View Full Version : TV Cartoon Battles: Mixed Teams TOC: Round 1, Match 4
While Match 3 seemed to be another blow out (which isnt all that bad, and should help for better following Rounds) I think this battle (a bit of a grudge match if you will) will be quite a bit closer.
With pretty much the same rules as with all of my TOCs, except this time:
The terrain has been enlarged to 40 miles wide, as always, protected by a force field of the strongest power to prevent characters from escaping or flying their foes to the sun.
Team will now have a 10 minute "Planning Stage" where each team can talk and prep amongst themsevles against the opposing team. Characters may NOT leave their immediate area during this time and no powers, spells,etc. can be used. This is a planning, sharing information stage only.
Now without further adieu, allow me to present your next battle in a BRAND NEW (aka: OLD, OLD, OLD) type of Tournament Of Champions:
TEAM DRACULA - Snake Eyes (G. I. Joe), Igoo (Herculoids), Mumm-Ra (Thundercats), Dracula (Monster Force)
VS.
TEAM WISEMAN - Hak Fu (Jackie Chan Adventures), Captain N (Captain N & The Video Game Masters), Sesshoumaru (Inuyasha), Wise Man (Sailor Moon)
As always, same rules apply, no time to prepare, POOFed from where ever they were, with only what they routinely carry on them AND/OR routinely used in their shows, to fight in a Large area til one stands and one falls. YOU decide Who.
Randomly Chosen Area:
Primevil Wastes - Large, flat, rocky ground bisected by imposing cliffs. A central volcano can be seen from even the farthest parts of the arena. Channels of lava crisscross the open ground, ensuring that an uncertain step could lead to a very fiery death. (Inspired by: He-Man, Thundarr, etc)
Thanks all, and enjoy.
And REMEMBER, if youre not sure who someone is here, ASK. Theres PLENTY of people here who can tell you most anything youd like to know. Thanks again.
ALSO, please do your best to respect everyones votes, reasonings and opinions here. If you believe your character should win, but doesnt in the end, dont hold grudges against the character that beat yours, or call the votes that allowed this to happen "fanboy" arguments or plain and simply wrong. We all have our own way of thinking and voting here, with each one of our thoughts and ideas as valid as your own. Lets do what we can, even in the heat of an argument, to respect that. Thanks.
TV CARTOON TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS Part 5
ROUND 1
Team He-Man vs. Team Imhotep: Team Imhotep
Team Superion vs. Team Gundam Deathscythe: Team Superion
Team Venger vs. Team Sailor Saturn: Team Venger
Team Dracula vs. Team Wiseman: ??????
14 Down, 2 To Go
Team Wiseman wins for one reason...Captain N. This little time freezing kid can set 'em up just so Wiseman can knock 'em down. Captain N is the only one on the team that would actually care if the opponants got ripped to shreds, the other 3 being about as evil as they come. Wiseman's team will ruthlessly kick the carp out of Drac's (sorry Prof. A). My vote...
TEAM WISEMAN
Oh Im sure he could only freeze a limited area, VERY limited as far as this whole arena and other characters ranges are concerned, so I dont see Captain N simply hitting PAUSE and the entire Team Dracula being stuck, waiting to be killed.
Team Dracula has 2 very powerful and experience mystics on their side, (not to mention EVIL) I wouldnt be surprised if Captain N was killed from miles away from a lightning bolt from the blue. 10 minutes to plan and prep, characters as smart as Dracula and Mummra are going to know NOT to get too close to Captain N.
Heck, Snake Eyes is a MASTER of the stealth Kill/KO, I wouldnt be surprised if he took down Captain N before N even knew he was there to hit PAUSE.
I realize that the whole team won't be frozen, but I'm saying that it shouldn't be too hard for Wiseman and Company to get N in possition. If team Dracula sticks together, they are all frozen and will go down together. If they seperate, then team Wiseman can pick off straglers when the others aren't around. Or at least, that's how I see it.
I don't know - given the ruthlessness of his teammates I'm not sure I see Captain N cooperating with them so well.
"So I should freeze him. And then you'll tear him into little pieces and eat him? Gotcha - will do." :cheeky:
Toughie. Dracula has the better LW and MW when it comes to raw power, so overall I think it really comes to Mumm-Ra & Dracula vs. Sesshomaru & Wiseman. Mumm-Ra would most likely bemore than a match for Sesshomaru, maybe even overtaking him in the end. But, Wiseman would probably be able to take out Dracula and the other team members on his own.
Vote: Team Wiseman
Originally posted by Grinner
I don't know - given the ruthlessness of his teammates I'm not sure I see Captain N cooperating with them so well.
"So I should freeze him. And then you'll tear him into little pieces and eat him? Gotcha - will do." :cheeky: The rest of his team is not going to give him the option to say no.
Originally posted by Magnito
The rest of his team is not going to give him the option to say no.
Can't attack your own teammates (unless they're mind controlled or such). One of the rules from the first team ToC. Just like "act in character" has been around since the start of DTM's vs. threads.
Fine then, lets just assume that Cap N wants to win.
Prof. Aragorn
04/09/2005, 18:17
Snake Eyes will take down Captain N, the guy is like Batman when it comes to stealth. Igoo and Mumm-ra take on Sesh, it will be very tough for them, but they will definately stall the demon until Snake Eyes can wipe out Hak Fu with his stealth skills and go to help the rest.
Then it's a rematch of the two most evil villains this side of Thanos and Darkseid.
Of course, Dracula never falls for the same thing twice. He's ready, and he's not going to be taken down by someone he deems lesser than him. He's not going to let his ego hold him back. Hell, he'd probably use his magicks, and weather manipulations to aid his team in the stealth attack.
But Dracula and Wiseman face off, and Dracula isn't going to let him win-even if it's sacrificing himself. In the end however, no matter who survives, they will be in no condition to take on the remaining members of the team.
Team Wiseman would have gone far, probably taking it, but they just met a similar team, and a team that can easily hurt them. And with Dracula in charge (he's king of the monsters, he's going to be in charge), his Vlad the Impaler tactics come into play.
Heck, he could easily separate the group, kill Sesh, and take his form. Then he gets the surprise drop on Wiseman. As he did ala a great master vampire hunter in one of the shows.
Dracula's lost to Wiseman, he doesn't lose again. There's no plan to achieve or follow, it's monster vs. monster, and Dracula's pride is at stake. He's not going to lose.
Vote: Snake Eyes, Igoo, Mumm-ra, Dracula
Prof. Aragorn
04/09/2005, 18:20
Primevil Wastes - Large, flat, rocky ground bisected by imposing cliffs. A central volcano can be seen from even the farthest parts of the arena. Channels of lava crisscross the open ground, ensuring that an uncertain step could lead to a very fiery death. (Inspired by: He-Man, Thundarr, etc)
This is probably the best terrain to give to Dracula, he earthquakes the area, erupts the volcano and it's Pompeii all over again. Hope Wiseman likes boiled brains . . .
Okay, I'm voting for Team Dracula here.
I think Prof A sums things up perfectly - Drac lost last time (by my vote, in fact) by an incredibly small fraction. Drac will have learned from last time and will have the planning time. The advantage swings his direction this time. The HW & SHW on both teams are pretty equal, but I'd take the LW & MW on Drac's team over Wiseman's.
Team Dracula to round 2.
Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
This is probably the best terrain to give to Dracula, he earthquakes the area, erupts the volcano and it's Pompeii all over again. Hope Wiseman likes boiled brains . . .
He can do WHAT now? Aragorn and Grinner have convinced me to change my vote to Team Dracula.
I vote for Team Wiseman
First and foremost Snake Eye's stealth is worth nothing. This is a bad stealth terrain in the first place and on top of that Sesshoumaru has enhanced senses and Wiseman has a crystal ball that lets him watch what everyone is doing. Considering Wiseman can be anywhere in the arena and can see and attack anywhere else he should kill all 3 of Dracula's lower team easily before anyone engages. Next Wiseman in this match is tremedously more dangerous than he was before as Seshoumaru has a magic weapon on him that exudes evil magic:Wiseman's crystal's powers source, so Sess instead of horseing around with a HW that Wiseman can just assault with impunity just hangs around with Wiseman and super charges him. In addition Sesshoumaru's healing sword ruins undead meaning that again so long as Sesshoumaru is there Dracula (as is the equally undead Mumm-ra) is in tremendous danger and I have no doubt that Captain N would be more than happy to stop time so that Sess can cure him (Dracula) of his affliction, effectively removeing him from battle. Wiseman's team has got the moblility and more importantly the information, they cannot be suprised and will get to pick the way the fight rolls out. Plus Sesshoumaru gives Wiseman a tremendous boost in power as well as being a phenomenal menace to the undead laden opposing team.
Rokk_Krinn
04/09/2005, 22:36
Out of curiosity, wouldnt' Wiseman and Co. shield/protect Captain N so a bolt of lightning doesn't pop him? I would think with Wiseman's power a simple "spell of shielding" would be cake. However, asking because I'm not sure if this is within Wiseman's repertoire.
Prof. Aragorn
04/09/2005, 22:56
Originally posted by Rando
I vote for Team Wiseman
First and foremost Snake Eye's stealth is worth nothing. This is a bad stealth terrain in the first place and on top of that Sesshoumaru has enhanced senses and Wiseman has a crystal ball that lets him watch what everyone is doing. Considering Wiseman can be anywhere in the arena and can see and attack anywhere else he should kill all 3 of Dracula's lower team easily before anyone engages. Next Wiseman in this match is tremedously more dangerous than he was before as Seshoumaru has a magic weapon on him that exudes evil magic:Wiseman's crystal's powers source, so Sess instead of horseing around with a HW that Wiseman can just assault with impunity just hangs around with Wiseman and super charges him. In addition Sesshoumaru's healing sword ruins undead meaning that again so long as Sesshoumaru is there Dracula (as is the equally undead Mumm-ra) is in tremendous danger and I have no doubt that Captain N would be more than happy to stop time so that Sess can cure him (Dracula) of his affliction, effectively removeing him from battle. Wiseman's team has got the moblility and more importantly the information, they cannot be suprised and will get to pick the way the fight rolls out. Plus Sesshoumaru gives Wiseman a tremendous boost in power as well as being a phenomenal menace to the undead laden opposing team.
Dracula can make the terrain to Snake Eyes favor with a huge fog surrounding the entire area. It's going to be tough to watch people through a huge mist. It also hides Dracula as he can be mist until he gets close enough for an immediate kill on anyone in the arena. Igoo is a giant rock, wouldn't he blend in with the landscape a bit? Almost anyone can sneak up on Captain N at this point and he's out of the fight. It's also a problem since Dracula can change his shape to that of an opposing team members form (he's done it on more than one occasion, even posed as the Frankenstein Monster to sneak into a Monster Force base) and then wham, two remain.
Sesshomaru is nothing, Dracula makes guys like him bow to his will every day. There was one episode where a vampire nearly his equal kidnapped and held two people of value to Drac. He was challenged to fight this guy and it only lasted about 3 minutes even with the Frankenstein Monster helping. Drac morphed into his monster form and laid the smack down, wiped him off the face of the earth and no one really challenges him anymore. And who's to say that he's the first person Dracula mists in and takes out. It wouldn't be hard and well within Dracula's means. The only guy who could possibly hurt Dracula would be Wiseman, and Drac knows any tricks he could do.
And you won't bring Dracula back from the undead. The Monster Force tried that-it worked on an ancient vampire (one of Dracula's first victims I think), but it failed miserably on Drac and he continued to wreak havoc. Sesh's sword is equally useless, Drac's will to remain top is too strong and nothing beats out his will.
Dracula can bring three-fourths of wiseman's team before any confrontations begin as well. So it's basically Wiseman vs. Dracula again-except two things, Drac had prep time, and he's already fought him. It doesn't matter what Wiseman does, those two things means Dracula wins.
Out of curiosity Prof. A, is there any situation where you wouldn't vote for Drac?
Prof. Aragorn
04/09/2005, 23:02
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Out of curiosity, wouldnt' Wiseman and Co. shield/protect Captain N so a bolt of lightning doesn't pop him? I would think with Wiseman's power a simple "spell of shielding" would be cake. However, asking because I'm not sure if this is within Wiseman's repertoire.
It's just not lightning, Dracula will send hurricanes, tornadoes, huge thunderstorms, he can even cause an earthquake or a nearby volcano erupt. If Sesh even tries to un-undead Drac, and Drac finds out, everyone dies. He doesn't like it when his foes try to de-vamp him.
Prof. Aragorn
04/09/2005, 23:04
Originally posted by Magnito
Out of curiosity Prof. A, is there any situation where you wouldn't vote for Drac?
Considering that there aren't many who can stop him-there are very few situations where I'll cast a vote-even if it's a pity vote.
Well, maybe Galactus, or some DC cosmics, but that would be it. Drac would pwn just about any body else (yes, even Dark Phoenix and Batman with prep time).
Anyways, Prof A makes it sound like Wiseman's LW, MW and HW are going to lie down and die on the spot. Anything Drac can do, Wiseman can do. If Drac can simply take out the other three, then Wiseman can do the same to Team Drac. Then it's Drac vs. Wiseman, and we all know how that turned out...
Prof. Aragorn
04/09/2005, 23:26
Originally posted by Magnito
Anyways, Prof A makes it sound like Wiseman's LW, MW and HW are going to lie down and die on the spot. Anything Drac can do, Wiseman can do. If Drac can simply take out the other three, then Wiseman can do the same to Team Drac. Then it's Drac vs. Wiseman, and we all know how that turned out...
The reasons why the three teammates to Wiseman are just going to lie down and die for Dracula are
1: Fog makes scrying with a crystal ball difficult, especially since Drac can blend in as mist and get the drop on anyone.
2: Sesshoumaru is a demon, if it is evil and a demon, it usually knows that Dracula is the master. If Sess challenges Drac, then he will go down, and go down hard. It'll probably be settled Bat-Demon to Sess-Demon, and Drac will pick him up and smack him into the cliff as if he were trying to clean laundry. If it's not settled that way, then only Dracula will be the one that lands any hits.
3: Drac can drop any of the three, change shape to that of the one he just annihilated, and gain a drop on the others.
4: Keep in mind, Drac lost his pride since Wiseman beat him. He's quite pissed, having an angry Dracula against you is akin to Odysseus pissing of Poseidon. He's going to have some very severe weather conditions ala earthquakes, T-storms, volcano eruptions, hurricanes, tornadoes, anything he can control, he sends at these guys.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg, Drac wants swift and painful retribution, the fact that he gets to plan for it, and knows how to overcome it just makes a lot more easier.
They aren't just going to lay down and die because it's Dracula, they're going to lay down and die because Dracula either drops them with a surprise attack or because they cannot hurt him. Of course if they can they'll put up a fight, but in the end, Dracul's teaching him a lesson (that's another thing, if any of these guys calls him Dracula-as opposed to Dracul-he's not going to be pleased, to the point of very painful punishments)
As for the rematch of the villains:
There are two differences in the fights:
1: Dracula gains 10 minutes of prep time-the man is a demon with the tactics and he's a magnificent schemer.
2: Dracula knows Wiseman now, and he never is defeated by the same guy twice. If that weren't true, he wouldn't keep coming back.
If it ends up as Drac vs. Wiseman, Wiseman's going down-no questions.
GRUDGE MATCH
Ahem...anyway, this is the frickin' apocalypse all over again. Wiseman and Dracula are going to turn this battlefield in Diablo's lounge room during the prep time.
After Wiseman does his trademark thing, pumping his teammates full of Dark power. The thought of Sesshoumaru as a Dark Puppet, ESPECIALLY with his swords, is frightening. We've seen what Hak Fu is like when he's buffed up like this, and Wiseman's just going to take the frickin' pad off Captain N.
Drac is going to be burning for revenge, but he isn't going to get it. Sesshoumaru is ####ed good at killing undead, and sadly, Mumm-Ra and Drac are both undead. As a Dark Puppet, he's going to be worse. With Wiseman and N running amok with the pad, and Wiseman's scrying ability, Dracula misting up the arena is a prime way of shooting yourself in the foot.
Sorry Prof A, but I can't see Wiseman losing this fight, not with prep time to upgrade his entire team and set up scry sensors to keep watch on the opposition. Sess taking on two undead is just the icing on the cake. It's not going to be easy, but Wiseman takes it with the help of his three new Dark Puppets.
Rokk_Krinn
04/09/2005, 23:40
Sorry Prof. A but the fog doesn't hold up too well - there's not any real moisture to form the fog from and even if it "magically" occures (and I believe Drac _controls_ weather which means he's still limited to environmental conditions - he couldn't make a tornado in a void, for example) the heat from the terrain will dissipate the fog pretty quick.
As for hurricanes (which I doubt are possible here - you need a large body of water for those), tornados, quakes, etc. once again I have to ask: what's to stop Wiseman from making a simple "shielding spell"?
More and more upon viewing this, I'd say the fight goes to Drac's opponents especially if they can protect Captain N.
Vote: Team Wiseman
Prof. Aragorn
04/09/2005, 23:53
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Sorry Prof. A but the fog doesn't hold up too well - there's not any real moisture to form the fog from and even if it "magically" occures (and I believe Drac _controls_ weather which means he's still limited to environmental conditions - he couldn't make a tornado in a void, for example) the heat from the terrain will dissipate the fog pretty quick.
As for hurricanes (which I doubt are possible here - you need a large body of water for those), tornados, quakes, etc. once again I have to ask: what's to stop Wiseman from making a simple "shielding spell"?
More and more upon viewing this, I'd say the fight goes to Drac's opponents especially if they can protect Captain N.
Vote: Team Wiseman
Eh, when the Monster Force stole Dracula's private coffin and shot him with something that partially returned his mortality, he was pissed. Within instants he summoned thunderstorms, tornadoes, hurricanes, and everything. It decimated the area, put the headquarters out of commission, and flooded the complex. And wouldn't controlling weather mean he can manipulate the weather despite what happens?
Heck, even in the book or in the comics, Drac can just create storms and such even without any humidity or anything necessary for the storms to realistically appear (if he wants it to snow in Hawaii, then durnit, it snows). This Dracula is more powerful than all of them combined so I would expect Drac to just make the weather-especially since he's done so in his primary source (the cartoon).
And he can still cause an earthquake or erupt the volcano. If the shields Wiseman creates can withstand all these conditions, then there's a limited supply of oxygen, sure Wiseman doesn't need that to live, but Captain N? Hak Fu? Sesshoumaru?
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 00:08
Originally posted by ca551u5
GRUDGE MATCH
Ahem...anyway, this is the frickin' apocalypse all over again. Wiseman and Dracula are going to turn this battlefield in Diablo's lounge room during the prep time.
Oh agree, if it were just one of these two, the terrain gets destroyed.
Originally posted by ca551u5
After Wiseman does his trademark thing, pumping his teammates full of Dark power. The thought of Sesshoumaru as a Dark Puppet, ESPECIALLY with his swords, is frightening. We've seen what Hak Fu is like when he's buffed up like this, and Wiseman's just going to take the frickin' pad off Captain N.
I personally don't think they're on equal ground to Dracula. Hak Fu maybe a beast in close combat and he may be able to hurt Dracula if given the chance, but that if means it won't always happen, and this is a snarlin', now merciless Dracula-that if isn't happening.
Originally posted by ca551u5
Drac is going to be burning for revenge, but he isn't going to get it. Sesshoumaru is ####ed good at killing undead, and sadly, Mumm-Ra and Drac are both undead. As a Dark Puppet, he's going to be worse. With Wiseman and N running amok with the pad, and Wiseman's scrying ability, Dracula misting up the arena is a prime way of shooting yourself in the foot.
Sess can kill his undead in his world, but these are just lowly demons-they're not superheavyweights, they'd barely make middleweights. If Inuyasha's brother thinks he can touch Dracula, he's very wrong. The only thing that ever hurt Dracula was the device that could return mortality to vampires. And even then it barely worked. Whenever he was shot with a weapon meant for trapping high-powered monsters it would just smoulder into nothingness. The Frankenstein Monster never once was able to hurt Dracula. He's only just wrassled him. And only then, it was the sun that made Dracula retreat. As for N, Dracula can easily get the drop on him, whether disguised as one of the fallen or appearing as mist in a thick fog. N doesn't see his demise happen-which is the least Dracula can accomodate.
And again, Wiseman's scrying ability is with that crystal ball. That would only bring up an image of the area, correct. If it's so thick you can barely see your own face, how will he recognize an invisible Dracula. Only those with heightened senses and excellent tracking ability will be able to move about in this terrain.
Originally posted by ca551u5
Sorry Prof A, but I can't see Wiseman losing this fight, not with prep time to upgrade his entire team and set up scry sensors to keep watch on the opposition. Sess taking on two undead is just the icing on the cake. It's not going to be easy, but Wiseman takes it with the help of his three new Dark Puppets.
I can't see Drac losing this fight, either. He's angry, he's got prep time, he's faced his opponent before, and he barely beat him (the only way the fight could have gone). He's not going easy on Wiseman, and he will know how to defeat Wiseman this time. He isn't forgiving. It's not easy, but Drac takes it since the setup is too highly in favor of Dracula.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 00:11
Feh, Post deleted.
Wow...what a good match-up, but for the 50.01% win, I have to give it to team Dracula. Mumm-Ra and Dracula make a very. very deadly duo. Snake Eyes just adds to the mix. Even with the scrying ability, I see Mumm-Ra and Dracula being able to dish out the same stuff Wiseman is going to dish out. Captain N is a good MW to have on a team, I just don't see his powers being able to stop Dracula and Mumm-Ra. Captain N does need to get close and I don't think N is gonna be able to get that close. Prof. A put a lot of good points up on team Drac. While I acknowledge the bias (ha ha), either team moving on is fine with me, but my vote is going towards Team Dracula.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 00:37
Bias, why whatever do you mean? :noid:
As stated in the rules, no one cam pump up their team mates during the 10 minute prep time. No spells can be cast. This was a huge factor for me, cause Wiseman is gonna have to do any "pumping" when the match starts, and that gives Drac and Mumm-Ra sometime to get into their positions.
Again, Mumm-Ra and Drac can dish out whatever Wiseman can dish out. Even if they can see Snake eyes coming, why would they waste time on him when there are bigger fish to fry? I see Wiseman and Sess going after Drac and Mumm-Ra outright, ignoring the other two (and I see Drac getting his vengence on Wiseman, all other thoughts aside). I can see Snake Eyes getting Captain N out of the game QUITE easily, even with that gadget of his (you cannot freeze time when you don't see it coming).
hail_eris
04/10/2005, 01:52
Dracula's Team Snake Bite brings a lot of firepower to the table, but Wise Man's Anime-niacs seem to have a lot more going on as a cohesive team. Captain N's localized time stop power is crucial, as his corresponding MW on Drac's team is pretty much a placeholder. Wise Man and Sesameseeds will exploit that ability to its ultimate potential, and the inherent "evilness" of Dracula and Mumm-Ra should calm any misgivings that the Captain has about using it against them. Team Wise Man to advance.
I can see Snake Eyes getting Captain N out of the game QUITE easily, even with that gadget of his (you cannot freeze time when you don't see it coming).
Keep in mind, Wiseman can scry the locations of everyone here, and can teleport his team around. "Hmm... Sesshomaru, their ninja is there." *lighting bolt/teleports Sesshomaru over while the two teams are still far apart, no more Snake Eyes*
Can't attack your own teammates (unless they're mind controlled or such). One of the rules from the first team ToC. Just like "act in character" has been around since the start of DTM's vs. threads.
One of Wiseman's tricks is to imbue someone with Dark Energy to increase their strength, but also increases the evil of their nature. Captain N would be more willing after that, if it's allowed.
On the HWs- Both Mumm-Ra and Sesshomaru are really skilled. And have magic swords. Only one has Superspeed and two magic swords, one of which will hurt Mumm-ra with it's presence and the other will heal Sesshomaru, and his teammates, when they're hurt. Sesshomaru takes him, and in a really short time if Captain N helps out. Then they take out Igoo quickly. Then go to the big fish to help out Wiseman, with no injuries from prior fighting.
On the SHWs- Both will be throwing storms of darkness and the like at each other. Both are very evenly matched, as their previous fight showed. One has a teammate that can heal him and has a sword that oozes the dark energy upon which the Dark Crystal feeds to boost him to stronger hights than their previous match showed.
Drac will learn from their previous duel, but so will Wiseman. Better teammates will win the day for Wiseman, since the other three will be finished before the two hugely powerful magic entities finished it out. Then Sesshomaru heals Wiseman and adds his power to Wiseman's own, at the very least as a thorn in Dracula's side.
Team Wiseman - 6 votes
Team Dracula - 4 votes
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 02:46
That's why the teams get the downloads and the ten minutes prep.
Dracula sees what Sesshoumaru can do with his swords, he sees Captain N's time stopping, and he sees Hak Fu's . . . hacking. What does one of the most tactically brilliant minds of our world's history do when he sees a rival with a better team than his?
He kills the team first.
With all the fog and chaos of storms approaching it's going to be very hard to scrye on Drac-especially since he'll travel under cover of mist. His first priority is to probably take out N or Sess while his team gets slaughtered. Drac takes down Sess fast and quickly with the combination of stealth, speed, and savagery, then he uses N as a battery. If he still is drained from those encounters, next comes Hak Fu. Wait a tic, did Wiseman just imbue them with mystical dark magic? Did Dracula just take their life energy and probably some of that dark magic? Is this Dracula's plan?
Yes.
Now he faces Wiseman, partially restored from the quick encounters with a bit more dark power. Wiseman probably didn't even get touched by Drac's team so he's at full capacity.
But Dracula wants to win now, more than ever. He's tasted a sample of Wiseman's darkness and now he's going to use it against him.
Lets not forget the fact that Drac has fought him before, he's had 10 minutes to think about how he will take him down and he's a little stronger from absorbing the dark energy of Wiseman's team mates. He's also a lot more evil because of it.
Then we have an epic clash of titans. Dracula doesn't let up, and he knows where to hit now. He knows what Wiseman will pull and when. Doom Phantom might know similar, but he probably doesn't count on the dark magic Drac's absorbed-or the fact that Dracul doesn't have a weakness for him to exploit.
In the end, Dracula wins, he probably won't be even able to stand, think, or blink after the battle, but victory will be his.
Dracula sees what Sesshoumaru can do with his swords, he sees Captain N's time stopping, and he sees Hak Fu's . . . hacking. What does one of the most tactically brilliant minds of our world's history do when he sees a rival with a better team than his?
He kills the team first.
Ah, a worthy goal, but then the question is 'who kills the other's team first?'.
Due to scrying and teleportation, I believe Wiseman and his team can kill Drac's henchmen before Drac can kill WM's. Oh, and since Wiseman can teleport teammates, he can keep them protected and keep Drac from draining them by being a far larger threat to worry about than whatever little power Drac could gain from Hak Fu and Captain N (and Yank their power if they are taken out. He's a bastard like that. And against this team, only Sesshomaru is worthy of strong amounts of dark power). He's gonna have those same 10 minutes to consider what Drac's going to do and plan for it.
Wiseman can probably eat Mumm-Ra's ancient spirits of evil too with the dark crystal.
Even if for some reason fog obscures Wiseman's scryong ability as Sesshoumaru has tremendously enhanced senses, he can still function just fine in the fog, it isn't just Wiseman screwing stealth up it is both of them plus Captain N stopping time whenever anyone gets in the area. Fog will just make Snake Eyes unable to use his guns effectively, and make it all the easier for Wiseman's team to control the flow of the battle.
For Dracula to weather Wiseman's team down he needs to know where they are, he can't just bathe the arena in mess (even if he is physically capable of this) as that will kill his team, which isn't allowed. Captain N's time stop also makes a handy anti-weather defense, any bad stuff goes down and he just stops time and moves to a safer location. Wiseman similarly can just grab his team and teleport elswhere if he doesn't care for the atmospheric conditions in the general vicinity. Wiseman also has no such limitations with his long range attacks fog or no he will be looking right at the location of his chosen target, his attacks will all be much more precise and efficient. Dracula simply doesn't have the option to kill the other team first so long as they act as a team, they have means of defending each other Dracula offers his team no protection.
Considering 2 charatcers from Inuyasha are in the HW's and there is a laundry list of demons that have shown up in the show that are more powerful than both of them (either singly or together) I don't know how you came to the impression that it is a world of lowly middle-weight demons. In fact both of Sesshoumaru's swords (as well as Inuyasha's) are made from the teeth of demons who are almost certainly SHW monsters (which is why they are so powerful). It's possible that Dracula might resist being healed back to normal but by no means a sure thing.
The major difference between these teams is that Dracula is a team of individuals, none of them really help out the other, and in fact the presence of a team lessens the effectiveness of Dracula's blind weather attacks, as he has to throw them blind and so must concern himself with not hurting his team, especially if Snake Eyes is gonna want to creep around and do ninja stuff. They don't really assist each other in any way other than existing. Wiseman's team however synchs together marvelously paricularly in regards to assisting Wiseman in his long range bombardment tactics: Captain N plus Sesshoumaru make an incredible defensive buffer as Sess's enhanced senses will protect Captain N (and not just by warning him of incomeing attacks, Sess is more than capable of physically intercepting many suprise attacks) and allow N to simply nullify his most important weakness: being taken by suprise. On top of this Wiseman can give his team advanced notice of what their opponents are doing, they don't have to depend on just Sesshoumaru's enhanced senses they have backup information gathering tools in Wiseman. Wiseman's teleportation gives his team the ability to attack the other as sooner or later as they see fit, they can hole up and spend time letting Wiseman power up people on his team (while Sess likewise powers him up) or attack immidietly via teleportation if they are so inclined. The suprise advantage should always belong to Wiseman's team because of this, and that is a crushing advantage used in conjuction with N's time stop. It's like Duke says: "knowing is half the battle" and Wiseman's team will always be in the know about what is going on and what to do about it.
As has been said, the big thing here is just how well Team Wiseman synergises. Sesshoumaru's swords keep the team alive, and augment Wiseman's already absurd magical power, whilst Captain N's pad couples with teleportation and scrying to make a swift decapitation device.
Dracula's only real synergies are mutually exclusive, either he teams with Igoo as a beatstick, with Mumm-Ra as a dark mage, or with Snake Eyes as a silent killer.
i didn't want to vote on this one until i read other peoples opinions.
ca55iu5 and rando's arguments have convinced me to toss in a vote for team wiseman.
wiseman powering up his teammates, scrying a victim's location, teleporting captain n and sess there, capt. n freezing time on arrival, and sess taking the target out seems scarily effective.
Lets just be a bit careful about Wiseman powering up all of his lower teammates to HW status. As with Loki in a previous team TOC situation, Im not really sure that shouold be allowed, as it would be a constant SHW, HW, HW, HW situation. Though here Im sure there are several others who can do the same as Wiseman. 1 or two protective spells maybe, but not turning their entire team into the Wrecker and his crew.
Team Wiseman - 7 votes
Team Dracula - 4 votes
I'm really torn...I mean Dracula's team has the better LW and MW (HWs are equal, in my mind), but his team has less synergy, except with Dracula and Mumm-Ra, who would have the same amount of team-up potential as Wiseman and Sesshy. But I hear Drac has more control over the environment...but Wiseman can scry....but Dracula can...but Wiseman can....GAH! I need more input from others. My vote is still with Dracula now.
Im not really sure that shouold be allowed, as it would be a constant SHW, HW, HW, HW situation.
Note that unlike with Loki, it's more of a natural enhancement of what's there, and not the same level as Loki's. Sesshomaru, already brimming with Dark Energy, will actually only get a slight enhancement, a bit faster, a bit better endurance, etc. (someone with no dark power, like a robot or normal human HW, would really gain more). In his case, most of the benefit will come from knowing what he can do with such power and pushing himself harder because of it. Likewise, Hak Fu will be noticably stronger, faster, and tougher, might be able to do some basic dark chi attacks Street Fighter-style, maybe a MW, but not even close to a HW and still possessing mortal vunerabilities.
Captain N will have somewhat better reflexes and strength and will be more ruthless, but his gear won't be altered one bit.
It's not an extreme boost, not as much as with Loki (well, it can be in some cases. In Sailor Moon, he made Chibiusa, a kid, into an adult and gave her the ability to use her natural sailor-ish powers in a trained way plus a bit more, so it ended up being a big jump, but mostly because of the aging thing and controlling existing energy), it's more just overcharing what's already there, giving the person more power to work with and more of a killer instinct.
It's also how he controls minds, but I'd figure the SHWs, again, cancel each other out in the mind control department as they can each use their powers to protect the minds of their fellows.
But I hear Drac has more control over the environment...
Oh, the environment's going to be toast. Both SHWs use destructive weather and storms normally and call lighting (using vampire magic or dark lighting bolts respectively) all over the place.
Still, him boosting his LW, MW and HW, to MW, HW and SHW status seems to be a bit unfair to pretty much any other team who cannot do this (and as mention before, I do think other characters such as Genie, Oberon and Venger CAN magically do so as well) The idea of making them all in their weight classes is to make the teams overall even. If we allow the SHW to permanently augment his teammates to beyond this EVEN level (even if its just making them stronger, faster, tougher), again, it could make things quite unfair.
Originally posted by icymatt
I'm really torn...I mean Dracula's team has the better LW and MW (HWs are equal, in my mind), but his team has less synergy, except with Dracula and Mumm-Ra, who would have the same amount of team-up potential as Wiseman and Sesshy. But I hear Drac has more control over the environment...but Wiseman can scry....but Dracula can...but Wiseman can....GAH! I need more input from others. My vote is still with Dracula now.
How is Igoo better than Captain N? His abilitys don't help his team at all and in a 1 on 1 battle N would just blow him away with his blaster, the time stop wouldn't even be necessary. How do Mumm-ra and Dracula have the same amount of synergy as Sess and Wiseman? Wiseman's crystal absorbs evil magic for power and Sesshoumaru has a sword that shoots evil magic, neither Dracula nor Mumm-ra can power each other in any way.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 14:45
Originally posted by Q99
Ah, a worthy goal, but then the question is 'who kills the other's team first?'.
Due to scrying and teleportation, I believe Wiseman and his team can kill Drac's henchmen before Drac can kill WM's. Oh, and since Wiseman can teleport teammates, he can keep them protected and keep Drac from draining them by being a far larger threat to worry about than whatever little power Drac could gain from Hak Fu and Captain N (and Yank their power if they are taken out. He's a bastard like that. And against this team, only Sesshomaru is worthy of strong amounts of dark power). He's gonna have those same 10 minutes to consider what Drac's going to do and plan for it.
Wiseman can probably eat Mumm-Ra's ancient spirits of evil too with the dark crystal.
Eh, sure Teleportation is pretty fast, but Drac is no slouch when it comes to speed. When the Monster Force crew stole his coffin (around 3 am maybe) and he found out about 10 minutes before dawn (we'll say around 6) he caught up with them fast (this is surprising because they were flying in a very hi-tech, fast, and state-of-the-art plane). By the time he almost tore through the hull, dawn was approaching in 8 minutes to where they were headed.
Dracula could probably slaughter N and Hak in about 5 minutes (well 6 minutes since he'll also summon all the powers of nature he controls at them) after planning was done. Wiseman's probably just got Mumm Ra. By the time Wiseman has taken down Snake Eyes and Igoo (Igoo probably the hardest one, he's around Thing level durability if he's a giant rock-like creature), Drac has devoured the rest of Sess. So they're probably even in the destruction of their teams.
Physically, Igoo is much stronger than Captain N, but I guess all those crazy gadgets he has makes a bigger difference than I originally stated.
Hm..never quite thought Wiseman and Sesshomaru could power eachother...good point...
Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
Eh, sure Teleportation is pretty fast, but Drac is no slouch when it comes to speed. When the Monster Force crew stole his coffin (around 3 am maybe) and he found out about 10 minutes before dawn (we'll say around 6) he caught up with them fast (this is surprising because they were flying in a very hi-tech, fast, and state-of-the-art plane). By the time he almost tore through the hull, dawn was approaching in 8 minutes to where they were headed.
Dracula could probably slaughter N and Hak in about 5 minutes (well 6 minutes since he'll also summon all the powers of nature he controls at them) after planning was done. Wiseman's probably just got Mumm Ra. By the time Wiseman has taken down Snake Eyes and Igoo (Igoo probably the hardest one, he's around Thing level durability if he's a giant rock-like creature), Drac has devoured the rest of Sess. So they're probably even in the destruction of their teams.
For starters Dracula being able to catch up with a jet still makes him vastly slower than teleportation. How is he gonna know where to unleash anthing, he has no means of determining where Wiseman's team is (and they would be dumb not to be together), and they will always know where he is. Furthermore N can protect pretty much everyone from Dracula's weather mess as he can just stop time and give Wiseman plenty of time to just move out of the area (to anywhere else in the arena). Likewise if Dracula wants to engage them personally (through some miracle as he can't find them) they will know he is comeing and time stop him, letting the whole team whale on him for more than long enough to put him out of the fight (assumeing Sesshoumaru can't just do so in 1 hit). The only way Dracula is going to be picking people off is if Wiseman's team deceides to be very stupid.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 15:15
Originally posted by Rando
Even if for some reason fog obscures Wiseman's scryong ability as Sesshoumaru has tremendously enhanced senses, he can still function just fine in the fog, it isn't just Wiseman screwing stealth up it is both of them plus Captain N stopping time whenever anyone gets in the area. Fog will just make Snake Eyes unable to use his guns effectively, and make it all the easier for Wiseman's team to control the flow of the battle.
Would Sess be able to dodge a hurricane? And anyone smart enough is going to take down Captain N through stealth. You're not stopping anything if you don't know you're getting the smackdown. I doubt the fog will help anyone but Dracula as traveling under mist makes him completely invisible. Though I'm sure Snake Eyes would just about be similar with the stealth. The only one capable of much stealth on the other team would probably be Wiseman only if for the teleportation.
Originally posted by Rando
For Dracula to weather Wiseman's team down he needs to know where they are, he can't just bathe the arena in mess (even if he is physically capable of this) as that will kill his team, which isn't allowed. Captain N's time stop also makes a handy anti-weather defense, any bad stuff goes down and he just stops time and moves to a safer location. Wiseman similarly can just grab his team and teleport elswhere if he doesn't care for the atmospheric conditions in the general vicinity. Wiseman also has no such limitations with his long range attacks fog or no he will be looking right at the location of his chosen target, his attacks will all be much more precise and efficient. Dracula simply doesn't have the option to kill the other team first so long as they act as a team, they have means of defending each other Dracula offers his team no protection.
It's practically Dracula vs. Team Wiseman here, and if Wiseman and Drac are going to slaughter the other teammatess to gain more power then I don't think it really matters what Drac or Wiseman do to the terrain. And besides, Dracula could will it that the volcano erupts just on team Wiseman or that the earthquake splits just team Wiseman apart. And as for Captain N stopping time to move to a safer place, there's more than just a volcano or an earthquake coming at them. And Dracula will probably send large tornados and hurricanes at them. I doubt Captain N's localization of the time stops is big enough to stop every tornado and hurricane coming at him.
And well, if Wiseman and Co 'port over to Dracula to bring the pain to his unprotected team, then it's a lot easier since Drac just sends the devastation to where they are. Screw his team, they're dead with Wiseman nearby. It also makes it easier to pick off Wiseman's team if they all stick together since he knows where they are.
Originally posted by Rando
Considering 2 charatcers from Inuyasha are in the HW's and there is a laundry list of demons that have shown up in the show that are more powerful than both of them (either singly or together) I don't know how you came to the impression that it is a world of lowly middle-weight demons. In fact both of Sesshoumaru's swords (as well as Inuyasha's) are made from the teeth of demons who are almost certainly SHW monsters (which is why they are so powerful). It's possible that Dracula might resist being healed back to normal but by no means a sure thing.
No its a sure thing. Science tried to cure him and science should have worked because well, it was programmed specifically for him and yet it failed miserably simply because Dracula said no. Same thing is going to happen with Sess.
As for my statement earlier, I meant that the undead creatures Sess can rejuvinate were probably middleweight demons or less. Unless they're are specific examples of SHW monsters that were cured by Sess's sword, I'm pretty sure it will never work on Dracula. Mumm-ra maybe, but not Dracula.
Originally posted by Rando
The major difference between these teams is that Dracula is a team of individuals, none of them really help out the other, and in fact the presence of a team lessens the effectiveness of Dracula's blind weather attacks, as he has to throw them blind and so must concern himself with not hurting his team, especially if Snake Eyes is gonna want to creep around and do ninja stuff. They don't really assist each other in any way other than existing. Wiseman's team however synchs together marvelously paricularly in regards to assisting Wiseman in his long range bombardment tactics: Captain N plus Sesshoumaru make an incredible defensive buffer as Sess's enhanced senses will protect Captain N (and not just by warning him of incomeing attacks, Sess is more than capable of physically intercepting many suprise attacks) and allow N to simply nullify his most important weakness: being taken by suprise. On top of this Wiseman can give his team advanced notice of what their opponents are doing, they don't have to depend on just Sesshoumaru's enhanced senses they have backup information gathering tools in Wiseman. Wiseman's teleportation gives his team the ability to attack the other as sooner or later as they see fit, they can hole up and spend time letting Wiseman power up people on his team (while Sess likewise powers him up) or attack immidietly via teleportation if they are so inclined. The suprise advantage should always belong to Wiseman's team because of this, and that is a crushing advantage used in conjuction with N's time stop. It's like Duke says: "knowing is half the battle" and Wiseman's team will always be in the know about what is going on and what to do about it.
Eh, Drac doesn't throw them blind, in fact, this would be how he does the storms of destruction:
"Wiseman I will make you suffer! Your team shall be destroyed in my name!"
Blah blah blah, I'm evil, blah blah blah, then comes the thunder, lightning and a whole lot of other destruction comes. It comes for Wiseman because Drac willed it so. Dracula manipulates and controls the weather to a T. It's not, make a storm come this way, it's devastate team Wiseman.
The only thing that makes this fight a lot harder for Drac is that the team synchs well. If it didn't and it was just Wiseman as the villain and good guys who said screw you I don't wanna, then it's too easy for Drac and Drac alone. The only reason Drac will be so beat and hurt after the fight is only because of Wiseman. The only one definately capable of hurting Drac on the team is just Wiseman. Sess has to get close and hit a solid Dracula, and even then, Drac can just eat the rest of the team for sustenance if he's drained.
And the only one surprising people is going to be Dracula on the LW, MW, and HW on Wiseman's team, and vice versa for Wiseman. If the team teleports on top of Drac's team, Drac escapes destroys that part of the area since his teammates are as good as gone (plus he doesn't really care), and he picks off whoever is left. Heck he could easily take Captain N and make him his slave-hey now Drac can stop time! I'd hate to think what would happen if Drac went of Sess first on that idea . . .
And knowing is half the battle. Knowing yourself and knowing your enemy is the battle. Team Wiseman doesn't know enough about Dracula to stop him. They may not what hurts him, they may know what he's planning, but they'll never know where he is, and as soon as it's just Wiseman vs. Drac, Drac is assured victory now. The prep time, the rematch, and the terrain favor him too well.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 15:23
Originally posted by Rando
For starters Dracula being able to catch up with a jet still makes him vastly slower than teleportation. How is he gonna know where to unleash anthing, he has no means of determining where Wiseman's team is (and they would be dumb not to be together), and they will always know where he is. Furthermore N can protect pretty much everyone from Dracula's weather mess as he can just stop time and give Wiseman plenty of time to just move out of the area (to anywhere else in the arena). Likewise if Dracula wants to engage them personally (through some miracle as he can't find them) they will know he is comeing and time stop him, letting the whole team whale on him for more than long enough to put him out of the fight (assumeing Sesshoumaru can't just do so in 1 hit). The only way Dracula is going to be picking people off is if Wiseman's team deceides to be very stupid.
No, the team won't know where Dracula is. Foggy area combined with his mist traveling ensures his invisibilty. And Dracula caught up with something similar to a Concord that had a three hour headstart. He's pretty fast when traveling as his misty self.
Like I've said before, if Drac sends the most powerful tornadoes and hurricanes, N's localized time stops aren't going to help. Period. And if he is able to stop one tornado/hurricane, he won't stop the rest coming for him, and thats to say that Drac doesn't go for him first and make him his slave. Drac could easily make his final battle with Wiseman a 4 on 1 and if Dracula barely lost to Wiseman before, Captain N, Sess, and Hak all fueled with Wiseman's dark energy are going to overpower Wiseman easily.
And considering team Wiseman is going up against a very tactical mind, they are considered quite stupid to Dracula.
I think I'm going to list form. I like lists.
1.Stealth is useless against Sesshoumaru and Wiseman. Sesshoumaru has Wolverine-esque enhanced senses, Wiseman has scrying, the team will know stuff is comeing far before it gets there and the fog insures that everyone has to come into melee range. Captain N isn't going anywhere.
2.Dracula can't blow up his own team, against the rules.
3.An earthquake will not split Wiseman's team up, as soon as the earth starts to open N just stops time and Wiseman teleports everyone away, Drac has accomplished nothing.
4.In one story arc of Inuyasha a tribe of Panther demons ressurects their master, who was a match for Inuyasha's very much SHW father in battle. This thing gets sucessfully fully ressurected but uses the souls of his followers (the panther demons, all of which were middle to HW) to do so. He then procedds to whopp on Inuyasha, his entire supporting cast (2 or 3 more middle-heavy weights) Sesshoumaru, and some other miscellaneous middle-heavy weight demons. Tireing of this Sesshoumaru pulls out his healing sword and kills it in a single hit, restoring it's followers souls in the process.
5.Erupting the volcano is also probably not gonna be very effecitve. The ash cloud will be a threat to none of the HW's and SHW's and Sess can heal his lower guys from it's effects, it will aslo be Dracula attacking his team, so again not allowed. The lava will favor the team that can teleport:Wiseman.
6.If Dracula wants to play the weather manipualtion game with Wiseman I'll pick Wiseman every time. One is actually composed of magical energy and has a guy there to supercharge him, Drac doesn't. Furthmore if Drac has to monologue to summon weather then he is gonna be an east target for a teleportation assault or any of Wiseman's various attacks.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 15:51
1: It's only stealthy because Dracula gets the drop on him. It's practically invisibilty Dracula uses. Now Sess might be able to dodge a couple of Drac's onslaughts but if Drac gets N first and uses the time stop on Sess, he's got Sess and N on his side fighting against Wiseman.
2: Dracula won't blow up his team. Wiseman's team slaughters it, then he blows up the island.
3: Eh, you can't time stop an earthquake that's raging across the island if your time stops are only localized. Much less hurricanes and tornados, raging storms, or volcanoes.
4: ??? So Sess killed the demon with a sword, and revived the souls of demons? I don't see how it would affect Dracula then, since you'd have to free his soul or at least kill him with it. I've already said that the only one who can actually hurt Dracula is only Wiseman.
5: Eh, Sesshoumaru can easily get killed by the lava. It's over thousands of degrees and traveling quite fast. And if he is able to avoid the lava, breathing in the gases will boil his brain, or organs.
6: Of just the two (Wiseman and Drac), Dracula probably has the better base manipulation and control of weather. Sess probably just makes it even, which is why Dracula conquers and controls Wiseman's team first then outright kills him.
Rando, can I ask a silly question?
Just how is Wiseman casting all of these spells from within Captain N's time-stopped sphere? Because all of your examples of the time-stop protecting them from area effects would require Wiseman to be inside the time-stop to be protected. And the only person not frozen in the time-stop is Captain N.
1.Sess smells Dracula and either tells N to stop time or pushes the button himself before Drac gets to close combat but is still within the time stop range. The team then goes directly to him and pounds on him or teleports away as they see fit. Nobody has to intercept Dracula physically at all.
3.Don't need to stop the Earthquake or Tornado or whatever, just the part of it that is in the time stop that would affect you (although stopping the motion of part of a Tornado would proably stop the whole thing anyway).
4.You can think that Dracula is immune to everyone if you want to considering N's gun can easily damage SHW's and Sesshoumaru can and has in single combat I think I'll presume differently.
5.the Lava, even if it were moveing quickly across the entire 30 mile expanse of this arena would still be going far, far slower than teleportation, would still be subject to time stops, and would almost certainly still be slower than Sesshoumaru himself moves. It would be a threat if he deceided to stand in it for some reason.
6.Which would still require Dracula to find them somehow.
Originally posted by Grinner
Rando, can I ask a silly question?
Just how is Wiseman casting all of these spells from within Captain N's time-stopped sphere? Because all of your examples of the time-stop protecting them from area effects would require Wiseman to be inside the time-stop to be protected. And the only person not frozen in the time-stop is Captain N.
I was under the impression that N's time stop excludes whomever or whatever he wants it to.
Originally posted by Rando
I was under the impression that N's time stop excludes whomever or whatever he wants it to.
While everything I've seen has it pausing everything in the area of effect aside from him.
Well it can't be everything exactly, he couldn't move through the time stopped air then (or breath for that matter). He also wouldn't be able to manipulate the environment (i.e. hurt people) if he could somewhat exclude things from the effect as he saw fit. Can you think of a time when there were other people or things that N would have wanted to still move and couldn't?
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 17:51
Originally posted by Rando
1.Sess smells Dracula and either tells N to stop time or pushes the button himself before Drac gets to close combat but is still within the time stop range. The team then goes directly to him and pounds on him or teleports away as they see fit. Nobody has to intercept Dracula physically at all.
3.Don't need to stop the Earthquake or Tornado or whatever, just the part of it that is in the time stop that would affect you (although stopping the motion of part of a Tornado would proably stop the whole thing anyway).
4.You can think that Dracula is immune to everyone if you want to considering N's gun can easily damage SHW's and Sesshoumaru can and has in single combat I think I'll presume differently.
5.the Lava, even if it were moveing quickly across the entire 30 mile expanse of this arena would still be going far, far slower than teleportation, would still be subject to time stops, and would almost certainly still be slower than Sesshoumaru himself moves. It would be a threat if he deceided to stand in it for some reason.
6.Which would still require Dracula to find them somehow.
1: If Sess senses Dracula's proximity then it's already too late. If Dracula can catch a Concord that had a good head start then I sincerely doubt they'll have enough time to attack him-maybe teleport out of the way, but to where? Dracula will find them again.
3: If you stop part of a tornado, another will come, and then another, and another, and another. Dracula is very relentless and so are his storms.
4: Eh, most attacks designed to hurt Dracula specifically have failed in the show. The only one that worked for a short period of time was what almost made him human-that device made him mad enough to destroy an entire island.
5: That's why I said it won't just be the lava that can kill the team, it will also be breathing near it. Breathing such gases can cause the lungs, brain, heart, skin, and any other organ to boil and burst. I'm gonna guess that Captain N, Hak, or even Sesshoumaru have similar organs to that of humans and that 1000 level degree heat from such gases is going to hurt those organs.
6: Like I said, Drac is pretty fast, and he could just have the tornado pick one member of the team up and fling em' towards him. It both hurts the victim and makes him subject to Dracula's greatest power-is ability to make his own kind.
1.I highly doubt Dracula can close and rush past Sesshoumaru and Hak before he or N can push a button.
3.Good for them, they can all be stopped just as effortlessly.
4.So it's your contention that Dracula cannot be hurt?
5.The gases are non exclusive, they will effect Dracula's team as well meaning Dracula can't cause the volcano to erupt it would kill his team (or parts of it). In addition Dracula has organs similar to humans, in fact exaclty like them, even more so than the demon Sesshoumaru who has acid spit.
6.For staters I don't beleive for a second that Dracula can direct a Tornado with that kind of control. In addition the defenses agaisnt tornados that Wiseman's team has will work just as well (time stops, telekinesis, weather control, force fields, teleportation) to prevent that tornado as any other. Finally to make someone undead Dracula must first make them dead which removes said entities from the match, so he can't vampire up anyone.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 18:26
1: Considering he can catch a some sort of futuristic Concord ship that had about 3 or so hours of head startedness they won't be able to press a button before Drac grabs N by the throat.
3: Heres what happens then:
"Oh no, a Tornado is heading right toward us!"
"Don't worry, I'm Captain N, I can stop time!"
*Pause*
"Oh no, another Tornado is heading right at us!"
"Don't worry, I'm Captain N, I can stop time!"
*Pause*
"Hey dip####! You just unpaused the Tornado that was coming at us last time."
"Oh. ####."
4: Eh, he's very durable, most attacks never really touched him. I already said the only thing that he really feared was the power of the sun (just the sun).
Captain N's device that has harmed superheavyweights would probably just sting Drac for a bit, then it won't work anymore.
Sess's most devastating attacks would probably do the most damage, but they'd have to connect, and Dracula usually makes the first and only move of a fight.
Wiseman's dark magic would probably be the only thing capable of consistently hurting Dracula on account of it's versatility and brimming power. However, Drac knows how to combat this since he has combatted it before.
5: For the gases to melt your brain and organs, you'd have to inhale them. Dracula doesn't need to breathe. As for the decay of the flesh, mist doesn't have flesh.
6: If Dracula can control the weather by simple commands of his will, then he could potentially direct the tornadoes and hurricanes in that way. Otherwise he just uses them as destruction. Now time stopping the weather effects is useless (see 3), the weather control might work, but since it was already commanded by Dracula, good luck trying to override his own will. Having force fields will limit the amount of oxygen, and Drac can send disasters for good amount of time. Eventually the oxygen will be gone and people start suffocating. Then it's Drac vs. Wiseman and maybe Sesshoumaru. Teleportation is just running away from the devastation. It doesn't stop it.
As for vamping-it's not necessarily true. Drac can just bite them, and with his venom coursing through their bodies he can control them.
1.If Dracula is moveing faster then a jet, they won't need to, it will be impossible to be stealthy like that and then Wiseman just teleports everyone away, which then leaves Dracula with no way to find them. In addition if Dracula is so amazeingly fast how does he get enagaged by Frankenstein's monster? Is that thing moveing faster than the speed of sound?
3.If they see the Tornado comeing the pause isn't even necessary, a simple telportation will be far more effective. Although how Dracula is sending tornado's at people with pinpoint accuracy is beyond me. Why didn't he just do this to Monster Force, or their jet when they stole his coffin for that matter?
4.N's device that harms SHW will just sting Dracula? So Dracula is dramatically tougher than SHW's?
5.Mist disperses in extreme heat, it is condensed moisture (much less extreme heat than it takes to sizzle flesh).
6.So Dracula can have a tornado find a guy pick him up and deposit him at Dracula's feet, but has to chase down a jet huh? I'll take the Dormammu clone over Dracula in terms of magical mastery (and therefore weather priority). Why would a forcefield be air tight unless the maker thereof wanted it to be? Running away from the devestation stops it fine as Drac doesn't know if the devestation is still doing anything or not. I'll also note that there is nothing about how Dracula is gonna stop from being devistated by Wiseman, just that Dracula somehow demands first strike (despite the fact that he apparently has to go through long incantations to do this stuff) and then never has to stop attacking while just disregarding attacks sent his way that don't require any incantation on wiseman's part that will be comeing down with almost pinpoint accurracy as Wiseman can actually see his target while he's attacking it.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 19:07
1: Drac wanted to teach Frank a lesson by whupping him himself. He turned into his demonic form. He travels extremely fast in the form of mist.
3: Drac chased down the Monster Force crew to capture them (and make Reed Crawley suffer for his insolence) and get his coffin back. Destroying the ship would destroy his coffin and well, he's quite personal apparently.
4: N's a middleweight that de-digitizes game enemies. His weapon has probably only harmed superheavyweights because he could stop time, they were game characters, or both. It harmed superheavies doesn't mean it's going to kill them. It will probably sting Dracula for a bit because he's durable, and uses his immense will to overcome pain.
5: At least his skin doesn't boil off. And he can basically direct which way the lava goes. For the most part Dracula does have a better control of what happens.
6: Eh, Drac isn't a wizard, he knows magic, but if he had to harm people, it'd probably be through his own hands because it holds a psychological affect on them (keep in mind, thats his most effect battle tactic). He chased down a jet to capture the Monster Force team to 1: kill them personally. 2: Capture them and torment/vamp them as to make Reed Crawley suffer and 3: ensure the safety of his coffin.
Most force fields are airtight. If Wiseman's arent, then the hurricanes, heated gases, and other unwanted conditions would gain access and annihilate the team.
Like I said, Dracula manipulates the weather to his will. He proclaims a storm to kill his foes. The storms don't stop until Dracula says so or the foes are dead.
Eh, Dracula gets first strike on Wiseman's teammates either through stealth, speed, savagery, tactics, or a combination of the four. When it does come down to Wiseman vs. Dracula, Dracula already has fought him, gained preparation time, and knows how to beat him. It doesn't matter how the battle folds, since Dracula will win this time.
Heh heh heh....welcome to the MSU Corps Prof A. You can be cabin boy. Rando is the construct, we are all AE to him. I am Admiral, DTM is Captain, I think Grinner is Lieutenant.
1.So Dracula is known for fits of pique and can only travel really fast in a form that the localized conditions would be very damageing to that could also be easily contained by tlekinetic force which Wiseman can produce.
3.If Drac can't control the tornado's enough to keep from haveing a jet and his coffin destroyed by them how is he getting them to deliver people to them?
4.Since N's powers act like he is in his world Dracula (and all other characters) effecively are game characters. If you harm something it does mean that repeated application will kill them.
5.It means his entire body breaks apart, a far scenario. When did Dracula gain the ability to direct lava anyway?
6. If Dracula actively makes it a point to strangle people and that is his preffered and most effecitve tactic than the weatherbombardment you have been touting would be against his character. Wind is a form of force something can still stop the wind but allow air to enter, the arena isn't filled with poison gas, so that isn't even something that needs to be worried about. So Dracula can make storms that chase people anywhere that never stop, but he just won't do this to anyone in the Monster Force? If it is not in his character to do so, then why is that something that he is doing now?
Stealth is an absolute non-issue, this terrain couldn't support fog it's too hot (not that Wiseman couldn't disperse fog around him easily), savagery doesn't mean anything it isn't even a relevant trait, your post above contains more than one indication of Dracula actively chooseing to pursue poor tactical decisions, I see no reason to presume he won't continue to act in such a manner. Because Dracula got beat by Wiseman in no way means that he won't get beat by him again, Wiseman has fought Dracula too, and he actually figured out how to win the first time. It doesn't hurt that Wiseman's team is better too.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 20:11
1: No, as opposed to traveling as a gaseous form of mist, his body becomes ghost like. He still retains all his physicalness, except he cannot be harmed through physical means. He would only use it for traveling quickly and in most cases achieve a first strike.
3: It's not only destroying the coffin he chased after the jet for, he also wanted to capture the Monster Force crew. If he captures them, and makes them a part of his minions, then he's accomplished two things: Made his archenemy suffer at the fact that he's vampirized people he has loved and he's defeated more enemies and created more monsters that serve him. Dracula is a brilliant mind in military strategy. It's brilliant to conquer your enemies and then make them serve your means as opposed to outright killing them. And like I said, his most preferred method of attack is up close and personal for psychological means.
4: Therefore, the attacks will hurt Dracula, but it will not destroy him. It will harm him. And eventually, it will no longer harm him because he'll ignore the pain. No will is higher than his.
5: He doesn't direct the lava, he directs the volcano on how to erupt. If Wiseman and Co are "there" then the volcano erupts "there" because Dracula "said so".
6: When he's really pissed (like right now since he's facing a worthy adversary), he'll use whatever he wants, but the finishing blow will be directed through his claw and fang. If Dracula wants Wiseman to suffer, then he'll make it rain, storm, hail, freeze, etc. to bring Wiseman to his knees. Then Dracula will lay the finishing strike that assures his victory.
He usually doesn't outright attack the Monster Force, because they aren't in his way. He's only done so twice and that's when they went out of their way to tick him off. Other times he had a plan within a plan, they find out, they try to stop, they succeed with a helluva lot of luck, Dracula is forced to retreat because of that luck (either it's the sun or things that are far more powerful than him).
The terrain is too hot to support fog? Well then why is there is a snow blizzard? When he lays the smack down he's very cruel at it, often throwing his opponents at walls or strangling them with one hand as he laughs at their misfortune.
The fact that Dracula almost lost to Wiseman means Dracula won't lose again. Consider him like Doomsday as that he doesn't fall for the same thing twice. Wiseman beat him once, that's all he will ever beat him. Dracula will make no mistakes, he'll have excellent plans and a perfect strategy that is fool-proof (mostly because Renfield isn't with him). This time he crushes Wiseman and makes him suffer. He controls and uses Wiseman's teammates against him, he is relentless and angered. He will not stop until he has vanquished the opposing team.
I think I should reconsider my vote from the entire team to just Dracula . . .
I would like to say I would gladly pay to watch this post-apocalyptic battle. Fighting experts, rock monsters, time stoppers, and tons of demonic and dark magic flying everywhere!
But I would have to say Team Dracula, because I believe that Count Dracula will definately pull out all the stops just to defeat Wiseman, you can bet that Dracula will be enraged and turn all hell lose on Wiseman for vengeance. And Dracula does get his revenge in my opinion. I pity the teammates who will get in the crossfire...
So my vote: Team Dracula
Well I've seen the Dracula destroys every terrain that has a sky with his amazeing weather control whilest rampageing acrost it invicibly with his absolute tacitcal perfection song and dance routine before. I think 2 pages of it is plenty for me as opposed to the usual 6 or so.
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 21:41
Well he's not invincible-
oh wait, he is, that's what makes him a superheavy.
But at least he's not perfect with his weather manipulation-
oh wait, he is, that's what makes him a superheavy.
Although he cannot be tactically brilliant with the help of millienias of experience-
oh wait, he is, that's what makes him a superheavy.
What did you expect from a high end superheavyweight?
On the matter of Wiseman making his team into Dark Puppets.
Hak Fu: We've seen a Dark Energised Hak Fu before. It was Hak Fu, but somewhat stronger, faster and tougher. Still a LW, but now a high-end one.
Captain N: Captain N's a goody two shoes. He'll gain little benefit from being a Dark Puppet.
Sesshoumaru: This is where it gets scary. Sess will pretty much change to his True Self under the influence of Wiseman's Dark Magic. He'll go straight to very high end HW as a result.
The real benefit of it is for Wiseman. He has an empathic sensory and telepathic link with his Dark Puppets. BANG! Instant communication and tactical awareness. The already alarming synergy of this team reaches epic proportions.
More than any other team in this tourney, Wiseman and his crew are a TEAM
Rokk_Krinn
04/10/2005, 22:16
Aragorn, there's a difference between having a character be a SHW and continually insisting that your SHW can do anything and is invincible to any attack except sunlight - which was removed as a "kindness" - and thus should auto-win. Sorry man, but how many times did Dracula actually make the earth erupt and quake if he was continually "planning behind the scenes" in Monster Force (I admit, in the episodes I saw he didn't do all these massive weather and earth control stunts but I didn't see the whole series)?
As for "catching up to the plane a few minutes before dawn", eh, considering that was "one-of" that didn't jive with what we'd seen previously, I still feel that was "writer's time goof error" more than "100x faster than an SST".
Prof. Aragorn
04/10/2005, 23:12
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Aragorn, there's a difference between having a character be a SHW and continually insisting that your SHW can do anything and is invincible to any attack except sunlight - which was removed as a "kindness" - and thus should auto-win. Sorry man, but how many times did Dracula actually make the earth erupt and quake if he was continually "planning behind the scenes" in Monster Force (I admit, in the episodes I saw he didn't do all these massive weather and earth control stunts but I didn't see the whole series)?
Eh, Drac is pretty durable, most attacks he shrugged off or ignored. Wiseman can hurt him like I said, but other than that, the others really can't.
He's done some storms, but he doesn't tend to do grand scale destruction storms unless he has a bone to pick. In the episode where he almost became human due to that machine combined with the fact that the monster force stole his coffin, he would probably be fuming. So he has the island rocked with hurricanes, storms and everything.
Otherwise his schemes require subtlety or a lack of destruction. If he's angry, and he's suppose to fight, he'll bring it. He brought it to the Frankenstein Monster, he brought it to a vampiric equal of his, and he'll bring it to team wiseman.
He doesn't really tend to use his weather manipulation because it isn't needed. In a fight against someone equal to him and 3 other challenging opponents, it probably will be needed.
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
As for "catching up to the plane a few minutes before dawn", eh, considering that was "one-of" that didn't jive with what we'd seen previously, I still feel that was "writer's time goof error" more than "100x faster than an SST".
Good point, they also probably stole the coffin just before Dracula arrived so about 30 minutes before dawn. I'd still consider him pretty fast though, in the first episode the sun dieties were killing him and he had to exit, so he makes a brake for it and while it wasn't hyper sonic speed, it still was pretty fast. He'd still probably be able to travel to the other side of the arena just under Wiseman's teleportation.
Cryomancer
04/11/2005, 03:09
I can very easily see Snake Eyes taking out Captain N, cant stop time to dodge an attack you dont know is coming. Ive seen enough Wiseman vs. Dracula arguements here so no need to go into that. I vote Team Dracula.
deadalus13
04/11/2005, 03:47
I vote for team Wiseman.
They will have better battlefield intel, better mobility, and better team synergy.
They can easily pick off Dracula's LW and MW by using scrying and teleportation to make fast focused hit and run attacks. Dracula can not just pick off Wiseman's LW, MW and HW as has been suggested. Wiseman's team will be smart enough to stay close and fight as a group. If Drac goes in and starts to pick off Wiseman's teammates, he will leave himself open to Wiseman's attacks. If he doesn't try to pick off Wiseman's teammates, he will lose to a guy that has already beat him once and now has additional support to help.
So Prof, looks like Dracula was out First Round...AGAIN. :p
Prof. Aragorn
04/11/2005, 20:25
Eh, I guess it's for the best . . . this was the team that had the best chance to defeat Drac. I don't think even Spike (with range mind you) could have beat this guy.
I think the only thing that got Wiseman over the line here is the near perfect synergy of his team.
And Prof A, you said back in the SHW tourney that if anyone deserves to beat Dracula, its Wiseman. Shame, this would have made an insane Final.
Prof. Aragorn
04/11/2005, 22:23
Nah, the final would have been Spike vs. Dracula :p
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