Metal is a sub-genre of rock now?

[spacedye]

Er... what?

[Dark Flash2099]

Like I said in another topic, there actually isn't just "rock" music anymore. There hasn't been for about 20 years. Every thing has either fallen under Metal, Pop Rock (which would be under Pop), Punk, Alternative, or Classic Rock. From there you go into sub-genre upon sub-genre.

[andrewtarius]

Metal is a sub-genre of Rock music. The the harder end of the spectrum. There are many sub-genres.

[spacedye]

Metal definitely deserves it's own board. Sure, maybe it spawned from Rock (Sabbath said they were influcned by the Beatles and other bands of the era), but it is most definitely not a sub-genre of it. Metal should be it's own stand-alone board. Making it a sub-forum of Rock only hurts it.

[Dark Flash2099]

Metal is a sub-genre of Rock music. The the harder end of the spectrum. There are many sub-genres.

Bull. Metal became it own genre in the late 80s. There is no more "Rock" music.

[turdburglar47]

Are you actually arguing that metal isn't rock? Who is that anal?

[Dark Flash2099]

Are you actually arguing that metal isn't rock? Who is that anal?

Nothing is just straight "rock" anymore. Hasn't been that way since the 80s. Go look in any record store that isn't a major chain one. I highly doubt that the Metal will be in with Pop Rock (which actually is probably just called Rock) or that the Punk will be with the Alternative.

[andrewtarius]

Bull. Metal became it own genre in the late 80s. There is no more "Rock" music.
It's gone through Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music) without correction and All Music Guide (http://wc04.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=73:20). THe ones that doen't plain just list 50 genres on the same page. Unfortunately, in a forum, we can't do that right now (all of the processing will crash the server).

[spacedye]

Metal is rock to a point, just like pop is, or punk. Every genre can ultimately be traced back to another, but that doesn't make them sub-genres. Metal has long since split into it's own, and it deserves it's own full-fledged forum among the others. If it doesn't work or lacks distinct activity over a long period of time, sure, downsize, but right now I think it can succeed.

[charlesdward]

I hate genres.
Do you think Black Sabbath, back in the 60's, said, "Hey, I know - let's put together a heavy metal band"? No. If anything, they were more of a blues band back then. Same with Zeppelin.
There were no genres then, there were just bands. Nobody pigeonholed themselves into a tidy little category, and were free to be more diverse in their songwriting. Look at the Beatles - they just did whatever.
Nowadays you get kids wanting to start a metal band, or an emo-rock band (what the hell is that anyways), and limiting their options to a predetermined sound and look.
Categorizing music serves nothing but to kill creativity and originality.


Ok, rant over - it's a bit of a pet peeve with me, as you can see...

[spacedye]

Categorizing music (and all things, really) for the purpose of social interaction and discussion, especially on the internet, is needed. Should all bands be labeled? No, but they would end up being labeled in the end.

If there were no genres for bands to be thrown into it would stay that way not so long. Eventually people would say "You know, this music is a lot heavier than this and I think I like it better. I need to find more like it". After a while, they'd find more music like that, and ultimately they'd start calling it something. It just so happens that we call it metal.

[Pashmina]

Yeah, it's rock music.

Guitars etc.

But I agree it kinda does deserve somewhere to itself.

[charlesx]

I think that you can say that all Metal is a form of Rock, but that not all Rock is a form of Metal. Hence, Metal is a sub-category of Rock. It does not stand alone because of where its roots come from.

[JKLantern]

As I recall, Zep hated being referred to as a Heavy Metal band.

Genre is one of those tricky subjects. Back in the Fifties, people got into huge debates on whether Chuck Berry was "Blues" or "Rock." Since many of the early rock groups evolved from blues and jazz groups, the lines got blurred. Then you got musicians who experimented with different sounds, giving you metal, progressive, new wave, alternative, etc. Ultimately, the question is, does it REALLY matter that much?

[anonymous92]

I guess it doesn't really matter, but just seeing that metal is inside rock just makes me cringe.

Honestly, being associated with today's "rock" as people call it is insulting to a metal-head like me. Today's "rock" is so main-streamed for the consumer, it's not really rock anymore, but something else, something new, without the creativity and artistic drive bands should have.

Just sayin' :p

[turdburglar47]

That's TODAY'S "rock." It doesn't redefine Rock.

"Rock" still includes all the same awesome bands it always did. The fact that it also includes Creed doesn't matter.

[charlesdward]

"Rock" and "Metal" are really too all-inclusive as categories to even be of any worth, really.
Ok, as an example... within the last couple of days, I've listened to the following bands off the top of my head (keeping within *cringe* the metal genre, as I actually listen to all sorts of completely unrelated stuff): Strapping Young Lad, Chimaira, Death Angel, Motley Crue, Pantera, Prong, Slayer, Mercyful Fate, Budgie, Anthrax, Iron Maiden, Diamond Head... that's about all I can come up with without hurting my delicate grey matter.
Now... as much as I enjoy all these "metal" bands, I hate with a passion Def Leppard and other fluff bands that also are considered metal.
Other bands that I do enjoy, that are considered _____ metal (the blank is sub-genre like "nu-" or "alternative-", etc. are Primus, Faith No More, and stuff that I would consider more rock than metal.

Want a nice chuckle? Check out what, according to wikipedia, are considered metal bands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heavy_metal_bands


Please... Cream? Great band, but metal? Queen? The Stooges? Blue Oyster Cult?
Don't get me wrong, I love all of those mentioned - a lot - but Alice Cooper, for instance, wasn't anything metal-like until the 80's, by which point his career was more or less in the toilet anyways and he needed to follow trends rather than create them.

My point to all this is to illustrate how fundamentally worthless genres really are...
I listen to Metal. These words alone mean nothing.
Not all the "metal" I listen to is metal.
Not all I listen to is metal.
I do not listen to all metal.

This is why I don't think of music in terms of genres and categories, but rather in terms of individual bands and artists, and even then, their particular eras of development. Alice Cooper then bears no resemblance to Alice Cooper now.

[Pashmina]

It's not different enough as a genre to not be lumped in with rock.

[spacedye]

It's not different enough as a genre to not be lumped in with rock.


I hugely disagree. Metal is as far removed from Rock as Country is, and that has it's own board.

[Pashmina]

I hugely disagree. Metal is as far removed from Rock as Country is, and that has it's own board.


What artists would you use to describe each genre? If I had a clearer picture, I might understand.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

"Rock" and "Metal" are really too all-inclusive as categories to even be of any worth, really.
Ok, as an example... within the last couple of days, I've listened to the following bands off the top of my head (keeping within *cringe* the metal genre, as I actually listen to all sorts of completely unrelated stuff): Strapping Young Lad, Chimaira, Death Angel, Motley Crue, Pantera, Prong, Slayer, Mercyful Fate, Budgie, Anthrax, Iron Maiden, Diamond Head... that's about all I can come up with without hurting my delicate grey matter.
Now... as much as I enjoy all these "metal" bands, I hate with a passion Def Leppard and other fluff bands that also are considered metal.
Other bands that I do enjoy, that are considered _____ metal (the blank is sub-genre like "nu-" or "alternative-", etc. are Primus, Faith No More, and stuff that I would consider more rock than metal.

Want a nice chuckle? Check out what, according to wikipedia, are considered metal bands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heavy_metal_bands


Please... Cream? Great band, but metal? Queen? The Stooges? Blue Oyster Cult?
Don't get me wrong, I love all of those mentioned - a lot - but Alice Cooper, for instance, wasn't anything metal-like until the 80's, by which point his career was more or less in the toilet anyways and he needed to follow trends rather than create them.

My point to all this is to illustrate how fundamentally worthless genres really are...
I listen to Metal. These words alone mean nothing.
Not all the "metal" I listen to is metal.
Not all I listen to is metal.
I do not listen to all metal.

This is why I don't think of music in terms of genres and categories, but rather in terms of individual bands and artists, and even then, their particular eras of development. Alice Cooper then bears no resemblance to Alice Cooper now.

Those bands you listed were called Metal before the 80's. That's what Metal was, that's metal's roots.

It's like saying Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly aren't Rock and Roll, but "Rockabilly." Back then, that's what Rock and Roll was.

[spacedye]

What artists would you use to describe each genre? If I had a clearer picture, I might understand.


Well, it changes with time and sub-genre. For example, I'd say that Led Zeppelin are the epitome of classic rock. However, modern rock sounds different. A lot of it is tinged with metal, or alternative sounds. It is hard for me to pick out a specific modern rock band that exemplifies the genre as it is today, as it hardly exists in it's purist form. It could even be argued that it never has.

Metal varies greatly too, from sub-genre to sub-genre. Doom metal and Death metal sound vastly different, but can be pulled into the same genre by the heaviness of the sound. Metal is often bassy, and uses deep sounding riffs and tones. Here are a few examples of metal:

Death Metal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfgcbtg7Lw8&mode=related&search=) - Cannibal Corpse

Death metal has two distinct types. Melodic and Brutal. Cannibal Corpse leans more towards the brutal style. They have growling vocals, generally violent/disturbing lyrics and a harsh abrasive sound.

Power Metal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A6KAB1o1q4) - Rhapsody of Fire.

Power metal is fast, energetic and is often characterized by it's fantasy (elves, dragons and all that) lyrics. Rhapsody of Fire (formerly just Rhapsody) is a paragon band of the genre.

Doom Metal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yntdJ1kDI4) - Black Sabbath

Doom metal is just what the name implies. It's full of doom, sorrow and is drudgingly slow and ominous. The song above, Black Sabbath is arguably the first metal song, and thus the first doom metal song as well. It picks up at the end, but the majority of the song is 100% Doom.

[Pashmina]

Ok.

That Cannibal Corpse link actually made me laugh, when he started bellowing. The song had very little noticeable structure, and his vocals are probably the least appealing sound I've ever heard.

Rhapsody is at least a bit more entertaining, and actually shows skill. It's funny. Like could be a Legend of Zelda game.

Black Sabbath I'm like indifferent to.

The differences are there, but it's more between band(s). All 2 are obviously metal.

[charlesdward]

Those bands you listed were called Metal before the 80's. That's what Metal was, that's metal's roots.

It's like saying Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly aren't Rock and Roll, but "Rockabilly." Back then, that's what Rock and Roll was.

That's kind of my point though... they didn't consider themselves metal bands at the time, just bands. The whole labelling/genre thing is more just a marketing thing to more specifically target certain audiences.
Sabbath never set out to be a metal band, they just were basically a blues band (like pretty much every other British band of the era) with their own style. Their subject matter just happened to be more gloomy due to their love of horror movies and such.
Eventually, because metal started to actually become a "style" they gradually conformed (albeit unconsciously) to expectations of what they were supposed to sound like as a metal band.

But my whole thing against the whole genre thing (besides the subjectivity of it all - what's metal to one person is just classic rock to another), is the tendency to limit oneself to certain genres. I know people who can't handle anything other than 70's classic rock like Zep, AC/DC, and similar stuff.
Similarly, I know people who listen to what they consider metal, and become almost visibly ill at having to listen to, say, Chicago blues.

My own tastes range from Classical/Baroque to 1930's Delta Blues to Jazz to 70's Brit rock (Sabbath, Deep Purple, Rainbow) to early punk (Stooges, Pistols) to country (Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings) to funk to metal to techno/industrial and stuff that doesn't even remotely fall into any comfortable category (whatever Tom Waits and Frank Zappa and Primus are).

So you see, when somebody asks "what sort of music do you like?", I get that old, familiar head pain... :tired:

[StormX]

Does it really matter how people classify a style of music you like?

Does that classification somehow change the music or lessen your appreciation of it?


Or am I just misunderstanding things and this is just a generic "slow internet day" question that came up because there was nothing else to complain about? :p

[Pashmina]

That's kind of my point though... they didn't consider themselves metal bands at the time, just bands. The whole labelling/genre thing is more just a marketing thing to more specifically target certain audiences.
Sabbath never set out to be a metal band, they just were basically a blues band (like pretty much every other British band of the era) with their own style. Their subject matter just happened to be more gloomy due to their love of horror movies and such.
Eventually, because metal started to actually become a "style" they gradually conformed (albeit unconsciously) to expectations of what they were supposed to sound like as a metal band.

But my whole thing against the whole genre thing (besides the subjectivity of it all - what's metal to one person is just classic rock to another), is the tendency to limit oneself to certain genres. I know people who can't handle anything other than 70's classic rock like Zep, AC/DC, and similar stuff.
Similarly, I know people who listen to what they consider metal, and become almost visibly ill at having to listen to, say, Chicago blues.

My own tastes range from Classical/Baroque to 1930's Delta Blues to Jazz to 70's Brit rock (Sabbath, Deep Purple, Rainbow) to early punk (Stooges, Pistols) to country (Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings) to funk to metal to techno/industrial and stuff that doesn't even remotely fall into any comfortable category (whatever Tom Waits and Frank Zappa and Primus are).

So you see, when somebody asks "what sort of music do you like?", I get that old, familiar head pain... :tired:

Aren't Primus rock? Like heavy guitars and such? Or are they metal??! :laugh: :confused:

I think the people that truly defy genres are people like Bjork. Like changing her style every day. Some of her early stuff was very dance/club oreintated, and noiw shes like doing all tribal stuff, after dabbling in electronica and microbeats.

Basically the genre that's referred to as Alternative.

Anyway, that's going off-topic.

I still think it's a sub-genre of rock music, but it's so big it might as well have it's own board.

[CarlosMucha]

Metal is music?? :cheeky:

[Amora's_best_friend]

Metal would be so much better if half the bands didn't have an obsession with demons and fantasy.

It just makes it seem so lame when they wear skulls and stuff. I prefer groups that do music without being cliche.

[CarlosMucha]

Metal would be so much better if half the bands didn't have an obsession with demons and fantasy.

It just makes it seem so lame when they wear skulls and stuff. I prefer groups that do music without being cliche.


is lame now. it was cool back when nobody was using the word "cool" yet.

[AZS]

Metal is rock to a point, just like pop is, or punk. Every genre can ultimately be traced back to another, but that doesn't make them sub-genres. Metal has long since split into it's own, and it deserves it's own full-fledged forum among the others. If it doesn't work or lacks distinct activity over a long period of time, sure, downsize, but right now I think it can succeed.I set up the sub-forum because Dark Flash2099 complained that it needed it's own discussion area in the Rock forum.
Now you come along and tell us its not Rock.
What's next? Poison shouldn't be in the same place as Metalica? Oooh, how dare you put Queensriche with Screaming Death Flak Death Metal Death Devil Death Death!

Frankly I don't care. You can argue it out with Dark Flash2099 and when the two of you come to a consensus, come back and tell me.
Until then the rest of the reasonable population are content to have Metal as a sub-forum of Rock and not get our undies in a bunch over it.

As this PopForum area starts to get more traffic, I will not put up with a hundred threads complaining that every genre needs it's own little corner so 5 people can discuss the finer points of some sub-sub-sub genre they think is the most important thing in the world.

This area is a work in progress. We'll be monitoring the boards to see how discussions work themselves out. If it turns out that organically something should be split off, we will do so.
If some whiney poster comes along and complains how ABBA or Green Day or orchestral-neo-prog-rock-death-metal should get their own forum because they're so important, I'm absolutely going to ignore you.

[Dark Flash2099]

Aren't Primus rock? Like heavy guitars and such? Or are they metal??! :laugh: :confused:

I think the people that truly defy genres are people like Bjork. Like changing her style every day. Some of her early stuff was very dance/club oreintated, and noiw shes like doing all tribal stuff, after dabbling in electronica and microbeats.

Basically the genre that's referred to as Alternative.

Anyway, that's going off-topic.

I still think it's a sub-genre of rock music, but it's so big it might as well have it's own board.

Primus are their own genre. Seriously, what they do is outside of what any genres that are there, they're allowed to just do their own thing.

[spacedye]

I set up the sub-forum because Dark Flash2099 complained that it needed it's own discussion area in the Rock forum.
Now you come along and tell us its not Rock.
What's next? Poison shouldn't be in the same place as Metalica? Oooh, how dare you put Queensriche with Screaming Death Flak Death Metal Death Devil Death Death!

Frankly I don't care. You can argue it out with Dark Flash2099 and when the two of you come to a consensus, come back and tell me.
Until then the rest of the reasonable population are content to have Metal as a sub-forum of Rock and not get our undies in a bunch over it.

As this PopForum area starts to get more traffic, I will not put up with a hundred threads complaining that every genre needs it's own little corner so 5 people can discuss the finer points of some sub-sub-sub genre they think is the most important thing in the world.

This area is a work in progress. We'll be monitoring the boards to see how discussions work themselves out. If it turns out that organically something should be split off, we will do so.
If some whiney poster comes along and complains how ABBA or Green Day or orchestral-neo-prog-rock-death-metal should get their own forum because they're so important, I'm absolutely going to ignore you.


I can't help but feel like this is a personal attack against me. There's no need to be rude or sarcastic here. I made this thread because metal was it's own forum. It was out there in the open, and then it disappeared to hide behind Rock, and thus I was confused. I'm not saying that every single genre needs it's own separate forum, I'm saying Metal does. I'm trying to be constructive here.

I understand that throwing up a thousand sub-forums under Music will do nothing but hurt it. Just look at Hip-Hop and Country right now. They're wastelands compared to the rest of the forums, which span about 30 posts combined, and that makes the entire area seem inactive. My point, however, is that if you're going to break down music into categories in the first place, Metal should be a part of that. Metal, on a general basis, is not obscure. Some metal is obscure, sure. You help point something out, actually. I shall quote:

Poison shouldn't be in the same place as Metalica? Oooh, how dare you put Queensriche with Screaming Death Flak Death Metal Death Devil Death Death!

I think it's safe to say that you don't like death metal. That's fair. It's not accessible, and it is an acquired taste. The vocals turn many people off, but that's why it should be discussed on a Metal board, and not a Rock board. And clearly, we have such a place. It's just hidden, and you seem miffed even by that (stating that DarkFlash complained until it was made).

My main concern here is that people might see a music forum and wish to come discuss metal. They won't go looking into the Rock board for it because, like me, they may feel that it isn't part of Rock, and not post at all. Or post in the general area where something like Cannibal Corpse or Nile will get trashed for being garbage.

Also, I don't recall DarkFlash saying that Metal needed a board as a sub-forum under Rock. I could be wrong, but I just remember him saying that Metal needed a board period.

[Dark Flash2099]

Also, I don't recall DarkFlash saying that Metal needed a board as a sub-forum under Rock. I could be wrong, but I just remember him saying that Metal needed a board period.
My exact words from the thread that I made are as follows:

Seriously, metal is it's own genre. And considering it part of "rock" is a slap in the face to all metalheads.

[m_a_caque]

so are metallica, ac/dc, and ozzy now just rock? or are they still metal?

and where do the red hot chili peppers fall?

[AZS]

so are metallica, ac/dc, and ozzy now just rock? or are they still metal?

and where do the red hot chili peppers fall?Dude! Metallica is Metallica! They SO deserve their own forum!

And not under 'Rock' dammit! That's an insult!

[hail_eris]

Dude! Metallica is Metallica! They SO deserve their own forum!

And not under 'Rock' dammit! That's an insult!
Obviously. Metallica's forum should be under "former metal gods who've descended into unintentional self-parody." They can share it with Van Halen.

[StormX]

My main concern here is that people might see a music forum and wish to come discuss metal. They won't go looking into the Rock board for it because, like me, they may feel that it isn't part of Rock, and not post at all. Or post in the general area where something like Cannibal Corpse or Nile will get trashed for being garbage.


Uhh...how are they going to miss it? You click the music forum and it shows Rock with the sub-forum of "Metal".

You can just directly click the sub-forum link from the main music forum. It's not even an extra click to get to it.

For the love of God man, you're simply arguing for a larger font size. :p

[JKLantern]

Obviously. Metallica's forum should be under "former metal gods who've descended into unintentional self-parody." They can share it with Van Halen.

It's not Eddie's fault he lost his mind somewhere along the way.

[m_a_caque]

Dude! Metallica is Metallica! They SO deserve their own forum!

And not under 'Rock' dammit! That's an insult!


i won't argue. i was lucky enough to meet jaymz, kirk and jason backstage at baltimore in 2000.

[DisturbedChild]

The only true Metal is anything done by Zakk Wylde :p

[MatT-COBHC]

I listen to probably 95% Metal, and while I agree it started and still could be considered a genre of Rock...it is so big with so many sub-genres itself it does need to be it's own entity. I mean, compare a straight up Death Metal band like Dying Fetus with a Power Metal band like Hammerfall...calling them the same thing almost makes no sense! But there is so much it gets confusing...Death Metal, Black Metal, Power Metal, Melodic Death Metal, Symphonic Metal, Metalcore, Thrash Metal...any Metalhead could go into detail explaining the differences of all these and some people like only some of them, but it's all considered Metal...definitley the most diverse genre of music!

[StormX]

definitley the most diverse genre of music!

No, I do believe that would be techno.