Video Game Character TOC: Would it work?

[icymatt]

I have loved DTM and other's past TOCs so much, I decided I'd liked to have my own. The one I'd like to do the most is a video game character TOC (as well as a megamix of DTM's cartoons, comics, and Movies TOCs. Anyone like this one too?) The problem: video games are a universe who's characters rely much on the skill of the player, so trying to think of power levels for the characters may be tough. Also, certain games feature characters that get stronger over time, and/or have power dictated by optional equipment. Before I can start this, I need opinions: Do you think this TOC would work? What ground rules would I need to lay down? Thanks for your help.

[SumYungGai]

You might want to limit the characters to a particular genre. For example,

Platform heroes
Sonic
Samus
Mario
Contra

First-person shooters
Doom Marine
Quake Marine
Gordon Freeman
Cate Archer

RPGs
The Bhaal-spawn
Diablo Sorceror
Diablo 2 Paladin
Cloud Strife

Fighting Games
Chun-Li
Ryu
Sophitia
Magneto


Anyways, you get the idea. Unless you have a common theme to follow, you can't really guage their power.

Sonic is completely invulnerable as long as he has at lest one ring on him. How would that compare to getting shot with the BFG 9000?

[Poring]

I think SumYungGai is right. They need to have the same format in order for this to work. We cant have Kirby vs. Sephiroth now can we? :)

[Goblin_Avenger]

All the choices would be made on coolness- theres really no way to tell if Bowser would be able to beat Sonic the hedgehog (some would argue he's too tough to be hurt by sonic, others would be Sega fanboys.). In the RPG catagory there is almost NO way to compare the fighters except by how cool they look, and old 32 bit guys will easilly get beaten by the 3D characters of today purely on the merit of the fact that noone has seen FF3's Locke do anything cool, he just steps forward and then back. On the other hand Clouds Omni-strike (is that its name?) Limit makes him out to be a God among mortals.

[icymatt]

And what's wrong with Kirby vs. Sephiroth? I bet Kirby would win.

To address the issues, I think the genre spanning thing wouldn't need much thinking. I mean, it doesn't matter if a guy has a gun, if Mario can jump over him throw him like he did to Bowser in SM64, his gun don't matter too much, does it?
Second, I think when looking at RPG characters, we have to look at their natural abilities. By that, Locke would be a perfectly good Lightweight, if we say he can't use Esper magic. And for all fairness, all Limit Breaks/Hyper Moves/etc. would be banned. That means no Omni Strike for Cloud, and no Raging Demon for Akuma. Just whatever they can do without item/other assistance.
Third, I would like to keep this strictly non-licensed console games. Not that I have anything against PC games, it's just that the characters of the PC (who are usualy far more realistic, in a sense) just wouldn't click with the more cartoony characters of console video games. And no licenses, which means no Marvel characters from Marvel vs. Capcom.
Finally, I'd stay with more modern NES-current character base, and only in action-based titles (Mario/Sonic Platformers, RPGs, Fighting games, Adventure games like Metroid, Zelda and Metal Gear). So no Pac-Man or anythng like that (Mario and Sonic are different)
Also, many possible characters already have the weight class ranked, thanks to their appearance in cartoon TOC. Ryu, Cammy, Pyron, Mewtwo, etc.

[Poring]

Actually Kirby needs to get close to Sephiroth to take his power. Then Kirbyroth and Sephiroth could beat the living daylights out of each other until someone decides to supernova and wipe out the earth. :)

Yeah i like this idea a lot. I personally think it's a great idea to set up a TOC like this, the only problem is that there would be no way to calculate damage reliably.

Oh and Cloud's Limit is the OmniSlash, which deals 15 blows that can hit 9999 damage each :)

Oh the heck with it, let me nominate:

LW- Wizardmon (Digimon World 2)
MW- Balmung (.hack series)
HW- Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
SHW- Kirby (Super Smash Brothers)

Just some ideas...

[Aergail]

LW- Brave Fencer Musashi (Brave Fencer Musashi)
MW- Bowser (Mario N64)
HW- Sakuyamon (Digimon Rumble Arena 1)
SHW- Sigma (Megaman X-7)

[jedah_s]

there may be a problem with ff7 characters

how are you going to deal with the different weapons and materia you can equip?

i had my squall set up to cover and counter attack 7 times.
yuffie had the quarda magic/w-magic contain+ mp absorb+ hp absord+ added steal spell combo.
cid had final attack+pheonix, and w-summon+kotr+mp absorb+hp absorb.

the way they were set up.... they couldn't lose.

everyone set their guys differently... that might be a problem.

[jedah_s]

bleh... make that cloud... not squall
*shakes head*

[Poring]

I feel I may need to justify...

LW- Wizardmon (Digimon World 2)- In the Video Games he is much weaker, he could not fly and his durability was toned down. However if we were to use the TV series as a resource he could be boosted up to HW again.
MW- Balmung (.hack series)- This guy is a decent mage and a powerful swordmaster. I deem him MW.
HW- Sora (Kingdom Hearts)- Sora would be a SHW, but he is still only a 14 year old kid (although with a strong heart)
SHW- Kirby (Super Smash Brothers)- Technically he can be in any class, mainly because his powers depend on the power of the opponent he is facing, but since he does have vast durability, he could be a SHW.

Anyway you can disregard me if you like.
:)

[Poring]

jedah, i believe we could use them without materia and use their Kingdom Hearts incarnations as substitute.

Sephiroth still would be a SHW. Sin Harvest is one nasty attack. ;)

[Corzair]

Originally posted by icymatt
And what's wrong with Kirby vs. Sephiroth? I bet Kirby would win.

To address the issues, I think the genre spanning thing wouldn't need much thinking. I mean, it doesn't matter if a guy has a gun, if Mario can jump over him throw him like he did to Bowser in SM64, his gun don't matter too much, does it?
Second, I think when looking at RPG characters, we have to look at their natural abilities. By that, Locke would be a perfectly good Lightweight, if we say he can't use Esper magic. And for all fairness, all Limit Breaks/Hyper Moves/etc. would be banned. That means no Omni Strike for Cloud, and no Raging Demon for Akuma. Just whatever they can do without item/other assistance.
Third, I would like to keep this strictly non-licensed console games. Not that I have anything against PC games, it's just that the characters of the PC (who are usualy far more realistic, in a sense) just wouldn't click with the more cartoony characters of console video games. And no licenses, which means no Marvel characters from Marvel vs. Capcom.
Finally, I'd stay with more modern NES-current character base, and only in action-based titles (Mario/Sonic Platformers, RPGs, Fighting games, Adventure games like Metroid, Zelda and Metal Gear). So no Pac-Man or anythng like that (Mario and Sonic are different)
Also, many possible characters already have the weight class ranked, thanks to their appearance in cartoon TOC. Ryu, Cammy, Pyron, Mewtwo, etc. uh no....
\

[Corzair]

Originally posted by icymatt
And what's wrong with Kirby vs. Sephiroth? I bet Kirby would win.

To address the issues, I think the genre spanning thing wouldn't need much thinking. I mean, it doesn't matter if a guy has a gun, if Mario can jump over him throw him like he did to Bowser in SM64, his gun don't matter too much, does it?
Second, I think when looking at RPG characters, we have to look at their natural abilities. By that, Locke would be a perfectly good Lightweight, if we say he can't use Esper magic. And for all fairness, all Limit Breaks/Hyper Moves/etc. would be banned. That means no Omni Strike for Cloud, and no Raging Demon for Akuma. Just whatever they can do without item/other assistance.
Third, I would like to keep this strictly non-licensed console games. Not that I have anything against PC games, it's just that the characters of the PC (who are usualy far more realistic, in a sense) just wouldn't click with the more cartoony characters of console video games. And no licenses, which means no Marvel characters from Marvel vs. Capcom.
Finally, I'd stay with more modern NES-current character base, and only in action-based titles (Mario/Sonic Platformers, RPGs, Fighting games, Adventure games like Metroid, Zelda and Metal Gear). So no Pac-Man or anythng like that (Mario and Sonic are different)
Also, many possible characters already have the weight class ranked, thanks to their appearance in cartoon TOC. Ryu, Cammy, Pyron, Mewtwo, etc.
uh no.... Sure kirby can absorb powers but I don't think he can even get near Sephiroth.. Before kirby can even get near him he would probably just slash him in midair..
Anywayz my nominations are:

SHW-Sephiroth(go figure)-Kingdom Hearts version
HW-Helba-(w/ all hacking powers and stats)-.hack series
MW-Dante(w/o demon powers but w/ all his weapons and skills)- Devil May Cry series
LW-Lu Bu-Dynasty Warriors series

BTW are DBZ chars allowed. I mean it is a Video Game TOC right? and there are a lot of DBZ games out there. Just curious...
\

[Prof. Aragorn]

I'd like a video game TOC, though there are a lot of video games we may have to limit it by universe or something . . .

If you're taking nominations I'd like

Lightweight: Fly McTaggert (Doom series)
Middleweight: Caleb (Blood and Blood 2: The Chosen)
Heavyweight: Ninja Monkey (Timesplitters: Future Perfect)
Superheavyweight: Alucard (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night with Twilight Cloak, Alucard Sword, Shield, and Mail, all relics active, Cross as secondary weapon, etc.)

[DTM]

Why not try it out first with the easiest genre of videogames to do a TOC on: Fighting Games!

Surely there are enough characters in Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Marvel v Capcom, Star Wars: Masters of Tersa Kasi, X-Men the Next Dimension, even wrestling games and the like to fill up a TOC, or a 16 character mini TOC if theres not enough people.

Characters in Fighting Video Games already have their set fighting styles, their special moves and finishing combos all set to go. No worrying about hit points or certain spells that can differ from whoever is actually playing the game. Fighting Game characters are pretty fixed, you know how to play Captain America from Marvel Super Heroes perfectly, know all of his special moves and powers, and hes not going to change from player to player. (The video game player will change, but not the actual video game character)

And in most cases such Fighting Game characters have their own backstories, personalities and attitudes, strengths and weaknesss, even comic or cartoon versions which further information can be drawn from already available. If this goes well, and Im sure it will, other genres such as RPG, Horror and suspense, Action and other types of video game TOCs can be done afterwards.

Figure starting with the easiest Video Game Genre, Fighting Games, first (in order to pick out any bugs or possible problems with such a TOC) would be a really good idea. (though this is just a suggestion, of course)

[jedah_s]

the biggest problem with a fighting game toc (imo)
even lame characters can be deadly in the hands of a skilled player.

i can play dan from street fighter just as well as i can play shin akuma from capcom vs snk.

i'm a mokujin player in tekken, he's technically everyone... just randomly.
there are several characters in tekken who have 80 to 100% damage combos. i can kill you in one combo with bryan fury.
jinpachi's fireball in tekken 5 does almost 80% damage on it's own on a counter hit. he's not playable (without a code breaker) but he's apparently open to nomiation.

i just think that the problem with this is that the way people play these characters changes so drastically that it will affect the way they vote. i understand what dtm is saying that the character themselves don't change, but there really are very few simply bad characters in fighting games (exp: roll, servbot).
every character can be used effectivly, granted your good enough to use them.

[Rando]

I think platformer/action game characters could be done. And in fact are probably the easiest, I think I have a pretty good idea how Samus Aran or Link would interact with people in reality.

Fighting game characters could be done reasonably done as well so long as you controled for the character's skill based upon their background (for example while a really good player can beat Ryu with Dan, Ryu's background is that he is far more skilled than Dan).

RPG's characters I think are almost logistically impossible for one thing how powerful the characters are is dramatically dependant upon how they have been built up. 2 differnet people's Cloud's could be designed totally differently. There are also times when an ability combination can make a character totally unbeatable (for example in final fantasy 5 or 6 you could do something that allowed a single character to continue acting indefinently). Also of note is that some RPG's are just numerically different than others, how do you control for the fact that in Disgaea you can get to level 1000 and have statistics that are over 10 times the value any character in just about any other RPG can functionaly have?

[jedah_s]

i agree that a platformer/action game toc would work well.
samus aran, link, solid snake, lara croft, rikimaru, those type of people.
maybe keep them with their basic equipment.
no snake with the guided missle launcher, or alucard with all the top items.
keep it like dtm's toc and have them use what they normally carry.

personally i'd steer clear of rpg characters and fighting game characters.
fighting games for the skill gap, and rpg's for the customization gap.
(if anyone wants the contain combo for ff7 let me know and i'll post it :) )

[icymatt]

I was thinking of giving certain characters set equipment. So, FFVII characters wouldn't have materia assistance, Sora would only have his basic keyblade, and Chrono Trigger's Frog would have only the Masamune. Other stuff, like accessories, armor, shields, etc. won't be needed unless the character is normally equipped with those things. Otherwise, they're just fluff to be ignored.

I agree, fighting game characters are the easiest to classify, because they already have set skill sets that can't normally be strengthened and augmented. It doesn't matter how good Dan is with a good player, this time he has no player, so the entire match is determined by what he can do. It's good Super Smash Bros. streamlines the Nintendo characters like this.

Finally, I say we should ignore game stat counts and only look at character's basic abilities. For example, it doesn't matter how strong Tifa is at LV.70 cause we just ignore that and look at what she can do: she's a h2h fighter, nothing more. She wouldn't stand a chance vs. Bowser, Zangief, or Donkey Kong in normal strength.

[icymatt]

DTM, while your idea is sound (with the exception of the inclusion of Masters of Teras Kasi, which should be stricken from the record), just don't think it'd be interesting enough. Fighting game characters have crossover battles regularily, so it just wouldn't have the same punch as say, Ryu vs. Cloud. Your inner fanboy would agree.
So, If I were to have this TOC, here a few of the rules I'd lay:

1. All characters who need to will have a list of equipment they have. For example, Link would be with his Master Sword (obligatory), Hylian Shield(no cheap mirror shield), a bow and arrows, a boomerang, and a hookshot. Equipment sets would be decided at nomination.

2. Characters will not be allowed to use abilites granted to them by extra items that they would not normally have (for example, no materia abilites for FFVII, no Esper-granted magic for FFVI characters). Characters will only use their default skills.

3. No Limit Breaks, Hyper Combos, or any other ultra-powerful moves that would give an unfair advantage.

4. Unless someone else can convince me otherwise, I will not allow healing abilities.

Sonic's power level is still an issue, though...

[ca551u5]

I'm not sure about rule 3, since the idea is that you need to build up to them, and they're a key part of the character.

I'd say no Plot Device moves, so Sephiroth won't be ripping out Supernova, Dizzy (####it, she will be in there!) won't unleash Hikari no Tsubasa, no Blood of the Martyr from Testament (I WILL SEE GUILTY GEAR CHARACTERS IN HERE!), that sort of thing.

I'd love a VG TOC, and a fighting games mini-TOC would be a good testing ground.

[jedah_s]

Originally posted by icymatt

1. All characters who need to will have a list of equipment they have. For example, Link would be with his Master Sword (obligatory), Hylian Shield(no cheap mirror shield), a bow and arrows, a boomerang, and a hookshot. Equipment sets would be decided at nomination.

2. Characters will not be allowed to use abilites granted to them by extra items that they would not normally have (for example, no materia abilites for FFVII, no Esper-granted magic for FFVI characters). Characters will only use their default skills.

i'm not sure how the equipment from rule one differs from the magic in rule two.
materia is equipment in ff7. you hooked up materia to your weapons and armor, and you were granted spells and such.

if you take magic away from ff characters you've just handicapped some of them.
lulu and yuna being good (recent) examples.... one is primarily a spellcaster, one is primarily a summoner.
sure they *could* attack physically... but it's not what they'd normally do.

[icymatt]

I mean't it only to apply to characters who normally wouldn't be able to use magic. Lulu and Yuna are magic-users by class, so the are exempt from this rule.
ca551u5, that's the idea. I want to prevent all truly devastating attacks. And yes, GG is probably ging to end up in here.

[icymatt]

Another thing: if it makes it easier, I will allow people to use non-video game sources (i.e. Cartoons, comics, etc.) for reference,as long as it doesn't contradict the game, just as DTM did in the cartoon TOC.

I may soon start an official nomination thread. But first, I'd like to share my first 5 nominations for each weight class to see if the way I gauge power levels is similar to everyone else:

Lightweights
Arthur (Ghosts 'N Goblins/Ghouls 'N Ghosts)
Locke (Final Fantasy VI [AKA III])
Tifa (Final Fantasy VII)
Mike Haggar (Final Fight)
Ibuki (Street Fighter III series)

Middleweight
Ryu (Street Fighter series)
Solid Snake (Metal Gear Series)
Mario (Mario Bros. Series)
Simon Belmont (Castlevania Series)
Crono (Chrono Trigger)

Heavyweights[\u]
Alucard (Castlevania series)
Akuma (Street Fighter series)
Magus (Chrono Trigger)
Ridley (Metroid series)
Terra (Final Fantasy VI AKA III)

[u]Super Heavyweights
Sephiroth (Final Fantasy VII)
Dracula (Castlevania series)
Mother Brain (Metroid series)
Ganon (Legend of Zelda series)
Kefka [Final Boss] (Final Fantasy VI AKA III)

[Rokk_Krinn]

I would suggest that if you do this you limit it purely to their video game capabilities - no outside sources. This prevents a few problems for characters in, say, the Digimon games.

[Rando]

Mario a middleweight? His background is that he is a plumber, and all he knows how to do is walk around and jump. What's Mother Brain gonna do, she's a brain in a jar?

[icymatt]

Well, I never really thought anyone would mention the Digimon games, and I probably won't allow those characters in it (because the game is based on another property, and I'd like to keep most of the characters videogame originated ). I was talking more along the lines of the Street Fighter comic, the .Hack anime, and other such things.

Rando, If you've played the Mario games, you'll see Mario is incredibly athletic, can jump incredibly far and high, and has atleast somewhat superhuman strength normally (he was able to chuck around Bowser in Super Mario 64).

I should have been more specific with Mother Brain. I nominated the form it appeared in as the final boss of Super Metroid (with the robotic body).

[Rokk_Krinn]

Okay, the "outside sources" works a bit better in that way, though you'll probably also want to disclude characters from Star Wars, comics, etc. - Magneto with more than just his video game powers (and which video game - he's been in tons and not all of them were fighter games) would be a nightmare to "referee".

[Jawapimp]

I was starting to wonder when someone would tackle the video game TOC. Well first off, there would have to be a limit as to how many characters from any given series of games, so we dont end up with 100 people from the 12 final fantasy games. Second, I like the weight class set-up that DTM uses so that would work for this too. I say that characters nominated should have a full read out of all powers. That way if they are too powerful they are either bumped up a weight class or bumped out of the TOC. Other than that I can't think of anyhting (for now) so I'm gonna toss in some nominees:

LW - Conker (Conker's Bad Fur Day)
MW - Master Chief (Halo/Halo2)
HW - Nemesis w/Rocket launcher (Resident Evil 3)
SHW - Ganon (Legend of Zelda series)

[jedah_s]

oh for....
please take dracula off the list now before prof a catches wind of it.
:p

[icymatt]

Wouldn't he then just vote for Alucard, the son of Dracula?:p

I might be going with DTM's idea to have a fighting game mini-tourney first. I'll keep this thread alive to get ideas for the bigger cross-genre TOC. So any more ideas for rules/limits would be nice.

[Jawapimp]

I second the motion to go with the fighting games TOC as a sort of test run.

[shadow_cat55]

I'm all for a VG TOC because Dante would rule all!

[Poring]

Originally posted by icymatt
Well, I never really thought anyone would mention the Digimon games, and I probably won't allow those characters in it (because the game is based on another property, and I'd like to keep most of the characters videogame originated ).

Oh well... Wizardmon would have made a terrific LW/MW/HW.

Actually his power fluctuates per video game. :laugh:

Anyway even if you dont allow the Digimon (which is fine by me) at least I have Kirby vs. Sephiroth to look forward too!

I still cant decide who wins that one though... ;)

Anyway you have my support, you just need to work out the rules and we can have a great TOC. Good luck.

[icymatt]

Well, I'm now holding nominations for the Fighting game mini TOC. It can be found at:
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=131770

[SaferSephiroth]

The nightmare with RPGs is that battles and the actual game oftentimes contradict the cutscenes and plot, and vice versa.