View Full Version : 616 vs Ultimate confrontation 4
Rules : no prep time, they are put in a 5 miles radius arena, ressembling a placethat is familiar to both of them. Like any other VS thread, it's 10 second incapacitate, ko or kill for the win.
Match 1 : 616 Spiderman vs Ult Spiderman winner : 616 Spidey
Match 2 : 616 Colossus vs Ult Colossus still running: leading is Ult Colossus
Match 3 : 616 Magneto vs Ult Magneto : still running
Match 4 : 616 Cap America vs Ult Cap America
battlefield : WW2 german military camp.
SumYungGai
04/19/2005, 10:41
I vote for 616 Cap. Ult Cap is cool, but he doesn't have the experience, nor the level head that 616 Cap uses to win his battles.
rowesbud
04/19/2005, 10:43
Ultimate Captain America gets my vote. He took out the Ultimate Hulk... at least knowcked him unconscious. That's some nevah fahgive action, right 'dere. Don't ever remember 616 Cap dishing out that much business.
Personnally I see Ult Cap like 616 Cap, but with Batman's willigness to give some low blows. So in the end I see Ult Cap surprising 616 Cap with a kick in the family jewels and then knocking him out.
My vote : Ult Cap
Maniac_nmt
04/19/2005, 13:50
Captain America (616) has this in the bag.
Ultimate Steve doesn't have the experience, will, or drive to best regular Steve (who is possibly the finest overall combatant in either Marvel, Ultimate, or DC).
Ultimate Cap isn't bringing anything our Steve hasn't seen plenty of before.
Physcially Ultimate Steve is superior, but mentally he hasn't gotten enough under his belt yet. He may have kicked Hulk in the knackers, but our Steve has beaten an all powerful Red Skull multiple times, beat Nightmare on his home turf, and ultimately defeated an all powerful Korvac.
I like Ultimate Cap (he's actually why I read the Ultimates), but he's just not up to 616 Steve's playing field yet.
Goblin_Avenger
04/19/2005, 14:05
I gotta go with Ultimate Cap- both are good but if you read Ultimates you find out pretty quick that Ult Cap plays for keeps and fights dirty (and not just against the hulk- see Ult Nightmare). 616 Cap might have the upper hand, but Ultimate Cap is gonna land the killing blow.
SpakSpang
04/19/2005, 14:17
These battles don't really seem fair.
Ultimate series is a new series that is retelling origin stories and such. So the history isn't there.
So sure Ultimate Spiderman can't beat 616 Spiderman with all his experience...but maybe if you took 616 Spiderman when he was about the same experience level as Ult Spiderman and you have a fair battle.
Same can be said about almost all of these battles.
I will vote for Ultimate Captain America. Why? I will take experience out and look at the powers of the character. Ultimate Captain America seemed to get a huge power boost in the new universe. He can survive jumping from an airplane, he INC. the Hulk for a moment. He is a great fighter and strategist.
I know so is 616...but Ult. just gets my vote.
Maniac_nmt
04/19/2005, 17:06
Originally posted by Goblin_Avenger
I gotta go with Ultimate Cap- both are good but if you read Ultimates you find out pretty quick that Ult Cap plays for keeps and fights dirty (and not just against the hulk- see Ult Nightmare). 616 Cap might have the upper hand, but Ultimate Cap is gonna land the killing blow.
If you read a Captain America comic, you'll see pretty much every body he fights, fight's dirty, and fights 'for keeps'.
Red Skull, Baron Zemo, Hydra, AIM, Serpent Society, Crossbones, Nazis, etc.......
Saying Ultimate Cap'd win because he fights dirty is pretty silly. Basically everyone 616 Steve fights, fights that way (shoot, he's bested Wolverine in the past, and no one can accuse Logan of fighting clean).
Ssolid_Snake
04/19/2005, 17:16
i say ult cap has got this easy, i mean ult cap is stronger, and i think he's smarter too, or at least uses common sense he wears a friggin helmet where as 616 cap wears what to protect his head uh...spandex? besides that ult cap will do whatever it takes to win so i think he's got 616 cap boned so to speak
A while back in another argument, someone said Ultimate
Cap is more like John Walker's Cap than Steve's.
616 Cap's got this in the bag.
And he wears scale or chainmail...depending on the artist.
Not Spandex.
Ssolid_Snake
04/19/2005, 22:50
that's still not stopping a bullet to his head...
Goblin_Avenger
04/19/2005, 22:58
Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
If you read a Captain America comic, you'll see pretty much every body he fights, fight's dirty, and fights 'for keeps'.
Red Skull, Baron Zemo, Hydra, AIM, Serpent Society, Crossbones, Nazis, etc.......
Saying Ultimate Cap'd win because he fights dirty is pretty silly. Basically everyone 616 Steve fights, fights that way (shoot, he's bested Wolverine in the past, and no one can accuse Logan of fighting clean).
I'll admit right now that 616 Cap is the better figher- but how is he going to end the fight? 616 Cap can't just puch out a guy that fought toe to toe with the hulk (and not all flighty like 616 cap would fight, he was right in there taking hits from the Hulk!). Ult Cap has no qualms with stabbing or shooting a guy to resolve a fight, and his greater physique keeps him from being pinned or else wised incappacitated for 10 seconds. I really don't think 616 Cap has what it takes to keep Ult Cap down.
Rokk_Krinn
04/20/2005, 12:54
Originally posted by Ssolid_Snake
that's still not stopping a bullet to his head...
Most likely neither is whatever helmet Ult. Cap is wearing. Besides, isn't the whole point of the shield to stop the bullets before they reach the head? :)
All things considered, Ultimate Cap's superhuman physique is a detriment to him in this fight. He's used to having that raw power, whereas 616 Cap has fought the worst villains in the universe by just being the best human out there. 616 Cap knows how to use a person's superhuman strength against him, whereas Ultimate Cap really hasn't been tested against a "peak performance" individual (yeah, he fought Ultimate Wolverine but he used firearms - something that is not going to suckerpunch 616 Captain America). On top of that, when normal Captain America sees how "jackbooted" his counterpart is, that's usually enough of a psych-advantage to push 616 over the edge. :)
Vote: The Original Deal
Rokk_Krinn
04/20/2005, 12:58
Originally posted by Goblin_Avenger
I'll admit right now that 616 Cap is the better figher- but how is he going to end the fight? 616 Cap can't just puch out a guy that fought toe to toe with the hulk (and not all flighty like 616 cap would fight, he was right in there taking hits from the Hulk!). Ult Cap has no qualms with stabbing or shooting a guy to resolve a fight, and his greater physique keeps him from being pinned or else wised incappacitated for 10 seconds. I really don't think 616 Cap has what it takes to keep Ult Cap down.
616 Captain America has put down - in physical combat - opponents far physically superior to Ultimate Captain America. Heck, he's even done it without his shield (such as when he was so fed up with Mr. Hyde - who we may joke about but is a real powerhouse - that Cap put down his shield and proceeded to take Hyde apart, bit by bit). If he can drop some of the powerhouses we've seen him fight in the pages of Avengers - such as dropping Ultron's minions (again, most likely more durable than Ult. Cap) - than there's no reason to believe he won't be able to do the same here. People have this goody-goody image of 616 Captain America and while he's certainly not as "grim and gritty" as a lot of characters, he's not a shmuck in how he fights. If he has to go for vulnerable spots - like the eyes, throat, etc. - he does it (and has many times).
I vote for 616 Cap.
When Ultimate Cap has got a cosmic cube under his belt gimmie a call.
chase_jyd
04/20/2005, 13:10
So Ult Cap - incredibly experienced fighter, willing to take some cheap shots and fight down & dirty. Tactically gifted. Plus super strength and durability at a low to moderate level, and trained by some of the best.
Hmm, sounds like U.S. Agent, or on par. Whom 616 Cap has beaten through superior experience and being used to fighting a higher class of enemies.
My vote goes with 616 Captain America.
Originally posted by Ssolid_Snake
that's still not stopping a bullet to his head...
Well, unlike the Ultimate Cap, 616 actually uses his shield
effectively. Ultimate Cap using his shield in combat is more
the exception than the rule.
ActRaiser
04/20/2005, 21:33
Ult. Cap.
Though 616 has the edge in experience, Ult. has already displayed some pretty impressive tactical feats in his short carrier. Ult. Cap, however, is clearly considerably stronger. Most impressive to me so far is that Hulk was pounding on him, and he was still standing. No way could 616 withstand similar abuse.
Originally posted by ActRaiser
Ult. Cap.
Though 616 has the edge in experience, Ult. has already displayed some pretty impressive tactical feats in his short carrier. Ult. Cap, however, is clearly considerably stronger. Most impressive to me so far is that Hulk was pounding on him, and he was still standing. No way could 616 withstand similar abuse.
He wouldn't need to...like I said...he knows how to use the shield.
Maniac_nmt
04/20/2005, 22:33
Originally posted by ActRaiser
Ult. Cap.
Though 616 has the edge in experience, Ult. has already displayed some pretty impressive tactical feats in his short carrier. Ult. Cap, however, is clearly considerably stronger. Most impressive to me so far is that Hulk was pounding on him, and he was still standing. No way could 616 withstand similar abuse.
Uh, actually yes way, 616 has withstood Thor's most powerful attack with his shield, deflected blasts from the cosmic cube, had his shield used by the Silver Surfer to block Glactus' most powerful blasts, withstood Klaw absorbing all the vibrational energy from the world's exploding Vibranium supply, and unleashing what may be the single biggest shot Klaw has ever unleashed, fought off the entire Avengers for roughly a minute days after being defrosted. 616 Cap probably wouldn't have been caught at all by Ultimate Hulk.
With his shield he can take a lot more punishment, for a lot longer then we've seen ultimate Cap take it. Despite Bendis and Austin not knowing the character from jack (in terms of what his shield can and can't take).
He's fought, and defeated (single handed) far greater foes then Ultimate Cap has ever faced with the backing of the entire Ultimates. He leads the Avengers for a reason.
Wow...2 pages of posts, and no one mentions the absolute THRASHING that ultimate Cap gave Giant-Man....I thought that was pretty eye opening for that character. I mean, 616 Cap would have taken him down, but in a 'cuter' way, like tripping him up with it or something.
Whereas Ult Cap really just...well...I cringed reading it. :)
Rokk_Krinn
04/20/2005, 23:04
Maybe because taking down Ultimate Giant-Man (who was drunk and suffering depression at the time too :) ) isn't that big (no pun intended). Certainly not on the level of, say, when 616 Hank as Ant-Man dropped the entire Avengers. ;)
Seriously though, 616 has even taken some rather nasty shots without his shield and still kept fighting. Ultimate Cap as noted probably hits about as hard as John Walker (U.S. Agent) - someone that Cap purposefully let hit him to prove that even after a staggering blow like that, Steve could take him.
I was more impressed in the WAY that Ult Cap beat Giant-Man down, not that he did it, necessarily. :) It was brutal.
Ultimate Capt is definitely more ruthless, but that doesn't make him more skilled, which 616 Capt takes. And he is better with the shield, so my vote's on the classic. Agressiveness doesn't always pay off against a sufficiently skilled foe with an unbreakable shield.
The Red Baron
04/20/2005, 23:24
well ultimate cap was good enough to keep bucky alive, shouldn't that count for something?
My votes with 616 Cap just because hes gone up against people so much more powerful than he has! GO CAP!
Ssolid_Snake
04/20/2005, 23:27
so your argument is because 616 has a good shield he wins...right,...ult cap is not u.s agent he is everything 616 cap is but several times better and cooler, he would snap 616 in half easy, 616 cap's strength level is 800lbs ult caps strength level is 2 tons he'd crush him, he'd like literally just crush his skull it'd be brutal
Rokk_Krinn
04/20/2005, 23:28
Considering the Ultimate Bucky wasn't embroiled in the same type of action as 616 Bucky? Not really. :)
It's like saying Superman keeping Jimmy Olson alive takes more skill than Bruce keeping Grayson alive in those early years. :)
The Red Baron
04/20/2005, 23:31
well of course it is easy to keep jimmy alive he keeps getting super powers
Yea but U.S. Agent could lift 10 tons and he fought similiar to Cap, but Cap still beat him.
I mean looking at the fight, I think 616 just has the upper hand with experience. Yea Ultimate Cap will do a lot to win and he will use dirty tactics if he has to, but I just think 616 wins because of his experience. I mean 616 was woken up and has been fighting countless enemies. Ultimates Cap is good and I think has the potential to beat 616 Cap over time as he gains more experience himself, but as of now, I think 616 cap owns
Originally posted by Ssolid_Snake
so your argument is because 616 has a good shield he wins...right,...ult cap is not u.s agent he is everything 616 cap is but several times better and cooler, he would snap 616 in half easy, 616 cap's strength level is 800lbs ult caps strength level is 2 tons he'd crush him, he'd like literally just crush his skull it'd be brutal
Well if you actually read the arguments, you'd notice that it
was his ability to use the skill that we were mentioning.
616 has an effective tool, which he uses effectively.
Ultimate Cap hardly ever uses it, relying more on the brute
strength and low cunning that you seem so dazzled by.
It seems like he can take a bit more, and so forgets to
bother blocking it.
This is just one reason why he'd get himself dropped.
Shield1776
04/21/2005, 09:11
Originally posted by Ssolid_Snake
that's still not stopping a bullet to his head...
Neither is that helmet.
Ult Cap is not a level head, 616 is. 616 wins merely by being patient enough to wiat for Ultimate to make a mistake. Top Gun's Iceman to Maverick so to speak. Both are great and I am a big fan of both, but merely dressing a guy in fatigues, putting a helmet on him and calling him dirty doesn't necessarily make him better.
Perfectstorm
04/21/2005, 10:22
Yeah, Ultimate loses his temper more, but look what happens everytime he loses his temper, he wins. Cap gets frusterated, he takes a "skrull" clean in half with his sheild.
Oh, and the same goes for Ultimate Cap about waking up and beating the avengers. Litterally seconds after waking up, he was out the window and destroyed a full size giant man withing 20 seconds worth of time, and theat is even after being smashed into blacktop.
I'm gunna have to go Ultimate on this one. I think they are equal in skill everything except strength, and Ult has the advatage in that.
(and if I recall, Captian America beat Red Skull with the cube twice, both time when he was off monolouging about how great he was, once he flying kicks him in the back and the other he lopes his arm off with the sheild
Rokk_Krinn
04/21/2005, 12:00
Originally posted by Perfectstorm
Oh, and the same goes for Ultimate Cap about waking up and beating the avengers. Litterally seconds after waking up, he was out the window and destroyed a full size giant man withing 20 seconds worth of time, and theat is even after being smashed into blacktop.
We must have read a different Ultimates #2 because the one I saw played a wee bit differently. Cap woke up and broke out, as you say, but he didn't destroy a full-size Giant Man but rather just the opposite. Hank grew and swatted the just-awakened Cap so hard that people were worried that the inexperienced doctor had just squashed the super-soldier. That's how they recaptured Cap - no destroying of Avengers there. :)
Ssolid_Snake
04/21/2005, 16:01
actually ult cap doesn't lose his cool like your saying, he only got mad once, and that was at the skrull leader, because he told him to surrender, and when he did get mad, well...he cut him in half so...yea that doesn't support your argument at all, ult cap also does use his shield quite frequently to block and attack with, but besides his shield he is also much stronger and more durable than 616 cap, the only thing 616 cap has going for him is that he has more experience which is only because ult cap is a much newer character to 616 cap, and ult cap still wins, if you toke them at a similar time after their creation ult cap would dominate even more!
No he doesn't
Practically the only time he used it against Herr Kleiser was
to temporarily cut him in half...and as a result he got a good
kicking.
Without checking, I don't recall him using it in anything but
WW2 flashbacks, and maybe the opening of the current U2 series.
Ultimate Cap, simply hasn't demonstrated anywhere near the
skill of 616, making up for it with brutality and raw strength.
The comparison to US Agent is really quite accurate.
Perfectstorm
04/21/2005, 18:57
Originally posted by Rokk_Krinn
We must have read a different Ultimates #2 because the one I saw played a wee bit differently. Cap woke up and broke out, as you say, but he didn't destroy a full-size Giant Man but rather just the opposite. Hank grew and swatted the just-awakened Cap so hard that people were worried that the inexperienced doctor had just squashed the super-soldier. That's how they recaptured Cap - no destroying of Avengers there. :) sorry, didnt have my books with me. It was differnt issue that he totalled Giant man
GAMBIT_99
04/21/2005, 19:28
616 cap would win because he is the REAL cap and he has more experience and because he's awsome.
not to mention this quote from cap to walker
i still own the copyright to that uniform soldier. you'll be hearing from my lawyer.
Ssolid_Snake
04/21/2005, 20:24
Originally posted by NotYou
No he doesn't
Practically the only time he used it against Herr Kleiser was
to temporarily cut him in half...and as a result he got a good
kicking.
Without checking, I don't recall him using it in anything but
WW2 flashbacks, and maybe the opening of the current U2 series.
Ultimate Cap, simply hasn't demonstrated anywhere near the
skill of 616, making up for it with brutality and raw strength.
The comparison to US Agent is really quite accurate.
examples of ult cap using his shield to attack besides splitting the skrull guy in half, he threw his shield at hard-drives face and knocked her out, threw his shield at ult magneto when he broke into the triskelion, beat the poo outta ALOT of nazis in issue 1 of ultimates with it, beat hulk in the face with it, slices the top of the skrull leader's skull off. well anyway he has used it more than once and of course then there is the obvious using it block pretty everything,he's used it a few times in ultimates 2, but since i don't have my issues on hand at the moment i won't include those, granted his short comic book career that's not bad.
Originally posted by Ssolid_Snake
examples of ult cap using his shield to attack besides splitting the skrull guy in half, he threw his shield at hard-drives face and knocked her out, threw his shield at ult magneto when he broke into the triskelion, beat the poo outta ALOT of nazis in issue 1 of ultimates with it, beat hulk in the face with it, slices the top of the skrull leader's skull off. well anyway he has used it more than once and of course then there is the obvious using it block pretty everything,he's used it a few times in ultimates 2, but since i don't have my issues on hand at the moment i won't include those, granted his short comic book career that's not bad.
And not a single specific example of using a Shield in a defensive
manner...remarkable.
He doesn't block with it...plain and simple, unfortunately.
Maniac_nmt
04/21/2005, 23:41
Originally posted by NotYou
And not a single specific example of using a Shield in a defensive
manner...remarkable.
He doesn't block with it...plain and simple, unfortunately.
I like Ultimate Cap, I like his character, but NotYou is bang on.
Ultimate Cap gets kicked and punched by guys who'd never lay a finger on Steve. He got kicked in the gut, and busted arround by that Soviet Super Soldier in Ultimate Nightmare (without really using the shield defensively), got grabbed and clobbered by the Hulk, got busted up bad vs Kleiser. Now he kept going, but normal Steve wouldn't have taken any where near as many hits like that (and still could take that beating and come up fresher then Ult Cap, yes, read the old Stan Lee/Kirby Cap, he could take far worse beatings, and come up smelling like roses and go right back at it like he was just getting into the fight, shoot, he'd kick the carp out of guys who gave even Iron Man a hard time).
Shield1776
04/22/2005, 12:53
As far as 616 Cap's skill with his shield, I believe I read an issue of 616 where Cap was sitting on the floor of his apartment throwing his shield across the room and lighting a zippo. Then throwing it again to put it out. I would call that skill. Ult. Cap's skill with his shield boils down to hitting someone in the face with it.
Ult. Cap is a great character and one that has been needed for a while to give Cap the contemporary rough edge. Believe me, I am a big fan of Ult. Cap, but 616 has demonstrated more skill than Ult. up to now. Perhaps some day Ult will equal 616, but that day has not come yet. Strength does not equal victory. Just ask Mike Tyson.
Ssolid_Snake
04/22/2005, 16:00
i didn't mention him using it defensively at all because there were so many examples it wasn't worth listing, he blocks with it all the time, if i mentioned everytime he used it it'd take WAY too long
Originally posted by Ssolid_Snake
i didn't mention him using it defensively at all because there were so many examples it wasn't worth listing, he blocks with it all the time, if i mentioned everytime he used it it'd take WAY too long
No it wouldn't...go ahead.
I just checked through the first 13 issues.
There are 2 panels where he uses his shield defensively.
Both against gunfire, never in close combat.
Just checked Ultimate 6...No defensive uses.
Just checked Ultimate War...No defensive uses.
Just checked Ultimate Nightmare...
2 panels blocking range...1 blocking melee.
Just checked Ultimates 2 issues 1-5...
2 panels blocking gunfire.
It really isn't all the time is it.
Ssolid_Snake
04/22/2005, 20:48
well one it would depend on how many parts of the story he is, two ultimates mostly isn't all about fighting so there isn't even combat in some issues, it still sounds like all the time...but i will agree its mostly from ranged attacks not in melee
The majority of the times he used the shield defensively
were against unamed goons with guns.
The only exceptions were in Ultimate Nightmare.
He blocks two blasts from Ultimate Unicorn, and one strike
from Ultimate Red Guardian.
It's a bit of a bugbear with me, because I like both Caps,
but cannot for the life of me understand why the Ultimate
doesn't parry all the beatings that come his way.
If he used it the way 616 does, Kleiser wouldn't have landed
a single blow, but at one point he was actually flogging him
with what appears to be a parking meter.
The Mad Titan
04/24/2005, 21:13
616 Cap for the win because I think he is smarter and a better fighter i think the ULt Cap is more agressive and maybe even stronger but I think 616 would take it
Ult cap, more aggressive, a little under handed as well
GoldenAge
04/26/2005, 09:06
Originally posted by The Mad Titan
ULt Cap is more agressive...
This is exactly why 616 Cap would take this fight. If nothing else Captain America is a thinking man's fighter. He's always playing chess with his opponent and trying to find ways to use one's power against them. Ultimate Cap has glaring weaknesses in his psychic make-up that the real Cap will exploit.
The original Captain America schools the fake, trumped-up Cap wannabe.
Rocketman
04/26/2005, 09:16
616 for the win. He'd make the ultimate cap look clumsy.
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.