View Full Version : TV Cartoon Battles: Mixed Teams TOC: Round 1, Match 13
The Fourth Quarter of Round 1 BEGINS. Were just down to our Final 8 Team, which of which will advance to Round 2, 4 will fall in defeat. Which shall rise and which shall fall, that as always is up to YOU.
With pretty much the same rules as with all of my TOCs, except this time:
The terrain has been enlarged to 40 miles wide, as always, protected by a force field of the strongest power to prevent characters from escaping or flying their foes to the sun.
Team will now have a 10 minute "Planning Stage" where each team can talk and prep amongst themsevles against the opposing team. Characters may NOT leave their immediate area during this time and no powers, spells,etc. can be used. This is a planning, sharing information stage only.
Now without further adieu, allow me to present your next battle in a BRAND NEW (aka: OLD, OLD, OLD) type of Tournament Of Champions:
TEAM MOZENRATH - Sherlock Holmes (Sherlock Holmes In The 22nd Century), Serpentor (G. I. Joe), Optimus Prime (Transformers), Mozenrath (Aladdin)
VS.
TEAM GUNDAM - James Bond Jr. (James Bond Jr.), Sgt. Slaughter (G. I. Joe), Vash The Stampede (Trigun), The Gundam (Mobile Suit Gundam)
As always, same rules apply, no time to prepare, POOFed from where ever they were, with only what they routinely carry on them AND/OR routinely used in their shows, to fight in a Large area til one stands and one falls. YOU decide Who.
Randomly Chosen Area:
Jungle Ruins - Lush, verdant trees rise over the jungle floor below. Thick vines crisscross the canopy. A large, ruined city complex sits in the center. It's fantastic masonry eroded by rain and time. In the middle it is bisected by a large, placid river flowing in at one end of the arena, and leaving through the other. (Inspired by: Tarzan, Jungle Book, etc)
Thanks all, and enjoy.
And REMEMBER, if youre not sure who someone is here, ASK. Theres PLENTY of people here who can tell you most anything youd like to know. Thanks again.
ALSO, please do your best to respect everyones votes, reasonings and opinions here. If you believe your character should win, but doesnt in the end, dont hold grudges against the character that beat yours, or call the votes that allowed this to happen "fanboy" arguments or plain and simply wrong. We all have our own way of thinking and voting here, with each one of our thoughts and ideas as valid as your own. Lets do what we can, even in the heat of an argument, to respect that. Thanks.
TV CARTOON TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS Part 5
ROUND 1
Team He-Man vs. Team Imhotep: Team He-Man (12 - 10)
Team Superion vs. Team Gundam Deathscythe: Team Superion (13 - 1)
Team Venger vs. Team Sailor Saturn: Team Venger (10 - 0)
Team Dracula vs. Team Wiseman: Team Wiseman (8 - 6)
Team Tiamat vs. Team Voltron (Lion Form): Team Voltron (Lion Form): (11 - 10)
Team Genie vs. Team Experiment 627: Team Genie (14 - 0)
Team Legato Bluesummers vs. Team Talpa: Team Legato Bluesummers (8 - 7)
Team Devastator vs. Team Lord Hazanko: Team Lord Hazanko (4 - 1)
Team Shendu vs. Team Ryoko: Team Shendu (8 - 5)
Team Space Ghost vs. Team BlackWarGreymon: Team Space Ghost (6 - 5)
Team Voltron (Vehicle Form) vs. Team Hordak: Team Hordak (7 - 3)
Team Godzilla vs. Team Pyron: Team Godzilla (7 - 5)
Team Mozenrath vs. Team Gundam: ??????
14 Down, 2 To Go
Sorry Vash, but you lose. Mozenrath teleports inside the Gundam and does the anti-piolt thing, Optimus kills everyone else from 30 miles away.
Maniac_nmt
04/20/2005, 14:01
Slaughter kicks the living heck out of Serpentor, but then looses when Optimus almost single handed wastes the other team.
Wow...just wow. This team flew under my radar in the preliminaries. OP and Mozenwrath??? OP gets everything but the Gundam while Mozenwrath takes it from inside. Wow...what a team up! The only thing I see posing a problem is that OP is very good and Mozenwrath is very evil. They might not work well together, but its a simple enough task in this round that they won't need to.
Ive gotta say the 10 minute prep session is going to be KILLER for Team Mozenrath, not just here, but in any match theyre in.
Sherlock Holmes - one of the smartest and most intelligent humans in the history of fiction.
Serpentor - a being that is made up from the minds and abilities of some of the worlds best leaders and tactical minds.
Optimus Prime - his own immense leadership and wisdom is amplified by the Matrix which gives him the leadership and wisdom of all the Autobot leaders before him.
Between Holmes, Serpentor and Prime in their prep session, teams are going to be hard pressed to outthink and outplan this Team.
Not to mention Mozenrath is an immensely capable sorcerrer who Im sure he put even Genie in the ringer more than a few times.
In the end here, Im going Team Mozenrath, and not just because Mozenrath could probably take down Gundams pilot somewhat easily.
I have a new favorite for the ultimate winner now...
Well the prep session is kind of a mixed blessing, on the one hand thery are all smart, but on the other they are all also people that wouldn't like one another. Mozenrath sure as heck isn't going to tolerate Serpentor's mouth, and I doubt Optimus would jive too well with all the evil, so don't make a mountain out of it.
Serpentor will fit in nicely in the end, hes smart enough to realize his main goal and that his teammates are more powerful and equally as smart/clever. Mozenrath I dont know, but if hes smart enough to become an Uber Wizard, Im sure he has the brains to realize what he NEEDS to do and to safe the gruff and attitude for his opponents, not his team.
(and for those that say Mozenrath will be easy since all you need to do is remove his glove, I seem to remember Thanos with an Ultimately Powerful Glove as well, and removing that wasnt so easy. :) )
Rando just doesn't like it when he and I agree...I even admit that I get an eerie feeling when Rando and I agree. Its like a cold shiver....:laugh: :laugh:
That's just a side effect of the mind control. Um, I mean the weather.
(begins searching ebay for a magneto-like helmet)
hail_eris
04/20/2005, 14:39
Originally posted by MSU
Wow...just wow. This team flew under my radar in the preliminaries.
Good grief, you're right. I don't know how I missed them. I'm all about emphasizing team synergy and these four are brutal. They may not like each other, but every one of them is what I'd call "results oriented". It's going to take a lot to drop a gaggle of geniuses with the kind of firepower they bring to the table. Team Mensa to advance.
Shield001
04/20/2005, 14:50
Ive never read these threads before so can I still pick or something?
Mozenrath I dont know who this is even thoguh ive seen the show and stuff .
if he can teleport inside the gundam and take out the pilot then they will win.
I Think serpentor is way to egotistical to work with anyone and will try and take the role of leader of the team which I dont think the others will like. Optims prime and Holmes whould never work with any one so evil I dont think unless they where under mind control somehow....
but assumeing they do and assumeing Mozenrath can take out the gunams pilot then team Mozenrath will win, HOWEVER I still want team gundam to win somehow I mean they chould, I dont know Vash The Stampede at all.
on a side note, how chould team ryoko lose...(unless its a ryoko from a show other then Tenchi)
Originally posted by Shield001
on a side note, how chould team ryoko lose...(unless its a ryoko from a show other then Tenchi)
a very good question :)
anyways, yeah... team monzerath for the win....
but i don't see the good guys and bad guys working well together.
luckily for them holmes (sherlock you pervs)/optimus and serpentor/monzerath still work together as formidable pairs.
at least they will after the two evil guys figure out who the alpha male is.
I think a far more amusing victory is if Optimus turns into the truck and runs the other team over.
Jog my memory, I haven't seen Aladdin in a while. Mozenrath was the guy with the skeletal hand and the eel sidekick, right?
Vote: Team Sherlock Optimus Mozenrath
Yow, nothing short of Team Wiseman's going to be a threat to Team Mozenrath. As has been said, between Sherlock and Optimus there's going to be a killer plan, which Mozenrath and Optimus then execute. Serpentor's ego is going to be a nuisance, but the rest of them make up for that deficiency.
And Shield001, you want a misccariage of justice, how about team Space Ghost beating a team that can liquidate it before they even leave their starting area?!
The Red Baron
04/20/2005, 23:17
I cry, because even though team gundam cant win i want them to. heck even optimus can take out gundam, optimus takes out the entire team with some help from monsie
Shield001
04/21/2005, 00:21
to be clear my vote is for team gundam
just because I want them to win, even if its unrealistic, of course is any of this realistic?
so I hope others vote the same way.....
I dont think Serpentors ego is going to be that big a deal. With COBRA, as he was created to be THEIR Emperor, sure, but in a WAR such as this, with him being smart enough to realize hes NOT the big man on campus anymore, hell realize the only way to WIN and achieve his ultimate goal he is to work together with his teammates, no constantly shouting "This I Command" To COBRA soliders sure, to Optimus Prime, no way.
Originally posted by Shield001
to be clear my vote is for team gundam
just because I want them to win, even if its unrealistic, of course is any of this realistic?
so I hope others vote the same way.....
Sorry Shield, you pretty much admit in your first post Team Mozenrath will win, and that this post above is basically you voting for who you WANT to win over who you really BELIEVE would win. Cant count this vote, not that it would really matter here, though there is a principle to it all.
Shield001
04/21/2005, 02:38
oh I thought you just pick who you want to win, my bad im sorry....now I know for next time, but your right it doesnt really matter for this fight it seems.
once again sry
Yeah man, see the trick is that you throw down an improbable or impossible scenario, then disregard all information that would dispute it.
hail_eris
04/21/2005, 09:43
Originally posted by Rando
Yeah man, see the trick is that you throw down an improbable or impossible scenario, then disregard all information that would dispute it.
Hey, I've still got plenty of scenarios left where Magneto beats Superman...
Prof. Aragorn
04/21/2005, 09:55
Feh, this is just too easy for Vash.
In the jungle he's completely stealthy before he strikes and when he strikes no one can predict.
Doesn't Mozenrath need a glove or something to do his spells. It just got shot off thanks to Vash's PC shooting.
Before Optimus can begin his targeting to shoot Vash Sherlock is hit with a rubber bullet and is left unconcious and Serpentor is as good as down.
Then it's Slaughter, the Gundam with some pretty good equipment from James Bond Jr. and a wounded Vash (thanks largely in part due to Optimus Prime) vs. Optimus Prime.
The Gundam with an equipment boost can probably hold Optimus while Vash just uses his real bullets to bring Optimus down.
Vash got a real boost with the terrain providing some nice stealth cover before he strikes and brings down everybody in a single gunshot.
Vote: Vash the Stampede.
Even if Mozenrath teleports in the Gundam, he's not going to win. Vash has been put up against a lot worse than these guys. If Serpentor or Mozenrath decide to kill anybody-they lose because that's going to bring Vash over the edge and he and he alone will take out the team.
Prof...Prof....Prof....I give you kudos for your unrelentless support of your characters.
But your scenario is all kinds of messed up. Vash is never going to see Mozenwrath because he is going to be messing up the Gundam. And if you think Vash can take down OP, you are sadly mistaken. OP has sensors and will be able to track Vash and blow him to kingdom come. If you think Team Mozenwrath is just going to sit there and let Vash take them all out, that is just wishful thinking.
Creative scenario though...
Prof. Aragorn
04/21/2005, 10:04
Vash would cream Optimus Prime, the missles will be too late because by the time they reach Vash he's already blown a hole through Optimus' wiring and forced a shutdown on Optimus' sensors.
Vash even can control the trajectories of the missles and cause them to veer off course. That's how he dodges bullets at point blank range (other than complex mathematical computations and dodging within seconds).
How would Vash be blown to Kingdom Come if he is unhittable?
Because while dodging bullets is one thing, dodging lasers, missiles and bullets and not being stomped on while Mozenwrath is creating havok around you is another.
Vash is good....just not that good.
The Red Baron
04/21/2005, 12:38
yea prof a I love trigun but vash cant mess up the trajectories of lazers
Prof. Aragorn
04/21/2005, 12:48
Vash possesses the meta-human ability to affect trajectories of projectiles. He can dodge laser fire, machine gun fire, magical blasts while using his pc to move the rockets to hit Optimus or Serpentor.
And Mozenrath taking control of the gundam is going to be tough since James Bond Jr. probably has a gadget that will keep Mozenrath from overriding the Gundam's system. Vash is pretty good at motivating machines/robotics/plants as well. It's going to be very tough for Mozenrath to just 'port in and start controlling a machine.
The Red Baron
04/21/2005, 12:52
He has no meta human abilities to do that! he is fast enough and has a gun powerful enough to be able to shot objects away from him, he is fast not some god like man who controls objects with his mind. And he has no pc, he has some of the owrst luck ever. He might live but the ones around him are screwed
Prof. Aragorn
04/21/2005, 12:59
How can someone be fast enough to just stand there as a bullet comes at them and then barely get grazed by it?
Even the episode guide says he can change trajectories. Wolfwood even could tell that Vash could change trajectories in the episode with the quick draw tournament.
Two man stand back to back march ten spaces, turn around and fire.
Meanwhile Vash is tossing pebbles up in the air about 20 feet away. When they fire he catches the pebbles in the air. Both men only end up with minor wounds. Wolfwood turns to him and says: You're very good at changing trajectories aren't you?"
He can communicate with plants and machines that's how he saved the city from a meltdown, shut down the spider-alien-robot factory, and convinced the plant on the ship to keep powering the ship up.
If he was just fast and had ungodly accuracy he'd be a lightweight ala Jigen.
Teron_Gorfiend
04/21/2005, 13:06
Is vash supposed to be a MW? If so then how come you keep discribing him as if he's a SW? Sure Vash my be good but the overall opposing team just outdoes his. Oh and since a laser isnt a projectile, vash cant control it and gets incinerated.
Vote:Team Mozenrath
The Red Baron
04/21/2005, 13:26
I am saying he uses things to change them he doesnt do it with his mind.
Originally posted by Prof. Aragorn
Vash would cream Optimus Prime, the missles will be too late because by the time they reach Vash he's already blown a hole through Optimus' wiring and forced a shutdown on Optimus' sensors.
Vash even can control the trajectories of the missles and cause them to veer off course. That's how he dodges bullets at point blank range (other than complex mathematical computations and dodging within seconds).
How would Vash be blown to Kingdom Come if he is unhittable?
What weapons does Vash have that can blow a hole in Optimus Prime?
Prof. Aragorn
04/21/2005, 13:36
Originally posted by Teron_Gorfiend
Is vash supposed to be a MW? If so then how come you keep discribing him as if he's a SW? Sure Vash my be good but the overall opposing team just outdoes his. Oh and since a laser isnt a projectile, vash cant control it and gets incinerated.
Vote:Team Mozenrath
Vash is high end Heavyweight. He would be superheavyweight if he had the means to damage such superheavyweights. Someone like Mozenrath doesn't have the durability like some of the giant robots do that's a reason Vash could potentiall take him.
Team Mozenrath - 10 votes
Team Gundam - 1 vote
Prof. Aragorn
04/21/2005, 13:39
Originally posted by DTM
What weapons does Vash have that can blow a hole in Optimus Prime?
He has a machine gun-arm, and he also has a handgun that forms his angel arm weapon. The handgun is huge and it's bullets are quite powerful-able to pierce armor and most metals.
You do realize though that Optimus Prime is Amazingly durable, alot more so than most if not all earthly metals. Since Vash cant use his Angel Arm here, I fail to see how he could significantly damage OP, lets along blow a hole right thru him.
Well note that Vash's handguns are much stronger than normal hand weapons. They were designed by Knives, someone who is a supergenius (at least) and they have been shown to inflict much more damage than normal weapons: In one episode Vash destroyed a metal fist the size of a small car with his pistol, in another he used his machine gun to drill a hole straight through several floors of a satellite (that was not made of Earth metal). In addition Vash will always be shooting Optimus in the weakest point of Prime's anatomy possible that wouldn't result in his (Prime's) destruction, and Vash can be a lot more unforgiving to Prime as his robot body wouldn't respond as adversly to punishment as a human's would. I'm not saying I think Vash's team can win or anything, but don't think Prime can just walk up to Vash and crush him with his pinky.
Shield001
04/21/2005, 15:24
ish I had known who/what vsh chould do earlyer, not that I believe he can beat optomis, it just gives team gundam at least a fighting chance I guess, which before it seemed like they did not stnd a chance.
Really the thought that Gundam's team can win this isn't so outlandish. In anticipation of Mozenrath's teleportation attack Vash could easily switch places with the Gundam's pilot during the prep session, Mozenrath has a bad time pegging fast people (for example Aladdin) then when Moz teleports in Vash will wreck him, thereby keeping their SHW, and costing Mozenrath's team their own. After that Vash switches back out with the actual pilot who engages Prime as a superior (being a SHW after all) and leaving Vash still fully operational to assist hims team against the MW and LW (who Vash could beat solo). I think I'll change my vote.
Of course you will Rando...why wouldn't you?
You realize that Team Mozenwrath has some of the greatest strategists in the tournament. Mozenwrath destroys the gundam, gets out before it blows, leaving the Gundam to blow up with Vash inside. Bam...two down with one blow.
You realize that that is also true of Vash's team, and unlike Mozenrath's they will not be at each other's throats. Forgive me of I'm a little sceptical of how Mozenrath just blows up the Gundam, care to elaborate on this?
Shield001
04/21/2005, 16:52
Originally posted by Rando
Really the thought that Gundam's team can win this isn't so outlandish. In anticipation of Mozenrath's teleportation attack Vash could easily switch places with the Gundam's pilot during the prep session, Mozenrath has a bad time pegging fast people (for example Aladdin) then when Moz teleports in Vash will wreck him, thereby keeping their SHW, and costing Mozenrath's team their own. After that Vash switches back out with the actual pilot who engages Prime as a superior (being a SHW after all) and leaving Vash still fully operational to assist hims team against the MW and LW (who Vash could beat solo). I think I'll change my vote.
ahhhhhh why didn't I think of that..........:confused:
I chould see that happening if this where a real battle in a cartoon, Mozen pops in to the gundam expecting an easy kill only to find vash who is fast enough to rip Mozens arm off (I think) especially if taken by suprise.
Another thing I failed to consider and that no one else has brought up is that the gundam pilot himself is tough right? Im only familiar with gundam wing, so if the pilot is similar to any of them then It might not be so easy for Moz to just pop in and kill him. Slaughter can take serpentor, who I still think wont get along with the others unless hes incharge.
I dont want to be a pain, but if he gets to change his I whould like to change mine on the basis that I now know Vashs abilitys and I forgot about the gundam pilots own skills even out of his robot, and the stratagy of haveing vash starting out in the pilot seat of the gundam to suprise Moz.
another thing,
isnt optomis a SHW? I think hes more then just a HW, but the gundam with its pilot is I thnk a fair match for optimus if not better.
on a side note why cant vash use this "angel arm" thing? and what is it exactly?
Prof. Aragorn
04/21/2005, 18:35
The Angel Arm weapon is really destructive. It would put Vash above the superheavyweights as it has been able to put a hole in the moon, destroy cities, etc.
Besides, it has the potential to kill-Vash doesn't kill.
I'll admit, the 10 minutes of prep will be really monsterous to Mozenrath's team-largely in part due to 3 top tier planners.
However Vash's team is pretty good at making plans as well. James Bond Jr. with his gadgets, Sgt. Slaughter with his military training, Vash is a genius (probably Lobo intelligence, has it, but doesn't use it as his primary strength unless he really has to).
Shield001
04/21/2005, 20:23
im sure the gundam pilot is intelegent and for sure has military training.
Actually, switching places with Amuro is the sort of thing Vash would do, and Mozenrath is going to be thinking "WHAT THE SPORK!" when he ends up in the cockpit with a pistol at his head. And Vash is easily fast enough to yoink the Gauntlet of The Black Sands off of him. Then they switch back.
The only question is, would Sherlock think of that...
Considering changing my vote, #### you Prof.
Well the real beauty to the tactic is it doesn't matter if Mozenrath's team thinks of it or not. For them to counter it Mozenrath has to accept that Vash is a threat to himself, which demands Mozenrath to admit weakness in himself, something his personality will not allow him to do unless the opponent is question is obviously WAY more powerful than himself. Not only is switching places clever it plays to the weaknesses in the personality of the other team.
The Red Baron
04/21/2005, 21:52
at this stage the gundam piloit is almost worthless, well he is a great piliot but he is still just 15teen years old.
For the record, I picked team Mozenwrath to win the whole thing from the get-go. Giving Sherlok prep time is like Magneto geting the Spacestation terrain. Planning is what he does. Plus the help of serpentator, and the fire-power of OP, and the magic, this is over. My vote...
TEAM MOZENWRATH
Rando, you just convinced me. Sherlock might think of it, actually, he WILL think of it. Doesn't help though, since Mozenrath will laugh it off, and once the match starts, teleport off to the Gundam's cockpit. "No mortal mightier than I, Mozenrath, Lord of the Black Sands" and all that jazz.
Change my vote to Team Gundam. Mozenrath's ego just shot his team in the foot.
Sheesh, go to work and we get 3 switched votes, based on the HW taking over the SHW of his own team.
Mozenrath I dont think is going to ignore the advice of his entire team, especially knowing what they all are and how overall intelligent and capable they are. Having him say "BAH, Ill do what I want even if its stupid", doesnt really pan out for me.
If Sherlock can figure out such a scheme, Im sure he will convince Mozenrath to NOT teleport into the Gundam (and for the record I dont think Mozenrath needs to use such a tactic to take the Gundam or help his teammates here). Optimus can keep the Gundam busy while Mozenrath mows down the LW, MW and SHW pilot, leaving JUST Vash inside a piece of equipment hes not familiar with to battle the entire Team Mozenrath.
Stretching a bit I think (especially for Shield who is looking for any reason to vote Team Gundam and Professor A who thinks Vash could handle the entire opposing team himself :) ), as the entire winning strategy of Team Gundam is SOLELY based on Mozenrath teleporting inside Gundam. He doesnt do that, the plan falls FLAT and Team Gundam gets KILLED, and Im sure the likes of his GENIUS level tactical teammates can convince him not to easily enough.
Egotistical doesnt mean stupid, hes going to realize he NEEDS his team here, or hes Dead, literally.
Team Mozenrath - 9 votes
Team Gundam - 4 votes
Originally posted by DTM
Stretching a bit I think, as the entire winning strategy of Team Gundam is SOLELY based on Mozenrath teleporting inside Gundam. He doesnt do that, the plan falls FLAT and Team Gundam gets KILLED, and Im sure the likes of his GENIUS level tactical teammates can convince him not to easily enough.
Team Mozenrath - 9 votes
Team Gundam - 4 votes
Change that to 10 Mozenrath votes.
You summed up my opposition to the pro-Gundam arguments nicely. Can they win? Sure. But when the only reasonable scenario that has been described works only if team Mozenrath does exactly what team Gundam wants...
Sorry, but this team is darn near like putting Captain America and Batman together and letting them plan out a strategy.
Really the only reasonable scenario doesn't depend upon Mozenrath teleporting into the Gundam. Lets say he gets convinced that it's too risky, and just doesn't and deceides to fight in a more normal manner. That leaves the Gundam fully operational. From there it enages Optimus and remains low enough to the ground that for Mozenrath to attack the Gundam he must be in range of Vash. Again, Mozenrath is very bad against fast, quick thinking characters, watch some of his appearances he almost always gets beat because Aladdin worms his way up to him after a lot of dodgeing and gets his glove, or because the team uses some uber-magic thing he was messing with against him. In Vash you have someone who is like an uber-Aladdin, with guns. This means that even if Vash can't take Mozenrath out directly, he can almost defiently maintain his attention for an enourmous period of time, which is time that the Gundam will be useing to kill Optimus Prime (as The Gundam in no way has a track record of being bad against other gun toteing robots, and is a higher weight class). There is no way on Earth you are going to convince me that Serpentor is going to do anything but try and kill Slaughter, until one of the two is dead, and the general concensus from G.I.Joe enthusiasts (I think anyway) is that Slaughter should take Serpentor, regardless the battle will likewise occupy both characters a significant amount of time. Bond and Sherlock are equally well matched. So tricking Mozenrath on the teleport is by no means the only way that Gundam's team can win, just the threat thereof should also secure them a win.
Personally, if you say both teams LW and MWs are evenly matched, which I do agree, Id go for Optimus Prime and Mozenrath to take Vash and Gundam more than not anyway.
hail_eris
04/22/2005, 16:02
Isn't this the same Gundam that had an uncanny knack for locking its joints and blowing its motors in combat? It couldn't keep up with the pilot's reaction speed, so you'd just get a grinding noise and then it would just kind of shudder to a halt. I know that they eventually dealt with that on the show, but it seems to me that it wouldn't take much for a wizard of Mozenrath's class to simply strip the lubrication from the Gundam's entire chasis. Heck, change it to sand for even more fun. Mozenrath doesn't have to attack the pilot - he can turn the Gundam into a 60-foot-high statue. I'm pretty sure that, tough as he is, Vash wouldn't be able to handle getting double teamed by both Mozenrath and Optimus Prime...
Unless they go into a great deal of detail about joint lubrication in the show then that seems to be something of a departure from Mozenrath's technological expertise.
Maybe Mozenrath wouldnt know, but what about Optimus and Serpentor? Both of them live in a high tech world, and could surely give Mozenrath some great pointers on how to defeat Gundam (especially Optimus who is a very similiar character himself) The 10 minute prep sessions will be KEY with this team here as their intellect and miliatry tactical knowledge are HUGE, and the more they win, the more theyll trust one another input and ideas for better overall teamwork.
Gawd the thought of Mozenrath takeing pointers from anyone about anything makes my mind reel.
I cant say I know about Mozenrath, but unless hes a complete idiot hes going to realize that if he wants to live HE MUST work with his team. He is not powerful enough to take on an entire opposing team himself, and hell see this in Second 1 from all of their downloaded bios. Again, Egotistical doesnt mean stupid. Even Doom has worked with others, he just has a plan to snatch Ultimate Victory for himself alone, AFTER he and his teammates win.
Uh-huh. I dunno why you deify villians so much DTM, someone doesn't get to be a a murderous psycho that lives in a city populated by zombies because they are a well balanced individual. Like most super villians Mozenrath doesn't have a good grasp on reality, you would think after he got thwarted 4 or 5 times in a row because he was busy monologging, or left Aladdin and his friends alive so that he could have a captive audience he would figure out that was a bad idea, he just can't his personality prevents it.
Seriously if people like Doom are as smart as you say and don't have personal issues then why do you think they loose all the time? Why do you think Doom blames Reed Richards for an accident that was in no way Reed's fault? Answer:because the alternative is to accept his fallability. Mozenrath is just the same way, he won't accept that he can be defeated, his insecuritys, which manifest as egotism, won't allow it.
Smart villians are not as good as smart hero's, hero's have a good grasp on reality, not a slew of persoanl issues.
Doom isnt as smart as I say, hes really THAT SMART. Villains lose BECAUSE they are Villains, plain and simple. If the Villains won, the heroes would be dead, and the show/comic would be over. Face it, Villains have a bum rap, and only in the scarcest of moments will one actually win.
Look at Hal vs. Sinestro, or CM vs Black Adam. 2 sets of characters with INDENTICAL powers, yet which character has the overwhelming win record? The Hero, because they ARE the heroes.
This is why I do my VS Battles V v V and H v H, because otherwise the bad guy wouldnt have much of a shot.
Villains mainly lose, its practically what they are created for, that doesnt mean we are to doubt their intellect or power because they do, ESPECIALLY here in a Neutral universe.
Doom works with others in extreme situations, and he works WELL, this will be NO DIFFERENT for Mozenrath here.
hail_eris
04/22/2005, 17:16
Originally posted by Rando
Unless they go into a great deal of detail about joint lubrication in the show then that seems to be something of a departure from Mozenrath's technological expertise.
Actually they did go into great detail. It was the whole reason that they had to upgrade the Gundam. It had *major* issues with joints freezing up, motors burning out, and fire control systems going all wonky because they weren't built for Newtype reflexes. They went in and basically packed the whole thing with grease and fiddled with the on-board computer's fly by wire systems. Any hi-tech system is suceptible to the dreaded "lucky BB" - the Gundam series, unfortunately for his team, demonstrated to Mozenrath just where that BB should be fired...
So what you are saying is that you think that the vast majority of written and visual media is poorly written and that there usually no good reason at all for the hero's to triumph? And that furthermore any claims of their personal effectiveness is just a farce because there is no logical reason whatesoever for them to emerge victorious from the conflicts in which they find themselves other than that the wroter thinks that his readers want the hero to win?
Prof. Aragorn
04/22/2005, 17:20
Originally posted by Grinner
Change that to 10 Mozenrath votes.
You summed up my opposition to the pro-Gundam arguments nicely. Can they win? Sure. But when the only reasonable scenario that has been described works only if team Mozenrath does exactly what team Gundam wants...
Sorry, but this team is darn near like putting Captain America and Batman together and letting them plan out a strategy.
If Mozenrath doesn't teleport inside the gundam then his hand gets shot off by Vash.
If he does, Vash who could potentially rival Sherlock Holmes in thinking ability, would surprise Mozenrath.
Originally posted by hail_eris
Actually they did go into great detail. It was the whole reason that they had to upgrade the Gundam. It had *major* issues with joints freezing up, motors burning out, and fire control systems going all wonky because they weren't built for Newtype reflexes. They went in and basically packed the whole thing with grease and fiddled with the on-board computer's fly by wire systems. Any hi-tech system is suceptible to the dreaded "lucky BB" - the Gundam series, unfortunately for his team, demonstrated to Mozenrath just where that BB should be fired...
This however is a good reason to vote for Mozenrtah's team, and so I'll switch back.
Originally posted by Rando
So what you are saying is that you think that the vast majority of written and visual media is poorly written and that there usually no good reason at all for the hero's to triumph? And that furthermore any claims of their personal effectiveness is just a farce because there is no logical reason whatesoever for them to emerge victorious from the conflicts in which they find themselves other than that the wroter thinks that his readers want the hero to win?
Pick a side why dont you and stick with it. :)
Regarding the above, I am saying that Heroes are made to win in the end (most of the time) and Villains made to lose. Sure the reasons for the heroes wins are mostly well thought out and validated, but in the end its because they are the heroes that such reasons are even thought up (by the authors) in the first place.
Here in these neutral settings we dont have an issue of "Im the good guy I always win". The bad guy can win too, because theres no fear of a show/comic being cancelled when the hero falls dead, unlike is normal media where there is. Not saying the Villain should win, just saying they have a chance, which is unlike the final results of 99.99% of such other written storylines.
That or the hero's are made with the personality of a winner and the villians are made with the personality of a loser. Look at the textbook example:Dr.Doom, Doom was disfigured because he didn't listen to Reed. Why wouldn't he do that? Do you think that it wasn't obvious that Reed was a smart guy? The answer is because Dr.Doom's insecurity's prevented him from admiting that he could be wrong. Aftet that stuff blew up in his face did he accept responsibility and learn from it? No, he displaced the blame on Reed and went on a bitter crusade or revenge, a crusade that at this point in continuity has him locked away in hell haveing lost everything he holds dear. Displaceing blame, seeking petty revenge, and not takeing responsibility are the traits of a loser, they are also the traits of Dr.Doom. The unrealistic part is that people like Doom could suceed in any major endeavor, in reality people like that spend their time in drunken stupors, complaining bitterly of the ills of society to all who will listen, and about how the man is screweing them and everyone else.
My point is villains mostly lose because they are villains, and are essentially made to lose in the end. That doesnt mean villains should be considered as lesser beings, or their power, intellect or experience held in doubt.
And I dont deify villains (as you mentioned above), my favorite characters are split down the line. Punisher, Batman, Dr. Doom, Darth Vader. If anything, I strongly support the thinking, planning, strong willed, intelligent characters, as all 4 of the above (at different levels) certainly are and thats how they get most of their powers and abilities from. (cept Vader as he has the Force obviously giving him most of his powers)
If their creators write them as characters with traits that would naturally cause them to fail then why shouldn't that be relevant?
That's 2-3 villians and an anti-hero. Darth Vader is also not intelligent, or strong willed, he killed all the people that were looking out for him over teen angst and was getting suckered by the Emperor just like the Emperor had suckered two dark jedi before him (at least) that he knew of, and yet Vader was blind to it.
Darth Vader is pretty much the commander of the entire Empire for how many years, that doesnt take intellect? And hes one of the most powerful Force Users in the history of Star Wars, that doesnt take Willpower? (Im not talking ROTS Anakin Skywalker, Im talking Veteran Darth Vader, there is a difference) Saying Darth Vader doesnt have strong willpower or high intellect is SORELY not giving him enough credit.
And as for getting suckered by the Emperor, seems Yoda and Mace were also getting such suckered treatment, so I wouldnt hold that against Anakin. Palpatine is as close to The Devil as SW has, so Anakin being converted by him (which started at age 8) shouldnt be a dig on his intellect or willpower in the slightest.
Prof. Aragorn
04/22/2005, 18:35
How arrogant is Mozenrath?
I don't quite remember the series that well, he seemed your typical sorcerer villain, but not arrogant "infallible" and Doom-like.
However I wouldn't put it past him to underestimate Vash. The only one that could really predict his moves would be Sherlock, and well, he's quite out of his league when facing off against Vash.
The teams are quite comparable when you think about it.
James Bond Jr. and Sherlock aren't your lightweight fighters, they are an asset to teams and preparation. James' gadgets are rather helpful while Sherlock's analytical skills are unmatched. However Mozenrath coupled with Serpentor's military minds of many conquerors will tend to ignore him-even if they have minor arrogance or villainness schemer to them. James will get nods from Vash and maybe Slaughter.
Serpentor is a scheming evil mastermind on the skill of Red Skull and Baron Zemo, Sgt. Slaughter is a veritable Captain America. The two will definately go for eachother here. While Serpentor is a tactical genius on par with Dracula ( ;) ), Slaughter isn't a slouch and when it comes to fighting, he fights for everything he's got.
Vash and Optimus are quite similar. Both are heroes, helpers, and friendly towards all life. Vash has the ability to dodge any attack thrown at him while Optimus large stature and durability will absorb a lot of damage thrown at him. However, this is probably not the best comparison so switch the heavyweights and superheavyweights to match.
Optimus is a giant robotic mech.
Gundam is a giant robotic mech.
Cool fight.
As for Mozenrath and Vash, Aladdin's speed bests Mozie, Vash will drop Mozenrath like a sack of potatoes.
Of course, with plotters, schemers, and planners of the likes of James Bond Jr., Sherlock Holmes, Serpentor, Sgt. Slaughter, Optimus Prime, Vash the Stampede, and Mozenrath, it's not going to be 1 on 1.
Most likely, Mozenrath will do 1 of three things:
Trash the Gundam ASAP.
Take control of the Gundam ASAP.
Aid his teammates when they head out towards battle. Scrying etc.
If he trashes the Gundam, by then Vash probably has him in his sights (especially with a mini-jet pack from JBJr.), so both teams are sans superheavyweights.
If he takes control of the Gundam, there's the Vash surprises him in the pilot room.
If he helps his teammates, Vash can take him out through stealth, speed, and skill.
Now Vash can't do all three things at once, but neither can Mozenrath. Most likely what's going to happen is Vash will pilot the mech towards the battlefield, if/when Mozie 'ports in to pilot instead, he gets taken down. Otherwise Mozenrath sits out of the jungle and tries to fry the Gundam. When the machine starts to go down, Vash just takes the pilot with him and gets out of the thing before it 'splodes. Then since he's at the battlefield already he can shoot away at the four combatants. With his speedy shooting he can hit Holmes with a rubber bullet, shoot down Serpentor's glider, distract Optimus Prime, and shoot the glove off Mozenrath's hand making him as useless as the Gundam before the other team can attack him. You also have Sarge laying cover fire and additional gadgets James Bond Jr. has.
No, being a strong force user doesn't take will power when how powerful you are in the force is directly realted to one's meticlorin count, and you have an enourmous meticlorin count. Despite the obvious that giving into the darkside is, and always has been an example of a weak will as the darkside has always been a road to fast power there are numerous examples of Anakin's lack of will:
-Anakin married Padme despite the fact that his oath as a jedi forbade such things, then justified it by takeing a scewed look at the force. Anakin defied his oath as a jedi because it was in the way of something else he wanted, he didn't have the will to make the sacrifices being a jedi entailed.
-In the Clone Wars Anakin disobeyed a driect order by his superior (Obi-Wan) in order to pursue Asajj Ventress, again defying his jedi oath to do what he wanted. In the ensueing battle he drew upon the darkside to defeat Asasjj, something else he knew was forbidden and yet he did it anyway. He made no effort to repent this act either, or even report it.
-In the Clone Wars Anakin murdered Wat Tembor when it was well in his means to capture him peacibly, he denied the Republic a valuable prisoner because he couldn't control his aggression, another sign of weak will.
-Anakin murdered all the sandpeople in a tribe despite the fact that as a jedi he isn't allowed to let his emotions rule him.
-Anakin was only able to be converted by the Emperor because Anakin let his emotions rule him and the Emperor saw it and used it against him. At the end of the day the jedi counsel allowed Anakin to be trained late, let him get away with all kinds of mess, and took him from a cesspool of a life to care for him, yet because they didn't let him move up in the ranks as fast as he wanted he felt advarsarial towards them. Those childish insecurities were all it took for the Emperor to turn him to the darkside, a path Anakin probably would have taken anyway.
-Not that I don't think that Mace and Yoda are fairly dumb, but the Emperor hideing his movements from them is hardly the same as convincing Anakin to turn on those that he owed everything to. This is compounded by the fact that then when the Emperor was in the process of trying to convert Luke, right infront of Vader's face, Vader couldn't make the connection of how freely Palpatine had thrown away his other 2 apprentices when something better came along.
-Vader was in sole control of the Empire for zero years, he was one of many high ranking officers in the organization. If you watch the origional three movies a great deal of that organization's failures can be traced back to Vader's failures.
Actually the ONLY film the Empire wins is when Vader is in control of the Empire (Empire Strikes Back). In ANH Moff Tarkin is in control, and in ROTJ the Emperor is in command, both movies the Empire LOST. Sounds like a pretty good win record for Vaders command of the Empire to me. :)
And again, Im talking Veteran Vader here, not Veteran Anakin Skywalker.
Well that and in the end of the current trilogy, when the Emperor is in total control and destroys the jedi order and establishes the Empire. What exactly did the Empire win in Empire Strikes Back? They got the Rebellion out of Hoth, but didn't stop it, and got Han Solo frozen in carbonite (thanks in no small part to Boba Fett). In the process Vader let Leia and Luke slip through his fingers and made an enemy of Lando (who would later destroy the Death Star), as a result of Vader's failure to turn or kill Luke he would have as much time as he needed to become an accomplished jedi knight (who would later prove key to destroying the empire) and the rebellion also would go on to reclaim Han. Not much of a win in my opinion, certainly not as crushing a blow as Luke and Han gave him in the first movie, or would deliver to the Empire as a whole in the second.
Vader is just Anakin more evil in armor with a scarier voice. He is still a punk who is a slave to his insecurities, and gets his jollies off of hurting people.
Shield001
04/23/2005, 18:04
personality is a big factor, and sepentor and Moz's personalitys are both flawed unfortunently and they wont get along with anyone realy unless they are incharge and another flaw of theres is overconfidence ,serpentors tried to beat slaughter and has always lost because Slaughter is a superior fighter and I am awhere of the whole Heros always (eventually ) beat villians, but even in a neutral univers slaughter whould still beat serpentor.
as far as moz turning the gundam into sand I dont think he has that kind of power. but if anyone knows forsure let us know.
now for the gundams "problems" if they fixed them in the show can we assume its the fixed most recent version that is here or the old version, it didnt realy say whichone we have.
I also dont think Sherlock (as smart as he is) can figure out how a gundam (or any other robot suit) actually works hes not a robotics expert (even the 22nd century still had to learn some things).Optomis ont the other hand might know something about robots in general but I dont think he whould do something like disable his opponent and allow his teamates to kill them thats not his character I dont think. thats the heros flaw, they dont fight dirty (most of them anyway).
Vader is just Anakin more evil in armor with a scarier voice. He is still a punk who is a slave to his insecurities, and gets his jollies off of hurting people.
I have actually killed people for less than this. :devious:
Eh, if thats how you feel about Darth Vader, then no amount of back and forth banter with me is coming close to changing your mind. To each their own I guess, no matter how night and day they may be.
Shield001
04/24/2005, 02:15
thank you, darth vader isnt even one of the guys on these teams so we shouldat least try and stick to the subject.
Wow...I come looking for some Mozenwrath action and I get a lesson on the hero vs. villain archetype in modern mythology. Vader wanted Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor...he didn't let him slip through his fingers. The guy has a heart...he couldn't kill his own son. Does that make him weak? Love for his son makes him weak?
sorry sorry sorry...I shouldn't egg Rando on...but it IS so much fun!
I don't believe for a second that Vader was really planning on overthrowing the Emperor, he told the Emperor flat out that he was going to Bespin to try and turn Luke, that we can overthrow the Emperor talk was just temptation. He didn't let him slip through his fingers huh. He chopped of his hand and watched him drop down a shaft, he then turned all focus on pursueing the Millenium Falcon, which he had no idea Luke had borded. Afterwards Luke had substantial downtime to train in the use of the force, downtime which Vader could ill aford to give him. Forgive me if I doubt Vader's compassion after maiming Luke in his attempt to turn him.
Actually, Vader WAS trying to overthrow the Emperor, and needed Lukes help to do so, which is why the Emperor unleashed Mara Jade to try and KILL Luke, at Jabbas Palace, without Vaders knowledge.
Vader could have easily killed Luke, but didnt. He wanted him to help in his overthrow of the Emperor, which is why he convinced the Emperor to NOT kill Luke but work on turning him instead.
And he did know Luke boarded the Falcon, hes sensed him through the Force, and even if he didnt, Leia and the rest would have been a huge bait for Luke anyway, as it was this first time. Either way, the Falcon is a huge prize for Vader in his quest and capture of Luke.
Hey, in the end you think Vaders an intergalactic cry baby, and I think hes one HECK of a universal level warrior and commander in every sense of the word. We differ, its cool, but youll never convince me that Vader is somehow weak willed or not very intelligent, and it seems Ill never make you see my point of view. Its all good. :)
On the matter of Vader:
Vader/Anakin's biggest flaw (as I see it) is that he is a human. He's impulsive, emotional and his enormous connection to the Force means that he's also empathic. He feels first, rather than thinks, hence his rash and impulsive nature as a Jedi. The fact that the Dark Side feeds on this part of a person made him easy prey for Palpatine.
When he was Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith this part of him was buried, burned out by the fire that is the Dark Side and it's feeding upon rage and hate. Most of his emotion was dedicated to hate, much of it turned inwardly. When he found Luke, his nature came to the fore again, he wanted to find his son. The fact that he couldn't kill him and sided with him in the end against the Emperor is all the proof we need of this.
And on topic!
Mozenrath and Serpentor aren't team players. They work about as well as Dr Doom does on a team, they want to be in charge, and rankle at anything less. That's this team's biggest flaw, and one which a smart team can and WILL exploit.
Well don't get me wrong DTM back in the day I used to love Vader. Back when his past was a little murky but menacing sounding, and when The Force was something that was actually totally learned then he was a much better character, and when people that weren't jedi actually mattered.
Then the second trilogy hit and The Force turned into a mutant power, and I got a big close look at Vader's background, and it wasn't very flattering. Darth Vader is just another casualty of the total destruction the new movies have wrought upon the Star Wars universe as a whole.
Originally posted by ca551u5
And on topic!
Mozenrath and Serpentor aren't team players. They work about as well as Dr Doom does on a team, they want to be in charge, and rankle at anything less. That's this team's biggest flaw, and one which a smart team can and WILL exploit.
Ah, but Doom HAS worked on a team when the threat was big enough and the situation called for it already (as it does here), and he HAS been a team player in such situations, not demanding the Leadership role when he has done so.
Serpentor wont be a problem, as his MW status will make him realize hes NOT going to order Prime or Mozenrath around, and hes FAR from stupid enough to throw a tantrum about being the boss of THIS grouping.
Mozenrath does have such power, but surely a being of his intellect will realize that HE NEEDS his team, or hes DEAD. And even if hes not, Im more than sure Holmes and Prime are smart enough to formulate a plan to make him think hes in the lead, when in actuality hes simply following their strategy and battle tactics.
I highly dismiss that either will sabotage their teams chances of winning because they are whinning and demanding to Be The Leader.
Originally posted by Rando
Well don't get me wrong DTM back in the day I used to love Vader. Back when his past was a little murky but menacing sounding, and when The Force was something that was actually totally learned then he was a much better character, and when people that weren't jedi actually mattered.
Then the second trilogy hit and The Force turned into a mutant power, and I got a big close look at Vader's background, and it wasn't very flattering. Darth Vader is just another casualty of the total destruction the new movies have wrought upon the Star Wars universe as a whole.
Well, I think the 20+ year gap between Anakin becoming Vader and seeing the Vader we all know and love have certainly changed him in just about every conceivable way. Darth Vader Veteran is not the same as Darth Vader Pre Rookie, as we are going to see in ROTS.
Originally posted by DTM
Well, I think the 20+ year gap between Anakin becoming Vader and seeing the Vader we all know and love have certainly changed him in just about every conceivable way. Darth Vader Veteran is not the same as Darth Vader Pre Rookie, as we are going to see in ROTS.
20+? Isn't Luke like 18?
And theres a big difference between 18 and 20? :) People dont or cant change in 18 years? Vader is a galaxy classic warrior, commander, strategist and Sith Lord, like it or not, hes not some whiny crybaby bully. :p
Prof. Aragorn
04/26/2005, 11:26
Originally posted by DTM
Serpentor wont be a problem, as his MW status will make him realize hes NOT going to order Prime or Mozenrath around, and hes FAR from stupid enough to throw a tantrum about being the boss of THIS grouping.
Does Doom's "heavyweight status" mean he should bow out from giving the commands and leading the likes of Thor, Superman, Silver Surfer, etc.?
With the tactical brains of every major conqueror in our history, Serpentor's ego is as big-if not bigger-than Doom's. He would have a hissy fit if Mozenrath started taking charge and the two would definately bicker against Optimus or Sherlock-despite how logical Sherlock is.
Serpentor did just fine when Golabulos took charge of himself and the rest of COBRA, and didnt fight him for command not once. (hissy fit, you make him sound like a child)
Serpentor is NOT going to think he can boss around Optimus Prime or Mozenrath, and hes not even going to try. Hes not stupid, and hes have to be to think he had ANY pull or leadership leverage with this two, who are much more powerful than he is. With COBRA, for which he was CREATED to be their Emperor, sure, but NOT with the team we have here.
Why is it only THIS team is having trouble with their good guy/bad guy sinergy? Seems every other such team seems to be working fine together, no in house fighting at all really. (sure they may be some hesistation, but with this team we practically have them split into 2 teams of 2). Could it be people are afraid of Team Brainiac here and are trying to put any crack in their armor that they can think of? :)
Shield001
04/26/2005, 17:24
well thats true, but serpentor was having odd dreams about Cobra la and was visited by a cobra la representitive, whom he started to attack but then rembered her from his dream, whithc convinced him that they where allies of cobra and I also think that he was incharge of the group next to Golabulos.
I just thought of a question, is there a prize for this tourney? If so what is it, because if the proze for the tourney is like the detruction of the winners enemys (in there own worlds) that whould motivate serpentor to work with the group. And moz too, the only way villians and good guys realy work well together is if they have a comon goal that is benificial to them enough that they are willing to work with each othere.
Each character fights to win as if that is their own ultimate goal, over all others (a good way to ensure each character fights to their best abilities)
Shield001
04/27/2005, 02:58
ok did not know that part, so maybe serpentor and moz whould get along but I still think tame gundam whould win even if team moz can get along
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