View Full Version : Just Read Identity Crisis...
X-Man3000
03/07/2006, 18:45
Man, Deathstroke is a beast, is he really that good? or did the writer kind of supe him up? And Is his Heroclix pretty accurate to character? because that guy was taking on a whole team.
Man thats a great comic book, i highly recommend it, if you haven't read it.
CornsilkSW
03/07/2006, 18:49
yeah, he's pretty much always been that bad@$$ed. remember this is a guy with no superpowers that regularly brought the titans to their knees by himself.
for more of his ingenuity go read some of the Outsiders. he's awesome.
DarkCrisis
03/07/2006, 18:53
No, he's not THAT good. That battle was written really stupid.
"Hi I'm Green Lantern! I have the most powerful weapon EVAR!.... so I'm gonna punch you right after you took down the JLA! He-UCK!"
yeah, he's pretty much always been that bad@$$ed. remember this is a guy with no superpowers that regularly brought the titans to their knees by himself.
for more of his ingenuity go read some of the Outsiders. he's awesome.
He doesn't have "no superpowers." He definitely has Regen going for him. Not to mention that he's an enhanced human. His equipment defnitely helps out protecting him from damage as well.
PirateNinja
03/07/2006, 19:05
Yes. The Flash would run into his sword.
And Green Lantern would try to punch him.
Really, that makes sense!
GreenLantern73
03/07/2006, 19:07
Part of the drugs Slade took allow him to use 90% of his brain & enhanced his reflexes, speed & strength (though he can't lift a car or anything).
CornsilkSW
03/07/2006, 19:10
yeah, i for got about the regeneration... it's almost like having no powers though. *shrugs*
Darth Sabre
03/07/2006, 19:12
He's pretty bad arse, but it's easy to see why some people had a problem with how he took out the JLA (particularly GL and Flash who are JLA "A Team" material).
Rurouni KJS
03/07/2006, 19:14
Flash didn't run into the sword, because based on the direction and speed he was moving and the position of the blade, he would've been sliced in two. What really happened (but the artist couldn't really show) was that D-stroke stabbed back as shown at the precise instant Wally would be in position to *be* stabbed thusly.
As for Green Lantern, he'd just seen Deathstroke counter every standard tactic his teammates used, so he decided to go for the very last thing Slade would expect a GL to try -- a glowing green fist in the face.
At least, that's how *I* would've scripted it, because Deathstroke really *is* that good, or close to it. His Heroclix fig is nowhere near his real self.
BuffDudley
03/07/2006, 19:15
I thought the same thing. The Deathstroke fight was awesome, and he basically took out the whole team very strategically. And yeah, sadly, the next thing I thought was, "Wow, this guy's like a 50 point fig in heroclix. Shouldn't he be a lot more powerful?" Although, I must admit that I like his current figure a lot, but after seeing just one battle of him in a comic, I think he deserves more than what he was given in clix form.
Terman8er
03/07/2006, 19:20
Part of the drugs Slade took allow him to use 90% of his brain & enhanced his reflexes, speed & strength (though he can't lift a car or anything).
Since his strength, per Geoff Johns, is rated in the "tons" (that's plural by the way) he "can" lift a car. he has kicked in a safe door so...
As for Flash "running" into the sword. Again, per Geff Johns, Slade is capable of short stints of true super-speed. Examples of this include him moving through a revolving fan blade that, as soon as went through, blocked laser and automatic weapons fire completely, not letting any of it through. And he was injured at that point. And like Geoff said (I like referrencing him, can you tell?) if Wally and Slade were to run a race Slade would hang with him the first 10 feet or so. Thus stabbing Flash after herding him is very plausible.
Also, as far as powers go, he has had 1/4 of his head blown off and recovered compeletly in 2 hours.
So he is, IMO, stronger, faster and more analytical than Captain America who is considered the best a human could ever be.
Now...the whole Kyle incident? Total rubbish...can't argue for that horse poop!
Deathstroke is good. Very good. Not that good. He can take on the times of Batman, Nightwing, or Captain America without breaking a sweat, is about tied with Batgirl, give or take, but no way should he have posed a threat to Green Lantern or Flash. Meltzer had no idea what to do with those two, and shouldn't have included them in that scene.
What really happened (but the artist couldn't really show) was that D-stroke stabbed back as shown at the precise instant Wally would be in position to *be* stabbed thusly.
Impossible. Flash was moving at super speed. Deathstroke cannot move at super speed. To Flash, the sword wasn't even in motion at the time.
As for Green Lantern, he'd just seen Deathstroke counter every standard tactic his teammates used, so he decided to go for the very last thing Slade would expect a GL to try -- a glowing green fist in the face.
No, even that would have made some sense (and would have worked). Instead, Meltzer had GL try to punch him SANS glowing green fist, which made no sense at all. Had Kyle used a glowing green fist, Deathstroke couldn't have caught it or broken his hand, because the energy field surrounding it would have been impenetrable by anything Deathstroke could do to it, like trying to crush Superman's hand.
EvilHamsterMan
03/07/2006, 19:25
Kyle surrounds himself in a protective barrier when he fights. This barrier is capable of taking hits from some of the more powerful JLA enemies and yet DS was still above to break his hand? Riiiiiiight.
Also super speed or not he wouldn't come close to being as fast as the flash. (who can run at multitudes of the speed of light -- BACKWARDS!) Deathstroke should have been pummeled even before he realised Wally had even moved.
As for Flash "running" into the sword. Again, per Geff Johns, Slade is capable of short stints of true super-speed. Examples of this include him moving through a revolving fan blade that, as soon as went through, blocked laser and automatic weapons fire completely, not letting any of it through. And he was injured at that point. And like Geoff said (I like referrencing him, can you tell?) if Wally and Slade were to run a race Slade would hang with him the first 10 feet or so. Thus stabbing Flash after herding him is very plausible.
That's all bull. Wally can accelerate from zero to near light speed in under a second, no way could Slade keep up with that for even a milisecond.
SaferSephiroth
03/07/2006, 19:34
IC was a high end showing. Batgirl is a low end showing. Somewhere inbetween, is the guy who beats Batman, or kicks Hal in the junk, or - okay the Wonder Woman incident was pretty bad too.
But he's 10 times faster'n stronger than a normal man, with a slight healing factor and some serious brainpower.
EvilHamsterMan
03/07/2006, 19:38
IC was a high end showing. Batgirl is a low end showing. Somewhere inbetween, is the guy who beats Batman, or kicks Hal in the junk, or - okay the Wonder Woman incident was pretty bad too.
But he's 10 times faster'n stronger than a normal man, with a slight healing factor and some serious brainpower.
Brainpower and being "10 times faster'n stronger than a normal man" still won't save you from punches comming at you at a speed exceeding Mach 10.
Terman8er
03/07/2006, 19:39
That's all bull. Wally can accelerate from zero to near light speed in under a second, no way could Slade keep up with that for even a milisecond.
And yet THE authority on The Flash and Deathstroke disagrees with you. Odd...
PirateNinja
03/07/2006, 19:40
Meltzer portrayed the Flash as an idiot who simply ran into Deathstroke, throwing his fists. No. Wally is much smarter than let, let alone FASTER. To him, the sword would have come up in slow motion, if that.
Again, as mentioned by Ohoni, Green Lantern would have simply shot him. A simple blast from Kyle would put Deathstroke out of commission.
Honestly, it felt as Meltzer was TRYING to make Kyle look like an idiot that entire book...
I knew Slade was good, but I never knew he was that good.
I do think he used more precog or brain calculations with Flash than he used speed. As someone posted, I prejudged where the Flash would be.
As far as Green lantern, I wasn't sold. Only after the ring is depleted, should he try a stunt like that.
Terman8er
03/07/2006, 19:43
Again, I am NOT argueing the GL point but Flash was explained in Wizard magazine by Johns so...take that as you will.
SaferSephiroth
03/07/2006, 19:43
No one is arguing with you. Lantern was dumbed down, it was a high end showing (or low end, take your pick).
DarkCrisis
03/07/2006, 19:54
That whole story was stupid, actually. From the deaht of Sue, to who did it, to the Stroke fight.
Darth Sabre
03/07/2006, 19:58
That whole story was stupid, actually. From the deaht of Sue, to who did it, to the Stroke fight.
To each there own, I guess. But in the grander scheme of things it was a great story for what it accomplished. It opened the floodgates for the events we (or I am, anyway) are enjoying right now.
PirateNinja
03/07/2006, 20:00
Explain how you felt it was stupid? I'm simply curious as to your views.
SaferSephiroth
03/07/2006, 20:10
The stupid parts I found were that Flash is like, a kajillion times faster than light (don't give me encyclopedia junk, he evacuated a Korean city AFTER a nuke detonated), and that
1. Green Lantern would never engage in melee unless he amped himself
2. The ring only works for the owner, or if it's pledged or given.
But that aside, it in no way takes away from Deathstroke's baditude. He's a guy who consistently is a threat to big name superheroes.
I'm betting DC doesn't like it because a popular female character in the DCU got killed (and raped), and another female killed her for reasons people refuse to try to understand (she's had previous incidents of being mentally unstable, it wasn't random). People were upset with the ending cause it didn't spell things out for the reader. You have to actually think for a second to see that it wasn't random and stupid.
"But she said she was just going to knock Sue out, why did she bring a flamethrower?"
Just because she's crazy and doesn't want to take responsibility for the murder. Read in between the lines.
DarkCrisis
03/07/2006, 20:17
Explain how you felt it was stupid? I'm simply curious as to your views.
Look back what did any of it set up? It could all have been done without the death of Sue by Jean Loring. Plus let us not forget how world class stupid it was to have Jean do it.
Oh yea and all the master detectives of the JLA couldnt figure out that Jean torched Sue with a Flamethrower... which she apparnetly "Carries for emergencies". And where did she get that thing anyways?
Not to mentioned the "after-math stuff with Max Lord turnig out to be "evil" and the death of Ted Kord. All of which could have been done with out to tell the story.
The actual Crisis stuff has been great but the build up stuff? Especially ID Crisis was LAME and unneeded.
Yeah, the GL part was lame. But Flash was reasonable. Slade has been known before to be able to punch the Flash in mid-run. He has incredibly fast reflexes, brain power, and quickness on the draw in general. He set off the bombs, anticipated where Flash would move, and moved his sword right as Flash was about to reach him. Sure, Flash can go at lightspeed, but he can't do that constantly. I'm not sure the actual DCU reason for this (either thinking time needed or maybe the Speed Force) but it would make Flash a ridiculous and boring character. In this case, he had to dumb it down so he could think while running and also probably because he didn't want to split Deathstroke and whoever else he happened to run into in half.
DarkCrisis
03/07/2006, 20:21
I'm betting DC doesn't like it because a popular female character in the DCU got killed (and raped), and another female killed her for reasons people refuse to try to understand (she's had previous incidents of being mentally unstable, it wasn't random). People were upset with the ending cause it didn't spell things out for the reader. You have to actually think for a second to see that it wasn't random and stupid.
"But she said she was just going to knock Sue out, why did she bring a flamethrower?"
Just because she's crazy and doesn't want to take responsibility for the murder. Read in between the lines.
Jeans reason was stupid. "I want my husband back" Al she had to do was tell him. All he did was pine for her.
And she "didnt have a history" she like had a break down once in some issue no one remembers.
The point of a good mystery story is to leave clues for the readers. And this lacked that. They shoe-horned Jean in just to make ther heroes scared which could have been done a different way.
And relying on "the character is crazy thus the randomness" is a horrible way to write a character. Heck, Joker is "crazy" but he does things to show a point.
Rurouni KJS
03/07/2006, 20:23
Meltzer portrayed the Flash as an idiot who simply ran into Deathstroke, throwing his fists. No. Wally is much smarter than let, let alone FASTER. To him, the sword would have come up in slow motion, if that.
If he could SEE the sword. But DStroke brought it up at an angle which Wally couldn't see it. Lightspeed or not, he still needs to use his eyes.
PirateNinja
03/07/2006, 20:27
Not always true. Some people are simply crazy and do crazy things for the sake of being crazy.
You are right, though. All she had to do was ask for him back.
Besides, didn't SHE want the divorce in the first place?
One could argue, though, that she wanted the feel of him fearing for her and protecting her from unknown threats, like the golden days.
tsundstrom
03/07/2006, 20:43
OK, long ago I made the decision that in order to enjoy comics I would have to suspend belief and let myself get drawn into these amazingly fantastic stories that aren't real. I think I was eight. =)
I think the uber critical fans need to do the same, but on a different level. The DC Universe if fundamentally flawed, in that it is REALLY difficult to come up with stories that have any hint of believability when every member of the JLA has godly powers that make simple "bad guy encounters the JLA" stories nearly impossible to tell. I have this problem with a guy like Superman...I mean he's f'ing SUPERMAN. How can I relate to him saving Lois time and time again? I mean he's the most powerful hero in the universe. I think that context, which nearly all the JLA has been exposed to over time, makes it hard to keep telling stories that have any meaning.
Enter: Identity Crisis. I can suspend belief for a little bit and see Deathstroke, having the backing and shared resources of Dr. Light and the Calculator, pulling off a serious ### kicking on some of the weaker JLA members. Why? Because for the first time in years I give a damn about these characters and realize that maybe they aren't so invincible after all...in addition to the repeatedly driven point that their family and friends are constantly in danger...it's nice to see the heroes themselves have a fight with something not universally all powerful or cosmic like Darkseid or the Star Conqueror.
Sure there are exceptions, and those exceptions are my favorites...the Batman stories and Green Arrow types that certainly aren't on a godlike scale of super powers. But for far too long I think it's been nearly impossible to put much weight into any Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, etc. "threat" because when it comes down to it, are those threats really a big deal to these godly heroes?
So I say go ahead and take that liberty writers of the DCU. I like seeing the JLA get knocked around from time to time. I like seeing that they are vulnerable and not just through family (although IC certainly showed plenty of that). I like seeing that a guy like deathstroke could outwit a group of heroes that have long taken their superiority to the competition for granted.
That being said, I'd love to see a new Deathstroke fig =)
Thomas
Spideyfan29
03/07/2006, 21:07
That whole story was stupid, actually. From the deaht of Sue, to who did it, to the Stroke fight.
I agree with you on the murder mystery part. But I think the real point of that entire miniseries was the JLA/Batman/mindwipe stuff. It created a lot of internal strife and general distrust between the heroes. This really helps the characters seem more real and 3 dimensional.
BoyGenius 1991
03/07/2006, 21:25
I really wish no one had mentioned slade's fight with the justice league, I really liked it, at least until someone had to burst my bubble and say kyle would never try to punch deathstroke in the face, which he would not. Jean killing sue was utter bullshiite, she did leave ray, and I have the feeling that this is one death they won't undo.
I can't believe ralph didn't bash dr. light's head in with hawkman's mace back up on the space station. I know I would have, the mindwipe thing was a terrible idea, either kill him, or blast his carcass into space, that way, you are not killing him, he unfortunately suffocated to death boo hoo. But leaving him alive after what he did to sue? that tells all the villains out there that the wives of the justice league are fair game. how is dr. light nowadays? is he hanging out in "prison" being fed and clothed on the state's dollar?
SPOILER BELOW
In villains united when cat-man gets all holier than thou with green arrow, I was so angry, he said green arrow had no right to wipe dr. light's mind. does that mean he thinks it's okay that dr. light raped sue? does he think the heroes should have rules of engagement? the villains sure as hell don't, if the heroes enacted a code of any kind, the villians will truly have won.
ahhh, that was a good rant, thanks for letting me vent
durrin00
03/07/2006, 21:25
i was under the impression that Kyle choked. That he had watched the rest of his team go down and since the ring works on willpower and he was scared, that he ended up giving Deathstroke a chance based on his hesitation.
deadshot042
03/07/2006, 21:32
If Flash had already been moving at accelerated speeds Deathstroke would have been beaten easily, but Wally only had a milisecond to accelerate next to Deathstroke. His mind takes a few seconds to accelerate with his body (reference=Flash novel). So he wouldn't have expected it to be coming and his reactions would not be what they normally are. That's why Deathstroke started the battle with all the JLA stationary, more to his advantage.
Also Wally wasn't looking down where the sword was being swung at him.
Rokk_Krinn
03/07/2006, 21:40
And yet THE authority on The Flash and Deathstroke disagrees with you. Odd...
No, a writer - an authority of types but not THE authority - of Flash (and really not a writer of Deathstroke at all), gave his explanations in defense. That's not quite the same. I would say Mark Waid is a greater Flash authority than Geoff - and I like Geoff a lot - and I haven't seen him coming out there saying, "Oh, yeah. Deathstroke can do all those things and more." Geez, a guy's off a book for a few years and suddenly the best Flash writer of the modern era is forgotten. ;)
DarkCrisis
03/07/2006, 21:47
The only thing Deathstroke excells at is sleeping with 15yr old girls....
deadshot042
03/07/2006, 21:57
The only thing Deathstroke excells at is sleeping with 15yr old girls....
It's better than raping Sue Dibney.
And he is a bad guy, do I need to underline and bold the word BAD.
Spideyfan29
03/07/2006, 21:59
The only thing Deathstroke excells at is sleeping with 15yr old girls....
wait, really?
DarkCrisis
03/07/2006, 22:00
wait, really?
Terra.
SaferSephiroth
03/07/2006, 22:03
16 year old Terra, but who's keeping track?
Spideyfan29
03/07/2006, 22:34
Terra.
ew! did he put something in her drink?
SaferSephiroth
03/07/2006, 22:37
Don't think so...
commiefascist
03/07/2006, 22:51
when?
SaferSephiroth
03/07/2006, 22:52
The Judas Contract (or was it Janus?)
PirateNinja
03/07/2006, 23:01
Judas.
However, heroes are heroes. They are heroes because they have standards. Lines that you do not cross. No matter how hard it is, when you put on a costume you become responsible for your actions.
Us, as mere human beings, may let our primal instincts take over. But as heroes, they have responsiblites to uphold the law. Boygenius, you obviously don't understand what being a hero is about.
It is not about vengence, despite what some may say. It is about justice.
The day the heroes stop playing by the rules is the day the villains win.
deadshot042
03/07/2006, 23:23
I believe that 16 years old is more than old enough to consent.
I'm 15 and I think I've got a better prespective on this kind of issue than most adults here. We young'uns know a lot more than you credit us for and by the time we're sixteen we're mature enough to make personal desicions, whether they involve sleeping with a super villain twice our age or not.
Rurouni KJS
03/07/2006, 23:45
I believe that 16 years old is more than old enough to consent.
I'm 15 and I think I've got a better prespective on this kind of issue than most adults here. We young'uns know a lot more than you credit us for and by the time we're sixteen we're mature enough to make personal desicions, whether they involve sleeping with a super villain twice our age or not.
But Slade is wayyyy more than twice your age. :)
On a serious note, remember that we older folks were once your age and remember it well. We most certainly have a better perspective on this issue (and a lot of others), because we know it from both sides.
Note: the Flash is not a cold-hearted killer. Yes, he can move at near-light speeds. Yes, he is the fastest man alive. But sending the mass of his body at near-light speeds towards another body (Deathstroke) would have turned Slade into a fine red spray. Slade used this fact - that Wally would slow down - along with the bombs and the reflexes in order to stop him.
Second Note: Slade no longer "uses 90 percent of his brain." Why? That would make him borderline retarded. An average human being uses 100 percent of his or her brain 100 percent of the time - there's no dead, unused areas up there. It's an old myth. Now, some humans use their brains more effectively, and have more wrinkles in the grey matter. That's a different matter.
SomaCruz42
03/08/2006, 00:09
Second Note: Slade no longer "uses 90 percent of his brain." Why? That would make him borderline retarded. An average human being uses 100 percent of his or her brain 100 percent of the time - there's no dead, unused areas up there. It's an old myth. Now, some humans use their brains more effectively, and have more wrinkles in the grey matter. That's a different matter.
Heh heh... after reading that, I can only think about Deadpool (who is a Deathstroke parody, by the way...)
deadshot042
03/08/2006, 00:12
But Slade is wayyyy more than twice your age. :)
On a serious note, remember that we older folks were once your age and remember it well. We most certainly have a better perspective on this issue (and a lot of others), because we know it from both sides.
Maybe I shouldn't have said "better perspective", but I meant to say that it does not make him "evil". Terra definitely consented and definitely understood what was going on.
If she had been 10 I would have a serious problem with it.
Maybe I shouldn't have said "better perspective", but I meant to say that it does not make him "evil". Terra definitely consented and definitely understood what was going on.
If she had been 10 I would have a serious problem with it.
Of course it doesn't make him evil neccisarrily, it certainly makes him sleazy though. Not to mention she's 16 years old. How many 16 year old girls have you ever met that you thought you could trust when it comes to their sex life? Especially a sex life involving a man who's more then twice her age. You can get consent by manipulating a naive young girl, that's why there are laws against that sort of thing. Not that all 16 year old girls are that foolish, just that enough of them are that it would be a problem.
And yet THE authority on The Flash and Deathstroke disagrees with you. Odd...
Geoff Johns isn't the authority on the Flash, Mark Waid is. Geoff Johns doesn't know Wally hardly at all, he just likes the Pre-Crisis Rogues. There's simply no way that Deathroke could keep up with someone who can reach light speed in less than a second for any distance. By the time the impulse to move reaches his foot, Wally's already in another state.
Honestly, it felt as Meltzer was TRYING to make Kyle look like an idiot that entire book...
It's a popular position. Only Morrison and Ellis really respect the guy, which I don't really mind, since I respect them much more than I do Meltzer or Johns.
1. Green Lantern would never engage in melee unless he amped himself
2. The ring only works for the owner, or if it's pledged or given.
1. Agreed, all it would take is a green gauntlet to nullify the attack Slade made.
2. Also true, in fact, the ring ONLY works for Kyle Rayner, nobody else. This is hardcoded into it. Technically his blood relative or Hal Jordan could also work it, but neither was around at the time.
The point of a good mystery story is to leave clues for the readers. And this lacked that. They shoe-horned Jean in just to make ther heroes scared which could have been done a different way.
This is the best point made. As a self-contained murder mystery it fell flat on it's face because it did not set up the clues for the reader properly. I'm not saying I should have been able to guess it, I'm pretty terrible at that sort of thing, but it should have worked without knowing Jean's obscure backstory.
But I think the real point of that entire miniseries was the JLA/Batman/mindwipe stuff. It created a lot of internal strife and general distrust between the heroes. This really helps the characters seem more real and 3 dimensional.
That was the worst part of the whole mess. Personally I would have prefered if they had gone "mind wipe? Seems like the only reasonable alternative short of murder, good for you guys." Hell, in the first arc of Morrison's JLA they mind-wiped the entire White Martian race, and did it again some 20-30 issues later, without any such agonizing over it. It was Batman's idea I think, and Superman was all "cool". Are they racist now or something?
i was under the impression that Kyle choked. That he had watched the rest of his team go down and since the ring works on willpower and he was scared, that he ended up giving Deathstroke a chance based on his hesitation.
Kyle doesn't choke. He's saved the world a hundred times and contained both suns exploding and suns imploding. Deathstroke ain't got nothing on him.
However, heroes are heroes. They are heroes because they have standards. Lines that you do not cross. No matter how hard it is, when you put on a costume you become responsible for your actions.
Eh, there are lines, but the only line they can't cross is "are we better off without them than with them?" Killing a villain most certainly does NOT make you "no better than him". He's a guy that kills for fun, you're killing him to keep him from killing others. You're better than him. Now individual heroes can make their own rules, their own lines they won't cross, but as long as a character does more good than harm, he's still a hero, whether he kills or not. Police kill all the time, and Jason's right, Bruce's single biggest sin is that Joker is still alive to kill again.
As for Deathstroke, he doesn't have to sleep with little girls to make him evil. He murders people for money. That's plenty. Also, he puts carcinogenic xenomaterials into his daughter's eyesocket. That's pretty evil too.
zero_cochrane
03/08/2006, 03:46
I believe that 16 years old is more than old enough to consent.It's not just about age, but about the balance of power in a relationship.
For example, it is not okay for an adult teacher to have a sexual or romantic relationship with a student, even if that student is at the legal age of consent. There is an inherent abuse of power in that relationship. Although I haven't read the comics involved, I can certainly imagine how the circumstances might be analogous with Slade and Terra.
X-Inferno
03/08/2006, 05:34
I haven't read it... but just chiming in my 2 cents.
It really annoys me when writers put flash into situations that he would never ever fall for... The guy moves at speeds of light... obviously his brain moves at light speed as well, other wise he'd be dead because he would hit a wall, or a branch, or a friggin stone in the road! Everything around him would look like a picture frozen in time, when he's moving at his top speeds. I don't care how fast Deathstroke lifted his sword... flash would have dodged it.
This one of the fundamental problems with Flash as a character... If writers wrote him to his full potential, he would be near unstoppable!!
well, if the writers wrote him as he should be in theory given his power, he would be a god. You have to bend the rules and write him with some sort of fault or else you wouldn't have an interesting situation at all. This I can buy. He was running through the bombs, explosions going on all over the place and he ran into a problem.
X-Inferno
03/08/2006, 07:10
here's some irony... Flash can dodge bombs, but he can't dodge a sword! :rolleyes:
It's like in tron on those cycles. you move around the explosions but when you hit a dead end with a sword sticking out of it.. there's no where else you can go.
Then again, he is the flash and could have simply vibrated his way through anything.... though wally has always had some trouble getting that down without making the item explode.
PirateNinja
03/08/2006, 07:41
Sure, she was 16 years old and "willing", but that doesn't mean he didn't manipulate her and take advantage of her situation. She was a screwed up kid that got taken advantage of.
Just because she was 16 doesn't mean she is like us, Deadshot. Ever read that arc?
Yeah, Terra was a screwed up kid...
It's like in tron on those cycles. you move around the explosions but when you hit a dead end with a sword sticking out of it.. there's no where else you can go.
Aside from stopping, which Flash can do. On a dime.
Then again, he is the flash and could have simply vibrated his way through anything.... though wally has always had some trouble getting that down without making the item explode.
He used to. He fixed that years ago. He probably still CAN make things explode, but he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to.
Umm...I happen to think that the HeroClix Deathstroke is just dandy...especially for his points. No need for a redo, IMO.
I do think we deserve a Terra REV, however, or at least another version of her without the Titans TA...or even the Calculator TA.
I haven't read Identity Crisis, so I cannot comment on specifics...but Geoff Johns definitely has "favorite" characters that he "gets right" and others for which his interpretations "fall flat"...I guess I'm lucky that most of characters I read fall on his "good side" (JSA) rather than his "bad side" (post-Wolfman Titans, and any subsequent hanges to the Wolfman Titans.).
absolutvt69
03/08/2006, 10:17
Umm...I happen to think that the HeroClix Deathstroke is just dandy...especially for his points. No need for a redo, IMO.
I do think we deserve a Terra REV, however, or at least another version of her without the Titans TA...or even the Calculator TA.
I haven't read Identity Crisis, so I cannot comment on specifics...but Geoff Johns definitely has "favorite" characters that he "gets right" and others for which his interpretations "fall flat"...I guess I'm lucky that most of characters I read fall on his "good side" (JSA) rather than his "bad side" (post-Wolfman Titans, and any subsequent hanges to the Wolfman Titans.).
Well now that Deathstroke is technically retired so he would be due for a remake. I could see a ~100 point version of him with the Calculator TA. I'm not a big comic book buff but I have read Identity Crisis and the fight with Deathstroke didn't seem that inplausible to me (although the Green Lantern complaints make sense). It seemed like to me he knew they were coming and had had time to plan and prepare while the heroes were caught a little off-guard. I mean we all know that Batman, with enough time to prepare, could potentially take out anyone so why can't Deathstroke do the same? As an aside this is why clix figures are so hotly debated sometimes. It's hard to make an accurate dial when you have a character looking insanely strong in one book and getting taken out fairly easily in another. If the source material isn't consistent, how can the clix version be?
K'un L'un Kid
03/08/2006, 10:54
That was the worst part of the whole mess. Personally I would have prefered if they had gone "mind wipe? Seems like the only reasonable alternative short of murder, good for you guys." Hell, in the first arc of Morrison's JLA they mind-wiped the entire White Martian race, and did it again some 20-30 issues later, without any such agonizing over it. It was Batman's idea I think, and Superman was all "cool". Are they racist now or something?
I was under the impression that the issue wasn't so much that the League wiped Dr. Light's memories as much as it was that they altered his personality. Where would the line be drawn on such an issue? If it's okay to turn Light from a cunningly crazed supervillain into an incompetent crazed supervillain, why not transform all of the villains into peaceful, law-abiding citizens?
I think that was Batman's issue until he himself got mindwiped. Then his issue was that he got mindwiped.
For the most part, I liked Identity Crisis warts and all. My only little problem with the retcons involved was with Dr. Light's retroactive violation of Sue. The Dibneys served for several years with the Justice League Europe/International, a team who had a "Dr. Light" on the roster for a good number of issues. Upon meeting Kimiyo Hoshi (the fourth Dr. Light), I'd think that Sue would find it in horrible taste that some Japanese chick was flouncing around in the costume and codename of the man who assaulted her.
Maybe Zatanna altered Sue's memories too?
Rurouni KJS
03/08/2006, 19:34
It really annoys me when writers put flash into situations that he would never ever fall for... The guy moves at speeds of light... obviously his brain moves at light speed as well, other wise he'd be dead because he would hit a wall, or a branch, or a friggin stone in the road! Everything around him would look like a picture frozen in time, when he's moving at his top speeds. I don't care how fast Deathstroke lifted his sword... flash would have dodged it.
This one of the fundamental problems with Flash as a character... If writers wrote him to his full potential, he would be near unstoppable!!
Think of it this way: if everything looks like a picture frozen in time to him, then it could be that much more difficult to notice when things change. He's paying very close attention chiefly to where he's stepping next, or to the location/trajectory of the bullets/debris he's snatching from the air. With all that stuff to juggle, he undoubtedly -- and often -- misses other important details, which is how comparative slowpokes like Capt. Cold and co. can give him fits.
Johns also took an interesting tack on his powers -- that they're not "on" 24-7. He can still be surprised and he has to sometimes dial-down his enhanced perception in favor of actually moving.
BoyGenius 1991
03/08/2006, 20:34
Judas.
However, heroes are heroes. They are heroes because they have standards. Lines that you do not cross. No matter how hard it is, when you put on a costume you become responsible for your actions.
Right, you are responsible to, for example, bring your wife's rapist to justice, which ralph did not do
Us, as mere human beings, may let our primal instincts take over. But as heroes, they have responsiblites to uphold the law. Boygenius, you obviously don't understand what being a hero is about.
heroes are human too, ralph gets his powers from a soft drink, he is no different from you or me, and will also get "primal instincts" as you said; and if some deranged freak with a dangerous weapon rapes your wife and you catch him red-handed, you are legally permitted to kill him, as long as you do not break any other laws in the process
I think being a hero is using your powers for the good of others, such as executing degenerate scum like dr. light to prevent them from ever inflicting that kind of pain on anyone again
It is not about vengence, despite what some may say. It is about justice.
vengeance is exacting punishment on someone for a transgression, justice is exacting punishment for a transgression, justice can also apply to rewarding someone for a commendable act; they are the same thing
The day the heroes stop playing by the rules is the day the villains win.
The day heroes let villains commit crimes unpunished is the day the villains win
well, that's what I think, and you are free to disagree with it.
- BoyGenius
Hated it. You can't have a murder mystery with out a reasonable amount of clues for the reader to solve it. Even worse, Identity Crisis explicitly deceived the reader by not protraying the original events properly (compare Sue's Death in the first issue to the "flashback" in the final issue - different things happen).
Other plot holes:
- In the final issue Sue is shown bleeding out her ear when she dies. No one conducting the investigation found this?
- Jean entered through the phone and killed Sue. No one checked phone records and saw a call from Jean that corresponded exactly with time of Death?
- If Dr. Light didn't kill Sue, AND didn't remember attacking Sue the first time, then why the hell would he freak out when she died and seek protection from the League?
- So there were just empty boots (ala Top Secret) behind the door in Jean's house when she hung herself (and how did she hang herself without anything to kick off of again)?
- How did Jean get in touch with Calculator again (I may be forgetting this part), and how stupid can he be to not put two and two togehter when the Jack Drake hit went bad and there's suddenly a huge superhero presence on the ground? Especially when it was known that Superheroes were freaking out after their families were being targeted (and it's not like Jean's connect to the Atom wasn't known).
- DC's Secret Identity issues continued to devolve with this one. For a long time hardly anyone in the superhero community knew Batman's identity, now everyone does? Still not convinced Jean should have known about Lois and Jack Drake (Metzler made the same mistakes on Green Arrow).
- If Jean sent the notes and the gun, how is it possible that in the interveneing time (implied to be at least a week) no one could forensically tie them to her?
- Speaking of timing, just how long did this autopsy take again?
- Needless to say the "Murder She Wrote" slip-up followed by reveal from Jean was lame.
I'm sure there's a lot I forgot, but man that's a tonne of holes no one has reasonably explained away yet.
DarkCrisis
03/09/2006, 11:53
What Rouge said.
But lets not forget that DC already said they would be making retcons to fit thier story.
Like Max Lord. "Yea he's a cyborg but we needed a human for this story so we retconed it"
Aeturnus
03/09/2006, 14:57
Hated it. You can't have a murder mystery with out a reasonable amount of clues for the reader to solve it. Even worse, Identity Crisis explicitly deceived the reader by not protraying the original events properly (compare Sue's Death in the first issue to the "flashback" in the final issue - different things happen).
The owner of my local comic book venue solved it pretty easily. :)
I haven't read Identity Crisis, so I cannot comment on specifics...but Geoff Johns definitely has "favorite" characters that he "gets right" and others for which his interpretations "fall flat"...I guess I'm lucky that most of characters I read fall on his "good side" (JSA) rather than his "bad side" (post-Wolfman Titans, and any subsequent hanges to the Wolfman Titans.).
This is true. Geoff Johns doesn't care about Bart people.
He's quite clearly a Silver Age person, he only deals with Silver Age characters or earlier (as concepts, often he updates them with new people behind the costume), and if he ends up with post-Crisis character he does his best to revert them to their nearest pre-Crisis equivalent.
It seemed like to me he knew they were coming and had had time to plan and prepare while the heroes were caught a little off-guard. I mean we all know that Batman, with enough time to prepare, could potentially take out anyone so why can't Deathstroke do the same?
It's not even that he DID take them out, I can buy that. He's got that much cred. It's more the stupid WAY he took them out that bothered me. If, for example, his first action was to use sub-sonic weapons to disrupt Green Lantern's concentration and then had KOed him before he could react, I could have bought that without blinking. Similar tactics would have worked against Flash as well, as would blinding light. I just don't buy that the tacticvs he used, and the way GL and Flash reacted to them, were at all plausible. Grant Morrison came up with dozens of ways to take down each JLAer, Meltzer should have given him a call for advice.
It's hard to make an accurate dial when you have a character looking insanely strong in one book and getting taken out fairly easily in another. If the source material isn't consistent, how can the clix version be?
The material IS fairly consistant. People point to comic examples and say "well this character took out that one in this issue, so therefore there's evidence that he's stronger". Not usually. Usually editing is better than that. Usually, when a supposedly weaker character takes out a supposedly stronger one, there ARE extinuating circumstances.
For example, over the course of the Nightwing series, Nightwing "beats" Deathstroke not once, not twice, but three times. Does this mean that Nightwing is better than Deathstroke? Hell no, and he makes this quite clear in his text boxes. In each encounter he won by having an objective that did NOT include KOing Slade, and he managed to accomplish this objective by using his agility to stay alive long enough to complete it, but in each of these cases if he pushed the fight to a straight brawl he would have been crushed.
This must be taken into account when designing dials. It would justify Nightwing having high DVs and maneuverability, but would not mean that he should have a good chance of KOing Slade (although perhaps with a lot of REALLY lucky rolls in his favor he might).
If a character happens to get punk KOed from time to time, it happens, bad luck on his part. If he happens to get very lucky and punk KO someone out of his league, it happens. You have to look at HOW it happens, what the circumstances were, to detemine the event's value when designing dials. When dealing with a comic character with decades old history, and when fitting that character into the context of a larger comic universe, you just have to take the long view.
I was under the impression that the issue wasn't so much that the League wiped Dr. Light's memories as much as it was that they altered his personality. Where would the line be drawn on such an issue?
They altered the White Martians too, they were all bloodthirsty predators, and they turned them all into like janitors and waiters and whatever normal, mundane, well adjusted people they wanted.
If it's okay to turn Light from a cunningly crazed supervillain into an incompetent crazed supervillain, why not transform all of the villains into peaceful, law-abiding citizens?
No good reason, aside from that it takes away from the drama for the reader when villains are taken care of so easilly. In the comic world though, they REALLY should when they can.
It's like in the latest issue of Batman, I fully agree with Jason, why IS Joker still alive? There's no GOOD reason. That "crossing a line" stuff is bull. Batman leaving him alive makes him directly complicit in the murders of hundreds. At the very least he should be in the Phantom Zone or something. Why not? Drama. Batman, the book, needs the Joker to be around, even if it makes no rational sense for him to still be around if you look at it as a real world populated by real people.
Maybe Zatanna altered Sue's memories too?
Probably, now, if only she could alter ours. . .
Think of it this way: if everything looks like a picture frozen in time to him, then it could be that much more difficult to notice when things change. He's paying very close attention chiefly to where he's stepping next, or to the location/trajectory of the bullets/debris he's snatching from the air. With all that stuff to juggle, he undoubtedly -- and often -- misses other important details, which is how comparative slowpokes like Capt. Cold and co. can give him fits.
Johns also took an interesting tack on his powers -- that they're not "on" 24-7. He can still be surprised and he has to sometimes dial-down his enhanced perception in favor of actually moving.
This is true, and even goes back to the Waid days. He CAN slow his perceptions to effectively freeze time, but nobody could live like that 24-7. Even in a combat situation he has to maintain a reasonable level of time perception. Still, I think he would have been better prepared for something like Slade's little trick.
Default
Hated it. You can't have a murder mystery with out a reasonable amount of clues for the reader to solve it.
Yeah. I'm re-reading Hush, and it did a much better job of laying out the groundwork for the reader.
- If Dr. Light didn't kill Sue, AND didn't remember attacking Sue the first time, then why the hell would he freak out when she died and seek protection from the League?
That one can at least be attributed to his sub-conscious partly remembering, and therefore worrying him even if he wasn't quite conscious of the change. His blocks were breaking down.
- How did Jean get in touch with Calculator again (I may be forgetting this part), and how stupid can he be to not put two and two togehter when the Jack Drake hit went bad and there's suddenly a huge superhero presence on the ground? Especially when it was known that Superheroes were freaking out after their families were being targeted (and it's not like Jean's connect to the Atom wasn't known).
I could see her getting in touch using various hero and villain community ties. It'd take some time, but doable. I agree about Calculator thouh, if he's half as smart as they make him out to be he'd know exactly who everyone in the Bat family is by now, the trail is pretty easy once you nail any one of them.
- DC's Secret Identity issues continued to devolve with this one. For a long time hardly anyone in the superhero community knew Batman's identity, now everyone does?
Wuite a few do, at least. Outside the Bat family (excluding Huntress and Spoiler), the entire mid-Morrison JLA knows who he is, Booster knows because he's a time taveler, and beyond that I'm not sure.
[pquote]
- If Jean sent the notes and the gun, how is it possible that in the interveneing time (implied to be at least a week) no one could forensically tie them to her?[/quote]
Eh, it's unlikely she had fingerprints and dna on record.
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