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ol_Dut
05/31/2007, 14:24
http://www.hcrealms.com/gallery/data/500/carter_hall.jpg
Hawkman was shocked to discover that, "Hey, baby! Weren't you my girl in a past life?" was a bad pick up line.


Few characters have a history as potentially confusing as Hawkman’s. However, what isn’t confusing at all is the fact that Origin has a new Carter Hall LE. Will he be as invaluable and indispensable as the old Hypertime Carter Hall was or should he get sent back to ancient Egypt to be lost for all eternity in the desert sands? Click on “Read More” for today’s journey into mystery.

ol_Dut
05/31/2007, 14:24
Here are the dials for our two winged wonders.

#206 LE Carter Hall
Team: JLA
Range: 4 /
Points: 70
m-winga-normald-normalg-normal101017381016281116210915388153971438814279132KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#059 E Hawkman
Team: JLA
Range: 4 /
Points: 90
AE Base: Shadow Thief (Orange)m-winga-normald-normalg-normal101117210101628101527916379163881536815367142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

http://www.hcrealms.com/units/or206.jpg

LE Carter Hall’s Gains vs. Experienced Hawkman
Weighing in at 20 points less than E Hawkman, one wouldn’t expect that Carter has much in this category and that assumption is correct. Cater adds two clicks of Flurry, one of Toughness and two of Combat Reflexes. Although it may feel more like a loss, he also “gains” three clicks of Battle Fury which negates his stubby four (4) range. Completing the list we see that Carter has generally better speed values.

LE Carter Hall’s Losses vs. Experienced Hawkman
Considering the overall point spread between the two figures, this is the list of elements that is worthy of close scrutiny. The most obvious loss is the fact that Carter does not have an Archenemy base. All two of those people who live in mortal fear of the many iterations of the Shadow Thief may now breathe a collective sigh of relief. But that’s not all that’s vanished like an old oak table. Gone, too, are Super Strength and Quake. The largest outright reduction is the loss of three clicks of Charge, which, considering the high level of desirability for mobile figures this ranks as Carter’s first major black mark. Of lesser concern are the departure of two clicks of Energy Shield/Deflection, one of Willpower and one of Close Combat Expert.

Neutral Dial Tinkering
Most noticeably, Carter opens with three (3) damage, drops to two (2), and then climbs back to three (3) again before closing his dial with a pair of twos (2’s). Experienced Hawkman simply moves from two (2) damage, to three (3) and back again.

Cards that Work
Since Carter has ES/D, Combat Reflexes CCE, or Flurry for most of his dial, Damage Shield may act as a deterrent to attacks from some opponents. Disintegrate may also provide him with a form of protection by allowing him to remove an adjacent enemy’s object from the game when he’s on his CCE clicks. Making the most of his Battle Fury and Willpower, Revenge aids his attack value for a key attack during the last half of his dial – provided that at least one of his teammates have fallen. And lastly, since he’s rather pushable early on, Shellhead is also an excellent choice – boosting his defense up to an 18 when he pushes off his first and/or second click.

If ol_Dut had to Choose
I may be alone in this, but I’m really not a big fan of the Origin Hawkman REV. The Rookie is very economically priced, but you get what you pay for. The Experienced has a nice price tag, but his opening damage is too low for a 90 point figure. All the way on the other end of the spectrum, we have the Veteran. He’s 135 points of no range, middling defenses and damage that drops too low too quickly for a figure that would basically need to lead a 300 point team. That said, an awful lot rides on Carter Hall’s wings. If you accept the above, he basically needs to save the Origin REV from itself. Can he do it? You’d better believe he can.

Carter Hall proves his mettle on his first click, where for an affordable 70 points he Charges in for three (3) damage, outdoing both R & E Hawkman in the process. A quick push later and Carter can swing twice for two damage, or pound away once for four (4) with CCE depending on the needs of the situation. Just as important, that push also puts him a click with a damage reducer. The Battle Fury, while it does negate his unimpressive four (4) range, likely does more good than ill. As a close combat figure, he’s not going to be doing much with that tiny range anyway, and in all likelihood it probably serves to lower his point cost a bit. The rebounding attack values not only serve to make Mr. Hall pushable, but they also indicate that he can take a hit and retain his utility. On the RE and V alike, it’s a steady downward slide for their attack values.

Some may lament the passing of the E Hawkman’s Super Strength, and admittedly it is a useful power. However, the placement on that blue-ringed dial is somewhat less than optimal. Stuck in his mid-dial, he may be knocked right past it without ever using it. And even if he lands on a Super Strength click, by the time he gets it, the best objects have surely been taken and/or used, and any that remain will, in most instances, not be conveniently located for his use. It looks better than it is, and it won’t be missed. E Hawkman’s Quake holds a similar lack of promise. It falls late in his dial where it nicely overlaps with some of his three (3) damage clicks. Nine times out of ten, players will be far better served to make the roll and do three (3) damage at that late stage rather than drop his best damage down and push some bad guys around. Neither of these losses are really losses in that light.

For 70 points, after all this, what we’re left with is a stripped down version of Hawkman who thankfully has the true essentials and all the right numbers in all the right places. Sure that Vet looks nifty, but at twice the price and with only one more click of life, who is really the better choice? Say it with me; LE Carter Hall. He’s the best of the bunch. The Hawkman of Hawkmen. The lead duck as it were. History has repeated itself as once again a Carter Hall LE has outshined a Hawkman REV. He’s one of the few MUST HAVE pieces from the set.

Quick and Dirty Price Tag
Remember that great old campaign slogan that went, “A chicken in every pot”? Well for $10 to $13 you can get a Carter Hall in every tackle box. That’s a very fair price for a figure that no one should be without. Win him, buy him, trade for him, just get him. Now would be good.

That’s all for this week. Next week we’ll have even more Origin stuff. And prepare yourself for “The 20 Most Wretched, Foul and Deplorable LE’s Ever Perpetrated on HeroClixers”. It’s coming sooner than you think. Thanks for reading!

MadCap#1
05/31/2007, 14:59
Excellent review as always and I totally agree. I was lucky to pick this piece up on Ebay ($5.75!). He was the version I most wanted, like his IC counter part was also.
A question: Compared to the other Hawkmen, he seems like a great pick, but what about against other similiar point range figures? I was asking myself this same question when you rated James Macdonald Hudson.

biz567
05/31/2007, 15:08
Great review! I think Carter is much better then the E, and he is the only Hawkman that I really want from this set, so I hope to win him. He's such a good bargain for 70 points! And that little upswing at the end of his dial is just icing on the cake!

KO Bossy
05/31/2007, 15:23
Personally, I like the V because of the Regen, higher starting AV and the natural 4 damage. Id take him over Carter Hall. However, still a great review ol_Dut! Lookin forward to the next one!

Granite Moose
05/31/2007, 15:34
Nice review of one of my favorite characters.

And it just so happens that I won him last week at my venue. :cool:

St. Cuthbert
05/31/2007, 15:35
I agree with you, ol_Dut, the Origin Hawkmen aren't reallly that good. They're a lot of points for one good offensive hit and then go down quickly, especially the V.

That being said, I really like the LE and I want to win him! I think he's probably the best of the Origin Hawkman, although he doesn't hold a candle to the Hypertime LE (my personal favorite representation of Hawkman, ever).

anonym0use
05/31/2007, 15:42
What are the odds that so many Justice Leaguers weigh out to be 70 points?

G'nort? 70 points
Hypertime Steel? 70 points
LE Ralph Dibney? 70 points.
LE Michael Carter? 70 points
LE Dark Knight Detective? 70 points
LE Carter Hall? 70 points

Coincidence?

I think so...


Great review as always.

Throw me in the Vet's camp: 12 AV, 4 Damage and opening Superstrength make him the man - of course, I've faced off against the Vet often, and he's more than likely (if he's not paired with a TK'er) to be a prime target and get dropped from the top of his dial before he gets a swing in.

hobgoblin22
05/31/2007, 15:46
I agree that the LE is probably the best value for the points, however the vet is my favorite. He is a beast at 135 points and can be a serious threat to 200+ point pieces.

daponteclix
05/31/2007, 15:56
I could not agree with you more about Vet Hawkman being overpriced. I mean, how will he even cross the field with 135 points of firepower waiting on the other end to blow him away at range. And even as a close combat piece he's costly. I'd rather play Karnak if I need close combat. Good article.

absolutvt69
05/31/2007, 16:01
Personally, I like the V because of the Regen, higher starting AV and the natural 4 damage. Id take him over Carter Hall. However, still a great review ol_Dut! Lookin forward to the next one!

Well yeah but how many more points is he? I really like the LE for both his stats/abilities and point cost. The Vet is fun but he's pricey and while he can deal out the pain he's also not THAT hard to KO, especially in close combat. Now the LE isn't that hard to take out either but he's also almost half as expensive. I would say unless it's a high point game I'm going to be reaching for the LE 9 times out of 10.

Neff
05/31/2007, 16:25
I knew that Carter Hall was the best Hawkman from the set the minute I saw his dial. I tried as hard as I could to win him at my venue last week, but ultimately failed. :cry: Picked one up on eBay today instead.

nevismusic
05/31/2007, 16:29
aboslutely agree. the LE is now the only hawkman i regularly play. before the LE came out i'd use the R and sometimes the V but rarely the E. the other versions just didn't have enough effectiveness for their points for me. the LE, on the other hand, has the best aspects of the REV set (except the regen found on the V) for a bargain price.

Ghost_Rider
05/31/2007, 16:34
I wholeheartedly agree. CH has the best layout of powers and abilities for the price, and is definitely the LE that I want most from the set.

Awesome review!;)

The Werle
05/31/2007, 16:35
I'd say your review is pretty accurate, but my love of the Vet Hawkman isn't diminished. His defensive shortcomings are easily dealt with using the JSA TA, and I've had very good results using him as an Inspiring Command centerpiece. Giving the JSA's midrange damage dealers like Stargirl and Wildcat willpower helps to bring a lot of hurt.

epalicki
05/31/2007, 16:42
I want this one so bad it hurts. (I was out of town last week, and couldn't make the heroclix tourney.)

The loss of the AE base really is notable: at 70 points, Carter Hall would've been a perfect candidate for vendetta.

Nice review.

theanalogkid
05/31/2007, 18:08
Great review. Carter was the LE I really needed from this set and I was able to trade for him.

eshuroger
05/31/2007, 18:58
Also worth noting that the LE has the cool helmet and harness of the Rookie. Since I've mostly only seen the V being played, it'll be nice to see a little variety.

Don't mind the Battle Fury...just thought it weird that this was the only version to get it (sort of like the LE John Jones being the only Martian Manhunter to have Shape Change). Combat Reflexes shouldn't really be there. Aside from it being less useful on flying figures, there are a lot of defense powers that fit Hawkman better, but minor quibbles aside, this is a great piece.

Juxter
05/31/2007, 19:42
I also ended up with a Carter Hall in my grubby little paws, and I do like him.
I think I agree with the points-cost assessment...V Hawkman is a mighty wind and all, but I'm sometimes afeared of making my main beatstick on a 300pt team a fella with pretty much nothing in the line of damage reducers...whose moltworthy nightmare is a TKed Karnak (or other such dude. Juggernaut, for instance.) in his face when he's trying to get across the board to cause the mayhem you *know* he wants to cause.

70 points, though? Carter Hall can fill in just about anywhere, and do a really good job of being a harasser/secondary attacker, if not even a sneaky primary on your low-point matches.

And the E Hawkman, who is really the one at which all this comparison should be made? I like the LE for the 'hill crosstrainer' levels of attack scores, but whichever is the best complement for the rest of your force, you can choose that one. And if you like Vendetta, well, the choice is no choice at all...

gatharion
05/31/2007, 20:12
I recently got the LE, but haven't had a chance to use him yet. I like him as a nice subsititue for for the E when I want to make my JLA teams and save some points.

The Vet is still the one I'm most likely to reach for though. I do agree that he can be a bit tricky to use in 300pt games, but I have found him to be dynamite in 200 pt games and in 400+ games.

Mjolnir
05/31/2007, 20:20
uh huh.... you laugh at Shadow Thief..... you giggle and berate him.... but know this: At the prerelease my V Hawkman was humbled by Shadow Thief, yes humbled by that orange pile of villainous bile! Granted R Green Lantern, Damage, and friends whittled him down a bit but the coup de grace came from Shadowthief, curse his inky, oleaginous hide.
So, scoff all you want... but 270 Points is not something to s###### about in a tournament.

And I might have won if not for that cretin..... maybe. ;)

By the way, nice article but, as always, I pick the fig I want to play and make a team with that fig..... besides..... I have 3 R hawkmen...... so Carter Hall and The Thanagarian Police Force are just waiting to crack some heads......er...uh... I mean uphold the Law. :noid: :nervous:

The Werle
05/31/2007, 20:53
Anyone laughing at Shadow Thief hasn't sat across the table from me when I play the Exp version. He's the best sub 50 point tie-up in the game, and with Vendetta he can present a nice threat to larger figs with his EW.

NeoShazam
05/31/2007, 21:06
Decent Review...

The Rookie and Veteran Hawkman are amazing though, and I firmly believe that people don't fully know how to play them, because they've bludgeoned opponents for me.

Once a certain 20 DV, 15 HSS flyer is out of the constructed environment the Hawkman R-V will be much more appealing.

Haven't used Carter Hall yet but I will.

And in sealed play I hit Shadow Thief onto Invul and Shape Change and then I couldn't kill him.

batjester
05/31/2007, 21:16
This was the main LE that I wanted from the set, so to make sure I got one I traded for him. Good thing too, since I wasn't able to play the week he was the prize.

I love the fig. For me he is about the perfect point cost for a brick. I will be using him often.


I actually made up this LE team for the next 300pt tourny I go to:

Carter Hall
Michael Carter
Ray Palmer
Tornado Tyrant w/nanobots


Could be fun.

Kite-Man
05/31/2007, 21:35
I like the Rookie with Haymaker.

But it's a good LE.

Rurouni KJS
05/31/2007, 22:41
I'd say your review is pretty accurate, but my love of the Vet Hawkman isn't diminished. His defensive shortcomings are easily dealt with using the JSA TA, and I've had very good results using him as an Inspiring Command centerpiece. Giving the JSA's midrange damage dealers like Stargirl and Wildcat willpower helps to bring a lot of hurt.

You are right. Many are wooed by the Vet's sky-high AV into using him as an alpha-strike piece, and they always pay dearly for it.

I'll still field Carter Hall if I ever need a non-JSA Hawkman, though.

zero_cochrane
06/01/2007, 05:43
I haven't played or played against a Hawkman yet, but I have to say that he looks like one of the better LEs from Origin. I'll likely keep him if I win one, whereas I'm prepared to trade most of the others.
And prepare yourself for “The 20 Most Wretched, Foul and Deplorable LE’s Ever Perpetrated on HeroClixers”.Let's see how many of them I own. :cheeky:

(Oh LE Tomoe Gozan, if only you weren't the first LE I ever won I would throw you away...)

tyroclix
06/01/2007, 09:03
Good analysis.

Carter's cost is what makes him so useful. He's a threat to anyone on the map yet not so much he's a prime target.

I agree with your view on the REV Hawkman.

The Rookie isn't bad.

The E is too expensive for that moderate stats. He can hit anyone but can't necessarily hurt them. And the mid-dial Super-strength is tough to use on a close-combat figure as he's likely to be already in a fist-fight when it appears. Quake I like a lot better - knock them back then range them for 3.

The Vet's biggest problem is who he's likely to go after. The Vet doesn't have the stamina to take on figures around his cost. He's got a GREAT first click but mid-dial he's gonna get dropped quick by the 100+ point figures you are sending him after - and only having ES/D, Willpower and Toughness isn't enough for him to endure sustained combat.

Ghost-x
06/01/2007, 11:01
I think I disagree on this one. While I think he is a good piece, I would not choose him over the rookie. His combat reflexes are pratically wasted because he is a flyer, and the rookie being 13 points cheaper doesn't lose much.

I think the vet is a good buy for what he does as well.

BLACKHEART25
06/01/2007, 15:22
It really is hard to say...I love the rookie and he has never failed me. The experienced isn't that good at all. The Le stomps the experienced, but the rookie has so much willpower and cce. Not to mention the vendetta. Tough choice indeed.

gatharion
06/01/2007, 17:04
There are two ways in which I have found the vet to be really affective.

As the front line attacker that everyone wants him to be, but with Protected, Auto Regen, and a little JSA support to keep him a long-lived threat for quite awhile

The second way is with Inspiring Command and surrounded by a bunch of JSA (good for games that are more than 300). Have everyone else do most of the attacking and then swoop Hawkman in for clean up (or high defense targets) when needed. I've been pretty succesful with this strategy with the major exception of Nova Blast teams, those wipe me out.

Doc Nebula
06/01/2007, 22:01
I very much want a Carter Hall LE, but my reasons are weird -- to me, he's the real Hawkman, the Hawkman I grew up reading... the one who was in the JLA, and who didn't have any superstrength.

I know it's weird to want a version of a character that is less powerful than the more commonly available REVs, but I honestly do not recognize this new, Flying Fortress Hawkman we're seeing in current issues of JSA. I want a Hawkman who can be effective in a fight (which leaves the lousy Hypertime Hawkman right out) but I'm not looking for one who can bench press a Cadillac. To my mind, Hawkman just shouldn't be able to pick up a car and beat someone over the head with it. So, to me, the most recent Carter Hall LE is the Hawkman to have.

I was a little surprised that you didn't compare this Carter Hall LE with the Hypertime version, who for a very long time was the closest thing we had to a playable Hawkman. Still, there's really no comparison at all; all previous versions of Hawkman can now be consigned to the rubbish heap with a sigh of relief; thank de Lawd for ORIGIN!

gatharion
06/02/2007, 07:36
I very much want a Carter Hall LE, but my reasons are weird -- to me, he's the real Hawkman, the Hawkman I grew up reading... the one who was in the JLA, and who didn't have any superstrength.

I know it's weird to want a version of a character that is less powerful than the more commonly available REVs, but I honestly do not recognize this new, Flying Fortress Hawkman we're seeing in current issues of JSA. I want a Hawkman who can be effective in a fight (which leaves the lousy Hypertime Hawkman right out) but I'm not looking for one who can bench press a Cadillac. To my mind, Hawkman just shouldn't be able to pick up a car and beat someone over the head with it. So, to me, the most recent Carter Hall LE is the Hawkman to have.

I do enjoy the big bad Hawkman as represented by the Vet, but I am also happy to see the LE which also corresponds reasonably well to my favorite version of the character. Namely the Silver Age/Bronze Age version. I'll definetly be using the new LE Carter Hall on a satellite era JLA team soon.

George Smiley
06/02/2007, 19:32
ol Dut,
Another good article. I've had some recent luck with the V Hawkman and I disagree with your opinion that the REV Hawkman is over-priced or over-rated. How about listing about a half dozen non-restricted figures you think are substantially better in a point range comprable to the E or V?

rwint1968
06/04/2007, 14:01
Nice review, thanks ol_dut.

It's too bad that Hawkman isn't that usable, you'd of thought they would have given him better range and/or more usable powers and abilties. I'd have to echo those who are saying use the Hawkman V. His AV and starting 4 damage make him the most likely used piece of the Origin Hawkmen.

Thanks,
:cool:

eshuroger
06/04/2007, 17:28
I just used Carter and the LE Ray Palmer in an all JLA team last week. They both worked splendidly, overall. Not a bad team either, though lacking any real big hitters.

E Green Arrow (42), E Aquaman (56 + 5 Submerged), E Red Tornado (53), V Elongated Man (75), LE Ray Palmer (58 + 20 Brilliant Tactician + 10 Nanobots + 6 Coordination + 5 Passenger), LE Carter Hall (70). 400 total.