Mind control and pushing damage

[tak]

If you mind control a figure who already has a token... after you make a move or an attack with this MCed fig... this fig earns a second token and is pushed?
btw... the action made by the opponent MCed figure counts on your amount of moves per turn?
thanks!

[hair10]

MC does not give the MC'ed fig a token. That rule was changed long ago (Indy rules I believe).

The action given the MC'ed fig is a free action, so it does not come from your allotment.

[HCannonFodder]

No, the MC'ed fig does NOT take a 2nd token.

Apparently, if YOU move or attack with YOUR figs, they get a token.

If I move or attack with MY figs, they get a token.

BUT, if I roll high enough & take the damage to move or attack with YOUR figs, they don't get a token.

(Could someone please send WK a dictionary so they can look up the word "logic"?)

It used to be logical - I don't know why they changed it...

[hair10]

I don't know why they changed it...
Because it wasn't costed appropriately to be Incap in addition to MC.

[HCannonFodder]

Because it wasn't costed appropriately to be Incap in addition to MC.

Neither was FireLord - but they didn't put in the FAQ to "add 40 points to his cost"

I can understand the thinking, but just move on without the change, and give MCers the appropriate point value from that point on. I'd think it'd be easier to price the newer figs, rather than adding (and changing) the rules after multiple expansions.

[Quebbster]

Neither was FireLord - but they didn't put in the FAQ to "add 40 points to his cost"

Firelord isn't really broken, he's just very top heavy and was (note: past tense) easy to abuse under the old system of rules. However, now that there is NAAT and FCCF, he isn't so easy to use anymore. He can still be a terror, but if you get one good hit in he becomes real bad real soon...

[HCannonFodder]

Firelord isn't really broken, he's just very top heavy and was (note: past tense) easy to abuse under the old system of rules.

I understand that. I recall an interview with Seth where he SAID that FL was a much lower point cost than he should have been. The MC Rules as they were before the change were NOT broken. If the power cost less than it should have, do the same as with FL - fix it in future figs.

However, now that there is NAAT and FCCF, he isn't so easy to use anymore. He can still be a terror, but if you get one good hit in he becomes real bad real soon...

That's obvious. Very few of the figs "Hulk Up", but FL does go downhill rather quickly.

Did the power not make sense to people when it adds a token? I really don't understand. Pushing equates to over-exerting onesself. If I make you do pushups after you just ran a marathon, you won't be able to do a whole lot afterwards. Your body will FORCE you to rest.

It's simple.

If I do something, I get a token.
If you do something, you get a token.
If I MAKE you do something, you SHOULD get a token.

(Esp. if I take damage in the process!)

[normalview]

It's simple.

If I do something, I get a token.
If you do something, you get a token.
If I MAKE you do something, you SHOULD get a token.

(Esp. if I take damage in the process!)


But that isn't the way it works now.

That's simple, too.

Accept it and move on. Or house rule it. Whatever floats your boat.

And since you seem to be hung up on the whole 'taking damage in the process' thing, remember that you are making the opposing characters do what you want for taking that click (or clicks) of damage. If you can't figure out a way to make controlling your opponents pieces worth a click or two of damage then MC may not be the power for you :cheeky:

[evylution]

i can understand if you just started playing and picked up an old rulz booklet, but this "horrible change" in the rulz about mind control is about as ancient to current players as the epsidoes of G.I.Joe with the Weather Dominator. We've been playing with the "new" mind control rulz for a long time and we've hashed and hemmed and hawed about it when it first changed so long ago.
its done--its been changed. its been changed for quite some time. if you don't like the power don't play with MC. Personally i was in the boat to not change the power, but i picketed Wizkids with the rest of them and we lost. so what. i don't use it normally. and besides this isnt the only game to change their rulz after its conception. try playing magic the gathering lol.

[pseudosoldier]

MC does not give the MC'ed fig a token. That rule was changed long ago (Indy rules I believe).

It was indeed Indy rules that changed it away from Incapacitrol. I believe that The Leader caused one of the biggest uproars over the inferiority of Incap to MC (although he's not really any better after the rules change, either).

It is arguable that they should have somehow beefed up Incapacitate instead of diminishing Mind Control. I don't know that the rule change was what caused more people to use Incap; I think better figure design had a much greater effect on that.

Also, it's not like Incapacitate was unused even in the early stages of the game. Incap is terribly overcosted when the figure has no range, and only really gets good on a ranged figure with two or more targets. One of the early Incap figures that got good use was E Batman (HT), although the fact that he was Bat Ally and had Willpower certainly helped out.

Regardless, this has been like this since Indy. Indy. I don't think it's changing back any time soon and I don't see a lot of reason for it to do so, either.

[Ro-gan]

MC does not give the MC'ed fig a token. That rule was changed long ago (Indy rules I believe).

Yeah, and that rule change really neutered Mind Control.

[HCannonFodder]

But that isn't the way it works now.

That's simple, too.

Accept it and move on. Or house rule it. Whatever floats your boat.

And since you seem to be hung up on the whole 'taking damage in the process' thing, remember that you are making the opposing characters do what you want for taking that click (or clicks) of damage. If you can't figure out a way to make controlling your opponents pieces worth a click or two of damage then MC may not be the power for you :cheeky:

I DO accept it, and I am also OK with taking the damage. I look at it as an investment. I take 2 clicks for MCing Supes. He turns around and does 5 damage. So I am ahead 3 clicks, overall (for (negative) damage I took + damage Supes gave)

What would you rather have? 3 clicks overall, or 3 (possibly 4) clicks, and a Supes that won't/can't attack you because they just attacked, and they're pushed, now? I'll take the second choice, thanks.

Apparently, I am annoying people (see rolling eyes), and I don't seem to be making my point very clear.

The ONLY thing I didn't like about the rule change was that they took away Incap.

[normalview]

Yeah, and that rule change really neutered Mind Control.


Yeah, because being able to make your opponents figures move/attack/do exactly as you'd like them to do is totally worthless :cheeky:

[normalview]

I'll take the second choice, thanks.


I think if we did have a choice, everyone would opt for number two.

We don't have a choice, though.

[Ro-gan]

Yeah, because being able to make your opponents figures move/attack/do exactly as you'd like them to do is totally worthless :cheeky:

Ah... but you forget when it comes down towards the end of the game and you're sitting there with U Professor X who has '0' Damage and he is against an opposing figure with a boatload of Imp/Inv/Tough and those are the only two figures still in the game.

Sure, MC'ing the opposing figure and making him move far away is all well and good, but wouldn't it be better to give that figure a Push Token everytime you did it and hopefully doing enough eventually to kill him? ;)

Two years ago I played a weeine team and only one or two persons on my team had over 3 damage. My opponent I went up against had 2-3 figures with some form of Imp/Inv/Tough. When I lost all my figures with 3 or more damage mid-game I was effectively neutered. I kept thinking how nice it would have been if my V Karma could have MC'ed and was able to do pushing damage to my opponents at the same time.

For the record: V Karma wasn't able to use MC to make my opponent attack himself because he was smart enough to keep the figures far enough away from each other so that a successful MC wouldn't enable me to attack anyway.

[HCannonFodder]

Yeah, because being able to make your opponents figures move/attack/do exactly as you'd like them to do is totally worthless :cheeky:

Read it a little closer there, killer - he said NEUTERED, not killed.

Yes, MC does still work, it's not nearly as effective as it once was.

[normalview]

Yes, MC does still work, it's not nearly as effective as it once was.

And there lies the biggest difference: I (and many others) still think it is plenty effective.

Killer :laugh:

[normalview]

Ah... but you forget when it comes down towards the end of the game and you're sitting there with U Professor X who has '0' Damage and he is against an opposing figure with a boatload of Imp/Inv/Tough and those are the only two figures still in the game.

Sure, MC'ing the opposing figure and making him move far away is all well and good, but wouldn't it be better to give that figure a Push Token everytime you did it and hopefully doing enough eventually to kill him? ;)

Two years ago I played a weeine team and only one or two persons on my team had over 3 damage. My opponent I went up against had 2-3 figures with some form of Imp/Inv/Tough. When I lost all my figures with 3 or more damage mid-game I was effectively neutered. I kept thinking how nice it would have been if my V Karma could have MC'ed and was able to do pushing damage to my opponents at the same time.

For the record: V Karma wasn't able to use MC to make my opponent attack himself because he was smart enough to keep the figures far enough away from each other so that a successful MC wouldn't enable me to attack anyway.

Oh, I remember those times, too. All I can say is that if you're down to just an MC figure, it sounds like your opponent played a better game than you did... or maybe your dice weren't on your side. One of the two.

By the way, is there a rules question here anymore? If not, I think I'll bow out of this thread now.

[IceHot]

Read it a little closer there, killer - he said NEUTERED, not killed.

Yes, MC does still work, it's not nearly as effective as it once was.

All this is opinion of course and I respect yours.

However, I did see one small benefit that the new PAC wording added to MC. Under the old rules if the figure had two action tokens on it you could not MC that fig. With the new PAC entry a fig can be MCed even if it was pushed on the previous turn.