The Trophy Room The 20 Best LE's of All Time (...so far)! Part 2 [Archive] - HeroClix Realms

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ol_Dut
01/11/2007, 10:27
http://www.hcrealms.com/gallery/data/500/MARVTU017_colorcvrb.jpg

So it’s come to this. We’re down to the top 10 spots on the list of The 20 Best LE’s of All Time (…so far) - Part Two! Some figures like Philip Masters, Maxwell Dillon, Sister Magdalena, and Dr. Jonathan Crane didn’t show up in the previous article which went over positions #20 through #11. Will they show up on today’s list? Heck no! But to find out just who did make the cut, click on “Read More”!

ol_Dut
01/11/2007, 10:33
A brief re-cap is perhaps in order for those who did not have a chance to read last week’s piece or those who just have a really short memory. Numbers 20 through 11 were as follows:

#20 – Little Sure Shot
#19 – Doctor Doom
#18 – Norman Osborne
#17 – Jessica Drew
#16 – Morlock Leader tied with The Atom
#15 – Clint Barton
#14 – Cain Marko
#13 – Kraven the Spider
#12 – Justice is Served! tied with Elektra Natchios
#11 – Etrigan tied with Daniel Ketch

For the full read on these pieces, click HERE (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=186964).

And, though it was said before, it’s perhaps worth repeating, there are a few caveats just so that we’re all on the same page.
1 – This list only considers pieces that have been released. Figures whose dials are known but that are not in circulation will not be ranked, because nothing about any piece can be verified until the piece can be examined first-hand. Or to put it another way, sometimes the figure gallery is wrong.
2 – Any figure designated as a LE will be considered an LE regardless of its ring color.
3 – A figure’s cost, in cash, trade value or points, does not directly correlate to its “goodness”. Neither does its rarity.
4 – I have attempted to be as objective as possible, but this list is nonetheless subjective.

And now, on with the show! But no skipping ahead, because that’s just cheating and I’ll know. Anyone who cheats will find Ororo Munroe in the top spot on the list and the real #1 will be removed via this cool new scroll-sensitive programming trick I learned taking classes at home in my jammies. Seriously.

#10 – Polaris (Mutant Mahem – based on REV Polaris, 78 points, Brotherhood) – Why is Polaris on the list? Because she’s got most of what makes LE Doctor Doom hit the list plus a little something extra: Running Shot. Early in the game her TA makes her a great taxi whose movement doesn’t rob from her team’s allotment of actions. Once in position to strike, her modified range with Pulse Wave should give her a very good chance of pulling off a single target PW for loads of damage. With an 18 defense if parked in hindering, she’s tough to hit and is scary beyond her point cost.

#9 – Roy Harper, Jr. (Legacy – Arsenal, 39 points, Police) – Not to be confused with Ray Parker, Jr., though that’s what I have come to call him, he’s another one of those delightful pieces that renders his REV almost completely irrelevant. For 39 points, Roy is a master of the running-gunning bush-push. Simply let him take a shot, and on the following turn push him to do it again making certain that he ends his Running Shot move in hindering terrain. Whammo! In two turns he’s done six clicks of damage and now he’s Stealthed with a solid nine (9) attack and he’s still hanging on to that spiffy three (3) damage. Rookie Speedy and E Arsenal aren’t going to pull of that kind of magic. The Vet could, but he runs 23 points more, so fuhgeddaboudit. Packing along Wildcards or other PD guys only adds to the enjoyment of this figure. So do what I do. When the need arises to play Arsenal, who ya gonna call? Ol’ Ray Parker, Jr., here. You better believe it.

#8 – Elektra (Xplosion – Hand Ninja, 19 points, Hydra) – This piece is as hot as the movie of the same name was rotten. For those who may have missed that little “gem” of a “film”, that means that Elektra is fantastic (and by default that the flick is down there in Manos country, but not nearly as fun). She’s truly a thing of beauty, style and grace. A full load of Stealth, an eight (8) attack and three (3) damage are amazing on a figure of this point cost. Add to it the Hydra TA (Hail Hydra!) giving her and fellow Hydra or wildcard agents a +1 to ranged attacks and the result is one incredible piece. Elektra, for all the ups, downs, changes and modifications to the game remains as vital and as deadly as ever and should be in every serious clix player’s tackle box. If you don’t have her, quit reading this, go buy one and then come right back. I mean it. I’ve got a full pot of coffee here and some Hostess fruit pies. I can wait.

Now that we’ve all got our Elektra’s, let’s continue.

#7 – Iron Man [NGN] (Supernova – no REV, 160 points, Avengers) – This is, to date, the best version of Tony!Toni!Tone! that we’ve got, but that’s not the reason he’s on the list. Running Shot, a big 11 attack, a big 17 D and 4 damage with Outwit are the start. His two targets with Incapacitate are also part of the reason. Once Running shot fades and Tony is immobile, Ranged Combat Expert shows up to let him continue to rip away for four (4) damage. Outwit comes back again on clicks six and seven, and then it’s the return of the big four (4) damage on his last click. He’s at worst useful on every single click, and at best a piece that should be able to control his corner of the map. For those who love the cardboard, Tony is a prime example of Feats not making the man, but rather adding that little extra push over the cliff. He’s great as he stands, but he’s more diabolical with Stunning Blow. He’s fine as an Avenger, but in these times of “Civil War”, he may need to Thunderbolt to an alternate TA like Kabuki or Crossgen to accomplish his mission. They’re not necessary to make him great, but they are the extra olive in the martini. And though it may be slightly off topic, it’s funny to note that the two best Iron Men don’t depict Tony in the more traditional armor.

#6 – Madam Hydra (Xplosion – Viper, 39 points, Hydra) – Maybe it’s just me, but I have always thought the names on these figures should be reversed with the REV being Madam Hydra and the LE being Viper. Names aside, Madam Hydra proves she’s no lady. With Mastermind and Ranged Combat Expert she’ll light up an enemy from 10 squares away for four (4) damage all the while passing any hits she takes off on her little Hydra lackeys. When surrounded by her minions, she can gain a nice little attack boost, and even return the favor if the opportunity presents itself. Should she actually have to eat some damage herself, late dial Enhancement allows her to keep contributing to the team until she get’s KO’d. As is the hallmark of any great clix, she can be useful on every click. And again, for those who pile on the cardboard, a quick dose of Trick Shot allows her to shoot over the heads or between the legs of Stealthed Hand Ninja’s positioned directly in front of her, keeping her not only safe from reprisal but also juicing her attack. So how come all of the best Hydra pieces are women? I don’t know, but “Hail Hydra!”

#5 Superman [NGN] (Collateral Damage – no REV, 211 points) – There’s a lot to be said for a Hypersonic flying brick with permanent Stealth. That Batman TA adds a new wrinkle to an old familiar character that makes him more dangerous and different to field at the same time. The changes to HSS make ranged attacks slightly trickier to pull off, but in close combat he can swoop in to do seven (7) clicks of damage with a heavy object and then swoop back out to the safety of hindering terrain. At 211 points, it is possible to provide him with some decent support in a 300 point game, but he’ll shine more brightly at 400 points and above. A mix of Ranged Combat Expert and Psychic Blast make him threatening after his HSS and Running Shot have faded, and his 10 range with two targets will put many a foe squarely in his crosshairs.

#4 – Hulk (Supernova – Zombie, no REV, 100 points) – Love ‘em, hate ‘em or altogether indifferent to ‘em, there’s no denying that the Marvel Zombies are an interesting addition to HeroClix. Chief amongst those Zombies is one of most, if not the most dangerous Hulk ever to grace the game. Opening with a nine (9) attack, Super Strength and Exploit Weakness, he doesn’t need much time to “Hulk-up”, as what he starts with is very good. In traditional Hulk fashion, the clicks just keep getting better as he gets further into his dial with his attack climbing to an 11 and his damage to four (4). Exploit Weakness intermittently appears on his dial, as do other entertaining powers like Flurry for when he’s got a whole lotta beatin’ to hand out, and Steal Energy so that he can either get back to his first click or his best click. But wait! There’s more! He’s utterly devoid of Battle Fury – nearly a Hulk staple – enabling him to be carried into battle. This Hulk is as good as the quote in his HorrorClix card – he is the hungriest on there is, and he’ll feast on many an opponent before he receives his merciful release. And in a pseudo-flashback to Tony, why is it that the best Hulks aren’t of the 616 variety? I’m not sure, but I’m very glad we’ve got this one.

#3 – Ghost Widow (City of Villains Game – No REV, 52 points) – Ghost Widow is an enchanting piece. She Phases, Poisons, Steals Energy, Regenerates, Supports, brings home the bacon, fries it up in a pan, and never ever lets you forget you’re a man. Oh, and hitting her will cause the enemy to take damage; but with an 18 defense, good luck hitting her. All of that aside, Ghost Widow is even more important in that she signals an end to the era of “pure” medic, and ushers in a bold new age of the combat medic. Without fear, she can get in the mix as her high defense and Arachnos TA should afford her a modicum of safety. Once in a fight, with her nine (9) attack and two (2) damage Ghost Widow can handle herself rather well against other figures in her weight class. If she should happen to take a hit Steal Energy, and later Regen are there to get her all the way back to the top of her dial so that the pain can begin again. So much for standing at the back waiting to hand out Band-Aids. Due to the change made to the power, Ghost Widow is the preeminent Support piece in the game because she is so much more than a one trick pony. She heals, can handle herself in a fight and has an excellent TA for Wildcards to copy. So long Jane Foster. It’s been a pip.

#2 – Sue Storm (Fantastic Forces – Invisible Woman, 49 points) – Who would have thought that a Fantastic Forces LE/SR with only two powers would have such a profound impact on the game. More than Nightcrawler. More than KC Superman. More than many other figures that skate around the board bringing down death from above. Sue Storm is a decent figure in her own right. As barrier pieces go, she great. She’s Stealthed, she’s got a respectable nine (9) attack and two (2) damage, and her six (6) range gives her a decent enough reach to either protect her team, or trap a particularly vulnerable or annoying foe. If an Invisible Woman is required, she a great one to play for those reasons alone. However, thanks to one little piece of cardboard, a piece of cardboard that doesn’t even have a point cost to employ, with the Fantastic Four feat card Sue Storm can lend out her majestic 19 defense to every other Fantastic Four team member and Wildcard on her squad. That’s game changing. Not only for the fact this figure and the card conspire to create a Brobdignagian challenge for every opponent this side of Thanos, but also for the fact that in tandem with the FF card, Sue Storm marked the beginning of another new era; that of bigger benefits for playing theme teams.

And, lastly, a decision that even surprised me, we have The Best LE of All Time (…so far)!

#1 - The Man of Steel (Collateral Damage – no REV, 200 points) – As we head into DC’s Origins and the wonder and promise a set holds that reflects characters at their purest and most essential; before Crisis-this, Secret-that, and then Crisis-this and Civil-that with a whole lot of other Secrets, Clones, Elseworlds, What If?’s, and alternate universes thrown in for good measure, my thoughts turned to Superman. In his Kingdom Come and Veteran Icons incarnations he’s been a figure ripe for abuse. KC Supes taught us the fine art of dumpster diving. Vet Icons Supes caused such consternation over Hypersonic Speed that he propagated a rules change all by his lonesome. Now that’s one spicy bean burger to instigate a power being re-written. And yet, as good as those pieces are or were, neither really captured the spirit of what Superman really is as he exists in comics today. The Man of Steel does that in grand fashion.

Much like the pulp Superman, The Man of Steel’s opening thoughts are two-fold; to protect his friends and pull off a quick but powerful drive-by on the enemy before getting into the trenches. And after that starting click of HSS and Defend, that’s just what he does. He Charges into close combat to slog it out. If he can get an object on the way, so much the better, but once he’s there, Close Combat Expert nudges his damage up to six on his second and third clicks. Things getting a little too close for comfort? With Force Blast The Man of Steel can push an opposing brick away making him/her use his/her next action simply to base Supes again. Or, Force Blast be darned, The Man of Steel can just pound away with an 11 attack for five damage (sans object). A little further into his dial, close combat is still supreme as Flurry appears in conjunction with three (3) damage to make sure that each hit counts. Anyone he hits with his nine (9) or 10 attack is going to hurt.

But the thrills, wonders, and joys don’t stop there. As he moves further toward the terminus of his dial, Defend reappears and his defensive numbers climb – all the way to a jaw-dropping 19. It’s time to rally around The Man of Steel for the last stand. At this point in his dial his attack values are a nine (9) and a pair of eight’s (8’s), but if he’s done his job these should be good enough to connect. Since his damage climbs from three (3) all the way up to five (5) at this point as well, each hit should send an enemy off to KO land. By the same token, if he’s done his job the bad guys are going to have a devil of a time hitting the The Man of Steel’s 17, 18, and 19 defense. The evil-doers aren't going to fare better with whoever he’s Defending either. This, too, harkens back to many a comic. When the chips are down and the fate of Earth, an alien world, or maybe just that cute Lois Lane is at stake, every hero left standing gravitates to Supes as he gives it everything he’s got to win the day.

A powerhouse on every click, with nary a click wasted, The Man of Steel is a force to be reckoned with at every stage of the game. He embodies and exemplifies the true sprit of the Superman character and he posses a unique combination of raw power and support for his team. And that is why The Man of Steel is simply The Man – and The #1 LE of All Time (…so far)!

Thanks for reading! Next week we’ll return to the regular format, and we’ll be looking at a pair of Supernova pieces as we work our way through the back-log created by doing this Top 20 list. The most likely candidates for review will be Dr. Donald Blake and the enigmatically titled One Who Knows. See you in seven!

Peers
01/11/2007, 10:56
Minor edit needed in #5:

"and Psychic Blast keep him threatening"

papermachearmor
01/11/2007, 13:44
Glad to see NGN Supes is up there. I'm won many a game with him.

venarnage
01/11/2007, 13:45
I'm just not too into The Man. I do like the other choices, though! Thanks again for great review! Glad to see Polaris, GW, NGN Supes, IM, and the Hulk I want...

malakim2099
01/11/2007, 13:49
I like this review, but I have one question?

For those who may have missed that little “gem” of a “film”, that means that Elektra is fantastic (and by default that the flick is down there in Manos country, but not nearly as fun).

If Jennifer Gardner is doing full-contact nightgown wrestling, I am SO there. :devious:

Terman8er
01/11/2007, 13:55
Wow...comsider me shocked at some of those. Nice write up Ol Dut!

Repulsor rage
01/11/2007, 13:56
Great reveiw, Man of Steel is the best.

Vegeto25
01/11/2007, 14:02
Why was the Robot Superman the best of 2006 but didn't make this list?

No more love for the Robot?

bonkers1978
01/11/2007, 14:21
Why was the Robot Superman the best of 2006 but didn't make this list?

No more love for the Robot?

Robot Supes is not an LE. I believe they are Experiecned with the blue ring.

Jawapimp
01/11/2007, 14:21
No Jane Foster? Back in the day she was a staple on most teams...

Vegeto25
01/11/2007, 14:22
Robot Supes is not an LE. I believe they are Experiecned with the blue ring.

Right, duh. Thanks for clearing that up, lol.

mr-coffin
01/11/2007, 14:22
Man of Steel is that great. I love your choices in general.

St-Dumas
01/11/2007, 14:27
Ghost Widow takes #3, so i'm happy.

absolutvt69
01/11/2007, 14:41
Not a bad list... skewed towards some of the newer figures but it's hard to argue that those listed don't belong on the list in SOME order. Madame Hydra was one of my favorite pieces from way back. Cheap and deadly... I might have to dust her off and give her a spin again.

DeltaPi1049
01/11/2007, 14:42
Ol Dut, awesome job as usual.

I gotta say though, Im very happy about seeing my main man Roy Harper on there. That PD ability as well as the 39 point Run Shot three damage, 8 range! So great.

I would think that NGN Iron Man and NGN Superman should have been a little higher, if not only because they provide new players with such a great starting point and older players with more great figs. Each is very useful, especially the first Supes with Bat Team.

tidge
01/11/2007, 14:42
I'll post more later, but here are my first impressions:

1) I am pleased with your rational for your choices, even though I'm not in full agreement.

2) I'm surprised at the inclusion of soo many lower cost figs, each is good...but I'm not sure that the distinction between Roy Harper Jr. and LE Elektra is great enough to include them both on the list.

3) No LE should be on the list because of a feat card, and I think Sue Storm only qualifies because of the alt-F4 feat. If not for the 19 DV, she would be far outclassed by the Critical Mass puck. Similarly, Madame Hydra is primarily known for the great fit with Trick Shot.

4) I was surprised to not see Jane Foster...in practice, she's the best single figure medic in the game...and she is even better than 2 lower cost medics, IMO.

5) I was sad but not surprised, to see that Sam Wilson didn't make the list. He's probably not top 10 material, but he brings SOOO much to the SHIELD team.

DerangedHermit
01/11/2007, 14:47
Wow, no LE Jean Marie?

kontrol
01/11/2007, 14:50
No Whitney Frost? With or without cards, before and after all the changes to the game, Whitney is worth all 51 of her points and more.

MOS is a heck of an LE though.

absolutvt69
01/11/2007, 14:50
Wow, no LE Jean Marie?


Not nearly as useful after the HSS rule change. That really hurt figures w/ short ranges to begin with.

Hero_guy
01/11/2007, 14:51
BEST!

LIST!

EVER!

Superman holds 2 of the top 5 slots. That's enough said for me. I'm going to write you in as my vote for president in '08 ol_Dut. :p

AZS
01/11/2007, 15:01
Robot Supes is not an LE. I believe they are Experiecned with the blue ring.He is still a 'Limited Edition' in the technical sense of the term, since he was only available through a special promotion.

Some figs on this list might technically be 'Unique' and not LE (I think that applies to the Man of Steel. So the 'He's Experienced' doesn't necessarily exclude him from this list.

That being, I too am surprised he's not on the list. And I'm surprised at MoS being #1. I'm not sure who I would have listed as #2, but it probably wouldn't have been MoS.

Besides that, Great list 'Dut, and thanks for the effort!

AirDeRo
01/11/2007, 15:06
Nice list :D


I need gwidow and man of steel still too >_< !

Tylk
01/11/2007, 15:08
If not for the 19 DV, she would be far outclassed by the Critical Mass puck..

If Magog had HSS he'd so outclass all the Supermans.....

Even without the card, Sue is just silly for 49 points. Can you say Construct?
With the card she is just ########.

Manchine
01/11/2007, 15:08
Wow 2 Indy LE's in the top 20. I am impressed. Not to much I would disagree with here. There are some small changes but nothing big. :)

hobgoblin22
01/11/2007, 15:16
Overall I think the list was pretty accurate. My number 1 is the NGN iron man. I would rank the man of steel behind the ngn supes as well, even though the theme is cool. I also think zombie spiderman and colonel america could have made the top 20. Spiderman is great for 40 points and the Colonel can finally run and throw his shield. Captain Mako is also a great LE for his points who is often forgotten. Overall, great list though

ol_Dut
01/11/2007, 15:27
I'll post more later, but here are my first impressions:

4) I was surprised to not see Jane Foster...in practice, she's the best single figure medic in the game...and she is even better than 2 lower cost medics, IMO.


In general, I think the game is moving away from from those single function support figures like paramedics and con artists, whether they be the REV or Jane and Sarah. A quick scan of new pieces shows us Support showing up on the likes of Doc Midnight, Azreal and Silver Surfer for example. Perplex shows up figures like Elongated Man, Sage and Ant Man. All are figures who do more than one little "support" trick and are combat capable to varying degrees. With Support being roll a d6 and subtract 2 to a minimum of 1, I firmly believe that to be worth their points, a medic has to do something in addition to being a medic. Jane's got nothing. Ghost Widow, on the other hand, does a whole wicked bunch, and that's why the Widow is in and Jane is out.

Even though she may need a card to be used to her full effect, Sue Storm did change the game rather dramatically, and that's why I put her high up on the list. And I agree that while Trick Shot makes Madam Hydra insanely powerful, she was a gigantic menace and a top 10 LE long before the inception of feat cards. She was great without it, but she undoubtedly even better with TS. That's a sign of a great piece - one that continues to get even better as the game changes.

ludd_gang
01/11/2007, 15:32
Even though she may need a card to be used to her full effect, Sue Storm did change the game rather dramatically, and that's why I put her high up on the list.

No one even plays old school F4 TA anymore. The fact that she needs a card is irrelevent since the card is a given. I agree; She is definitely a top ten listee.

In fact, I still am hugely opposed to the ruling that Sue Storm is a flier.

UltimateCollector16
01/11/2007, 15:41
Glad to see Sue getting her props love that ff feat card!!!!

Badgerbite
01/11/2007, 15:52
I really have to disagree with some thing here.

I’ve got a full pot of coffee here and some Hostess fruit pies. I can wait.

Tasty Cake fruit pies are way better and should have made the list.

rwint1968
01/11/2007, 16:01
I don't play LE's much, but two of the ones I do use were in Ol' Dut's top ten. Roy Harper Jr. is an excellent piece for all the reasons mentioned by Ol' Dut. I like using him alot. The Sue Storm LE/SR is probably the LE I use the most just because of her stealth, barrier and possibility of using FF feat card all for only 49 points.

Overall, very nice review Ol' Dut. Thanks alot, and GIVE HIM SOME REP!

:cool:

Agentofthebat
01/11/2007, 16:12
WHere did this image come from????


http://www.hcrealms.com/gallery/data/500/MARVTU017_colorcvrb.jpg

So it’s come to this. We’re down to the top 10 spots on the list of The 20 Best LE’s of All Time (…so far) - Part Two! Some figures like Philip Masters, Maxwell Dillon, Sister Magdalena, and Dr. Jonathan Crane didn’t show up in the previous article which went over positions #20 through #11. Will they show up on today’s list? Heck no! But to find out just who did make the cut, click on “Read More”!

Carpeted_Man
01/11/2007, 16:16
WHere did this image come from????

Marvel Team Up, the League of Losers arc. Issue #17 I think, not sure.


Some figs on this list might technically be 'Unique' and not LE (I think that applies to the Man of Steel. So the 'He's Experienced' doesn't necessarily exclude him from this list.

Yeah I was going to say I was pretty sure the Man of Steel is a unique and not an LE. I mean he has a silver ring but still I agree with the list.

Mr. Pilkington
01/11/2007, 16:31
Tasty Cake fruit pies are way better and should have made the list.

I have to agree, although here in the south it almost impossible to find Tasty Cake anything, and usually then it is just krimpets. *sigh*

As for the LE list, it fell out about how I expected. NGN Iron Man, Madame Hydra, Ghost Widow, Ninja Pajamas Elektra, Zombie Hulk, Roy and Sue I expected. NGN Supes was a bit of a surprise. I've not seen him used (but then I was absent from tournaments around his introduction, and chances are folks got tired of playing him by the time I was showing up again). Polaris I didn't expect only because I totally forgot she existed. Similarly on MoS. There are just too many LEs to rate without pulling out the figures or at least checking a units/figure gallery.

thepunisher27
01/11/2007, 16:39
great list man of steel is a great piece

tidge
01/11/2007, 16:45
If Magog had HSS he'd so outclass all the Supermans.....

Even without the card, Sue is just silly for 49 points.

Apples and Oranges. When a Magog LE qualifies for a 0-point feat that grants him HSS, we can revist that insane comparison.

Sorry, but there are better barrier pieces, and better (more offensive) Sue Storms. For the 19 DV, you might as well upgrade to the Vet CT Sue Storm. If you want a similar DV that is easier to protect, pick one with 18 DV and shared defense. If you want one that is a heavier hitter, use the puck.

She's a one-trick pony...and that one trick gets whammied by two of the most popular nerf-tastic BFCs: Disbanded and Isolation.

absolutvt69
01/11/2007, 16:51
Apples and Oranges. When a Magog LE qualifies for a 0-point feat that grants him HSS, we can revist that insane comparison.

Sorry, but there are better barrier pieces, and better (more offensive) Sue Storms. For the 19 DV, you might as well upgrade to the Vet CT Sue Storm. If you want a similar DV that is easier to protect, pick one with 18 DV and shared defense. If you want one that is a heavier hitter, use the puck.

She's a one-trick pony...and that one trick gets whammied by two of the most popular nerf-tastic BFCs: Disbanded and Isolation.

So we shouldn't count her on the list b/c of a feat but it's ok to discount her b/c of a BFC? How's that work exactly?

Ghost_Rider
01/11/2007, 17:00
Man of Steel is awesome, so I'm glad to see he's number one!

Also, Elektra wasn't THAT bad. It was actually watchable for the first 10 minutes or so. What really ruined it though was all the supernatural stuff.

Great review!

tidge
01/11/2007, 17:49
So we shouldn't count her on the list b/c of a feat but it's ok to discount her b/c of a BFC? How's that work exactly?

2 nerfy-BFCs trump 1 feat X)

(not to mention Pulse Wave)

Really, my beef against the Sue Storm (as a top-10 LE) is that she's not that spectacular when compared to the other version of the character that exist, or that do nearly identical things.

VelvetGuru9
01/11/2007, 19:08
I like the list from top to bottom. My personal favorite wound up at #3 on your list. I know that when I break her out in a tourny that the other guy will look over and say "I hate her."

"I hate her;" the mark of a great LE! Thanks for another great article.

Top10
01/11/2007, 20:14
This was my guess from last week

10. Silver Surfer
9. Madame Hydra
8. Antman
7. Roy Harper
6. Elektra Ninja
5. NGN Ironman
4. Sue Storm
3. Jane Foster
2. ghost Widow
1. NGN Superman


I got 7 out of 10 figures. Jane Foster, Antman, and Silver Surfer were not on your list.

I never thought about Hulk and Polaris. I would have had Hulk on my list at 10 instead of Surfer.

I'm really surprised at no Jane Foster

Man of Steel at #1 !!!!!!!!!!
You've made me so happy because he is my my personal favorite Top 10 but I never thought he would be on yours. You hit a homerun with Man of Steel. He is so comic accurate and playable.


GREAT JOB :classic: :classic:

biz567
01/11/2007, 22:08
#2 – Sue Storm (Fantastic Forces – Invisible Woman, 49 points) – Who would have thought that a Fantastic Forces LE/SR with only two powers would have such a profound impact on the game.

She has 4 powers.;) :laugh:

But awesome review! I agree with pretty much everything, I'm happy to see that Ghost Widow and Roy made it, a few of my favorite LE's!

George Smiley
01/11/2007, 22:34
Two excellent LEs that are not on your list are the Kyle Rayner LE and the Tony Stark LE. I've used them both and I'm confident that both have very good dials. I also like both sculpts. They both fit nicely on theme teams or in the 300 or 400 pt. formats and they are both very effective.

zero_cochrane
01/11/2007, 23:52
Hey, I have sixteen LEs out of twenty-three of the Top 20 list. Not bad!

I have to agree that looking at LE Sue Storm without the FF ATA is just silly. She was designed with that feat in mind; arguably, the feat was created specifically for Invisible Woman/Sue Storm.

Yes, you could use the old veteran Invisible Woman from CT (and in a very large game I have done so) but a 30-point difference is not inconsiderable.

Mon_ami
01/12/2007, 02:48
I have to give it to you Dut, Great Review. I was diggin everything about the list and the breakdown. It's always fun reading. Oh and I have to give you some serious rep for pulling off the Tony!Tone!Toni! bit - that was awesome. LOL

GMSLegion
01/12/2007, 06:14
If Jennifer Gardner is doing full-contact nightgown wrestling, I am SO there. :devious:

Oh, Lordy, I just saw Manos for the first time this past weekend... *dies

zero_cochrane
01/12/2007, 06:34
Elektra was more enjoyable than Daredevil was.

Terrance Stamp was great, for a start!

Gator
01/12/2007, 07:00
Nice review. One quick point of clarification. Ghost Widow is 54 points.

I just got her in a trade and was thrilled to see how useful she is

Ville
01/12/2007, 08:01
I wholeheartedly salute the creator of this list. I totally agree with the choices in top 3. Great job!:)

Man of Steel is not only a terrific piece in play, but also a figure with "character" and soul. I have never read a single Superman comic, but this figure really gives a hindsight into his character.

I have used him in a game several times, and what memorable matches have those been! Durability, tactical flexibility and modest point cost combined in a single piece. I´m looking forward for my first defeat with him, there have been close calls but he has always triumphed in the end.

samuraigrifter
01/12/2007, 08:25
I agree with your choice for #1. I was able to defeat Vet Icons Superman with the Man of Steel, and his middle to late dial clicks leave me more confident than those of Icons Supes. Haven't used my NGN Iron Man yet because I just got it. I'm also glad NGN Supes got some lovin' because it's one of my favorite pieces as well.

Manchine
01/12/2007, 09:37
Elektra was more enjoyable than Daredevil was.

Terrance Stamp was great, for a start!

My wife thought Daredevil was FAR better. She puts it as her 4th favorite superhero movie. I enjoyed Daredevil more then Xmen 3.

Boozehound
01/12/2007, 10:15
X-men 3 was horrible. Anyways, I agree with MoS being #1, the style of play for the character really makes me feel like I'm playing Superman for what he does. Not to mention he's cost efficient in the sense that 200 points for what you can do for him is terrific.

Sue Storm I think qaulifies on the list for the sake that you're paying under 40 points for what she can provide to the team. In comparison to her other versions, yes you can find more out of her role, but they do not provide the same versatility. She has a 9 attack and 2 damage for the beginning of her dial while the puck offers 18 Defense all around (in essence you can simply get that from the Rookie, so why pay extra for something that you're using for that role).

But unlike the puck, Sue Storm also flies and can carry other pieces. Having Barrier early in the game makes her role much easy, how often would you say you can pull off Energy Explosion from the puck especially if you're based? when sue gains 1 damage, she still fulfills some purpose with Incapacitate as well.

Count_Nefaria
01/12/2007, 10:24
Any Superman who's first click is defend is a really good piece, but doesn't make sense. Superman is impenetrable by bullets, but in this incarnation, a really accurate sniper can waste him away for four clicks and take him down half his dial. If that first click were impervious, he'd be the most accurate Superman, but since it's Defend, he's the best Superman game wise... defend+hypersonic+18 defense=really good. But that's not Superman. I'd rather use NGN. And even if Man of Steel is the best Superman, is he really the best LE EVER?

Errrrmm, I can't help feeling that some LE's were overlooked for this list. Oh well...

hair10
01/12/2007, 10:32
Good review (both of 'em). I have to say I completely disagree with Sue as number 2. Since the advent of Disbanded, Isolation, and the like... she (and the whole Alternate FF TA) are nothing but an afterthought anymore.

I was completely expecting the Superman-Robot to make an appearance on the list. Power/abilities per point, he's one of the best made so far.

clixer11
01/12/2007, 10:48
Great list!

Wow...quite the controversy on LE Sue Storm. Without the feat card, she's a six-click figure for 49 points that can Barrier, hide, and be a real nuisance until Poisoned to death. I don't think its reasonable to discount a figure that takes advantage of cardboard...cardboard is part of the game. I guess your mileage will vary depending on how savvy folks at your venue are about nerfing her. When I play to abuse her, one of my opponents is eating an Ordinary Day. That may or may not be the only opponent I have to worry about for a variety of reasons.

I too am shocked LE Jeanne-Marie is not on the list. While it is true her HSS was nerfed due to a 6 to 3 range adjustment, one could say that is even worse for LE MoS (8 to 4). In actuality, LE J-M suffered less than most of her HSS counterparts because her range value is low, but she has an incredible 12 move. And Avengers, which combined with Tbolts makes her even more versatile.

tidge
01/12/2007, 12:21
Great list!

Wow...quite the controversy on LE Sue Storm. Without the feat card, she's a six-click figure for 49 points that can Barrier, hide, and be a real nuisance until Poisoned to death.

Even packing a 19 DV, many top-calibre teams regularly pack 11 AV (or higher) pieces with trivial ways to either bust stealth/ignore terrain (Thunderbolts, Trick Shot) or increase AVs by +2 (Thunderbolts, ICwO, Perplex).

I typically just see that LE dropped on the map to contribute the DV (via the alt-TA); I rarely see her advancing much beyond the starting area. Even mild-turtling is just not an event-winning strategy against most move+attack teams, and it's going to flat-out be dismantled by (commonly used BFCs).

A Sue Storm team can be devastating against a team that doesn't pack high AVs, or cannot get them to make attacks...but that doesn't describe any of the "top eight" teams we've seen (except possibly for the LAMP variants).

jtigan
01/12/2007, 12:22
The Man of Steel is a Unique, not an LE. I don't know if anyone else said it, didn't go thru all 4 pages, but I just checked and mine has a silver ring, not gold.

The best LE of all time should not be a Unique. I vote for Oliver Queen or Hal Jordan.

hair10
01/12/2007, 12:42
The best LE of all time should not be a Unique.
Even with the silver ring, it's still considered an LE (see also: Plastic Man "Mailbox" and the Atom).

Mr. Pilkington
01/12/2007, 12:45
A Sue Storm team can be devastating against a team that doesn't pack high AVs, or cannot get them to make attacks...but that doesn't describe any of the "top eight" teams we've seen (except possibly for the LAMP variants).

I'm not sure how things are in your area, but at the venue I attend we rarely see these "top eight" teams. People use different teams a lot, especially with build restrictions/scenarios and their collections (not everyone is a completist like me). So people don't always pack a Disbanded or the like. Thus the occasional Sue ATA team can do well (my 500 point FF/Inhumans team did pretty well recently).

tidge
01/12/2007, 13:22
... So people don't always pack a Disbanded or the like. Thus the occasional Sue ATA team can do well (my 500 point FF/Inhumans team did pretty well recently).

As I said, if a team doesn't pack an 11+ AVs, Sue Storm and her ilk can be deadly. But most competative teams in these parts (which are not clones of "top eight") have at least one 11 AV figure, and usually some 'less-than-thematic' way to increase AVs if necessary (Thunderbolts, ICwO, Perplex).

Obviously if you are playing a thematic team of figures without decent AVs, you will be flustered by high defenses....doubly so if the Sue Storm ATA team isn't playing by similar 'theme' rules, and BFCs are off the table.

(In a 500 point game with just FF and Inhumans, I don't really see the advantage of the FF Sue Storm over the CT Vet, or a sharing defense verison like Rookie CT or CM puck.)

Remember, I'm not denying this is a good LE, just that I don't see it as 'top-10' material, when any High-AV piece with Trick Shot can tear through her, and two very common BFCs nullify her entire strategy.

If she had the Avengers or Defenders TA, she'd still be a great piece, but would anyone think of her as top 10 material? I don't think so, because nobody is decrying the 'missing' Ant Man and his 20 DV.

Aminar
01/12/2007, 13:39
Any Superman who's first click is defend is a really good piece, but doesn't make sense. Superman is impenetrable by bullets, but in this incarnation, a really accurate sniper can waste him away for four clicks and take him down half his dial. If that first click were impervious, he'd be the most accurate Superman, but since it's Defend, he's the best Superman game wise... defend+hypersonic+18 defense=really good. But that's not Superman. I'd rather use NGN. And even if Man of Steel is the best Superman, is he really the best LE EVER?

Errrrmm, I can't help feeling that some LE's were overlooked for this list. Oh well...
I'm sorry, but It's the up front defend that nerfs him, If he had up front Impervious he would probably be broken, as is he's a challenge to play, hence his non-tournament dominance, but he's also very very deadly. In fact He's really the only superman I feel plays like Superman because of the defend. He's goin around stopping bullets from hitting his entire team, and he stays nasty all dial. KC superman is the only other superman I feel is accurate at all, the rest are not mobile enough, too front loaded, or are from Hypertime.

venarnage
01/12/2007, 13:48
I'm sorry, but It's the up front defend that nerfs him, If he had up front Impervious he would probably be broken, as is he's a challenge to play, hence his non-tournament dominance, but he's also very very deadly. In fact He's really the only superman I feel plays like Superman because of the defend. He's goin around stopping bullets from hitting his entire team, and he stays nasty all dial. KC superman is the only other superman I feel is accurate at all, the rest are not mobile enough, too front loaded, or are from Hypertime.

Hey! Hypertime Supes is a real leader! He may not be able to stop bullets from the rest of his team, but he keeps leading them, even after their dead! :laugh: :p :cheeky:

ol_Dut
01/12/2007, 14:07
If she had the Avengers or Defenders TA, she'd still be a great piece, but would anyone think of her as top 10 material? I don't think so, because nobody is decrying the 'missing' Ant Man and his 20 DV.



Well, they would be if Antman could give every other Avenger his 20 D, but he can't, and he's outclassed by The Atom and the new Ant-Man REV. As it is, that's what Sue can do. Her ability to leverage the FF ATA makes her super cool. Sure folks with Trick Shot can target her if you let them, but by contolling where you place her, you in essence pick who your opponent can target. If you plunk her down someplace that isn't wise, she deserves to be lit up. Behind a wall or a barrier, she's safe from Trick Shot. As it is, the bad guys will likely have their hands full dealing with the 19 D's on the Thing, She Hulk, the 21 on Torch, etc., to have much time to worry about Sue in the early game. Becasue those folks will be all up in the bad guy's grills handing out damage by the boatloads. And if the bad guys are silly enough to send their sharpest shooter all the way across the map after Sue, well then the job just got a lot easier for Thing, She Hulk, et al, as they mop the floor with everybody else. Sue may go down, but not until the bulk of the bad guys have taken a pounding.

Can Disbanded hurt Sue? Sure. But it nerfs every TA, including Mystics, Power Cosmic, Batman, etc. The impact is universal so I don't see that as a "weakness" that is uniquely hers. And if it hits, oh well. She's a 50 point investment. But that Thanos on the other hand - he's looking all dressed up like a Christmas goose and just ready to be eaten. Ditto Ganthet. And Ares. The list is a long one.

Of all the thnigs I didn't expect to cause controversy:laugh: ! Sweet Sue, who knew?

absolutvt69
01/12/2007, 14:48
The Man of Steel is a Unique, not an LE. I don't know if anyone else said it, didn't go thru all 4 pages, but I just checked and mine has a silver ring, not gold.

The best LE of all time should not be a Unique. I vote for Oliver Queen or Hal Jordan.


Man of Steel is an LE. If you check the opening of the article it states that all LEs are eligible regardless of "ring color".

On another note, I don't really see the controversy over Sue Storm. She's been a highly sought after, much used piece since she came out. Now I don't consider her all that hard to beat but she's definitely a great piece for the points (especially since the Alt-TA doesn't add to her cost at all).

X-Inferno
01/12/2007, 16:10
Great list!

Wow...quite the controversy on LE Sue Storm. Without the feat card, she's a six-click figure for 49 points that can Barrier, hide, and be a real nuisance until Poisoned to death. I don't think its reasonable to discount a figure that takes advantage of cardboard...cardboard is part of the game. I guess your mileage will vary depending on how savvy folks at your venue are about nerfing her. When I play to abuse her, one of my opponents is eating an Ordinary Day. That may or may not be the only opponent I have to worry about for a variety of reasons.

I too am shocked LE Jeanne-Marie is not on the list. While it is true her HSS was nerfed due to a 6 to 3 range adjustment, one could say that is even worse for LE MoS (8 to 4). In actuality, LE J-M suffered less than most of her HSS counterparts because her range value is low, but she has an incredible 12 move. And Avengers, which combined with Tbolts makes her even more versatile.

I couldn't agree with you more... LE Jeanne Marie should have atleast been in the top 20! She was one of the least nerfed by the new HSS rules. she only lost a total of 3 range on her attack. Unlike NGN Superman, who lost a totall of 5 range when making a HSS attack. Jean Marie is one of the most versatile LE's in the game! you can fit her on to almost any team... and she allways pulls her wieght! She's the perfect 2nd string attacker for any team that also needs some Thunder Bolts action.

Kite-Man
01/12/2007, 17:01
OOooo!
I hate that Ghost Widow figure.

I'll waste a 100 point figure's life just to see her cold(er) and dead(er).

So I guess she deserves her spot on the list.

malakim2099
01/12/2007, 17:07
Elektra was more enjoyable than Daredevil was.

Terrance Stamp was great, for a start!

*insert mandatory Zod reference here*

(It's the end of the work week, talk to me in 30 minutes! Even if it is from home!) :laugh:

GroovyBoy
01/12/2007, 17:53
Okay, we finally have a complete (and well thought-out) Top 20 list by Ol Dut, so like I promised, I will reveal my Top 25 and Honorable Mentions. Before we get started, let's recap his list:

Hon Ment:
Carter Hall
Arthur Curry^
PMS Hulk
Wade Cole
Witchblade
Captain Marvel (zee girl)*

#20 – Little Sure Shot^
#19 – Doctor Doom*
#18 – Norman Osborne*
#17 – Jessica Drew
#16 – Morlock Leader^ tied with The Atom
#15 – Clint Barton
#14 – Cain Marko*
#13 – Kraven the Spider
#12 – Justice is Served!^ tied with Elektra Natchios
#11 – Etrigan* tied with Daniel Ketch*
#10 - Polaris
#9 - Roy Harper, Jr.*
#8 - Ninja Elektra*
#7 - NGN Iron Man
#6 - Madame Hydra*
#5 - NGN Supes
#4 - Zombie Hulk*
#3 - Ghost Widow*
#2 - Sue Storm*
#1 - MOS Supes*

As I said last week, my Top 25 did not have an order, which is kind of a cop-out, but man is it tough to rank them (props to Dut). Figures above marked with a ^ made my Honorable Mention, and those marked with a * made my Top 25, and since Dut already covered them, I don't think we need to go into them. I will discuss some of the others, however.

Honorable Mention:

Cameron Chase - Okay, you have to push her/Pulse Wave her/do some Feat trick (which is why she's only HM), but once she hits that Imperv-Outwit click, she's a great Mastermind fodder/utility piece. Mr. Bones LOVES her.
Arthur Curry
T.O. Morrow - 10 range, Super Senses, RCE, and Support later, all for 37 points. He was a bargain back in the day, and he still has some uses now.
Ollie Queen - Cheap Trick Shot piece w/Stealth
Lil Sure Shot
Lobster Johnson - Imperv and Outwit, plus a Wilcard. What's the downside?
Search/Destroy Agent Alpha - Everything you want from Johnny and nothing you don't, and a nice price.
Dinner Is Served!
Moorlock Leader
Hector Hall - Swiss Army Mystic
Fred Myers - Triple EE at an affordable (I'm looking at you, Ultron) price.

Top 25 (in no particular order)
Atom - 20 DV, Stealth, and free move to get his Perplex all over the board
Yellowjacket - I like him more than Ant-Man because he has L/C and 1 damage. Okay, you can't abuse him by T-Bolting to Defenders and then running your team like a German Panzer down the middle of the board, but... BORING!!!
Yrra Cynril - Everything you like about Fatality, but a little bit more of it.
Ring of Blades Boon - A fig that just screams BCF pain, with Super Senses and Cross Gen, meaning opposing figs are taking damage if they do anything but Poison or run.
KC Shazam - If I owed some dude money and I heard he sent KC Shazam to collect, I'd probably poop my pants and look for a tall building to jump off of. End of story.
Hal Jordan - When you absolutely, positively can't get enough Unleashed Green Lantern.
Ghost Widow
Etrigan
Roy Harper, Jr.
Dr. Doom
Jane Foster - Hello, nurse!!! Sure, the value of Support has gone down since Danger Room, but I still think she's everyone's favorite medic.
Madame Hydra
Ninja Elektra
Rupert - I'm a big fan of front-loaded Triple Incap. Mastermind means he's probably gonna stick around for awhile, and his Stealth is gonna keep most people from Outwitting him.
Prof X (Brood Queen) - If you stay back, he/she will MC you from 10 squares. if you get in his/her face, he/she will BCF you up. Just surrender and wait for the mind swap.
FF Sue Storm
Cain Marko
Norman Osborne
Jean-Marie Beaubier - Okay, this pick might be a little weak, since she really only has one great click. Oh well, I made the list last week and it's too late.
Venom - Where's the love for this guy? He's a freakin' powerhouse that has uses from beginning to end.
MOS Supes
Captain Marvel (zee girl)
Zombie Hulk
Norin Radd - V Surfer Lite. All the great taste and half the calories.
Danny Ketch

My comments on the Dut's Top 10 that I didn't choose:
Polaris - She was awesome once, but then the Emerald Express pulled into town.
NGN Iron Man - His first few clicks are great, but his back end really disappoints me (unlike, say, Eric's sister)
NGN Supes - When it comes to characters with more than 1 LE, I tend to pick the best one and ignore the rest. MOS Supes is much better than this one, who is kida gimmick-y to me anyway.

Hopefully I have given people more to discuss, and deflected any obnoxious crticism away from Dut unto me...

tidge
01/12/2007, 19:06
Massive snipping...


My comments on the Dut's Top 10 that I didn't choose:

Polaris - She was awesome once, but then the Emerald Express pulled into town.

I agree. Another victim of the Emerald Express was LE Annihilus, who test drove most of those Wild Card Pulse Wave rulings long before the Emerald one.

When I was working on my own top 25, other "formerly great" LEs have likewise been surpassed by very nice non-LE figures:

Clay Quartermaine, the original SHIELD bully has been replaced by the new SHIELD snipers.

Victor Creed while in many ways is still my Sabretooth of choice is not much of a standout compared to the Ultimate Veteran.

The various LE Batmen: Matches Malone and the Dark Knight Detective, while not very common still get passed over for the Starter Batman from Icons.

Reviewing Groovy's and 'dut's lists, the pieces I think deserve consideration that missed the cuts include:

Kyle Rayner: He just does everything you would expect a 10-range Green Lantern to be able to do (from far away!) and that Perplex is amazing.

Garth Ranzz: When building a Wild Card abuse team, he should be at the top of the list for Taxi duty, as well as offensive potential, for a bargain price.

Xorn-eto: If you are building a Brotherhood team without feats, this guy is your choice. He's got the offensive potential you want at the price you can afford.

Sam "don't call me Snap, or Flip" Wilson: I've loved charging fliers since the days of Adrian Toomes. How can we get such an excellent figure for the SHIELD team, yet all versions of Angel stink? No single piece with a team ability has by itself improved its team so much as Sam Wilson has done for SHIELD. He can Charge into objects, carrying a buddy, he can contribute to ranged attacks damage he's got Willpower and Leadership...and he is coming to base you.

My honorable mentions:

Arwyn (and Patches): Invest the extra points for Trick Shot or Armor Piercing (or both!) and just let her have fun plinking away from behind enemy lines. Some may validly question the investment beyond the Unique Arwyn, but I think the extra target + Mystics is worth the small loss in range and stat reduction.

Todd Rice: This is an upgrade in the flavor of Danny Ketch and L'Etrigan. His raw numbers may not be as spectacular, but his 65-point cost will be well spent if he ducks any attacks (from Super Senses) or hits from range with his Psychic Blast. A great addition to the JLA.

Princess Koriand'r: Good taste prevents me from using any of the many double-entendre's to describe how this piece fits in with the Experienced and Veteran versions from Icons, but what may look like a small loss in early stats pays for a very impressive array of powers (and numbers) later in the dial. She's not simply your 'snipe from 10 range' piece, this Starfire is an uber-agressive monster designed for hot-and-heavy team play.

antedoX
01/12/2007, 19:33
Awesome list. It prolly took a lot of effort and time to narrow them all down. I was suprised not to see Rupert on this list. He's still a phenomenal piece for his points.

Another oft-overlooked fig that I would have put on the list is George Tartleton. He's a super-streamlined fig at a mere 16 points and he brings so much to the table. 6 range, 8 a/v, and 2 damage might seem 'meh' but add Barrier and the Hydra TA and you've got a stellar team player that is quite often ignored.

XStreme
01/12/2007, 23:51
I couldn't agree with you more... LE Jeanne Marie should have atleast been in the top 20! She was one of the least nerfed by the new HSS rules. she only lost a total of 3 range on her attack.

Actually...she was nerfed more by the change than most figures where, not the other way around...a 6 range HSS is actually a decent range...a 5 range HSS is decent too...a 3 range, not so decent....I think with her range being so low she got nerfed much more than high range HSSers.


Nice list! I agree with the majority of it...I'd never put Man of Steel in spot 1 though....I might not even put him in the top 10...he's a good figure, don't get me wrong, but there are much better LEs than him.

EmeraldKnight4
01/13/2007, 01:09
I actually can't stand sue storm. It's not that I fear her. Far from it. I have no problem with destroying any ff team they try sneaking her in. It's the fact that she needs a card to make her good. I personally like to use a character that can stand up and deliver on their own without having to rely on a card to make them good. That's just me, though.

Sgt Grimes
01/13/2007, 01:14
Great review!

XStreme
01/13/2007, 01:54
I actually can't stand sue storm. It's not that I fear her. Far from it. I have no problem with destroying any ff team they try sneaking her in. It's the fact that she needs a card to make her good. I personally like to use a character that can stand up and deliver on their own without having to rely on a card to make them good. That's just me, though.

You know alot of people feel this way...but personally I just don't understand it one bit. Whether or not a character needs a card to be truely competitive is a non-issue for me...as long as the card isn't hard to find...feats are part of the game

wintremute
01/13/2007, 02:34
I like this review, but I have one question?

>> That's a statement, not a question, so it shouldn't end with a question mark.

If Jennifer Gardner is doing full-contact nightgown wrestling, I am SO there. :devious:

>> If you have one question, what is it? That's another statement. And who is Jennifer Gardner? The lame Elektra I know was played by Jennifer Garner (daughter of James Garner).

EmeraldKnight4
01/13/2007, 03:01
You know alot of people feel this way...but personally I just don't understand it one bit. Whether or not a character needs a card to be truely competitive is a non-issue for me...as long as the card isn't hard to find...feats are part of the game

I understand what you mean. I just think that a character should not have to rely on a card so heavily. Cards were put into place to give the game an edge, but I'm sorry, she is just the beginning of a new type of one-trick ponies. But to each his own, I guess.

XStreme
01/13/2007, 03:42
I understand what you mean. I just think that a character should not have to rely on a card so heavily. Cards were put into place to give the game an edge, but I'm sorry, she is just the beginning of a new type of one-trick ponies. But to each his own, I guess.

Oh no reason to say sorry. :) It's your preference and that's fine. I was just stating that personally I didn't understand why people felt that way. But just because I don't know why doesn't mean anything other than peaking my curiosity. :)

But as ol'dut stated in his article...She is actually a very well spent 49 points without the cards...the card, of course, makes her much better...but without it she is still a good piece.

I do have to note...the card is what makes her actually NOT a one trick pony...with it she has Barrier AND can share a defense...without the card, then she is pretty much a basic Barrier piece.

X-Inferno
01/13/2007, 03:45
Actually...she was nerfed more by the change than most figures where, not the other way around...a 6 range HSS is actually a decent range...a 5 range HSS is decent too...a 3 range, not so decent....I think with her range being so low she got nerfed much more than high range HSSers.


I'm obviously missing your math equation...

NGN Superman pre HSS nerf : 10 +10 = 20 total range.
NGN Superman post HSS nerf : 10 + 5 = 15 total range.

Jeanne-Marie Beaulbier Pre HSS nerf: 12 + 6 = 18 total range.
Jeanne-Marie Beaulbier post HSS nerf: 12 + 3 = 15 total range.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like Superman, with his 10 range was hurt more by the rules change, than LE JMB!

She wasn't nerfed that bad, simply because she's already sporting a 12 movement.

I'm sorry, but I'd put her on my team any day over Jessica Drew who's only 1 point less, and 20 points less effective.

XStreme
01/13/2007, 04:08
I'm obviously missing your math equation...

Yes her range was lowered less overall than Superman's so from a purely statistical standpoint she wasn't hurt as bad...but I'm talking about gameplay wise.

I think she has become less playable after the change than Superman did...Superman had reasons to go up into close combat anyway...Jean-Marie you are wanting to keep as far a distance as possible since she only has a single click of HSS, no Super Strength, and only Toughness with a 16 defense. The fact that she now has to get three spaces closer when shooting makes her much less valuable in my opinion.

Greenandgold
01/13/2007, 09:36
I actually can't stand sue storm. It's not that I fear her. Far from it. I have no problem with destroying any ff team they try sneaking her in. It's the fact that she needs a card to make her good. I personally like to use a character that can stand up and deliver on their own without having to rely on a card to make them good. That's just me, though.

This response confuses me as well. How is issuing an alternate team ability through a card different than just outright changing a team ability like Wizkids did with MOE?

Either way it's just a free team ability. Total non-issue.

tidge
01/13/2007, 10:40
Actually...she was nerfed more by the change than most figures where, not the other way around...a 6 range HSS is actually a decent range...a 5 range HSS is decent too...a 3 range, not so decent....I think with her range being so low she got nerfed much more than high range HSSers.

It wasn't just the HSS-range change, it was the fact that she could no longer HSS attack for free (at range) that took her out of top-20 contention. As a flier, she could TAXI, get in a attack (with natural 3 damage!), not worry about break-away, plus not worry about costing you an action, all for 66 points.

tidge
01/13/2007, 10:46
This response confuses me as well. How is issuing an alternate team ability through a card different than just outright changing a team ability like Wizkids did with MOE?

Either way it's just a free team ability. Total non-issue.

It's a non issue (a) once a player has the card in question, and (b) until the feat card granting the ATA is retired.

If I ran the circus, WK would reprint Thunderbolts, but with some text change (at least restricting it to one TA per event) and rewrite the F4 TA on the PAC to match the ATA.

It's more likely that the alt-F4 feat will be re-issued. in the next Marvel set: the ATA is the only thing that make those pieces a viable team.

EmeraldKnight4
01/13/2007, 11:37
Here, but I leave this question for you all about what I've been saying.

If they never printed that alternate FF TA card, would you still be running sue storm as much as she has been run with the card?

tidge
01/13/2007, 11:46
If they never printed that alternate FF TA card, would you still be running sue storm as much as she has been run with the card?

Without the ATA feat, no F4 member is really worth their points (except for possibly Alicia Masters).

As Hair10 (and others) pointed out: In the era of Disbanded and Isolation BFCs, the F4 ATA is really an after-thought. If two opponents field each of those BFCs in a 3-round round-robin event, the F4-ATA/Sue Storm player is going to have to play a game without the use of the shared 19 DV.

ol_Dut
01/13/2007, 11:47
This response confuses me as well. How is issuing an alternate team ability through a card different than just outright changing a team ability like Wizkids did with MOE?

Either way it's just a free team ability. Total non-issue.


I have to agree. The FF card, which costs "0" points, provides an alternate Team Ability. Sue is the piece that wrings the greatest value out of the ATA and helps her team to the utmost. If the feat cost around 20 points, Sue's off the list becasue at that price tag, I don't think she's worth it at that point. But her point cost is unchanged. I personally hate figures that need ICWO, Protected, Nanobots, Armor Piercing and the like to be good as each of those adds to the point cost of a figure that already apparently isn't worth its points.

If the PAC were re-written, and the alternate FF TA became the only FF TA (so long healing!), there wouldn't be an ounce of debate here. At least I dont' think anyone will take up a position like: "Yeah, well that figure is only good because of it's TA." Hopefully the PAC will be re-written just that way. Until then the card does it's job for free and Sue's a realy beauty as a result.

tidge
01/13/2007, 11:54
Hopefully the PAC will be re-written just that way. Until then the card does it's job for free and Sue's a realy beauty as a result.

Then the debate will switch to the 20 DV Antman using the Thunderbolts feat to copy the "new" F4 TA on the PAC, so we'd still be debating the "does the ATA Feat card make the piece".

And we'd still be pushing Disbanded and Isolation as the anti-F4 prescription.

Mr. Pilkington
01/13/2007, 12:12
It wasn't just the HSS-range change, it was the fact that she could no longer HSS attack for free (at range) that took her out of top-20 contention. As a flier, she could TAXI, get in a attack (with natural 3 damage!), not worry about break-away, plus not worry about costing you an action, all for 66 points.

I knew I was forgetting why she wasn't used as much now. The whole ranged attack with a free move, maybe taxiing someone, was a big deal. Sure other HHSers had free move TAs, but she hit a magical balance of point cost and utility. I think you can look at Jeanne-Marie as the flip side of Sue. Sue can still do the thing that makes her really useful (via the ATA). Jeanne-Marie no loonger can (due to rules changes). She's still a useful piece, but not the superstar she was. She used to actually see play without a Thunderbolts card.:eek:

(Of course if you wanted the flexibility I guess you could have packed Thunderbolts and decided to copy Brotherhood to keep the move-and-attack option if you didn't need to Mystics your Avengers.)

ol_Dut
01/13/2007, 12:24
Then the debate will switch to the 20 DV Antman using the Thunderbolts feat to copy the "new" F4 TA on the PAC, so we'd still be debating the "does the ATA Feat card make the piece".

And we'd still be pushing Disbanded and Isolation as the anti-F4 prescription.

From that standpoint, you might as well say, "Don't play figures with powers because there's a lot of Outwit out there. Or if you must play figures with powers, make sure they've got Stealth and stay in hindering."

The fact is, the majority of players rely on team abilities when fielding a team. Whether they be folks like me who play pure theme teams 100% of the time, all the way to those who love to build the ultimate Wildcard abuse teams, to everyone in between, the bulk of players out there have the impact of their figures' team abilities in mind when they build their teams. Same thing goes for replacement values - many try to leverage the benefits of Defends/JSA, Sin Syn/Batman Enemy, etc. Many players won't use those two cards because they will hurt themselves as badly as they hurt the opposition. Since when is mutual suicide a tourney winning strategy?

Disbanded and and Isolation nerf way more than the FF ATA. Disbanded kills Power Cosmic, Batman, Ultimates, and every other TA out there. All of them. Isolation kills a pile of TA's and powers like Defend. Should we then say every figure with a TA or a power like Defend is pure junk because of those two cards? If you're not willing to say that, then the argument can't hold for Sue and Sue alone. Logic dictates.

After all, the only logical extension/solution to your (and/or hair10's) "Disbanded & Isolation" argument is to take up the following philosophy:

Never play a figure with a Team Ability or a power like Defend.

Because doing just that is the only way NOT to fall victim to those two "omnipotent" cards.

Bottom line is, I can't adopt that postion. And I'm not afraid of Disbanded and Isolation. Paranoia is not a plan.

tidge
01/13/2007, 12:43
I never hesitate to play Disbanded on my TA-pure theme teams, because my self-imposed limitation of a single TA is hurt less than a player more geared to min-max that opts for more TAs, or sinks points into Aternate TAs.

Check the "what did you play 2007" for my last team, I tried to Disband my own Defenders because I was facing a Power Cosmic Thanos, a Thunderbolts Captain Marvel, a Defenders Star Hawk and a JLA Green Lantern.

I got hit with Ordinary Day in return. :|

ol_Dut
01/13/2007, 13:05
Tidge, you know, Thanos is a great example. So is Ganthet from DC, now that I think about it. They both rank among the best pieces in the game - I doubt many would argue that. But, without question, both need their TA's to be that darn good. Thanks to their TA's they're pretty hard to beat. Should we no longer consider them to be great due to Disbanded? I can't. They're both too good.

And, yeah, I was trying not to point out the obvious, but Ordingary Day is kind of an Ulitmate Nullifer. Which is especially fitting for the Fantastic Four:laugh: .

And by the way, are you as hepped up on espresso and powdered sugar doughnuts as I am?

Mr. Pilkington
01/13/2007, 13:14
And by the way, are you as hepped up on espresso and powdered sugar doughnuts as I am?

Are those LE doughnuts? They could make the list if they are fresh!

ol_Dut
01/13/2007, 13:26
Are those LE doughnuts? They could make the list if they are fresh!

Nah, they're from a couple of days ago. But they've still got all the sugar my growing body needs!

clandestine400
01/14/2007, 03:05
Who is that character in the picture? Is it that Quicksilver guy from young avengers?

venarnage
01/14/2007, 03:14
I believe it's Mutant 2099. Anyone who thinks it looks like Gravity and Speedball combined is a loser...

XStreme
01/14/2007, 03:49
He looks like a mix of Speedball and Gravity...maybe they merged or something crazy during the storyline...

XStreme
01/14/2007, 04:00
Duh...that's Mutant 2099....dunno where my mind went...

venarnage
01/14/2007, 04:02
He looks like a mix of Speedball and Gravity


View previous post. ;)

XStreme
01/14/2007, 04:05
View this post. ;)

Last edited by venarnage : Today at 03:01.

venarnage
01/14/2007, 04:09
View this post. ;)


What? I forgot my punctuation! :cheeky:

Darth Sabre
01/14/2007, 20:25
Great list, and great job!

Edit: The Elektra movie is not only one of the worst comic movies ever; it was one of the worst movies, I've ever troubled myself with watching. All the potential it had with that cast, an nothing productive came from it.

GroovyBoy
01/15/2007, 16:41
Elektra had potential???

venarnage
01/15/2007, 17:05
Elektra had potential???

I think he was referring to Jennifer Garner....not so much Elektra.... :cheeky:

GroovyBoy
01/15/2007, 17:11
Dude, she can't even pull a Bootlegger Reverse like her Dad, Jim Rockford...

venarnage
01/15/2007, 17:15
Dude, she can't even pull a Bootlegger Reverse like her Dad, Jim Rockford...


...but she's good at pulling a :eek: .....yeah....yeah...

Greenandgold
01/15/2007, 19:44
Just deleting my worthless comment. Looks like all has already been addressed. :laugh:

CREED
01/15/2007, 21:55
2 nerfy-BFCs trump 1 feat X)

(not to mention Pulse Wave)

Really, my beef against the Sue Storm (as a top-10 LE) is that she's not that spectacular when compared to the other version of the character that exist, or that do nearly identical things.


Most games play allow BOTH players to utilize a BFC. ORDINARY DAY trumps either card you mentioned.Game on.

CREED
01/15/2007, 22:15
"D'OH!!!!!"Should've read entire thread before posting!!!!Great list.It includes figs I have,but have never played.As for ones I have played...it amazes me to see folks shiver when you put that little 100 point HULK on the map.:devious:

olcottr
01/16/2007, 13:09
I actually can't stand sue storm. It's not that I fear her. Far from it. I have no problem with destroying any ff team they try sneaking her in. It's the fact that she needs a card to make her good. I personally like to use a character that can stand up and deliver on their own without having to rely on a card to make them good. That's just me, though.
I don't know if it's so much that the card makes Sue Storm good as it is that Sue Storm makes the card good, and then the combo makes the rest of the FF good.

olcottr
01/16/2007, 13:12
#7 – Iron Man [NGN] (Supernova – no REV, 160 points, Avengers) – This is, to date, the best version of Tony!Toni!Tone! that we’ve got, but that’s not the reason he’s on the list. Running Shot, a big 11 attack, a big 17 D and 4 damage with Outwit are the start. His two targets with Incapacitate are also part of the reason. Once Running shot fades and Tony is immobile, Ranged Combat Expert shows up to let him continue to rip away for four (4) damage. Outwit comes back again on clicks six and seven, and then it’s the return of the big four (4) damage on his last click. He’s at worst useful on every single click, and at best a piece that should be able to control his corner of the map... And though it may be slightly off topic, it’s funny to note that the two best Iron Men don’t depict Tony in the more traditional armor.

This is my favorite and the NGN that pulled me out of "retirement." For those of us who started reading comics in the 80s, the Silver Centurion IS the traditional armor. ;)