View Full Version : TV Cartoon Battles: Super-Heavyweight Division: FINAL MATCH
Well, here we are. Down to our Final 2 SHW combatants. The 2 Strongest and overall most Poweful of the entire Division. Which one shall emerge victorious here and emerge with the title Grand Champion of the SHW Class? That, as always, is up to You All.
Now without further adieu, allow me to present your next and FINAL battle in a BRAND NEW (Actually unless youre from Mars, these are pretty old hat by now) type of Tournament Of Champions:
MEWTWO (POKEMON)
VS.
TIAMAT (DUNGEONS & DRAGONS)
As always, same rules apply, no time to prepare, POOFed from where ever they were, with only what they routinely carry on them AND/OR routinely used in their shows, to fight in a Large area til one stands and one falls. YOU decide Who.
Randomly Chosen Area:
Jungle Ruins - Lush, verdant trees rise over the jungle floor below. Thick vines crisscross the canopy. A large, ruined city complex sits in the center. It's fantastic masonry eroded by rain and time. In the middle it is bisected by a large, placid river flowing in at one end of the arena, and leaving through the other. (Inspired by: Tarzan, Jungle Book, etc)
Thanks all, and enjoy.
And REMEMBER, if youre not sure who someone is here, ASK. Theres PLENTY of people here who can tell you most anything youd like to know. Thanks again.
ALSO, please do your best to respect everyones votes, reasonings and opinions here. If you believe your character should win, but doesnt in the end, dont hold grudges against the character that beat yours, or call the votes that allowed this to happen "fanboy" arguments or plain and simply wrong. We all have our own way of thinking and voting here, with each one of our thoughts and ideas as valid as your own. Lets do what we can, even in the heat of an argument, to respect that. Thanks.
TV CARTOON TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS Part 4
ROUND 1
He-Man vs. Oberon: Oberon (12 - 7)
Tiamat vs. Superion: Tiamat (15 - 4)
Big O vs. The Gundam: Big O (7 - 0)
Omega Supreme vs. Hordak: Omega Supreme (7 - 0)
Godzilla vs. Imhotep: Godzilla (9 - 2)
Genie vs. Ryoko: Genie (11 - 10)
Shendu vs. Legato Bluesummers: Shendu (11 - 4)
King Hiss vs. Voltron (Vehicle Form): Voltron (Vehicle Form) (8 - 2)
Venger vs. Devastator: Venger (7 - 2)
Space Ghost vs. BlackWarGreymon: Space Ghost (10 - 5)
Metlar vs. Mewtwo: Mewtwo (10 - 1)
Sailor Saturn vs. Gundam Deathscyth v.2: Gundam Deathscyth v.2 (7 - 3)
Dracula vs. Wiseman: Wiseman (8 - 7)
Lord Hazanko vs. Mozenrath: Lord Hazanko (5 - 4)
Talpa vs. Experiment 627: Talpa (5 - 2)
Pyron vs. Voltron (Lion Form): Pyron (7 - 6)
ROUND 2
Tiamat vs. Godzilla: Tiamat (10 - 3)
Shendu vs. Lord Hazanko: Lord Hazanko (9 - 8)
Genie vs. Pyron: Pryon (10 - 8)
Wiseman vs. Voltron (Vehicle Form): Wiseman (8 - 0)
Big O vs. Oberon: Oberon (8 - 2)
Space Ghost vs. MewTwo: Mewtwo (9 - 4)
Venger vs. Gundam Deathscyth v.2: Venger (9 - 0)
Omega Surpeme vs. Talpa: Omega Supreme (8 - 5)
ROUND 3
Lord Hazanko vs. Venger: Venger (6 - 3)
Oberon vs. Mewtwo: Mewtwo (13 - 0)
Tiamat vs. Wiseman: Tiamat (8 - 4)
Omega Supreme vs. Pyron: Pyron (6 - 5)
ROUND 4
Venger vs. Tiamat: Tiamat (9 - 0)
Mewtwo vs. Pyron: Mewtwo (8 - 5)
FINAL MATCH
Tiamat vs. Mewtwo: ??????
14 Down, 2 To Go
Tiamat (Dungeons & Dragons) – Tiamat is the Queen of all evil dragons in the realm of Dungeons and Dragons. This Gigantic 5 headed dragon has immense power and intellect, and she can breath multiple breath weapons of fire, cold, poison gas, lightning and acid ooze (each separately or all at once) to devastating effect, in addition to flight, and vast physical and magical durability. Queen of the most powerful race of creatures in her world, and the only being in the D&D universe Venger fears, its no wonder Tiamat is one of the most powerful beings in her entire realm.
Mewtwo (Pokemon) - Geneticly enginered from DNA of the legendary Pokemon Mew, the Psychic type Pokemon, Mewtwo is arguably the most powerful Pokemon ever. He communicates with telepathy, and his Telekinetic powers can create energy attacks, incredibly powerful force fields, and give him the ability to fly. His TK abilities are strong enough to level an entire island research base. He has super human intelligence, shown by the fact he's mastered the science of cloning and Pokeball technology. His major flaw is his arrogance and his deep burning hatred for all humans.
i'm tossing in a vote for tiamat for two reasons, one good and one not so good.
#1 i nominated her, and nothing i've ever nominated has ever made it this far in a toc. i'm so proud :grin:
and #2 as tough as mewtwo is, i don't think tk is enough to beat tiamat. throwing stuff at her would be pretty useless, throwing her won't do much as she can fly.
i would think dragons, the queen of all dragons especially would be immune to mind control. or else venger would have already tried that.
i just think tiamat has alot more weapons and a lot more power at her disposal.
Avatar Jack
04/03/2005, 15:09
I vote for Mewtwo. Taimat may have all kinds of magical resistance, but I haven't seen anything to suggest any kind of mental resistance. And Mewtwo has shown the ability to affect multiple minds at once. Plus with his sheilds, and the fact that many Pokemon have abilities similer to each of Tiamats five heads (meaning Mewtwo knows how to counter them), he's the perfect foe to defeat Tiamat.
A couple things:
I don't think Venger's spells had a "mind control" element to them. He wasn't a psionist. he was a wizard.
Mew Two does have the shielding, the ability to know where Tiamat is in this jungle, and the ability to defeat multiple foes at once. I think the shielding will help against the breath weapons, not sure about the magic spells though. Can Tiamat cast magical spells (has it been shown in the TV show, not her D&D counterpart)?
If Tiamat can get to Mew Two without his shielding, then she would defeat him. But why would Mew Two lower his shielding?
Ok, before I vote, I need to know whether or not Tiamat from the cartoon ever cast spells and what kind of spells were they?
I vote for Mewtwo.
Mewtwo has a couple of singificant advantages here. One si that he has true flight, as opposed to flying with wings, this makes him more maneuverable and probably much faster, it is also easy for someone with telekinetics to disrupt winged flight a good shove at the right part of the wing would send the flyer out of control, it's like tripping someone. This, plus teleportation will allow Mewtwo to prevent Tiamat from ever reaching close combat unless Mewtwo wants her too. Tiamat's most damageing attack (her breath weapons) are particulalry ineffective against a forcefield, the acid and gas just won't do anything to a forcefield, it isn't matter and can't be melted like that and doesn't breath, fire won't burn it unless it is flammable for some illogical reason, and cold also won't prove very effective, no molecules to slow down, the electricity may prove effective but that is a huge blow to Tiamat's offensive abilities. Most of the good whammy spells that Tiamat could call upon are mental in nature the direct damage is all worse than her breath weapons at her level, and the more brutal insta-kills are too high level for her, so even if Mewtwo's magical resistance is wanting (I think there is magic in Pokemon, not sure) then his psychic nature should pick up the slack. Just like in the last match Mewtwo's psychic powers give him a significant advantage over Tiamat that she has no ready answer for, Tiamat has no special resistance against psychic power (or any of his attacks really, they aren't magic) and the mental powers that Mewtwo possess give him a distince range and tactical advantage, they allow him to keep track of Tiamat, peek in on her plans, attack her from farther away than she can attack him, and bypass her physcial defenses. Again Tiamat has to force Mewtwo into a shooting war Mewtwo doesn't have to be in one to win.
Wouldnt Mewtwos TK shield be more directed against physical/energy assaults, and not Magical ones? I would say MTs shields are going to be much less effective against Tiamats spells and breath weapons that anything else hes fought in this TOC.
Eh, Ill vote before I go to work.
I vote Tiamat for the win.
As stated above, I dont think Mewtwos TK shields are going to be equipped to handle the massive amounts of magical firepower Tiamat can bring. Hes a super genius, so is Tiamat, but unlike Metwo she has a great amount of physical durability, something which I believe will protect her from the TK thrown objects MT will throw at her. And her mind is about as strong as they come in the D&D realms (cartoon anyway) so even a super Pokemon would have immense trouble affecting her mentally.
Prof. Aragorn
04/03/2005, 15:49
Dracula-easily. That magic+brains+strength+will power combination is unstoppable.
tiamat isn't a dragon-type pokemon.
she's a magical creature, the most powerful of her race.
her breath weapons aren't natural breath weapons like charizard would have (which mewtwo's shields are effective against). they're magical breath weapons.
which i don't think mewtwo would have a defense against. iirc there's very little magic in the pokemon world. (dark type would be close... but thats stretching it)
and none as powerful as tiamat.
Originally posted by DTM
Wouldnt Mewtwos TK shield be more directed against physical/energy assaults, and not Magical ones? I would say MTs shields are going to be much less effective against Tiamats spells and breath weapons that anything else hes fought in this TOC.
I don't think so. I don't think direct damage style magic is really any different than other forms of direct damage it isn't like a house would burn any different if you threw a powder keg at it or if you threw a fireball at it. Stuff like death spells and junk would certainly not be affected by a forcefield, but most of the ones that Tiamat has access to are mental in nature so Mewtwo has resistance from another avenue. Maybe if Tiamt's damage dealing spells were highly meta-physical like the soul gem or something I'd give her some forcefield bypassing ability, but I don't see anyreason that magiclly created fire or lightining would be any more effective unless the target had a specific vulnerability to magic.
Originally posted by jedah_s
tiamat isn't a dragon-type pokemon.
she's a magical creature, the most powerful of her race.
her breath weapons aren't natural breath weapons like charizard would have (which mewtwo's shields are effective against). they're magical breath weapons.
which i don't think mewtwo would have a defense against. iirc there's very little magic in the pokemon world. (dark type would be close... but thats stretching it)
and none as powerful as tiamat.
Again their unnatural origin doesn't really change their mechanics. If you picked up a stone wall and put it between you and Tiamat's fire-breath, and you and Charizard's firebreath (assumeing Charizard's were as large and damageing as Tiamat's which it isn't) then you would get the same general result, it isn't like Tiamat's fire would just pass through the wall because it is magical. Tiamat's breath attacks may be more powerful in terms of maginitude (for example her fire is probably hotter than it naturally could be) but that doesn't mean she can just bypass forcefields wiht it, and it also doesn't mean the forcefield would burn, it isn't matter.
Aside from all that however is the fact that Mewtwo is much more maneuverable and has an effective range that is far greater than Tiamat's relatively short range breath weapons. Even is his forcefield isn't particularly effective then he has another option: staying too far away to be hit.
i disagree.
i think that the pokemon universe is very low on magic... so no one would have a high defense to magical attacks.
a forcefield that built to withstand natural weapons.... natural breath weapons, natural physical attacks, natural projectiles.... wouldn't be as effective against magical versions of these types of attacks... just for the simple fact that there is very little magic (if any) in the pokemon universe.
"Aside from all that however is the fact that Mewtwo is much more maneuverable and has an effective range that is far greater than Tiamat's relatively short range breath weapons. Even is his forcefield isn't particularly effective then he has another option: staying too far away to be hit."
maneuverable yes....
as for effective range.... if his attacks are even effective at all. the jury is still out in my opinion that mind control will work on tiamat.
and imo, mewtwo is too cocky to run. he's a genius yes, but he doesn't think he can be beaten either... and that makes him cocky.
according to my wife, fighting and poison type pokemon are very effective against psychic pokemon.
one of tiamats breath weapons is a poison gas.
thats seems to be a plus for tiamat to me.
Even the strongest of minds will succumb to enough psychic hassleing. Furthermore Mewtwo's greater range isn't just mental powers, he once used his t.k. to create a strom that, once it had built to head, would destroy all life on Earth except that in Mewtwo's fortress, that means that Mewtwo can generate even physical effects that have an enourmous range.
I don't know if I think that Mewtwo is arrognace is great enough that it would actually coinstitute an exploitable flaw. He is prideful and confident in his abilities, but those traits have also never led him into a tactical cource of action that was anything less than effective, whenever Mewtwo thought he was in control of the situation, he was in control of the situation. Maybe if Mewtwo had a history of makeing mistakes due to arrognace I would be more willing to credit him with makeing them here, but he doesn't seem to have that problem. His ego doesn't rule him.
Again if the poison gas is gonna be a problem then Mewtwo can just stay out of it, the gas cloud has a very short range (even less than that of her spells, breath weapons require one to be failry close) compared to most of the attack methods being employed by both fighters.
Avatar Jack
04/03/2005, 16:43
Originally posted by jedah_s
according to my wife, fighting and poison type pokemon are very effective against psychic pokemon.
one of tiamats breath weapons is a poison gas.
thats seems to be a plus for tiamat to me.
Actually, psychic type Pokemon are very effective against fighting and poison types. They are weak to dark and bug types. I'm just guessing, but I do not think that Tiamat has anything close to dark or bug type attacks.
The magical nature of Tiamat's attacks may make them stronger than a naturallu occuring equivalent (example a +1 arrow is obviously more effective than a mundane one) but they will still respond to things in a manner consistent with their mundane equivalents. For example Tiamat's fire will burn stuff just like normal fire, if she were to use that attack on a lava monster do I think it would prove more effective than normal fire:no, fire wouldn't work against something like that. By the same token fire shouldn't work on a forcefield it isn't matter, it won't burn, it would be like trying to set gravity or electricity or something like that on fire, and just because Tiamat's fire is magical doesn't mean it will cause things that simply cannot burn to burn. Things designed to halt direct damage will still halt magical direct damage of the same type, the reason magic is threatening is because it often has ways to render attack that are totally meta-physical in nature and have no natural equivalents, and because it allows things to be more powerful than they otherwise would be. Unfortunanly for Tiamat she has a very small list of things like that to choose from that aren't also mental in nature.
so according to you, a universe that has no magic in it would automatically have a high magic defense.
because magic isn't really special in anyway other than it's effects are a little more than an ordinary version of that attack?
No, magical effects that are designed to be special would obviously be special. For example if Tiamat's attacks damaged the soul of the target or were purely magical in nature then they obviously wouldn't respond to the normal laws of physics. That isn't how Tiamat's stuff works though, she is useing magic to generate naturally occureing phenomena, if her magically created acid worked differently than normal acid then why make it acid at all? For that matter do you think that if Tiamat were to show up in a normal world that she could break up electrical fields with her poison gas, or burn up gravity? If her attacks worked in a manner totally apart from how one would expect them to then why would they have mundane equivalents why wouldn't she just be breathing waves of concentrated guilt, or eldritch energy, or something that has no mundane equivalent?
so the most powerful dragon is the d&d universe has breath weapons that
burn a little hotter than normal fire
burn a little faster than normal acid
are just a little colder than normal cold
just a little more deadly than normal poison
and what, just a little faster than normal lightning?
why would the most powerful wizard in the d&d universe be afraid of something that isn't really all that impressive?
heck venger does have magic.... shouldn't he have magical shields that would work expressly against magical breath weapons?
there has to be some reason she's feared by everyone short of the dungeon master.
mewtwo has no defense against magic of any sort.... but apparently that means magic won't affect him at all.
is the opposite true? since there are no psychic pokemon in the d&d universe, would a psychic pokemon attack even affect her?
would she have a higher defense against it since she's never encountered it before?
Maximcards
04/03/2005, 17:21
I'll vote Tiamat....he has the power to blow this pokemon off the map
Mr_Clicky
04/03/2005, 17:25
I'll chime in my vote for Tiamat. I'm no Pokemon-expert, but I know enough to say that Tiamat will win this fight.
I am throwing my vote in for Mew Two. I think the shielding will shield him from Tiamat's breath weapons. While they are of the magical nature, I still believe his forcefield will stand up to it. I also think that Mew Two's psychic powers will be able to shut down Tiamat's heads. Tiamat has no special protection against psychic attacks and is vulnerable to them. She is powerful, but there was nothing in the D&D universe that has the psychic abilities of Mew Two. Also, Mew Two is an agile flier and can attack from afar while Tiamat has to get in close to use her breath weapons. Heck, Mew Two could sit comfortable from afar using his psychic powers while Tiamat has to find him. Will Mew Two win 100% of the time, of course not, but definately more than 50% of the time.
Mew Two for the final victory and for the champion of the SHW TOC.
MASACRE1
04/03/2005, 17:34
tiamat power is not offensive power
he has more defenses that u can imagine
tiamat is inmune to all their breath weapons and their elements
in adition tiamat has a lot of will strength so even the greatest of the psionics in D&D couldnt harm tiamat's mind
and not only her dragon figthing skills or her breath weapon
tiamat has also great magical powers
it would be easy for her to use a 'wish' spell and harm porm pokemon a lot!!
no one can stand tiamat powers,except for the DM who controls the game
Originally posted by jedah_s
so the most powerful dragon is the d&d universe has breath weapons that
burn a little hotter than normal fire
burn a little faster than normal acid
are just a little colder than normal cold
just a little more deadly than normal poison
and what, just a little faster than normal lightning?
why would the most powerful wizard in the d&d universe be afraid of something that isn't really all that impressive?
heck venger does have magic.... shouldn't he have magical shields that would work expressly against magical breath weapons?
there has to be some reason she's feared by everyone short of the dungeon master.
mewtwo has no defense against magic of any sort.... but apparently that means magic won't affect him at all.
is the opposite true? since there are no psychic pokemon in the d&d universe, would a psychic pokemon attack even affect her?
would she have a higher defense against it since she's never encountered it before?
The reason Vengar loses to Tiamat is because she also has outrageous magical resistance and can get to him in physical combat. No he shouldn't have shields that stop her breath attacks, he doesn't exhibit them in the show and there are none in the rules (at least not that are strong enough to stop more than one or two shots, and then only from a few of the different types). That she is feared by everyone works both ways, Mewtwo is feared by all he opposes, short of no one. She isn't attacking him with magic she is attacking him with fire (or lightining or cold or acid, or gas) created by magic, if I create a brick with magic can I throw it through mundane matter as if it didn't exist? Can I use the same brick to club my way through an electrical field, would it deflect lasers?
She also has some spells, her it just turns out that in the show she only threw more direct damage stuff (like earthquakes) and most of the spells she has access too ( her stats place her at only able to cast 5th level and below) give her access to only a very, very few spells that wouldn't be easily countered by psychic powers or aren't just inferior forms of direct damage.
I'm not sure how you made the leap of logic from Tiamat's magically created equivalents to natural phenomena will act similarly to their mundane equivalents to Mewtwo is immune to magic. Why did you even bother to discuss their relative maneuverabilities, shouldn't Tiamat's attacks just disregard such things because they are magic? For that matter why did you bring up psychic type pokemon's weakness to poison type, if Tiamat's poison is magic and therefore, according to you, acts in no way like normal poison, then why would that even be germaine? For that matter if her breath attacks don't act in any manner like their normal eqivalents (fire, acid, cold, electricity, and gas) then why are they even called that, it would be like calling an F-14 a table?
Ehhh...the Mewtwo crowd bring up good points, but I agree he's probably not going to be ready for such powerful magic assaults. The variety of breath is one thing, but magic blasts is another thing entirely.
Vote: Tiamat.
Ok, am I misunderstanding Tiamat? What magical blasts?? I was a huge Tiamat supporter taking this to the end and never expected Mew Two to be in the final 2, but really - if Mew Two's shielding could withstand the Pyron sun attack from the last round (which he did since he made it to the final round), why would Tiamat's breath weapons be any different??? Its a psychic shield that is designed to keep out all physical and mental attacks. Tiamat's attacks are still physical - just more powerful. And as I stated previously - Why would mew Two get even close to Tiamat when he can stay safely away and shut her down with his psychic powers???
As I stated in an earlier match, Mew Two's powers are comparable to Xaviers and Jean Grey's powers. Is it like Xavier, no. But on par with Xavier and Jean. The DM was not a psychic nor did he posess the powers that Mew Two have. Oh yes, he is a cosmic level being, but did not posess the powers of mew two.
Mew Two can stay in the jungle, attack from afar. When Tiamat gets closer, fly away (he is very fast and agile while flying with his shielding up) and continue to attack from afar.
Yea, those debating the shield and whether or not it'll be penetrated: Don't forget that Mewtwo is very agile like MSU says, and doesn't lose a bit of it while that's up. He can fly around and dodge the vast majority of her breath weapon attacks and only take a few on the shield, while attacking back even.
I'll vote for Mewtwo.
1) He has fought lightnong type, fire type, poison type ect. pokemon and his shield held up fine, why not here against the same types of weapons.
2) I don't believe Tiamat has the Psychic defence. My vote...
MEWTWO
Wow. A true "Clash of the Titans"
Tiamat is huge and has an incredible defence from both magic and physical attacks. Mewtwo is small, agile, and has a fantastic shield to block attacks with.
According to the manual i'm holding right now (And i'm not ashamed to admit that :) ) Psychic monsters are weak against: DARK, BUG and GHOST. And they are strong against POISON monsters.
I agree with Rando, Tiamat's breath powers act no different from regular fire, ice, acid and poison. They are magically produced, but they have the same effect as their regular counterparts. Think about it this way, If I was a magician and I wanted a car, I would magically produce a car. Since the car was produced by magic, it should be a magic car, right? NO. Its just a regular car that was made from magic.
So I dont think the breath weapons will hurt much if at all.
Mewtwo will have to resort to all his skill and cunning to defeat this great dragon, but I honestly think he has the wit and the power to pull this one off.
Vote: Mewtwo
By the way, DTM, are the teams ready for the team battles? I hope you can post them as you did with the Movie TOC as well. :)
Q99 - have you voted yet?
spidernate
04/03/2005, 23:40
Mewtwo for the win.
Rando's and other's explanations on the magic Vs. psychic shields just makes more sence then the opposition. Magic creating natural occurences are still natural and can be countered by the shields. Also people voting for Tiamat seem to be ignoring mewtwo's strongest weapon; his psychic attacks which as far as I know Tiamat has displayed no defence against.
I send my vote for Mewtwo here, as while Tiamat is extremely powerful, Mewtwo's shield is very, very strong, and he is agile and amazing at Multitasking. Think of him as Magneto + Psychic. Its as if you merged Magneto and Xavier and somehow didn't get a horrible horrible Marvel Universe engrossing plot sinkhole.
Mewtwo is quite capable of blocking out most of Tiamat's damage, if not all, plus anyone remotely familar with Pokemon, as we are allowed to use outside sources, knows Mewtwo knows the move Recover, which heals more than half his health each use, so he can definitely heal himself so a battle of attrtion, which is likely, definitely would go in his favor. He also knows Amnesia, boosting his ability to defend against elemental based attacks, such as fire, lightning, ice, etc.
People who assume " Its Magic It Bypasses it All " are running on a superman assumption that does NOT apply to all characters in all universes. If Dr Strange shot a huge fireball at Magneto, would it break his forcefield effortly cause oh wait, its magic, it ALWAYS works.No. Now if he had a spell specifically designed to do so, sure. Tiamat has nothing of the sort. All it means is Tiamat has INSANELY powerful breath attacks, but that power doesn't matter if Mewtwo dodges it, blocks it, or takes some of it and simply regenerates it. Is there a chance she can push the damage through? Sure. Mewtwo just has too many ways to stop it or negate it that this won't happen often enough to get my vote.
Vote: Mewtwo.
Originally posted by Poring
By the way, DTM, are the teams ready for the team battles? I hope you can post them as you did with the Movie TOC as well. :)
Well, that depends on how fast someone can send me 4 sets of randomized numbers from 1 to 32. Any takers?
Tiamat - 6 votes
Mewtwo - 7 votes
VandalSavage
04/04/2005, 03:34
I am going to have to weigh in on this one. I believe Tiamat's magic and mental strength would be more than enough to overcome Mewtwo's shields and what not. The pure amount of damage Tiamat puts out would cripple Mewtwo in my opinion.
I vote...Tiamat!
Mr. Savage
Q99 - have you voted yet?
Nope, and purposefully so. I'm still indecisive on the final outcome.
HOLY FSCK'N MOSES!
Here goes...
It has been a long road for both contestants, arriving here. Upon one side of the immense jungle hovers the sinister grey-skinned form of Mewtwo. Along the road here he has crushed Metalr like an insect within his own armour, reduced the Big O to scrap with a telekinetic assault upon its very joints, torn iron molecules from scrap to strike down a God, and clashed wills with a living sun who, in his hubris, chose to limit himself. Now he stands here, scanning the area for a foe the likes of which he has never faced before.
Tiamat spreads her magnificent rust coloured wings as she takes to the air. It has been a long road for her too, first rending some oversized supposedly intelligent golem named Superion apart, ridding the Realm of a mockery of Dragonkind, clashing with an avatar of Black Magic, before the sweetest victory of all, teaching that upstart named Venger who the TRUE power of the Realm is. And now, it seems, she is to face this small, but monumentally powerful Psionic being. This Mewtwo. She has steeled her will for the mental assault she knows shall come, and has augmented her defences and abilities with magic. There is little more she can do, but await her foe here in the favoured battleground for them both, the air.
Mewtwo winces as he senses the presence of his foe. He knew she was large, but not quite so massive. Looking up with his physical eyes, he sees the shape of Tiamat race across the sky. Her passing blocks out what little sunlight pierces the dense canopy of the jungle.
"So be it" he hisses, strengthening his barrier, and starting to focus his will against the mind of his opponent.
The mental blow she has been expecting comes, and it feels like the impact of one of her own mighty limbs against a wall. Tiamat screams in rage and pain with all five of her heads, her will reeling from the sledgehammer blow that the insect below just dealt. Swooping low, she unleashes an apocalypse of spell and breath against the jungle below, determined to reveal Mewtwo's hiding place. As she starts, she whips out one claw, grabbing a single tree.
Mewtwo's misshapen mouth curls into the closest approximation it can manage of a smile as he observes Tiamat wheeling around for a strafing run upon the jungle. He turns towards where it shall come from, and braces himself for the firestorm that has already begun. A cloud of noxious green gas swirls around the outside, his barrier filtering the breathable air from the chlorine-like poison that surrounds it. As the superheated flames approach, he can feel the infernal heat, and realises that his barrier will be taxed to its absolute limits. As the fires surround him, he looks up again, and thinks to himself "all space is the same". Even as the thought forms, he is above the speeding dragon, looking down, and repairing his battered shield. Smiling once more, he begins to focus his will upon the very atoms around him, tearing away electrons one by one to create one of his favoured weapons, a barely controlled orb of raging energy.
Tiamat's supernaturally sharp senses feel the air shift, and the tiny flecks of soot descending from above her as she devestates another part of the jungle. Twisting her body around and craning two of her heads, she can see her opponent above her, a ball of purple energy forming in the air before it. Grinning, she shouts to it as she soars towards the Pokemon.
"So you are this Mewtwo. You're even smaller than I thought"
"And you are larger, clumsier and more foolish than I thought" is the sibilant reply as the grey-fleshed creature releases his orb of energy. It slams into a barrier before her, similar to his own shield.
"Such an insult will not go unpunished" responds the Dragon, and with a massive sweep of her wings she races forward, all five mouths opening to rend this new upstart asunder.
Mewtwo senses the attack coming a heartbeart before she begins, and braces his shield for a series of massive impacts. One set of jaws after another crashes against the barrier, teeth as long as his arm ripping along his protective sphere. The fifth and final set clashes against his barrier repeatedly, and two massive clawed hands close against the sides. He turns to find himself staring down the throat of Tiamat's massive crimson head, and winces again. He can feel the heat already building up. Then there is no light at all.
As Tiamat's jaws clash against Mewtwo's shield, she focuses arcane energy into the tree limb she holds. A great sphere of inky blackness rapidly engulfs the pair, a minor annoyance to her, but potentially a grave one to the foe she now holds in her hands as she tumbles over herself in the air, and draws in a great breath.
Time seems to slow down as Mewtwo tumbles around in stygian darkness. He reaches out with his mind again, and slams his mental fist against Tiamat's will again. Once again he feels the massive and ancient will shudder against his own, but it does not give. He strikes again and again as he begins to feel around his physical form.
Tiamat feels the mental agony of his assault, but it is lessened by the exultation she feels as she unleashes a great gout of fire over her foe. Surely it could not have survived that!
"GUESS AGAIN!" thunders the voice in her mind, as she feels the tree being torn from her grasp by an unseen hand.
Turning, she sees Mewtwo hovering a distance away, surrounded by hovering trees and stones, all being carved by gleaming fields of force that surround them.
"Impossible!" she roars back, hurling a spray of arcane bolts at them, only for them to patter harmleslly against the sphere of force that surrounds Mewtwo and his mind-forged arsenal.
With a gesture, the newly crafted spears and blades hurtle towards the dragon, wielded by Mewtwo's deadliest weapon, his mind. He speeds around her, twisting and blinking in and out of existence, continuing his massive mental onslaught, punctuating it with blasts of pure force and shaped energy.
Tiamat ignores the weapons that stab at her, they are little more than stinging flies to a mountain, she is more concerned with their master, who constantly eludes her grasp. Even her breath weapons that fill the air seem to have little effect, his constant weaving and his near-impregnable barrier affording him incredible protection. The frustration and his constant psychic onslaught are getting to her as well, he flight seems more awkward than usual, he blows less deadly.
This is what Mewtwo has been waiting for. Retreating, he lets his weapons fall to the ground, and gathers all of his will into one massive blow. He begins to fall as he ceases focusing on flight, and his normally omnipresent shield winks out. Tiamat dives after him, but Mewtwo has taken her pursuit into account. Staring coldly at the rushing dragon, he smiles as all five mouths open. There is a flash of purple energy from his eyes, and
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Tiamat screams in mortal agony, and her entire body siezes up. She has felt pain before, but this is like a white hot knife being driven into each of her heads. Diving as she was at such speed, the plows into the ground unaware, and unable to stop. A great plume of dust rises as her form levels some of the ruins and gouges a great scar in the earth. She lies there, unmoving.
Mewtwo, for his part, hastily blinks out of the way of the plummeting dragon after delivering his blast. He is weary from the effort, but he knows that NOTHING could have withstood that strike. As the dragon comes to rest, all goes white.
Looking up, he sees for the first time the Masters of this spectacle. Grinning, DTM, Q99, ca551u5, Grinner and the others cheer. Meanwhile, Prof Aragorn rocks back in his chair, and sneers "Dracula could've taken her!"
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Well, that's that. My vote goes to Mewtwo, for the simple reason that his ability to adapt, multitask and plan on the fly is unrivalled. Combine that with near cosmic psychic abilities (the guy controlled the WEATHER by shifting Earth's magnetic field!) and we have a deserving Champion.
Excellent story, ca551u5... your best one yet ;)
Oh, and as for accusations of Mewtwo being arrogant, I say this: It isn't arrogance if you can back it up. Mewtwo was arrogant because he had every reason to be, there was NO-ONE who could even begin to challenge him. He took on an Arcanine, Nidoking and Gyarados, all at once. These three extremely strong Pokemon were reduced to cowering heaps in seconds by the onslaught, both telepathic and telekinetic, that Mewtwo can unleash. The monster can make sub-atomic particles dance to his will, such is his control.
Then Mew showed up, and when the chips were down, Mewtwo didn't hold back. At no point did he let his ego get in the way of trying to crush his genetic mother. He recognised a strong opponent, and went ALL OUT to try and beat her. He's read the Evil Overlord list, and he follows it.
And let there be no doubt as to his being a monster. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Mewtwo wouldn't have been out of place in a more adult Sci-Fi/Horror film, he had no qualms about killing, totally mentally reprogramming someone, and was intent on all out xenocide.
Jawapimp
04/04/2005, 08:06
Based on what ca551u5 said, as well as the idea that Mewtwo's sheilds are tough to break, I give the win to the pokemon.
Mewtwo for the belt!
Rokk_Krinn
04/04/2005, 10:30
Bleh. I'm a bit bleary-eyed from flight & time zone difference, so bear with me while I weigh in here...
Mewtwo can teleport, but as we've noted, so can Tiamat which tends to mean she can just as easily "teleport away" during a TK pinning or barrage. I'm still of the opinion that if Mewtwo's mind-control was enough to immediately lock down SHW class individuals he would've done so against some of the SHW characters he's fought and, frankly, D&D Tiamat would've been tough for even a high-level psionicist to do much to (and that's prior to her using her spells). Among the spells Tiamat can cast that would be of great help against Mewtwo are: Hold Person/Monster (whichever you feel he falls under), ice storm and the like (which get summoned in the area of the user's choice - bypassing the TK bubble and being directly summoned in Mewtwo's "space", for example), Polymorphs, Feeblemind (hard to be a great psionicist when you have the mind of a baby), and her natural ability to go etheral (further protection against TK locks). Eventually she is going to just overpower or by-pass Mewtwo's abilities to get to the relatively frail creature inside and once that happens, the Queen of Dragons rules the tournament.
Vote: Tiamat
Did Tiamat cast magical spells in the show?
deadalus13
04/04/2005, 11:09
I believe that Mewtwo's shields will protect him pretty well from Tiamat's breath weapons. I also believe that it will be difficult for Mewtwo to affect Tiamat's mind directly. So you have two very powerful opponent's who have a great amount of durability. They are both geniuses, although Tiamat has the edge when it comes to experience.
Magic is what tips the battle though. Tiamat has shown the ability on the show of casting spells as powerful as Earthquake. She should easily cast lower level spells like Magic Missile, which is pure magical energy that unerringly hits its target. While each missile does not do a lot of damage, she should be able to fire multiple missiles at once, and since they are pure magic they should go right through Mewtwo's shields. Magic Missile is a first level spell and is but one option for Tiamat. Spells like Polymorph Other, Disintegrate (which works to take down force fields), and even Sleep provide Tiamat with some offensive options that Mewtwo will have a difficult time dealing with. She should also have some good defensive options like Mirror Image and Improved Invisibility. Even assuming that Mewtwo has some kind of natural defense against magical attacks that effect the mind like Confusion, various Charm spells, and various Illusions, Mewtwo will be at a disadvantage in this battle.
While some people might argue that Tiamat did not generally use her spells in combat in the show, this can easily be explained. She had no need for spells most of the time in the show. Her breath weapons and basic attacks were enough to take down most people. She has shown the ability to use spells though and when it comes down to a battle where she needs them to win, she is smart enough to use all of the arsensal she has available.
My vote goes to Tiamat.
Rokk_Krinn
04/04/2005, 11:45
Originally posted by MSU
Did Tiamat cast magical spells in the show?
Yep. We also frequently saw her "teleport without error" ability (usually when she'd first appear). My favourite "spell episode" of Tiamat's involved her absolutely demolishing an area by inciting earthquakes, magma eruptions, etc. (though there were other spell usages in the series).
Gonna vote for Tiamat, she is the supreme evil dragon, none others even come close. Her magical prowress alone is enough to drop MewTwo, and even if for some reason that dosent work she has simple physical might to fall back on. Sorry Mewtwo, was a good run, but you cant beat the goddess of evil dragons.
Again, Mew Two can stay safely away and attack her from afar while Tiamat needs some what close combat. There is no reason why Mew Two will engage Tiamat up close. Mew Two can do this from afar and win, why would he spoil his victory by doing something stupid?
Originally posted by deadalus13
Magic is what tips the battle though. Tiamat has shown the ability on the show of casting spells as powerful as Earthquake. She should easily cast lower level spells like Magic Missile, which is pure magical energy that unerringly hits its target. While each missile does not do a lot of damage, she should be able to fire multiple missiles at once, and since they are pure magic they should go right through Mewtwo's shields. Magic Missile is a first level spell and is but one option for Tiamat. Spells like Polymorph Other, Disintegrate (which works to take down force fields), and even Sleep provide Tiamat with some offensive options that Mewtwo will have a difficult time dealing with. She should also have some good defensive options like Mirror Image and Improved Invisibility. Even assuming that Mewtwo has some kind of natural defense against magical attacks that effect the mind like Confusion, various Charm spells, and various Illusions, Mewtwo will be at a disadvantage in this battle.
My vote goes to Tiamat.
Again, Tiamat needs to be relatively close since all these spells have a limited range. Why would Mew Two get near her when he can stay afar?? He affected weather systems across the world...he has a far range. He can stay safely away, shutting down Tiamat and if she gets close, he can fly away.
Rokk_Krinn
04/04/2005, 13:29
Why wouldn't Tiamat just use her "Teleport without error" ability to get close to Mewtwo? Sure, he can then port away, but then she does the same..over and over. Her clairvoyance/audience spells - backed by her dragon and devil senses (and telepathy) - will let her keep tracking Mewtwo to bring the battle to him. Eventually it comes down to a fight of stamina and guess who has it there?
For that matter, what good is chucking debris or TK bolts at a being that can be etheral at will?
Originally posted by Jawapimp
Based on what ca551u5 said, as well as the idea that Mewtwo's sheilds are tough to break, I give the win to the pokemon.
Mewtwo for the belt!
But we dont even know that MTs TK shields will even work against Tiamts magical onslaught. Im not saying theyll go right through, but against someone who is NOT used to fighting magical being, especially those at a Lesser God level, I am saying Tiamats breath weapons will hit MTs shields like NOTHING he has ever faced. Not to mention Tiamat own physical durability is LOADS more impressive than Mewtwos.
Originally posted by MSU
Again, Mew Two can stay safely away and attack her from afar while Tiamat needs some what close combat. There is no reason why Mew Two will engage Tiamat up close. Mew Two can do this from afar and win, why would he spoil his victory by doing something stupid?
How can Mewtwo constantly stay aay and keep his distance from Tiamat? Tiamat, like most dragons, can fly and is quite agile in the air for her size (as shown many times chasing down Venger on his Nightmare) Not to mention with 5 heads she could literally attack in 5 different directions all at once.
Tiamat - 10 votes
Mewtwo - 9 votes
Originally posted by DTM
How can Mewtwo constantly stay aay and keep his distance from Tiamat? Tiamat, like most dragons, can fly and is quite agile in the air for her size (as shown many times chasing down Venger on his Nightmare) Not to mention with 5 heads she could literally attack in 5 different directions all at once.
Because Mew Two can sense and attack her while Tiamat has to sense, teleport and then attack, its like three separate actions. Mew Two will always be one step ahead of Tiamat because he will know what she is thinking. When Tiamat does get close, Mew Two gets away, and while he is flying away, can still attack with his shielding up.
So MT just gets away, without Tiamat following him, blasting with 5 heads as she does so?
Rokk_Krinn
04/04/2005, 15:35
Or, as noted previously, going etheral meaning Mewtwo's blasts are going through her anyway? :)
Cryomancer
04/04/2005, 16:03
Dang...DTM beat me to my arguement. I dont buy that MewTwo can just constantly keep enough range to stay out of Tiamats attacks. The shileds probably are going to hold up pretty well for Mew but how well will they hold up against all 5 breath weapons at the same time which Tiamat can do....Im guessing not well. Tiamat has shown enough magic andvariety to overcme. I vote Tiamat
Originally posted by DTM
So MT just gets away, without Tiamat following him, blasting with 5 heads as she does so?
Mew Two knows she is coming...his attack distance is much farther then hers. Why would he wait? He is not going to TK objects into her, that would do no good. And he is pretty fast and agile as a flier.
Originally posted by Cryomancer
Dang...DTM beat me to my arguement. I dont buy that MewTwo can just constantly keep enough range to stay out of Tiamats attacks. The shileds probably are going to hold up pretty well for Mew but how well will they hold up against all 5 breath weapons at the same time which Tiamat can do....Im guessing not well. Tiamat has shown enough magic andvariety to overcme. I vote Tiamat
As I stated earlier for DTM, why is Mew Two standing still? He is not going to TK things into her, he is going to attack her with his psychic powers, the one thing she doesn't have a strong resistance too (I am sure she has some resistance, but Mew Two's powers are very advanced, enough to take down multiple beings at once, control the earth's weather systems, and almost turn Mew into stone if Ash hasn't gotten in the way...stupid kid). He doesn't need to be close to her to do this. He is weak against ghost and bug pokemon (or ghost and bug attacks, not lightning, not grass, not fire, not ice). His shielding can withstand the abilities of the pokemon, I am sure they can withstand the breath weapons if Mew Two is stupid enough to get that close to her. He is not. Mew Two will fight this afar.
Big differnce in power between any other pokemon and the Goddess of all dragons.
just wanted to clear something up from an earlier post of mine.
i had asked my wife a pokemon question, "whats strong against psychic?"
she looked at her chart in her book
and she accidentally gave me what psychic is strong against.
it was a mistake, and i apologise.
while i understand what rando is saying, without replying to the "leaps of logic" comment.
i just simply don't agree that a shield that has never faced a magical attack, would react the same to a magical attack as it would to a normal one.
magic isn't just making something +1.
magic bends rules by it's very nature.
a regular red dragon's fire breath may very well just be a little hotter than normal fire.
but in my mind, tiamat, being the queen of all dragons, the most powerful of her race, would make her d&d's version of a legendary creature.
her breath weapon would be, imo exponentially more powerful than a normal dragons breath weapon.
mewtwo's shield while powerful against pokemon's attacks (and honestly i don't remember him fighting at all in the series... so i'm basing this off the movie)... they weren't exactly amazing pokemon he was facing.
a charizard, a blastoise, a venusaur, onyx, alakazam a garados and some others.
while powerful pokemon in their own right... mewtwo wasn't exactly fighting legendary pokemon.
just mew.
and zero magical pokemon.
mewtwo's shields aren't completely solid.... light gets through, sound gets through.
would intense heat?
would intense cold?
does mewtwo exist in a vacuum while inside is shield or does he need to breath air while in there?
would poison gas get through it along with the oxygen he needs to breath?
i know i made a mistake earlier stating that poison was strong against psychic... it's not, but psychic pokemon still take full damage from poison attacks. it's not lessened any.
i'm still just not convinced that his shields will hold against magical attacks, especially coming from a creature as powerful as tiamat.
protectorate
04/04/2005, 21:45
Okay, I don't see Tiamat's breath weapons as being any more powerful than any of the other superdestructive instant death attacks that all the other SHW characters have been launching. Meaning that MTs shield should be able to hold for at least limited amounts of time.
Just because the attacks are generated by magic does not grant them strange, passes through sheild abilities. Tiamat breaths fire on a knight, the fire desn't just pass through the armor and roast the knight, it melts the armor and knight both. MTs shield is supposed to be awesomely powerful, give it the credit it deserves.
On the flip side, Tiamat CAN cause spell effects in designated locations, effectively bypassing MTs shield.
Tiamat can turn etheral, but she's not going to spend the entire match that way. When you are etheral the physical world can't affect you... and you can't affect the physical world.
Both characters fly, both characters teleport. Any time they get in any form of trouble they are going to simply teleport somewhere else in the arena.
So who gets tired first?
Rokk_Krinn
04/04/2005, 21:55
Originally posted by protectorate
Tiamat can turn etheral, but she's not going to spend the entire match that way. When you are etheral the physical world can't affect you... and you can't affect the physical world.
Both characters fly, both characters teleport. Any time they get in any form of trouble they are going to simply teleport somewhere else in the arena.
So who gets tired first?
Certain spells will allow Tiamat to affect the physical world while etheral.
As for the "who gets tired first", that's a point I was trying to make earlier: when it beomes a battle of "stamina', I'm giving this to the gargantuan immortal Queen of Dragons (and Lady of the First Plane of Hell) over the Pokemon (who, all things considered, did not have "high physical attributes" in his plus column).
i don't recall mewtwo teleporting. maybe i missed that part of the movie.
I thought he teleported in the cartoon for short distances...am I wrong?
like i said before, i don't even remember him in the cartoon.
he may have in the movie, i just don't remember him doing it.
if you go by the game, teleport isn't a move he can learn.
Teleport is a psychic Poke'mon technique... almost all Psychic Poke'mon know it, so it is not a stretch to say Mewtwo has it. I beleive he used it once or twice in the series, but he really prefered to fly as to teleport. Mind you, Mewtwo is FAST, and if he feels the need to, he will teleport away from Tiamat.
Originally posted by jedah_s
like i said before, i don't even remember him in the cartoon.
he may have in the movie, i just don't remember him doing it.
if you go by the game, teleport isn't a move he can learn.
Thats really odd, considering his genetic mother can learn all the TM moves...
teleport is a psychic move... but according to his movelist in the fire red/leaf green strategy guide... it's not listed as a move that he can learn.
(page 134)
I'd have thought the ability to cast spells, as well as physical
and magical attacks, would make bypassing the shield fairly
easy, as they could have direct effect.
Tiamat to win.
Originally posted by Poring
Teleport is a psychic Poke'mon technique... almost all Psychic Poke'mon know it, so it is not a stretch to say Mewtwo has it.
i'm checking this, and so far this is pretty false.
out of 44 psychic pokemon here's who has teleport or can learn
abra/kadabra/alakazam (abra comes with it and you can keep it)
natu/xatu (starts with, can keep it)
kirla/gardevoir (confusing pokedex entry, the first form can't get it, but level 1 evolved versions may be able to)
claydol
thats hardly almost all of them.
but mew, lugia, celebi and jirachi i can't find movelists for.
also, the pokemon ability teleport is not a combat ability...
you can teleport back to the last pokemon center you were at.
if you do it during a battle you run away.
Dalandow
04/04/2005, 23:08
Originally posted by Rando
I vote for Mewtwo.
Mewtwo has a couple of singificant advantages here. One si that he has true flight, as opposed to flying with wings, this makes him more maneuverable and probably much faster, it is also easy for someone with telekinetics to disrupt winged flight a good shove at the right part of the wing would send the flyer out of control, it's like tripping someone. This, plus teleportation will allow Mewtwo to prevent Tiamat from ever reaching close combat unless Mewtwo wants her too. Tiamat's most damageing attack (her breath weapons) are particulalry ineffective against a forcefield, the acid and gas just won't do anything to a forcefield, it isn't matter and can't be melted like that and doesn't breath, fire won't burn it unless it is flammable for some illogical reason, and cold also won't prove very effective, no molecules to slow down, the electricity may prove effective but that is a huge blow to Tiamat's offensive abilities. Most of the good whammy spells that Tiamat could call upon are mental in nature the direct damage is all worse than her breath weapons at her level, and the more brutal insta-kills are too high level for her, so even if Mewtwo's magical resistance is wanting (I think there is magic in Pokemon, not sure) then his psychic nature should pick up the slack. Just like in the last match Mewtwo's psychic powers give him a significant advantage over Tiamat that she has no ready answer for, Tiamat has no special resistance against psychic power (or any of his attacks really, they aren't magic) and the mental powers that Mewtwo possess give him a distince range and tactical advantage, they allow him to keep track of Tiamat, peek in on her plans, attack her from farther away than she can attack him, and bypass her physcial defenses. Again Tiamat has to force Mewtwo into a shooting war Mewtwo doesn't have to be in one to win.
I agree, I vote Mewtwo for the win.
LittleApril
04/04/2005, 23:26
Im gonna vote for Tiamat, i dont think mew-two fought anybody nearly strong enough on the show for him to have even made it to the finals. I think alot of what he does is against pokemon of much lesser power levels. So i dont think its gonna work as well here. Tiamat trumps him with vast magical, physical and mental capabilities. (the two are pretty equal in the mental part, but Tiamat owns the other two)
I'm gonna set in a vote for Mewtwo.
Tiamat is a lesser god, not a full god, meaning that she is not limitlessly powerful. Tiamat is very powerful, and highly resistant to magic and physical attacks. However, Mental attacks are all Mewtwo is going to be using. Ethereal is great, and all, but I don't think it's going to stop an attack on the mind.
As for Mewtwo's relative power levels... Yeah, it's more powerful than almost all of the others. Which is not to say that Charizard, Venusaur, Blastoise, or the others are weak... Well, maybe Onix... But, tose are some of the stronger "common pokémon"out there. Mewtwo would rock the socks off of many other legendaries.
He can and will stay out of the range of Tiamat, and the Breath weapons are less of a big deal, due to Mewtwo's higher defenses and techniques which stop special attacks (which the breath weapons are). Plus, he's psychic, and thus can read minds, to know where not to be, albeit to a limited degree.
Tiamat won't be able to make use of Mewtwo's lower defense, due to Mewtwo's high speed.(Third highest in the original game, still up there in current ones.)
I see this fight going in Mewtwo's favor most of the time.
Tiamat - 13 votes
Mewtwo - 11 votes
Is this match even still going on? Well if it is then I'll comment on Mewtwo's teleportation: In Smash Brothers they have little bios for all the character's (as well as various others includeing most Pokemon) as you win each trophy, Mew's says he has information on every Pokemon in the world in his cell structure and that he can use all their abilities. As Mewtwo is a clone of Mew I assume this applies to him as well, ergo if any Pokemon can teleport so can Mewtwo. Normally I'd disdain refrencing Smash Brothers but seeing as how we are useing the D&D players handbook and Pokemon startegy guides I figure what the heck.
P.S. In Smash Brothers Mewtwo is playable and can teleport.
And its a close one, only two votes separate the competitors.
Well since this is apprently still going on I'll comment on some stuff.
In D&D an Ethereal entity cannot intereact with the physical world, Tiamat cannot attack and be Ethereal if she wants to affect the real world, she must be physical there. It is also too high level a spell for her to cast, unless she has the ability (and it isn't amongst her abiltiies as a demon) then she can't even do it, and even if she could she has limited spell selection she can remain Ethereal for a little while even if she can get that way at all (which she can't). It isn't an effective defense.
Tiamat has no innate scrying abilties (Telepathy doesn't work as a means of finding things it is only a means of communication with stuff you know is there and has a far more limited range than Mewtwo's). As such she can only find Mewtwo a number of times equal to the scrying spells she has memorized (and as a 5th level spell max that isn't many, if any) Mewtwo can avoid her indefiently (even without teleportation).
In my mind Mewtwo wins a stamina game. He flys essentially effortlessly, and in the movie he created a storm the effects of which eventually built to the point that they were felt all over the world, without affecting the area he was in, he stopped ais storm with equal ease, he could reproduce the same effect here and be battering Tiamat constantly while all the while simply not being around, so it isn't a pure avoid battle Mewtwo is still affecting Tiamat (and a windstrom will affect her means of flight much more than his) while all Tiamt is doing is keeping Mewtwo moveing.
Don't think that because Mewtwo is from Pokemon that he is from a weaker universe, he isn't. There is a pokmon that can travel through time, another that grants wishes, another that can turn the Earth to crystal just by willing it, and another whose abilites are whatever a girl linked to him believe they are. Those are all unique, but so is Mewtwo, he is not just some cat that lives in a ball.
I don't understand why the range argument is even an issue. Even if Tiamat could actually match speeds with Mewtwo he could disrupt her flight easily even a weak telekinetic shove to one of her wings would force her out of control and require her to break pursuit to get back in contro, of her flight, it is a simple matter of leverage and how wings work. Tiamat can't do the same to Mewtwo. In addition Mewtwo never even needs to get within sight of Tiamat he can sense her menatlly, and if he chooses to mount an attack from miles away he can he only needs to enter a shooting battle if he wants to, and he isn't know for poor tactical decisions.
protectorate
04/05/2005, 14:01
Rando brings up a point that I hadn't thought of before.
A arena encompasing storm created by Mewtwo would severely hamper Tiamat's movement or ground her entirely. Even if part of her flight is magically based (which given her size has to be te case) she would still be fighting downward air thrusts and spend most of her time and attention just on staying in the air.
If Tiamat is more or less stationary Mewtwo should be able to pound on her at his greater range, possibly without her being able to retaliate since she needs to actually SEE him, while he is not share that limitation. Even if Tiamat starts teleporting around the arena at random Mewtwo should easily be able to stay away.
Mewtwo for the win. (I'm agreeing with Rando? What is the world coming too?)
Is this match still going on??? Sure it is, I didnt pop on and declare a winner as yet, now did I? :p
With Tiamat only leading Mewtwo by a single vote, how can this battle NOT still be going on.
Nonetheless, this battle ends tomorrow this time, so you all have just a single day to support your guy or cast your vote.
Originally posted by Rando
Is this match even still going on? Well if it is then I'll comment on Mewtwo's teleportation: In Smash Brothers they have little bios for all the character's (as well as various others includeing most Pokemon) as you win each trophy, Mew's says he has information on every Pokemon in the world in his cell structure and that he can use all their abilities. As Mewtwo is a clone of Mew I assume this applies to him as well, ergo if any Pokemon can teleport so can Mewtwo. Normally I'd disdain refrencing Smash Brothers but seeing as how we are useing the D&D players handbook and Pokemon startegy guides I figure what the heck.
P.S. In Smash Brothers Mewtwo is playable and can teleport.
as i stated earlier...
going by the pokemon game (which is what the cartoon is based on.)
out of the 44 psychic pokemon, anywhere from 8 to 12 can learn it, or already have it.
mewtwo cannot teleport.
mewtwo cannot learn teleport.
if the pokemon cartoon were based off super smash brothers, i'd assume that would count for something.
Well jedah, if you want to play it by the video game, then Mewtwo must know Recover, a very useful tactic that allows him to Recover his health from halfway to full.
Not to mention that in the game Mewtwo had some fantastic defense and hit points. I was one of the few who tried to capture Mewtwo without a Master Ball (What a pain it was I tell you.)
So if you insist on outsourcing the game (Which is only fair since Tiamat is getting lots of D&D support) Then Mewtwo is now considerably more durable then people claim him to be (Most people think he is physically weak) and has a tactic that allows him to heal faster than water if you know what I mean.
Originally posted by jedah_s
as i stated earlier...
going by the pokemon game (which is what the cartoon is based on.)
out of the 44 psychic pokemon, anywhere from 8 to 12 can learn it, or already have it.
mewtwo cannot teleport.
mewtwo cannot learn teleport.
if the pokemon cartoon were based off super smash brothers, i'd assume that would count for something.
Considering that Mewtwo is a unique personality that would ruin anyone that tried to capture him I'd say that the cartoon isn't based too directly on the game. Regardless Mewtwo doesn't even need teleport to keep away from Tiamat, he can do so without it.
I don't know if this means anything, but in the game "Super Smash Brothers Melee", Mewtwo has the ability to teleport. Why give it to him if he can't do it? But, this probably doesn't count as a reliable source does it?
Uknown352
04/05/2005, 23:47
Well I will vote for Mewtwo. mainly just cause I think his supporters have better arguments.
And that folks...is a tie.
Both sides have given their arguments on why their competitor will win.
Read Rando's, my own, and others reasons why mew Two will win.
Read Rokk, DTM, and other's reasons why Tiamat will win.
Once you have read both, you should see that Mew Two, with the shielding, the speed, the cunning, the agility, weather manipulation, and the psychic attack that Tiamat has no defense to that Mew Two will win more than 50% of the time.
Its not all the time....just Mew Two will win more than 50% of the time.
Originally posted by MSU
Once you have read both, you should see that Mew Two, with the shielding, the speed, the cunning, the agility, weather manipulation, and the psychic attack that Tiamat has no defense to that Mew Two will win more than 50% of the time.
How long do you honestly think MewTwo would last without
the shielding?
And considering it has been noted that Tiamat is a spell caster
as well as having inately magical attacks, why would you
believe that the shield is impervious?
toDIEisGAIN
04/06/2005, 02:26
To tell you the truth i have never even heard of Tiamat. Both sides of the argument have been excelent. However, im gonna take reference from a few comics i do know. I cant remember what issue it was from but batman has been known to have resistance to lesser forms of mind trickery (not control, more like a Jedi Mind trick). If a human (although superhighly trained) can have the will power to resist lesser forms of MC then i would think Tiamat would have enough willpower to fend of Mew-Two's psychic attacks for the most part. The magic factor is the key. Tiamat is a lot more than just the elemental attacks (or so i have read ;) ). Mew-Two cant stop magical attacks with his mind. And i would also like to conclude this with the small fact that i came into this argument bias. Mew Two is not my favorite character, from a series that is not my favorite....if you catch my drift.:grin:
Tiamat for the Win
Mewtwo's shields are pure force, magical or not, nothing short of the most extraordinary power can even put a dent in them. The shield isn't going to be negated just because Tiamat is an innately magical being.
Oh, and as for Etherealness, or Disintegrate, or Feeblemind, those are all spells above her previously established cap.
Originally posted by NotYou
How long do you honestly think MewTwo would last without
the shielding?
And considering it has been noted that Tiamat is a spell caster
as well as having inately magical attacks, why would you
believe that the shield is impervious?
Not too long good thing he has it. Unless he is staying away from Tiamat.
Lack of any real evidence supporting the claim that Tiamat's attacks would bypass it as well as a pretty good working knowledge of how Tiamat's powers work.
I think I'm going to vote Mewtwo. Psychically, I see a lot he can do indirectly (he makes storms, she still uses her physical wings to fly), as well as directly (the obvious), plus he's a bugger to hit.
On the mental side, having 5 brains might be something of a disadvantage, as each one won't have the mental defenses a single mind in a being of such power would normally possess. It might provide some edge to her- she can still fight even if she has just one- but overall I think it benefits him, especially if he targets them in priority of threat and reduces the amount of stuff thrown at him.
Overall, power goes to Tiamat, but genius smarts combined with speed and some really versatile and skilled psionics in every catagory give Mewtwo a small edge to win.
And we still have a tie...wow
For those who doubt Mew Two's psychic attacks, Tiamat has shown no resistance to psychic attacks. Non magical, psychic attacks. Mew Two effectively shut down hundreded of pokemon from using their powers. I think he can effectively handle Tiamat in the same fashion. Again, as I have said this before, Tiamat has to get close to Mew Two to hurt him, Mew Two can stay safely away. Sure, Tiamat can teleport in, Mew Two will sense she is coming and then fly away. Mew Two is more agile then Tiamat, can hold his shielding up while flying and using his psychic ability, and can sense what Tiamat is about to do.
Characters with High Willpower are ALWAYS shown to have resistances against mental assaults (as Batman resists the Scarecrow mental mind games and Superman resists Brainiacs mental bolts - and by resists I DONT mean immunity, but in the end they are able to overcome such mental powers just with willpower alone), and I would gather the Lesser God, Ruler of a Plane of Hell, Queen of Evil Dragons, Tiamat would have Willpower to at the least equal Mewtwos own.
In her own world only Dungeon Master is more powerful, and he is a Cosmic Being. Like MSU, I believe this to be a good final battle, but in the end Tiamat certainly wins more than not (in my mind)
But alas, were at a TIE. Since I was going to start the Mixed Team TOC today, the next voter to cast his vote will DECIDE the fate of the entire SHW TOC and pick its winner.
14 Votes A Piece, which will be the ultimate winner in this TOC, Mewtwo or Tiamat?
resistances doesn't equal immunities. Eventually she would succumb to such attacks, and as she has no way locate Mewtwo or stop him from makeing them that means she will eventually get worn down, their relative willpowers are immaterial (although I'm not sure why being some demon that was born tougher than everyone else makes you a bastion of willpower) Mewtwo is the one in the position to make mental attacks. Tiamat is also not the second most powerful entity in the world, especially considering that without a requirment for magical weapons to hurt her she can be damaged by just normal people with pitchforks.
She can teleport without error, meaning she can be on Mewtwo the second he himself teleports away (if he can in fact teleport). How is MT going to keep his distance from a beast such as this who can appear anywhere he goes? Is he going to spend this entire match teleporting away, and if so, where does his vastly powerful offensive mental powers come into play then?
She doesn't know where he's going to go to, and she has to find him in the first place. Once Mewtwo is gone from her field of vision she can't find him without exhausting a scrying spell she might not even have memorized in the first place, once those are gone she has no way to find him, teleport or no. Additionally a litle known feature of the teleport and teleport without error spells is that one must teleport onto a solid mass, if Mewtwo is flying then Tiamat simply cannot teleport to him.
She can teleport without error, doesnt that mean she can magially think of her target and just teleport there? And the only source were even getting that Mewtwo can teleport at all is from a video game? D&D and Pokemon books are one thing, they are the source for the cartoon, or vice versa, meaning they are pretty much the same thing. Video games are known for adding in cool powers to characters to make the game more interesting, so if the Books for Pokemon say Mewtwo cannot teleport, and weve never seen him teleport in the cartoon, I wouldnt put much stock in his teleporting abilities at all.
Rokk_Krinn
04/06/2005, 15:25
Originally posted by Rando
She doesn't know where he's going to go to, and she has to find him in the first place. Once Mewtwo is gone from her field of vision she can't find him without exhausting a scrying spell she might not even have memorized in the first place, once those are gone she has no way to find him, teleport or no. Additionally a litle known feature of the teleport and teleport without error spells is that one must teleport onto a solid mass, if Mewtwo is flying then Tiamat simply cannot teleport to him.
Except in the cartoon - and the toon takes precedence - we saw Tiamat do aerial teleportation, meaning they "ignored" the solid mass requirement. We also saw her use her etheral power - which is listed under her personal listing, not as a general "devil" power or such - to phase through solid walls and the like. However, as a devil - and being monstrously resistant to elemental attacks anyway - she's immune to electrical and fire attacks, meaning zapping her with lightning from a storm means squat. We won't even go into how many HD she counts for saves against mental attacks (higher than many deities). :)
As for scrying spells, if she sets herself with sensory spells like clairvoyance they last for quite awhile. Certainly longer than the battle.
Besides, weren't there arguements running around that coming from a non-magical world (and Pokemon are scientific creatures - ask Prof. Oak :) ) makes you less resistant to magic than someone from the D&D universe? :) (And, no, I don't necessarily back that - just stirring the pot. :) )
Avatar Jack
04/06/2005, 15:41
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Besides, weren't there arguements running around that coming from a non-magical world (and Pokemon are scientific creatures - ask Prof. Oak :) ) makes you less resistant to magic than someone from the D&D universe? :) (And, no, I don't necessarily back that - just stirring the pot. :) )
Well, what in the D&D universe would have perpared Tiamat for Mewtwo's psychic onslaught? Mewtwo dealt with teleportation, fire, electric attacks, poison gas, acid, and a patheon of different types of attacks. Though Tiamat is magical, it does not mean that her powers are any different than non-magical powers of the same type. Their source is different, but the end result is the same; fire is fire (I understand this was said before, I'm just recapping).
Dragon fire is generally considered magical, and will simply pack more of a punch and be harder to defend against than regular fire.
Well, since we have another full day to go here, any votes in that time will be counted. Lets hope this tie is BROKEN by tomorrow. :)
Avatar Jack
04/06/2005, 15:49
........... Alright. I'll go with that. Still, how can she hope to contend with Mewtwo's (massively, god-like powered) psychic abilities. In the movie, he did shut down dozens of Pokemon who were easily HW's with a thought. A thought! And he still had power left over to face Mew.
Rokk_Krinn
04/06/2005, 15:50
Originally posted by Avatar Jack
Well, what in the D&D universe would have perpared Tiamat for Mewtwo's psychic onslaught? Mewtwo dealt with teleportation, fire, electric attacks, poison gas, acid, and a patheon of different types of attacks. Though Tiamat is magical, it does not mean that her powers are any different than non-magical powers of the same type. Their source is different, but the end result is the same; fire is fire (I understand this was said before, I'm just recapping).
High-level psionic powers are present in the D&D universe. Whether it's Mind Flayer attacks or the psionic abilities of beings like Dispater, they're more than just a "little present". I'd say that would mean Tiamat's had some experience with psionic abilities. :)
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Except in the cartoon - and the toon takes precedence - we saw Tiamat do aerial teleportation, meaning they "ignored" the solid mass requirement. We also saw her use her etheral power - which is listed under her personal listing, not as a general "devil" power or such - to phase through solid walls and the like. However, as a devil - and being monstrously resistant to elemental attacks anyway - she's immune to electrical and fire attacks, meaning zapping her with lightning from a storm means squat. We won't even go into how many HD she counts for saves against mental attacks (higher than many deities). :)
As for scrying spells, if she sets herself with sensory spells like clairvoyance they last for quite awhile. Certainly longer than the battle.
Besides, weren't there arguements running around that coming from a non-magical world (and Pokemon are scientific creatures - ask Prof. Oak :) ) makes you less resistant to magic than someone from the D&D universe? :) (And, no, I don't necessarily back that - just stirring the pot. :) )
The lighting isn't the important part of the storm the wind is, wind is much more damageing in a storm than lightning as you don't get hit by lightning very often. Again high saves don't make any difference eventually she will fail them (20 rounds tops in fact as a 1 always fails) and Mewtwo just keeps hammering. Claivoyance allows you to look in on a specicif spot that is either obvious or known, she sets herself up with that and she has accomplished nothing. If you saw her being etehreal then it is wasn't being ethereal, but some other power (as ethereal guys are on another plane you can't see them), if she was still there that won't protect her at all from mental stuff.
Those arguments also hinged upon the target not haveing mental powers and not being able to stay away from the caster (as the lions share of her save or dies are mental attacks, if her only means to win is haveing the 1 spell memorized that isn't and being able to somehow bring it to bear she is unlikely to win).
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
High-level psionic powers are present in the D&D universe. Whether it's Mind Flayer attacks or the psionic abilities of beings like Dispater, they're more than just a "little present". I'd say that would mean Tiamat's had some experience with psionic abilities. :)
Psionics was also a huge imbalancing issue when it was introduced because in D&D non-psionic characters have no defense against them while the reverse wasn't true.
The Red Baron
04/06/2005, 16:09
I am going to vote for taimat mewtwo is good but really taimat should win this on size and sheer brute force. my vote taimat. Also I need so number randomize so feel free to head over to the star wars toc theard if you would like to do it.
Originally posted by DTM
She can teleport without error, doesnt that mean she can magially think of her target and just teleport there? And the only source were even getting that Mewtwo can teleport at all is from a video game? D&D and Pokemon books are one thing, they are the source for the cartoon, or vice versa, meaning they are pretty much the same thing. Video games are known for adding in cool powers to characters to make the game more interesting, so if the Books for Pokemon say Mewtwo cannot teleport, and weve never seen him teleport in the cartoon, I wouldnt put much stock in his teleporting abilities at all.
Teleport requires you to teleport to a known location, either by visualisation or reference (i.e. 3 miles east) you can't do it according to person. The only source giving Tiamat the lions share of her powers is a role-playeing game, so what's the difference? If the only justification for the power were a special move I'd agree but since Smash Brothers also contains an encylopedic reference of biographical information for almost every character every created by Nintendo I consider it reasonably reliable (and Mew's entry says he can use any power any Pokemon can), more so than abilities in a game which will obviously be subject to game balance constraints. Regardless he doesn't need to teleport to stay away from Tiamat, he can do so with just flight and not directly engageing her.
Avatar Jack
04/06/2005, 16:12
Originally posted by The Red Baron
I am going to vote for taimat mewtwo is good but really taimat should win this on size and sheer brute force. my vote taimat. Also I need so number randomize so feel free to head over to the star wars toc theard if you would like to do it.
Dam.n
Size doesn't matter when it comes to psychic attacks
And Tiamat was around BEFORE psyionists and the like. This is a cartoon from the early 80s. She has shown NO resistances to psychic attacks. Even if she could resist them, Mew Two can keep hampering away FROM A SAFE DISTANCE. If she teleports, Mew Two knows that she is doing and start chugging along. She teleports again, Mew Two leaves again. I still don't see how Tiamat is going to get close to him when Mew Two knows what she is going to do when she does it. Mew Two will win this more than 50% of the time. There is no question in my mind about this. Mew Two has a bigger range (much, much bigger range) that any of Tiamat's spells.
The Red Baron
04/06/2005, 16:19
Avatar please explain your self
and from my knowledge mewtwo fights using energy like balls which I think wont be enough to finish taimet.
Avatar Jack
04/06/2005, 16:22
Originally posted by DTM
But alas, were at a TIE. Since I was going to start the Mixed Team TOC today, the next voter to cast his vote will DECIDE the fate of the entire SHW TOC and pick its winner.
14 Votes A Piece, which will be the ultimate winner in this TOC, Mewtwo or Tiamat?
Originally posted by The Red Baron
Avatar please explain your self
and from my knowledge mewtwo fights using energy like balls which I think wont be enough to finish taimet.
He does a lot more than that....Mew Two fights using his psychic attacks to shut down his opponents or weaken his opponents. the energy balls are from the Super Smash Brothers game...not a real indicator of what Mew Two can do. Mew Two can control weather over a LARGE area (the entire earth), has shielding, can fly, and can turn things into stone (which I am not sure he could do to Tiamat, but I am not sure how Mew Two turns things to stone, so maybe he could). Mew Two can also attack miles away, so he doesn't need to be close to Tiamat to execute his psychic attacks to shut her down. He also can do it to multiple foes at once (as evidenced in the movie).
also, nothing is over until DTM comes in and says its over! ;)
i'm not sure when mewtwo turned anyone to stone.
i know ash ran out between mew and mewtwo's attack, and the combined energy of the blast turned him to stone.
maybe a combined attack from mew and mewtwo counts as a single power for mewtwo.
i'm not really sure.
everyone keeps trumpeting the fact that tiamat has shown no resistance to psychic attacks in her cartoon, but continue to ignore the fact that mewtwo has shown no resistance to magical attacks in his.
i find that curious.
i'd still like an answer to my questions about mewtwo's shield.
can intense heat and intense cold can get through since light and sound can?
also if mewtwo breathes, and oxygen can pass through the shield, can tiamat's poison gas breath weapon pass through?
poison may not do extra damage to psychic pokemon, but they still take normal damage.
Not that it matters anymore as the match is now over but:
If Tiamat has no psychic resistance and Mewtwo has no magic resistance then Mewtwo wins because he has the far greater attack range with his psychic abilites and they will allow him to mandate a first strike. The range also give Mewtwo a defense: not being close enough to be a target. There is no escapeing the mental attacks.
The answer to all those questions is maybe. Mewtwo's shield is probably some combination of telekinetic fore and psychic energy. Can that stop heat, who knows? Can it stop fire? Absolutley, for the same reason a strong wind can, the answer is the same for poison gas. Can it stop intense cold, depends on if the force can stop the conduit for the cold, the logistics of that are beyond my scientific understanding, but given the sheer number of elemental attacks in the pokemon world I'd be suprised if Mewtwo were defenseless against cold, considering he and Mew apparently have every pokemon's abilties.
Originally posted by Rando
considering he and Mew apparently have every pokemon's abilties.
depending on what game you base him off of.
Originally posted by jedah_s
depending on what game you base him off of.
Or from what you learn from the movie and the TV show
absolutley, like him teleporting all over the place in the movie.
Rokk_Krinn
04/06/2005, 18:51
Well, it's over now but I never did hear an arguement as to what Mewtwo would do when a spell effect like Icestorm materialized within his bubble (as it appears within an area viewed by the caster it can actually pop up past his TK bubble). The intense cold and damage would slow him down from teleporting and likely KO him - his "storm protection" relied on his TK bubble. A "direct hit" from a storm that materialized within his enclosed area should take him down.
Just saying that for all the people saying Mewtwo instantly teleports away and is never touched (an arguement a lot of people never accepted with Pyron for some reason. ;) ).
Originally posted by Rando
Lack of any real evidence supporting the claim that Tiamat's attacks would bypass it as well as a pretty good working knowledge of how Tiamat's powers work.
Every time Rando insists on applying his facts and figures,
to D&D magic, I can't help thinking of the way Doom kicked
Reed's ### in Unthinkable, when Reed thought he could
quantify Doom's magic.
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Well, it's over now but I never did hear an arguement as to what Mewtwo would do when a spell effect like Icestorm materialized within his bubble (as it appears within an area viewed by the caster it can actually pop up past his TK bubble). The intense cold and damage would slow him down from teleporting and likely KO him - his "storm protection" relied on his TK bubble. A "direct hit" from a storm that materialized within his enclosed area should take him down.
Just saying that for all the people saying Mewtwo instantly teleports away and is never touched (an arguement a lot of people never accepted with Pyron for some reason. ;) ).
I think no one answered that argument because it is thought by the Mew Two supporters that Tiamat would never get that close enough to Mew Two to cast a spell. You cannot cast a spell if your target knows you are coming and gets away after you teleport in. And since Tiamat has a spell limit, there are only so many times that Tiamat gets before she runs out of options and Mew Two brings her down. You cannot cast a spell if your target is constantly out of range.
Dr.H.Quinn
04/06/2005, 23:23
Is this match still going on? Well, if I can still vote, I am putting a vote in for Mew Two. The Mew Two arguments make me think that Tiamat cannot win this. The psychic attacks and the distance factor. Mew Two for the win!
Originally posted by MSU
Size doesn't matter when it comes to psychic attacks
And Tiamat was around BEFORE psyionists and the like. This is a cartoon from the early 80s. She has shown NO resistances to psychic attacks. Even if she could resist them, Mew Two can keep hampering away FROM A SAFE DISTANCE. If she teleports, Mew Two knows that she is doing and start chugging along. She teleports again, Mew Two leaves again. I still don't see how Tiamat is going to get close to him when Mew Two knows what she is going to do when she does it. Mew Two will win this more than 50% of the time. There is no question in my mind about this. Mew Two has a bigger range (much, much bigger range) that any of Tiamat's spells.
Actually Psionics in D&D was around during the same set as Tiamat and the D&D cartoon.
Originally posted by Rando
Not that it matters anymore as the match is now over but:
If Tiamat has no psychic resistance and Mewtwo has no magic resistance then Mewtwo wins because he has the far greater attack range with his psychic abilites and they will allow him to mandate a first strike. The range also give Mewtwo a defense: not being close enough to be a target. There is no escapeing the mental attacks.
The answer to all those questions is maybe. Mewtwo's shield is probably some combination of telekinetic fore and psychic energy. Can that stop heat, who knows? Can it stop fire? Absolutley, for the same reason a strong wind can, the answer is the same for poison gas. Can it stop intense cold, depends on if the force can stop the conduit for the cold, the logistics of that are beyond my scientific understanding, but given the sheer number of elemental attacks in the pokemon world I'd be suprised if Mewtwo were defenseless against cold, considering he and Mew apparently have every pokemon's abilties.
To answer your first part, a post from me before I left for work:
Well, since we have another full day to go here, any votes in that time will be counted. Lets hope this tie is BROKEN by tomorrow.
Meaning, the match is still on, and a winner will be chosen first thing tomorrow morning.
Secondly, characters with Strong Willpower can and do all the time resist mental attacks, the same cannot be said for magical attacks. Can Batman resist being mind controlled using his unreal Will, sure. Can he use this same Will to resist the affects of magical fire or lightning, No Way.
There is a big difference between magical and mental attacks, one resistance can be hugely based on a characters Strength of Will, the other not so.
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Well, it's over now but I never did hear an arguement as to what Mewtwo would do when a spell effect like Icestorm materialized within his bubble (as it appears within an area viewed by the caster it can actually pop up past his TK bubble). The intense cold and damage would slow him down from teleporting and likely KO him - his "storm protection" relied on his TK bubble. A "direct hit" from a storm that materialized within his enclosed area should take him down.
Just saying that for all the people saying Mewtwo instantly teleports away and is never touched (an arguement a lot of people never accepted with Pyron for some reason. ;) ).
Why does everyone think this match is over, doesnt anyone read my posts? :) This match is good until tomorrow morning, so it aint over yet.
Originally posted by MSU
I think no one answered that argument because it is thought by the Mew Two supporters that Tiamat would never get that close enough to Mew Two to cast a spell. You cannot cast a spell if your target knows you are coming and gets away after you teleport in. And since Tiamat has a spell limit, there are only so many times that Tiamat gets before she runs out of options and Mew Two brings her down. You cannot cast a spell if your target is constantly out of range.
Why are you so sure Mewtwos flying speed is so much greater than Tiamats own? She was fast enough to match speeds with a Nightmare, and yet you think as soon as Tiamat flies or teleports in, MT simply ZIPS away and is way out of range. Whats stopping Tiamat from actually following him wherver he goes?
Originally posted by Dr.H.Quinn
Is this match still going on? Well, if I can still vote, I am putting a vote in for Mew Two. The Mew Two arguments make me think that Tiamat cannot win this. The psychic attacks and the distance factor. Mew Two for the win!
Again, a strong mind and will can resist most mental attacks, and Tiamat can fly just as Mewtwo can, so distance shouldnt be an issue to her.
Were TIED again, .....please somebody break the tie before tomorrow....please......(preferably by voting for Tiamat :) )
Again, a strong mind and will can resist most mental attacks, and Tiamat can fly just as Mewtwo can, so distance shouldnt be an issue to her.
Well, she flies with Wings, which isn't nearly as fast or manueverable as going whichever direction you want at extremely high speeds.
And traditionally, Tiamat has been potrayed as a collection of 5 comparatively weaker minds. She might be overall smart, but each head has an IQ corrisponding to the specific dragon type (so the Red one is the one who does the most work, while the white is comparatively dumb and vunerable).
Why are you so sure Mewtwos flying speed is so much greater than Tiamats own? She was fast enough to match speeds with a Nightmare, and yet you think as soon as Tiamat flies or teleports in, MT simply ZIPS away and is way out of range. Whats stopping Tiamat from actually following him wherver he goes?
He and Mew were doing high-speed manuevers back and forth at really impressive speed, and that was them focusing on moving around and getting advantage over each other. We've seen him go really really fast, and we haven't seen him try maxing his speed all-out in a strait light. When someone's going probably hundreds of mph when limited in a close-quarters dogfight, that speads of impressive speed.
In the cartoon series we saw he flying away from Giovanni's mansion after blowing it to kingdom come. It was quite simply a blue streak ripping across the sky, blink and he was gone.
deadalus13
04/07/2005, 06:14
What is there to keep Tiamat from going ethereal and waiting until Mewtwo is close enough for her to unleash on, before coming back into the material plane? Mewtwo will be unable to affect Tiamat at all while she is ethereal. She can cast defensive spells on herself while in her etheral form such as Mind Blank to protect her from mental attacks and Mirror Image to make herself harder to target. Taimat is able to look into the material plane and see Mewtwo. Once Mewtwo has flown circles around the place looking for Her, she can phase in and let loose. She is capable of firing a breath weapon or a spell from each head. She can combine these five attacks any way she wants; 4 breath weapons + 1 spell, 2 breath weapons + 3 spells, etc. So lets say she attacks with cold breath (trying to get the cold to penetrate even if the ice doesn't), poison gas breath (since air has to get through for Mewtwo to breathe), an area of effect spell like Ice Storm (cast inside Mewtwo's shiled), a spell that targets a person through sight like Slow Monster, and a spell that damages a person like Magic Missile. Once Tiamat has done her five attacks, she goes ethereal again mere moments after she appeared. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Well, it's over now but I never did hear an arguement as to what Mewtwo would do when a spell effect like Icestorm materialized within his bubble (as it appears within an area viewed by the caster it can actually pop up past his TK bubble). The intense cold and damage would slow him down from teleporting and likely KO him - his "storm protection" relied on his TK bubble. A "direct hit" from a storm that materialized within his enclosed area should take him down.
Just saying that for all the people saying Mewtwo instantly teleports away and is never touched (an arguement a lot of people never accepted with Pyron for some reason. ;) ).
Ice Strom has 2 forms one is an actual storm, it deals no damage but obscures vision and causes you to slip and not be able to move 50% of the time, as Mewtwo can leave the area effect without slipping and can detect stuff metnally this isn't that effective Tiamat can also throw it a very few times (if at all). The other form is a block of ice that falls on people and hurst them it is weight damage not cold damage, you couldn't form the block inside the shield and it wouldn't bypass it by falling on it (the damage is fairly trivial).
Originally posted by NotYou
Every time Rando insists on applying his facts and figures,
to D&D magic, I can't help thinking of the way Doom kicked
Reed's ### in Unthinkable, when Reed thought he could
quantify Doom's magic.
Two different universes. In D&D magic is very quantifiable, in the Marvel universe not so much.
PirateRoberts
04/07/2005, 06:49
Yo, i haven't been keeping close tabs on this since it was cartoons,but i know a little something about tiamat and she would kick the blazes out of mewtwo. I think shes faster,stronger,smarter and overall tougher. The pokemon may give a few good hits but not enough to challenge the mother of all dragons. I will vote for tiamat for the win in this final match!!!
Originally posted by DTM
Why are you so sure Mewtwos flying speed is so much greater than Tiamats own? She was fast enough to match speeds with a Nightmare, and yet you think as soon as Tiamat flies or teleports in, MT simply ZIPS away and is way out of range. Whats stopping Tiamat from actually following him wherver he goes?
A few things first off haveing seen Mewtwo fly there is no doubt in my mind he is faster. Secondly Tiamat flys on wings, if she starts chaseing him he can telekinetically shove her wing, even a mild attack like this will send her out of control, and force her to spend time recovering, makeing the attack doesn't slow Mewtwo at all. Third as a winged flyer Tiamat doesn't have total control over her maneuverability she can only turn a set amount without haveing to move forward more (this is why planes get behind one another in dog fights, beacause they can't just turn around), she has to circle, Mewtwo doesn't. If she starts following him he can just turn 90 or so degress and take of on a dime, she will have to circle to make the same turn.
PirateRoberts
04/07/2005, 06:55
She's big,but really,really fast. She'll just turn at a very high rate o speed. She could also just attack mewtwo while flying.
Originally posted by deadalus13
What is there to keep Tiamat from going ethereal and waiting until Mewtwo is close enough for her to unleash on, before coming back into the material plane? Mewtwo will be unable to affect Tiamat at all while she is ethereal. She can cast defensive spells on herself while in her etheral form such as Mind Blank to protect her from mental attacks and Mirror Image to make herself harder to target. Taimat is able to look into the material plane and see Mewtwo. Once Mewtwo has flown circles around the place looking for Her, she can phase in and let loose. She is capable of firing a breath weapon or a spell from each head. She can combine these five attacks any way she wants; 4 breath weapons + 1 spell, 2 breath weapons + 3 spells, etc. So lets say she attacks with cold breath (trying to get the cold to penetrate even if the ice doesn't), poison gas breath (since air has to get through for Mewtwo to breathe), an area of effect spell like Ice Storm (cast inside Mewtwo's shiled), a spell that targets a person through sight like Slow Monster, and a spell that damages a person like Magic Missile. Once Tiamat has done her five attacks, she goes ethereal again mere moments after she appeared. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
Whatever Rokk was refering to that allowed her to walk through walls had her still being visible on the material plane which means she hadn't gone to the ethereal plane, makeing her still detectable and vulnerable from the material (at least to mental attacks). She can't cast Mind Blank it is too high level. Mewtwo again never needs get close to Tiamat she can cast all the defensive spells she wants they will eventually run out and she will be no closer to finding her target. Magic Missle is just force any forcefield should block it easily (and the shield spell, a poor man's equivalent to a force field does), this again requires Tiamat to find Mewtwo somehow.
She's big,but really,really fast. She'll just turn at a very high rate o speed.
She's ok manueverable, but not nearly Mewtwo's level. Mewtwo can do a 100% reverse direction and be back at full speed in the opposite direction in under a second. Things with wings can't do that. Even a high-speed banking turn can't beat 'I can turn at 90+ degree angles at high speed just fine because I don't rely on aerodynamics and can 'thrust' in any direction'.
PirateRoberts
04/07/2005, 07:34
Originally posted by Q99
She's big,but really,really fast. She'll just turn at a very high rate o speed.
She's ok manueverable, but not nearly Mewtwo's level. Mewtwo can do a 100% reverse direction and be back at full speed in the opposite direction in under a second. Things with wings can't do that. Even a high-speed banking turn can't beat 'I can turn at 90+ degree angles at high speed just fine because I don't rely on aerodynamics and can 'thrust' in any direction'.
I disagree, i think that she could turn in the same time he could which directions cause she's about 4 times total faster.
Originally posted by PirateRoberts
I disagree, i think that she could turn in the same time he could which directions cause she's about 4 times total faster.
That's physically impossible for anything that flys useing just a single pair of wings. Even jets can't do that and they have jet engines. This is the reason attack helicopters were invented.
Rokk_Krinn
04/07/2005, 10:38
Originally posted by DTM
Why does everyone think this match is over, doesnt anyone read my posts? :) This match is good until tomorrow morning, so it aint over yet.
Probably because we also read the post where you said the VERY NEXT VOTE is the tie-breaker. :P See, we do read all of your posts - you just need to remember how many posts you make. ;) *jk*
Rokk_Krinn
04/07/2005, 10:44
Originally posted by Rando
Whatever Rokk was refering to that allowed her to walk through walls had her still being visible on the material plane which means she hadn't gone to the ethereal plane, makeing her still detectable and vulnerable from the material (at least to mental attacks).
They used to show ghosts and spectres - beings on the ethereal plane - as "visible" as well. That's just how they illustrated it on the show - they probably figured it wasn't very exciting to have ethereal creatures be unviewable by the kids watching the toon. I would still venture that the times we saw Tiamat essentially "materializing" through a solid object she was etheral/phasing. Not to mention it is explicately stated as an ability of her's: Tiamat can go astral or etheral at _will_.
Originally posted by Q99
Again, a strong mind and will can resist most mental attacks, and Tiamat can fly just as Mewtwo can, so distance shouldnt be an issue to her.
Well, she flies with Wings, which isn't nearly as fast or manueverable as going whichever direction you want at extremely high speeds.
And traditionally, Tiamat has been potrayed as a collection of 5 comparatively weaker minds. She might be overall smart, but each head has an IQ corrisponding to the specific dragon type (so the Red one is the one who does the most work, while the white is comparatively dumb and vunerable).
I think you are mistaken Q. Tiamat isnt like Devastator, a combination of multiple minds and personailities, she is all of one mind, and I dont think Ive ever seen a show with her heads arguing with one another, in the least.
And sure she has wings, but shes a 60 foot long, Lesser God, Queen of Dragons BEAST, who can and does keep up with Nightmares (ala Vengers mount) so even if MT is faster, I highly doubt itll be a matter of Flash v Hulk here. Tiamat keeps up with Nightmares fine, Im sure she can do something similiar to MT when he retreats (or simply teleport right in his face)
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Probably because we also read the post where you said the VERY NEXT VOTE is the tie-breaker. :P See, we do read all of your posts - you just need to remember how many posts you make. ;) *jk*
Soooo, do I really need to tell you that my LAST post takes precedence over a post I did earlier? You do understand that these posts are made in order, right RK? :p
Well, and I believe thats it.
By a SINGLE VOTE, it seems Tiamat has defeated Mewtwo, and become the TV Cartoon SHW Grand Champion!!
As always, Id like to thank everyone who has particpated in this TOC, and hope we can get you all back, and then some, for our FINAL TV Cartoon TOC, the Mixed Team TOC, which should be starting any minute now. :)
BAH!!! Thats right...BAH! Oh well...Mew Two, you won in my heart.
And they say one vote doesn't make a difference....:p
Originally posted by Rando
Two different universes. In D&D magic is very quantifiable, in the Marvel universe not so much.
Actually, no.
It is only quantifiable there in the sense that a set of guidelines
have been set down to assist people who are tied more to
logic than imagination in playing a game.
Hearing you insist that you know exactly how a dragon flies,
and what is possible for it to do in flight is vaguely absurd.
deadalus13
04/08/2005, 00:38
"Magic Missle is just force any forcefield should block it easily (and the shield spell, a poor man's equivalent to a force field does), this again requires Tiamat to find Mewtwo somehow."
Actually Magic Missiles are not force. They are magical energy. And the Shield spell was designed specificaly to stop Magic Missiles.
"She's ok manueverable, but not nearly Mewtwo's level."
I agree. But she doesn't have to be. Mewtwo can fly circles around Tiamat. Of course while he is doing so, she can keep a continual barrage of attacks directed at him.
"She can't cast Mind Blank it is too high level."
Wrong. She has been shown on the show (in fact several other people have mentioned it in this thread) casting Earthquake and Meteor Storm. Meteor Storm is a 9th level magic user spell, which is the highest level there is. If I remember right, Earthquake is a 7th level Cleric spell, which again is the highest level there is. Don't the rules of the TOC say that outside sources can be used except where they contradict the show? Since she is shown on the show casting spells of these levels, she has the ability in the TOC even if her listing doesn't include the ability.
"which means she hadn't gone to the ethereal plane, makeing her still detectable and vulnerable from the material"
As mentioned by Rokk, the ability to go ethereal and astral are innate abilities of hers.
Tiamat won and rightly so.
VandalSavage
04/08/2005, 02:31
Cool...I was rooting for her!!! A Battle well fought!!
Mr. Savage
Most normal ancient dragons are also lvl 20 wiz/20 clr. So to say that the goddess of evil dragons wouldnt have access to any and all spells is kinda stertching it. Glad to see she won, she deserved it.
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