Stats: what they do or what they can do???

[CarlosMucha]

The new no flyer Thor comes with a question what looks like a not big deal but it is.

How the heroclix stats must be created:

1: for what they characteres in comics do?
2: For what the characteres in comics CAN do?
3: another option?
I'm not mad with the new Thor , but.. is ok if a fig like this Thor who can fly they made him as a walking fig just for be some points less?

soo what do you think?

[Iron Ham]

The clix need to represent what the character does, but also what it can do. I bring your attention to Spiderman, or Wolverine. Both have taken out big names and fought the Hulk, etc. So they CAN be on his level. However, they are not regularly doing those feats, so they get more of a what they do normally dial with a bit of maximum potential thrown in.

[XocgX]

Well, it's like Ult Thor w/out Super Strength...when they designed him, he had yet to exhibit the power....but he has by now...so it's a valid point from WK's perspective...but to deny THOR FLIGHT?????? Kinda poop.

[saturnflight]

If Thor didn't fly throughout the entire run of this costume, then don't give him flight. It should represent a time period, not a complete recap of every power. Like Dark Phoenix. Did she lose her powers halfway through as Jean took hold in every fight? Naw! But it makes the dial interesting to reflect that one storyline.

[ohoni]

I voted "what they do" but not in the strictest sense. I DO think that while Superman CAN run up to every character on the board in a single turn and smash their skulls into the ionsphere in a single turn, that doesn't really reflect the character, so it shouldbe be a part of the dial.

On the other hand, I don't think that dials should, in general, be too heavilly micromanaged, in the sense of "well, this character would do this at the begining of a fight, this in the middle, and this in the end, so while he COULD do the best of those things at any time, it'll go just here instead". For example, if a character starts most comic fights out with kid gloves and then DECIDES to ramp it up later (not a necessary component of his powers like Hulk's anger) then it's not a great idea to only have those capabilities at the end of his dial.

Some of that is fine too, but a little goes a long way, and there should always be an option of the character cutting lose right from the start.

[Darth Sabre]

Are we sure he doesn't fly? CT Thor was shown without a flight base, when he was first previewed. Is it possible that this figure is a paint master?

[CarlosMucha]

Are we sure he doesn't fly? CT Thor was shown without a flight base, when he was first previewed. Is it possible that this figure is a paint master?

tehy say in the chat what this Thor don't fly. when somebody ask why they say something like "This particular Thor just fight in land" or something.

[majinmagog]

To be fair, in the comics Thor doesn't actually fly. He throws his hammer and then grabs it. He throws it with such force that it pulls him through the air.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Don't get me started on Dr. Light...

[ohoni]

Or Colossal Boy, or RE Invisible Woman, or Sinister Kitty Pyde, etc.

[thepunisher27]

i hope thor doesnt fly that way chp can carry him around and give him an 18 defense =]

[Gargantua]

Having him not fly does take some of the ounch out of the RCE clicks that he has.

[whitesilence]

What they do.

Otherwise, it just gets messy.

You'd need a Prof X with 11 damage PB as he can KO anyone in one shot (other than with BF)

If it stays to what people DO do, then it's more fun, more comic accurate, and I'd say, generally a better game.

[First Lensman]

Some of these characters have histories dating back to the 1930s. Over time they have changed, some tremendously. I like that Wiz Kids is taking the time and care to make representations of these characters at different points in their histories. They are addressing some of my biggest pet peeves. For instance, I've always felt that the Rookie Superman in any REV should NOT have flight. When Superman was first created, he didn't fly -- he was able to "leap tall buildings in a single bound", but he wasn't able to fly. I have a reprint of one of the original Superman comics where he used his strength to bend a telephone pole and had it fling him into a stadium!!! Now, Wiz Kids IS making a non-flying Superman in the new Origin set! All I can say is THANK YOU, Wiz Kids!

Over the last 70 years, in order to keep characters interesting to all the fans, they have obtained new powers and abilities; or, they have learned how to do more with what they have. Batman started out as a stealthy detective with no powers. My feeling is that the starter Batman from Icons best represents him from this time. But, through his intelligence and use of technology, he has grown to the point where he could beat the snot out of Superman (albeit with Kryptonite gloves). His higher attack values on some of his figures are there not because he is stronger, but because he is intelligent enough to bring whatever is necessary to defeat an opponent to the battlefield.

Different representations for other characters are warranted because their mutations or their technology have changed them over time. Characters that fall into this category are most notably The Hulk, Spider-man, Iron Man, the X-Men and many, many others.

One figure, or even one REV(LE) in a set, cannot represent the whole history of these characters. So, Wiz Kids has made different versions in different sets. The best example is Wolverine -- There have been versions of: Wolverine, Berserker, Logan, Patch, James Howlett, Wolverine in SHIELD, Wolverine w/o Adamantium Skeleton, etc. No one could make one REV(LE) set that represents his whole history no matter how hard they try or how hard they argue.

My quibble with the clix that have been made is when Wiz Kids does an REV of a character that had no history or didn't really change much over time. My biggest for instance is that Doomsday should have been a single Unique.

The new trend of Action Packs that have figures from specific story lines is very exciting and I look forward to more in the future.

[stark's heir]

Great topic for discussion! (and a poll...)

[CarlosMucha]

Great topic for discussion! (and a poll...)

thanks!

(faster faster the poll only last 3 days! :p )

[Answerman]

I'm of the mind that most figs should have the stats of what a character can do.

That way we have the opportunity to play the characters in a manner we want, making us, (the player) the "writer" of the characters we're playing.

Having said that I do also appreciate seeing varients of characters based off the way that character acts.

[pyr66]

I think it should be a mix of both. They should make them comic accurate but give a little nudge towards what they can actually do that way we can choose how to play them.
I think Prof. X should have Physic Blast with some damage (maybe a 2 or 3?) but have Mind Control as well. That way the player has the choice of using Prof as he is written by just MC people or by using him for what he can do by knocking people down with his mind.

I think it might be cool to have the REV and Uniques be comic accurate and have the LE be what they CAN do. That way the LE's would be awesome.

[HCannonFodder]

I checked option 3, but I can sum up my reasoning in one word:

HUH?!?!?????

What is this?!? I don't understand!!!!

[Answerman]

To be fair, in the comics Thor doesn't actually fly. He throws his hammer and then grabs it. He throws it with such force that it pulls him through the air.

Not entirely true.

There have been times when THor was in the air and he threw Mjolnir away from him while he hovered.

The scene I recall was during the last run before the Reigning story arc began.

*sigh*

The Reigning would've been a great story line if it had't removed Thor from Marvel continuity for so long.

Jurgens really should've taken that story arc and either severely shortened it, or made it into a limited series like Earth X.

A great idea, and a decent story that inadvertantly ruined Thor, potentially forever.

I say that because It seemed to convince Marvel that Thor should never go back to looking like Thor.

[tyroclix]

With the REV set-up, I opted for both.

While most figures are too close in their REV design, I'd prefer having a Rookie being the early version, Exp being the usual version and the Vet being the uber-level.

If that wasn't an option I would have went with "What they do, do" (he-he).

Too many figures like V Legacy Batman makes the game lame and doesn't capture the source material well.

Sure Batman was uber when written by Loeb, but I don't see Loeb's work under the list of greatest Batman stories. Batman fights guys like Riddler, Penguin, thugs - he needs to be wiley and clever, not a 100+ point, 12 attack, 3 damage, 8 range figure.

Leave the fan-boy versions to the Dreams & Desires thread...

[Manchine]

Leave the fan-boy versions to the Dreams & Desires thread...

I think I am one Dreams and Desires person that doesn't do the whole Fan-boy thing.

[I Am The Game]

I'm in the camp of making the stats resemble what they do in the comics.

Take a look at the Wizard in the Official Marvel Handbooks. The profile says he has Super Strength. In truth, he uses antigravity to lift heavy objects and make them manoeverable, but if that was translated literally into clicks, he'd be carrying around the dumpster to waffle people with. He can manage it, but that's not at all how he fights.

I'd like the stats on a figure to tell a story. If there's a defining moment in a character's history, use it, and give us that story in the dial. Sinister's Exp Spider-Man does that. Seth gave us a Spidey from issues 229-230, when he fights the Juggernaut. He starts as a transporter, to carry Madame Web to a hospital. Spider-Man first tries to stop Juggernaut with webbing (Incapacitate), and then webs a wall in front of him (Barrier) that Juggy just tears down. Mid-dial, CCE shows Spidey unloading on Mr. Marko, trying to put a dent in him, and Super Strength covers Spidey throwing cars and the gas truck.

When they're well written, characters have tendencies. I want to see that in the dial too. Silver Surfer's a good example. He doesn't come in guns blazing, he's always going to turn the other cheek. He has to have a few Hulk-up clicks before getting really into it.

[StormX]

REVs: What they CAN do...on a regular basis. aka "This is what this character is normally capable of, not what he showed he can do in panel 4 of issue 47 of that spin-off series when time was flowing backwards and he had the magic pink bracelet of Curly, Moe, and Zaphod with the off-blue-but-not-really-purple-maybe-more-of-a-green-you'd-find-deep-in-the-ocean gem stones version."

Uniques: Special appearances of established characters exhibiting unsual showings(Black Suit superman, Scarlet Spider, etc.)

[Gargantua]

I think Prof. X should have Physic Blast with some damage (maybe a 2 or 3?) but have Mind Control as well. That way the player has the choice of using Prof as he is written by just MC people or by using him for what he can do by knocking people down with his mind.


Xavier (and Saturn Girl for that matter) are some of the biggest examples of Can Do-ers vs. Would Do-ers. I've always thought that Psychic Blast would be more appropriate for Xavier. Can he control another's mind? Of course, but he finds it morally repugnant to do so and therefore will only do it as an absolute last resort. To have it as his primary (and in most versions his only) attack is so counter to the character as to border on the ridiculous.

[SaferSephiroth]

I voted for what they can do. While I do like theme and having fun, there's the competitive aspect of the game. I don't feel it's right to deprive people wanting to play how they want to play.

[CarlosMucha]

wow I just see the total points! 190 votes. thanks for votes guys! see you in the next poll!

[Spider_Chris]

Personally, I think HeroClix will never accurately represent every character 100%, every time.
This, in itself is a mixed blessing.
By only representing a character in a certain part of their timeline, the options of gameplay are opened up more towards storylines and theme-based teams, rather than your typical "win-em-all team" with the same cheap powers, abilities and feats.
I can say from personal experience that playing with a theme is more fun than only playing to win.
The new Thor will be a powerhouse like the other Thors, so what's the big deal about him not flying?