View Full Version : TV Cartoon Battles: Super-Heavyweight Division: Round 3, Match 4
Well, another excellent, very close, magical duel between Ancient Evil and Queen of Dragons. In the end, thus far, Tiamat has the win, but with a day or so left to Round 3, Wiseman can still come back......but will he?
Now without further adieu, allow me to present your next battle in a BRAND NEW (Actually unless youre from Mars, these are pretty old hat by now) type of Tournament Of Champions:
OMEGA SUPREME (TRANSFORMERS)
VS.
PYRON (DARKSTALKERS)
As always, same rules apply, no time to prepare, POOFed from where ever they were, with only what they routinely carry on them AND/OR routinely used in their shows, to fight in a Large area til one stands and one falls. YOU decide Who.
Randomly Chosen Area:
Nameless Moon - Despite all known laws of physics, you can breathe here without your head exploding. Still, it doesn’t do much for the flat grey tones of the surroundings. A thick layer of dust coats this heavily cratered surface. Definitely not the place to build a summer home. (Inspired by: Space Ghost, Superfriends, etc)
Thanks all, and enjoy.
And REMEMBER, if youre not sure who someone is here, ASK. Theres PLENTY of people here who can tell you most anything youd like to know. Thanks again.
ALSO, please do your best to respect everyones votes, reasonings and opinions here. If you believe your character should win, but doesnt in the end, dont hold grudges against the character that beat yours, or call the votes that allowed this to happen "fanboy" arguments or plain and simply wrong. We all have our own way of thinking and voting here, with each one of our thoughts and ideas as valid as your own. Lets do what we can, even in the heat of an argument, to respect that. Thanks.
TV CARTOON TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS Part 4
ROUND 1
He-Man vs. Oberon: Oberon (12 - 7)
Tiamat vs. Superion: Tiamat (15 - 4)
Big O vs. The Gundam: Big O (7 - 0)
Omega Supreme vs. Hordak: Omega Supreme (7 - 0)
Godzilla vs. Imhotep: Godzilla (9 - 2)
Genie vs. Ryoko: Genie (11 - 10)
Shendu vs. Legato Bluesummers: Shendu (11 - 4)
King Hiss vs. Voltron (Vehicle Form): Voltron (Vehicle Form) (8 - 2)
Venger vs. Devastator: Venger (7 - 2)
Space Ghost vs. BlackWarGreymon: Space Ghost (10 - 5)
Metlar vs. Mewtwo: Mewtwo (10 - 1)
Sailor Saturn vs. Gundam Deathscyth v.2: Gundam Deathscyth v.2 (7 - 3)
Dracula vs. Wiseman: Wiseman (8 - 7)
Lord Hazanko vs. Mozenrath: Lord Hazanko (5 - 4)
Talpa vs. Experiment 627: Talpa (5 - 2)
Pyron vs. Voltron (Lion Form): Pyron (7 - 6)
ROUND 2
Tiamat vs. Godzilla: Tiamat (10 - 3)
Shendu vs. Lord Hazanko: Lord Hazanko (9 - 8)
Genie vs. Pyron: Pryon (10 - 8)
Wiseman vs. Voltron (Vehicle Form): Wiseman (8 - 0)
Big O vs. Oberon: Oberon (8 - 2)
Space Ghost vs. MewTwo: Mewtwo (9 - 4)
Venger vs. Gundam Deathscyth v.2: Venger (9 - 0)
Omega Surpeme vs. Talpa: Omega Supreme (8 - 5)
ROUND 3
Lord Hazanko vs. Venger: Venger
Oberon vs. Mewtwo: Mewtwo
Tiamat vs. Wiseman: Tiamat
Omega Supreme vs. Pyron: ??????
13 Down, 3 To Go
Omega Surpeme (Transformers) - Omega Supreme is the ultimate defensive force. Although he has vast strength, it is his even greater courage which truly distinguishes him. Against overwhelming odds, he will stand unwaveringly and fight with every last microchip of his mechanical being. His fellow Autobots consider him serious, even grim, but those with insight know the reason why: the enormity of the responsibility placed on Omega Supreme. He is designed specifically as the Autobots last line of defense. It is his job to protect the Ark and anything else considered vital to the Autobot cause. He knows that should he fall in battle, chances are there will be no other Autobots left by that point to take over his role. His is a situation Omega Supreme finds both challenging and chilling. He would have it no other way.
Abilities: In robot form, Omega Supreme possesses enormous strength and firepower. A blow from one of his arms can create a massive hole in a mountainside. With his clawed arm he can lift Tremendous amounts of weight. The plasma blaster on his other arm can pulverize a solid 12' x 12' x 12' steel cube. The laser cannon mounted on his head can hit an object as small as a can at unreal distances. His armored form is virtually impervious to all non-nuclear explosives and energy-beam weapons. He can change his form into two other forms simultaneously: a laser cannon tank and a rocket with launching pad. The launching pad can boost its rocket into planetary orbit. The rocket is adaptable to communication, military and transport uses.
Weaknesses: In both intelligence and speed, Omega Supreme is a bit slow and plodding. He makes an easy target, but his enormous firepower can usually compensate for that.
Pyron (Darkstalkers) - Thousands of years old and conqueror of countless planets, the alien known as Pyron can best be summed up as a "living sun in humanoid form". He has all the powers you would expect from a solar being - magnetic, gravitational, solar, heat, light, etc. and has been shown to shift his basic form while in combat (e.g.: stretching out his arms or forming into a ball of fire). Pyron has been shown capable of annihilating groups of powerful (HW class) opponents using these powers. Incredibly difficult to hurt and a fair physical combatant even without his powers, Pyron's greatest weapon is his mind and experience. He does have a weakness though - he believes in "rules" and fights according to the nature of a contest (e.g.: when put into a hand-to-hand combat society he didn't use his powers as much and avoided going "nova" and destroying the planet...after all, why destroy that which you are meant to rule?).
I vote for Pyron.
Pyron's magentic mess should be plenty to beat a robot. Failing that he jut needs to superheat his body to what I guess would be it's normal temperature (that of a star) and teleport inside Supreme, he won't be crushed as his body is sort of a fluid and the heat will just melt him a hole very quickly.
Sheesh, I hate that scenario. Teleporting inside a solid and whole Omega. We allowed that for SHW robots that were piloted, as there was space to teleport inside and LW beings which the SHW that could be targetted. Omega Supreme is whole and sentient by himself. If were going to say Pyron simply teleports inside whole, solid opponents and blows them up from the inside, then thats a bit cheap to me personally (and I doubt seriously how Pyron fights his battles)
Omega Supreme is STRONG enough to resist even super magnetic manipultations, Id bet. (the metallic character usually has the option to resist, as Colossus does to Magneto) He routinely escapes other planets gravity to achieve orbit (his main ability and something he does with no strain) so Im not saying Pyrons gravity attacks are going to help him. And as vastly durable as OS is Im not sure even Pyrons heat will seriously dent him.
Im wondering how durable Pyron is and how many shots from OS claw hand or MEGA cannon he could take, as currently Im leaning towards Omega Surpeme.
1.Colossus doesn't have the power to resist Magneto except when people write him wrong. In the storyline where Magneto was hideing in a base in the bermuda triangle the X-men attack Magneto and Magneto picks up Colossus and starts swatting people with him, Colossus notes in a thought bubble that despite his strength he is powerless to resist.
2.Escapeing Earth's gravity does show a thing, Iron Man can do that, it doesn't make him immune to Gravition. No way in heck is Omega Supreme resisting the heat that a star can generate, there is no matter known to man that can withstand that for even seconds. If Supreme were flat out immune to it then nothing in the Transforms could even hope to hurt him, and the Transformers can apparentyl be harmed by conventional military ordnance.
3.I don't know if Pyron will give OS a fighting chance or not, he's just some machine, not a real person. C-3PO is "sentient" and has a personality, he is still just a thing.
That's to assume Omega Supreme can hurt Pyron. I don't think his super claw could physically do any damage to being of pure energy, and I bet Pyron could dodge or even deflect the the cannon blasts. Now, it would also take a little extra effort from Pyron to damage Omega Supreme. This a pure knockdown fight for two beings who have difficulties hitting or damaging eachother, but I think Pyron just has the pure advantage.
Vote: Pyron.
I didnt mean Colossus was STRONG enough to resist, but he does have the option to resist and wont make it that easy for Magneto to move him. (I do admit Magnetos magnetic powers are stronger than Peter, but Omega Surpeme is MUCH stronger than Colossus so Im willing to bet he can resist such magnetic manipultions from Pyron.
And guys, Pyron does NOT have the heat of a Star HERE. Even a Tiny Star would demolish this entire planet with ease. If were saying Pyron has the heat of even a Small Star, hes a Cosmic Being. So for all of us who believe Pyron is close to as hot and powerful as a Star (even a small one) say so now and well remove him and get another SHW in here (as basically, NO ONE could handle a being so powerful and hot, not all of the other 31 SHWs combined)
We were told by Pyrons nominator that this was him at a SHW level, and that does not come close to the heat and power of a Sun. Ive said such things since Pyron was nominated and was assured people would vote for him at a SHW, not at all strength, which would again be him at "The Power Of The Sun" levels. Ive had doubts of his SHWness when RK said he was a Magneto/Graviton/Sunboy combined, which I can somewhat understand as a High Level SHW, but when we talk about Heat Of A Sun, were talking Dark Phoenix power here.
Also, Pyrons durability, what is it? If were talking Vast Superhuman durability, adding that to Magneto/Graviton/Sunboy (who I believe all have great power none have vast durability) Im again strongly wondering how he is a SHW at all.
In the end, I think Omega Supreme has what it takes to defeat Pyron, and thus my vote lies with him.
The Red Baron
03/30/2005, 13:40
I have said from the beginning that iff pryon is giving the power of a star the gravitional forces will kill anyone here or any group in a matter of seconds, so i dont vote for him thinking he can do that. However I do vote for him because as rando pointed out he is fighting a machine and i dont think he will honor any rules set down by a machine.
No Colossus does not have the option to resist, he said so himself. The writer was Chris Claremont in case you are wondering.
A small star would demlolish the planet because it is about the size of the planet, Pyron being a man-sized entity that is that hot is not a threat to the planet. In fact Human torch can reach heat levels of that magnitude for short times (or so I've heard) he just doesn't. Additonaly most forcefields would just stop heat based stuff, they aren't matter and don't burn, OS just doesn't have one. Regardless he doesn't even need to be that hot, Devestator has a heat beam that we know for a fact can significantly damage Omega Supreme, that much heat should be more than adequate.
Besides all that Pyron has a list of abilites that will be dramatically effective against Omega Supreme. Omega Supreme has a fist and a laser, they are not more effective against Pyron than other standard forms of attack, and considering that Pyron is heat based stellar mass with a fluid physical structure they are probably less effective than many attack forms. If there is even a question as to Pyron's weight-class then there is absolutely no way that Omega Supreme should beat him as his weapons are in no way advantageous against Pyron, they are in fact probably less effective against Pyron than almost any other competitor. On the other hand Pyron has several forms of attack that are tremendously effective against a robot, a defense option that allows him to disreagrd attacks (teleportation) and is a super-genius beyond mortal imagineings, while OS is kind of slow.
So Pyron, in addition to being a power combination of Magneto/Graviton/Sunboy (possibly at a higher degree) is now immune to most physical attacks and possibly many energy based attacks?
(Im waiting for the SHW aspect to Pyron coming thru here. :) )
And Rando, get a normal human sized person with the Heat Of The Sun, and hell wreck the 25 miles arena in a matter of minutes alone just be him being there.
Hey, I voted Omega and Im sticking to it. Though I do respect Pyrons powers, and do believe he could also win as well, i would like us all to vote on his power base as a SHW level, not at his own MAX level which seems to be in the Cosmic Being class.
Originally posted by DTM
I didnt mean Colossus was STRONG enough to resist, but he does have the option to resist and wont make it that easy for Magneto to move him. (I do admit Magnetos magnetic powers are stronger than Peter, but Omega Surpeme is MUCH stronger than Colossus so Im willing to bet he can resist such magnetic manipultions from Pyron.
And guys, Pyron does NOT have the heat of a Star HERE. Even a Tiny Star would demolish this entire planet with ease. If were saying Pyron has the heat of even a Small Star, hes a Cosmic Being. So for all of us who believe Pyron is close to as hot and powerful as a Star (even a small one) say so now and well remove him and get another SHW in here (as basically, NO ONE could handle a being so powerful and hot, not all of the other 31 SHWs combined)
We were told by Pyrons nominator that this was him at a SHW level, and that does not come close to the heat and power of a Sun. Ive said such things since Pyron was nominated and was assured people would vote for him at a SHW, not at all strength, which would again be him at "The Power Of The Sun" levels. Ive had doubts of his SHWness when RK said he was a Magneto/Graviton/Sunboy combined, which I can somewhat understand as a High Level SHW, but when we talk about Heat Of A Sun, were talking Dark Phoenix power here.
Also, Pyrons durability, what is it? If were talking Vast Superhuman durability, adding that to Magneto/Graviton/Sunboy (who I believe all have great power none have vast durability) Im again strongly wondering how he is a SHW at all.
We've had this problem every single match Pyron has been in - over and over his supporters paint him out at cosmic level, while arguing against his only listed weakness.
Originally posted by The Red Baron
However I do vote for him because as rando pointed out he is fighting a machine and i dont think he will honor any rules set down by a machine.
Okay, so in earlier matches the pro-Pyron camp argued that nothing that Pyron's opponents could do would matter to the "rules," only the "rules" that DTM set down.
Now you're voting for Pyron because the rules are supposed to come from his opponent? :confused: :confused:
More and more I'm thinking we should have dropped Pyron.
Originally posted by DTM
So Pyron, in addition to being a power combination of Magneto/Graviton/Sunboy (possibly at a higher degree) is now immune to most physical attacks and possibly many energy based attacks?
(Im waiting for the SHW aspect to Pyron coming thru here. :) )
And Rando, get a normal human sized person with the Heat Of The Sun, and hell wreck the 25 miles arena in a matter of minutes alone just be him being there.
Hey, I voted Omega and Im sticking to it. Though I do respect Pyrons powers, and do believe he could also win as well, i would like us all to vote on his power base as a SHW level, not at his own MAX level which seems to be in the Cosmic Being class.
At Pyron's max level he is actually the size of a star, he can fit Earth in his hand. He doesn't need to be even close to his max level of might. Really I don't see how you can claim that you are haveing a hard time beleiving that Pyron is a SHW but that Omega Supreme should beat him, what does that make OS?
Originally posted by Rando
Really I don't see how you can claim that you are haveing a hard time beleiving that Pyron is a SHW but that Omega Supreme should beat him, what does that make OS?
What I believe he is saying is that as he was portrayed in the nomination thread and functioning at SHW level that Pyron would lose to OS.
The problem comes from the fact that since the nomination thread (and bio) that Pyron's supporters tend to grant him powers (which may be perfectly correct and in character - never seen the show) that are far beyond SHW-level.
SpakSpang
03/30/2005, 14:04
I will vote for Pyron.
Not because of some cosmic level abilites.
I will assume that OS and Pyron have close to equal attack and damage levels. Meaning, they can both hurt each other, and could probably end the battle with just a few key attacks. Both have very strong ranged attacks as well.
From this point, I will look at defensive powers. Since I am stating that both characters have the ability to severally hurt the other, I look for dodging ability.
Pyron has the ability to teleport and dodge all attacks. This teleportion is as much a defensive power as it is an offensive power though.
Pyron and dodge and attack, and dodge again. Preventing Omega Supreme from achieving any kind of targeting lock, or successful attack. I believe OS will eventually find a means to deal with such an attack, but by that time he will be too damaged to succeed in the attempt.
Pyron for the win.
Teleportation is just a hugely powerful advantage in combat.
Originally posted by Grinner
What I believe he is saying is that as he was portrayed in the nomination thread and functioning at SHW level that Pyron would lose to OS.
The problem comes from the fact that since the nomination thread (and bio) that Pyron's supporters tend to grant him powers (which may be perfectly correct and in character - never seen the show) that are far beyond SHW-level.
You say that like it is unique to Pyron. Space Ghost was getting votes for being invisible and intangible at all times and still being able to fight, and beign immune to mental powers, in short makeing him totally unassaillable, he even got a vote for sticking his finger through someone's brain. You telling me that was in the nomination thread? In Omega Supreme's last match he won because he somehow developed resitance to a magical effect that specifically ruins technology, magic resistance was obviously in no way indicated for him. I don't think Pyron has gotten blown way out of proportion at all, and all of his foes (includeing this one) are characters that he should have easy outs to beat or have no right to beat anyone in the division. In fact what in the Genie or Voltron match did he do that make you question the character interpretation? Genie loses to HW's far more than 50% of the time he should obviously lose to any of the SHW's, all Pyron needed to beat Voltron was teleportation and being a SHW in a cockpit wiht a LW, not an ability unique to him at all.
begin anti-Pyron rant
I am voting for OS here. You know why? Because if Pyron is so darn honorable (and I have argued this against Pyron EVERY SINGLE MATCH) he will fight according to the rules which means no going inside OS because that is just cheaty and dishonorable compared to fighting him straight out. He will fight OS mano vs. machine-o. I am just plain tired of all the Pyron supporters allowing this "god" to play through and then ignoring his supposed weakness when arguments come against him. Heck, Pyron almost lost to Genie in the last round. Guess what, OS has more firepower and skills that anyone gave Genie credit. We are on a moon with no place to hide for either competitor so its gonna be a blasting fight with little of the moon left. I think OS has tracking abilities and has enough firepower to take care of the moon himself. Guess what, Pyron cannot dodge and attack forever when there is nothing left to dodge too. The blasts will get him.
That being said, OS is going to blast the heck out of Pyron and move into the final 4.
/anti-Pyron rant
:grin: cheers!
(MSU waits for Rando to refute everything MSU says because thats what Rando likes to do to MSU)
J/K Rando...but seriously, come on...tell me how wrong I am! GIVE IT TO ME!!!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
(the laugh smilies mean I mean this all in good fun!)
Even if Omega Supreme blows the entire moon to bits, that would actually work to Pyron's advantage, because he is most certainly better equipped to fight in deep space than OS is. I just don't think Omega Supreme has the right kind of power to take Pyron down. Magical beings I can see standing a chance. I just don't see Pyron being very vulnerable to physical attacks (OS's claw) or normal energy cannons. He is made of solar energy, after all.
Well if you insist. Just for the sake of argument lets just assume Pyron doesn't use his magnetic powers to rip OS apart of teleports inside him and melts him and they fight it out in a more standard fashion. Omega Supreme only really has one attack method, a laser, as Pyron will never allow him (OS) to reach physical combat. This laser is plasma, first and foremost that means it would take Omega Supreme an eternity to destroy the terrain with it (it isn't really an area effect) and even if he did so what, Pyron isn't avoiding the attack by hideing in things he can dodge the attack with teleportation, all he needs for this to work is open space. In addition the laser is a heat based attack (that is what plasma is, super-heated matter, it is what stars are composed of), I can't think of a worse method of attacking a living star than with heat, it is certaintly less effective than attacking an robot with magnetism or heat of your own, or gravity. Even if Pyron couldn't dodge or attack forever (and really why couldn't he, the dude is a star, why would he tire?) he doesn't need to as Omega Supreme can't take punishment forever. It's a simple matter of that Pyron's durability and defensive abilitys are tremendously effective against Omega Supreme's and Pyron's offensive abilitys are at least as good as any of the other competitors or any other threat OS has faced, and probably better than most, and Pyron is also much, much smarter.
protectorate
03/30/2005, 14:39
Just to clear it up for me, in the Darkstalkers show, Pyron was never successfully struck by a physical blow?
I've only seen a little of the show, and played a lot of the game, and he can be struck in the game (A good thing since it's a fighting game)
Rando is now my arch-enemy and we have the same color bases. We can never agree on any match. Except for the Mewtwo one which was a blowout...other than that, he is Sinestro to my Green Lantern Corps. :laugh: :laugh:
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2005, 15:21
FIrst off, I'm really tired of people saying "all of the Pyron supporters" are now changing rules. Rando said that Pyron could port inside OS - that's one person - not a whole group of supporters. While I don't think it would be breaking the rules of "Defeat your opponent any way possible while still staying a SHW" it may not be a method Pyron uses.
So what? He's still got rather nasty magnetic and gravitational powers at his command. Being able to escape gravity to fly does not make you immune to gravitational attacks or, as noted, the Avengers would have no trouble with Graviton. Where OS is going to have trouble is when Pyron uses a mixed gravitational/magnetic attack on OS's circuits - no shielding is going to help when your systems have been compressed.
Can Pyron go to Cosmic Being level? Yes. Will he do so for this tourney? No, just as when he squared off for a "martial arts" tournament he toned down to HW level.
Has Pyron been "physically" hit previously? Yep - but it was by a magical being. He showed to be pretty much resistant to physical attacks, but when the physical attack was backed by spiritual energy - Dimitri, for example, is a ruler of Hell - then the attack landed. OS, however, is not backing that with spiritual energies. I'm not sure the claw would do much to someone that can "flow" around it and the energy attack against an energy being is pretty moot (i.e. - would you say a freeze ray does anything to Iceman?).
None of this is a change from what's been posted previously. MSU, you openly admit you have no familiarity with the character, yet you continually argue as if you know the guy inside out even when people tell you, "No. That's not how he works." You may've wanted Rando to be the one to point that out, but tough. :)
protectorate
03/30/2005, 17:18
I'm not buying the "immune to physical attacks unless backed by spiritual energy" arguement. Seems to me the spiritual energy would simply be a means of amping up the attack.
Now, assuming that Pyron is not actually a billion plus degrees (I agree with DTM's arguement that even a human sized creature at that tempature would instantly vaporize the terrain and any other character in the tournament.) then a physical blow from Omega Supreme should inflict damage. Realize that OS was the 800 lb gorrila of the Transformer world. He takes out the entire Decepticon force with zero effort. His armor took everything they threw at him without a scratch. He should be capable of striking Pyron without slagging himself.
Next arguement, striking a plasma being with a plasma attack... can conceivably hurt the plama being. The two forms of matter exist at roughly the same wavelength, so it would be like hitting Pyron with a wrecking ball traveling a million miles an hour.
Now, all of this being said, I STILL give the match to Pyron. Supreme's one significant weakness is that he is relatively slow moving. I say relatively because his reactions are still fast enough to snatch one of the Deception jets right out of the sky when it was on a straffing run. Pyron should be able to hit and move. Also, with their comparable sizes, Pyron should hit OS a whole lot more than OS hits Pyron. Pyron doesn't even have to aim much, just sort of fire in the correct general direction. Omega on the other hand will have to hit a small target (which he is shown to be excedingly good at) which can both flay and teleport.
Once Pyron manages to break through Omega's armor he should be able to dive in and fry Omega from the inside out.
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2005, 17:26
As an FYI, I don't see Pyron heating himself up to a point where he slags the arena. He could make himself hot enough to incinerate something he's touching a'la the Human Torch, but in the sake of staying a "SHW" and not devouring the arena, he's not going to be demolishing everything in the battlefield at once.
Out of curiosity, is that little clear "red pane" on top of OS as impervious as the rest of him? I'm going to say probably not. Also, he's not immune to nuclear-level force and a living sun is concentrated nuclear force (as a sun is essentially a perpetual nuclear reaction).
Rokk_Krinn
03/30/2005, 21:21
Btw, I think I made this pretty evident but just to be official..
Vote: Pyron
(And on a sidenote, why do I think if this was, say, Magneto or even anyone else who was phrased as an absolute master of vast gravitational and magnetic forces vs. a robot composed of metal and electrical circuitry there wouldn't be this much debate?)
Originally posted by Rando
At Pyron's max level he is actually the size of a star, he can fit Earth in his hand. He doesn't need to be even close to his max level of might. Really I don't see how you can claim that you are haveing a hard time beleiving that Pyron is a SHW but that Omega Supreme should beat him, what does that make OS?
Im voting for OS because I am putting Pyron in the SHW power level where he belongs HERE for this TOC.
Lets break down Pyrons powers and their levels, dictated by RK, his nominator.
Mageto - Id say with Omegas UNREAL physical size and strength that he could certainly overpower Magnetos magnetic powers. Magneto would have a tough time overpowering Optimus Prime or Megatron, OS is MUCH stronger than either of them.
Graviton - Same with above. Whether he increases gravity (which even at his max Id say Graviton couldnt crush a being as strong and large as OS), or lower gravity causing OS to hover, though since OS can fly that doesnt matter.
Sunboy - Again, Im saying OS is too durable for Sunboys heat blasts to severely dent him.
So, the Pyron combination of Magneto/Graviton/Sunboy is NOT going to be enough to handle OS more than not, in my eyes.
At his SHW levels, which is all hes allowed in this TOC and NOT the Cosmic Being levels Pyron is capable of, I dont see him having the POWER to defeat Omega Supreme.
Originally posted by Grinner
What I believe he is saying is that as he was portrayed in the nomination thread and functioning at SHW level that Pyron would lose to OS.
The problem comes from the fact that since the nomination thread (and bio) that Pyron's supporters tend to grant him powers (which may be perfectly correct and in character - never seen the show) that are far beyond SHW-level.
Exactamundo.
Originally posted by SpakSpang
I will vote for Pyron.
Not because of some cosmic level abilites.
I will assume that OS and Pyron have close to equal attack and damage levels. Meaning, they can both hurt each other, and could probably end the battle with just a few key attacks. Both have very strong ranged attacks as well.
From this point, I will look at defensive powers. Since I am stating that both characters have the ability to severally hurt the other, I look for dodging ability.
Pyron has the ability to teleport and dodge all attacks. This teleportion is as much a defensive power as it is an offensive power though.
Pyron and dodge and attack, and dodge again. Preventing Omega Supreme from achieving any kind of targeting lock, or successful attack. I believe OS will eventually find a means to deal with such an attack, but by that time he will be too damaged to succeed in the attempt.
Pyron for the win.
Teleportation is just a hugely powerful advantage in combat.
Keep in mind regarding Pyrons dodging ability, Omegas head cannon can hit an object as small as a can at Unreal distances. Add that to the fact that his head cannon can face one direction and his HUGE arm cannon can fire in the exact opposite direction, dodging such ranged attacks isnt going to be easy at all.......or does Pyron have superspeed as well now? :)
Originally posted by icymatt
Even if Omega Supreme blows the entire moon to bits, that would actually work to Pyron's advantage, because he is most certainly better equipped to fight in deep space than OS is. I just don't think Omega Supreme has the right kind of power to take Pyron down. Magical beings I can see standing a chance. I just don't see Pyron being very vulnerable to physical attacks (OS's claw) or normal energy cannons. He is made of solar energy, after all.
Keep in mind Omega Supreme can TRANSFORM into a huge outer space flying rocket, which can and does blast while flying. He is definately capable of battling in space as well as on land.
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
As an FYI, I don't see Pyron heating himself up to a point where he slags the arena. He could make himself hot enough to incinerate something he's touching a'la the Human Torch, but in the sake of staying a "SHW" and not devouring the arena, he's not going to be demolishing everything in the battlefield at once.
Out of curiosity, is that little clear "red pane" on top of OS as impervious as the rest of him? I'm going to say probably not. Also, he's not immune to nuclear-level force and a living sun is concentrated nuclear force (as a sun is essentially a perpetual nuclear reaction).
So you believe Sunboy to be powerful enough to melt Omega Surpeme? Graviton and Magneto to be powerful enough to throw and bounce around and manipulate Omega Supreme? Personally, Id say No, and Im using the 3 character you used as a power base for Pyron in the beginning.
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Btw, I think I made this pretty evident but just to be official..
Vote: Pyron
(And on a sidenote, why do I think if this was, say, Magneto or even anyone else who was phrased as an absolute master of vast gravitational and magnetic forces vs. a robot composed of metal and electrical circuitry there wouldn't be this much debate?)
Calling Omega Surpeme simply "a robot" makes me wonder if you know how MASSIVELY POWERFUL the character really is, RK.
:p :laugh:
Come on all, Omega Surpeme is only down by 4 votes, lets see some MEGA UBER UNREAL Transformer Support here Kids.
Omega Supreme - 2 votes
Pyron (at SHW level, not the Power of a Sun, no has the gravity and heat of a Star) - 6 votes
:)
I'm voting Omega Supreme here. I've seen the Darkstalkers anime (still recovering from how awful it was!) and let me say that fighting at SHW level, there is no way in spork that Pyron can defeat OS. Omega Supreme has taken on Menasor, Devestator, Bruticus AND Predaking (who may be most dangerous of all the combiners!) together and won. He has stood up to a barrage from Galvatron and the Sweeps without his stride even being broken. He has withstood the heat of re-entry while fighting off Bruticus. Omega Supreme is the toughest being in all of the Transformers series, and is equally capable of dishing it out from his main cannon and chin turret.
If it weren't for his nutty code of honour, could Pyron win this. Spork yeah, he is a cosmic being after all. But he's fighting by DTM's rules here, and considering that none of the DS were scorched when they hit him, I don't think OS is going to have to worry about that when Pyron fights at SHW level. He cops a barrage from the chin turret and main cannon, before it comes to close quarters, and Pyron is crushed in OS' claw.
And for the last time, Pyron is NOT going to Telefrag OS, he wouldn't resort to that! Heck, him telefragging the pilots of the mecha is pushing the rules to him!
deadalus13
03/31/2005, 02:38
First off, I am of the opinion that Pyron never should have been in the TOC. Any character that has to be forced to fight below his normal level to qualify for a TOC, shouldn't be in the TOC.
That being said, if Pyron is being forced to be at the level of Magneto, Graviton, a Sunboy, then I will vote for OS. As to whether or not there would be this much debate if it was Magneto fighting a robot, if it was this robot than yah, there would be. Magneto needed to amplify his powers to lift a submarine and OS weighs a lot more than a submarine. Having power over magnetism or gravity can be incredibly relative. I can magnetically charge a comb and use it to pick up a needle. That is magnetism. Magneto uses magnetism to exert a force on an object. The amount of the force he can exert has limits. Graviton has some control over gravity. Gravity can shred a planet in seconds or slowly pull a leaf to the ground, depending on the amount of force. Graviton is somewhere between these two examples. I believe that OS can exert enough force to overcome any magnetic or gravitic control exerted over him if Pyron is operating at the levels of Magneto and Graviton.
Originally posted by DTM
So you believe Sunboy to be powerful enough to melt Omega Surpeme? Graviton and Magneto to be powerful enough to throw and bounce around and manipulate Omega Supreme? Personally, Id say No, and Im using the 3 character you used as a power base for Pyron in the beginning.
So Omega Supreme is a SHW and yet is totally impervious to assault from 2 other SHW's one of which has a power that is tremendously effective against machines. Two comic book SHW's in fact a genre that is probably more powerful than cartoons (but not defiently). For that matter if I'm not mistaken Sunboy can generate heat as hot as a sun, earlier you claimed anything that could get that hot would ruin anyone in the arena even if the source were only mansized, and yet Omega Supreme is immune to direct exposure to such heat, but still a SHW?
Rokk_Krinn
03/31/2005, 10:07
Originally posted by DTM
So you believe Sunboy to be powerful enough to melt Omega Surpeme? Graviton and Magneto to be powerful enough to throw and bounce around and manipulate Omega Supreme? Personally, Id say No, and Im using the 3 character you used as a power base for Pyron in the beginning.
Lesse, while the comic characters were meant as descriptions of the types of powers Pyron has - not settings of power-levels - if you want, to use that as the baseline, that's fine. We can do that, so here we go..
*Yes, I do believe Sunboy could penetrate OS's armour. We've seen Sunboy heat up and concentrate his power enough to slag at least a small hole in some of the DCU's hardest metals. He may not actually melt all of OS, but guess what? All that's needed is one teeny-tiny hole to expose OS's "innards" and at that point, you can definitely say there's no magnetic shielding.
*You keep talking about Magneto's powers as if all he does is lift and throw things. If we're talking "lifting" strength, Cosmic Boy might be a better comparison, but fine we'll go with Magneto. Magneto's EM control is far more than just "TK of metal". That includes force-fields (which we _have_ seen Pyron do and against a plasma attack those should be pretty decent) and - more importantly here - disruption of electrical systems. OS is shielded against an EMP or such, I agree but not a concentrated and focused magnetic beam of that level of intensity. Heck, for that matter, Pyron could conceivably "reverse polarity" on OS's firing ports. 99% of the time in comics, energy weapons require some sort of magnetic field to shape or focus them...that's entirely within "Magneto's" powers to disrupt.
*Same deal here with Graviton. Gravity powers can do more than just "make someone feel too heavy to move" or "float" - concentrated crushing attacks on vulnerable areas (such as the circuits exposed by melting through or, heck, manipulating the gravity down the firing ports of OS's weapons. For that matter, if Pyron _only_ uses the "make things heavy" deal like you seem to have him doing, then you need to acknowledge it would at _least_ slow down OS a bit which would make his reactions and firing times decrease.
*Which leads to the teleportation skills - hard to draw a bead on someone (no matter how accurate you are) that can port out of the way of the blast.
*Do I think OS is just a robot? Yes. That doesn't mean I don't think OS is powerful but in the end what are Transformers? "ROBOTS in disguise." Robots is a catch-all term, DTM, and you're smart enough to know it covers a wide range of power levels.
Wow...I haven't seen a match so heated since the Emperor battle or the Date vs. Boba Fett. GO OS!
For the record, my basis on Pyron comes from people have said about him in the threads and in the nomination thread. I was against Pyron being in the TOC for this reason (that everyone had different levels of him in their head). I have no idea who this guy is, I am just using what people have said (which is why we have bios and discussion).
Rokk, you have to admit that SOME people voting for Pyron have put him on levels that he doesn't belong on in the SHW TOC. Not all, some. And there is an inconsistent view of this character because some view him as Godlike, others view him as not so much.
Rokk_Krinn
03/31/2005, 10:36
Originally posted by deadalus13
Magneto needed to amplify his powers to lift a submarine and OS weighs a lot more than a submarine.
Lesse, when Magneto first sank the fully loaded submarine his powers weren't amplified. When he raised it years later, his powers weren't amplified that I can remember (he didn't seem to use Cortez powers in any of those panels and Fabian's powers were short-term). When he dismantles non-ceramic Sentinels with a wave of his hand, non-amplified. Manipulating adamantium? Non-amplified. Raised the remains of Asteroid-M (which is far bigger than a submarine and even OS)? Non-amplified. There are many instances of non-amplified Magneto moving some massive or difficult materials without much effort.
As for how much it would take to slow down or weigh down OS, think of it this way: it only takes 5-10 lbs of resistive force to keep a strong grown man underwater. If the magnetics and gravity are applied with "leverage" (i.e.: in the right spots) they should be more than capable of causing havoc for OS.
As for the "relative" term, let's be honest - the relative term here is "super-heroic powers" not magnetizing a comb. You couldn't raise an asteroid with a comb either, but the characters this is based on can do such things. Strength is relative too - you probably couldn't punch through a brick wall in one swing, so I'm guessing OS can't really pulverize a steel cube in one blow, right? :) Let's use these powers at the "relative" level they're at instead of "human-sized levels". ;)
Originally posted by Rando
So Omega Supreme is a SHW and yet is totally impervious to assault from 2 other SHW's one of which has a power that is tremendously effective against machines. Two comic book SHW's in fact a genre that is probably more powerful than cartoons (but not defiently). For that matter if I'm not mistaken Sunboy can generate heat as hot as a sun, earlier you claimed anything that could get that hot would ruin anyone in the arena even if the source were only mansized, and yet Omega Supreme is immune to direct exposure to such heat, but still a SHW?
Move over MSU, Im also declaring myself Randos Arch Enemy, what color base are we using? :)
Im not saying OS would be totally immune to Magneto and Graviton, I am saying hes powerful enough to actively resist their manipulations (with effort from all combatants) if such tactics were taken.
Im not saying OS is going to laugh it off, far from it, but I think his size, weight and physical strength are enough for him to resist attacks from Magneto and Graviton.
If Sunboy can actually generate THE HEAT OF A SUN (which is news to me), then that is a Cosmic Being level attack (as the Sun is one of the most powerful Celestial Bodies in the Universe) and Sunboy would not be able to use his powers to THAT degree here in this SHW TOC.
First off, I am of the opinion that Pyron never should have been in the TOC. Any character that has to be forced to fight below his normal level to qualify for a TOC, shouldn't be in the TOC.
I have to say I strongly agree with this post, because lets face it, MSU is right. How many posters have supported Pyron because hes AS POWERFUL AS A SUN, which isnt so under the SHW TOC rules. Lets all try and keep Pyrons powers in perspective people.
Well, its 6 votes to 4, Pyron leads Omega Supreme by 2 votes. So since this is the final match of the Round, and the voting is so close, well have to wait until tomorrow to start The Final Four.
Grinner, care to randomize some numbers for me when you can?
Only 10 votes in this match all, I know weve got more TOC fans out there, so lets hear from you hear, and any other Round 3 match. Youre only got a single day more to cast your votes and speak your minds.
Originally posted by DTM
Move over MSU, Im also declaring myself Randos Arch Enemy, what color base are we using? :)
I don't think plaid has been taken yet. Plaid or checks is what I am petitioning for. Nothing invokes the fear like a Plaid AE base.
Uh oh DTM, unless we pull a Legacy Batman, we're gonna be arch-enemies too! :eek:
You get Rando's vet, I'll take his Experienced version. You are the master of the TOC, while I merely participate. :laugh:
Rando's rookie is still up for grabs...Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Originally posted by DTM
because lets face it, MSU is right.
No matter what the reasoning is, I love it when people say this! :laugh: :grin: :p :classic:
deadalus13
03/31/2005, 14:32
"it only takes 5-10 lbs of resistive force to keep a strong grown man underwater."
And yet an average man can walk through a couple hundred pounds of resistance. Keeping a man under water is pretty easy because the man has very little leverage and can't apply much force in the direction needed. Plus it is not 5-10 pounds of resistive force that keeps him under water, it is 5-10 pounds of resistive force combined with the force of gravity acting on the weight of a full grown man.
"As for the "relative" term, let's be honest - the relative term here is "super-heroic powers" not magnetizing a comb. You couldn't raise an asteroid with a comb either, but the characters this is based on can do such things."
Yes, Magneto has much more power than what it takes to magnetize a comb. He can move large objects with his magnetism and manipulate objects in ways that shouldn't be possible. But he still has limits on how great of a force he can exert at one time. Do you realize the amount of force that OS would have to generate to allow something of his mass to escape from the gravity well of an average sized planet? And people are making an assumption that OS is made out of some kind of metal that is affected by magnetism. We have no way of knowing that. He is composed of a high tech material from a technologically advanced society. Comics equate metal with the ability to be effected by magnetism which is not a truism.
As for the ability to create the heat of the sun. This should not necessarily put someone in the cosmic being class. The human torch can create that kind of heat with his nova blast and he is not even a SHW. The heat is not the most dangerous part of the sun anyway. The surface temperature is only about 5000 degrees C, although the interior temperatures reach over one million degrees. The forces of the sun's gravity would kill you before the heat had a chance to. And the radiation would kill you before you got close enough to sustain damage from either the heat or the gravity.
Rokk_Krinn
03/31/2005, 15:58
Well, I have to agree with you on what makes a sun dangerous but those are just good reasons to vote for Pyron. :)
You'll note that I did mention that applying "leverage" with his powers would be what lets Pyron cause problems for OS.
As for Pyron affecting OS with magnetism - EM force is one of the fundamental forces of the universe and can effect things whether they're "magnetic metals" or not (it just has easier time on said metals) but more importantly, when people are talking about Pyron causing trouble for OS with magnetics they're not just talking about the metal manipulations, but also things like wrecking havoc on OS's electrical systems (which he does have as a lot of Transformer weaponry is based on attacking that...in fact, some of the Transformer weapons are based on using _magnetic force_ on opponents) or the magnetic fields he would need for some of his powers.
Originally posted by MSU
I don't think plaid has been taken yet. Plaid or checks is what I am petitioning for. Nothing invokes the fear like a Plaid AE base.
Uh oh DTM, unless we pull a Legacy Batman, we're gonna be arch-enemies too! :eek:
You get Rando's vet, I'll take his Experienced version. You are the master of the TOC, while I merely participate. :laugh:
Rando's rookie is still up for grabs...Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I thought I was a big fig. and you guys were the MSU Lantern Corp.
What, dont you mean the DTM Lantern Corp??? :)
As for the ability to create the heat of the sun. This should not necessarily put someone in the cosmic being class. The human torch can create that kind of heat with his nova blast and he is not even a SHW. The heat is not the most dangerous part of the sun anyway. The surface temperature is only about 5000 degrees C, although the interior temperatures reach over one million degrees. The forces of the sun's gravity would kill you before the heat had a chance to. And the radiation would kill you before you got close enough to sustain damage from either the heat or the gravity.
Although keep in mind once the Torch goes Nova hes OUT of the fight. People are saying Pyron can generate this type of heat likes its nothing to him. Thats the difference, not can Character X do it, but how easily can Character X do it.
And yes of course the Gravity of a sun would rip a world apart, so Pyron here CANNOT have the powers of a living sun, or even remotely close, and I do hope the power level were all putting Pyron in here in the SHW TOC is at a SHW level.
Maniac_nmt
04/01/2005, 08:42
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Well, I have to agree with you on what makes a sun dangerous but those are just good reasons to vote for Pyron. :)
You'll note that I did mention that applying "leverage" with his powers would be what lets Pyron cause problems for OS.
As for Pyron affecting OS with magnetism - EM force is one of the fundamental forces of the universe and can effect things whether they're "magnetic metals" or not (it just has easier time on said metals) but more importantly, when people are talking about Pyron causing trouble for OS with magnetics they're not just talking about the metal manipulations, but also things like wrecking havoc on OS's electrical systems (which he does have as a lot of Transformer weaponry is based on attacking that...in fact, some of the Transformer weapons are based on using _magnetic force_ on opponents) or the magnetic fields he would need for some of his powers.
None the less, even the highly advanced Transformer 'anti-tech' weapons don't drop each other in a single shot, or even kill them as such weapons would to modern tech.
Omega Supreme is the last line of defence. In the Transformers cartoons, the maxim bigger is better was typically very appropriate. An EM weapon which might hurt Bumblebee, may have had no effect on Optimus (or at least very little effect).
I've got to figure Omega Supreme has at least some defence against such attacks. Count me down for Omega Supreme. He may not be in great shape by the end, but he has no easily exploitable weakness.
If Omega Supreme somehow wins this then there is no way that he is a SHW. He is fighitng a guy who is fully capable of staying out of close combat forever, effectivlly dodgeing his attacks, and attacking him with probably the most effective means of dealing damage to robots possible, on top of that he is a heat based entity meaning Supreme's ranegd attacks will infilict very little damage on him at all (if any). If someone asked me to design a character better able to destroy Omega Supreme then I don't think I could do it, the only thing I could conceivibly add is makeing him intangible.
Well, Pyron is wining right now. But OS is a ranged attacker with his lasers and weapons that shoot of his hands.
Yes, he is shooting lasers at a sentient stellar mass. Laser burn things. He is shooting lasers at a star. Not a good way to inflict damage.
Originally posted by Rando
I thought I was a big fig. and you guys were the MSU Lantern Corp.
I love the sound of that - the MSU Lantern Corp. While my name invokes the color Green (go Spartans this weekend!), I feel that the MSU Lantern Corps should cheapen itself by merely being a knockoff of an existing group. Our color of power shall be (get ready....) - plaid. Nothing scares off villains more than flannel shirts. :)
Lets hope that Rando is not made out of cheap plastic and falls apart everywhere! That would make our job too easy...
DTM, I hereby promote you to the rank of Supreme Overlord, or Captain. Whatever works for you...I am Admiral. Grinner can be First Lieutanant. Maybe if Rokk is nice I will allow him to be cabin boy. :laugh: :laugh:
Originally posted by Rando
Yes, he is shooting lasers at a sentient stellar mass. Laser burn things. He is shooting lasers at a star. Not a good way to inflict damage.
Fine, so lasers don't hurt him. But blowing him up will hurt him with his arm rockets (hand rockets?).
Originally posted by Rando
Yes, he is shooting lasers at a sentient stellar mass. Laser burn things. He is shooting lasers at a star. Not a good way to inflict damage.
Let me ask an honest question because I really dont know the character of Sunboy too well.......is Sunboy immune to laser fire, lets say in the level of power that Omega Supreme can deliver? I know Magneto and Graviton sure arent. Sure they can erect force fields to help block, but OSs powers is MASSIVE, and I dont think such force fields will last for too long.
Pyron here is NOT a star, he is a SHW character with the powers of Magneto/Graviton and Sunboy, and its on THAT basis that I and others here are voting for Omega Supreme to win. Hes NOT fighting a sun, hes fighting Pyron at a SHW level, there is a HUGE difference.
Rokk_Krinn
04/01/2005, 14:49
Originally posted by MSU
Fine, so lasers don't hurt him. But blowing him up will hurt him with his arm rockets (hand rockets?).
Well, even assuming Pyron's going to just stand there and get hit (as opposed to teleporting out of the way), why would an explosion hurt an energy being? The flame and heat of the explosion is obviously pointless - if anything it'd just "fuel" him - while the shockwave would have to get through any force-fields (a'la Magneto/Graviton) he puts up for defense (and, yep, even in the video games he can put up a really nasty field when he "defends").
Guess I don't get Cabin Boy (though, y'know, it usually works out good for the ones in the movies... maybe I shouldn't be too hasty. :) )
Well, looks like this match, and Round 3 in general is over.
Pyron has taken down Omega Supreme, by a single vote, which is a bit of a shame since Im pretty sure at least one vote for Pyron is based on him being A SUN and Having The Powers Of A Star, which as said Many times thus far in this TOC, is not so.
Nonetheless, votes are counted and a winner is chosen. Ill get Round 4 up Right Away.
Rokk_Krinn
04/01/2005, 14:53
Originally posted by DTM
Let me ask an honest question because I really dont know the character of Sunboy too well.......is Sunboy immune to laser fire, lets say in the level of power that Omega Supreme can deliver? I know Magneto and Graviton sure arent. Sure they can erect force fields to help block, but OSs powers is MASSIVE, and I dont think such force fields will last for too long.
Pyron here is NOT a star, he is a SHW character with the powers of Magneto/Graviton and Sunboy, and its on THAT basis that I and others here are voting for Omega Supreme to win. Hes NOT fighting a sun, hes fighting Pyron at a SHW level, there is a HUGE difference.
No, he's a star that has powers on the SHW level. He's still a living star but with power levels in the SHW cateogry (just as, say, Swamp Thing as a SHW would still be a living elemental). Think of Pyron as an elemental of solar forces if that makes it easier. :)
Along those lines, heat and light - the basis of a laser - are probably not the best weapons to use against him, just as a flamethrower is pointless against Johnny Storm. Don't use weapons of which an energy being is composed - it usually doesn't work too well. :)
And, yes, that is keeping him within SHW levels (heck, you see MW people like Iceman with similar set-ups - you wouldn't use a freeze ray on Bobby would you?)
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Guess I don't get Cabin Boy (though, y'know, it usually works out good for the ones in the movies... maybe I shouldn't be too hasty. :) )
Lets see how round 4 goes...there might still be a cabin boy position left on the MSU Lantern Corps if all goes right. :)
Captain DTM, Lieutanant Grinner...put the flannel shirts on...its time for Round 4!
:grin:
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
And, yes, that is keeping him within SHW levels (heck, you see MW people like Iceman with similar set-ups - you wouldn't use a freeze ray on Bobby would you?)
Actually, incasing Bobby in a block of ice ala Mr. Freeze's gun would incap him, and vice-versa to Mr. Freeze (batman has done that many times to him). So yes, if I had a freeze gun, I might use it on Bobby or Mr. Freeze.
Fine Pyron is a living star, BUT he does NOT have the powers of a Star at their level. People have voted for Pyron saying hes got the powers of A STAR, thats not true, if anything he has .001% of the powers of a Star if he hopes to fit in here at all. A Star or Sun is MASSIVELY powerful, even a small fraction of such power could demolish an entire planet with near ease, let alone this sealed 25 mile wide arena.
Again, as mentioned previously, letting a character in this TOC who is capable of MUCH GREATER power and then saying he must "tone it down" was a bad idea. Like letting Galactus in the SHW Comics TOC but he must play nice with the other combatants. Shouldnt have been. I will not hold this against Pyron, though I will not be voting for him as if he were a Living Sun either.
Rokk_Krinn
04/01/2005, 21:38
While I won't get into the debate as to whether or not it's fair to lump all Pyron voters in the "overpowering" category - no more so then saying, oh, all Optimus Prime backers overpower him ;) - I will just point out this could've all been avoided had people not been so "Spoiler Spooked" so I could have just nominated...
GENERAL GRIEVOUS!!!
(Bow before a Surprisingly Cool New Episodes Creation!) :)
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