Are Feats and Battle Field Conditons changing the game too much?

[rock810]

With some FANTASTIC new feats being previewed and Battle Field Conditions to come, do you feel that the game is changing too dramatically? Or are you one of the people that think it is great for the game, or do you not really even care?

[rock810]

Personally, I feel feats and BFC's add to the game greatly. They are an extra dynamic that make the game truely strategized. They help to prevent any one figure (other than Veteran Superman and Galactus) from dominating the game entirely. Give me more feats and BFC's please....

[krusticlese]

Personally I love feats, the new Flash Bang card being a personal favorite ;) .

However, I am concerned that the game may be progressing past the point where a casual gamer or new player could get into it easily. But with the feats we've seen previewed so far from CD, they seem to be simple game effects with simple text, which leaves far less interpretation room.

I'd like to see simplicity in all future feats to keep the game accessable to new players.

[andrewtarius]

I like 'em. It adds to the game, more than just having powers, but you have special attacks and add on to the powers.


Don't forget, Objects we will see the new Object cards tomorrow!

[clixer11]

I love them

but

some cards have been worded inaccurately/unclearly, and if the mechanic being introduced becomes too complex, then it should be reconsidered or simplified before release.

I love Tbolts and AltFF, but a great deal of hassle, and in some folk's opinion a great deal of abuse was created when Wildcards were allowed to copy the ATA.

[Citizen Nero]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I love them

but

some cards have been worded inaccurately/unclearly, and if the mechanic being introduced becomes too complex, then it should be reconsidered or simplified before release.


-That's pretty much the way I feel about them. Some have helped the game, others have just made it worse and more complicated.

[Shazam!!]

When every last team uses at least one card, that should tell you something...

[Darth Sabre]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I love them

but

some cards have been worded inaccurately/unclearly, and if the mechanic being introduced becomes too complex, then it should be reconsidered or simplified before release.


-That's pretty much the way I feel about them. Some have helped the game, others have just made it worse and more complicated.


Exactly!

[SuperGENE]

Feat cards are great! BFCs I could go either way on - I prefer adding to the game rather than nerfing what's already there.

I'd like for all cards to be tested more thoroughly before printing. Too many of these cards were erratad to the point where all the text has to be changed. They should be simple, get to the point, and not leave openings for so many questions.

[ohoni]

I voted "yrs", because I do think BFCs go FAR too far, but I do love Feat cards, and would hate to see them go anywhere. BFCs have to either go, or seriously change though, they shouldn't neuter teams.

[PenAgain]

I'm there with you-

I love Feats. And Pogs. But BFCs drive me kinda bonkners. My hope is that we continue to see fewer of them, with less dramatic effects. They pretty much only see action in my world as scenario components any way...

--PenAgain
Still loves WarXorn though...

[olcottr]

Love the feats, but not too crazy about the Battlefield Conditions. Some can just totally kill a team.

[saturnflight]

I think the, "This game is too complex for newbies" argument is lame.
You can still introduce and teach the basics very easily. The cards can be played without still, and they do explain themselves. But mostly, wouldn't it be sad if this game never got to a higher plateau? If that simple overview you learned initially was all the deeper the game ever got? I think games should be stratified, with an entry level (the quick start rules), a medium level (the rulebook), and an advanced level (cards, erratas, special rules figs).
No one griped about the Sentinel's mass of rules, and he's still one of the most complex rule additions in the game. Forget what ICWO does and if Atlantis Rising beats Astral Plane, I wanna know if the Sentinel's immune to every power Reed Richards has!

[lchestnut81]

Well, I have benn playing for a while, and I thought that BFC' and feats were gonna screw up the game, but I am happy to say that I liked them after I saw some of the great things you could do with them. Are they dominating the game? I can't say for sure. Cards like Fortitude and Protected have definetely tipped the balance a few times, but that doesn't mean there is no way around them. They just make me think a little more when I build my teams, but also, I have access to the same cards my opponents do, so it can't make it that unbalnced.

[Smaug317]

I like feats alot, however bfcs are another thing, I don't LOVE them and I don't HATE them. I guess I am in the middle of the road.

[Olympian]

With the cards, it's very important to play games with them and play games without them.

It's amazing the different people you'll use.

[2Face]

I think Feats and BFCs are wonderful and add more variety to the game. I also think that Heroclix can be difficult for new players to master. The basic rules are rather simple, but the Feats and BFCs essentially each provide an exception to the standard rules. However, without these periodic changes, I think that the game would eventually become stale because there are only so many powers and combinations available. While difficult for new players to learn, the Feats and BFCs are great for players who have been playing for longer. The Feats allow for new powers and combinations to be introduced without having to create new powers on the dials and creating new powers that severly overpower previous characters. The Feats work just as well on the old figures as on the new, so you can still play your favorite character.

Basically: Can be bad for new players but good for old players.

[DareDevil_13]

I'm in the middle of the road. While I don't care much of the cheesy tactics that have come around, It has added a new dimension to the game.

[balanceathart]

People complain that alot of the feats are broken and this and that. most of those feats are meant to be for certain teams. It is the player's choice to abuse the card or not. ICWO for thematic reasons should go with a JLA or Batman team. I can understand using it for marvel if you're play and X-men team or a shield team since Marvel Does not have a card that ICWO.


Playing T-bolts card should be fun if you're doing a T-bolt team(we still need more of the new guys though) again, its really up to the person play the card. Do I want to have a theme team or just a better chance at winning?

[JKLantern]

Mmm, pizza...

[sayanything11]

Overall, I like the feat and BFC cards. (I find Protected annoying, but I am not claiming there is anything "borken" with it..)

It does make it even MORE difficult to get new people playing though... like the constant rule changes don't alienate enough people... :tired:

I pretty much have to introduce people to heroclix w/o any cards, then, when they have a firm grasp on that - begin introducing the cardboard. With each new set, every other month, keeping track of all the rules and cards can be daunting - even for someone who has been playing over three years.

[ThePieMan]

I'm in the middle of the road. While I don't care much of the cheesy tactics that have come around, It has added a new dimension to the game.
I agree 100%

[Wolverine_Hulk]

I'm in the middle of the road

[Gorrack]

Well, I am a HUGE fan of Feats for this game. I thinkt he game NEEDED to go that direction, as it helps to add more flavor to the game, and it helps to make any character a bit more viable and lets you make up for certain characters shortcomings. ( ICWO if the attack/damage is a bit too low, Fort. if you are a huge brick etc ). It also helps give Wizkids easy outs for any problems or inbalances that arise. It let them go back and make large figs more viable ( fort etc ) and it can also make easy splashable silver bullets for problem figs in the future. This is GREAT for the game.

BF conditions, on the other hand, are AWFUL. Feats expand the game, and let more figures be viable, and offer new strategies. BFCs KILL strategies and figures, all while making it completely luck based. Winning or losing a tournament based solely on whether someone was forced to use up a certain BFC in a prior matchup is ridiculous. BFCs have such huge effects that generally the game isn't even won by the opposing team, but the BFC itself, and THAT isn't healthy for the game. They are GREAT for fun teams, to play under a certain condition, but for skilled games, why throw a ridiculous amount of luck into it? ( You already have dice...you can make even a minimal effort to showcase skill wizkids, please? ) BFCs simply add to horribly lopsided games where one player is simply not even legitimately left in the game. THATS not healthy. BFCs were one of the main reasons I quit the game. I play every now and than for fun, and I try to snag a few of my fav figs, but I used to buy a case or so of each set, now I pretty much just play a pre release and trade for what I want, and don't even play with the new figs. Feats are doing a great job expanding the game,a nd I really like the new figure selection, but BFCs are REALLY bad for the game, and its almost impossible to undo what was done short of banning older cards.

[denhamkarl]

I don't really mind playing Feat's and BFC's but when it takes the fun out of the game then I can't stand them. When you get together to play a friendly game with someone and they pull out their BIGGEST GUN and play Fortitude, ICWO, Repulsor Shield, Nanobots, Protected..., then it becomes a game of I win and you lose because I'm playing a 200 point piece with 5000 points worth of feats on him!!! I can't stand it!!!
And when that happens it makes a once great game not fun to play anymore. Don't get me wrong because I'll always play Heroclix but sometimes I just get discouraged with those kinds of tactics.
But I guess I can't complain because those tactics can win tournaments and can also be a sign that someone has actually sat down and came up with a combo that will work each and everytime they play. So I don't know I guess I'm middle of the road one minute and the next I love Feat's and BFC and then the next minute I hate them. Call it what you will!?!?!?

[SpakSpang]

I really love the Battle Field Conditions and some of the feat cards.

However, many of the feats seem like they are fixing or updating powers instead of just well updating the powers in the rule book.

For example: Flashbang. This didn't need to be a new card, they could have just changed the rules for this, and it would have been cool.

Even cards like Ambush could have just been ruled to work.

Stealthed attacker get a +1 attack value when they attack in hindering terrain, however this attack cancels their stealth for one turn.

I like this idea much better than the card, because if someone attacks then your team should be able to react. "Did you see that shot from the bushes over there?" "Yeah, I bet somebody is there!"

Then some cards become necessary for making clicks playable, and you have to start collecting them to become competitive. ANNOYING.

So, yeah I like what Wizkids is doing with Battlefield conditions, and some of the feats, but others are really frustrating that they don't just change the rules.

(One time, or One use Feats are the best kind of feats, and I would rather see more of these. Feats should be something special that a character does once instead, of changing the very nature of how a character reacts and plays.)

[Harker2000]

I voted for the cardboard, I like being able to play clix of my favorite characters and stil be competitive. I play a lot of 3/4 player games and multiple BFCs in those games make for agrevation or fun. For every cheese team there should be an antidote though, so I don't mind disbanded being put against my thunderbolts...as long as it isn't every game!

[phantom1592]

One of the biggest drawbacks of this game has been the 4 stats/ with 4 powers. This is the be all and end all of the character. Feat help change that. Now Daredevil's L/C may be different from Batman's L/C. At least today. It's a way of adding NEW powers to a game, without making all the old figures completely obsolete.

I love them.

BFCs however, Ehhh, Don't care for them at all.

[dj_sha]

I think Feats are great, but I think they need to tone down or stop the BFC's. Too many of those and it'll just become way too much to deal with. Not to mention how many of these BFC's neuter entire teams, which I find even more annoying. Either they stop making BFC's or they only make fun ones (though who would play those when you can play Poor Teamwork or Disbanded?).

Also, no more insanely good feat cards, like ICWO or Protected. I'd like more feat cards that enhance otherwise useless powers and TA's (more alternate TA's would rock), not ones that break the game. The whole point of feats are to make crappy figures good. The only saving grace of feats is that they're optional.

[dernjg]

However, many of the feats seem like they are fixing or updating powers instead of just well updating the powers in the rule book.

For example: Flashbang. This didn't need to be a new card, they could have just changed the rules for this, and it would have been cool.

Even cards like Ambush could have just been ruled to work.

Stealthed attacker get a +1 attack value when they attack in hindering terrain, however this attack cancels their stealth for one turn.



Here I have to disagree with you. Making the actually powers more complicated is a big mistake, as it draws away from the simplicity that is the basic foundation of this complex game.
In spirit, the beauty of heroclix is that the powers and stats are all kept on a fairly easy to read dial. For this to stay in some form of reality, the powers must be kept simple.
For complicated attacks like ambush, adding another long, drawn-out rule that won't always be used isn't a good idea. Using a feat forces you to have a nice piece of cardboard with the rule printed on it, so you don't have to look up it's exact wording to remember if it's a +1 or +2, or what type of action it takes, and is it a modifier or a replacement value.

[MadMav]

Hate to be a fence sitting but I really am middle of the road on this. Some I love, som I hate but when in Rome.....

[jtphoto]

I love the addition of cards. It adds a new dimension for some of us old players to change the game a bit. I say keep them coming.

[Granite Moose]

First-time post from a long-time lurker who loves this site. Speaking as someone who recently started playing the game, I find that the cards add a nice dimension to the game although they do increase the learning curve. I only play the game with friends and family which probably adds to my troubles learning the intricacies of the game. I do like how the cards are helping bring the lesser utilized powers more to the forefront of the game.

[DroidMaster]

When every last team uses at least one card, that should tell you something...

All the way, personaly I cant stand them. I wish they would stop making them, or at least that we could do some turnoments without them.

[tyroclix]

Feats and BFC's complicate the game.

As a player who has been here since mid-way through Clobberin' Time - I think they are the greatest addition to the game since NAAT.

But you really have to know the rules to incorporate them into your game...

Poll-wise -- I'm not sure what to vote for. I don't understand 2/3 of the choices...

[tyroclix]

Poll-wise -- I'm not sure what to vote for. I don't understand 2/3 of the choices...

Nevermind. The misspelled "to" in choice #2 threw me...

[pseudosoldier]

I don't think that they're changing the game "too much," although it's impossible to argue that they aren't changing the game at all. This game needs to evolve, and I enjoy seeing it do so in all formats, Constructed, Sealed and Unrestricted.

Every Sealed environment can be different, not just because of the figures included, but what cards are available.

Constructed has the rotations already built in to keep the format from being stagnant, but Unrestricted can appreciate the additive of some cardboard to bring freshness to old, rarely-used characters.

Variety is the spice of life, and change brings innovation... I love the cardboard, and I think they're keeping it at the right amount (only two BFCs is an interesting choice, I think!).

[Gargantua]

I like them, especially when they're used specifically to fix problems. FFATA to address the original TA being too expensive. Trick Shot to counter a Stealth-heavy environment. Stunning Blow making Incapacitate more viable, to name a few examples.

[SoulessSleep]

I voted for the thumbs up on the feat and battle field conditions, even though I'm not sure what they "add too the game" means. Add to the game I can understand.

[chonk34]

I'm not a big fan of all the cards. Pogs are okay, but I don't like the rest of the cardboard.

[RedDragon]

I voted for the cardboard, I like being able to play clix of my favorite characters and stil be competitive. I play a lot of 3/4 player games and multiple BFCs in those games make for agrevation or fun. For every cheese team there should be an antidote though, so I don't mind disbanded being put against my thunderbolts...as long as it isn't every game!


i agree i love both. BFC help put down cheese teams. so i think they are a impotant part of the game. and foe every card there is counter to it. you don't like BFC this use ordinary day. its as easy aqs that. i mean you use it once and you only have to face one more card the rest of the day. that is if you are playing 3 round tournments. like we do it our venue.

[DBZMagus]

Put me in the popular camp that loves feat cards, and HATES BFCs. Last week at my venue we decided to start putting all our BFCs in a pile and using them randomly. I think this might help a little, though I'd still rather just stop using them entirely.

[ohoni]

i agree i love both. BFC help put down cheese teams. so i think they are a impotant part of the game.

I think that reducing cheese teams is a good thing, but that BFCs are a horrible way to od that. If a team is cheesy, permanent changes should be made, to make playing it impossible or not as successful. BFCs catch a lot of innocent characters and teams in the crossfire, and are so random that you never know when your team might be gimped, or might be left completely alone. No well constructed team (constructed without taking BFCs into account), should ever be completely hosed by the playing of a BFC. Key abilities should be left intact.

[Briel]

Feats are the best thing to happen to this game. They allow us to make the characters more true to their comic book selves, instead of generic copies of one another.

My favorite combo being Power Girl with Armor Piercing. She's always going to do something, and it's ore realistic than kicking her damage up to ridiculous proportions.

Battle Field Conditions are just pure fun. The guys who have mastered every facet of the game love them because they relieve the boredom. And guys like me (who haven't mastered much of anythng. LOL!) love them because they sometimes give us a fighting chance against the masters.

I only resent Pogs for one reason. They have completely replaced REV's of agents and their requisite LE's. If they gave us even just one set of agents each set, I'd be OK.

The biggest disappointment in my otherwise all time favorite set of Fantastic Forces was no REV of Cyborg Cop and Samurai Woman to give us LE's for Misty Knight and Colleen Wing.

That said. Backing off of Team Abilities on Pogs due to power gamers has been annoying too. Power gamers will find a way no matter what. It would be better to just fix the wording on Wild Card instead, to exclude copying Pogs.

Franklin Richards with no FF Team Ability is just plain stupid.

[Tylk]

Death to any pog with a team ability (ANY), to help curb wildcard abuse.
Death to every BFC card as they can drastically impact a game.
Death to...wait...actually, although some are carp, I really like the feats though.

[Manchine]

Plain and simple. I feel feats and BFC's add to the game a lot. They help balance teams out instead of playing the same teams over and over again.

[Ro-gan]

Personally, I like about 98-99% of the BFCs.

Sure, ICwO is abused, but the rest bring new life to characters that never stood a chance to make a team in a competitive setting.

And Fortitude is one of the best cards because no longer do I have to worry about fielding Juggernaut only to have him taken down by R Black Panther and a beat stick in 1 round.

[admironheart]

What I like about the Battle Field Conditions is the fact that the random game mechanics make for a variety in tournament teams. Many cards specifically hurt some of the tournament abuse teams and thus the tournament scene has become varied of late.

What I like about the Feat cards is the lack of random elelments...They specifically help old powers out, fill in the blanks for missing powers without having to create new ones, and overall hae made about double the number of different pieces in the tournament scene.


POGS well are just filler and are disappointing to me...would rather have Object tokens or special tokens with special rules. Lian Harper adds nothing to the game in a good way.

Overall the tournament scene from now vs a year ago looks drastically different.
Even common teams like Vet Icons supes with fortitude or LAMP teams....is a change from the TK slingshot BlackAdam/Amazo/Thor...with Hawkeye support.

pece

wes

[SpakSpang]

Here I have to disagree with you. Making the actually powers more complicated is a big mistake, as it draws away from the simplicity that is the basic foundation of this complex game.
In spirit, the beauty of heroclix is that the powers and stats are all kept on a fairly easy to read dial. For this to stay in some form of reality, the powers must be kept simple.
For complicated attacks like ambush, adding another long, drawn-out rule that won't always be used isn't a good idea. Using a feat forces you to have a nice piece of cardboard with the rule printed on it, so you don't have to look up it's exact wording to remember if it's a +1 or +2, or what type of action it takes, and is it a modifier or a replacement value.


I understand what you are saying, and can agree with most of it. However, I think Wizkids has already failed to keep the game as simple and logical with the rules.

Personally, I believe they have complicated actions and matters too much already, and I believe some changes to powers and how they interact would be much better than some of these feats.

For instance. To simplify things I would allow All Attack powers to work with movement powers, so I know if its in that attack slot I can use charge/running shot/HSS with that attack. Instead now I have to remember, Quake works with Charge, but Not HSS. BCF works with Charge but not HSS. Can I even use INCAP with any of them? Its confusing.

This also still allows you to seperate the Damage Powers that add damage value to attacks seperate from move and attack powers.

Another thing Wiz Kids did to overcomplicate things was Rule of 3. All they needed to do was rule that powers are not stackable, which would do much more to balance the game then the rule of three, and be less complicated. As of now, I must figure out. RCE increases my damage by 2, so I can only perplex it 1 more time. But I could just use 3 Perplex.

So if you are going to argue we don't need to change rules for fear of complicating matters, I think we need to change rules to simplify them.

[Top10]

Why I like feats

1. They have added a bit more playability to certain figures that I like
2. They can create more of a comic book accuracy to the game
3. They increase strategy and different styles of play

Why I don't like feats

1. Just like any new element there is the risk for abuse
2. I forget they are there !!!!!!!! Just like those darn pogs.
3. Wizkids hasn't created a contest for future feats and BFC's. I'm sure they get ideas from posts but why not offer up prizes. We can vote and decide the next feat !!!!!!

[Prophet22192]

As a whole, I love feats and BFCs. I love the different aspects of play they add to the game.

That being said, I have no problem when Sentry busts down a wall with Unstoppable and lands a dumpster upside of my Superman's head.

But I have to admit, it hurts when Superman pops Captain America (5 damage) with the dumpster (+2 = 7) and rolls a critical hit (+1 = 8) and the knockback would send him into a wall (+1 = 9) and my apponent throws down his Protected.

Ouch.

[kjv_66]

I love the cards. I think they help take older figs that weren't playable before and help make them into playable figs. I can think of several figs that I'll be trying Flashbang on. I think it will help figs like HT Robin be a little better.

[George Smiley]

I really like feats and I really, really like alternate TAs. However I think alternate TAs should have restrictions such as no wildcarding.

I think we need even more mechanics to promote theme play. For example something like: Any team composed entirely of one TA gets up to 10.5% of its build total in free feats would be awesome.

I do not like pogs and I do not like BFCs. I feel like the mechanic for BFCs should be a random draw not a selection. I will admit that I have used BFCs to neutralize dominating teams.

[xXHushXx]

I'm in the middle.

It's great to see new team building strats instead of the same old teams every time.

Only problem is feats/BFCs can be repetitive.

"Oh, KC GL w/ Protected, Trickshot, ICWO, Fortitude? WHAT A FREAKIN' SURPRISE?" :rolleyes:

Don't get me started.... :p

But they're good I guess, and I rather have em than not....ome can be really cool- CD ones look fun

[daredevil11]

First I think you should split the question - ask about feats and BFC's separately because I think you would get different answers.

Feats, in general I think they are great - allowing you to tweak a figure a bit that you want a little more out of ... making more characters playable, that's always a good thing. My only problem with them is 3 or 4 cards on a single character which I think is abusive and getting away from the "everything on the dial" principle. It's also confusing to many players, "What do you have on that one again???" Maybe a limit on cards per character and perhaps chip markers, with the initials of the feat should be required.

BFCs - BFCs are great for scenarios or if you preselect a few that will randomly be selected. That's the only way they are great. As written in the tournament rules, they are played contrary to their original concept and turn the game into rock, paper, scissors. When you listen to people talk about how they use them, few actually play them as the tournament rules specify.

They change the nature of the game. Even friends I know that claim to like them, will come to me and say they lost or that game, not because of a bad move or an unbalanced team, but because someone played (x) bfc on them. So people are going to tournaments hoping they dodge a bullet and don't get a bad BFC match up instead of hoping they playing well and their team was constructed properly.

__________
Getting back to my original point though, I think everyone will agree that the feat cards are more popular than the BFCs and that's why this poll will be scewed in my opinion.

[Kite-Man]

The cards make it VERY difficult for me to introduce new players.

I play fairly frequently --and I still don't know the rules for half of the cards!

A little frustrating.

[Gacy's Clown]

I'm pretty sure most people know my feelings on these....

[StellarX]

The additional cards/feats/etc are a great addition/new dimension to the game.

However you needn't necessarily use them - no one's forcing you to! Newbies should be encouraged to play without these extra rules, then adopt them once they are comfortable and familiar with the basic concept.

More please!

Would still prefer figs rather than pogs for bystanders however. ;)

StellarX

[George Smiley]

I'm in the middle.

It's great to see new team building strats instead of the same old teams every time.

Only problem is feats/BFCs can be repetitive.

"Oh, KC GL w/ Protected, Trickshot, ICWO, Fortitude? WHAT A FREAKIN' SURPRISE?" :rolleyes:

Don't get me started.... :p

But they're good I guess, and I rather have em than not....ome can be really cool- CD ones look fun

That post may imply that KCGL with that combination of feats is abuse or close to abuse but I still haven't seen KCGL winning any open tournaments. Swarm teams, Lockjaws and Superman teams seem to have a bigger advantage.

[HippieX]

Well, I am a HUGE fan of Feats for this game....

BF conditions, on the other hand, are AWFUL.....


I agree. Feats like pounce (my favorite), armor peircing, flashbang ( :) ) add a lot of fun to the game and make some pieces I love to play competative. All of the flashes would be never see play without AP (imho).

BFC just seem to break your team for no reason. I could do without them and I rarely ever use them.

[Domi]

I LOVE the cards. They're awesome because they provide more specific or entirely new rules to the game that totally add to the comic-book battle thing. For example, check out the Armor Wars Homing Device card (first example I could think of because I pulled one yesterday). Characters like Batman and Spider-Man have little mechanical tracking devices that they stick on people or things so they don't get lost. The card does EXACTLY THAT. Since you know who you stuck it on, you therefore know where that figure is, and nothing short of a brick wall should be able to stop you from blowing the snot out of him- again, since you know he's there. The feats are excellent for this kind of reasoning.

The Battlefield Conditions are also great. Stuff like nuclear reactor meltdowns or giant earthquakes happen all the time in comic books, and now we get that stuff to work for us. Smart characters can figure out how to use a situation to their advantage (for example, Batman in the dark, ie deep shadows), so why shouldn't the Heroclix of those characters?

Pogs were a good idea, but I think they're the worst of the cards. Let me explain. Remember the Infinity Challenge and Hypertime figures like Criminal and Lackey? They had anywhere from 3-5 clix of life, depending on the version. Even Jim Gordon the old man had 5 clix of life. So how does it make any sense to give someone like Alfred- a smart old bat with a shotgun, acting experience, and great fitness (for an old man, anyway) only one click of life?

Lastly, the Special Objects. They simply rock. I've been waiting for a Fuel Tank since the game came out. It's just too bad you can't attack it and hurt adjacent figures...

So, in short, cards add to the comic-bookiness (is that a word?) of the game by adding in stuff that we could never have had otherwise. End of story, at least for me.

[Briel]

A lot of the upset seems to be about power gamers moreso than the cards themselves.

My venue is lucky to have judge who isn't afraid to lay down the law.

When he was just a player he was nigh unbeatable, not because of cheese, but because his darn head works like a computer (never misses anythnig that's going on on the board).

Anyway, when he and the other two experts would come across the Cheeseball Power Gamers, they'd make it a point to chase them down with pure skill and mockery.

It really led to new players being able to come back to have fun again.

Also it's player's choice to use BFC's or not. If one player chooses not to use them, the other has to oblige. But most of our players say go for it because it makes things more like the comic books.

As for Pogs with Team abilities. Why should my beloved Fantastic Four suffer because of Wildcard abuse. Alicia Masters has helped my team again and again.

All that is needed is one sentence saying no Wildcarding off the Pogs.

Although that would be lame for my Legion of Super-Heroes army, for who'm I only use one or two Pogs (one offense & one defense). Mind you that's 1 or 2. Not 4 or 5.

Actually. Wilcarding would be completely repaired if you had to choose at the beginning of the turn before any actions are taken, and leave it that way until next turn. Being able to change at all is still really powerful.

[N0S4A2]

I think the, "This game is too complex for newbies" argument is lame.
You can still introduce and teach the basics very easily. The cards can be played without still, and they do explain themselves. But mostly, wouldn't it be sad if this game never got to a higher plateau? If that simple overview you learned initially was all the deeper the game ever got? I think games should be stratified, with an entry level (the quick start rules), a medium level (the rulebook), and an advanced level (cards, erratas, special rules figs).
No one griped about the Sentinel's mass of rules, and he's still one of the most complex rule additions in the game. Forget what ICWO does and if Atlantis Rising beats Astral Plane, I wanna know if the Sentinel's immune to every power Reed Richards has!

The problem with Feats/BFC and newbies/casual players is not the complexity that they introduce (that is a systemic problem with the game). It is the time investment and access you have to have to properly play a game with them.

EX:

I just played my first game. Kinda liked it. It was a little confusing, but a lot fun, so I want to play again.

So I go buy a starter and some boosters and build a team from what I have. Then I go to play.

And a figure has a power that I had no way to expect because it's not in the rule book or on the PAC. And I can't use the TA that I built my team around because there's a BFC from two sets ago (when I hadn't even heard of the game) that negates it.

None of that is in the rules or PAC I got in my starter that says "everything you need" to play is in the box.

[daredevil11]

Also it's player's choice to use BFC's or not. If one player chooses not to use them, the other has to oblige. But most of our players say go for it because it makes things more like the comic books.

Unfortunately, that's not true, not in the official tournament rules. I wish it was, but it's not and that goes back to what I was saying earlier...most of the people who claim to like them, like them because they do not play them the official way.

The official, tournament adaptation of the original concept, is horrible.

Consider the difference between choosing a single BFC card during construction vs having a handful to choose from After you've seen your opponents force. It's a defensive concept altered to offensive.

Actually the very simple answer to this poll is that BFC's do throw the game out of balance. At least with the feat cards, there's a cost associated with using them. With the BFCs I'm allowed to limit my opponents abilities, which he or she has paid for with their construction points, for absolutely nothing. That is certainly not a "balanced" effect.

[daredevil11]

The problem with Feats/BFC and newbies/casual players is not the complexity that they introduce (that is a systemic problem with the game). It is the time investment and access you have to have to properly play a game with them.

My advice to new players is that you should tell your opponents in casual play that you just don't want to play with feat cards yet. You need to become familiar with the characters, powers and rules before you start overwriting the basic game mechanics with cheesy BFC cards.

If you are going to an official tourney, I would seek out a venue that house rules BFCs into something more reasonable and enjoyable.

[WrathX]

I've played with and without. I actually dislike feats and battlefield conditions in the way they've been implemented. When a player can have three figures, all with 18+ defense, hypersonic speed, and 10 feat cards for a 400 point team (10 might be a slight exaggeration, but it was alot), while his opponent is stuck with just having a team because he has no feat cards, the game becomes far too unbalanced.

"In contact with Oracle, all my defense is up by one! Ha ha!"

In Contact is the worst of the bunch. Even though all it does is +1 to any stat, that's still dramatically improving a figure's ability. I can't go to a tournament anymore and not see this feat played every single game, excluding mine.

And Battlefield Conditions? Don't get me started. I build or use a team based on a team ability. Next thing I know, Disbanded is played, and my team is useless unless I play Ordinary Day, which I don't have.

In my opinion, if feats are played, then they should be balanced towards both players, i.e. you cannot use more feats than your opponent, or you cannot use more than X feats per 100 points. They are pretty much permanent, board covering buffs for your team. There are no figures that do that, unless you have LoS and/or are in range.

Perhaps if they made feats and BC's more widely available, as in, providing more than just one card per booster, then it'd be a different story, since they'll get into players hands much easier with much less spending. But as they are now, if you have a ton of feat cards and BC cards, you can pretty much run the game against anyone who has none.

[Gacy's Clown]

My advice to new players is that you should tell your opponents in casual play that you just don't want to play with feat cards yet. You need to become familiar with the characters, powers and rules before you start overwriting the basic game mechanics with cheesy BFC cards.

If you are going to an official tourney, I would seek out a venue that house rules BFCs into something more reasonable and enjoyable.

Yeah, when we've had a few new people show up recently, I just told everyone else not to use any Feats/BFCs when they played the new people and they were more than happy too. Most regular players can still beat a new player without their feats, but I would hope that they're more concerned about helping out the new player, showing him some strategies rather than trying to win that precious LE. Just thumping a new player isn't exactly going to make them excited to come back.

[Gacy's Clown]

I've played with and without. I actually dislike feats and battlefield conditions in the way they've been implemented. When a player can have three figures, all with 18+ defense, hypersonic speed, and 10 feat cards for a 400 point team (10 might be a slight exaggeration, but it was alot), while his opponent is stuck with just having a team because he has no feat cards, the game becomes far too unbalanced.

"In contact with Oracle, all my defense is up by one! Ha ha!"

In Contact is the worst of the bunch. Even though all it does is +1 to any stat, that's still dramatically improving a figure's ability. I can't go to a tournament anymore and not see this feat played every single game, excluding mine.

And Battlefield Conditions? Don't get me started. I build or use a team based on a team ability. Next thing I know, Disbanded is played, and my team is useless unless I play Ordinary Day, which I don't have.

In my opinion, if feats are played, then they should be balanced towards both players, i.e. you cannot use more feats than your opponent, or you cannot use more than X feats per 100 points. They are pretty much permanent, board covering buffs for your team. There are no figures that do that, unless you have LoS and/or are in range.

Perhaps if they made feats and BC's more widely available, as in, providing more than just one card per booster, then it'd be a different story, since they'll get into players hands much easier with much less spending. But as they are now, if you have a ton of feat cards and BC cards, you can pretty much run the game against anyone who has none.


I agree with some of your post, except for the part about the availability of the cards. There are people that have gobs of these things and would be more than willing to trade them. You could easily offer up some REVs or something for a bunch of them. They definitely aren't hard to get or come by if you put forth the minimal effort it takes to look for them. I've got extras too, so throw me a PM if you're wanting to trade for any.:)

[The_Lone_Wolf]

like the feats... add to the game... like trickshot... bullseye... who never misses his opponent, cant shoot batman when he is 2 squares away plinging off @ him?!?!?!?!?!?! and fortitude... Superman who is only vulnerable to magic and Kryptonite can have his powers reduced to cinder by a man who just lately got into the super hero game( rookie black panther) ?!?!? uber powerful colossus who can pick up and throw a bus cant toss a 4 foot tall wolverine??!?!?!!? ( fast ball special which i use quite often)

hate the BFCs... well some any ways... like when Disbanded nerfs my Fantastic four with a spiderman... i mean in the comic( and even in the movie and the TV show, fantastic four work together to protect one another... like in the movie susan puts up a barrier to keep Victor from driving a pole into Ben.... ) or how bright lights gimps a team of batman's ally from doing what they do best... sticking to stadows......

[Thanosied]

I always thought that spome characters needed tohave dual abilities on there dial at the same time ie Mastermind and Invulerability. Feats are a way of accoplishing this. However. they are getting out of hand when they can be played with the almost every character in the game. A certain Feat should have a list online or in the set of which select few characters can use it and thats all. Trickshot on a GL? Common people it really makes no sense. The Feats also make teams or ideas that were #### months and years back retardedly good at present, a good look at this is the poison/mastermind teams running the show because there damage can't be stopped.

Just my opinion but whatever. Battle field conditions is neat but not a big deal. If you say bought your 12 boosters(for your Brick) and got all the Feats, Battlefield conditions and bystander tokens you may see more people coming out to constructed tournaments to competed because they know they have all the stuff the other players have and can build a team to compete.

[ETUK]

I think feats should be for their specific universe, DC feats for DC etc and cannot be used on say Marvel. This would stop the abuse of certains feats like ICWO and using TBolts to copy Mystic, this would then make the game a bit more real.

[TitanThanos]

I think thaat the cards add a more comic book feel to the game. I look forward to what I'm pulling for a card now, as well as what figures are in the box.

[phantom1592]

I think feats should be for their specific universe, DC feats for DC etc and cannot be used on say Marvel. This would stop the abuse of certains feats like ICWO and using TBolts to copy Mystic, this would then make the game a bit more real.

I hate ideas like this. Cards are not universe specific. Marvel has mystics too, they just don't have a TA yet. ICWO makes as much sense if you put it on Prof X or Jean Grey or White Queen.

Both universe have trick shooters/unstoppable/Shake off type characters

Your idea will result in NOTHING except whole sets of reprinted cards.

There is no Marvel, there is no DC. There is only Heroclix. It is one game meant to be played that way.

[ULF]

Feats and BFCs, and now these objects, add layers of unneeded complexity upon a game that once billed itself as "all the rules are on the dial!!"

As for "don't play with them while you teach the game", back in the day, tournaments at brick-and-mortar venues were a sales stimulator. The venue I frequented often told new players to come to tournaments to learn the game.

So, in general we'd get a new player or two every month at the weekly tournament, and before cardboard we could reasonable teach the game while playing.

Now: They sit down to a purple card they don't understand, and face an army with 2-3 orange cards they dont understand. Soon, they can also expect a fine blue object they don't understand, and perhaps a red object that can be thrown 6 squares when their rulebook clearly tells them red objects can only be thrown 4 squares.

So, while I personally want the cardboard out of my minis game for personal reasons, I also say that these layers of cardboard complexity also hurt the brick-and-mortar guy's ability to use local tournaments as sales stimulators for new customers.

RMS

[Foran12]

ICWO makes as much sense if you put it on Prof X or Jean Grey or White Queen.

Maybe. But somehow these aren't the marvel figs I see getting played with ICWO. :confused:


Both universe have trick shooters/unstoppable/Shake off type characters

And both universes has trickshot and unstoppable cards made so no problem here (not sure about shake off though).


There is no Marvel, there is no DC. There is only Heroclix. It is one game meant to be played that way.

Actually there are two heroclix is devided into three games: DC, Marvel & Indy. This is why it's possible to play DC or Marvel only tournaments.
There is a reason WK doesn't put DC and Marvel figs into one set (at least not intentionally... look at the thread about weird pulls).
Thankfully DC and Marvel use the same gamesystem, which is why they are compatible, and can be played as a single game. This is the must fun way to play, and most certainly the way I like to play clix, but that doesn't change the fact that Heroclix isn't a single game, it's a composition. :cool:

[sebsee]

I really like the feats but BFC's are just ok. Frankly, battlefield conditions should be random. I have heard a number of suggestions for using Bfc's in a more random manner and were I to play them, that's how I would want to do it. As a "strategic" element to the game, they just don't feel right.

[darklogos]

I like feats and bfc. Without Power Damping Field I can't really beat V Icons Supes in an indoor or armor wars map at all. At the pre-release I beat the guy who won the tournament. (Swiss rules or some wierd thing) I had a balanced team with a heavy hitter, a tker, a medic, and a solid secondary attacker. Heck my tker was Clarice Furgision so I would have a nice attack value. When I faced other superman teams I lost. Why? Hypersonic speed and range equals hard as hell to kill. Without being able to to choose battlefeild condition and playing them versus certain teams the cheese teams would stop more people from playing.

You can complian about poor teamwork, disbanded, radiation leak, darkness, bright lights, and crosswinds all you like but they are a counter balance for very strong teams. I prefer to have a bfc that can be used once per tourney to be a check and balance to a common tactic then to have a power changed to stop abuse. Disbanded stops wild card abuse teams and ALT F4 ##### teams. Radiation leak hurts people that play a bunch of medics. Poor teamwork makes folks rethink using tk to base their team around. Darkness makes range fighers less viable. Bright lights makes teams that do nothing but plant themselves and stealth and plink away your team have to actually engage your force.

I've gotten to the point where I can adapt my team to deal with any bfc that will come my way. I also look at my oppenents teams to see waht BFC best fit them and what they are most likely to use. In the end I have to think about how I am going to fight. I can't just build a team and expect it to win by itself. I have to overcome the odds placed before me and win. When I don't like it I'll find another game to play.

[Angry Salad]

Middle of the road. Myself, I'd like to see more Feats that are created solely to improve the lackluster figures with nested requirements like < 9 AV or < 3 Damage. Yes, some feats and BFC make mediocre figures playable, unfortunately they also frequently make good or great figures phenomenal.

[spider_ham]

I like the concept of Feats, but feel that they should be treated like Unique figs and be limited to one per force. Love the BFCs, since they balance the playing field. Proximity Mines is my new fav, especially against Batman Ally teams on the IC Outdoor Starter Map-- very little hindering.

[The_Lone_Wolf]

Middle of the road. Myself, I'd like to see more Feats that are created solely to improve the lackluster figures with nested requirements like < 9 AV or < 3 Damage. Yes, some feats and BFC make mediocre figures playable, unfortunately they also frequently make good or great figures phenomenal.

see thats the great thing though...
in comic books... you can see a AIM agent take out Iron Man cause he has Armor Piercing Bullets... not likely that will happen in the comics cause the good guys always win but its a true posibility...
The feats make the game more comic like... if you saw my earlier post.. you recognize this... a rookie that just got into the superheroic game shouldnt be able to Greatly weaken a Veteran who is now recognized as a good at his game( rookie black panther outwitting Superman's Impervious, or HSS...) hence the much needed fortitude... now some feats are just being overkilled... like ICWO... i have seen teams that have 7 agents with it, and oracle on the card giving them 7+ outwits... now thats just wrong... or even wasp thunderbolted to GLC.... a winged girl who can shrink in size, CAN NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM carry 8 other people next to her... I can see them being thunderbolted to Ultimate... but a single wasp thunderbolted to GLC... that kinda stuff i just dont tolerate... at that point... i go and decimate my opponent faster then i originally planned( and usually i do it nice and slow to cause them misery...)

[spider_ham]

or even wasp thunderbolted to GLC.... a winged girl who can shrink in size, CAN NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM carry 8 other people next to her... I can see them being thunderbolted to Ultimate... but a single wasp thunderbolted to GLC... that kinda stuff i just dont tolerate...

One of my favorite uses for Universe Starter E Wasp: Avengers transport. For 25 points, you can't go wrong! ;)

[darklogos]

I use thunderbolts gl bus on Vet hawkeye with 3 u-men and a few hookers to make sure my attack levels stay steady.

[Gacy's Clown]

Don't even get me started on how ridiculous that is....

[ULF]

... but possible thanks to the world of Feats!

Bah!

RMS

[coyotejack]

I really like the feats but BFC's are just ok. Frankly, battlefield conditions should be random. I have heard a number of suggestions for using Bfc's in a more random manner and were I to play them, that's how I would want to do it. As a "strategic" element to the game, they just don't feel right.

It's funny you should mention random BFCs. Our judge did a few scenarios where the players don't bring their own BFCs, instead, two random BFC's would be generated. I basically programmed a "randomizer" Excel spreadsheet on his laptop to consider all of the BFCs so at the beginning of each game all the judge had to do was refresh the sheet and..voila: two new BFCs.

As for the poll, I'm for cards all the way. The feats help many figures that were limping along before. They also give more of a comic feel to the game with some of the abilities granted. BFCs add an element of surprise. You have to be able to think a bit more "outside the box", knowing that your stealth could be useless or your TA could get wiped. Sure it can be frustrating, but I find it challenging. Besides, each player has an equal chance of playing something useful or hindering. Pogs I never use and I think should be limited in the number that can be on the field. Sorry, but nothing is more pathetic than seeing an army of Lian Harpers on the field.

[The_Lone_Wolf]

see if i were to play you doing that whole thing with the universe wasp... i would be sure to leave her be the last piece of your army to decimate... OR the first... wouldnt let you live past turn 5 or 6 max... Serpent society, Ultimates, Defenders, Sinister Syndicate... those i can see happening... i like feats dont get me wrong... some of them are just over kill... like repulsor shield... TOTALLY GIMPS 3 powers... and protected... my flash is gonna pound your PARAMEDIC into submission... wait what?!?!? you're just gonna take a token and ignore taking 4 damage?!?!? @$%# YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sebsee]

It's funny you should mention random BFCs. Our judge did a few scenarios where the players don't bring their own BFCs, instead, two random BFC's would be generated. I basically programmed a "randomizer" Excel spreadsheet on his laptop to consider all of the BFCs so at the beginning of each game all the judge had to do was refresh the sheet and..voila: two new BFCs.

Gee, we just threw them in a hat and picked one ; )

Actually, the one time I used them, I took about 7 random bfc's and 3 ordinary days, mixed them up, and played one card each turn. It was actually a lot of fun. It added a nice, random element to the game. On some turns they had little or no impact and some turns they had a large influence on play for that turn. A lot like random events in many strategic board games. What I liked about it was, if, say "disbanded" came up, it might mess up a player for one turn but it wouldnt completely nerf his team for an entire game.

[shock man x]

While I love what some feats have done for the playability of some figures, like pounce on any Spider-Man or the new flash bang for any Smoke Cloud/Stealth fig, I don't like the breakability of others.

Fortitude, Protected, Earthquake and many others just seem to take more fun out of the game than they add in.

I'm in the middle.

[Foran12]

[QUOTE=The_Lone_Wolf]my flash is gonna pound your PARAMEDIC into submission... wait what?!?!? you're just gonna take a token and ignore taking 4 damage?QUOTE]

Wait.. what flash did you say you have again?? 4 damage?? I gots ta get me one uw these. :devious:

[shock man x]

[QUOTE=The_Lone_Wolf]my flash is gonna pound your PARAMEDIC into submission... wait what?!?!? you're just gonna take a token and ignore taking 4 damage?QUOTE]

Wait.. what flash did you say you have again?? 4 damage?? I gots ta get me one uw these. :devious:


Try Any Flash In The Game. ;)

[darklogos]

It may be silly to have Hawkeye being a GL, but he is killable. I think V Icons supes was 251 points for the sole reason you can't use repulsar sheild and fortitude.

Funny thing about fortitude I remember folks complaining how black cat and black panther could create a situation to crush a k.c. superman and something had to be done. Now that we have fortitude it seems that people want the god old days of outwitting impervious to land major hits on centerpeice figures.

[D.E.Kesler]

Hello All,

While this poll does illustrate that half of those polled agree with the statement, "I enjoy the cardboard add-ins and feel they add too (sic) the game." It also illustrates that half of those polled do not entirely enjoy the cardboard add-ins.

Personally, I feel that it is a neat concept; however, something is missing in the execution.

Regards and Best Wishes,

Donald Eric Kesler

[Domi]

I have to say that BFC's can get out of hand a lot more than feats. Having a choice of what BFC you use AFTER you see the opponent's team is kinda cheesy... Random BFC's is definitely the way to go, in my opinion. Often the judge at my venue will obtain one copy of EVERY BFC (pooled from all the players present and returned later) with a couple of extra Ordinary Days, and pick two for each match. It works really well.

Although I still say that Feats rock. I don't care what anyone says, there is ALWAYS a counter-strategy to anything your opponent could possibly use. Vet Supes? Use a Stealth team and draw him out. KC Green Lantern with ulti-defence? Use the old Ultron or Thanos.

Also, I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as wildcard "abuse". You pay for the team ability when you're picking your characters, and there's a limit on how many abilities you can use. You can't say, for example, "You attack Spider-Man? Well in that case I roll Skrulls. Failed? Okay, I declare Mystics." You have to pick ONE PER ACTION. And plus, if you use a bunch of cheap figs to stock up on TA's, you lack the effectiveness of a large diverse team; all you have is one powerful figure.

Well, that's what I think. Anyone objects, I don't care.

[Huppolitan]

Heroclix is supposed to be fast superhero action, not Magic: The Deck-Building. The BFCs and Feats lead to min/maxing nightmares. A lot of the game has always been minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths through force selection and point balance, and that's fine and fun. The trouble is, the cardboard bits make min/maxing and certain character/card combos the heart of the game. The characters themselves should be designed with strengths and weaknesses that suggest ways to both play them and counter them, and ways to use and oppose them when they appear on various teams. The cards make everything kablooey, and additionally increase the poverty gap between those who buy a few boosters at each expansion and those who buy EVERYTHING.

As a marketing strategy, too, I would think that the cardboard would discourage those who enjoy the thrill of buying boosters at local stores and "opening the stocking" in the parking lot and encourage people to buy strategically on EBay to get cards and figures that match their metagame strategies.

[Gacy's Clown]

I don't care what anyone says, there is ALWAYS a counter-strategy to anything your opponent could possibly use. Vet Supes? Use a Stealth team and draw him out.

I'm not objecting, but last I checked Supes has the Superman TA.....

[darklogos]

As a marketing strategy, too, I would think that the cardboard would discourage those who enjoy the thrill of buying boosters at local stores and "opening the stocking" in the parking lot and encourage people to buy strategically on EBay to get cards and figures that match their metagame strategies.

There are great limits to the game mechanics and allowing all the wierd stuff feats does into the normal game would just break the game mechanics. Folks go on ebay to buy peices anyway. It doesn't matter what game it is. If you want to win you will find a way. In all fairness it is cheaper to go on ebay and buy the tactical peices out of the set then to buy a small set of boosters. Instead of hoping and praying you get surity. Often times you can get an rev for 3 bucks. That is half the price of a booster. If you get enough figs from the same seller the shipping is a lot cheaper as well. If you look on ebay selling the feats is rare. Many of the auctions that offer card mainly offer bfc's and not feats. I've been looking for Armor Wars feats on ebay for a while and I haven't found any sellers.

It is still possible to play the game without cardboard but then we are back to many of the problems that happened before cards. Like I stated before pre-frotitude folks cried that black cat could outwit their centerpeice and cause it to take 5 clicks of damage making the piece worthless. We all remember the Magog, coke machine, 3 con artist, 1 hit ko bomb right. Cards make it tougher to have a cheap win like in the past. In the past if you had a heavy hitter against a swarm team you had a high chance of success. Those days are over. You have to gamble a bit with whatever team you build. Feats have crated this scenero and I like it.

[N0S4A2]

I think the, "This game is too complex for newbies" argument is lame.
You can still introduce and teach the basics very easily. The cards can be played without still, and they do explain themselves. But mostly, wouldn't it be sad if this game never got to a higher plateau? If that simple overview you learned initially was all the deeper the game ever got? I think games should be stratified, with an entry level (the quick start rules), a medium level (the rulebook), and an advanced level (cards, erratas, special rules figs).
No one griped about the Sentinel's mass of rules, and he's still one of the most complex rule additions in the game. Forget what ICWO does and if Atlantis Rising beats Astral Plane, I wanna know if the Sentinel's immune to every power Reed Richards has!

Different levels of rules to make a game more challenging is a sign of weak design. Chess has one set of rules. I can teach them to a third grader in about 15 minutes. After you learn the rules, you can spend the rest of your life trying to master the complexity of the game. The richness in the play of a game should come from the players not the rules.

[N0S4A2]

It is still possible to play the game without cardboard but then we are back to many of the problems that happened before cards. Like I stated before pre-frotitude folks cried that black cat could outwit their centerpeice and cause it to take 5 clicks of damage making the piece worthless. We all remember the Magog, coke machine, 3 con artist, 1 hit ko bomb right. Cards make it tougher to have a cheap win like in the past. In the past if you had a heavy hitter against a swarm team you had a high chance of success. Those days are over. You have to gamble a bit with whatever team you build. Feats have crated this scenero and I like it.

True, the cards do help balance the game some, but there are other (IMHO) better ways to do it. First, they errata the snot out of everything else, why not just errata some of the point costs up (or down) to fix some of the figure with constant complaints about being "broken"? Second, they could mod the rules themselves. It's not like that hasn't been done before. And last, but MOST important, play a four player game instead of a two player game. Most of the power in the popular unbalanced team strategies (see the "cheese" poll) goes away when you are facing more than one opponent. And that is consistent with the existing rules and every version going back!

I don't think the question is "can you use cards to fix some of the problems with the game?" but rather "is using cards the best way to fix some of the problems with the game?"

Pax

[N0S4A2]

My advice to new players is that you should tell your opponents in casual play that you just don't want to play with feat cards yet. You need to become familiar with the characters, powers and rules before you start overwriting the basic game mechanics with cheesy BFC cards.

If you are going to an official tourney, I would seek out a venue that house rules BFCs into something more reasonable and enjoyable.

The time investment problem for newbies and casual players is not the time to learn the rules. I got the rules and the PAC in the starter box when I bought it. What I don't have is a list of the Feats and BFC. I not only have to keep up with and track a set of 12 or so different rules per set, but if I start playing now, I have to worry about what was in the last three or four sets, which are no longer in print.

The game does not benefit from having the performance space of the game (rules, potential actions, capabilities) change every new set.

[DareDevil-fan]

Overall I like using the cards. But I wish they would limit the number of cards that you can put on a figure. We have one player that always puts Fortitude, Trick Shot, Armor Piercing, and Oracle on his Amazo. Every tourney its always the same 4 cards on him. I wish they would limit it to 1 or 2 cards max. Fortitude and Oracle; or Thrick Shot and Oracle. Something like that. In our last tourney (2000 pts.) one player had 13 cards spread on 6 figures and oracle was on every one of the 6. He had to have a cheat sheet just to remember who had what. To me that was abuse; and not what the game was meant to be, or become.

I do like using the cards. But I feel there starting to be abused to a certain point, especially when you can put as many cards as you like on a figure. Just like what happen in Mage Knight.

The best thing is that there is only been 14 cards per set. Wizkids learned that flooding a set with 100's of cards was wrong and it killed Mage Knight. I glad there not doing that to heroclix. Now if they would only limit the number of cards per figure. I feel that would help the game.

[Domi]

I'm not objecting, but last I checked Supes has the Superman TA.....

Whoops, my mistake.
Why don't you just play Disbanded then, despite the fact that it makes my argument irrelevant.

[Gacy's Clown]

:laugh: It's no problem. Just found it funny.:)

[Zap Rowzdower]

I think the battle field conditions and feats have about run their course and no new ones need be made. I like the new item cards though. Also bystander cards need to continue as well.

[darklogos]

I think that limiting the amount a feats that can be played on a single figure could have some problems. When you have to deal feats like large object and rip it up that can apply to a whole team would those feats count toward the aloutment of a figure? We only end up with more problems.

[sharkboy77]

All i know is i saw cards mess up MW and i don't want to see the same think happend to HC... one of the places i play at is card crazy and one i'm the only guy that plays them, and there i don't play that many of them... cause at one shop it's really competive and one it's a lot of comic book collectors so they tend to like to play it according to story (witch i must say is more fun)

[elfholme]

-pretty much the way I feel about them. Some have helped the game, others have just made it worse and more complicated.

Totally agree. I like the concept, but in practice there are quite a few cards that I wish had never been made. Including most of the BFCs.

[DareDevil-fan]

All i know is i saw cards mess up MW and i don't want to see the same think happend to HC...

That was posted by Sharkboy77.

I agree with you that cards have messed up MechWarrior, but not completely. I still play the game and to like the fact that there is a 2 card limit on the mechs. I do totally agree that there is way too many cards for MW. I feel that by this time next year Wizkids/Topps will have killed off MW like that did to Mage Knight and my MW pieces will either by in a box buried in my closet or on ebay hoping someone will buy them.

As far as HC goes I love the game. I do like some of the cards, but I would like wizkids to limit the number of cards per fig instead of allowing infinite number of cards to create a "uberhero or villian" who always hits and came never be KOed. This is where I feel that the cards abuse the game. But thats my opinion.

[plkangus]

Actually, putting a 2 card per character limit on feats would make a lot of sense. But so would an Alfred Pennyworth Clix.

[plkangus]

Actually, putting a 2 card per character limit on feats would make a lot of sense. But so would an Alfred Pennyworth Clix.

He could have "Dinner is Served" as his LE... :p

[Hazyrd]

I'm middle of the road on this. While most cards that are put out are pointless, there are always one or two that come out each set that really help the game, like Armor Piercing or Unstoppable. I like the cards that make underpowered characters actually fieldable. But there's always some asshat who puts 3 cards on a guy like Superman, Black Adam, or Magneto and totally breaks the game.

[DareDevil-fan]

Your reasoning that someone puts 3 cards on Superman is the main reason I would like Wizkids to limit the cards to 2 per fig. Granted Amazo is going to be retired after CD comes out. But there is one player who always put Fortitude, Trick Shot, Armor Piercing, and Oracle on him. Then always trys to have 2 or 3 perplex figures on his army to enhance him even more. That drives me nuts when I play him.

To another reply: I would love to see an Alfred Pennyworth figure. It makes perfect sense. We already have a Commisioner Gordan Unique figure. He could be an unique in the next DC set or even sooner a LE mail away from Wizkids or Wizard. He would be fantastic. And speaking of Butlers, they could always make the Avengers Jarvis. The pair could be a mail away set for $10. I would buy that set the day is would be offered for sale.

And last but not least. Happy New Year everyone.

[spider_ham]

A pool could be created that limits feats to one per 100 points of the build value. In a standard 300 point game, each force can have up to a maximum of 3 feats, keeping in mind that the player still has to "recruit" the point cost of the cards.

But there's always some asshat who puts 3 cards on a guy like Superman, Black Adam, or Magneto and totally breaks the game.

An "army" of PD figs (Gordan+Inspiring Comand) or Hydra (V Viper+IC) and ICWO usually take care of that problem. :)

[George Smiley]

In reply to the earlier posts:

I don't think of myself as an asshat but I like playing feats and I sometimes load characters with feats. I play the various Green Lanterns frequently and the feats seem to make them play the way that I imagine them to be in comics. Personally, I'd object more to a feat that didn't up to the character more than I would an excessive number of feats.

If anything we need more feats with more more limitations on which figures can use them. I'd like to see a feat card that cost zero points and gave anyone with a team composed of a single Team Ability up to 10% of the game's build total in free feats.

[Mlorjhorn]

Well the Feats to me have made the amount of strategy needed on both offence and defence to go up. However I have seen a change in overall team building, in the old days 300pt team 6-8 figs, now 300pt team 4-6 figs w/ 50-80pts of feats. the point is sure your figs can do more but the overall total amount of damage your team can take before being taken out is much less.

[Teammoo]

I personally think the cards have ruined the game.It has made cheese even more promenent.Just play the game the way it was

[z06need4speed]

I really enjoy playing the feat cards and feel that the BFC's are necessary to stop some of the more unstopeable teams, but I do agree there should be a more randomness involved in their useage. What are the rules now? You choose 2 bfc's with your force for a tournament and can choose which one out of the two you can play out of 3 rounds? Those are the rules we play with, so its not like you can pick any bfc upon seeing your opponents team.

But anyway they definitely have to start narrowing down the prereq's for cards, like protected should probably be 15-25 points and be limited to ppl with impervious, supersenses and maybe energy shield/deflection and tk. And the whole alternate TA and wild card abuse should be taken care of.

They should definitely slow the production of these cards, I don't know how many more could usefully be made, but obviously they are starting to irrate buyers, so I think they should think about feats a lot more before putting them out there. I do however love the new feat that is making guys with leadership and mastermind more useful :)

One thing I really think they should change is the ability to modify combat values up 3x. The perplexing of one slot 3x is completely rediculous (fun perhaps with supes and magog doing an easy 10 damage) but is basically like cheating in video games. I mean giving Robin the ability to do superman damage??? come on, and the same with supes he can do galactus damage with 3 hookers?, they just aren't capeable of doing that in the comics and it seems absurd to allow it. The rule of 3 should become the rule of 1

[Domi]

I don't think there should be any limits on feats. Just last night I used Cain Marko with Fortitude, Repulsor Shield, Swingline, Damage Shield, Protected 3x, and Unstoppable, along with Mandroid Armor and a Paramedic. I had a great time with this team. Just like in the comics... NOTHING CAN STOP THE JUGGERNAUT!!! (except Shield Wolverine and Mystique plus Arthur Curry and Captain Fabulous and a Shield Sniper). If you limited feat cards Juggernaut wouldn't be unstoppable like he's supposed to be.

z06need4speed, your "rule of 1" thing... What about RCE or CCE?

Maybe you should change your username to z06need4brains.

[z06need4speed]

What about RCE and CCE ? They are powers, they represent what those characters should be doing, but 3 hookers making robin do 5 damage? ummmm no, perplex should only be able to increase a stat up once

[Domi]

Well ok, I don't mind that, but you just didn't specify if your rule of 1 would apply only to perplex. I kinda wonder why a hooker would increase your combat ability anyway. Imagine several scantily dressed women clinging to Superman's legs, saying "Ooh, you're so handsome Man of Steel..." as Superman flies around at superspeed beating the #### out of Darkseid. Ridiculous.

[z06need4speed]

Only I think my friend used Ult Thor and his women being the 3 hookers, jean grey and the medic haha