

[Terman8er]

Lockjaw: 38
Mirage: 90
Hawkeye: 84
Black Knight: 77
Ghost Rider: 102
Vet/Un Average: 93.6

So, just by going by the Vets and Uniques FF averages almost a hundred points per figure. I took 10 points off each to estimate Exp costs and another 10 points per figure for the Rookies and the averages went to:

Exp Avg: 83.6
Rook Avg: 73.6

So, if you but 3 boosters and get all rookies you will end up with (estimated) 662.4 points worth of figures.

So...whats wrong with 450/3 again?

[Terman8er]

Sorry, no edit function...the above prices are for the Vets of each (just to show that one does go over a hundred and a few a up there) and the first average given is the Vet/Unique average.

[JayThor]

Well, if your equation is correct (and I won't waste time confirming/disputing it) that is great. I tend to have bad luck at pulling figures during the marquees, and will probably get three versions of Lockjaw. I once had a marquee where E Typhoid Mary was my best figure.

[FuzzyElf39]

I personaly love the 300pts. It allows me to make a stong, technical team. No big shots like the KC Superman or GL (great anti weapon agiants GL..........poison).But hey thats just my opinion stick with the original and stop changeing stuff up on us the old farts. We the old farts don't like that, j/k I am only 15...... but I have been with the game for a long time.

[Gacy's Clown]

Somehow I've missed this thread, but I'm definitely in agreement that it should be changed to 450/3 actions. Yeah, it gives a little more breathing room for the big guns, but it gives me even MORE room to field the little guys.;)

[Ziggy]

I voted for keeping the total at 300, but I would be open to 400 as well. If 400 points became the standard, it would be very interesting to see all of the new teams!

[George Smiley]

Three hundred points just isn't enough for effective theme teams. I'm assuming that effective theme teams are desired by a large portion of Heroclix players because I see numerous posts (besides mine) asking for a mechanism that substantially aids theme teams. I also have seen numerous posts asking for the default total points number to be increased to 400 or 450 points. That is obviously due to the fact that people strongly want to play their figures that are expense because they are powerful and popular. Occasionally you will see posts asking for a higher points to actions ratio which is the logical extension of increasing the default point total.

I've received 16 emails or personal messages from people discussing this idea. Three were in favor of keeping the default total at 300. One guy was fanatically against high costed pieces and games over 300 pts. He actually posted some good reasons for his views. The rest of the posters were for increasing the total to 400 or 450. No one wanted a total for over 450. I believe it would get a lot of views. Several explained why the 300 pt. total won't work due to power creep. Two provided reasonable explanations with examples explaining why 450 pt default, 150 pts. per action, 1 hr. games were the future.

Obviously I'm not an experienced player compared to the people on the HCRealms or WizKids Heroclix boards but you have to admit that there are a lot of logical reasons to consider some of the changes suggested above. The idea about a substantial boost to theme teams almost always creates a good discussion. Someone who is well regarded should write an article suggesting several different ways to promote theme team use. It would probably get a lot of "views".

[Batman1983]

If we go to 450/3 (600/4 etc) then Leadership should be "Rule of three" instead of 'rule of one'... I mean you could run KC Superman w/ 160-185 (depending on Fortitude) points of tie-up, or an army of Police. in higher point games teams like the JLA w/ lots of leadership would (potentially per turn) have the same advantage attacking as moving. I don't think a straight 300/3 now = 450/3 will be an easy transition. Other factors have to play out.

Of course I don't make it to tourneys anymore due to schedule, but I can say we were playing mostly 400/4 unless it was scenario night (which would range from 300/3 to 599/6... to avoid Galactus)

[JayThor]

If we go to 450/3 (600/4 etc) then Leadership should be "Rule of three" instead of 'rule of one'... I mean you could run KC Superman w/ 160-185 (depending on Fortitude) points of tie-up, or an army of Police. in higher point games teams like the JLA w/ lots of leadership would (potentially per turn) have the same advantage attacking as moving. I don't think a straight 300/3 now = 450/3 will be an easy transition. Other factors have to play out.

Of course I don't make it to tourneys anymore due to schedule, but I can say we were playing mostly 400/4 unless it was scenario night (which would range from 300/3 to 599/6... to avoid Galactus)Only one Leadership can be used per round anyway.

"I voted for keeping the total at 300, but I would be open to 400 as well. If 400 points became the standard, it would be very interesting to see all of the new teams!" This is already the case since we are talking about sealed events (mostly) and their are new teams everytime.

[Gentlegamer]

Here's my idea on the issue of point totals an action allotments (posted earlier on Strategy/Tactics):

I think that actions allotments should max out at about four, probably. If I were to systematize it, something like this:

100 points: 1 action
200 points: 1 action
300 points: 2 actions
400 points: 2 actions
500 points: 3 actions
600 points: 3 actions
700 points: 3 actions
800 points: 3 actions
900 points: 4 actions
1000 points: 4 actions

The other effect of limiting actions is to make high cost characters much more "worth their points" by partly eliminating their actions-to-points inefficiency.

[Batman1983]

Yes, JayThor, I know how Leadership currently works. I was suggesting a rules change. Anyway thought I'd clarify.

[George Smiley]

Does anyone have any information about the likelyhood or nonlikleyhood of a 400pt., a 450 pt. or a 450 pt.-1 action per 150 pts. change?

Is it ever seriously discussed by the people who ultimately make up or decide the latest rules?

How long do you believe the 300 pt. default total will last?

[Slayer_Xtreme]

Its just so hard making 300 points now in these new sets. In the first sets there were extremely low point figures to help with your points. Sure feats and pogs help ease that but when your playing in an event such as a sealed or draft and being restricted to 300 points you find you don't have much room and have feats that won't fit right with what you pulled. Default for those events should go to at least 400 points or even not have a default instede you can have the judge look around at what was pulled and decide on a fair build total that everyone can deal with. You want to use your big point figures if you pull them such as Nimrod but in 300 point sealed/drafts it can be near impossible. Raise the point default point total.

[George Smiley]

I tried two games of 600 points and 150 points per action this weekend and it was really fun. We played lots of feats and had several of our favorite characters on the board at once. (My opponent didn't want to play BFC cards.)

We each played our own good guys one turn and our own bad guys the next. We both played Juggernaut with the Unstoppable Feat Card and Rip It Up and my initial impression is that he is a beast to be reckoned with. Expect to face Juggy in the future, he is fun to play and he really hurt my FF team. When I used him he destroyed an Avengers/Ultimates team. The Alternate Fantastic Four team feat was a huge help to my FF/Spidey/Iron Fist/ Powerman team. Brilliant Tactician did not help my FF team much.

I know that WIZKIDS isn't going to adopt this default total or points to actions ratio but give this a chance if you haven't tried it. It was great fun.

[Darkseid's Son]

I don;t think the default game should change. To be honest, I've played VERY few games at the 'default' 300-pts. so changing it'd be pointless.

[George Smiley]

Darkseid's son you are probably going to get your wish, the default total appears to be sticking to 300. If you are playing 300 point games more power to you, if you are not playing 300 point games your argument is probably "Why let WIZKIDS dictate something like a default total when the people I play with are perfectly capable of setting whatever total we'd like to use at whatever time we'd like to use it.

I imagine you could change almost any aspect of the game you'd wish to, Heck, why not make TKing someone into a wall cause damage. Almost everyone agrees it is logical and comic accurate, The reason we resist such changes is obviously so we have some consistency from venue to venue.

[superloafer]

i think the points should go up. 400 would be a little better but 500 would be perfect. i mean 300??? what about us clixers with ares? that only leaves 25 points if ares is used. alot of the better pieces are hard to play in 300 point games(ares, KC supes, KC shazam, Nimrod,KC GL,etc.).I'd really like to see the point value go up.

[Darkseid's Son]

Chiming in, once more:

I think the 300-pt. limit is great. For all you players w/ Ares or big KC pieces? Learn to play without 'em. Not all of us have clix of that caliber, point-value, or ability.

I have almost 600 clix, and I have one figure that is over 200-pts. and not a Big Fig.

300-pt. limit helps some of us without the really, really good stuff stay somewhat competitive.

Upping the point limit won't really help most of us w/o the monster pieces, really. Sure, we can bring more of our tough guys, but the competition doesn't always stack up.

I know it's not everyone else's fault I don't have those super-clix, and some might be thinking "Don't punish me because your collection sucks." and I kind of agree, but I have the huge collection I do from buying up tons of boosters and such trying to find those super-clix. So, I have a lot of stuff to trade, but nothing anyone will trade me for a KC bad-@$$ or the like. vicious circle.

Bottom line: keep it 300-pts. so I'll keep playing in these tournaments. Once it goes to a point where I can't really compete, I'm not going to bother even trying, and the game will be ruined for me.

[George Smiley]

Darkseid's son,

You are probably correct that a person's play will improve when they learn to play a team with several low cost figures but it is even more fun and a lot better to play with the pieces you really want to play with (and those are often high pt. figs.). I've heard several players make the argument that high point figures often are so powerful that they can mask player deficiencies. (I still want to play them.)

ALSO:
How can you have so many pieces (600 +) and not have but one piece above 200 points? It just doesn't make sense unless you are incredibly unlucky picking boosters.

[Darkseid's Son]

Really bad luck, lack of product to buy, and for over a year there, I wasn't able to buy anything (I was deployed over in the desert, chasing my good pal Al. Al Queda.

LOL.

Seriously, I admit it's really frikkin' odd.

I've since found a store where single, loose figures are available for purchase, but having to explin to the little lady that I just spent over $20 on one little piece of plastic.

Hell, just a couple days ago, one of my best buddies dropped $50 on a KC Superman.

Even if I had that kind of money, it'd be really hard to justify the cost.

And, believe me, I know just how much it must suck to have those great pieces and not get to play 'em. You got it, you should be allowed to flaunt it, right?

But, that's where the high-point games come in, right?

[lunar]

I didn't know that 300 was default when I started playing. I tried all kinds of dif point values with my friends. 300 was always the funnest. 600 is way too long. 100 is good but sometimes too simplistic. 300 is just right.
If the action per point ratio were increased weenie teams would suffer. Weenie teams already suck so I see no reason to make them suck more. I realize that everyone has tons of high point figures that they've never used... I do to. Its a problem, but maybe the solution is lower point figures. Maybe not, its just a brainstorm. I don't think changing actions per turn is the solution. Though it would help make Leadership good. Right now Leadership SUCKS.

[George Smiley]

Leadership isn't valuable unless you have several figures relative to your number of actions. When someone plays the right pieces and the right number of pieces with that extra action that action can be the factor that decides the game.

I would love it if the points per figure were decreased and we still played 300 point games but I don't see that being much different from a default 400 and I think it would be irritating to go back and revise all of the figures total point cost.

[tidge]

Raising the point total to 400 points would exagerate the following existing problems (in constructed games):
Undercosted figures and feats would be even more prevalent (Con Artists, Paramedics, ICwO)
Even more fodder for flip-flopping Wild Card teams.
You can still use KC Superman in a 300-point game, you just cannot use him with as much cheeseball support as you can in a 400-point game.

In sealed events, if WizKids is going to keep producing sets that do not lend themselves to 300-point games, I am happy to go to higher point values...but I think it is in the best interest of the game that there be a significant number of sub 50-point pieces in each set...pogs and feats cannot make up the difference, especially in sealed formats.

[George Smiley]

[QUOTE=tidge]Raising the point total to 400 points would exagerate the following existing problems (in constructed games):
Undercosted figures and feats would be even more prevalent (Con Artists, Paramedics, ICwO)
Even more fodder for flip-flopping Wild Card teams.

I agree that a default 400 or a default 400+ lends itself to or aggravates these problems. However I believe a problem that is significantly worse is the fact that 400 points doesn't allow you to play combinations of the figures that players read in comic books or see on television. I am convinced that for the vast majority the reader's or viewer's relationship with the characters drives Heroclix not playing the game itself. As I have played more games I have noticed myself enjoying the "metagaming" aspect of the game more.

Hopefully some of the problems WIZKIDs has created with "cheese" figures and mechanics will be allieviated as the game ages. I see a healthy game that will last for years but I also believe that some modifications are definitely in order. Some of these problems would be easy to correct too.

[George Smiley]

I meant...
..."a problem that is significantly worse is the fact that 300 points doesn't allow you to play combinations of "

[deadshot042]

500 points/ 5 actions
This has always seemed to give the best balance and best competetive teams at my comci store it also take s away some of the power from cheese like Thor.

[Widowmaker03]

lets keep the total at 300 pts... with the power curve rising like it is, changing the point total to 400 would be an excuse to let the power curve run amok... Wizkids says that they are trying to fight the curve, and letting the points rise to 400 would just about break the dam and let the water flow...

The reason i like 300 points is because it isn't too little so that if you do pull a heavy hitter (count nefaria and nimrod from past sets) you will be able to use it, but you wont have much room to put much else on there. Where as the smaller figs will be more tactful but easier prey to the big stuff... If we turn the game into 400 pts, this will iliminate that hard choice to play with big guns or tactics, everyone will run big guns with tactics, and if you weren't lucky to pull the big gun, u are SOL.

[George Smiley]

If it was up to me the 300 point dam would break and we would be able to field our expensive 200 pt. pieces with adequate support and feat cards. The way it stands now it is difficult to field expensive characters who routinely work together. I'm playing in a 300 pt. unrestricted tournament this weekend and it severely restricts teambuilding. I just don't think 300 points is enough.

[tidge]

Last week we played an open (restricted) 3-round, 200-point tourney with 11 players. Most of the players were younger kids. We actually were done in less than 3 hours! I'd almost forgotten how much fun a small, fast game can be.

[Darkseid's Son]

Once again, I simply have to put in my opinion:

Can't figure out how to put that 200+ pt. character into a 300-pt. game with worthwhile support? Pick lower-point characters! Learn to use the rest of your collection. Yes, I understand, you have them, you want to use them... I have two 200+ pointers, and guess what? I've never used either of them in a game, friendly or tournament since I've gotten them. Will I? I damn well better, they both cost me dearly enough.

If you can't make a "decent team" in under 300-pts. it's your problem, not ours.

I'm sorry if the tone was a little harsh there, but it's getting redundant.

[StormCrawler]

I'd say, leave the 300 points, and make it 2 actions. Kind of increases the use of Leadership and free movement TA's.

[Gacy's Clown]

Boy, that would speed up the game and make it exciting..... :rolleyes:

[thugit]

Once again, I simply have to put in my opinion:

Can't figure out how to put that 200+ pt. character into a 300-pt. game with worthwhile support? Pick lower-point characters! Learn to use the rest of your collection. Yes, I understand, you have them, you want to use them... I have two 200+ pointers, and guess what? I've never used either of them in a game, friendly or tournament since I've gotten them. Will I? I damn well better, they both cost me dearly enough.

If you can't make a "decent team" in under 300-pts. it's your problem, not ours.

I'm sorry if the tone was a little harsh there, but it's getting redundant.


Yeah, because wanting to be able to play the characters you like is just stupid.



Our venue has played 400 as the standard for around a year now--the variety of teams improved and people actually get to play all of their figures. They don't have to play figures they don't want to simply because the characters they prefer cost more.

[Darkseid's Son]

Yeah, because wanting to be able to play the characters you like is just stupid.

I never said that. I said, play something different in the smaller games.

You just said your venue has played 400-pts. for a year or so , so... what concern is it of yours what the point value is? My venue plays maybe one 300-pt. tourney a month.

In the end, I still don't see a reasonable argument from anyone as to why the tournament policy has to change because people want to use thier biggest, baddest pieces. You want to play games with the super, uberr-mecha-baddies? Fine. Maybe I don't.

Why's your opinion right? Why do I have to be the one to cave in to your wishes? There are plenty of us who do not want the level to change, too, you know.

The most prevalent argument I see over rasing the build total to 400-pts. is "I wanna play my 250+ pt. character with as much support as possible! It isn't fair that I have to make careful slections! I want everything!" You want to play Ares? Fine, play Ares. But live with your decision. Play Ares and what little support you can squeeze into the game. Wait for the higher build total games to go all out.

But quit telling me you can't play at only 300-pts.

Everyone here knows, as soon as WK does raise the bar, a good hunk of people will cry about how it needs to be 500-pts.

[thugit]

I never said that. I said, play something different in the smaller games.

You just said your venue has played 400-pts. for a year or so , so... what concern is it of yours what the point value is? My venue plays maybe one 300-pt. tourney a month.

In the end, I still don't see a reasonable argument from anyone as to why the tournament policy has to change because people want to use thier biggest, baddest pieces. You want to play games with the super, uberr-mecha-baddies? Fine. Maybe I don't.

Why's your opinion right? Why do I have to be the one to cave in to your wishes? There are plenty of us who do not want the level to change, too, you know.

The most prevalent argument I see over rasing the build total to 400-pts. is "I wanna play my 250+ pt. character with as much support as possible! It isn't fair that I have to make careful slections! I want everything!" You want to play Ares? Fine, play Ares. But live with your decision. Play Ares and what little support you can squeeze into the game. Wait for the higher build total games to go all out.

But quit telling me you can't play at only 300-pts.

Everyone here knows, as soon as WK does raise the bar, a good hunk of people will cry about how it needs to be 500-pts.


"Learn to use the rest of your collection." That's pretty much questioning the intelligence of people who don't like to play smaller games.

I never, ever said that you can't play at only 300 points--nor did I say anything that insinuated it.


Why does everyone else have to play the way you want? That goes both ways--perhaps you didn't see the irony there.


If the point total increased to 400, you could play even more of the smaller, more cost efficient characters that you seem to prefer. I mean, come on--learn to use the rest of your collection.

[Gacy's Clown]

Raising the point total in non-Sealed events should not happen until Universe is retired in order to get rid of so many of the usual Support pieces.....

[Darkseid's Son]

"Learn to use the rest of your collection." That's pretty much questioning the intelligence of people who don't like to play smaller games.

I never, ever said that you can't play at only 300 points--nor did I say anything that insinuated it.


Why does everyone else have to play the way you want? That goes both ways--perhaps you didn't see the irony there.


If the point total increased to 400, you could play even more of the smaller, more cost efficient characters that you seem to prefer. I mean, come on--learn to use the rest of your collection.

Not questioning the intelligence of anyone at all. But, seriously, just because you have the big, bad clix, doesn't mean you have to use 'em every game, does it?

Thing is, I never said everyone has to play my way. Not even remotely. But why does the default build total have to up? Because you want it to?

I have quite a nice collection, actually, and I quite often switch it up, thanks for asking.

[thugit]

Not questioning the intelligence of anyone at all. But, seriously, just because you have the big, bad clix, doesn't mean you have to use 'em every game, does it?

Thing is, I never said everyone has to play my way. Not even remotely. But why does the default build total have to up? Because you want it to?

I have quite a nice collection, actually, and I quite often switch it up, thanks for asking.



People play HUGE Hydra armies, Shield armies and PD teams at our venue all the time. Just because you CAN play the bigger point characters doesn't mean you have to. I don't know why you think that people shouldn't be allowed the choice--and we both know that Ares isn't winning any 300 point games anytime soon. (Or any games at all from what I've seen!) People should be allowed to field those characters in a competitive way.

Like I said--we've played that way for over a year. The smaller characters don't suffer at all--you can actually put even more of them out there.


"Because you want it to?"

Why not? Because you DON'T want it to?

While the poll is a small number of actual players, you should take note that over 50% have said that they want 400 points or higher--has it occured to you that your opinion is the minority one?

[Darkseid's Son]

Like I said--we've played that way for over a year. The smaller characters don't suffer at all--you can actually put even more of them out there.


"Because you want it to?"

Why not? Because you DON'T want it to?

While the poll is a small number of actual players, you should take note that over 50% have said that they want 400 points or higher--has it occured to you that your opinion is the minority one?

From my experience, against certain big boys, bringing more against them doesn't mean anything. I've seen certain big KC pieces wipe the board with groups that should have by all rights beaten them. I've seen it go both ways.

We're at an impasse when it comes to this debate. My mind's made up, as is yours. We're of differing opinions. Mine won't change on the subject. Nor will yours, obviously.

Here's a funny thing about the poll: Like you said, it's a small number of players who've posted. Of whom I'm in the minority. How is that a comprehensive, accurate accounting? Not everyone on this forum has chimed in. Either way, the majority of those who've read this thread and posted, or voted on the poll are ones with tremendously strong feelingson the subject. I know many, many players who don't care one way or the other.

Pointing to the limited results of the poll as the de facto, comprehensive reasoning for me being wrong isn't quite the final argument you think it is.

I'll concede that the majority of people voting on this poll are in agreement with you.

My biggest argument for raising the bar in competitive tourney play has always been that, by raising the point total to 400-pts. so that bigger, meaner pieces can be played more often is very much likely to keep new players who've yet to get any of those killer pieces from playing in tourneys often. I've already seen two people I played friendly games with often go to a few tourneys and get so disheartened by the cheese and power-creep levels that they won't go to tournament nights any more.

Making it easier for everyone who's got the big monsters to use them all the time... will contribute, in my experience so far, to some people not wanting to play. A lot of the fun goes screaming from the game when you don't feel like you can compete.

I'm tired of arguing. Okay, you know what? You win. You're right, I'm wrong, and my opnion doesn't count.

But I won't change my mind.

[thugit]

Here's a funny thing about the poll: Like you said, it's a small number of players who've posted. Of whom I'm in the minority. How is that a comprehensive, accurate accounting?


When did I ever say it was?



Not everyone on this forum has chimed in. Either way, the majority of those who've read this thread and posted, or voted on the poll are ones with tremendously strong feelingson the subject. I know many, many players who don't care one way or the other.

Pointing to the limited results of the poll as the de facto, comprehensive reasoning for me being wrong isn't quite the final argument you think it is.


Quit putting words in my mouth. I said that it was a small number. I didn't say it was a "final arguement." I pointed out that of the people who answered the poll, most of them disagree with you.


I didn't say that your opinion didn't count, either. It seems to me that you just want to rail on anyone who disagrees with your point of view and repeat your "arguement" of "Why should it be your way?"


Even if it's a small number of people--it's not just "my opinion." It's clearly the opinion of many others, too. If the people who don't vote don't care, then their opinions (or lack thereof) are totally irrelevant here, just like they are in any other poll of opinion.

[Darkseid's Son]

When did I ever say it was?

I picked up on what I thoght was an implied tone. My apologies.


Quit putting words in my mouth. I said that it was a small number. I didn't say it was a "final arguement." I pointed out that of the people who answered the poll, most of them disagree with you.


I didn't say that your opinion didn't count, either. It seems to me that you just want to rail on anyone who disagrees with your point of view and repeat your "arguement" of "Why should it be your way?"


Even if it's a small number of people--it's not just "my opinion." It's clearly the opinion of many others, too. If the people who don't vote don't care, then their opinions (or lack thereof) are totally irrelevant here, just like they are in any other poll of opinion.

Again, there seemed, to the way I read it, that tone. It's hard to get peoples' iflections out of printed text. I said I was done arguing my point of view on this topic, and I meant it.

I'm sorry if you think I was putting words in your mouth, but that's how it came off (to me, if no one else).

My position hasn't changed, and nothing you or any of the other folks on the other side of the argument have given me reason to change my mind.

Take it easy.

[George Smiley]

My observations of the tournament scene are pretty limited (I live and play HC in Southeast Georgia) but when I talk to players I hear a small vocal minority that doesn't want to switch, a small group that is indifferent and a larger majority group that appears to prefer a 400 point default.

[moatcarp01]

How's this for an idea. Make Classes. No, not teaching classes. Classes classes with divided point values. For Example, use 300 pts as a standard for new people, people who dont have a lot of money to buy a lot of figs, and or people who just want to play a quicker game. Then go to something like 400 or 450 for people who are a little more experienced/have higher point figs. Lastly make a class for 500+ points for those that like a lot higher point games.
You could call the classes something like Beginner Intermediate and Advanced I guess, or whatever you want.
As for actions I like the 1 action per 100 pts, but that can be up to the places/people holding tournaments and games for fun.
O well, ignore this or pay attention, its up to you but thats how I see to end this arguing.