Mavel/DC Team-Up: Round 1 Hero Match 1

[Maniac_nmt]

Greetings and welcome to the first season of our fine competition. I would like to welcome young and old to our intergalactic battles of some of the multi-verse's finest.

Two teams will battle it out, live, before your very eyes. In homage to the classic comic title "Marvel Team-Up" we have 'appropriated' heros and villians from the DC and Marvel universe to battle it out for the title.

Matches are to the kill or ko. Contestants are barred from leaving or removing their foes from the arena. Contact can be maintained with beings they are normally in contact with as part of their powers (ie Shazam can still use the Wisdom of Solomon, and Dr. Fate can still contact Nabu from inside his amulet, but they may not leave to the Rock of Ages, or to Dr. Fate's Tower, someone like Batman could not contact Oracle however). Each team will be given 45 minutes to prepare for the comming conflict. During that time neither team is permitted to alter the battlefield in any way, shape or form. Nor may they alter a team-mate (although individuals may alter themselves).

From the heros bracket I give you our first match:

In corner number 1:

Captain Marvel and the Scarlet Witch

In corner number 2:

Captain Atom and Warbird

The site for todays match:

JSA Sky rise

After the Brownstone was destroyed, Lex Luthor commissioned a sky-scrapper to be built as the JSA's new headquarters. Lower floors contain the JSA museum. It's halls showcase statues and memorabilia from their long and glorious history. Upper floors contain the various living quarters, meeting room, infirmary and so forth. A large, unbreachable field has descended preventing the contestants from leaving the arena. It cordons off the surrounding street, and the building itself.


Let the voting begin!

[icymatt]

Oooohhhh...toughie. But Captain Marvel & Scarlet Witch are both good magic users, so I'll vote for them.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Well, wouldn't say Captain Marvel is a "magic-user" but rather he's just powered by magic. Scarlet Witch's power is to use hex bolts - it's a mutant ability but because of her name (and recent events) people tend to think she's a sorceress. She's not (other than a few generic spells taught to her by Agatha Harkness) - she's just really a mutant probability alterer (and it's not always very controllable for her, though she's gotten better over the years).

Nontheless, Wanda knows Warbird pretty darn good - they were very close in the Avengers - and Atom has great tactical knowledge of Captain Marvel, so both teams have a solid working knowledge of the other. Atom is the better strategist, by far, and will probably do his best to take down Wanda fast as she's the wildcard (and Warbird, while unable to beat CM is likely able to at least tie him up for awhile).

I was originally thinking the physically superior Marvel would tie this up for his team, but upon further contemplation, the fact that Wanda's probably going to get taken down by Atom, leaving Marvel to face Warbird (not an insignificant threat) and Atom together actually has me changing my mind.

Vote: Captain Atom & Warbird...and I admit I'm surprised. :)

[Prof. Aragorn]

Ah yes, almost forgot about the prep time.

With the prep time, I can see Atom using the intel from his teammate to take out Scarlet before she makes things hectic for the fight. While Captain Marvel is up there on the shw power list, Atom is probably just as powerful. It'll be a nice fight, but in the end Marvel is short a teammate and he'll probably end up losing.

Vote: Warbird and Captain Atom (Sorry Goldenage . . .)

[Magnito]

Wanda is no chump. i don't think she can beat warbird, but she'll give her a run for her money. A also belive that CM will waste CA. This leave Warbird vs. Captain Marvel, and I don't think that match will last too long. My vote...
CAPTAIN MARVEL AND SCARLET WITCH

[Rokk_Krinn]

Atom and Warbird are both tactical thinkers. I imagine they're smart enough to not just have the HW and SHW's pair-off automatically when it makes sense for Warbird (who's a high-end HW and can survive a fracas with Marvel - don't forget she has among other things a "danger sense" which will make it tough for even CM to land a solid hit) to tie up Marvel while Atom makes quick work of Wanda. The Witch may not be a chump but against a barrage of atomic bolts from a superhumanly fast straffer, well, she's in trouble.

[Magnito]

I just thought that they would go after the one they know. that way there are no suprises.

[Maniac_nmt]

While Wanda may not dirrectly be a spell caster in the traditional sense. Her hex powers allow her to influence and control magic, and also produce a number of magic like affects by controlling large areas of probability (such as redirrecting a massive, city wide cloud of biological toxins, or summoning the Avengers and Wonderman when trapped by Morgan Le Fay).

Anything up to just prior to Avenges Dissasembled is permissable for Wanda.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Except that with prep time, their teammate has plenty of time to fill each other in - Atom was once Marvel's team leader while Warbird was best friends with Wanda. Atom's likely smart enough to know he can't best Marvel one-on-one and that Wanda's powers can tip things way too easily, so smart tactics (something both Atom and Warbird are constantly portrayed as having) would say trade-off long enough to make it a two-on-one battle.

[Maniac_nmt]

Also, to be fair, Captain Marvel is no slouch in the tactics department. The Wisdom of Solomon often enables him to choose the correct course of action when other heros are stumped.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
While Wanda may not dirrectly be a spell caster in the traditional sense. Her hex powers allow her to influence and control magic, and also produce a number of magic like affects by controlling large areas of probability (such as redirrecting a massive, city wide cloud of biological toxins, or summoning the Avengers and Wonderman when trapped by Morgan Le Fay).

Anything up to just prior to Avenges Dissasembled is permissable for Wanda.

Not only do the higher powered effects tend to drain Wanda and drop her, but things like summoning the Avengers & Wonder Man are done during extreme duress when her power levels have built up. Her standard "battle prowess" usage of hex bolts aren't quite on that level.

More importantly, Wanda has no superhuman attributes such as protection. One atomic bolt or "binary" blast (from Warbird) will drop Wanda. Heck, a near miss tends to stun the fairly frail Witch (you have to admit she gets stunned a _lot_ in the comics :) )

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
Also, to be fair, Captain Marvel is no slouch in the tactics department. The Wisdom of Solomon often enables him to choose the correct course of action when other heros are stumped.

But that rarely manifests as "tactical" (battle) wisdom or intelligence. Take a look at the recent JLA issue where Marvel got cocky and almost died for it. He was doing the "intelligent" thing of commenting how the "galaxy destroying battleship" wasn't _that_ tough...and a moment later got turned inside out from a tesseract bomb. Marvel has access to _wisdom_ - which isn't the same as smart maneuvering - but doesn't always use it (something Mary has frequently lectured him for doing).

[malreux]

Ok, all else being equal, and everyone knowing each other, I think the big deciding factor here is that both Atom and Warbird can take more than a few hits, whereas Wanda only has room for one mistake and she is out of the game. That said, Marvel might be close to a match for both of them once they can team up on him, but I don't think he would take it. I could see it going either way based on luck (Which gives Wanda a few more points I know) but I think That Atom and Warbird take it.

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn

More importantly, Wanda has no superhuman attributes such as protection. One atomic bolt or "binary" blast (from Warbird) will drop Wanda. Heck, a near miss tends to stun the fairly frail Witch (you have to admit she gets stunned a _lot_ in the comics :) )

True, but this is a mostly indoor envrionment. Meaning a quick strafing run won't be that easy.

I'm not voting for either side here (although the Captain Atom and Warbird team gets props for being one of the coolest in the tourney, two military officers turned super hero, turned national defense weapon). Just noting, it won't be as easy as zoom over, blast Wanda, and call it a day.

I mean, if all else fails, neither Atom nor Warbird know Captain Marvel is Billy. Finding a lost young man in the middle of a battlefield could give a nice edge when the lightning bolt nails the surrounding area (although in Warbirds case, to be fair, she could probably absorb the energy of bolt and be super charged, when she crashed into a power substation, she sucked up the power from the whole grid, but has not been shown to be able to absorb raw energy blasts, such as a repulsor shot).

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
I mean, if all else fails, neither Atom nor Warbird know Captain Marvel is Billy. Finding a lost young man in the middle of a battlefield could give a nice edge when the lightning bolt nails the surrounding area (although in Warbirds case, to be fair, she could probably absorb the energy of bolt and be super charged, when she crashed into a power substation, she sucked up the power from the whole grid, but has not been shown to be able to absorb raw energy blasts, such as a repulsor shot).

Well, if people are going to disguise themselves, by the same token it's going to be tough for Wanda and Marvel to find Captain Atom when he goes "human looking" (especially since he can alter his appearance somewhat when he does so). :)

Carol's current powers are basically a "meeting in the middle" of her Ms. Marvel days (ergo her Sixth Sense which manifests as a "spidey-sense" and minor precog to make her darn tough to outmaneuver or successfully hit) and her Binary days, which means she can probably absorb a decent amount of energy. She's also been shown to manifest her "White Hole" (no jokes, please - that's really where the powers came from :) ) energies as "pin-point" bursts around her hand to deflect shots.

[GoldenAge]

I'm not certain that Captain Marvel couldn't take this battle alone. We all know what Marvel might can do to Captain Atom (Thanks for the giggle Mary :cheeky: )

Cap's speed is unmatched here
Cap's strength is unmatched
Cap's invulnerability is unmatched
Cap's power is unmatched...

Add to that the chaos magic wielded by Scarlet witch... Hex bolts that can potentially cause a leak in Captain Atom's silvery shell or eliminate Warbird's sight with ease...

Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch for the win.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
Ah yes, almost forgot about the prep time.

With the prep time, I can see Atom using the intel from his teammate to take out Scarlet before she makes things hectic for the fight. While Captain Marvel is up there on the shw power list, Atom is probably just as powerful. It'll be a nice fight, but in the end Marvel is short a teammate and he'll probably end up losing.

Vote: Warbird and Captain Atom (Sorry Goldenage . . .)

Perhaps people who are saying that Captain Atom's tactical background will change things should reconsider (BTW: Warbird is inept... How many times has she made bad decisions angering Captain America and endangering her teammates?)

The combined knowledge of Atom and Warbird might be sufficient to outmaneuver Marvel in a 0-time start... But Cap has 45 minutes to plan... Ask yourself if he'd call upon the Wisdom of Solomon then... Yes he would.

In JSA #43 Captain Marvel reveals that he's studied EVERY SINGLE MAJOR TACTICAL GENIOUS throughout history!

Here it is: (Egypt, the 15th dynasty... Vandal Savage's army approaches...)

Prince Khufu: "I fear Vandal's sand-homunculi are nigh invincible!"

Mr. Terrific: "Perhaps. But we've got the benefit of future sight on our side. Alexander the Great, Theodoric, Napoleon -- All of these are warriors yet to be born. But in my time, they're already figures of history."

CAPTAIN MARVEL: "Terrific's right. I've studied every last one of them. And we can apply innovations they'll develop. Take Aeneus Tacticus for instance, He wrote -- or will write -- a treatise called 'How To Survive Under Siege'...

...We've got every battle from the last FIVE THOUSAND years at out fingertips."

Now tell me, Isn't this the stuff they teach at West Point? Yup, Cap DOES know more about strategy than Captain Atom... And with 45 minute to commune with a chorus of gods and heroes... He'll out-plan the two military brats hands down!

[GoldenAge]

Maniac, understanding which universe we're in could become an issue. Some may argue that Scarlet Witch is more powerful in a DC universe and that the Flash is weaker in a Marvel Universe.

I'm of the opinion that we take each character at their absolute best and disregard the "universe" question... But it's your thread and, in the name of heading off bad arguments, you might want to make a statement to clear things up. ;)

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
(BTW: Warbird is inept... How many times has she made bad decisions angering Captain America and endangering her teammates?)


Only when she was having a problem with alcoholism. I doubt you'd call Tony Stark "inept" when he's at the top of his game - as Carol currently is - so I don't think you can say Warbird is "inept" here (unless she thinks the whole thing is so ridiculous she stops in at one of the Gotham bars :) )

[The Mad Titan]

I agree with GoldenAge Captain could proably take this alone.

Scarlet Witch would proably never get touched.

[GoldenAge]

Hmmmm... What do you think the odds are that Warbird will fall off the wagon? Wanda does have a way of manipulating those odds. :cheeky:

But really, Maniac stated that Wanda's power is equal to just before Unassembled. By then she wasn't just throwing around mutant hexes. She had become a skilled sorceress and had developed, with considerable success, the combination of her innate control of Chaos Magic with her spells.

I'm absolutely sure that it would be a simple thing for her to conjure up a scrying spell at the beginning of the 45-minute that would allow her and Marvel to keep constant tabs on Atom and Warbird.

Once in battle her magic would be incredibly dangerous to Warbird and especially Captain Atom, who is constantly battling the reality that he's a bomb waiting to blow.

Scarlet Witch takes Captain Atom out of the fight early with a small spell doused with chaos magic that reduces the integrity of Captain Atom's shell before he even reaches the fight. Captain Atom, realizing that the slightest damage to his skin would kill everyone within a 50 square mile radius, does the right thing and drops out of the contest. Then Wanda, with assurances from Marvel that he wont hurt her friend, steps back and allows Captain Marvel to take care of Warbird.

[Rokk_Krinn]

And when have we seen Wanda do any spell casting akin to that? Seriously, she may have _said_ she was working on her magical powers but we never actually saw her do anything with it. Soon as she got into action in Avengers - even right before Disassembled - it was right back to standard hex bolts. I think the gal's all talk. :)

[Prof. Aragorn]

One of these days we got to have a match between Uber Drac and Uber Marvel.

That would so rule and Dracula would win cause-

(I'd think it best if I just cut myself off there . . .) :p

[GoldenAge]

BTW: Only Captain Marvel has any real knowledge of the battleground -- The JSA Sky Rise.

This gives him an imediate advantage!

[Maniac_nmt]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Maniac, understanding which universe we're in could become an issue. Some may argue that Scarlet Witch is more powerful in a DC universe and that the Flash is weaker in a Marvel Universe.

I'm of the opinion that we take each character at their absolute best and disregard the "universe" question... But it's your thread and, in the name of heading off bad arguments, you might want to make a statement to clear things up. ;)

Well, the general idea should be that they play and deal things out as they would on home turf. Not that they obey the laws of each universe.

After all, in the Marvel U, if Superman hoisted an oil tanker, it'd probably break over his head. So consider each to be operating as shown in their own companies mag.

If Scarlet Witch could tap into the DCU's 'Chaos' Magic, I'm not sure anyone here could handle her (since it now appears there is no 'chaos' magic in the marvel u, and so everything Wanda did was in and of herself forcing a kind of 'chaos' magic on the marvel u).

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
And when have we seen Wanda do any spell casting akin to that? Seriously, she may have _said_ she was working on her magical powers but we never actually saw her do anything with it. Soon as she got into action in Avengers - even right before Disassembled - it was right back to standard hex bolts. I think the gal's all talk. :)

Silly boy (you're a boy right?)

Wanda was doing scrying spells back in the Vision/Scarlet Witch minis of the 80s. Heck, she even reached from the Moon to Earth (IIRC).

Honestly, I think half of what she does is spells and the other mutant hex bolts. I believe she's always tempered her hex ability with spells for fear of it becoming too dangerous... Kinda like adding a little Coke to your Jack. (ifyouknowwhatImean);)

Don't sell her short, she's often considered the most powerful Avenger!:classic:

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
One of these days we got to have a match between Uber Drac and Uber Marvel.

That would so rule and Dracula would win cause-

(I'd think it best if I just cut myself off there . . .) :p

Kind-of funny you said that as I was just thinking the _exact_ same thing (go check out a certain new thread :) )

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by GoldenAge


Wanda was doing scrying spells back in the Vision/Scarlet Witch minis of the 80s. Heck, she even reached from the Moon to Earth (IIRC).


She did use scrying then but those weren't "easy to cast" spells for her. They were rituals requiring certain materials, including a scrying medium. Not something she just uses off the top of her head...and certainly not something she can easily put together in 45 minutes of "limbo prep"

[WakandaMan]

Seems to me others have it pegged pretty good. Wanda is the weak link, and will be taken out fast. Marv will put up a good show, but I don't think he can defeat both Warbird and Atom.

My vote: Captain Atom and Warbird!

[michiganj24]

Ach as always two of my faves are matched up early. well as said before if they can take out Wanda quick and then double team the BIg Cheese they win. I think they can.
Warbird and Atom

[GoldenAge]

How is Wanda suddenly getting punched out? She's got 45 minutes to prepare!!! Marvel has the Speed of Mercury - just short of THE FLASH!!!

How in Hades can Atom or Warbird stand up to hex bolts that can change probabilities? How in Hades can Atom or Warbird stand up to the Power of Shazam???

They can't.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
She did use scrying then but those weren't "easy to cast" spells for her. They were rituals requiring certain materials, including a scrying medium. Not something she just uses off the top of her head...and certainly not something she can easily put together in 45 minutes of "limbo prep"

Um yah, that was back in the 80s! We all know she's become a much greater adept since then. ;)

Even Agatha Harkness has said she can teach Wanda no more... Wanda has surpassed her mentor.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Um yah, that was back in the 80s! We all know she's become a much greater adept since then. ;)

Even Agatha Harkness has said she can teach Wanda no more... Wanda has surpassed her mentor.

Or Wanda's mentality is such that Harkness can't or won't teach her. We have no idea what Wanda can do now because it _hasn't been shown_.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Kind-of funny you said that as I was just thinking the _exact_ same thing (go check out a certain new thread :) )

I may be a fanatic, for sure. But I always back up my opinions with direct comic book references (see above). No suppositions. Just the facts... and alotta love for the Big Red Cheese!!! ;)

If ever there was a great hero that needed his own hero - It's Captain Marvel: the Rodney Dangerfield of super heroes.

I'm that guy. :grin:

Besides, I just don't get these new-fangled heroes like Bishop, Supreme or Wolverine.

What's that you say? Those guys are old now too??? Holy Moley! I need to retire!!!:cheeky:

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Or Wanda's mentality is such that Harkness can't or won't teach her.

Are you suggesting that Wanda's becoming too dangerous???:cheeky:

Hmmm, I can work with that.;)

[techdog]

I would bet that Captain Marvel would win this match on his own. I know that Atom and Warbird are military trained and very powerful, but I think that if Wanda can help take one out, and I think her hex powers will last that long, then CM can take the other one by himself. Captain is really in the top 1% of power in the DC universe, and in a universe of Icons such as that, that is saying something. I think CM and Witchy move on.

[Rando]

I vote for Atom and Bird.

I'm of the opinion that Warbird consistently pulls more weight than Witch. Scarlet Witch has occasionaly been shown to produce deus ex machina effects, but in general she is only fairly effective and requires someone to badysit her in order to keep her concentration from being disrupted. I don't think Marvel can hold both of these people down at once and either Atom or Warbird are significantly more dangerous than the stuff that often manages to get to Wanda and take her out of fights. Furthermore I think Warbird's experience with Witch will be more useful than the reverse, haveing a long working history with Wanda should give her some of what to expect from Witch's unpredicatable abilities which seems more valuable than the knowledge of Warbird's powers and personality.

[deadalus13]

"Furthermore I think Warbird's experience with Witch will be more useful than the reverse, haveing a long working history with Wanda should give her some of what to expect from Witch's unpredicatable abilities which seems more valuable than the knowledge of Warbird's powers and personality."

I see the opposite. Wanda will have no problem explaining exactly what Warbird can and can't do, while the unpredictable nature of Wanda's power makes it very difficult for Warbird and Atom to plan for it. I think all Atom will get out of it will be that they must focus on taking out Wanda quickly.
I believe Marvel can take out Warbird in very little time. Moving with hypersonic speed, he can land one massive hit and knock her out. Even with her danger sense, he will hit her. It is one thing knowing that danger is coming, and a completely different thing being fast enough to avoid it. Once she is gone, Marvel will take on Atom and win.

My vote: Marvel and Scarlet Witch

[Q99]

One problem with Atom is he starts out a bit behind the other class-A Superheavyweights (like Marvel and Superman) and charges up as the fight goes on.


He's shown a definite problem with Superspeedster bricks like Marvel before, most notably when Mary Marvel rushed him and pounded him badly when she was mind-controlled in Formerly Known as the Justice League. Atom wasn't fully prepared, but he's still not as fast as a Marvel. If Wanda throws so much as one hex messing Atom up at the same time, Captain Marvel can KO Atom fairly fast, and even if Warbird takes advantage of that distraction to take out Wanda, then it's her Vs. Marvel.


My vote: Captain Marvel. Atom, while a good tactician, isn't too clever of a combatant, and at the beginning of the fight Marvel is definitely stronger and faster. With a Hex to give Billy a wide opening, it should be a solid win for the power of Shazam.

[SyxxPac]

I'm voting Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch. Don't it would be close.

[Maniac_nmt]

Current Voting Totals:

Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch - 8
Captain Atom and Warbird - 6

[SpakSpang]

With Prep time I would side with the Wisdom of Solomon and Captain Marvel for battle.

I actually don't see Captain Atom going for Scarlett Witch first, because he KNOWS how dangerous Captain Marvel is. And basically is Marvel gets close enough to either Atom or Warbird then its over.

I will vote for Captain Marvel's team.

[DTM]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Maniac, understanding which universe we're in could become an issue. Some may argue that Scarlet Witch is more powerful in a DC universe and that the Flash is weaker in a Marvel Universe.

I'm of the opinion that we take each character at their absolute best and disregard the "universe" question... But it's your thread and, in the name of heading off bad arguments, you might want to make a statement to clear things up. ;)

Why not make it simple and say theyre fighting in a "neutral or shared universe", in which characters have the same powers and abilities they would have in their own reality. Who needs to factor in Flashs decreased powers in the Marvel universe or Scarlet Witches power boost in the DC one.

[DTM]

Im going with Captain Atom and Warbird.

I feel their shared military experiences will allow for a better prep session, and as many have pointed out already, Wanda (though having great power) is too easily hurt to last that long here with these giants. CM would surely beat CA, but WB would handle SW faster and easier and I think, though it would be CLOSE, both CA and WB will topple Marvel in the end.

Two questions, forgive me if theyve been discussed already:

Are there are, normal, people in these battle environments?

During the prep session, do the teams know who theyre fighting?

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I say Atom and Warbird. I had the same thought Rokk did-- both ex-Military, and very tactical.

[SumYungGai]

Originally posted by techdog
Captain is really in the top 1% of power in the DC universe, and in a universe of Icons such as that, that is saying something.
I know you meant Captain Marvel, but the same can be said of Captain Atom. While it is oft remarked that Captain Marvel is the world's mightiest mortal, Captain Atom has been called the single most powerful human on Earth.

That said, I am throwing my vote for Captain Atom and Warbird. If CM had a physically hardier opponent it would go the other way. All Atom and Warbird have to do is bring the building down to bury Wanda in rubble. They won't even need to be in the same room to do it. Once Marvel is partnerless, Atom and Warbird together will be able to take him out.

[GoldenAge]

I'm still having trouble understanding how Captain Atom's and Warbird's old military training would allow them to beat Captain Marvel... let alone Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch.

I would think that the training that Warbird received under Captain America would MORE than trump the standard book learning she would have received in the military. And time and time again Captain Atom displays that the only thing he learned in the military was how to take orders.

Captain Marvel can move fast enough to make these two look like their standing still. And he's on his home turf (JSA headquarters). Marvel's also as studied in military strategy as either (see my proof above). Add to that the council of Solomon for 45 minutes and I believe it's impossible for Atom and Warbird to out-think him.

Now add Scarlet Witch to the formula. She's been beside the Avengers against their most ferocious villains. Sure she may get knocked around a bit, but more times than not her probability manipulation renders most attacks avoidable... if not, she'd be dead a long time ago.

Wanda's power is awesome! The greater the odds, the more powerful she is. She's brought down at least 2 mountains that I know of (the top of Wundegore and the seaside cliffs near the West Coast mansion).

Even Thor is wary of her power! When momentarily possessed by the Gem Entity (Dr. Spectrum) Thor attacked Wanda first for fear of her power (the gem agreed). If Wanda had the 45 minutes to get ready and Captain marvel to protect her she probably would have felled the Storm God. In this scenario she DOES have 45 minutes and Captain Marvel.

There's no way Atom and Warbird can stop Wanda from getting off at least a few eldritch hexes. Captain Marvel has made a career out of protecting damsels in distress. Its assured that he’ll keep her in the game at least for the time it takes to crack Captain Atom's shell.

[GoldenAge]

Let's not forget that very recently (but before disassembled) Wanda took down the entire Wrecking Crew... She took them out with as little as a wave of her hand! Priceless!!! :grin:

[GAMURAI]

I can see cap atom dropping wanda almost instantaneously. Splat goes wanda. That leaves atom and warbird vs marvel. I think that this could go either way but i'll vote for the two heroes over the one. My vote. Cpt Atom and Warbird

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by GAMURAI
I can see cap atom dropping Wanda almost instantaneously. Splat goes Wanda. That leaves atom and Warbird vs marvel. I think that this could go either way but i'll vote for the two heroes over the one. My vote. Cpt Atom and Warbird

How is this possible?

Maniac., do they start 10 meters away from each other?

The JSA Sky Rise is huge. At the beginning of the fight they could be separated by a mile of corridors, hallways and reinforced doors. This is no shack they’re fighting in. Sure, both Warbird and Captain Atom could blast their way to Wanda floor by floor, but by the time they reached her she'd obviously be ready with a hex that would turn Captain Atom inside out (or at least render him occupied for a while). Not to mention that when they reach her she'll have had 45 minutes to...

1. Perform ritual magic to obscure her presence or at least keep tabs on Atom and Warbird
2. Utilize Marvel's knowledge of the JSA Tower to find a defensible position from where she could work her magic
3. Get information form the Wisdom of Solomon on how to proceed. The council of the gods most certainly trump ALL the military training that CA and WB have.

These arguments that are similar to "Oh, when this fight starts Wanda is toast" are absolute sophistry.

[Q99]

And assuming they were just walking down a hall and ran into each other, and Atom blasted Wanda, Marvel would take the hit for her and give her time to get a hex off.

Heck, if they're focusing on Wanda, then they aren't focusing on Marvel, and without their guards up against him either of the other two will be taken out in no time. Speed of mercury and all.

[Rando]

The claims that Wanda is gonna be blowing away Atom, or even Warbird really, with or without prep. time seem pretty far fetched to me. In the Nefaria Protocols Wanda, plus the Avengers, plus the Thunderbolts had something like a day to throw stuff together to beat Wonderman, Atlas, and Count Nefaria. How much ritual mess did Wanda do to scry them out, or work out a way to free her lover from Nefaria's control, or conjure some hex to foul up Nefaria's ionic powers (powers that Wanda is intimatly familair with): none. Kang hovered around Earth for an enourmous amount of time before mounting his assault in the Kang Dynasty, where was Wanda's crystal ball and magical whammy then. Wanda's hex powers are just a writers ace in the hole for when they need to work their way out of a corner or have a dus ex machina solution, she cannot be called upon to habitually tangle with either of these characters with or without preperation. Instances when she does are like when Jean Grey goes berserk with the Phoenix Force:not generally representative of the character.

Both charatcers don't need to be focusing on Wanda either Warbird would be plenty. Atom can battle Captain Marvel just fine (and don't hand me that Mary Marvel b.s. either, the writer of that book has flat out said he isn't concerned with continuity) until Warbird finishes with Wanda. Marvel's wisdom of solomon is probably the biggest farce in comics, it never does anything. I can literaly not think of a single time when it has generated a succesful course of action, people talk about it like it's something, but it doesn't do anything. Seriously I could have told Captain Marvel that he shouldn't be palling around with Stargirl while he's Captain Marvel right in front of the JSA because they would think he is some kind of creeper, but didn't the vaunted wisdom of soloman tell him to keep that on the q.t., heck no.

[DTM]

Marvel's wisdom of solomon is probably the biggest farce in comics, it never does anything. I can literaly not think of a single time when it has generated a succesful course of action, people talk about it like it's something, but it doesn't do anything. Seriously I could have told Captain Marvel that he shouldn't be palling around with Stargirl while he's Captain Marvel right in front of the JSA because they would think he is some kind of creeper, but didn't the vaunted wisdom of soloman tell him to keep that on the q.t., heck no.


.....I am now your biggest fan. :)

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Rando
Marvel's wisdom of solomon is probably the biggest farce in comics, it never does anything.

Not true. For example: In Virtue and Vice it was the single element that led to the defeat of Johnny Sorrow and Despero. Without it both the JSA and JLA, complete with their most powerful characters, would have been lost.

[Rando]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
Not true. For example: In Virtue and Vice it was the single element that led to the defeat of Johnny Sorrow and Despero. Without it both the JSA and JLA, complete with their most powerful characters, would have been lost.

Do what? Dr.Midnight freed Batman, and Batman came up with the plan to exorcise the 7 sins. Mr.Terrific came up with the plan to use Sorrow against Despero. All Captain Marvel did was get put in a hurt locker.

[Maniac_nmt]

It did, however, allow him to beat the Ultra-humanite after said villian had taken over 98% of the worlds heros. It also gave the JSA the break they needed to defeat Obsidian the second time.

[supermangl1]

I have to go with Capt. Marvel and Wanda. Warbird and Atom are a decent team, but I don't think Capt. Atom is packing enough power to take him down. One super fast attack on Warbird and she's going to be hurting.

If Atom focuses on Wanda, he's going down too. Marvel is the major threat, but Wanda can hurt you too. So I can't see how Warbird and Atom can win. Marvel's speed and strength will be hard to counter.

winners = Capt. Marvel and Scarlet Witch

[DeonBeast]

Captain Marvel alone is a beast. Wanda is unpredictable and holds one shot ko's in abundance. Together I don't see Captain Atom and Warbird making it to the next round.

That and Scarlet Witch does have access to chaos magic shields which she has used to repel and deflect attacks. She isn't the one shot splat that she is made out to be here.

Neither of these characters should be ignored for any period of time. Together they have too much juice for Captain Atom and Warbird to handle.

I vote for Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch.

[Rokk_Krinn]

Originally posted by GoldenAge
These arguments that are similar to "Oh, when this fight starts Wanda is toast" are absolute sophistry.

Sophistry? Real mature way to critique other people's arguements, GA. Once again you start popping off because people disagree with you and end up wondering why you come across as fanatical that even a two-year old will start to look askew at your arguements.

Nontheless, being you're obviously so much more erudite than the rest of us, I hope you'll allow us monkeys in the trees to at least put forth a few disagreements as to one of your stature, it's probably no different than hearing a kindergartener tease you, right?

1. The Fight Between Mary and Captain Atom: Lesse, not only was Mary pumped up into a killing rage - something Marvel does _not_ have going for him (which means, by the way, less adrenaline which means less strength - after all, Mary and Billy are equal in strength according to the "Power of Shazam!" series - for the relatively "calm" CM) - but the fight was being adjusted by Roulette. If you'll remember she puts "power dampners" on the combatants and is not adverse to changing them based upon the "house odds". Stating that this fight is a great example is like saying that WWF is legit wrestling.

2. While you've been moderately good this thread, frequently your pro-CM arguements take into accounts stories that are pre-Crisis, as in "out of continuity" as in "not canon". You may not like how CM was relatively _weak_ in the "Power of Shazam!" series, but that's what DC considers the "current canon" of Marvel. In "Power of Shazam!", CM was not only frequently slapped around but his much vaunted Wisdom of Solomon was usually ignored or pointless. It's actually specifically pointed out that Billy tends to ignore it.

3. Speaking of CM's strength levels, am I the only one that remembers how easily CM was man-handled by the giant in "Legends"? I don't mean Brimstone - the tall gold guy that Billy gets suckered into "killing". It doesn't take as much strength as people think to give Marvel a good tussle apparently.

4. Wisdom of Solomon - well, Rando's already made some good points on it, but here's one specific to this fight: wouldn't the overly-vaunted Wisdom tell Billy that rupturing Atom's skin is a _bad_ thing. You see, when Atom ruptures, he has a tendency to blow up decent-sized Midwestern states. It's part of the reason why everyone was so darned fast to get Atom medical attention when he was holding his skin together by pure force of will. The JSA HQ is not in an unpopulated area (and being people have said "Billy can hide in the crowd", I'm guessing there are even innocent by-standers here). So, no, Wanda is not hex-bolting Atom's skin into rupturing from one punch. Not unless Wisdom of Solomon allows Marvel to blow NYC sky-high.

5. Wanda is fragile. Sorry, she may pack a lot of punch with her hex bolts - though it's been stated time and again that she doesn't have that much control over their effects - but she's still a non-superhumanly-resilient person. I saw the arguement she can make "chaos shields" - do we really need to compare the number of times she's protected herself vs. the number of times she's gone down from one punch? Her stamina puts her up there with Guy Gardner half the time. A near-miss (oops - did the hex bolts redirect that bolt so it missed but was still near-by?) from Warbird's or Atom's bolts have enough blast radius to take down Wanda.

Mind you these arguements are from the apparent mental equivalent of a caveman, so take them in stride. I'll now let GA go back to insulting those of us who disagree with him.

[Maniac_nmt]

Current total

Captain Marvel/Scarlet Witch - 11
Captain Atom/Warbird - 10

[Q99]

5. Wanda is fragile.

However, Wanda does have one major thing going for her- Captain Marvel is blocking for her, and with the Speed of Mercury he's really good at it.


So, no, Wanda is not hex-bolting Atom's skin into rupturing from one punch. Not unless Wisdom of Solomon allows Marvel to blow NYC sky-high.


She could, however, Hex-bolt him to turn back to human or loss offensive control over his powers and allow Marvel to KO him safely with one punch.

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Sophistry? Real mature way to critique other people's arguements, GA. Once again you start popping off because people disagree with you and end up wondering why you come across as fanatical that even a two-year old will start to look askew at your arguements.
I'm sorry that you (or anyone else) took it that way, it was not meant to offend (unlike your direct comments towards me).
Sophism: a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone. - This is how I was feeling the arguments were being used so I rushed to utilize a word that offended you. Sorry.

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Nontheless, being you're obviously so much more erudite than the rest of us, I hope you'll allow us monkeys in the trees to at least put forth a few disagreements as to one of your stature, it's probably no different than hearing a kindergartener tease you, right?
In fact I've always found you to be honest and quite knowledgeable and have said as much in the past, though the disdain you feel for me often seems to be iniquitously transferred to the subjects of our conversations.

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
2. While you've been moderately good this thread, frequently your pro-CM arguements take into accounts stories that are pre-Crisis, as in "out of continuity" as in "not canon". You may not like how CM was relatively _weak_ in the "Power of Shazam!" series, but that's what DC considers the "current canon" of Marvel. In "Power of Shazam!", CM was not only frequently slapped around but his much vaunted Wisdom of Solomon was usually ignored or pointless. It's actually specifically pointed out that Billy tends to ignore it.
Speaking of CM's strength levels, am I the only one that remembers how easily CM was man-handled by the giant in "Legends"? I don't mean Brimstone - the tall gold guy that Billy gets suckered into "killing". It doesn't take as much strength as people think to give Marvel a good tussle apparently.
If we are specifically talking Post Crisis then I must point out that Legends was Captain Marvel's very first adventure. A few things could be assumed...
1. That Billy has yet to ascertain the full extent of his powers... (though I doubt this is the case)
2. (More importantly) The individual known as Macro Man (IIRC) may actually have had enough strength to hold Captain Marvel, Superman and Wonder Woman all at the same time. His brief existence robs us of any perspective to the contrary.

If you want to understand just how powerful Captain Marvel is Post Crisis perhaps you should read more publications containing Captain Marvel appearances? Try this snippet:

Action Comics #768 - Captain Marvel shows a power we didn’t know about when he merges with Superman. Though it’s in print I personally discount this one-off power, which is why I’ve never brought it up in these forums. (Note: The thought boxes in Blue are Superman) –
http://flarenova.com/shazam/temp/act768_1.jpg
http://flarenova.com/shazam/temp/act768_2.jpg

Or how about DC’s take on the power of Captain Marvel? The DC Encyclopedia clearly states that Captain Marvel & Superman are on par in terms of strength & power levels.

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
4. Wisdom of Solomon - well, Rando's already made some good points on it, but here's one specific to this fight: wouldn't the overly-vaunted Wisdom tell Billy that rupturing Atom's skin is a _bad_ thing. You see, when Atom ruptures, he has a tendency to blow up decent-sized Midwestern states. It's part of the reason why everyone was so darned fast to get Atom medical attention when he was holding his skin together by pure force of will. The JSA HQ is not in an unpopulated area (and being people have said "Billy can hide in the crowd", I'm guessing there are even innocent by-standers here). So, no, Wanda is not hex-bolting Atom's skin into rupturing from one punch. Not unless Wisdom of Solomon allows Marvel to blow NYC sky-high.
You are quite right that Marvel would denounce such a maneuver by the Scarlet Witch... If he knew that was her plan. But that is just one of a hundred options for Wanda. Instead, lets consider the odds of Captain Atom being cured and returned to normal (something he's wished for in the past). Or perhaps he just thinks that he has a crack and rushes to space to protect innocent lives (effectively removing him from the combat arena and disqualifying him from the match. Or why bother with Captain Atom when Wanda could take out Warbird by simply blinding her, or eliminating her strength, or... who's to say what she'll do, its Chaos Magic for goodness sake.

The point remains that Wanda will have at least 1 if not more opportunities to get off a hex. By doing so I believe she'll sway the odds heavily in the favor of her team.

Now let's get a bit more familiar with The Wisdom of Solomon as it exists as a combination of several mental aspects combined into one neat power package dubbed 'Wisdom'.

The Wisdom of Solomon

1) Clarity of Thought: When the Wisdom is activated, Billy is able to think calmly and clearly. With the 'mental fog' most people have (various anxieties, prejudices, etc.) gone, Billy is able to come to effective solutions quicker and pick out the 'best' alternative with a clear mind and conscience. This clear thinking makes Billy a good tactician and problem solver, and has the side-effect of making him more in touch with his 'true' personality, as when the Wisdom is activated, he cannot rationalize cheating, since he knows its wrong and was basically fooling himself. When the wisdom is activated, Billy is able to basically take a deep breath and think things through before he does something he'd feel bad for later.

2) Information Bank: The Wisdom also seems to be a repository for various mystical knowledge, knowledge that Billy has perhaps increased on his own thanks to reading in his spare time. Whether it's military tactics, knowledge of demon banishing, knowledge of an ancient, runic language, knowledge of architecture, or what have you, the Wisdom seems to be a nearly limitless database of information.

3) True-Sight: The Wisdom sometimes lets Billy know what's real and what isn't, as well as allowing him to see the true nature of things and see things others cannot. For instance, he was able to see demon that only Dudley (who had accidentally summoned the creature) could see. He was also able to realize that the image of his parents in Hell was an illusion, as well as being able to see through various mystic illusions, such the hiding enchantment Shazam had placed over the subway tunnel that leads to the Rock of Eternity.

4) Quick Learning: Billy seems to pick up things quicker when he's Cap. He was able to flawlessly reproduce combat moves he saw Batman of all people demonstrated after one viewing, has been able to pick up the finer points of ancient tactics, can understand different languages quickly and can seem to understand how to use mystic items institutively.

It's unclear how much 'technical' knowledge the Wisdom grants Billy, and how much of it is knowledge he acquired through research. He has been shown to understand Mother Box technology, has created an outer-space rig using designs he came up with, and has been shown to have a bit of knowledge regarding architecture.


Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
5. Wanda is fragile. Sorry, she may pack a lot of punch with her hex bolts - though it's been stated time and again that she doesn't have that much control over their effects - but she's still a non-superhumanly-resilient person. I saw the arguement she can make "chaos shields" - do we really need to compare the number of times she's protected herself vs. the number of times she's gone down from one punch? Her stamina puts her up there with Guy Gardner half the time. A near-miss (oops - did the hex bolts redirect that bolt so it missed but was still near-by?) from Warbird's or Atom's bolts have enough blast radius to take down Wanda.
Chaos Shields??? Hmmm, I don't believe I've ever stated that (though she has used her magical powerd to divert incomming attacks like Captain America's shield). I simply contend that she'll be able to get off at least 1 or 2 hex blasts before she's taken out. With Captain Marvel protecting her this ia assured. I continue by suggesting that even one probability manipulation by Wanda could make ALL the difference.

Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
Mind you these arguements are from the apparent mental equivalent of a caveman, so take them in stride. I'll now let GA go back to insulting those of us who disagree with him.
Thanks. ;)

[GoldenAge]

Originally posted by Rando
Do what? Dr.Midnight freed Batman, and Batman came up with the plan to exorcise the 7 sins. Mr.Terrific came up with the plan to use Sorrow against Despero. All Captain Marvel did was get put in a hurt locker.

C'mon Rando, we both know what really happened:

Batman was freed by Nid-Nite and imediatly told him "Captain Marvel is the key... Free him and you'll free the rest."

Sure, Batman is VERY astute, but that was the extent of his participation. From there Green Arrow used Wonder Woman's Golden Lasso to force Marvel to say SHAZAM, thus freeing him from the sway of Sin of Gluttony. Marvel's transformation allowed the wizard Shazam to regain his power and recapture the Seven Deadly Sins.

Batman had the answer to free his comrades, but it was hardly a plan. It's not like he told GA to use the Lasso of Truth, he came up with that on his own. And Batman certainly didn't tell Shazam what to do.;)

Your conclusion that Mr. Terrific came up with the plan to use Sorrow against Despero confuses me. It was obviously Captain Marvel's idea, inspired by the Wisdom of Solomon:

Wonder Woman: "Your guess was right, Marvel. Sorrow's gaze exorcized Despero from Luthor."
Captain Marvel: "I don't guess, Wonder Woman. That was the Wisdom of Solomon talking."

:)

[Rando]

Your right Batman didn't tell Green Arrow what to do, or Shazam, neither of their actions had anything to do with the wisdom of Soloman either.

On page 85 after Sorrow had bowled over half the two teams you see Batman and Mr.Terrific helping Kyle and Alan up.

Batman:"I like the way you think Terrific."
T:"Likewise Batman, Green Lantern, can you hear me?"
Kyle:"Whu--?"
B:"We have an idea."

at the bottom of the page the lanterns take out Sorrow, so I guess it was a joint effort from Batman and Mr.Terrific that was responsible for that. I dunno what Wonder Woman is going on about, I suppose Marvel could have come up with the idea to use Sorrow on Despero, or at least okayed it as non-lethal (I wonder where Despero is now), although I dunno when he communicated this information to the lanterns (you only see Marvel once in the intervening times in the backgroung hanging out with Shazam), and Terrific and Batman just came up with the idea to jump Sorrow while his mask was off.

[GoldenAge]

Upon review the entire thing is a bit amorphous... But I assumed that it was Batman and Mr. T that came up with the idea on how to capture Sorrow... Then, (using Wonder Woman's comment as the only planning reference to the attack on Despero) I deduced that it was Marvel and the Wisdom of Solomon that assured Despero's defeat. Without the Wisdom of Solomon there would have been no way for the combined brain trust of Batman and Mr. Terrific to know what would happen.

So, after this long segue, and adding Maniac's examples to my the fray, it is obvious (to me at least) that the Wisdom of Solomon is, in fact, utilized and far from a "farce".
;)

[Shango]

Captain Marvel alone takes this one. If he's partnered with the Scarlet Witch, then the win is even more easy for his team.

Captain Marvel is equal to Superman in strength, speed and invulnerability. We saw how easily Supes man-handled Warbird in JLA/Avengers, and Mary Marvel made very short work of Capt. Atom in JL: Classified. She practically obliterated him.

Captain Marvel outclasses Capt. Atom and Warbird, and the Witch is just the added "bonus" to ensure the match goes their way.