View Full Version : If You Are Going to Cheese What Do You Like To Go with?
Pretty simple question. If you want to use a "CHEESE" army, which would you prefer?
1) Hypersonic Team (KC Flash, Black Adam, Superman, Etc..)
Hypersonic piece surrounded with Medics, Outwit, etc....
2) Galactus
3) Lockjaw/Mastermind/Poison/Armor piercing
Multiple Lockjaws, Vipers, Jokers, with armor piercing
3) Green Lantern/Trickshot Tank Team
4) Swarm
5) Centerpiece Army (high Point figure surrounded by Con Artist, TK, Medic)
6) Wildcard Abuse
turdburglar47
10/31/2005, 06:54
How is a 'swarm' team a cheese team?
Mr.Heroclix
10/31/2005, 07:26
I agree.
Wolverine_Hulk
10/31/2005, 07:49
I just picked GL tank because that is the one I have seen least of.
Ozymandas
10/31/2005, 08:35
The problem w/ this poll is that:
1) it asumes all players have equal access to all figures &
2) it assumes players that playing in tournaments that:
-A) have great enough build totals to accomadate a figure like Galactus &
-B) Galactus isn't being house-rules against
Dark Phoenix probably should have been included, too. Maybe lumped together with Galactus. I think the question should have read "Assuming you have access to & can use any figure(s) you want to, If You Are Going to Cheese What would you Go with?
Ozymandas
10/31/2005, 08:36
oh yeah, I picked G.
Manchine
10/31/2005, 09:02
Mmmmmm Cheese!
It's only cheese if it's beating you...
Maniac_nmt
10/31/2005, 09:42
Hah hah, I don't see my all probability madness team up there. All probability all the time, no one's dying tonight but you. Oh, you hit me once in the entire game? Well take that mystic click too, and have some psychic blast right back in the face on top of it as well
ChiRocker
10/31/2005, 10:25
I picked wildcard. I've played this team before:
V ult Spider-Man + Pounce (73)*
V Silver Sable (53)*
* ICwO (20)
V mm Blade + Auto Regen (53)
V cm Daredevil (59)
V cm Elektra (26)
Alicia Masters + FF (5)
Jarvice + Tbolts (9) - KC or Ultimates usually
Deep Shadows
( R GL/Trick Shot + V HDC Trooper/Armor Piercing ) X however many the point limit will allow.
I just never called this cheese when I played it as it recreates the HDC patrol vehicles from the comics.
The big drawback I see to 'Clix is the inability to move a enough generics at one time to make them a credible threat. The strength of generics is in numbers, but you just can't move enough 20 point characters in a turn to keep them together. And yes, it is infrequent (but not unheard of) for generic figures to KO a hero in the comics. But it is frequent for them to drive a group of heroes back, implying that if they stuck around (instead of heriocally retreating), they would have gone down.
I probably would consider a R Wasp/T-Bolts 2 GL mover cheesy (an exploitation of the rules that does not maintain "comic realism"). But not when I pay 101 points for the GL/TS tank. That means 1 combat vehicle = 5 men (or 3 with AP).
Besides, two attacks at decent range with 2 damage and Willpower just screams for AP!
Semper Caseus :nervous:
Darth Sabre
10/31/2005, 11:05
I went with Wildcard abuse. I like W/C abuse the best out of the "Cheese" teams, because you still have to play strategically to win, and your team can vary, instead of being flavor of the week.
Though for the last two Regionals I 've attended; I have taken a GL Tank team and a Superman team (also took my W/C abuse team cause I was indecisive).
cpt_kirstov
10/31/2005, 11:30
I chose GL tank team, because when I first got GL i started making a list of everyone he KO'd by himself - with one figure per line it was over a page and a half before GL got KO'd in a game for the first time
Vegeto25
10/31/2005, 11:47
I wasn't going to post just because I hate people referring to aspects of the game as "cheese". I voted for HSS abuse simply because there are more characters with HSS that I like, making it more likely I would run a team of that nature.
I agree with the earlier post: How is a swarm team considered cheese? In the right hands a swarm team can be brutal, but I think that swarms aren't as easy to run. I take cheese as being a piece or strategy that is almost idiot proof. If a new guy night player showed up a week later with a Vet Superman team he could be a contender. If he showed up with a Swarm team or even a LAMP team he's not as likely to be competetive because those types of teams take a lot more thought and effort.
Ignatz_Mouse
10/31/2005, 11:55
Forgetting the baggage that comes from the word "cheese," I do tend toward wildcard abuse above all else. I like to leverage effective combos of tema abilities, and the wildcards are a natural extension of that.
I hate Disbanded.
But, even so, I build so that I can survive it. I won a tournament yesterday with a lot of WCs on my team, even though Disbanded was played against me once.
My team from Yesterday (unrestricted, all characters much belong to "evil" teams, which included Mystics, Darkness in effect for all games, 400 points)
LE Etrigan + ICWO
R Taskmaster
R Mr Freeze + Trick Shot + ICWO
E Jinx
E Doombot
V Intergang Medic
LE Electra
R Scarlet Witch (FF)
R Avalanche
So is that Swarm, Wildcard Abuse, or Dual-Barrier cheese?
Oh, and R Freeze and R Taskmaster make a great, great combo.
coyotejack
10/31/2005, 11:57
I have to take Wildcard Abuse as well. I play theme teams but when I was getting started in the game I'd consistantly use Taskmaster and Abbey Chase on my teams along with one or two other wildcards. Guess that's the closest to WC Abuse cheese I've had.
phantom1592
10/31/2005, 12:43
Got to go GL tank. I don't consider it cheese in any way. GL-Hal is my favorite character, along with Daredevil. I rarely ever play a game without one or both of them on the team.
CowboyBebop
10/31/2005, 12:44
I am new to all this, could someone give me a quick run down of how wildcard and LAMP work, please.
ludd_gang
10/31/2005, 12:54
How is a 'swarm' team a cheese team?
Ditto. I mean, a team that needs flat Avengers/Bro-hood/Top Cow/JLA and multiple occurences of Leadership hardly screams abuse. :laugh:
I went with Wildcard abuse. I like W/C abuse the best out of the "Cheese" teams, because you still have to play strategically to win, and your team can vary, instead of being flavor of the week.
Ditto.
Ignatz_Mouse
10/31/2005, 12:55
Wildcard abuse isn't a particular trick, but rather a category of uses. It's easily spotted because of the inclusion of characters for no particular reason but to copy their team ability. Certain teams have an especially cheap member that seems to show up on these teams. For instance, Alicia Masters token for FF team ability, or Alfred for Batman team ability. Or Jarvis (or other cheap Avengers) with the Thunderbolts ability. Or Zatanna Zatara for Mystics.
Pretty standard fare for WC abuse are Mystics, Fantastic Four (with the alternate ability feat), Ultimates, one of the free-move abilities, and Batman Ally. Superman Enemy and PD/Hydra are less common, but show up occasionally.
In my above example, I manage to have Mystics, Brotherhood (free move), Hydra, Superman Enemy, and Batman Enemy, and used them all extensively.
ludd_gang
10/31/2005, 12:56
I am new to all this, could someone give me a quick run down of how wildcard and LAMP work, please.
Wildcard uses spritzes of several teams to give the wildcards a gazzillion options.
LAMP is Lockjaw + Armor Peircing + Poison + Mastermind. Lockjaws is a transporter damage sponge for the poisoner to Mastermind on, while the poison slowly eats up foes with Armor Peircing.
I went with Wildcards, and put me down as another who finds that "cheese" and "abuse" are terms used far too freely.
If one's paying the points for a piece just to copy their TA, then that's the player's decision and their own points they're spending. Dr. Strange should be able to detect stealthed characters (Ultimates), remain undetected by most if he chooses (Batman/Kabuki), pass through objects at will (Serpent Society), carry multiple teammates (Green Lantern), move life force around between himself and someone else (Teen Titans/X-men), etc. and while it would be against his character he should be able to create a spell to reciprocate damage on an attacker. That he (and many other pieces) don't have abilities in clix form that they should have is a design deficiency, and if he can draw on those as a result of a team I've assembled then that's good. Daredevil and Spiderman should be able to do some of the same - detect hidden things and be able to hide in hindering, be able to get up and down walls at will and often get in and out of buildings when there doesn't appear to be an obvious access.
Yes, I understand that people complain because of both some of the combinations that don't immediately make sense and the way a wildcard can gain a power over its entire dial that would cost much more if the character actually had that TA... but I really can't say that that bothers me. The game is rife with inequities, and I'll be in favor of something that allows me to better use a character as he should be able to work than I will to limit him in order to prevent someone else from getting some ability he wouldn't normally have.
I guess it's like that old saw about justice, and whether or not one's more worried about a guilty party going free than he is about an innocent man being executed. I'd rather the guilty party be on the streets, forcing me to deal with him in another fashion.
I chose Wildcard Abuse simply for the fact that I like playing Heroes for Hire/Marvel Knights... and with Moon Knight having the Avengers TA and Spidey with the FF TA - there is fun to be had!
If you are going for Cheese,
why not go for the best?
Galactus!
Who will beat you?
Is a swarm Army cheese/
how so?
Wolverine_Hulk
10/31/2005, 16:01
Why isn't there double barrier cheese?
I took my wife to New Guy Night and she has already mastered wild card abuse. Every time we play now, she makes sure she has a few wild card characters. Her favorite is Wildfire with either a superman ally or ultimates character.
At least it got her off of hypersonic abuse.
shock man x
10/31/2005, 18:01
I love a good old H-Bomb Thor team. It's my "power team" of choice.
I like the Tank too, but haven't gotten it to work yet.
Why isn't there double barrier cheese?
Because using two barrier figures is just compensation for the lameness of the barrier power..?
:nervous:
Hypersonic(not Superman), wildcarding, and green lantern tanking are all fun. I chose Hypersonic because The Flash is my Fvorite comic book character.
I dressedup as Jay Garrick when I took my brothers Trick or Treating today. Nobody Knew who I was. I was even accused of not dressing up. (I couldn't find a Pie Pan to use as a helmet.
docpound
10/31/2005, 21:48
I love the GL army cheese though I don't use GL I use Hawkeye and slap about 45 points of cards on him, little trick shot, ICWO, force feild, T-bolts to make him GL and there you have it the only member of marvel who is capable of running the GL cheese team. 11 attack with toughness five damage with RCE 16 D with energy sheild and he's carrying a medic and some prob control if you want to be really mean slap on an armor piercing three bolts? or fortitude though he's only six deep so don't throw him to the wolves! so fun to play becasue you can carry a medic with you and push becasue he's got such a low defense you can heal him right back up. Now where is his power ring?
JKLantern
10/31/2005, 22:42
Send In The Masses! Release The Meatshields! Fire!
Joe Kerr
11/01/2005, 00:47
I like to play Galactus. He most reminds me of the Dark Carnival. He's the real 6th!
turdburglar47
11/01/2005, 06:56
To further my point about "swarm" teams - calling a swarm team 'cheese' means that an all-Skrull team or an all Hydra or SHIELD team is cheese.
I love the GL army cheese though I don't use GL I use Hawkeye and slap about 45 points of cards on him, little trick shot, ICWO, force feild, T-bolts to make him GL and there you have it the only member of marvel who is capable of running the GL cheese team.
E Wasp (Universe) + Thunderbolts Feat (GL) =
19 + 5 =
24 points
Ditto. I mean, a team that needs flat Avengers/Bro-hood/Top Cow/JLA and multiple occurences of Leadership hardly screams abuse. :laugh:
OK. Now I know what a swarm cheese team is.
I voted for GL tank, because I felt a little guilty as it bordered on my definition of cheese -- HDC troopers never (AFAIK) got carried around by GLC members. But they did have assault craft with big guns on them. So I never felt too guilty...
But swarm team cheese? My fave example of that is my 50+ Hawkmen/Hawkgirl in a little box labeled "The Hordes of Thrangar." I have played mostly JLA Hawkman/Hawkgirl, with a smattering of others Thrangarians at the 300, 400, and 500 point levels. Never considered that cheese. Never got it called cheesy, even when it won a tourney.
docpound
11/01/2005, 10:50
E Wasp (Universe) + Thunderbolts Feat (GL) =
19 + 5 =
24 points
She's only four clix's deep and does two damage, that doesn't deserve a power ring! lol great job now I've gotta paint up some extra wasp's to join the corps.
She's only four clix's deep and does two damage, that doesn't deserve a power ring! lol great job now I've gotta paint up some extra wasp's to join the corps.
I certainly wouldn't expect Wasp to hang in the battle. But if I wanted a cheap way to carry 8 good combat pieces in a 600-800 point game, she costs less than eight individual personal jetpacks ... er R (IC) Vultures. I would expect to keep her behind the real figs and push the snot out of her to gain mobility even at the expense of dropping the whole 24 points. Dropping 24 points would definitely be worth the mobility I would get out of 8 GL carry actions (if I could get all 8) in 12 turns.
On a different topic... I bought a handful of Star Wars and D&D miniature "common" pieces and painted them up to make my GLC. I play them on various GL (Sinestro, Jade, and Obsidian, too) bases. They look really cool.
Smaug317
11/01/2005, 15:03
I love cheese.
docpound
11/01/2005, 15:14
I certainly wouldn't expect Wasp to hang in the battle. But if I wanted a cheap way to carry 8 good combat pieces in a 600-800 point game, she costs less than eight individual personal jetpacks ... er R (IC) Vultures. I would expect to keep her behind the real figs and push the snot out of her to gain mobility even at the expense of dropping the whole 24 points. Dropping 24 points would definitely be worth the mobility I would get out of 8 GL carry actions (if I could get all 8) in 12 turns.
On a different topic... I bought a handful of Star Wars and D&D miniature "common" pieces and painted them up to make my GLC. I play them on various GL (Sinestro, Jade, and Obsidian, too) bases. They look really cool.
Five points add double time to hawkeye and now you can move 20 spaces
Wild-card abuse is the cheddar. Ah, Exp (IC) Ultron carrying Exp Black Cat.
Five points add double time to hawkeye and now you can move 20 spaces
Yeah, but I still like Wasp as the "exploit the rules" piece. At 24 points including Feat card, she's cheaper than a high-end Feat card alone. I can field two of them at the cost of a moderately effective combat piece. Plus, she's more disposable than a Feat card. If they KO all my other figures, they still don't get Wasp. If they go after Wasp to take her out, they're wasting 1 action of a 5+ damage figure on something I was mainly relying on for initial positioning.
Hawkeye clocks in @ 61 + 5 =66 points (or 71 if you want to doubletime). Even in a 500 point game, I expect to get some combat power out of a ~70 point figure. If I'm going to spend that much, I would much rather R (CJ) GL + Trick Shot. In for a penny, in for a pound.
Maybe if you used Hawkeye with Transporter Attack, placing your figures so he was a double base meat shield. You could TS Hawkeye, too, but he only has 2 clix of RCE...
hail_eris
11/01/2005, 17:48
I can't vote until you add a "There is no cheese" option...
Wolverine_Hulk
11/01/2005, 17:52
Provolone.
Darth Sabre
11/01/2005, 18:13
Provolone.
With Pastrami! :classic:
I was wondering why people call LAMP cheese. Do you know why? LAMP was built to make the poison theme teams work. It's just effective because back in Legacy time frame you have Black Adam with a very high mobility and running strategy. In order for the flyers who carries poison figure work is to follow black adam. The introduction of Lockjaw gave or pave way into improving a theme base team to work more efficiently. Around 2004, I started playing Hypertime Joker, Clayface, Poison Ivy and Green Lantern as my carrier. Green Lantern phases to the opposing team. Joker gets hit. He masterminds to Clayface who then gets poison. Now you are taking 2 clicks of poison. Hit Joker again then he masterminds to poison Ivy now you are getting 3 clics of poison. The problem with that team. Not a lot of mobility againts people with Fortitude and HSS. The introduction of LockJaw improves that team a lot especially my regionals team of Hypertime Joker, Booster Gold, Manbat and Hawkgirl. I used those flyers for one reason, a lot of clicks and 10 movement. When they introduce Lockjaw with 6~8 clicks of life with movement more than 10. Guess what I did. I just substitute my original theme team with Lockjaws and I do not need to worry about Crosswinds. I do not think this is a cheese team. It takes great strategy to build a theme team that works. It's like in Magic the Gathering you already have a theme deck and when a better card comes out then you just sub your weaker card with the new card but you still play the same theme strategy. I guess the DEFINITION of CHESSE in HCREALMS is using a set of figures that normally wins tournaments. If you do play winning combination then you are definitely using CHEESE. I still think that LAMP theme teams are developed by the introduction of armor piercing. Without that card, nobody will be able to play the LAMP team as effective as how they play nowadays. THE REAL CHEESE IS ARMOR PIERCING. Now another Cheese card is Armor Wars (A thug can even damage Superman). With the introduction of deeper dial figures, Mastermind powers became more powerful. It's just how you play clicks in strategy. You are suppose to play the powers in clix the way you are suppose to play it. Mastermind power is to spread out your damage to all the weakling figures you have. Have you ever played a themed team with Dr. Doom Vet Clobberin Time and a bunch of Doombots (no other team abilities). You will still win because Dr. Doom will just crush all your opponents members while he sponges all the damage to him towards his minions. I do not think LAMP is cheese. I think it's just the card armor piercing and Fortitude. But those cards are brought here so that figures like Superman may be played. Back then Batman can just ripped Superman Apart with Fortitude figures can be played more. With all the feat cards available you can make a simple Universe Spiderman into a wrecking ball.
Dexmark,
I didn't read all of what you said because it was seriously way too long. I personally have no problem with a single LAMP on a team. It's when people stick multiple LAMPs together that I believe little strategy and imagination was put into the team.
Example:
2.Daniel Shuler
E Viper x2 with Armor Piercing
R Viper with Armor Piercing
R Lockjaw x3 with Double-Time
E Lockjaw with Double-Time
R Black Panther
V Paramedic
Thats 3 LAMPs! Along with Double-Time this team was obviously built to get the Vipers next to or at least in range of their target to blow them away. Saying this team wasn't "cheese" would ruin your credibility.
I voted for HSS because I recently got my V Supes and he's itching for some action. Although I won't be using TK because I believe that is weak.
A swarm is not "cheese," unless its a swarm of Mystic MJ's, like the one that took down Galactus. Seriously, a Bystander team defeating Galactus!
My definition of "cheese" is something that would prevent your opponents from ever nominating you for Fellowship. ;)
A swarm is not "cheese," unless its a swarm of Mystic MJ's, like the one that took down Galactus. Seriously, a Bystander team defeating Galactus!
Did he forget that Galactus has Pulse Wave?
The only way that Galactus gets beat is by the controlling Player not playing him correctly,
or by insane (out of the Ordinary) Dice Rolls.
Maybe they managed to base him by then. What would you do for your first clicks if you had to face an MJ Mystic swarm army? Getting to the real Mystic behind an unreal number of MJ's is not always feasible. I'm glad those unholy pogs are retired now.
hail_eris
11/02/2005, 12:58
Getting to the real Mystic behind an unreal number of MJ's is not always feasible.
Nor is it even a factor anymore. Wildcards can keep the TA of a KOed piece for the remainder of the game provided they don't switch to another one. (See latest FAQ.)
What a loaded question.
Cheap, cheese, and broken are words used by people that dont win.
Why do the winning teams have to be cheese or cheap? They're just good teams.
If all paramaters of the game are changed so that these teams cannot exist then what? A new winning team format will emerge and will that be cheese? Then what if that is taken away? How far do you go?
I think I'm just most upset because since I've been coming here I assumed that HC realms was a nuetral forum where the game could be examined and discussed. But I come to the site today and I see on the front page a question that implies that people should not be using winning teams and then if you do you are using a team that is cheesy.
What a loaded question.
Cheap, cheese, and broken are words used by people that dont win.
I wish we all had your cool, neutral, lack of judgmentalism. :p
Legion-of-Doom
11/02/2005, 19:26
My favorite (and only, since I usually play themes) cheese team. I only bring this beast out for high profile turnys. Its 13-0 all time for me:
V Green Lantern (Unleashed) w/trick shot
R Destiny
R Conartist
V U-men x2
V Havok
E Paramedic
E Blac Panther
LE Sue Storm (Crit Mass puck)
I just have GL taxi everyone around keeping BP, Sue, and Havok in the front row.
hulkamania85
11/02/2005, 22:36
Going for wild card abuse.
Forgetting the baggage that comes from the word "cheese," I do tend toward wildcard abuse above all else. I like to leverage effective combos of tema abilities, and the wildcards are a natural extension of that.
I hate Disbanded.
But, even so, I build so that I can survive it. I won a tournament yesterday with a lot of WCs on my team, even though Disbanded was played against me once.
My team from Yesterday (unrestricted, all characters much belong to "evil" teams, which included Mystics, Darkness in effect for all games, 400 points)
LE Etrigan + ICWO
R Taskmaster
R Mr Freeze + Trick Shot + ICWO
E Jinx
E Doombot
V Intergang Medic
LE Electra
R Scarlet Witch (FF)
R Avalanche
So is that Swarm, Wildcard Abuse, or Dual-Barrier cheese?
Oh, and R Freeze and R Taskmaster make a great, great combo.
It's In Contact With (fill in name here) abuse. The one that was left off of the list because almost everyone does it but nobody wants to acknowledge it is pure Velveeta!!
In Contact is like the wierd Uncle of Heroclix...Everybody uses it but no one wants to talk about the problem. :o
It's In Contact With (fill in name here) abuse. The one that was left off of the list because almost everyone does it but nobody wants to acknowledge it is pure Velveeta!!
In Contact is like the wierd Uncle of Heroclix...Everybody uses it but no one wants to talk about the problem. :o
That's because the idea of cheese also assumes some concept of violating comic reality as part of the definition of cheese. A lot of people deny this, but if they consider WC abuse cheese, when asked about a team that is fairly well known from the comics that would otherwise fit a given cheese tactic definition, they say "no."
Oracle is not the only comic figure that provides that type of support. Is it cheesy to play In Contact with Silicon Valerie?
My favorite (and only, since I usually play themes) cheese team. I only bring this beast out for high profile turnys. Its 13-0 all time for me:
V Green Lantern (Unleashed) w/trick shot
R Destiny
R Conartist
V U-men x2
V Havok
E Paramedic
E Blac Panther
LE Sue Storm (Crit Mass puck)
I just have GL taxi everyone around keeping BP, Sue, and Havok in the front row.
Actually, I don't think that team would be considered "cheese." Yes you are using a very strong combination of figures, but at least GL isn't carrying around 8 Destinies/8 Con Artists/8 Bystanders. I find the line of cheese crossed when you go from a strong combination to just playing crappy pieces for utility.
Do I find the new FF TA cheese? Not really, I've beaten it and been beaten by it. It's powerful without a doubt, but I don't really find it cheap and stupid. Now if somebody played Sue Storm LE, and the rest of the team was Human Torch to abuse the possible 21 ranged defense along with Armor Piercing so getting next to them would hurt too, then yes I would call that cheese.
Do I find Thor or Superman "cheese?" No, I don't. You play a high point figure you get what you payed for. Thor/Superman getting a TK boost from somebody like Jean Grey? That's right on the line. Superman getting TK'ed out attacking and running back? CHEESE!
I love how op1983 is offended by players finding things cheesy. Neutral? Hell no, we all have our own opinions. Isn't it being not neutral, if everybody agreed with each other and all had one opinion? That would be one-sided. If you want to go examine and discuss the game why don't you go to an actual thread instead of whining about a simple poll.
Do I find Thor or Superman "cheese?" No, I don't. You play a high point figure you get what you payed for. Thor/Superman getting a TK boost from somebody like Jean Grey? That's right on the line. Superman getting TK'ed out attacking and running back? CHEESE!
I like the implication that it's not just who is on the team that is cheesy, but the way you use the figures. It would be hard to say that GL and Supes on the same team was cheesy, i.e. done for pure exploitation of what is on the dials. Would you still consider GL TKing Supes for an HSS hit-and-run to be cheese? This really didn't happen in the comics.
What about GL TKing Supes out of danger? That does happen in the comics!
I like the implication that it's not just who is on the team that is cheesy, but the way you use the figures. It would be hard to say that GL and Supes on the same team was cheesy, i.e. done for pure exploitation of what is on the dials. Would you still consider GL TKing Supes for an HSS hit-and-run to be cheese? This really didn't happen in the comics.
What about GL TKing Supes out of danger? That does happen in the comics!
Using TK and HSS in order to attack and runaway is cheese. HSS already gives ranged figures ridiculous potential to attack with impunity, adding TK to ensure safety is just childish.
GL could technically be seen as an exploitation since after he threw Supes he still has the ability to hold up a defense since he's got Willpower. As for throwing him out of danger? Nah, that's just smart if he's getting that much of a beating that he would need to be TKed.
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