PDA

View Full Version : Marquee Primer HeroClix A to Z – Origin Marquee Primer: Part 4 – Uniques (& Chase figs)


AZS
03/08/2007, 09:30
HeroClix A to Z – Origin Marquee Primer: Part 4 – Uniques

Origin Marquee Primer Review
Part 4 - Uniques

We didn’t get to see all the figures in time for Prerelease, but now that that is passed, the remainder of the set has come to light.

The dials for this review are based on the Prerelease Reports thread. (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2552428) Unless the figures have officially been revealed on WK site.
I apologize in advance for any possible errors.

Here’s the review schedule:

Part 1 - Commons (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191911)
Part 2 – Uncommons (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192029)
Part 3 – Rares (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192111)
Part 4 – Uniques
Part 5 – Cards(Fri)

These reviews are intended strictly for sealed, 300 point games with only this set.

Click ‘Read More…’ below for the full review.

AZS
03/08/2007, 09:39
Welcome to yet another Marquee Primer Review!

DC Origin takes us back with some real classic characters, new versions of old ones, and some other septuagenarians making their first appearance. This set also bolsters the ranks of the JSA significantly as well as giving us several new villains from the Injustice League and wildcard Calculator team members.
The set has a handful of super high power pieces and a good mix of low to mid level figs to even things out. There are a few pieces that really stand out, though surprisingly they aren’t named Batman or Superman, and aren’t necessarily Uniques either.

This review is for a 300 point, 3 booster Sealed event only.
Using a Smiley :) rating system.

:confused: – Steer clear of this figure.
:disappoin:disappoin – Not so good. Should be considered with caution.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: – Fair. Based on how you need to fill out a team.
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: – Good. Definitely consider this figure.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: – Great! Should be a top choice for your team.

These figures are compared only within the Origin set, so there will be only a few 1 or 5 smiley ratings here.
So please realize that even though your favorite character might not have gotten five smileys like you think it should, I’m just trying to be fair.

Everything written here is in the most general form possible.
Since the specific combination of figures pulled will work together to determine which are more playable than others. This is particularly true due to the high number of cooperative team abilities, like JSA, Titans, and Wildcards.


Lastly, this review is just my opinion. And these are a lot of work to write, so I ask you very kindly, please don’t get angry at me for my ratings. I give reasonable explanations for each choice. If you disagree (and you are welcome to do so), please try to do the same.

Brief comment about Origin and things to look out for:

Once again we’re looking at a lot of high defenses and moderate attack values.
Yeah, there’s not the glut of 9 AV and 17 def we saw in Sinister, but with all the JSA and Wildcards in the set, you’re sure to be shooting at more 17’s than you might think just from looking at the stats. There’s also a bunch of 18’s and couple 19’s to deal with. So the more high AV’s you can get the better.

With that in mind, make sure to have at least a couple figures with 10 or better AV who have an average chance to hit a 17.

Also note that there are a handful of uber-powerful figs in the set capable of dealing 5 or 6 damage in one hit. Make sure your team (as a whole) can survive one fig getting clobbered.

That’s all on that, now (finally) on to the review!

Part 4 – Uniques


#085 U Starman
Team: JSA
Range: 8 /
Points: 106
m-winga-normald-normalg-normal10101631091621091529915298152981528814188141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Starman is a surprisingly useful piece for his cost. At ~100 points you get someone that starts off as an attacker but finishes out as a strong support fig.
Running Shot with fair damage and good AV is a nice way to start. Leadership may be here or there depending on how you build your team. But with JSA and ES/D you might be able to do something to boost defense.
After his attack ability drops off, Starman has a whopping 5 clicks of Perplex to support his team, and Barrier to protect them. And his AV never really tanks, so he can still ping away as needed to support offensively as well.
U – :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:


#086 U Sandman
Team: JSA
Range: 6 /
Points: 59
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal791727101726916268162581515715157151KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
A good candidate for JSA to share his 17 defense. Willpower, Stealth and Probability Control make him a strong support figure for the Marquee.
His powers and abilities change down his dial, and he’s kind of hit and miss as an attacker, but with more Stealth and PC later, he makes a great support fig.
U – :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:


#087 U Blue Beetle
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 6 /
Points: 83
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal881639915399152891637815278142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Generally weak. BB has some interesting elements that you might be able to work with on a constructed team, but in the Marquee he’ll probably end up being more of a liability. This is especially true when you see that you have to push to get to his best click and then you’re giving up a click of life on an already short 6 click dial. All for a fairly hefty 83 points.
U – :disappoin:disappoin

#088 U Mr Mind
Team: Superman Enemy
Range: 8 /
Points: 68
AE Base: Shazam! (White)m-normala-normald-normalg-normal410190491803917028170KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
There are some strong elements to Mr. Mind, but the real clincher is going to be if you have other figures to pair the slug with. A Wildcard Flier would be best, to take advantage of the Superman Enemy TA. But also mainly for mobility.
His high defense is helpful, and MC + Perplex isn’t bad for the cost.
U – :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

#089 U Jakeem Thunder
Team: JSA
Range: 8 //
Points: 126
m-winga-normald-normalg-normal991839919310101828917288172871628716277151KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
This is a figure that will do a lot more good in a constructed higher point game. But 126 points for Defend and PC on a figure that doesn’t have a lot of attack potential on his own is a big investment in a 300 pt Marquee.
There’s no doubt that if you do play this fig that you’ll give your opponent a real challenge, but with such a large investment of points in a fig that doesn’t do a whole lot, ultimately the game will get away from you.
I expect some people to chime in and say they liked him in the Prerelease, but I still stand by my assessment.
U – :disappoin:disappoin

#090 U Gentleman Ghost
Team: IL
Range: 4 /
Points: 83
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal991738916288152710152710142891428813288132KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Not a bad piece for 83 points. He can be a good tie up/harasser with 17 def and Super Senses, plus Exploit Weakness makes him a legitimate threat. His mid dial AV upswing is great, but has the counterintuitive powers of Exploit Weakness and Energy Shield/Deflection. At 8 clicks deep, most of them with Super Senses, he should be tough to KO for the cost – meaning your opponent will have to invest a disproportionate amount of effort for what he’s actually worth. Plus he’s a decent secondary attacker.
U – :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

#091 U Vandal Savage
Team: IL
Range: 0 /
Points: 133
AE Base: Green Lantern/Sentinel (Green)m-normala-normald-normalg-normal81116481115481117371016371015371016279162691526815368153KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
This will undoubtedly be a fun piece to play in constructed games. There are a number of feat cards calling out to be played on him.
In the marquee he’ll still be a great piece, but might be a little harder to leverage.
Keep in mind that if Savage is carrying an object, he then can’t be carried himself. So his Super Strength might be a liability then. Similarly, the Injustice League TA is completely worthless.
However, his support powers are all great, and with so much Regen and a deep dial he’ll be hard to put down for good. His high starting AV is also a boon to your team.
U – :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

#092 U Johnny Quick
Team: CSA
Range: 0 /
Points: 77
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal1091631091624715110916210101739101628915378142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
HSS and built in PC are nice features on a fig for only 77 points. His back dial is also very strong, and he’s long lived for the cost. The thing to look out for obviously is click #3, but with most figs dealing 3 or more damage, he might get knocked right past that anyway.
Correction: You can use his TA mid-move. My bad.
(You can't use PC mid HSS if you're carrying the fig with PC, but since Johnny has it himself, he can.)
Also since the TA assigns a token to a figure for using it, you can use that to push past his lame click if he gets stuck there.
U – :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

#093 U Negative Woman
Team: Outsiders
Range: 0 /
Points: 117
m-winga-normald-normalg-normal1291631191631091528816278153771437714266142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
An interesting mix of powers (including HSS) does not automatically make a figure good. NW’s starting lack of mobility, and generally low AV (for the cost) make her a poor use of 117 points in sealed play.
Her many clicks of poison may seem like a good idea against high defense figs like Jakeem, Atom and Mr. Miracle, but poison requires her to get close and her ES/D only helps from range. Same thing with Exploit Weakness against Inv/Impervious figs. She's likely to get smacked around pretty good if you base someone to use poison or EW.
Maybe on a well built Doom Patrol team she can find a niche, but here she’s just going to bring you down. So, emphasis on the ‘negative’ here.
U – :confused:

#094 U STRIPE
Team: JSA
Range: 6 //
Points: 111
m-winga-normald-normalg-normal89183981739817391016389163881637815268152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
This would be a fantastic basic figure for about 80 – 90 points, a-la Original Iron-man. But for 111 he’s pushing the limit. The real kicker is his opening click with Running Shot but with only a 6 range. So he’s really not much of a ranger after all. High defense and CCE make him a good close combat piece, but his AV doesn’t peak until click 4, at which time it might be too late to really make good use of him. He has a lot of damage dealing potential for most of his dial, but clicks 2 & 3 with only 8 AV are real holdbacks. His short range and lack of move/attack powers past click 1 also hold him back.
Still, with a deep dial and good defensive powers + numbers, he’s not terrible either. Just make sure you have good figs that can hit, and he can play clean up.
U – :disappoin:disappoin

#095 U Batman
Team: Batman
Range: 4 /
Points: 44
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal89162791627916179151681516815268142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
The best value you’ll get out of this figure is his TA to copy. His starting click is somewhat weak. Unlike Batmen of the past, this figure is not meant to face down pieces bigger than he is. His best use will be against other low price grounded opponents, where his Combat Reflexes will count, and where his Close Combat Expert can make a mark. Turn off Willpower and push to his second click where he gets Perplex in order to help out the rest of your team.
Overall he has some decent low level attack ability, and taking his TA into account his value goes way up. Depending on your pulls he can be a real asset.
U – :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

#096 U Superman
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0 /
Points: 93
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal10101841010184991739916399163891538815288142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
With a dial full of Super Strength, but no flight, you’ll have to keep in mind that a character carrying an object cannot then be carried. So whether or not he picks up an object might be a decision you have to make at some point.
With a decent AV and good damage, Superman has mostly good stats for the majority of his dial. Its too bad he doesn’t have his own TA, because it would be nice to share. On the other hand, stand-alone, it would be a waste. If you pull other strong mid-cost figs to build a ~4 figure team with, he could be good. But on a 2 or 3 fig team he doesn’t have enough going for him to hold his own.
U – :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Chase Figures:

Supernova introduced the new super rare chase figures, and Origin carries the torch with these 4 random supporting characters.

Whether or not you get to play these pieces, if you even pull one, consider yourself lucky. Most players at your venue would happily trade a Marquee win for one of these. (Don’t do it!) So, anyone caught complaining about pulling one of these will be taken out back and given a junk shot. (Though you didn’t hear that from me.)

#215 LE Lois Lane
Team: Superman Ally
Range: 0 /
Points: 17
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7815169141681416715156151KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Superman’s girlfriend Lois Lane!
Sure, she deserved a full on figure. What the heck.
Really the only thing she brings to the table is the obvious Superman TA. At only 17 points, if you pull a Wildcard (any wildcard) who can copy this to some advantage, she’ll be worth playing. Her stats aren’t bad for the cost either, so she can be a useful throw away fig for tie up or blocking LoS.
And the best part is there probably won’t be a Superman fig on the map to come to her rescue.
Chase – :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:


LE Alfred Pennyworth
Team: Batman Ally
Range: 4 /
Points: 34
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal78151781516714166141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Well, if you pulled this but not a R Question, you’re probably not too upset. This is arguably the most sought after of the chase figs, even though he’s not tremendously impressive just from his dial. Still, he is imminently playable. Perma-stealth with Perplex is pretty sweet. Late dial Support could be a game breaker. And of course there’s the Wildcard element where you’re getting a fig who can share his very valuable TA for just 34 points.
Then, to top it all off, if you by chance actually get to use his Energy Explosion, well you’ve just gone above and beyond expectation.
Chase – :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:


LE Queen Hippolyta
Team: JSA
Range: 0 /
Points: 119
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal8101738101628101626101528915289153781437813268122KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Possibly the most playable of the bunch, Queenie here has a very solid dial for not a lot of points. Her opening attack with Incap and Leadership isn’t necessarily awesome, but feel free to push her to click 2 with Super Strength and CCE. Since she’s an impressive 9 clicks deep for her cost and very consistent, you don’t lose much with a few pushes. The glut of JSA/WC in the set should go a long way towards helping out with her defense. 4 clicks of Enhancement later also help her be a team player. A good pull for the rarity and the playability.
Chase – :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:


LE Wizard Shazam!
Team: Quintessense
Range: 10 /
Points: 206
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal71118461017361016310101651091649915398153971428713386124KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
The most powerful of the bunch, but not the most playable by far. Without any kind of movement power whatsoever, Dumbledore here is exactly what he looks like, a couch potato. He’s gotta be dragged around by a teammate, which means there’s not much chance of getting off a single target Pulse Wave attack either.
Good AV, PC, and high damage are all nice opening stats, but things go downhill somewhat fast. The Wizard only has 3 clicks of Invulnerability, after which he has no damage reducers for the rest of his dial. This alone is going to make him a fairly easy target. His offensive ability is good, since damage fluctuates between 3 and 5, but bottoms out at 2 for a click as well. Outwit and PC help round out his usefulness, but don’t necessarily cinch it. For over 200 points you’re really going to need a figure that can either hold its own (on its own) or has such impressive attack and defensive abilities for the whole dial that you don’t mind the lack of mobility. The Wizard is neither. His AV drops fast enough that the back end of his dial is mostly a waste, but the real issue is his flagging defense that will be a big liability in this game. There are plenty of close combat pieces who don’t mind mixing it up mano-e-mano, which will nerf his ES/D and PsyBlast.
All around, the Wizard is best left lounging on his Lay-z-boy at home while you play other figures (and brag to everyone else that you pulled a Chase fig and they didn’t! Nyah nyah!)
Chase – :disappoin:disappoin



Check back tomorrow for the final installment; Feats, BFCs and Pogs.

Impulse-ive
03/08/2007, 09:48
If you reverese your review of Jakeem Thunder and Gentlemen Ghost you'd be right on the money.

sniksder
03/08/2007, 09:50
#092 U Johnny Quick
Team: CSA
Range: 0 /
Points: 77

Keep in mind though that you cannot use his TA/PC mid-HSS attack.


This I forgot to do in the PR, was the main reason for that loss.......

Nice reviews as always :)

Crow
03/08/2007, 09:54
re: Johnny Quick. "Keep in mind though that you cannot use his TA/PC mid-HSS attack. "

Why not? Doesn't PC take place mid-action?

Ignatz_Mouse
03/08/2007, 09:55
Hey, it's a nitpick, but the *only* time I could not see using Lois is you you had no wildcards, which is pretty unlikely in this marquee. I'd give her 5 stars, especially considering all the stealth and hindering terrain.

Good writeups, althogh I think I'd rank Shazam a bit higher, as he will be hard to hit of his first click, and his TA is gold for a character like him.

Also, why can you not use Johnny Quick's PC mid-action? You can *always* use PC mid-action, otherwise it makes no sense.

tidge
03/08/2007, 10:06
Thank you to Aaron and the Realms crew for the abilkity to see dials in the reviews. This is prolly my favorite thing about 'new realms', and also the forum contributions to read players opinions of these pieces.

I pulled and played the Starman at the PR. I used him (and Ray) with some Perplex help to Running Shot as much as possible. Note that on his first click he can destroy terrain/objects with no help! I agree that even after he took a big hit, the addition of Perplex mad a big difference once he was relegated to distant sniping.

I faced a Sandman, and without Pulse Wave, I doubt I would have been able to beat that team, as he was supported by some nasty 80-ish point buddies. Those final Stealth+CR/CCE clicks are frightening.

I find myself agreeing with much of the reviews for this bunch: Lower cost with long dials is good, high cost with no damage reducers not so good.

AZS
03/08/2007, 10:07
re: Johnny Quick. "Keep in mind though that you cannot use his TA/PC mid-HSS attack. "

Why not? Doesn't PC take place mid-action?You are correct, you CAN use his PC mid move.
I mixed this up with the more common HSSpeedster carrying a fig with PC, who in that case cannot use it mid move.

Sorry for the mix-up.

Almighty Liminator
03/08/2007, 10:15
man... i passed up my starman in the prerelease... i didn't think he was gonna do to well... gahhh.

Zatara55
03/08/2007, 10:15
Can Johnny Quick use the CSA TA and take the token himself? I thought a teammate had to take the token.

Ultimate2099
03/08/2007, 10:22
If you reverese your review of Jakeem Thunder and Gentlemen Ghost you'd be right on the money.
Actually I played Jakeem in the Pre-Release. If your opponent is smart he ignores the rest of your team and hits Jakeem. 18-19 is hard to hit, but 3 times Jakeem gotten taken out with a lucky hit and that was that. I ended up 2-2 thanks to this guy and I usually do much better in sealed. Would have been 1-3 but E Triplicate Girl used Flurry and a perplexed 4 damage to put the hurt on V Shazam after he crit hit Jakeem into a wall and killed him in one hit.

tidge
03/08/2007, 10:23
man... i passed up my starman in the prerelease... i didn't think he was gonna do to well... gahhh.

Don't feel bad: He worked for me primarily because I had a four figure team (2 close combatants, 2 Running Shots)...and the 2 close combatants were vet Atoms: Low cost, Free move, Perplex, great stats, long dials.

Once I decided to use both Atoms, I had very little choice for the rest of my team. The only 'trick' to using Starman is to have him positioned such that he can make good use of his Perplex/Ranged attacks once he's hit off of those opening clicks.

bigbro911
03/08/2007, 10:32
With only a week to get them out, thanks for your hard work on the Marquee prep, AZS

Seems a lot of the Uniques have more potential in constructed vs. sealed

AZS
03/08/2007, 10:33
If you reverese your review of Jakeem Thunder and Gentlemen Ghost you'd be right on the money.Would you care to back this up with any points or discussion? Or is this just a drive-by "you're wrong!"?

epalicki
03/08/2007, 10:36
I would argue that, given the large number of JSA and Wildcard pieces in the set, Jakeem's defense alone rates him at least one smiley higher.

Otherwise, nicely done. I think you're spot on with those LE reviews.

AZS
03/08/2007, 10:44
I would argue that, given the large number of JSA and Wildcard pieces in the set, Jakeem's defense alone rates him at least one smiley higher.

Otherwise, nicely done. I think you're spot on with those LE reviews.Thanks.
My thought here was that with so many high defenses in the set, anyone who doesn't build with an intent to be able to hit 17's and 18's kinda deserves to lose to someone playing a Jakeem.
But finding a fig with an 11 AV (or 10 + Perplex) isn't so hard, and a 7 to hit is perfectly average.
That being the case, Jakeem shouldn't be that hard to hurt. And an average hit for 3 damage from his first click will knock him past his best defense, best AV and best damage - to put him down to 17 def with Toughness. From there he's no threat at all.
So if you've built your team around reliance on Jakeem's defense and support, you just lost 40% of your team, and your main strategy.

absolutvt69
03/08/2007, 10:56
The one thing I noticed about Jakeem Thunder in the pre-release is that people go right at him not giving him a chance to get to that 19 Defend click. He's going to be a huge target from the get go and w/ no damage reducers to start with one lucky hit is going to cripple him (and by extension) your team. I think he's a great piece but I don't think he's a "no-brainer" by any means.

Impulse-ive
03/08/2007, 11:07
Would you care to back this up with any points or discussion? Or is this just a drive-by "you're wrong!"?

Sorry, i meant it as a compliment. Here is what i saw in sealed play.

In our prerelase Jakeem with a R Shazam, and E Question and some pog. Was giving people fits. Who do you hit? Everyone went for Jakeem hitting him for normally 3 damage, then he's preplexing, plus RS along with Question perplex was pretty nasty. Not to mention his Inc. keeps lots of figs from getting too him in the first place. If you think of him as a stand alone fig his not great but, 126 points with plenty of low points figs to surround him or a couple other good figures goes a long way.

Gentleman Ghost the one time he was played seemed to fall in 1 or 2 turns of trying to tie up figs. and at 83 points he usually gave up the lead in the match

2Face
03/08/2007, 11:07
Very good article and assessments. I would only disagree with STRIPE. Is 18 def can be very helpful for other JSA/WC figures (of which there are a ton). Of course, it depends on what else you pull, but that seems to justify :) :) :) (Fair. Based on how you need to fill out a team.)

malakim2099
03/08/2007, 11:07
The one thing I noticed about Jakeem Thunder in the pre-release is that people go right at him not giving him a chance to get to that 19 Defend click. He's going to be a huge target from the get go and w/ no damage reducers to start with one lucky hit is going to cripple him (and by extension) your team. I think he's a great piece but I don't think he's a "no-brainer" by any means.

I'd agree. That's what I did against him with my Sentinel team (so weird to say that in reference to Alan and not big purple robots), and he caved pretty fast. Of course, R Wildcat doing flurry attacks on you will do that. ;)

I dunno about Lois being quite so high, but yeah, if you pull the WCs for that TA, she definitely is a must have for the point cost (I think I didn't even pull /one/ at the PR, now that I think about it...).

rancidtwinkie
03/08/2007, 11:08
Good Article, but I have too completely disagree with you on the Jakeem Thunder issue.

I faced a JT and Mr Miracle team and only managed to KO 1 figure (left behind when my opponent chased after my Johnny Quick/Mirror Master).

Hitting that 18 defense + Prob Control is a b*(#! in a sealed if you only draw 9 or 10 Attack Value figs.

coyotehatesyou
03/08/2007, 11:14
Technically, couldn't the Sorceror's Quintessence Team ability be considered a move and attack ability? After all, I don't see people complaining about Thanos with his lack of Running Shot.

Psylockeslover
03/08/2007, 11:22
On the Jakeem thing:

1. A Jakeem team won the pre-release I went to. Out of 28 people, that's not too bad. Especially considering the number of Shazams and M'onels and pretty much everything else.

2. Last night we ran a sealed tourney to celebrate the new set release, and a Jakeem team went 2-1, and almost went 3-0. (There was only 4 of us at the tourney, so 3 of us went 2-1)


So, in my experience, Jakeen is worth at least 3 smileys....

Nice review though....

AZS
03/08/2007, 11:32
Technically, couldn't the Sorceror's Quintessence Team ability be considered a move and attack ability? After all, I don't see people complaining about Thanos with his lack of Running Shot.Its not the lack of move/attack powers, its the lack of any movement powers at all.
Thanos at least starts with Phasing and high movement so he can get in deep or break away easily.
Thanos also gets better when he gets hit (or at least his damage goes up and AV stays good.) Wizard doesn't fare so well.
Mainly its his 3 clicks of Inv followed by no damage reducers thereafter that make him too glass jawed.
Lastly, the Wizard might fare well in higher point games where he can be properly suppored and feated, but in a 300 pt sealed game he's not good enough to hold his own.

sengirv
03/08/2007, 11:43
Sometimes I just don't get these reviews AZS. You praise starman because he offers leadership, and perplex almost 1/2 down his dial. You gush over him being an 2nd tier attacker, but ding others for going from a 10AV to an 9AV the same way Starman does. You exalt his JSA ability to share defense, yet you ding others due to the NEED to pull complementary pieces(TA needed to share this defense). Starman is seen as a team player once he takes a bit of a hit as well. Starman rates a 4 in your book

But then you look at Jakeem Thunder and see nothing but contempt. JT is just 20 points more than Starman, yet you get PC, 18 defend, and two target INC to start off with - don't forget the same range. JT has either perplex or PC down his entire dial. If that is not being a true team player, I don't know what is. Then realize he can share either 18, or 19 defense for his 1st two clicks AND he's a JSA(something you like about Starman). I just don't understand how you can love Starman(4 rating) and hate JT(2 rating) given what they both bring to the table.

Of course it all depends on what else one pulls. Those 20 points might mean the difference between fielding an E or V hawkman/steel/Booster Gold. It just seems to me that you give credit to some characters, and detract from other over the same things.

I love the reviews, honestly I do. This is just a bit of a debate/observation based on some of the reviews. I just can't honestly see why these two figures rate a 2 point rating difference. If I pull nothing else but REV Phantom Lady and REV Mano's I know I'm going to want a high defense/PCer like JT thunder over middling attacker like Starman. The same could be be said about pulling a whole bunch of good figures as well.

Iago
03/08/2007, 11:43
I played Jakeem, Stripe, rookie Atom, and vet Blackhawk at the Ottawa pre-release, and didn't even try to push to Jakeem's 19 defense click. With 3 18 defenses and a 17, the first click of PC seemed more useful to me - defensively and helping me to hit. I placed third, and thought Thunder and Stripe played well, but can't fault their low ratings here. Without the right teammates their flaws are more glaring.

Furthermore, i was fortunate to win the third-place game - it was down to my Jakeem versus my opponent's J. Quick. He crit missed a HSS attack, CSA/probbed it, then critically missed again (for two damage as the CSA token made it a push).

jiggle_billy
03/08/2007, 11:55
Very good article and assessments. I would only disagree with STRIPE. Is 18 def can be very helpful for other JSA/WC figures (of which there are a ton). Of course, it depends on what else you pull, but that seems to justify :) :) :) (Fair. Based on how you need to fill out a team.)

the thing is for his high cost, that 18 defense w/toughness is all he brings to the table. and for over a third of your marquee build total Stripe is just not that good

AZS
03/08/2007, 12:00
Sometimes I just don't get these reviews AZS....Ok, since you seem to want a head to head comparison...

Starman: 2 clicks of running shot. Starts with RS, fair damage and good AV. Does better damage on clicks 2 & 3. Offers support later with a whopping 5 clicks of perplex, plus barrier.
I think Starman offers a good mix of offense and support.

Jakeem; 20 points more (if you don't think 20 points is significant, that's on you.)
Has to push to get to his best defensive click. Has to push again to get to a click with good av and RS. Has perplex and PC for support, but don't fill the offensive role as well since the RS and better AV are buried on clicks that are likely to get knocked past. This makes him mostly a support piece, for 20 more points than a fig that fills 2 rolls.
That's the difference.

Also, try not to get mad at me for giving the ratings. I didn't say he was a bad figure, he got 2 smilies which is just below average. Neither fig got 1 or 5, which is a panning. I just don't think Jakeem is that great in this format. Clearly people have different opinions and have posted them.

tidge
03/08/2007, 12:20
I think that Jakeem is hurt (in the Marquee format) by the likelihood of what else is to be pulled. Remember, you will get 6 commons, 3 uncommons and 3 rare/unique. For the most part in this set, the rare/uniques are going to be your damage dealers: they have the move and attack, high AVs, and defense busters.

Also note the point values: at 120+ points, Jakeem and the Ori-Djinni approach almost half your build total...and if your pulls are like my PR ones, you are going to have to settle on 1-and-only-1 other big gun, or scrape by with a mob of 60-ish point figures that you have to figure out mobility, and trust that shared defense to protect your figures.

Personally, I would never push Jakeem off of the prob control, without already having the upper hand. In a set like this, I think the re-roll is a much better bet than a (possible shared) extra DEF point.

gatharion
03/08/2007, 12:38
The best value you’ll get out of this figure is his TA to copy. His starting click is somewhat weak. Unlike Batmen of the past, this figure is not meant to face down pieces bigger than he is. His best use will be against other low price grounded opponents, where his Combat Reflexes will count, and where his Close Combat Expert can make a mark.

Actually because of his TA he's pretty good at tangling with flying opponets as well. Most people like to park their ranged attackers in hindering (espacially flyers) so as to make ranged retaliation more difficult. Since hindering generally comes in clusters that take up multiple squares it is fairly likely that Batman can charge into some hindering where he can't be shot at despite his enemy's movement symbol. Thus tieing up a rnged attacker and forcing said ranged attack to deal with Batman's Combat Reflexes.

I played Sandman at the pre-release and he was pretty handy, espacially when helping out Wildcat. The two had a nice synergy. He also tended to be targeted pretty quickly and didn't stay on his opening click for long.

Thanks for these reviews, the've been a high-light of my work days this week.

sengirv
03/08/2007, 12:42
Ok, since you seem to want a head to head comparison...

Starman: 2 clicks of running shot. Starts with RS, fair damage and good AV. Does better damage on clicks 2 & 3. Offers support later with a whopping 5 clicks of perplex, plus barrier.
I think Starman offers a good mix of offense and support.

Jakeem; 20 points more (if you don't think 20 points is significant, that's on you.)
Has to push to get to his best defensive click. Has to push again to get to a click with good av and RS. Has perplex and PC for support, but don't fill the offensive role as well since the RS and better AV are buried on clicks that are likely to get knocked past. This makes him mostly a support piece, for 20 more points than a fig that fills 2 rolls.
That's the difference.

Also, try not to get mad at me for giving the ratings. I didn't say he was a bad figure, he got 2 smilies which is just below average. Neither fig got 1 or 5, which is a panning. I just don't think Jakeem is that great in this format. Clearly people have different opinions and have posted them.
I'm sorry if I came across as being mad. Not my intention at all. Just friendly ribbing if anything.

20 points is significant, I'll grant you that. But 18 defend, PC figure is pretty darn nice, especially WITH the high defenses you will also be facing. As I look thru the figures sandman is the only other initial PCer in the whole set that can be pulled at the Marquee.

I've always found PC to be an AMAZING power to have in a sealed tourny. So maybe I rate the benefit a bit higher than you do. Depending on what team I'm facing, I might not look to push JT off of that 1st click as readily as you would.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. And again, I'm sorry if I came off as angry, it was not my intention.

I think it boils down to your personaly preferences being different than mine. You appear to weigh point total VERY highly compared to other factors when rating a figure. While I would agree with you in a constructed min/max format, I don't think it is as big a part in a sealed event due to the greatly limited number of figures to pull from.

Ghost_Rider
03/08/2007, 12:46
Jakeem is AT LEAST a 3 (if not 4), no question. This dude helped me secure second place! :p

Yes, it's true that if your opponent manages to hit his 18 or 19 defense the house of cards will crumble, but when you add his PC into the mix it makes it a much harder task to accomplish.

Plus, a smart player will position wisely and shouldn't be putting him in harm's way anyways.

Factor that in with the multiple CR or Energy Shield/Deflection figures in the expansion to stick by Jakeem's side, and he's very tough to deal with. Especially since there is so little poison.

saturnflight
03/08/2007, 12:54
So Jakeem's a lot like Xorn then.
Amazingly good at a niche, but so good at it that you can't throw him in without a major investment. Jakeem (like Xorn) would probably be dominating at 500+ points.

biz567
03/08/2007, 12:57
Nice review! I'm neutral on Jakeem, I'd have to play him to say whether or not I like him or not. But I totally agree with Batman and Johny Quick, those two are some sweet pieces! I hope to pull them at the marquee(If I go) but they are my biggest wants out of this set. So again, nice review!

Impulse-ive
03/08/2007, 13:03
So Jakeem's a lot like Xorn then.
Amazingly good at a niche, but so good at it that you can't throw him in without a major investment. Jakeem (like Xorn) would probably be dominating at 500+ points.

Actually I think Jakeem would be hurt in higher point games since you could feild pleny of figs able to his the 18 D twice. In the 300 point sealed it's is hard to pull figs that can consistantly hit an 18. Sure wildcat and a few others, have an 11 attack but there aren't a lot. I had to feild a team with no double digit attacks. Just hitting Stripe was a task. :cry:

Impulse-ive
03/08/2007, 13:05
Batman was great for me. 44 points for 7 clicks of life. I don't know how many times i got asked "he's still up?"

bill4935
03/08/2007, 13:10
Great job, AZS! Thanks for such a well-thought out analysis.

I'd just like to make a few comments:

1. People, keep in mind these reviews are just for Sealed Marquee play. Also, AZS has been doing this for 3 years now, give the man some respect. (Heh, remember when he gave V Scourge only 4 stars?? My family still giggles about that around the dinner table...)

2. Seems to me, but for the exception made for Nova Blast, that all yellow powers are only good on low-point figs. Your high-point figs don't have time to be healing or defending when they should be doing damage. (Also why they should have RS, HSS, or Charge instead of Phasing - a power that cries out for the Passenger feat.) Pulse wave is great, but it's tricky to set up for more than 1 damage dealt.

Look at all the great low-point yellow power figs: Blizzard, Vanisher, Lockjaw, Paramedic, Invisible Girl, (Shadowcat sort of). And all the less-than-great high-point yellow power figs: Korvac, E Sasquatch, IC Kang, U Prof X, and (IMHO) Black Bolt.

Anyhow, thanks for changing my mind about Starman and Vandal Savage! I just read Savage's origin in JSA Classified, and now I'm hoping to pull him!

joeldad
03/08/2007, 13:20
I would argue that, given the large number of JSA and Wildcard pieces in the set, Jakeem's defense alone rates him at least one smiley higher.


I would agree because Jakeem has Defend at an 18 starting (obviously lol) and with the large amount of ES/D and CR in this set, he could easily pump up shrimps like Batman and Starman to 20 defenses, a 21 at range for Starman. And when the average attack in this set is like what 10 you need an 11 to hit everyone.

Sandman definitely seems like the piece to pull though, forget the Monel's and Supergirl's, for 59 points he's a game breaker for his cost. Throw in maybe a Johnny Quick AND Jakeem Thunder (and a Triplicate Girl for taxi)? Yeah, triple prob control lol...and since the pogs are so plentiful you'd have plenty of CSA fodder as well.:)

Ghost_Rider
03/08/2007, 13:22
One other thing about Jakeem:

My Jakeem faced another Jakeem in the second round. In the first round, I lost no one (except Mr. President) and swept the entire team. So I assume the other Jakeem had a similar record to mine to be paired with him.

Now, I did beat Jakeem in the second round, but I didn't do it by cracking his 18 and 19. What I did was wait until he had a token, then I placed E Mano next to him, but also next to my Jakeem so my Mano also had an 18.

My plan was to force him to attack (and hopefully miss since he'll need a nine twice as I could still make him reroll). It worked, and I was able to poison him past the 18 and 19. After that, he didn't last too long.

I guess my point is that he definitely isn't invincible, but he's still tough to take down. I was fortunate enough to pull somebody that had poison, but this set doesn't have much of that power.

So I'd say Jakeem is being severely underestimated in this review.

sengirv
03/08/2007, 13:29
One other thing about Jakeem:

My Jakeem faced another Jakeem in the second round. In the first round, I lost no one (except Mr. President) and swept the entire team. So I assume the other Jakeem had a similar record to mine to be paired with him.

Now, I did beat Jakeem in the second round, but I didn't do it by cracking his 18 and 19. What I did was wait until he had a token, then I placed E Mano next to him, but also next to my Jakeem so my Mano also had an 18.

My plan was to force him to attack (and hopefully miss since he'll need a nine twice as I could still make him reroll). It worked, and I was able to poison him past the 18 and 19. After that, he didn't last too long.

That was kinda the point I was trying to make. Would you rather have a Jakeem if you pull all mano's or would you rather have a Starman?

Entropy
03/08/2007, 13:43
That was kinda the point I was trying to make. Would you rather have a Jakeem if you pull all mano's or would you rather have a Starman?


if you pull all mano's sure, although that would be a statistical improbability (much like hitting jakeem)

i think i agree with AZS for one simple fact, jakeem is incredibly useful with the right pulls, and with those pulls he can be a dominant figure at a marquee. that said due to his dial layout (which is wonderful in my opinion) he is tricker to play, trickier still when you take into account yoru inability to directly build around the dial.

wheras with starman, he basically plays as two figures in one. starman starts as a run in shooter taxiing someone, maybe giving you an extra action. then he gets nailed, and shifts into a second figure. that second figure is a hang behind perplex your friends, use barrier to protect, or lock down HSS pieces on the indoor map (if JSA map is used). something he excels at, because almost no hit will knock him past perplex/barrier on one hit

starman rates as a 4 star vs. jakeem due to his straitghforward, general ease of usefulness. wheras jakeem is trickier, and has a bigger target on his head

it is all opinion obviously, but i think his argument has merit. besides AZS (not to speak for you) loves barrier, a superb power, and it will be easier to utilize that on starman then on jakeem ;)

tidge
03/08/2007, 13:47
it is all opinion obviously, but i think his argument has merit. besides AZS (not to speak for you) loves barrier, a superb power, and it will be easier to utilize that on starman then on jakeem ;)

Your message was full of great points...except that Barrier is going to be a wasted power on the JSA map: lots of hindering, lots of potential for broken walls, limited lines-of-fire, and changes in elevation.

vadersson
03/08/2007, 13:51
Just to chime in on Jakeem and Gentleman Ghost. At least at my Pre-release The only team I lost to (in the finals) was a Jakeem Thunder team. The 18 Def + PC is really nasty, esepically since everyone else on the team was JSA and they stayed clustered. That gave everyone an 18 def. I did break it, but by that time I had too little left in the tank to finish it. (That on Mon-el's stupid 3 crit miss of the day.)

The game against G Ghost was an easy one. G Ghost did almost nothing. He was frequently out of position and also had a short range. His team ability is also quite useless. Maybe I just got lucky against him, but he really was not very impressive.

Thanks,
Duncan

Entropy
03/08/2007, 13:51
Your message was full of great points...except that Barrier is going to be a wasted power on the JSA map: lots of hindering, lots of potential for broken walls, limited lines-of-fire, and changes in elevation.


i understand your point

however, the uses of barrier are so diverse, and even forcing someone to have to break it or a wall, or removing adjacency in certain situations makes it always useful

Ghost_Rider
03/08/2007, 13:56
Your message was full of great points...except that Barrier is going to be a wasted power on the JSA map: lots of hindering, lots of potential for broken walls, limited lines-of-fire, and changes in elevation.

Actually, I used Barrier quite effectively in the third round. If I hadn't separated most of my opponent's force from mine, I wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as I did. And if I had 2 Barrier guys, I may have been able to take down a few figures with me.

elfholme
03/08/2007, 14:09
Good review. I kinda agree with the others on Jakeem deserving another smiley, but I think you've backed up your position pretty rell, so what the heck. I think the rest are spot on.

anonym0use
03/08/2007, 14:55
This is what I think:
I think from a damage output aspect Starman rules the roost, which is why he's got more smileys than Jakeem.
I think if your strategy is comprised soley of having a high defense, then you deserve to lose, and lose hard.
I think if you rely on high defense to win, then you're basically hoping for a win.
I think it is better to concentrate on KO'ng your opponent than hoping for a win.
I think that if Starman were to square off against Jakeem, Starman has the upfront edge of being able to move into position with Running Shot and fire.
I think that given the lack of TK in this set, this is why Jakeem rates somewhat low.
I think that merely pulling a Jakeem in an Origin sealed event will not guarantee a victory, the way that pulling a KCGL would have for Legacy.
I think Jakeems usefulness depends on what else you pull.
I also think that Jakeem deserves another smiley. :)

Ignatz_Mouse
03/08/2007, 14:59
Furthermore, i was fortunate to win the third-place game - it was down to my Jakeem versus my opponent's J. Quick. He crit missed a HSS attack, CSA/probbed it, then critically missed again (for two damage as the CSA token made it a push).

And that, children, is why you should say "No!" to drugs.

Seriously, that's legendary bad luck.

Wolverine_Hulk
03/08/2007, 15:00
Great Article!!!

tidge
03/08/2007, 15:03
Actually, I used Barrier quite effectively in the third round. If I hadn't separated most of my opponent's force from mine, I wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as I did. And if I had 2 Barrier guys, I may have been able to take down a few figures with me.

Who was setting up the barrier? For me, I had barrier on Starman, and at one-third of my force, I needed him to be shooting, not giving opponent's an opportunity to rest (or escape base-to-base)!

I'm well aware of the utility of Barrier in Heroclix; nevertheless I stand behind my point that I do not find the JSA map to be very Barrier friendly.

dariusq
03/08/2007, 15:16
If you reverese your review of Jakeem Thunder and Gentlemen Ghost you'd be right on the money.

Or even just average them (ie. 3 smilies each).

Impulse-ive
03/08/2007, 15:19
That is what i was thinking. :)

Ghost_Rider
03/08/2007, 15:19
Who was setting up the barrier? For me, I had barrier on Starman, and at one-third of my force, I needed him to be shooting, not giving opponent's an opportunity to rest (or escape base-to-base)!

I'm well aware of the utility of Barrier in Heroclix; nevertheless I stand behind my point that I do not find the JSA map to be very Barrier friendly.

It was Jakeem's, after he was a victim to a lucky shot from Lantern (twice).:ermm:

Don't get me wrong, I think because of Jakeem's cost he's not perfect, but the fact is defensively he is the best figure in the set. And it's not so much relying on luck either when you have PC to boot for a little extra insurance against attempts to hit that 18.

While it's also true that your other pulls may affect his usefulness, you are going to be using three boosters. So you are going to have 11 other figures, and you're bound to have 2-3 good figures (as there isn't much bad stuff to complain about) and that's being conservative.

Papa Smurf
03/08/2007, 17:57
I saw Supes tear it up in the prerelease,

And I really wanted to pull mister mind, 19 defense with Perplex whats not to love?

Pashmina
03/08/2007, 18:39
*looks at Negative Woman review*

:(

*looks at Negative Woman's dial*

:(

*looks at Negative Woman's sculpt*

:p

*looks at Negative Woman's dial*

:cry:

Gorrack
03/08/2007, 19:20
Yeah, good review except Gentleman Ghost seems really weak. 3 at best. ( I wouldn't play him )

Jakeem seems incredible. I don't get how he isn't a 4 or a 5. Not only does he have an 8 range, but he deals 3 and a solid 9 attack. The 9 is actually much better than that, as he has Prob. So the odds of him ( OR OTHER TEAMMATES! ) hitting is much higher. His 18 defense is even HARDER to hit due to Prob as well. Plus, he gives the whole team 18 defense as well? ( and the chance to re-roll attacks! ) The figure is going to be very difficult to hit, AND supports a whole team for 126 points? I'd want to pull him more than any other U in this set for the Marquee, personally.

WarHULK
03/08/2007, 19:53
Those are some pretty interesting ratings. I would have rated Gentleman Ghost and Vandal Savage one less, and Jakeem at least one higher.

The key to using Jakeem is to A) always keep him in hindering and B) stay on the first click w PC as long as possible. The PC is useful in this set where many figures don't get higher than a 10 attack. So, not only was I keeping him from getting hit, I was also helping my low-ish attacks on my other figures so I could hit the 18's and 19's in the set. I only lost one battle and it was due to my bad rolls and an E Knockout that crit with quake twice.

I can agree to disagree, however.

Sigdr
03/08/2007, 20:34
Man, I'm glad you rated Gentleman Ghost so high - he deserves it, too. What a stylish (and very playable) fig.

Emberwild
03/09/2007, 00:09
I find it interesting that most people that love Jakeem are mostly using him as a defensive support piece. And that is a lot of points tied up in supporting the rest. Looking at his dial it looks like he is trying to do too much and just doesn't quite do anything really well. Starman on the other hand is 2 characters on seperate parts of the dial. He starts agressive with decent attacks and running shot. Jakeem has to go 2 clicks before he starts to look offensive. I think Azs has the ratings just fine on these two figures. I will most likely play Starman regarless of what else I pull. I would play Jakeem depending on what I pull.

Ville
03/09/2007, 05:51
My favourites from the U section are Johnny Quick and Supes. Johnny I regard as the new king of cheap HSS figures, and Superman is irresistibly solid piece on his own. Both will find their way into my Marquee team if I´m lucky enough on my pulls.

I just can´t wait till tomorrow. I believe it´ll be the most interesting Marquee ever!

tidge
03/09/2007, 09:41
I will most likely play Starman regarless of what else I pull.

I know that in my circumstance, the other two rare/u slot big guns I pulled (apart from U Starman) were R Cyborg Superman and V Martian Manhunter...so given the lower cost of Starman and his Running Shot+10AV I felt as if I had no choice but to use him.

IMO: The downside of Seth's good dial design is that while many of the characters will do well in constructed, in sealed play one or two (usually rares/uniques) tend to dominate. It's just my personal opinion, but some of Jon-L's worst (for the constructed game) sets offered great variety in sealed play: X-Plosion (cheap Perplex and Support in sealed leads to great variety), Icons (I saw Vet Superman beat in sealed play), Legacy (I saw several KC Flash and KC GL teams lose sealed events).

Ghost_Rider
03/09/2007, 10:39
I find it interesting that most people that love Jakeem are mostly using him as a defensive support piece. And that is a lot of points tied up in supporting the rest. Looking at his dial it looks like he is trying to do too much and just doesn't quite do anything really well. Starman on the other hand is 2 characters on seperate parts of the dial. He starts agressive with decent attacks and running shot. Jakeem has to go 2 clicks before he starts to look offensive. I think Azs has the ratings just fine on these two figures. I will most likely play Starman regarless of what else I pull. I would play Jakeem depending on what I pull.

That's exactly what he is, a defensive support piece. But he doesn't just boost the defenses of adjacent allies, he also contributes PC (and even Perplex if you want to push him on that 19, although I personally wouldn't do that), AND can Incapacitate characters.

So yes, if all you were getting was the Defend, then he's not worth the points. But when you add PC and Incapacitate to the mix, and some cheap scrappers like Wildcat/Knockout/Catman/Mano/Etc, His value skyrockets.

Ghost_Rider
03/09/2007, 11:46
#093 U Negative Woman
Team: Outsiders
Range: 0 /
Points: 117
m-winga-normald-normalg-normal1291631191631091528816278153771437714266142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
An interesting mix of powers (including HSS) does not automatically make a figure good. NW’s starting lack of mobility, and generally low AV (for the cost) make her a poor use of 117 points in sealed play.
Her many clicks of poison may seem like a good idea against high defense figs like Jakeem, Atom and Mr. Miracle, but poison requires her to get close and her ES/D only helps from range. Same thing with Exploit Weakness against Inv/Impervious figs. She's likely to get smacked around pretty good if you base someone to use poison or EW.
Maybe on a well built Doom Patrol team she can find a niche, but here she’s just going to bring you down. So, emphasis on the ‘negative’ here.
U – :confused:

How is a 12 speed with Phasing a "starting lack of mobility" AZS? :cheeky:

I know you probably meant move-and-attack powers, but I just think that should have been made a bit more clear since the 12/Phasing is actually pretty good for this set.

Rurouni KJS
03/09/2007, 15:53
How is a 12 speed with Phasing a "starting lack of mobility" AZS? :cheeky:

I know you probably meant move-and-attack powers, but I just think that should have been made a bit more clear since the 12/Phasing is actually pretty good for this set.

No kidding. Plus her Poison makes her Jakeem's worst nightmare. Add in the fact that she gets HSS very early on, and Negative Woman most certainly does not deserve the abysmal one-smiley rating in sealed.

As for Jakeem, any figure with PC + 18 Defend + double-target 8-range Incap is at least a 3-star fig. Yeah, he's a support fig, but he's one that makes the team better and can still hurt any enemy on the board for over half his dial. That's worth three smileys, yo.

Re: Barrier on the JSA map...it's very good. Hampers and helps HSS figs and really closes off those LOFs. Won me a tournament on the map a few weeks back.

tidge
03/09/2007, 15:58
Re: Barrier on the JSA map...it's very good. Hampers and helps HSS figs and really closes off those LOFs. Won me a tournament on the map a few weeks back.

I played a multiple-barrier Brotherhood team on the JSA map...they did very well...but none of my opponents tried to "make" more hindering terrain to stop my eveil schemes. I guess I must officially change my stance on JSA map/Barrier to "neutral" :)

Sigdr
03/09/2007, 18:20
No kidding. Plus her Poison makes her Jakeem's worst nightmare. Add in the fact that she gets HSS very early on, and Negative Woman most certainly does not deserve the abysmal one-smiley rating in sealed.

I wouldn't say "worst nightmare", as Jakeem can hit her sorry 16 DV with his starting 9AV + PC easily.

scholarx
03/10/2007, 21:01
Well, here's one more guy chiming in about young master Thunder:

Let's face it, he's not a '2' rating fig. I wouldn't go as far as 4 either, but a steady, average 3. Why? PC and Defend of 18 are a great help, especially for a flier who can carry other figs into the fray. Plex and a 19 Defend is even better, in my opinion.
To explain, I was lucky enough to pull Jakeem in my Marquee today, and also got a very decent brick piece, r. Shazam. I rounded out the force with e. Wildcat (who had the highest attack value available from my pulls) for 297pts. While I do see the value in the PC, I also saw each of my 3 opponents able to achieve an 11att on at least one figure (but only one opponent I faced could manage a 12). So, was I going to keep Jakeem out there in line of sight to use PC with his 18? No way. I pushed him to his 2nd click with the 19Defend, and kept him OUT of line of sight to opposing figs as much as possible. With Shazam able to run out, whack an opposing fig for (at least) 4clix, then jump back (and kiss himself) to a 19defense next to Jakeem, my force was pretty nasty. Since I kept putting Shazam and/or Wildcat between Jakeem and the opposition, no one ever knocked him past that 19def (though it wasn't for lack of trying). I went 3-0, only losing Wildcat once in the first round. I highly doubt that would have happened without Jakeem's formidable 19def protection.
Even without a lucky Hypersonic brick pull like mine, Jakeem could be a major asset to nearly any decent attacker in the set (especially those with ES/D).
-Is he one of the best pulls available for this Marquee? No, that would rate him 5 stars.
-Is he a great asset that one should always consider? Not necessarily, because depending on what you pull, if he doesn't leave enough room on your force for at least one solid primary attacker, you're depending too much on defense and not enough on offense. ...So not quite 4 stars.
-Is he: "Fair, based on how you need to fill out a team"? Absolutely. With just one or two decent primary attackers, Jakeem can make those attackers very hard to hit, and help them out with PC or Plex. Definitely 3 star material.

number6
03/11/2007, 03:39
The Jakeem debate...lots of good points...I can honestly say that his double duty Defend and JSA is really nasty...and if that was all he did he'd be overpriced and worth 2 faces.
But the 8 range, 2 arrows, with perplex makes him a highly effective secondary attacker and truly incredible support piece.
I won 2 different matches vs Jakeems, but it required a lot of rolling (thank goodness for all the flurry in this set), and a lot of figures got sacrificed (KOed), and I usually had to ignore Jakeem (using Outwit on his defend) and deal with either of my opponents primary attackers.
My "favorite" :rolleyes: of which was Vandal Savage who did savage my team by pushing past his outwit into perplex...gee Jakeem AND Vandal Savage double perplexing each other...weeeeeeeee. Take 5 dmg, take 5 dmg, take 5 dmg....Jakeem's a beast, and with the right follow up figures just nasty:cry:
I'll be glad not to face anymore of him in any sealed events. Bring on the Gentleman Ghosts pls :cheeky:

scholarx
03/11/2007, 21:34
Further Jakeem props... In today's Marquee, I happened to pull him again! (Since entering into this discussion, I kind of had a feeling I might... and lo and behold, there he was in booster 3.)
This time, though, I didn't pull a brick as nice as r. Shazam. This time my best attack values available were 10's - one on the end of v. Damage's dial, and one at the beginning of r. Supergirl's dial. So, naturally I had to pick Sgirl, pack some 3D objects that help with attack, round out the force with an e. Blackhawks fig and hope for the best.
Now, I didn't win this Marquee... Even though I swept the 1st and 3rd rounds, during round 2 my Blackhawks fell to a lucky roll of 9 from a rookie Mon-el (his 10att vs. Jakeem's 2nd click 19Defend to the adjacent Blackhawks). Since my opponent was managing nice high defenses too (Stripe was carrying a desk to protect the 18def JSA he was giving to Mon-el and e. Wildcat), I was unable to KO anything on his force. When time was called, only my Blackhawks were down, so to speak, giving him a narrow win.
So, with Jakeem's help, a mediocre primary attacker and decent secondary attacker held their own very, very well for 3 tourney rounds. Considering that only one of my figs was KO'd during only one round of the Marquee (and the same is true of the previous Marquee, I only lost e. Wildcat once in that one), I have to reconsider my position: I think Jakeem is worth a 4 rating, even in sealed format. That 19Defend, plus the help of Perplex to let Supergirl (and previously Shazam) go after the opposing fig with the best chances of hitting that 19, is just phenominal... and quite the thorn in each of my opponent's sides. You go, Thunder!:cool:

X-Inferno
03/13/2007, 06:08
Just like to chime in on the Jakeem debate... I pulled him in my Marque event and built an extremely poorly ballanced team of Jakeem Thunder, E Valor, and the 12 point pog (name?) For some odd reason, I made the mistake of thinking Jakeem was grounded and Valor would carry him around the board.
Regardless, I still managed to go 2-1 practially sweeping my last games after I figured out how to play my team. I lost my first game due Pushing Jakeem onto his 2nd click. NEVER, push him onto that 2nd click for no reason. PC is far more valuable than the 19 defense! My opponent proceded to roll ( I kid you not) Back to back Crit hits, followed by an 11 attack and an 11 attack. Inbetween this I managed to smoke one character for 5 with Valors RCE, then next turn I pushed Valor to crit fail... and that's pretty much all she wrote.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is... no, I don't think Jakeem deserves a 5, or even a 4 in sealed play, due to the fact it only takes one lucky shot... but to give him only 2 stars is down right silly!

I don't know where they are, but I wouldn't mind hearing about all the people that won or came in top 4 at their Marques using U Starman! So far we've heard allot of Jakeem teams placing top 4 or first place, but I haven't heard of any starman teams doing the same.

One last thing... The reason I'd rate Jakeem the atleast a 3 and drop starman down to 3, is because Jakeem brings something unique, and can add a very usefull strategy to a team. Where as starman, I see a whole bunch of figures in his price range that I would use before him! He hasn't impressed me... and he's very easy to KO! AZS states "Starman is a surprisingly useful piece for his cost. At ~100 points you get someone that starts off as an attacker but finishes out as a strong support fig."
Imo, Starman doesn't finnish out, once he's knocked down a few pegs, he's easilly dispatched before he get's a chance to use those strong support powers.

tidge
03/13/2007, 09:46
I don't know where they are, but I wouldn't mind hearing about all the people that won or came in top 4 at their Marques using U Starman! So far we've heard allot of Jakeem teams placing top 4 or first place, but I haven't heard of any starman teams doing the same.


I haven't played in a Marquee, but my PR Starman team went 3-0 and came in second on points. The team defeated a Vet Steel/Exp Hawkman/R Question team, a nasty Vet Copperhead/Sandman/V Mirror Master/Shadow Thief and friends team, and a Vet Martian Manhunter team.

The toughest team turned out to be the Stealthy team, primarily because I had to base them and sit through a series of crit hits. Starman transitioned nicely from a primary attacker (surviving hits deep into his dial) and then acting as a ground support with his Perplex and 8-Range.

gatharion
03/13/2007, 10:05
I used Sandman at the prelease. He's definetly four smiley worth. He was great paired up with E Wildcat and V Mr Miracle.
I was 3-0 and had second in points.

At the marque I used two different uniques. Batman. Who also earned his four smileys. He was a great tie-up close combat piece. During one game he got into a "swing-and-miss" game with E Shadow Thief (due to Shadow Thief's defense powers and Batman's combat reflexes) and after awhile I wasn't sure who was tieing up who.
The other U I used was Mr. Mind. He was freaking awesome and the main reason why I went 3-0 and won the marque. However, despite how well I did with him I can't really disagree with him only getting three smileys. He wouldn't have been nearly as devestating without having had Mon-el to go along with him. HSS, flying, wildcard, w/ Mr. Mind equals nasty.

Anybody else think that it is a little unfair to Mr. Mind that he is archenemies with Captain Marvel? It's not as though he's really capable of KOing the big red cheese himself. (Unless I misunderstand things and a figure mind controled by the bug would count as the bug for archenemy KOing)

As for the two most contensious figures, Starman and Jakeem, I pulled both in my brick, but haven't had a chance to play them yet. I'll probably use one or both of them at a tournament this weekend. Yay JSA goodness!

Mr. Pilkington
03/13/2007, 11:44
I pulled a Jakeem in the marquee, and didn't get the support he needed. I tried him in one round but made a tatical mistake (and the deck was so very stacked against me anyway). My poor performance earned me the Bye for round 3, so I never got to tweak my Jakeem team.

In the first round I passed him up for E Supergirl, E Cat-man w/Disintigrate and V Cat-man. Against a team of R Mon-el and U Superman I crumbled (Mon-el popped Supergirl first with HSS, she missed Superman's high Def, Supes hit her onto her own HSS and Monie pushed to finish her off... whee, there went 192 points!).

Round 2 I tried fielding:

U Jakeem
V Cat-man
V Shadow Thief
E Phantom Lady

300 points even.

I faced:

V Shazam!
U Blue Beetle

Ugh! I made a mistake in placing my cluster of 18 Def peeps, allowing a diagonal square to Jakeem. The big red cheese popped him with a generator, leaving Jakeem on his last click (Marvel use Perplex on his attack just in case... had he done damage Jakeem would have been a display of broken dreams in the museum in one hit). It was down hill from there. I successfully KOed Beetle and Jakeem's PC was helpful, but I wasn't touching Marvel. Things came down to Jakeem v. Marvel. This is where the whole thing got fun. Hopeless, but fun.

Jakeem wasn't proud. He ran like a little punk. Marvel actually hurt himself a few times due to a crit miss on a push and another crit miss. He ended up on a click with CR and Plast, so Jakeem turned around and pulled his 9. BLAM! Shot Marvel for a click! Grinning at his smoking gun he failed to even see the Quake attack that followed up and smeared him across the map.

It was so funny to see V Shazam! giving himself fits trying to chase Jakeem down. I had removed the Thunderbolt from the flight stand after taking 7 damage (explaining that the genie clicked the pen himself after that hit, merely saying "Not so cool."). So a little punk kid was running around the museum being chased by all the thunder and lightning of the world. At the end we figured that it was all started by Billy having the new Blue Beetle over to visit only to find that Jakeem had eaten all of the Doritos. Not satisfied with working things out as teens, they rapidly powered up and threw down. In the end, though, Jakeem promised to never eat all of Billy's Doritos again. :grin:

gatharion
03/13/2007, 12:58
It was so funny to see V Shazam! giving himself fits trying to chase Jakeem down. I had removed the Thunderbolt from the flight stand after taking 7 damage (explaining that the genie clicked the pen himself after that hit, merely saying "Not so cool."). So a little punk kid was running around the museum being chased by all the thunder and lightning of the world. At the end we figured that it was all started by Billy having the new Blue Beetle over to visit only to find that Jakeem had eaten all of the Doritos. Not satisfied with working things out as teens, they rapidly powered up and threw down. In the end, though, Jakeem promised to never eat all of Billy's Doritos again. :grin:

Hilarious!

Darn super-powered teenagers.

I could actually see a fight like that occuring in the comics. Not because of doritos, but because Jakeem was angry at Billy for breaking Stargirl's heart.

scholarx
03/13/2007, 17:05
Entertaining story, Mr. P... The only thing that doesn't sound right about it is the tweaking of teams. You know that's illegal, right? Even if the House Rules for the venue state you can do such things in normal sealed or draft events (always a bad idea, but if everybody at the venue likes it, so be it), you can't have any House Rules during a Marquee. The team you turn in to the Judge at the beginning of a Marquee is the team you must play for the duration of the tourney, period.

Mr. Pilkington
03/13/2007, 17:24
Whazzah-hoozza?

When was that changed? Lemme go check the Approved Play doc.

Mr. Pilkington
03/13/2007, 17:41
Okay, looking in the official tournament rules there is no specific statement saying you can swap out characters (as was the standard for sealed tournaments for a very long time) but it also does not explicitly state that you cannot swap figures out. It seems to only mention building a tournament legal force, which would tend to support the idea that you cannot change your team between rounds since it never mentions revisiting said force. I can't remember how the old Approved Play document worded everything, and of course I can't find any soft copies of it.

Can anyone else shed more light on this whole deal? Especially information on when this change dropped? If this is the case then my local venue has been illegally house-ruling things to be the old way without realizing it.

On a side note, that makes sealed events a LOT less enjoyable for me. Part of the fun was trying out a different combo of the (possibly carpy) figures you pulled when your first attempt totally tanked. Color me potentially even more disappointed with the state of the game today. :(

scholarx
03/14/2007, 00:21
As far as I know (and I've been playing since the first day IC came out), there has never been any rule allowing player to change their forces mid-tourney in any format.
Put it this way: When you attend a Constructed event, can you edit your force mid-tourney if you lose a round? No, of course not. So why would you think you can do it just because the format is Sealed (or Draft)?

If you need a good reason as to why this shouldn't be legal, it's fairly simple: it's a form of cheating. Sealed formats, like this Marquee, set a limited amount of time for opening boosters and building a force not just to give the event an exciting pace and get things moving; it's also to make sure that every player has an equal amount of time to try to build the best force they can from what they pulled. If players were allowed to change the force mid-tourney after seeing how their original force does, it's like allowing them an entire round of playtesting and then letting them remake their force accordingly. For the players who lost the first round, this might seem fair, but it isn't. A player who wins his first round probably isn't going to think much about editing his force, so he'll keep it the same... but a player who didn't win that round, under your venue's rule, will most certainly 'tweak' his force since he's allowed to do so, and quite possibly turn the tide, perhaps unfairly turning his force into the one to beat for the tourney.
Let's say at the end of such a tourney, no player has a 3-0 record, so the highest points among the 2-1 record players decides the victor. If one 2-1 player never edited his force (perhaps because the single loss came in round 3), should he be allowed to lose against a 2-1 player who changed his force from its original incarnation, managing 2 wins after his 1st round loss? No way. The Swiss-style pairings of HC tourney play pretty much guarantee that any player who wins in the first round has to face another 1st round winner (or at least a 1st round loser with high points), making the second round win that much harder for him. Meanwhile, under your venue's allowance, the first round loss 'tweaking' player not only gets to face a much less dangerous opponent, but also with a fresh, new and improved force allowing him better chances at a 2nd round win. Does that sound fair to you?

Sorry, this is really not meant to come off as preachy... I'm just trying to give every convincing argument I can to let you know how wrong mid-tourney force tweaking would be if allowed in HC. Hopefully someone else will chime in and confirm this as well for your assurance.:classic:

elfholme
03/14/2007, 08:38
As far as I know (and I've been playing since the first day IC came out), there has never been any rule allowing player to change their forces mid-tourney in any format.
Put it this way: When you attend a Constructed event, can you edit your force mid-tourney if you lose a round? No, of course not. So why would you think you can do it just because the format is Sealed (or Draft)?

If you need a good reason as to why this shouldn't be legal, it's fairly simple: it's a form of cheating. Sealed formats, like this Marquee, set a limited amount of time for opening boosters and building a force not just to give the event an exciting pace and get things moving; it's also to make sure that every player has an equal amount of time to try to build the best force they can from what they pulled.
<snip>

AFAIK this has never been legal either (and I've been playing since IC too, and was a judge shortly after I started playing, for about 2 years).

I think one reason that it wouldn't be fair is not so much that it's unfair to winners or losers, but that it's unfair to people who use their whole time alotment for the round...if you finish game 1 in 30 minutes, that gives you a game of experience plus another 20-30 minutes to think about changes to your team, while a guy who uses his full time in round 1 only has the time the judge would take to set up pairings in round 2 to redesign his team. That's obviously giving some players more time than others to build teams.

It also opens up a "sideboard" concept that's kind of ugly and a potential game-slower. You could have players changing their builds based on what the opponent is fielding, and if both players are trying to do this, you might get a "Mexican Standoff" situation.

In any case (regardless of our conjectures as to why), it's not allowed in the rules. And to be honest I'm glad that's the way it is.

AZS
03/14/2007, 09:50
The other problem of switching teams between rounds is that the judge then has to check that all the teams are legal and within the build total.
How does one keep track of what was in the original pulls, that are subbed in? Do you write down all 12 figs and cards at the start?

It just seems like an invitation for trouble.
I've never seen this, and would never allow it myself.

Mr. Pilkington
03/14/2007, 10:24
I'm not looking for discussions on morality/cheating. I understand people's points to that matter. There is no "convincing" required here. I'm looking for old Approved Play documentation. I am not trying to make judgements on whether or not it is a "fair" way to play, I'm just trying to find if there ever was a rules precedent that would have caused the venue to start the practice. As it is I will be bringing the issue up with the local judges to make sure people know that it appears to be a house rule (at least at this point) and thus illegal in Marquee formats.

scholarx
03/14/2007, 10:36
I think one reason that it wouldn't be fair is not so much that it's unfair to winners or losers, but that it's unfair to people who use their whole time alotment for the round...if you finish game 1 in 30 minutes, that gives you a game of experience plus another 20-30 minutes to think about changes to your team, while a guy who uses his full time in round 1 only has the time the judge would take to set up pairings in round 2 to redesign his team. That's obviously giving some players more time than others to build teams.
It also opens up a "sideboard" concept that's kind of ugly and a potential game-slower. You could have players changing their builds based on what the opponent is fielding, and if both players are trying to do this, you might get a "Mexican Standoff" situation.
Yet another reason why mid-tourney 'tweaking' would be considered cheating in my book. A player who takes a quick loss could potentially look around at other tables as to what's being fielded, and try to make his team to specifically counter the next opponents he might face. No matter how down players might feel about their first round losses, I can't imagine anyone could consider themselves somehow justified in being able to change their force after seeing what others have played. You don't get to see what other people are playing and make your force accordingly... that's why everyone makes the force at the beginning of the event (for Sealed/Draft) or beforehand (for Constructed), and no one is allowed to make any changes for the duration of the event. Anything else would be a cheat, remaking your force based on what you've seen others play. It is not and has never been allowed in the regular HC rules... and any venues/judges who would allow such a thing as a House Rule aren't taking into account all the possible negatives, general unfairness, and cheat factor of allowing mid-tourney force changes.

It might seem like fun to you, since after a 1st round loss you might think you're completely out of the running for victory, so what's the big deal. However, there is the possibility that no player goes 3-0 (I've seen it happen), so you might have a 2-1 player who correctly hasn't changed his force for the entire event, and some 2-1 players who have tweaked. In all honesty, despite where the most points might be, shouldn't the player who stuck to his guns for the entire event be the victor over other players who changed their teams? Also, if in the 2nd round you're a 1 loss tweaking player facing a 1 win non-tweaking player, is it fair to him that he has to face a 'better' team than your first opponent had to deal with? It might seem fun and harmless to you, but to that player who still has a shot at a 3-0 record, it's quite unfair to face an edited, more challenging force than your first opponent had to beat.

:nervous: Sorry, I do keep going on and on, don't I. It's just so wrong on so many levels, it's hard for me to believe anyone would allow such a thing. The best thing you can do is talk to your Judge and see why that person thinks sealed/draft events (and especially Marquees!) are run this way, and then nip it in the bud. I guarantee you, if you ever attend a sealed or draft Heroclix event at a convention and tried to 'edit' your team after the first round, people would look at you like you're fresh out of the asylum.;) It's just not allowed, and with several good reasons. You're not going to find anything in any old rules document, because it never was allowed. As to why your venue/judge thinks it is or ever was allowed?:confused: Sorry, can't help you there, mate.:classic:

Mr. Pilkington
03/14/2007, 10:58
Look folks, I get it. Any additional posts to the effect of "that's totally wrong" don't really do anything for the discussion. I have moved on to trying to find why the venue plays in this manner. It seems to me that the judge at another venue (before the current venue ever had tournaments) back in the Hypertime Marquee explained the format that way. That was my first WizKids tournament ever, and was for some of the other players here who have been in for long time. It is entirely possible that it was a mistake back in the early days, before good documentation was published and the tournament scene was as established, or even just a misunderstanding by that Judge, and it was never really questioned.

Regardless, I have contacted all of the area Judges who have been involved with the venue and should have things resolved shortly.

Thank you for everyone one who has chimed in so far on this issue and I apologize to everyone else reading for having inadvertently hijacking the thread.

I have to say, having been a Judge for a long time in the past, finding out you were doing something wrong for so long really makes you feel stupid. :(