TV Cartoon Battles: Super-Heavyweight Division: Round 3, Match 3

[DTM]

Very fast, off to work soon, enjoy all. :)

Now without further adieu, allow me to present your next battle in a BRAND NEW (Actually unless youre from Mars, these are pretty old hat by now) type of Tournament Of Champions:


TIAMAT (DUNGEONS & DRAGONS)


VS.


WISEMAN (SAILOR MOON)


As always, same rules apply, no time to prepare, POOFed from where ever they were, with only what they routinely carry on them AND/OR routinely used in their shows, to fight in a Large area til one stands and one falls. YOU decide Who.

Randomly Chosen Area:


New Millenium City - A large, modern city, full of gleaming steel, and polished marble skyscrapers. High speed train tracks, suspended in the sky, whisk it's industrious population from building to building. Perfectly manicured parks are nested at the feet of gleaming edifices to modern design.
(Inspired by: Superman TAS, Transformers (ie, Cybertron) and similar shows)


Thanks all, and enjoy.

And REMEMBER, if youre not sure who someone is here, ASK. Theres PLENTY of people here who can tell you most anything youd like to know. Thanks again.

ALSO, please do your best to respect everyones votes, reasonings and opinions here. If you believe your character should win, but doesnt in the end, dont hold grudges against the character that beat yours, or call the votes that allowed this to happen "fanboy" arguments or plain and simply wrong. We all have our own way of thinking and voting here, with each one of our thoughts and ideas as valid as your own. Lets do what we can, even in the heat of an argument, to respect that. Thanks.


TV CARTOON TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS Part 4


ROUND 1

He-Man vs. Oberon: Oberon (12 - 7)
Tiamat vs. Superion: Tiamat (15 - 4)
Big O vs. The Gundam: Big O (7 - 0)
Omega Supreme vs. Hordak: Omega Supreme (7 - 0)
Godzilla vs. Imhotep: Godzilla (9 - 2)
Genie vs. Ryoko: Genie (11 - 10)
Shendu vs. Legato Bluesummers: Shendu (11 - 4)
King Hiss vs. Voltron (Vehicle Form): Voltron (Vehicle Form) (8 - 2)
Venger vs. Devastator: Venger (7 - 2)
Space Ghost vs. BlackWarGreymon: Space Ghost (10 - 5)
Metlar vs. Mewtwo: Mewtwo (10 - 1)
Sailor Saturn vs. Gundam Deathscyth v.2: Gundam Deathscyth v.2 (7 - 3)
Dracula vs. Wiseman: Wiseman (8 - 7)
Lord Hazanko vs. Mozenrath: Lord Hazanko (5 - 4)
Talpa vs. Experiment 627: Talpa (5 - 2)
Pyron vs. Voltron (Lion Form): Pyron (7 - 6)


ROUND 2

Tiamat vs. Godzilla: Tiamat (10 - 3)
Shendu vs. Lord Hazanko: Lord Hazanko (9 - 8)
Genie vs. Pyron: Pryon (10 - 8)
Wiseman vs. Voltron (Vehicle Form): Wiseman (8 - 0)
Big O vs. Oberon: Oberon (8 - 2)
Space Ghost vs. MewTwo: Mewtwo (9 - 4)
Venger vs. Gundam Deathscyth v.2: Venger (9 - 0)
Omega Surpeme vs. Talpa: Omega Supreme (8 - 5)


ROUND 3

Lord Hazanko vs. Venger: Venger
Oberon vs. Mewtwo: Mewtwo
Tiamat vs. Wiseman: ??????


13 Down, 3 To Go

[DTM]

Tiamat (Dungeons & Dragons) – Tiamat is the Queen of all evil dragons in the realm of Dungeons and Dragons. This Gigantic 5 headed dragon has immense power and intellect, and she can breath multiple breath weapons of fire, cold, poison gas, lightning and acid ooze (each separately or all at once) to devastating effect, in addition to flight, and vast physical and magical durability. Queen of the most powerful race of creatures in her world, and the only being in the D&D universe Venger fears, its no wonder Tiamat is one of the most powerful beings in her entire realm.


Wiseman (Sailor Moon) – Wiseman, aka: Death Phantom, is an ancient magic being of shadow and magic. Wielding the incredible power of the Dark Crystal, his goal is to first conquer, and then destroy, the universe with his dark power. His favored method of doing so is corrupting, attacking the mind of a target and infusing them with his energy, manipulating their mind and turning them against whomever he wills.

In battle, his magics are often used on a large scale, creating storms of destruction and dark lighting that can lay waste to an area or concentrating the dark bolts upon his foes. He may also attack with his dark magics in a wide variety of ways, all reinforced and strengthened by the might of the Dark Crystal to frightening levels, in addition to his more subtle means. He also flies and can teleport.

In his Wiseman guise, he often uses a crystal ball (seperate from the Dark Crystal) to scry information on his enemies, view them from a distance, and plan on how to best deal with them.

[Rokk_Krinn]

You should just post the Pyron/Omega fight too as long as you're at it. ;)

[Avatar Jack]

I'm going to go with Wiseman here. The reason being that he has plenty of room to hide here and attack, which seems to be his prefered method. Tiamat is, well, big. Really big and unable to hide. She's tough, but I believe Wiseman's magic attacks (lighting) will be enough to roast this dragon.

[Rando]

I'm not sure about this fight really. It's like a rock and a hard place. Tiamat has tremedous magical resistance and that is all Wiseman has:a bunch of magical attacks. On the other hand Wiseman can scry and teleport (not that he really needs the scrying to see Tiamat comeing) so Tiamat can't really ever reach Wiseman. It's like a battle of guys that can't hurt each other.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Avatar Jack
I'm going to go with Wiseman here. The reason being that he has plenty of room to hide here and attack, which seems to be his prefered method. Tiamat is, well, big. Really big and unable to hide. She's tough, but I believe Wiseman's magic attacks (lighting) will be enough to roast this dragon.

The thing here is that Tiamat is essentially immune to lightning - both magical and natural. While Wiseman can try to hide, Tiamat is a lesser goddess with enhanced senses. Think of it this way: remember how Smaug almost found Bilbo when the Hobbit was using the One Ring (because of the dragon's senses)? Now you have the Queen of the Dragons (who's also a devil) with _five_ heads searching for a guy that's not actually going to be invisible. Stealth is not a smart option here.

Vote: Tiamat

[MSU]

Hmmm...can Tiamat catch Wiseman? Can Wiseman hurt Tiamat? Can Tiamat destroy the entire city before Wiseman can get away?

[thedon99]

Hmmm, at first I was going to go with Wiseman, but I have been convinced otherwise. I wasn't thinking how immune to lightning she is, and her senses would aid her in finding Wiseman if he decides to try and use stealth.


________________________________________
Darth Sidious of the Star Wars Clan
Ego of the Power Cosmic Clan
She-Hulk of the New Avengers Clan
Martian Manhunter of the JLA Clan

[protectorate]

I think it's going to be a long fight, but Tiamat should eventually win it. If Wiseman hides in a building, Tiamat drops the whole building.
She should also have massive resistance to Wiseman's attacks. Wiseman also has significant defense, but when the city has been entirely leveled and they turn their attacks on each other full force Tiamat will be hitting Wiseman five times for every time he hits her. In the long run, that difference will be telling.

[deadalus13]

I vote Tiamat also. Her major resistance to magical attacks combined with her incredibel offensive ability will allow her to take him more often than not.

[Q99]

Note that lightning isn't his only attack, just the most common form. He can also attack with living shadows and the like.


Also, I'll note that it's a city, and that means tons of places to hide and attack where he can't be attacked back, plus also if Tiamat gets low, he'll drop buildings on her (and she can blast buildings back to try and drop them on him, but he can teleport away fast enough to prevent damage from that), or summon dark winds to throw buildings wreckage at her at high speeds if even pounding her directly with spells isn't enough (charging them with dark magic Raven-style for that extra oomph. How much damage does a 2 ton I-beam +4 do at 100 mph?).


He's not likely to run out of buildings, and can attack from anywhere in the arena, and this is the terrain to avoid a Dragon in. Most of her attacks aren't going to be too effective against him (he blocks spells with his magic, and her breath weapons will mostly end up smacking buildings and accomplishing little. Also, isn't one of them gas? Totally useless- he doesn't breath. Nor too adversely affected by heat and cold, being a phantom).


I think, in general, Tiamat does have the raw power that she could beat him, but this is not the terrain to do so. He can teleport anywhere within an entire city of buildings and she'll just have to search him down again, while he can attack from a distance. He has no problem using underhanded tactics, and with the terrain handing a dozen ways to avoid direct confrontation (which he can do well at once she's worn down), he's going to take them.


My vote: Wiseman.



P.S. Ironically, Bahamaut, being a holy dragon and having light magic, would rock his socks. He'd have a bit of the same problem as Tiamat, but can both heal his own damage and his good magic would be far more effective against Wiseman than Tiamat's evil, which would feed the Dark Crystal by proximity (not much, but it does feed off darkness and evil, so another small edge to help Wiseman).

[Rando]

I'm gonna vote for Wiseman too.

Tiamat can just never attack Wiseman, it has nothing to do with being sneaky or a lot of cover, it's just a matter of simple distance: Wiseman can essentially attack (and see) any point in the arena from any other point, and can teleport (quickly) as often as he likes. Tiamat's effective range is only several hundred feet around herself, Wiseman can (and should) just stay as far away from Tiamat as possible and keep hitting her with stuff, eventually she will get whittled down, while she still simply cannot catch him.

[MSU]

Voting for Tiamat here. Wiseman is all magic...Tiamat is all magical resistance. While it will take a while for Tiamat to find Wiseman, she will eventually find him and take him out. Especially more than 50% of the time. Tiamat for the win (and to move on to round 4).

[Q99]

Voting for Tiamat here. Wiseman is all magic...Tiamat is all magical resistance.

She doesn't have 100% magic resistance (she's just resistant, not immune, after all), and there's tons of ways for him to attack her physically.

While it will take a while for Tiamat to find Wiseman, she will eventually find him and take him out.

Remember, he has teleportation and will know where she is (meaning he can teleport away if she gets within striking range, or within a half mile while she still doesn't know where he is), and can fight from cover of city (so he can blast her a couple times at fairly close, then teleport away so she'll waste energy blasting apart the building he was in).

Plus he's by no means a slouch in the direct conflict department, and can block most of her attacks just fine for awhile, it's just his total energy is a bit lower and if she's fresh she'll win a direct conflict (although unlike her he'll regenerate some in the longer term, since there's ambient dark energy for him to absorb, caused by her). After she's been harassed by shadowy scythes coming down from clouds and slicing at her, buildings thrown at her and colapses upon her if she gets close to the grown, bolts of dark energy striking her, etc. etc.? Then it's a different story (and he's not the type who'll stop just when she's somewhat worn down, he'll wait for her to be outright badly injured before he confronts her directly, and can still pull back after that).

[Rokk_Krinn]

We did see Tiamat absolutely demolish a landscape in the cartoon. She was in a _really bad mood_ (which for her is saying something) and next thing you know: earthquakes, magma eruptions, etc. Now, while that may not level the whole city at once, it's going to start annihilating hiding places _quick_ if she starts up those sort of attacks.

[Rando]

Doesn't matter. Wiseman doesn't need hideing places, he just needs to be too far away. Whether the city is leveled or not still places Wiseman outside of her range and able to attack her as well as always able to stay outside of her threat range essentially indefinently.

[icymatt]

Hmmm...both sides have brought up good points. But, all in all, Tiamat has more abilties, and can cause a whole lot of damage to the arena. I just don't think Wiseman could handle it in the end.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Tiamat can also teleport - without error - though, so it's not going to be easy for Wiseman to get a bead on her or escape before she starts mixing it up with him. I'm also not too sure how effective attacking a nigh-magically-immune (she's not 100% immune but she might as well be - besides, why else would Vengar keep fleeing her?) devil with shadow magic would be (i.e.: it's not like "darkness magic" isn't something devils would be too effected by).

[MSU]

Rokk has a point...Venger's magic couldn't hurt her, why would Wiseman (who I view as a lesser wizard than Venger) be able to hurt her?

[Q99]

Tiamat can also teleport - without error - though, so it's not going to be easy for Wiseman to get a bead on her or escape before she starts mixing it up with him.

Remember, he can lock onto her with his crystal ball and know where she is anywhere in the area. And her teleports only allow her to move around, they don't help her know where he is (and they use up her spell-slots. D&D magic and all, no spell is unlimited for her).

They both teleport, he can start attacking again in no-time, she has to search the city again.

(Oh yea, a reminder- This city is huge. I recall 25 miles or something like that as the size? It'd use up a ton of energy for her to destroy it, and that still doesn't really help her- She just used a ton of energy for an attack that won't hurt Wiseman, may even help him since it's dark magic that'll get absorbing, and he still has plenty of debris to fling at her and plenty of areas outside her line of sight)


I'm also not too sure how effective attacking a nigh-magically-immune (she's not 100% immune but she might as well be - besides, why else would Vengar keep fleeing her?)

Because she has stronger magic than him of the exact same type and is a dragon who'd crush him physical. He has none of the tricks Wiseman does here and also doesn't have the raw power of the Dark Crystal backing him.

And there's nothing 'might as well be' about it. She can be hurt by magic, she's highly resistant, it'll take a lot of pounding with magic to hurt her but hey, Wiseman can do that just fine, magic attacks do hurt her, just not too much. She's definitely not immune to getting smacked by physical things charged by magic.

Remember- Direct fight, Wiseman = incredibly powerful as well. Maybe not quite as much, but he can put up a big fight.

Indirect fight = something Wiseman can set up easily, attacking with hugely powerful city-destroy attacks of his own, not using up energy as fast as she does, and he has both easy intelligence on her location and means to get around that doesn't use much power (teleporting is low-level stuff in SM).

[Q99]

Originally posted by MSU
Rokk has a point...Venger's magic couldn't hurt her, why would Wiseman (who I view as a lesser wizard than Venger) be able to hurt her?


Venger's a demon mage. Wiseman's an ancient spirit of pure hatred and evil, also armed with the purest concentration of dark magic in existance, the Dark Crystal, which knows but one equal (it's good counterpart) boosting his abilities yet further, and with an array of abilities that are different and in many ways larger-scale than D&D magic.


Tactically speaking, he can teleport around easily and attack at any range, scrying his target without giving her any way to respond. Plus, he has TK via his powers, so non-magic attacks are also easy for him.

Powerwise speaking, he can level this city faster than she can and when using the Dark Crystal to it's fullest extent (spending power like water) crush foes, even magic resistant foes (which, btw, all the Sailor Scouts are, didn't bother him one bit), with raw force, blocking magical attacks and physical alike with waves of darkness.

Wiseman > Venger, by a good margin, in terms of both raw power and the usefulness of abilities here against this foe.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Q99
Remember, he can lock onto her with his crystal ball and know where she is anywhere in the area. And her teleports only allow her to move around, they don't help her know where he is (and they use up her spell-slots. D&D magic and all, no spell is unlimited for her).


Except that in this case it's not a spell slot for her. Tiamat is also a devil and higher level devils have "teleport without error" as a natural ability.

[Magnito]

These were 2 of my favs from the beginong, but I'll vote for Tiamat. I think that Wiseman will put up a good fight, but I just don't think he can hurt her. My vote...
TIAMAT

[Q99]

Except that in this case it's not a spell slot for her. Tiamat is also a devil and higher level devils have "teleport without error" as a natural ability.

Ah. Still, that makes two of them, and only one can find the other at any distance.

I think that Wiseman will put up a good fight, but I just don't think he can hurt her.

??

She's not magic immune (magic weapons can actually explicitely hurt her, and spells work too, just not as often), and he can use his attacks indirectly.

On the flip side, he's shown at least as much magic resistance as she has, defending against the Silver Crystal, a magic artifact more powerful than anything in the D&D cartoon.

What's your basis for saying he can't hurt her?

[Magnito]

Originally posted by Q99
What's your basis for saying he can't hurt her?
Gut fealing? ;)

[Q99]

Yea, gut's nice and all, but Wiseman has demonstrated power to affect this kind of foe (heck, he onces made a dragon), and Tiamat's still physical. She hasn't demonstrated such immunity as you claim, and he can destroy cities.


Not only has Wiseman faced magic on her level of power, he is magic on her level of power, as well as an extremely intelligent foe with a large tactical advantage gere.
So I'd think at least fact that Wiseman can cause her a good deal of pain shouldn't be in doubt.

[The Red Baron]

Originally posted by Magnito
Gut fealing? ;)

Behold the TRUE Power of Cheese, an Five Alarm Chili

[Poring]

Well, Wiseman is on par with Dracula and Venger in the magic demon overlord department, so I would say he can win this... but barely.

Vote: Wiseman

[Rando]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Tiamat can also teleport - without error - though, so it's not going to be easy for Wiseman to get a bead on her or escape before she starts mixing it up with him. I'm also not too sure how effective attacking a nigh-magically-immune (she's not 100% immune but she might as well be - besides, why else would Vengar keep fleeing her?) devil with shadow magic would be (i.e.: it's not like "darkness magic" isn't something devils would be too effected by).

You sure about that? If she can only cast up to 5th level spells then she can't cast teleport without error (and she could only cast teleport a very few times, and with error).

[Rando]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Except that in this case it's not a spell slot for her. Tiamat is also a devil and higher level devils have "teleport without error" as a natural ability.

They also require magic weapons to hurt, and you debunked that earlier.

[Rando]

Originally posted by MSU
Rokk has a point...Venger's magic couldn't hurt her, why would Wiseman (who I view as a lesser wizard than Venger) be able to hurt her?

Vengar's magic can hurt her, just not much, and unlike Wiseman his range is the same as hers, so Vengar can't attack Tiamat without being attacked back. Wiseman can attack her without being attacked back, indefinently.

[DTM]

Originally posted by Q99
Venger's a demon mage. Wiseman's an ancient spirit of pure hatred and evil, also armed with the purest concentration of dark magic in existance, the Dark Crystal, which knows but one equal (it's good counterpart) boosting his abilities yet further, and with an array of abilities that are different and in many ways larger-scale than D&D magic.


Tactically speaking, he can teleport around easily and attack at any range, scrying his target without giving her any way to respond. Plus, he has TK via his powers, so non-magic attacks are also easy for him.

Powerwise speaking, he can level this city faster than she can and when using the Dark Crystal to it's fullest extent (spending power like water) crush foes, even magic resistant foes (which, btw, all the Sailor Scouts are, didn't bother him one bit), with raw force, blocking magical attacks and physical alike with waves of darkness.

Wiseman > Venger, by a good margin, in terms of both raw power and the usefulness of abilities here against this foe.

Venger is the son of Dungeon Master, not just some random Demon or Devil. We have no idea how old Venger is, though considering hes the most powerful being on his entire world, save DM and Tiamat, Id beg to differ with saying Wiseman is greater than Venger in power and by a huge margin at that.

Personally, if Tiamats magic resistance is so high that Venger could barely hurt her, Im not going to lightly, if at all, give Wiseman (another high level magic user) the win here. Wiseman barely beat Dracula, and I think Ive certainly give Tiamat the win over Drac myself.

[DTM]

Originally posted by Poring
Well, Wiseman is on par with Dracula and Venger in the magic demon overlord department, so I would say he can win this... but barely.

Vote: Wiseman

You do realize that Tiamat routinely defeated Venger on the AD&D cartoon, right?

[DTM]

Tiamat - 7 votes
Wiseman - 4 votes

[Q99]

Venger is the son of Dungeon Master, not just some random Demon or Devil. We have no idea how old Venger is, though considering hes the most powerful being on his entire world, save DM and Tiamat, Id beg to differ with saying Wiseman is greater than Venger in power and by a huge margin at that.

I know he's not some random demon or devil. Wiseman's not some random evil spirit either, and he has the more pure crystalization of dark magic in existance with him. A huge well of power to dip into. You don't seem to be getting that Wiseman is pretty much a force of nature, a being of absolute evil and incredible power in the Sailor Moon world that has quite a bit of that stuff to compare him to. He fights and defeats a group of other really powerful evil beings with strong magic at least as easily as Tiamat does Venger.

He wouldn't totally overwhelm Venger or anything (if they fought in close), but with the Dark Crystal, he has a quite noticable raw power edge.


Plus, the whole scrying thing gives him a huge edge. He can attack with magics stronger than Venger's (and also of a type different than Vengers, and he has use his power to overwhelm magic resistance before in the show), or use them indirectly to control the weather or throw entire buildings at her (which is within his power), at ranges that she can't come close to fighting, and he can use teleportation to stay at those long ranges easily, and has no problem doing so.

[Q99]

Even if you don't think of Wiseman as as powerful as he is, it doesn't change there's not much way for Tiamat to hurt him either, and she'll run out of magic trying before he does, he'll wear her down.

[Q99]

Thought of a good analogy: Tiamat is a soldier with hand grenades and body armor. Wiseman is a soldier with a grenade launcher and a GPS system that says the location of both combatants on the field, but no body armor.


Even with the slight edge of being tougher, Wiseman still has the big tactical edge.

[Poring]

Originally posted by DTM
You do realize that Tiamat routinely defeated Venger on the AD&D cartoon, right?

Even so, I simply meant that Wiseman is on level with the other magical entities in this division. Wiseman has magic Dracula and Venger dont have and vice versa. Venger may lose to Tiamat routinely, but Wiseman is an entirely different story.

Aladdin beats Jafar all the time. Jafar is always at least SHW level and Aladdin is less than LW. That does not mean that other charachters who are stronger than Aladdin will beat Jafar one-on-one.

[ca551u5]

SWEET DRUNKEN NINJA JESUS!

Well, that city has about 6 seconds to live, that's for sure, since Wiseman's Dark Storms and Tiamat's good old fashion rampage is going to reduce the whole thing to dust.

Lets see, in one corner, we have the Queen of Evil Dragonkind, a goddess and Devil that Asmodeus, the original manifestation of Evil in the D&D cosmology respects and leaves alone.

In the other corner, we have a being who isn't just a user of Dark Magic, he IS Dark Magic embodied, with a near infinite wellspring of power in the Dark Crystal.

In terms of raw physical beatdown, there's no-one left in this tournament who can hold a candle to Tiamat. She's no slouch magically, but she's got nothing on Wiseman or his ilk. Wiseman can unload a barrage of magic at her, but the fact is that she faces that routinely, courtesy of Venger. Wiseman's probably nastier (Q99's right about just how dangerous that Crystal is), but considering how badly she owns Venger, I'd have to say that through sheer horrifying power, Wiseman's outclassed here.

His immense durability means that Tiamat's going to be pushing herself hard here, but the raw power of her breath weaponry, natural weaponry and ability to burninate the whole frickin' city through an earthquake/eruption combo means that Wiseman is going down here.

Eventually.

My new fave for the win, BTW, is now Mewtwo, since he's bringin' down Oberon, (who was my fave), with a terrain win.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Rando
They also require magic weapons to hurt, and you debunked that earlier.

That's because not all devils - not even all greater devils - were automatically immune to non-magical weapons. Some of them had no such immunity listed in their entry or were not specified as such. Ergo, you have to figure it's not a "catch all" immunity and if Tiamat isn't listed with that immunity (which I agree was dumb) then I have to go with the "fell through the cracks" reasoning. She was pretty much immune to magic though (for one thing her saves would have been calculated at double her HD which puts her beyond anything but Bahumat and greater deities for that in the D&D world).

The "teleport without error", on the other hand, is an ability given to all devils (I err'd when I said "greater devils"). Powers specifically listed as being available to _all_ devils (even lesser ones) were/are:

*Charm Person
*Suggestion
*Illusion
*Infravision
*Teleport w/out Error
*Know Alignment
*Cause Fear
*Animate Dead
*Telepathy
*Summon other devils
*Assorted immunities (inc. immunity to iron weapons)

[Rando]

Stilll gives Tiamat no way to know where Wiseman is. He never even has to be there in person and she does to hurt him, even teleporting around she just has to hope she randomly bumps into him, and he then just ports away again.