Marvel/DC Team-Up Tourney?

[Maniac_nmt]

Howdy,

Some of you may remember several of my Marvel/DC Team-Up individual battles. I took a break from them as Another Realm was getting sorely clogged up with vs. battles. However, with the release of a new forum just for this sort of thing. I thought I might see if there was interest in running a tourney based on the idea.

The basic premise for the matches was taken from the old Marvel Team-Up series. Where two heroes would join forces to battle some threat, or often two villains teamed up. Which really lead to where the Spider-man TA came from as he became the one recurring hero, that got teamed up with all manner of people.

What I'm considering, is running a HW/SHW division tourney. Each team must consist of one Marvel, and one DC character. Both must be either heroes, or villains: ie Iron Man and Wonderwoman, or Mongul and Enchantress, but not Superman and Dr. Doom.

Since this is a team battle, I'm lumping what would be HW and SHWs together. As some characters blur the line somewhat, or might make for really fun combinations. No repeats however. That is to say, once Thor is on a team, he cannot be on another team.

I'm looking for nominations, and a vote. Voting:

a) Heroes and villain in one random 32 team bracket
b) Heroes in one 16 team bracket, villains in one 16 team bracket, winner of each bracket faces off for championship
c) Heroes in one 16 team bracket, villains in one 16 team bracket, heroes fight villains every match (ie, no hero vs hero, and no villain vs villain fights).

Teams will be given 45 minutes to prepare for each match. However they will not be allowed to cast spells, put up fields, or alter the terrain/each other in that time (although character which must ramp up may be allowed to do so, ie Bruce Banner has to turn into the Hulk, Nathaniel Atom must turn into Captain Atom, etc).

[DTM]

Be careful if youre always having heros vs villains in TOC, as in comics (where we all get our facts and figures from) the hero wins 99% of the time. Instances like that are comic book fact and will be hard to ignore when proving a case here.

[Rando]

I vote for option b. Are you allowing alternate universe characters? Is Exilies alternate universe? Do you just want one team per realmer or one villian and one hero team per?

[Maniac_nmt]

start with just one team per realmer, if we need to, we'll move to one hero team, and one villian team per realmer.

Characters such as Exiles, Ultimates, are acceptable. No Authority, but other DC spin offs are okay (such as Wildstrom characters).

[Rando]

not to be a nuisance but Authority is in the Wildstorm universe.

[chase_jyd]

Hmmm, perhaps the team of Doom?

Specifically, Brainiac-mind Doomsday, and Dr. Doom

[Maniac_nmt]

well, I guess they are alright then.

[The Red Baron]

Wild Strom eh. The hero
Samaritin
Villian
Dark Seid

[Q99]

I like (A).

Hmm... and I'll think up a team, but it'll take me a bit.

[GoldenAge]

Captain Marvel & Dr. Strange

These two characters have totally different aspects but are interestingly tied together by magic!

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
Teams will be given 45 minutes to prepare for each match. However they will not be allowed to cast spells, put up fields, or alter the terrain/each other in that time

So you're saying that magicians can't cast spells but technicians can create all the gadgets they are able to in 45 minutes? Sounds a bit unfair to me. :ermm:

Is travel to other dimensions or astral projection outlawed as well? How about consultation with other beings/people?

[Q99]

My team: Exile's Mimic and Vera Black from the Justice League Elite.

[Iscariot]

My team- Taskmaster(Marvel), and Prometheus(DC) Both are awesome fighters that have taken on entire teams of superheroes alone.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Iscariot
My team- Taskmaster(Marvel), and Prometheus(DC) Both are awesome fighters that have taken on entire teams of superheroes alone.

Even as a pair do these two rate as HW/SHW characters.

I keep imagining what would happen to them against an Iron Man/Green Lantern team... utter devistation.:rolleyes:

[techdog]

I would like to see Silver Surfer and Power-Girl Team up, what a good mix of range and power.

As for Villians.

Thanos and Deathstoke, man, that team would be cold and killer.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by techdog
I would like to see Silver Surfer and Power-Girl Team up

Ooooh, I like it! Norrin Radd is probably the only Marvel male in existance who could pair up with Power Girl and not be distracted by her big... punches. :cheeky:

[Iscariot]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Even as a pair do these two rate as HW/SHW characters.

I keep imagining what would happen to them against an Iron Man/Green Lantern team... utter devistation.:rolleyes:

I'm assuming you mean devistation for the Ironman/GL team. After all Prometheus has beaten Green lantern.

[Iscariot]

But I gues your right. their not exactly as strong as thanos. I suppose I need to change my team then.

Dormammu (Marvel) and Mordru (DC)

Ph3r teh magic pwnz joo.

[Q99]

Now that's a cosmic and a shw! (Or possibly two Cosmics. Mordru is pretty up there. Hmm... depends on how Fate is called too, I guess)

Specifically, we're looking for a HW (examples: Thing, Power Girl, Captain Marvel Jr., War Machine) paired with a SHW, not just two characters both in that range.

[Maniac_nmt]

Current Teams:

1. Captain Marvel and Dr. Strange
2. Silver Surfer and Power Girl
3. Exiles Mimic and Vera Black

votes on format:

A: 1
B: 1

In regards to building gadgets/spells, nothing that would affect the environment to start.

I want to avoid people trying to use an argument of "Dr. Fate cast a spell so that when his opponents leave their start they turn into jelly beans" or something to that effect.

You may effect yourself, or your equipment in the preperation, but nothing else (such as the Hulk being allowed to 'hulk up').

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
Current Teams:

1. Captain Marvel and Dr. Strange


Wouldn't this be a pairing of SHW/SHW (or Cosmic depending on the version of Dr. Strange)? :)

and to nominate a team...

Validus/Dr. Doom

[Prof. Aragorn]

Option B would probably be a good idea-even amount of heroes and villains.

Now as for a team:

Dracula as the heavyweight
Despero as the superheavyweight

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Iscariot
But I gues your right. their not exactly as strong as thanos. I suppose I need to change my team then.

Dormammu (Marvel) and Mordru (DC)

Ph3r teh magic pwnz joo.

HOLY CARP!!!!!!! Not even Dr. Strange couldn't stand up against such a team... However, in the past it was deemed that Dormmamu was a cosmic being... perhaps too powerful for these vs. threads?

[JPV>BW]

I know this doesnt quite fit the format for this but...

Darkseid and Orion would make an interesting team

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Wouldn't this be a pairing of SHW/SHW (or Cosmic depending on the version of Dr. Strange)? :)

and to nominate a team...

Validus/Dr. Doom

Dr. Strange kinda bridges the gap between HW and SHW. I'd really like to stick with Strange. I've always wanted to see these two and the wizard Shazam meet to battle evil. But if Maniac_nmt wants me to change my nominations I will.

[DTM]

Ill throw my hat in for Team Android: Vision (HW), Amazo (SHW) - newer Main 7 JLA if allowed, otherwise the original 5 JLA is cool too. :)

[GoldenAge]

Ouch... Nice team! Along with The Human Torch I've always loved both of those androids.

Oh, if I can't have Dr. Strange, I'd like to reserve The Scarlet Witch or Captain Mar-Vel. Thanks.;)

[Iscariot]

Originally posted by Q99
Now that's a cosmic and a shw! (Or possibly two Cosmics. Mordru is pretty up there. Hmm... depends on how Fate is called too, I guess)

Specifically, we're looking for a HW (examples: Thing, Power Girl, Captain Marvel Jr., War Machine) paired with a SHW, not just two characters both in that range.

awww carp, I messed up again. :disappoin

[Maniac_nmt]

I will toss in a 5th hero team of Iron Man and Alan Scott (Sentinel) and 3rd villian team of Black Adam and Crimson Dynamo.

modified team list:

Heros:
1. Captain Marvel and Captain Mar-Vel
2. Vision and Amazo
3. Silver Surfer and Power Girl
4. Exiles Mimic and Vera Black
5. Green Lantern (Alan Scott) and Iron Man

Villian:

1. Vallidus and Dr. Doom
2. Dracula and Despero
3. Black Adam and Crimson Dynamo

Votes:
a: 1
b: 2

If you gave me a hero team, I will take a villian team nomination as well, and if you gave me a villian team, I will take a hero nomination from you.


I will begin working up a list of battlefields for you all to peruse over the next few days.

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by Q99
Now that's a cosmic and a shw! (Or possibly two Cosmics. Mordru is pretty up there. Hmm... depends on how Fate is called too, I guess)

Specifically, we're looking for a HW (examples: Thing, Power Girl, Captain Marvel Jr., War Machine) paired with a SHW, not just two characters both in that range.

I would accept Mordu as a SHW. Fate has beaten him twice, and both times Fate was still a total rookie in the use of his powers.

I can certainly see Dr. Strange or say Thor (simply do to his high magic immunity, and his arch enemy is a sorcerer of considerable power), along with Dr. Fate, being able to give him a run for his money.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
I would accept Mordu as a SHW. Fate has beaten him twice, and both times Fate was still a total rookie in the use of his powers.


Depends on the version of Mordru though as if it's the 30th Century version that mops the floor with the whole friggin' Legion of Super-Heroes I'd say he's more than SHW. :)

By the way, not to sound nitpicky but isn't Amazo/Vision a Villain/Hero combination?

As for a Hero Nomination - being I did a villain one already - I'll nominate Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) & Scarlet Witch.

[Q99]

By the way, not to sound nitpicky but isn't Amazo/Vision a Villain/Hero combination?


Unless he uses the Amazo from "Another Nail", which has the brain of Oliver Queen.

[Q99]

Or, come to think of it, the reprogrammed Amazo from 'Rock of Ages' (which would be the 7 hero version, and the Queen one would be the 5 hero version).

[Rokk_Krinn]

Wouldn't those fall under "What If" and alternate timeline versions though?

[Q99]

Yea, but aren't we allowing those?

[GoldenAge]

Rokk's got ya. Drop the androids and step away...

[GoldenAge]

Actually Maniac_nmt I'd prefer the Captain Marvel/Scarlet Witch team... if that's okay with you.

[DTM]

By the way, not to sound nitpicky but isn't Amazo/Vision a Villain/Hero combination?

Youre right, I thought of that at work actually.

OK, I like Amazo, so lets see.....whats a good robot/android from the dark side.....and its gotta be from Marvel huh.......hmmmmmm........maybe Nimrod? Too powerful (though he did lose to Dr. Doom in my first TOC so maybe not?)

Uh, any help?

[Rokk_Krinn]

There's the Awesome Android - how much more Android can you get than that? :) - or the alchemical android (construct), Dragon Man.

Someone want to have the heart to tell Prof. A that Marvel's Dracula may not be HW category? :) I mean, in his old "Tomb of Dracula" days he got routinely schooled by things in LW-MW category (depending on story needs). :) He'd rant about how he was the living evil and then *flash* Dr. Sun would fry him. :)

[Maniac_nmt]

Marvel Villianous androids/robots/cyborgs that I can think of off the top of my head:

Super Adaptoid (SHW)
Ultron (SHW)
Aleema (SHW)
Albert (possibly a MW)
Doombots (HW)
Midknight (HW) - Moon Knights former sidekick rebuilt by one of comics zillion and one secret societies
Ultimo (SHW)
Sir Mac-henery (sic?, Machine Man when displaced into Mogan Le Fay's fantasy world, don't know machine man enough to state a power level)
Zero Tolerance Sentinels (HW)
New Human Torch/Tara (Invaders, planted on the team by the Red Skull, MW but possibly low end HW, as she punches through an oil tanker and burns hot enough to begin plan to melt ice caps)
Sentient Iron Man Armor (HW, for a brief period Iron Man's armor was possessed by an Ultron, murdered villians and attempted to murder Tony)

Oh, and Rokk, GoldenAge does have previous claim to Scarlet Witch. So in accordance with his request I will change his hero team to Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch. I will need someone else for your Dr. Fate team.

She's acceptable up untill prior to Avengers Disassembled. As that SW is pretty clearly well into or above SHW material with the ability to create whole alien armadas at a whim.

[Slade Wilson]

ult thor and the legion of superheros they could all use ultimates team ability!

[Rokk_Krinn]

Bah, must be handy getting to reserve oodles of characters until you decide which you want. *jk* :)

Seriously though, I guess for now I'll replace Wanda with Clea (but I may switch as I'm bleary-eyed and can't come up with someone more preferable).

[Rando]

Originally posted by DTM
By the way, not to sound nitpicky but isn't Amazo/Vision a Villain/Hero combination?

Youre right, I thought of that at work actually.

OK, I like Amazo, so lets see.....whats a good robot/android from the dark side.....and its gotta be from Marvel huh.......hmmmmmm........maybe Nimrod? Too powerful (though he did lose to Dr. Doom in my first TOC so maybe not?)

Uh, any help?

How about the guy you had him fight: Ultron.

[Rando]

anyway put me down for:

Adam Warlock and The Martian Manhunter.

[DTM]

Well, I was thinking of that, but I do like Amazo, and would like to keep him if I can.

OK, Ill change my vote to Metallo (HW), Ultron (SHW), if thats alright.

[Rando]

Why does it matter? You can use 2 SHW's can't you (you had sure better be able to if Despero/Dracula is a team).

[DTM]

Sheesh, just thought of something. Hope we all wont be SHW Comic Battles exhausted after this TOC, as my Final TOC (which is a SHW Comic TOC Part 2) should be coming up just as this is ending. :eek: :ermm: :noid:

[SyxxPac]

I nominate Plastic Man and Thor as a team

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Rando
Why does it matter? You can use 2 SHW's can't you (you had sure better be able to if Despero/Dracula is a team).

SHW/HW

And Marvel Dracula is definitely not a SHW - like I said earlier, he barely even qualifies as a HW (and a lot of times he's a MW).

[Rando]

Do what? Dracula manhandled Colossus like he was a toy, when they were fighting Colossus couldn't even hurt him while Dracula was beating him like he owed him money. And it isn't like Marvel Dracula is just some invulnerable super-strong trainwreck either he has a host of other magical and mental abilties on top of that.

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by Rando
Do what? Dracula manhandled Colossus like he was a toy, when they were fighting Colossus couldn't even hurt him while Dracula was beating him like he owed him money. And it isn't like Marvel Dracula is just some invulnerable super-strong trainwreck either he has a host of other magical and mental abilties on top of that.

I personally don't have a problem with Dracula as a HW. A lot of SHWs would turn him into kimchee in nothing flat...

Captain Marvel, Black Adam, Thor, Superman, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange, Alan Scott, Mimic (since he copies Cyclops' optic blasts, and they are solar powered)etc....

Not to mention, multi faceted HWs like Crimson Dynamo or Iron Man (both of whom could fire synthesized solar radiation blasts, and all but waste him in one shot), Scarlet Witch could seriously hurt him, Vision (his ranged attack is solar based, and his powers themselves are charged by the sun), Zero Tolerance Sentinels (which can disable or counter most 'innate' special abilities).

If deemed in-appropriate by enough people however, I will remove him.

[Maniac_nmt]

As promised, here are two teaser terrains for this tourney:

JSA Sky rise

After the Brownstone was destroyed, Lex Luthor comissioned a sky-scrapper to be built as the JSA's new headquarters. Lower floors contain the JSA museum. Which show cases statues and memorabila from their long and glorious history. Upper floors contain the various living quarters, meeting room, infirmary and so forth. A large, unbreachable field has descended preventing the contestants from leaving the arena. It cordons off the surrounding street, and the building itself.


Thanagarian Battleship

This ship of the line was recently seen prowling the former Rann system. Large, open areas are spread between the smaller crew quarters and other various rooms. Designed for a flying race, it has surprising room for aerial maneuverability in the connecting corridors. Due to the intense radiation from the Supernova in system, the ships walls have been upgraded to be unbreachable, and proof against any move to enter or leave the ship.

[michiganj24]

Well for my tag team I will go with Hyperion and although I would like to vote bring someone aboard from my fave team SS I cant really think of anyone powerful enough to really pose a threat so I will choos ZOOM as his partner.

[Q99]

Old, from the future but uses the speedforce Zoom (HW) or New, guy who snapped from the present who uses time dialation Zoom (SHW)?


(Difference being, old Zoom had little in the way of speed tricks and was 'only' as fast as Barry or Jay Garrick, new one makes speed-god Wally look slow)

[SyxxPac]

How about a villian team of The General and Omega Red.

[Prof. Aragorn]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Someone want to have the heart to tell Prof. A that Marvel's Dracula may not be HW category? :) I mean, in his old "Tomb of Dracula" days he got routinely schooled by things in LW-MW category (depending on story needs). :) He'd rant about how he was the living evil and then *flash* Dr. Sun would fry him. :)

Keep in mind though, Dracula was able to wipe out a vampire and human-killing plague with a storming torrent while succumbing to said plague. He's about as strong as Spider-man and he's confronted the Surfer before as well as mind controlled Thor (I'm not sure, but I believe he has).

While yeah, he's a bit of arrogant, and he'll mostly lose even though it's his comic, with a mentalist beat stick like Despero carrying him through the tag-team does stand a chance.

Now as for a hero team:

The Thing as the heavyweight
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) as the superheavyweight

There's going to be a lot of boxing in their matches . . .

[supermangl1]

I'll jump in this contest and add a couple of teams.

Heroes:
Kyle Rayner Green Lantern (SHW)
Captain Britain (HW)

Villians:
Ultraman (SHW)
The Wrecker (HW)

[The Red Baron]

Samaritian SHW from astro city and Cosmic Spiderman SHW

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by The Red Baron
Samaritian SHW from astro city and Cosmic Spiderman SHW

Sorry, Cosmic Spiderman is much to powerful for this tourney. With the ability to instantly alter the molecular structure of any substance, no matter what size without having to know the chemical composition of the transmuted to substance (ie, could create kryptonite by simply thinking the terrain should be kryptonite and it automatically becomes so), no known upper speed on flight, strength, or durability, cosmic awareness, mega powerful energy blasts, etc. He could probabbly take on most of the teams in one go by himself. At least no upper limits to his power were noted in the storyline.

Anyways,

Team List:

Heros:

1. Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch
2. Kyle Rayner and Captain Britain
3. Silver Surfer and Power Girl
4. Exiles Mimic and Vera Black
5. Green Lantern (Alan Scott) and Iron Man
6. Adam Warlock and The Martian Manhunter
7. Thor and Plastic Man
8. Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) and Clea

Villian:

1. Vallidus and Dr. Doom
2. Dracula and Despero
3. Black Adam and Crimson Dynamo
4. Ultron and Metallo
5. Hyperion and Zoom
6. The General and Omega Red
7. Ultraman and the Wrecker


I need opinions on Plastic Man and Zoom. If Zoom is on par with Jay Garrick, that is acceptable. If not, I'll need a new choice. Also, I am not overly familiar with the full extent of Plastic Man's powers. Recent talk about him makes me worry there is no real way to defeat him. Can he beaten by psychics? Magic? Energy based attacks (ie a neural disruptor, or high powered electrical shock)?

Please note, that I will accept Hyperion as a villian, since the Squadron Supreme was typically used to fight the Avengers, under the mind control of some villian.

[SyxxPac]

Plastic Man Special Powers/Abilites (quoted from the DC Encylopedia) Cable of stretching every aton in his body into any shape he wishes. He is seemingly inbreakable and his shape-changing is limited only by his overactive imagination; also has a mercurial sense of humor.

He was once reduced to atoms when sent back to the Obsidian age but was able to reassemble himself, but it took millennia. I wouldn't consider him that powerful since probably a powerful enough blast could possably blow him to pieces and it would take a while for him to get himself back together.

[GoldenAge]

Plas is generally immune to psychic attacks due to the chaotic nature of his mental and physical make-up. Though a strong willed person with a great deal of presence could probably convince him to do something... or maybe cow him.

Magic would work fine against him and might be the best way to take him out.

He can be temporarily taken down by various energy based attacks, but as often as he's blasted to pudding by electricity he's joked his way around it. While his vulnerability is usually dependent on the writer... I believe a better explanation is that Plas' reactions to attacks mostly depends on what Plastic Man actually thinks should happen. While he's powerful enough to be a top line SHW, he tends to react appropriately to attacks. An energy blast will reduce him to a jelly mound... but then he'll pop his head up and make a joke about it and 'POP' he's back to normal. Did the attack really work or was his physical reaction to the attack stimulus totally psychosomatic? The world may never know... one, towhooo, thrrree... CRUNCH: Three.

The only tried and true way to damage Plas is to douse him with Acetone (Methyl Ethyl Ketone) causing his to dissolve.

However, when everything's on the line he shrugs off attacks from the likes of Fernus! He's one bad (and cool) dude!!!:cool:

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
I need opinions on Plastic Man and Zoom. If Zoom is on par with Jay Garrick, that is acceptable.

I think you're underestimating Jay a bit.:rolleyes:

[The Red Baron]

Samaritian SHW from astro city and Dr. Strange SHW

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by The Red Baron
Samaritian SHW from astro city and Dr. Strange SHW

Can't have two SHW's on a team.

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
I think you're underestimating Jay a bit.:rolleyes:

No, not really. I think Jay is a much better Flash then Wally. However, he is not prone to lending out the 'Speed Force'. Making his team all light speed movers and shakers, capable of replicating all of Wally's "stunts". He's also the slowest of all the Flashes, and has more or less admitted so.

Skill, grit, courage, tenacity are all better then Wally (at least in my opinion).

He just doesn't have the goofball match breaking antics often attributed to Wally.

Although, admittedly, Barry is my favorite of them all. However, that's probably because I used to watch the Flash TV show.

Thus, if the Zoom in question is more analagous to Jay, then I personally have no problem. If not, and we'll be subject to no end of 'he steals everyones speed and super light speed punches them into the atmosphere and you can't do anything to him, because he's a 'god' and none of his defeats count cause he has the speedforce' (in addition to another mega powerful character), I'd just assume pass.

If the more knowledgable DC fans okay Plas and Zoom, then they are fine.

[The Red Baron]

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
will it ever end!
Fine here
Samaritian SHW from astro city and She Hulk HW
and if you need some villians
Dark Sied SHW and Diablo HW

[Rokk_Krinn]

The old version of Zoom is roughly equal to Barry. Which means he still travels just short of lightspeed and can do all sorts of nasty vibrational tricks. I would rate Zoom as a SHW - he doesn't have all of the Speed Force tricks that Wally does but you're still looking at a bunch of "He moves faster than any of the other people in the tournament can react and vibrates his hand through their brain (y'know, being he's a villain and doesn't restrict himself like Wally does)."-arguements.

[Q99]

I don't think Old Zoom did as many tricks as Barry, (since Barry was the scientist and spent a lot of time developing thing), he just made up for it by being overall as fast and good in a direct fight and more ruthless. And when he was posing as Barry and fought Jay (and Max and Johnny Quick, who weren't as fast although Max has some good tricks), their speed wasn't too different, it's just Zoom was stronger and had greater endurance on top of his moderate edge. Of course, both Zoom and Barry were from before stealing speed became common, so there's none of that. Plus like most speedsters, he can be taken by surprise if he doesn't see something coming.


New Zoom makes Wally who's faster than Barry look like he's standing still. And unlike most other speedsters, he's naturally spead up, he doesn't even really slow down when interacting with people at normal speed (he slows down partially but from his perspective more 'talks slow' and the like). So he's even a high-end SHW.

[Q99]

I'm trying to think of a villain team involving the Wildstorm guys, but I've having trouble. I have like 10 Wildstorm universe trades and their villains really don't last too long (re-occuring villains: Two. Gamorra, Shifting Albion.).

[DTM]

Did anyone pick Superman yet?

If not Ill take as my hero team, Superman (SHW) and Wonder Girl (HW) - Donna Troy of course.

[michiganj24]

I have decided to change Zoom as that i sthe current one(the other was professor Zoom) and realize he is probably at leats SHW level so i will instead switch over to one i was consedring going with first, the only suicide squadder who could compete here Lashina aka The Duchess

[SyxxPac]

"Superman and Wonder Girl" --- Doesn't one of these have to be Marvel?

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think Old Zoom did as many tricks as Barry, (since Barry was the scientist and spent a lot of time developing thing), he just made up for it by being overall as fast and good in a direct fight and more ruthless. And when he was posing as Barry and fought Jay (and Max and Johnny Quick, who weren't as fast although Max has some good tricks), their speed wasn't too different, it's just Zoom was stronger and had greater endurance on top of his moderate edge. Of course, both Zoom and Barry were from before stealing speed became common, so there's none of that. Plus like most speedsters, he can be taken by surprise if he doesn't see something coming.


The old Zoom definitely had a fair number of tricks up his sleeve. He was a professor himself and came from the future, so he was potentially more versed in science than Barry (just maybe not as naturally gifted). We'd seen him do things like vibrate his hands through someone's skull enough times that I would venture he would have no qualms doing it in a ToC. As for speed, he was fast enough to masquerade as Barry in "Return of Barry Allan" - he was absolutely blowing through Jay, Johnny, Jesse and Wally. That's what necessitated Wally breaking his mental barriers to finally get up to Flash-speeds...they were getting massacred prior to that (and it still wasn't the easiest win even after Wally got up to traditional Flash speeds). I would say even old Zoom is SHW material and potentially the deadliest combatant in this tournament.

[Rando]

Well if we are doing two teams now then make my villian team:

Onimar Synn and Amora the Enchantress

[DTM]

"Superman and Wonder Girl" --- Doesn't one of these have to be Marvel?

Sheesh, I am just not getting how to pick a team properly here. :)

OK, Ill go Superman (SHW) and Thing (HW)

[The Red Baron]

thats funny dtm because my team and you team are almost the same.

[malreux]

If this is still open, I could do a villain team Nemesis Kid (Legion Baddy)(HW) and Nimrod (SHW). I know there was some discussion of Nimrod power level earlier, but couldn't figure out if it was resolved so let me know if this doesnt work. For Heros, how about Pre-reboot Rokk Krin (SHW) and Vance Astrovik(HW)

[Maniac_nmt]

New Team List:
Heros:

1. Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch
2. Kyle Rayner and Captain Britain
3. Silver Surfer and Power Girl
4. Exiles Mimic and Vera Black
5. Green Lantern (Alan Scott) and Iron Man
6. Adam Warlock and The Martian Manhunter
7. Thor and Plastic Man
8. Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) and Clea
9. Samaritain and She Hulk
10. Superman and Thing
11. Rokk Krin and Vance Astrovik

Villian:

1. Vallidus and Dr. Doom
2. Dracula and Despero
3. Black Adam and Crimson Dynamo
4. Ultron and Metallo
5. Hyperion and Lashina aka The Duchess
6. The General and Omega Red
7. Ultraman and the Wrecker
8. Darkseid and Diablo
9. Onimar Synn and Amora the Enchantress
10. Nemesis Kid and Nimrod


Almost there.

[GoldenAge]

Allow me to add some bad guys to the list:

We'll call this team-up the 'Ring-a-ding-dings"
Sinestro and Temugin (son of The Mandarin - Heir to the Rings of Power)

http://spider-bob.com/villains/dc/Sinestro.htm
http://www.leaderslair.com/marvelvillains/temugin.html

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
11. Rokk Krin and Vance Astrovik
1. Vallidus and Dr. Doom


Psst - feel free to throw a wet noodle at me for being nitpicky but Validus has only one "L" and Krinn has two "N's". :) (Yep, I know Mal had only one and it's not your fault but it was easier to just use your list :) ).

[deadalus13]

Here is my villain nomination:

Infernus (DC SHW) + Apocalypse (Marvel HW)

I will think of a hero nomination, but a lot of my picks are already taken.

[malreux]

Ok, ouch. In my defense, I was "cleaning out my bin" at work when I wrote that. I should also clarify that by pre-reboot, I mean from JUST before the reboot uh, I think before last. He needs a hazardous amplifier more or less to use his magnetic powers, but he IS the Time Trapper

[DTM]

Originally posted by deadalus13
Here is my villain nomination:

Infernus (DC SHW) + Apocalypse (Marvel HW)

I will think of a hero nomination, but a lot of my picks are already taken.

If by Infernus you mean Martian Manhunter to the Nth degree, the same one who took on the core JLA team relatively easily.....OUCH

Would he REALLY be considered only a SHW? Without MM inside him trying to break free from within, I dont see any team here being able to handle him.

And I just looked at your HW, Apocalpyse.....OUCH again. Would he be more of a SHW level character?

[Rokk_Krinn]

I have to back DTM a bit on the Infernus question. He blitzed Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, etc. so he's a physical powerhouse. He's pretty much immune to most mental attacks but is able to attack on that relam. He has no weakness. He just doesn't sit well in this type of tournament.

(And, yep, considering it usually takes a whole X-Men team to have a shot at Apocalypse, I'd say he's a SHW)

[Prof. Aragorn]

Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
Now as for a hero team:

The Thing as the heavyweight
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) as the superheavyweight

There's going to be a lot of boxing in their matches . . .

Originally posted by DTM
"Superman and Wonder Girl" --- Doesn't one of these have to be Marvel?

Sheesh, I am just not getting how to pick a team properly here. :)

OK, Ill go Superman (SHW) and Thing (HW)

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt

10. Superman and Thing

I'm confused . . .

[DTM]

Sorry buddy, didnt mean to steal your HW, I didnt see him on Maniacs lists at the time.

Ill go for.....hmmmmm, maybe Ill go with my original HW choice of Vision? He can even make a last ditch solar powered shot ON Superman to power him up, as he did in JLA/Avengers, so they work pretty well together. :)

Thanks.

[Maniac_nmt]

Correcting some errors
New Team List:
Heros:

1. Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch
2. Kyle Rayner and Captain Britain
3. Silver Surfer and Power Girl
4. Exiles Mimic and Vera Black
5. Green Lantern (Alan Scott) and Iron Man
6. Adam Warlock and The Martian Manhunter
7. Thor and Plastic Man
8. Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) and Clea
9. Samaritain and She Hulk
10. Superman and Vision
11. Rokk Krinn and Vance Astrovik
12. Hal Jordan and Thing

Villian:

1. Validus and Dr. Doom
2. Dracula and Despero
3. Black Adam and Crimson Dynamo
4. Ultron and Metallo
5. Hyperion and Lashina aka The Duchess
6. The General and Omega Red
7. Ultraman and the Wrecker
8. Darkseid and Diablo
9. Onimar Synn and Amora the Enchantress
10. Nemesis Kid and Nimrod

[Q99]

Ok, on the villain side, I'm going to toss in Machine (From Wildstorm, the 'evil' Engineer with all of her powers) and Loki.

[Rando]

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, on the villain side, I'm going to toss in Machine (From Wildstorm, the 'evil' Engineer with all of her powers) and Loki.

Isn't that 2 SHWs?

[Q99]

Well, Machine is less skilled than the Engineer, and I don't really think the Engineer is a SHW, really (most of Wildstorm's heroes are weaker, I'd say most of the Authority is HWs) . Hmm...

I mean, she mainly does guns and hacking in combat, and is fairly resilient (due to lack of need of most organs and nanite regeration), and at point-blank she can use the nanoblood to deconstruct stuff, but that wouldn't work on people with invunerability or who can fry the stuff. I'd personally put the Engineer at high-end HW.

[Rando]

She can also reproduce dozens of duplicates of herself and create devices on the fly (like her radio telepathy tanscievers). Her nano-mess can infiltrate just about any other machine as well (so she destroys pretty much any science based opponent out of hand).

[hail_eris]

Okay, here's my villain team:

HW: Selene (Black Queen) & SHW: Dr. Light

and I'll finish off the Green Lanterns with my hero team:

HW: Guy Gardner (Warrior) & SHW: Rachel Summers (Phoenix)

[Q99]

Originally posted by Rando
She can also reproduce dozens of duplicates of herself and create devices on the fly (like her radio telepathy tanscievers). Her nano-mess can infiltrate just about any other machine as well (so she destroys pretty much any science based opponent out of hand).


The multiple bodies thing was something the Engineer took time to do, and mentioned that it required effort the more bodies she had active (and was only seen doing basic physical stuff while this was taking place, so not too impressive. Her bodies are physically on the edge between MW/HW imo). Machine could probably only handle a few (she has all the powers of Engineer, but she's still a rookie with 'em), and physically they still aren't too impressive. Power Girl or Thing could fight several at once and come out on top just fine.


And the infecting machines is true, but that's really what she does. Like a psychic over the minds of other characters, only this one has to get pretty close to do so. And Tony Stark still probably has a defense.


She's high-end, but I haven't seen too much to put Engineer more than borderline between the two classes, and Machine is less skilled with the nanoblood than her.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Q99
Well, Machine is less skilled than the Engineer, and I don't really think the Engineer is a SHW, really (most of Wildstorm's heroes are weaker, I'd say most of the Authority is HWs) . Hmm...

I mean, she mainly does guns and hacking in combat, and is fairly resilient (due to lack of need of most organs and nanite regeration), and at point-blank she can use the nanoblood to deconstruct stuff, but that wouldn't work on people with invunerability or who can fry the stuff. I'd personally put the Engineer at high-end HW.

Engineer is pretty physically durable - when completely encased in her alloy wasn't she essentially invulnerable? - but the scary thing about her was that in the first "Authority" arc she massacred a few hundred HW's (like low-powered Supermen). She released her allow skin in a "cloud" of molecule-thin shrapnel that just shredded these guys for a huge distance. I don't know many HW's that can pull that one off too easily.

Nanites can also attack non-tech beings which leads to a few "deux ex machina" arguements, but in fairness I don't think that aspect of her powers are as frightening. I'm more hedgy on the "kill hundreds of HW's in a single attack while she was still learning her powers"-level of usage. :) (And, yes, I realize that's Engineer but if an inexperienced Engineer can do that I'm sure Machine can too).

[Q99]

but the scary thing about her was that in the first "Authority" arc she massacred a few hundred HW's (like low-powered Supermen).

Nah, they weren't HWs. Maybe on offense, but not defense. Hawkmoore (Spider-Man level) and Midnighter (somewhat below that) both killed some.

They had heat vision and strength, but their toughness was relatively low (except when they were launched like missiles through buildings- Perhaps a forcefield? They did have a somewhat halo-like effect around their heads iirc), and they were getting slaughtered by the Authority.

Angie could've killed them just as well with her guns, but since they were all flying at her the 'nanite net' worked better. I seriously doubt that works on anyone with real supertoughness, and it does still require getting close.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Allow me to add some bad guys to the list:

We'll call this team-up the 'Ring-a-ding-dings"
Sinestro and Temugin (son of The Mandarin - Heir to the Rings of Power)

http://spider-bob.com/villains/dc/Sinestro.htm
http://www.leaderslair.com/marvelvillains/temugin.html

M -

Did you miss my villains or am I only allowed a team of heroes?:squareeye

[Maniac_nmt]

Sorry GoldenAge, missed yours when I revised it last. I appologize

Anyways, current list

Heros:

1. Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch
2. Kyle Rayner and Captain Britain
3. Silver Surfer and Power Girl
4. Exiles Mimic and Vera Black
5. Green Lantern (Alan Scott) and Iron Man
6. Adam Warlock and The Martian Manhunter
7. Thor and Plastic Man
8. Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) and Clea
9. Samaritain and She Hulk
10. Superman and Vision
11. Rokk Krinn and Vance Astrovik
12. Hal Jordan and Thing
13. Guy Gardner (Warrior) and Rachel Summers

Villian:

1. Validus and Dr. Doom
2. Dracula and Despero
3. Black Adam and Crimson Dynamo
4. Ultron and Metallo
5. Hyperion and Lashina aka The Duchess
6. The General and Omega Red
7. Ultraman and the Wrecker
8. Darkseid and Diablo
9. Onimar Synn and Amora the Enchantress
10. Nemesis Kid and Nimrod
11. Sinestro and Temugin
12. Selene and Dr. Light

The debate still seems to be out about Machine. I dont' read the Authority, so I can't add or detract from any of the arguments.

[Q99]

I definitely want her on my villain team reguardless. If she's HW, then with Loki, if SHW, then with some HW Marvel Villain Mage (although to be honest, I'm not too sure who the best fit would be. Who's evil and sling spells in marvel?)

[Maniac_nmt]

Well, Baron Mordo is probably a SHW (don't read enough of Dr. Stranges own mag). Amora has already been selected. I've only read 2 Morgan Le Fay arcs (one in which she wielded the power of the twilight sword, and the other when she wielded special arrows given the Avengers by Thor). So no idea about normal operating level. Hela is SHW material her self.

Any one else have ideas?

[Rokk_Krinn]

Morgan is SHW material as she regularly takes on whole teams like the Avengers. I know just automatically taking on a team doesn't make you SHW but the things she does in those issues are pretty hefty.

Hmm....Calypso maybe?

[SyxxPac]

Who's stronger Morgan Le Fey from Marvel or Morgaine Le Fey DC?

[michiganj24]

Calypso is not really HW material perhaps someone like Belasco might cut it though

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Morgan is SHW material as she regularly takes on whole teams like the Avengers. I know just automatically taking on a team doesn't make you SHW but the things she does in those issues are pretty hefty.

Hmm....Calypso maybe?

Well, to be fair, both times I've seen her fight whole Avengers teams, she's had special artifacts to enhance her power. She wasn't that powerful by herself.

[Maniac_nmt]

Current List:

Heros:

1. Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch
2. Kyle Rayner and Captain Britain
3. Silver Surfer and Power Girl
4. Exiles Mimic and Vera Black
5. Green Lantern (Alan Scott) and Iron Man
6. Adam Warlock and The Martian Manhunter
7. Thor and Plastic Man
8. Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) and Clea
9. Samaritain and She Hulk
10. Superman and Vision
11. Rokk Krinn and Vance Astrovik
12. Hal Jordan and Thing
13. Guy Gardner (Warrior) and Rachel Summers
14. Captain Atom and Warbird
15. Duplicate Boy and Jean Grey

Villian:

1. Validus and Dr. Doom
2. Dracula and Despero
3. Black Adam and Crimson Dynamo
4. Ultron and Metallo
5. Hyperion and Lashina aka The Duchess
6. The General and Omega Red
7. Ultraman and the Wrecker
8. Darkseid and Diablo
9. Onimar Synn and Amora the Enchantress
10. Nemesis Kid and Nimrod
11. Sinestro and Temugin
12. Selene and Dr. Light
13. Obsidian and Klaw
14. BION and Radioactive Man
15. Machine and ???

In terms of helping Q99 out, what about Karnilla? I'm not sure she climbs into the SHW catagory for sorcery. I also thought of Spiral, but I'm not sure she can climb into the HW catagory. Although she is a spell caster with enchanted weapons. Anyone know any Ghost Rider villians that might fit the bill?

[Rando]

There is also the ever obscure Umar, as well as Amora's sister (whose name escapes me).

[Rokk_Krinn]

Actually Spiral wouldn't be a bad HW contender at all - enchanted weapons, multiple limbs, resilence, strength, reflexes, teleportation, a few spells, etc. - but what about Mojo? Not SHW but a serious magician who could easily make the HW category just based on his life-siphoning powers alone.

[Rando]

Mojo's a magician? I thought he was science based.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Rando
Mojo's a magician? I thought he was science based.

He uses other-dimensional tech but even a lot of that is "based" on magic principles. Mojo has some tech that he uses for mobility (his little base with the "scorpion tail" that can jolt things) but his main "attacks" when we've seen him in action are magical: eldritch bolts, life-drain (his specialty), minor mind control, etc.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Rando
There is also the ever obscure Umar, as well as Amora's sister (whose name escapes me).

Lorelei which is odd considering that's an entirely different mythos. :) Her specialty like Amora's was "enticing men" and her signature was a petrifying kiss.

[Maniac_nmt]

Lorelei is not really someone you'd ever see in combat, and her spells are not particularly potent.

It was Loki's magic which bound Thor to her for a time (not hers, and Amora has at least briefly been able to influence Thor, given the right conditions).

So, Q99, a possible list for you to pick from:

Spiral
Mojo
Karnilla
Umar (although you are on your own there, the first 3 are more recognizable people)

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Q99
I definitely want her on my villain team reguardless. If she's HW, then with Loki, if SHW, then with some HW Marvel Villain Mage (although to be honest, I'm not too sure who the best fit would be. Who's evil and sling spells in marvel?)

One more:

Zaladane (from the Savage Land - connected to Gorrok)
http://www.classicmarvel.com/pictures/zaladane.jpg

[GAMURAI]

Heroes
X-man and Flash (Wally West)
Villians:
Mordru and kang

[GoldenAge]

... and a few others:

ZOTA OF PERGAMUM
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/zota.htm
SHADOWQUEEN
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/shadowqueenstrange.htm

TIBORO
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/tiboro.htm

SOMNAMBULIST
http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/somnam.htm#ervi

STEPHEN LOSS
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/lossst.htm

CALIZUMA
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/calizuma.htm

CHANDU
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/chandu.htm

XANDER
http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/xander.htm

Lord Phyffe
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/phyffejulian.htm

SHAZANA
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/shazanastrange.htm

[Maniac_nmt]

Sorry Gamurai, both teams are a wee bit to powerful. Anyways, here is your final list. I will get the first matches up tonight when I get home from work.

Option B was the winner with 2 votes.

Final List:

Heros:

1. Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch
2. Kyle Rayner and Captain Britain
3. Silver Surfer and Power Girl
4. Exiles Mimic and Vera Black
5. Green Lantern (Alan Scott) and Iron Man
6. Adam Warlock and The Martian Manhunter
7. Thor and Plastic Man
8. Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) and Clea
9. Samaritain and She Hulk
10. Superman and Vision
11. Rokk Krinn and Vance Astrovik
12. Hal Jordan and Thing
13. Guy Gardner (Warrior) and Rachel Summers
14. Captain Atom and Warbird
15. Duplicate Boy and Jean Grey
16. Orion and Rogue

Villian:

1. Validus and Dr. Doom
2. Dracula and Despero
3. Black Adam and Crimson Dynamo
4. Ultron and Metallo
5. Hyperion and Lashina aka The Duchess
6. The General and Omega Red
7. Ultraman and the Wrecker
8. Darkseid and Diablo
9. Onimar Synn and Amora the Enchantress
10. Nemesis Kid and Nimrod
11. Sinestro and Temugin
12. Selene and Dr. Light
13. Obsidian and Klaw
14. BION and Radioactive Man
15. Machine and Spiral
16. SABBAC and Barron Blood

[Q99]

Machine and Spiral should be a great team, excellent.

And I like the Sabbac and Baron Blood pair. New Sabbac, I assume? (not that I think there's much of a difference in their powers, but the new guy having a Russian accent is cool)

[GAMURAI]

awww. I think my villain team is shw in mordru and hw in kang. But fair enough.