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ol_Dut
01/17/2008, 16:23
ol_Dut's LE Review: Incredible Hulk
by Justin Dekker

http://www.hcrealms.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Frankenstein_monster_Boris_Karloff.jpg
Daddy?

Sure, he may look like Frankenstein’s Monster, but make no mistake about it he’s the Incredible Hulk. Made to commemorate the Hulk as he initially appeared in comics, this monochrome mauler is the third tournament LE incarnation of the Hulk but he’s the first to proclaim himself to be “Incredible”. Is he really “Incredible” or is it just a bunch of puffed up posturing? Click on “Read More” to find out!

ol_Dut
01/17/2008, 16:35
Here’s the dial for regular old, ho-hum, plain Jane Rookie Hulk.

#017 R Hulk
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 143
Keywords: Monster, Scientist
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6715178173781738918481019471118371117361016369163KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


And here is the dial for his ashen majesty.

#102 R Incredible Hulk
Team: Avengers
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 113
Keywords: Avengers, Brute
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7917379173810183811174810174810173791737816368163KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Speed - Speed of Charging Dreadnaught: Incredible Hulk can use the move and attack ability.

http://www.hcrealms.com/units/mu102.jpg
Fire bad!

LE Incredible Hulk’s Gains vs. Rookie Hulk
For a tidy 30 points less than Rookie Hulk, Mr. Incredible picks up the Avengers team ability, drops that pesky activation click and gains a special power entitled “Speed of a Charging Dreadnaught” on his first four clicks. “Dreadnaught” provides Mr. Incredible with the Move and Attack power made famous by Transporters everywhere, meaning he can do a drive-by attack but does so at a -2 to his attack rolls. For theme team players, Mr. I fills a different role than the Rookie as he is now an “Avenger” and a “Brute”. The LE gets a bit of help in the damage department, adding two more clicks of Close Combat Expert to the top of his dial which will help him out tremendously when he gets tired of flitting about the board and just wants to stand still and pound someone silly without the need for objects. Our gamma-saturated grey gladiator also picks up two other minor enhancements: one additional click of nine (9) attack and one click of Toughness. The fact that he gets all of this stuff while costing 30 points less than Rookie Karloff only deepens the mysterious, confounding conundrum that is the point formula. Perhaps Nick Cage and the gang can grab some ancient parchment and a torch and go questing for that in the inevitable National Treasure 3 so that we can all be enlightened. There's some stuff I just have to know.

LE Incredible Hulk’s Losses vs. Rookie Hulk
There are a couple of noticeable no-shows on Mr. Incredible’s dial. Flurry, Leap/Climb and Perpelx, the powers that make Rookie Karloff so fun to play are conspicuously absent. The “Monster” and “Scientist” keywords have also been replaced as outlined above. Numerically, Incredible only suffers a few downgrades, dropping one click of 11 attack and one of 19 Invulnerable defense.


Neutral Dial Tinkering
Karloff has eight attacks at the top of the dial, ramps up in traditional Hulk fashion and then slightly trails off on his last two clicks. Mr. Incredible starts with nine (9) attacks, peaks with an 11 on click four and then his attack diminishes over the next five clicks. His eight (8) attacks end up on clicks eight and nine. After his activation click, Karloff follows the standard Hulk damage reducer progression as well, opening with Toughness and then jumps into Invulnerable and stays there for the duration of his dial. Mr. Incredible has a Toughness sandwich with five tangy clicks of Invulnerable filling. Mmm, zesty!

Cards that Work
With plenty of “Avengers” and “Brutes” out there, the new brokenness of Warbound would be an outstanding way to keep Mr. Incredible swinging away in an unrelenting assault on the opposition. And to really keep the beatings rolling, Hold the Line can give him an extra attack against a second adjacent enemy at a -2 to his attack roll. Not bad for a minimum investment of 16 points. The Shrunk battlefield condition aids this grounded brick to a great extent by turning giants into standard sized figures and reducing attack ranges by 50%.

If ol_Dut Had to Choose
I’ve always subscribed to the theory that any good Hulk should dare a player to attack him. Hit him once and he just gets better. Hit him again and he gets even better. The best Hulks not only start off with decent values, but they should peak late and simply beg to be pushed mercilessly. Mr. Incredible peaks very early on his fourth click and from there it’s all downhill on his last five clicks. The “Dreadnaught” special power holds as much promise as the ever-popular Nigerian Money Scam. Being able to move around and attack at will sounds great until you realize that for half of the clicks where he has the power he’s got a modified seven (7) attack value. On his last click of “Dreadnaught” he’ll have a nine (9) attack with that power, but in all likelihood he’ll already be based and will want to use his natural 11 attack instead. Further, considering how early he peaks, pushing isn’t the soundest of strategies. A push or two followed by a respectable hit is going to spin him past his best clicks without much trouble, and then those eight (8) attack clicks are all too near, and those shameful orange clicks of Toughness come along with them.

Rookie Hulk looks a lot like many of the Hulks that came before him. He’s got a dreaded activation click, but with that dab of Perplex, it’s actually a useful click. Once he’s off that, his powers ramp up slowly and peak just past mid-dial. This makes the Hulk pushable and at the same time should serve as a deterrent to attacks for fear of putting Hulk that much closer to his most punishing clicks. Once he gets Invulnerable, he keeps it, making him harder to KO than Mr. Incredible in his late-dial. While he doesn’t have an upfront move and attack ability, he does have Flurry which makes him an attractive clean-up hitter. And, once he gets Charge, he can walk the pain around without the -2 that comes with the “Dreadnaught” power. Charge initially shows up in conjunction with his best damage values and his best defensive values enabling him to really dish it out with a relative degree of safety from retaliation. When it arrives the second time, it’s on his final clicks where he again has nine (9) and 10 attacks, Perplex, Super Strength and three (3) damage. Stuck in the middle of all of this Charge are some of his best clicks with 11 attacks, high defenses and Leap/Climb to get him wherever he wants to go. In short, once the Hulk get’s past his two power-up clicks, he gets scary and he stays scary.

Mr. Incredible pins his hopes and his reason for existence on the “Dreadnaught” special power. But just as I refrained from wiring money to Nigeria to help out a businessman/ambassador/royal with the promise of receiving millions of dollars, I’m not buying in to this deal either. Special powers that come with built-in minuses just aren’t that special. As Dr. Who would say, “Never trust gimmicky gadgets.”, and this one is pretty gimmicky indeed. Special power aside, Mr. Incredible peaks prematurely and spends the majority of his dial deflating into deeper levels of shame and uselessness. Too bad there isn’t a pill for that. In spite of everything, I’ll still call him Mr. Incredible if for no other reason than it sounds so much better than Mr. Couldabeen. That’s why Rookie Hulk, as traditional and unimaginative as his dial may be, is going to be my choice every single time. For more entertainment, the Rookie Hulk can be equipped with the same couple of feats described above so that he can pound away and never stop.

Quick and Dirty Price Tag
There isn’t much data out there right now and what prices there are seem to be afflicted with elephantitis. The $30 to 50 dollar price range simply isn’t appropriate for this figure. I’ve seen the LE Incredible Hulk and he’s no LE Bruce Banner. As Mutant Mayhem showed us, all Hulk LEs are not created equal. He’s no more or less rare than any LE since the switch to awarding first place and fellowship the same prize. Given that, he should be widely available for $15 or less once people have a chance to win one and sell him. Do not buy Mr. Incredible for Bruce Banner prices. Seek medical attention immediately if you are seriously considering spending over $30 on this figure. Side effects of doing so may include having the word “Sucker” printed on your forehead with a black Sharpie, offers to sell you bridges in Brooklyn and London, and then there’s that swarm of Nigerians who will offer to turn your modest investment into millions overnight.

Thanks for reading. Next week there will be more M&M fun. See you then!

malakim2099
01/17/2008, 16:43
I think you're underestimating the LE version here.

For 0 points, you can give him Alpha Flight, which boosts that attack value by +1 against a specific character or team symbol. Plus Avengers is a flexible enough keyword that a lot of support (more than the regular Hulk) can be fit around him.

EDIT: Lot of support in that he's 30 points cheaper than the regular version. Realized that was a touch unclear.

bigkahuna83
01/17/2008, 16:45
great work as always. this one really makes you wonder about the point formula

Zemo13
01/17/2008, 17:02
I would have preferred some good old-fashioned Charge to the move and attack special power.

dexmark
01/17/2008, 17:02
Guys..

If you want to tinker on the Hulk a bit then use his Avenger Team Ability for Thunderbolt feat from there make him Sinister Syndicate or Anti-Batman. Build a team where you have Vet Iron Fist in your line up. Start pounding for 12AV or 12-2 = 10AV with the charging Dreadnought.

Puuka
01/17/2008, 17:14
I think you're underestimating the LE version here.

For 0 points, you can give him Alpha Flight, which boosts that attack value by +1 against a specific character or team symbol. Plus Avengers is a flexible enough keyword that a lot of support (more than the regular Hulk) can be fit around him.

EDIT: Lot of support in that he's 30 points cheaper than the regular version. Realized that was a touch unclear.

He's going to love R Katana. For 37 points, you can get rid of that pasky -2 (Using the Outsiders TA), and you have a nice little back up attacker as well.

freakazoid_x
01/17/2008, 17:24
Yeah you've neglected to mention that the normal R Hulk is a waste at over 140 points. He doesn't pull his weight for almost half of his floor team influence while Incredible Hulk costs much less and pulls his weight a lot better then the R Hulk. I'd never pay 140 points for a terrible dial like that under any circumstances but I might consider 113 for Incredible Hulk.

hobgoblin22
01/17/2008, 17:32
Nice review, but I agree with Big Kahuna on this one. I think you are getting a much better value for that 30 points less. Mr. Incredible actually has a a deeper dial because of no activation click for 30 points less. I also believe that if you play the Incredible Hulk on your team and plan to utilize his special power, you must prepare accordingly. That 30 points plus the Avengers team ability offers the means to boost his initial attack. Maybe I am bias because this is a very unique Hulk piece. I like versions of characters that offer aspects not seen before, like the dreadnought power. Still a very well written review.

Phantom
01/17/2008, 17:40
Not to mention that his Transporter move-attack could also double as a 7-square Charge. Offset that -2 through any number of ways for that initial movement, and on the next turn, your opponent has a 9AV, 5 damage monster right in their face.

And at 113 points, you could put in quality backup that your opponent won't be as tempted to ignore.

lastcastle
01/17/2008, 17:42
probably would have been a better comparison to the rampaging hulk le. still if I want to use a hulk on avengers keyword team, he is probably the one to use. can also try comm breakdown and specify attack values to keep his attack totals from being reduced.

Shellhead's Pal
01/17/2008, 17:47
I too greatly favor the Incredible Hulk over the Rookie. I guess it all depends on how you play. I usually use cheaper figures, and the Incredible Hulk just has all kinds of threat potential. Sure, a 7 attack isn't all that great, but it all depends on who you're trying to hit with it.

Plus, how cool is it to picture the monster cruising around the battlefield? Even if he is whiffing on his opponents...

Ghost-x
01/17/2008, 18:32
I agree with ol Dut here.

Even though the R Hulk has an activation click, it does come with perplex which is a great power and anyone that plays regularly should recognize this.

Also, just the fact that you HAVE to specifically build to make the LE Hulk "work" testifies to his lack of worth.

Also, you LE Hulk fanboys are seemingly neglecting the lack of flurry and charge that is lost on the LE but makes the R Hulk much more of a threat early on instead of sliding by whiffing everything with that pitiful attack. Unless you run a R Katana (LOL, which will add SOOO much more to your awesome team).

Spot on 'Dut, and good job on the review.

domino33
01/17/2008, 18:41
He's going to love R Katana. For 37 points, you can get rid of that pasky -2 (Using the Outsiders TA), and you have a nice little back up attacker as well.

Nice call on the Outsiders TA! I completely overlooked that it could be used on friendly figs! The downside is that Outsiders would nerf his Super Strength, but 3 damage is still decent for Hulk as a shot to soften up the foe.

I too would choose this Hulk over his 143 point brother. AT 113 points he doesn't have to carry a team--which the 143 Hulk has a hard time with.

domino33
01/17/2008, 18:53
Also, you LE Hulk fanboys are seemingly neglecting the lack of flurry and charge that is lost on the LE but makes the R Hulk much more of a threat early on instead of sliding by whiffing everything with that pitiful attack. Unless you run a R Katana (LOL, which will add SOOO much more to your awesome team).

R Katana is a surprisingly useful 37 points. I have never regretted including her on a team and Alpha Flight is a no-brainer for any Avenger.

As for the loss of Flurry, you have to give up something in a 30 point differential and the way Charge usually works is that you charge in (hit/miss) and then you are stuck until you KO your target. The M/A power gives you the option to move, whack someone on the way, and then settle in where you want to. It's much more flexible. The 143 point Hulk's Perplex is fine, but you are only going to get to use it to attack on one turn with a careful opponent.

malakim2099
01/17/2008, 19:36
Also, you LE Hulk fanboys are seemingly neglecting the lack of flurry and charge that is lost on the LE but makes the R Hulk much more of a threat early on instead of sliding by whiffing everything with that pitiful attack. Unless you run a R Katana (LOL, which will add SOOO much more to your awesome team).

You can almost afford a SR Scarlet Witch for the price difference between the LE and the Rookie. And you definitely could afford, say, a Destiny and a Con-Artist, if you're going Unrestricted.

I think there's a difference between a Fanboy and "hey, this is 30 points less with a useful TA and more move/attack clicks, I'll take it." :p

AUKOS
01/17/2008, 19:38
personally, for the le, i would play communication breakdown, negating the -2 and give him the respectable 9 to 11 move attack ability!


AUKOS


edit: great review as always.

ol_Dut
01/17/2008, 19:44
Also, just the fact that you HAVE to specifically build to make the LE Hulk "work" testifies to his lack of worth.



See this the kicker for me. I like to play a lot of different types of figures, even those that many would consider to be sub-par. However, whenever you need to do a bunck of crazy things to make a figure work, that's a testament to the fact that it's not that great as it stands. If you need a TA to make him work, that can be countered. If you need a BFC or a feat card to make him work, those can be countered also. Figures who are good enough right out of the box? Those have to be dealt with the old fashioned way.

antedoX
01/17/2008, 19:52
See this the kicker for me. I like to play a lot of different types of figures, even those that many would consider to be sub-par. However, whenever you need to do a bunck of crazy things to make a figure work, that's a testament to the fact that it's not that great as it stands. If you need a TA to make him work, that can be countered. If you need a BFC or a feat card to make him work, those can be countered also. Figures who are good enough right out of the box? Those have to be dealt with the old fashioned way.


Although I too am an LE "fanboy," as it has been put, I agree with this statement 100%.

What I like about the LE is the streamlined dial. I would do little more than to slap Alpha Flight and Unstoppable on him and hand him the 3d Computer. Run straight into his heavy hitter with a decent 9 a/v for 5 damage and stay right there to push next round for 5 more with a better 10 a/v.

fecundity
01/17/2008, 19:55
He's going to love R Katana. For 37 points, you can get rid of that pasky -2 (Using the Outsiders TA), and you have a nice little back up attacker as well.

Except that Outsiders won't counteract the -2 for the Move and Attack ability. It only stops modifiers from Powers and Team Abilities.

Note that this has been ruled clearly for Transporters. You might try and squirm because Hulk gets Move and Attack from a Power, but I'm not buying it. The Power gives him the Move and Attack ability. The ability modifies his Attack by -2.

fecundity
01/17/2008, 19:56
I would do little more than to slap Alpha Flight and Unstoppable on him and hand him the 3d Computer.

Yes. The computer would do nicely.

Or the fuel tank, which he can use on a terrain feature and hit adjacent figures automatically.

Ghost-x
01/17/2008, 20:01
Except that Outsiders won't counteract the -2 for the Move and Attack ability. It only stops modifiers from Powers and Team Abilities.

Note that this has been ruled clearly for Transporters. You might try and squirm because Hulk gets Move and Attack from a Power, but I'm not buying it. The Power gives him the Move and Attack ability. The ability modifies his Attack by -2.


Interesting. I have missed this clarification. If this is the case, then for certain, I believe the R Hulk better in comparison.

Now to go see if you are indeed correct.

hero_temp
01/17/2008, 20:57
I think you're underestimating the LE version here.

For 0 points, you can give him Alpha Flight, which boosts that attack value by +1 against a specific character or team symbol. Plus Avengers is a flexible enough keyword that a lot of support (more than the regular Hulk) can be fit around him.

EDIT: Lot of support in that he's 30 points cheaper than the regular version. Realized that was a touch unclear.

Field both, use rookies perplex to increase bonus with alphaflight to +2, Drivebuy at nine attack, and tying up opponant , push other hulk up off activation click, and attach with both

Ok, there a way better plans out there, but hey, I'm in the mood to field all hulk all smash all time

Repulsor rage
01/17/2008, 23:26
Nice thorough review but as others have disagreed I really like the le. Slap TB to MOE+Shellhead with a 3-d com and your golden well grey with a 128 monster. Would be wrong to rip off his bleh sculpt and throw on a IC one?

Valken
01/17/2008, 23:51
my original thought was to use back alley brawl with this hulk to offset the -2 then i clicked(no pun intended) his move and attack is a special power so no bonus.
Glad i didn't wait till the middle of a game to realise that :nervous:

Great review ol_Dut

Valentyne
01/17/2008, 23:59
Please, correct if I'm wrong but the Outsiders TA cannot be copied, right? So T-Bolting would have no effect. Or is it different than Wild Carding? Power Cosmic can't be copied and I don't believe you can T-Bolt to that.

Otherwise, great review 'Dut! My choice would also be 143 Rook, though there are better choices for 143 points worth out there.

antedoX
01/18/2008, 01:25
Please, correct if I'm wrong but the Outsiders TA cannot be copied, right? So T-Bolting would have no effect. Or is it different than Wild Carding? Power Cosmic can't be copied and I don't believe you can T-Bolt to that.

Otherwise, great review 'Dut! My choice would also be 143 Rook, though there are better choices for 143 points worth out there.


Correct, you cannot Thunderbolt to Outsiders, although considering the above posts that may be a moot point anyway.

phantalien
01/18/2008, 02:29
I dig the R Hulk a lot better over the LE. I guess if I were to play him I would use him as an expensive perplexer until my opponent decides to smack hulk on one of his better clicks, or he runs towards a phone booth for a quick change to a meaner hulk. I just wish I had a reason to play either of them.

Great article!

zero_cochrane
01/18/2008, 02:57
A. Communication Breakdown.

Lonehawk
01/18/2008, 04:04
I agree with ol Dut here.

Even though the R Hulk has an activation click, it does come with perplex which is a great power and anyone that plays regularly should recognize this.



Trouble is you are going to have this perplex for the first two rounds of the game only unless you intend to keep Hulk back on his activation click. Unless you are pushing to attack it won't be a lot of use.

The late dial perplex on the other hand is useful and with invulnerabilty there on the last 5 clicks there is a good chance you may land there.

Personally I like both figs and I think they work well in different environments - R Hulk is superb in 500pt+ games where he has time to hulk-up and the late dial power can hit home while in smaller 300pt front loaded games its hard to ignore the LE.

Biggest problem is though that as I'm busy moving house next week I can't get to any tournaments and so I won't be seeing the LE anytime soon. :(

SLVRSR4
01/18/2008, 04:28
Except that Outsiders won't counteract the -2 for the Move and Attack ability. It only stops modifiers from Powers and Team Abilities.

Note that this has been ruled clearly for Transporters. You might try and squirm because Hulk gets Move and Attack from a Power, but I'm not buying it. The Power gives him the Move and Attack ability. The ability modifies his Attack by -2.


I would STILL argue that he wouldn't be able to use the move and attack ability if it weren't for the power. Therefore, his -2 to attack comes from a power. With Transporters, it is just an inherent ability. It is an aspect of their Transporter ability. It's not a power. That is why you don't get to use Outsiders. I can almost guarantee you that this is how any judge would rule.

Foe Hunter
01/18/2008, 06:31
I prefer the rookie Hulk, yeah he costs a bit more but his dial seems to be better thought out and more well rounded. Its also nice to have a perplexer that people think twice about attacking. I liked the dial so much I actually stuck my old Fixit on there instead of the Frankenhulk sculpt. Dial seems to suit Fixit much better than his lack luster old dial anyway.

ilgoga
01/18/2008, 06:40
Would be wrong to rip off his bleh sculpt and throw on a IC one?

I was thinking the same thing, don't like Frankenstein Hulk.

badu777
01/18/2008, 08:49
I would STILL argue that he wouldn't be able to use the move and attack ability if it weren't for the power. Therefore, his -2 to attack comes from a power. With Transporters, it is just an inherent ability. It is an aspect of their Transporter ability. It's not a power. That is why you don't get to use Outsiders. I can almost guarantee you that this is how any judge would rule.
Right the card specifically says that Hulk can use the Move/attack ability he does not have it, the power is generating the -2 not the innate ability transporters have.

jackstar7
01/18/2008, 09:55
Alpha Flight plus an Avenger with Con Plan will negate the -2 more often than not, giving Incredible Hulk the chance to make mayhem.

Prof. Aragorn
01/18/2008, 10:40
Ahem:

Avengers team ability + move and attack ability = free attack!

Sure I'll take a 7 attack or Katana, at least I have 3 actions or more to take.

Throw in unstoppable and he destroys a wall or object for free (Hulk no like shield disrupter!) as a free move!

Though people are wondering why he costs less than Rookie Hulk - I dunno, take off all that perplex and those extra clicks of charge and flurry . . . all that four damage and that 19 . . . throw Invulnerable later on in the dial where it is likely to cost more and bam! 30 points extra . . .

webhead76
01/18/2008, 10:51
Since I have neither of these clix I think I'll play my Rampaging Hulk. I think we have to realize though, that the fact that the Incredible Hulk has the Avengers TA is the reason he's lower in points and proves why he is meant to be supported. If you had a larger point value for him, say 150 pts or more, it would negate the possibility of building a competitive Avengers team, especially with the 300 pt cap that most tournaments are. If your talking regular play, where the build is 400 pts or more then it would be prudent to field the rookie Hulk because you get more bang for your points, without the need for a lot of support. In a throw down match though, no holds barred, every clix character needs support of some kind, even Superman and the Incredible Hulk. But that's just my opinion!

fecundity
01/18/2008, 14:46
I would STILL argue that he wouldn't be able to use the move and attack ability if it weren't for the power. Therefore, his -2 to attack comes from a power. With Transporters, it is just an inherent ability.

Except that the precedents are against you.

Super Strength is a power that lets you pick up a 3D Desk. Pulsewave ignores powers, but it doesn't ignore the +2 from the Desk. Outsiders doesn't stop the +2 from the Desk.

Similarly, even though the Hulk has a power that lets him use the Move and Attack ability, it is the exact same Move and Attack ability that Transporters have.

I can almost guarantee you that this is how any judge would rule.

Sorry, but I am a judge. I would rule that Katana can't help out the Hulk in this way.

I might still be wrong, but there is at least one judge who doesn't agree with you. ; )

Zemo13
01/18/2008, 22:49
This might have been covered already, but if you T-Bolted Incredible Hulk to Sinister Syndicate, and had him move and attack to where he was adjacent to, for example, Lester, would he use Lester's 10 attack as normal, or would he use Lester's attack, minus 2?

6T9
01/19/2008, 01:22
Except that the precedents are against you.

Super Strength is a power that lets you pick up a 3D Desk. Pulsewave ignores powers, but it doesn't ignore the +2 from the Desk. Outsiders doesn't stop the +2 from the Desk.

Similarly, even though the Hulk has a power that lets him use the Move and Attack ability, it is the exact same Move and Attack ability that Transporters have.



Sorry, but I am a judge. I would rule that Katana can't help out the Hulk in this way.

I might still be wrong, but there is at least one judge who doesn't agree with you. ; )


I gotta disagree with you on this one:

Pulsewave "ignores" powers and team abilities. You are aware that you still get the +1 hindering modifier when getting pulsewaved (i would hope so, being that you are a "judge" and all). This is also why you still get the +2 defense modifier when carring a desk. Now, the Outsiders T.A. prevents combat values from being modified due to powers and team abilities...period. See...there is a clear difference in the why these two work.

Now, the transpoerter M&A ability that the le Hulk has is granted through a power..."bare in mind it is still a power".

What you seem to be saying is that the power grants the ability. This is not the case, otherwise powers like "webbing" would grant incapacitate and thus be able to use stunning blow on the power. We both know you can't do that, because the special power just lets you use the power (or ability) but you don't acutally have the specific power (or ability) on the dial.

I really hope you consider ruling otherwise, as a judge is suposed to be on par with the rules of the game. :rolleyes:

antedoX
01/19/2008, 01:29
What you seem to be saying is that the power grants the ability. This is not the case, otherwise powers like "webbing" would grant incapacitate and thus be able to use stunning blow on the power. We both know you can't do that, because the special power just lets you use the power (or ability) but you don't acutally have the specific power (or ability) on the dial.




I believe this would be the correct ruling. The negative modifier comes from a character trait that is generated by a power, whether or not that trait generally comes from a power or not is a moot point.

Imagine it as if they called the power something else, but just copied and pasted the text from the rules on the M&A ability.

6T9
01/19/2008, 01:48
Here’s the dial for regular old, ho-hum, plain Jane Rookie Hulk.

#017 R Hulk
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 143
Keywords: Monster, Scientist
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6715178173781738918481019471118371117361016369163KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


And here is the dial for his ashen majesty.

#102 R Incredible Hulk
Team: Avengers
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 113
Keywords: Avengers, Brute
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7917379173810183811174810174810173791737816368163KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Speed - Speed of Charging Dreadnaught: Incredible Hulk can use the move and attack ability.

http://www.hcrealms.com/units/mu102.jpg
Fire bad!

LE Incredible Hulk’s Gains vs. Rookie Hulk
For a tidy 30 points less than Rookie Hulk, Mr. Incredible picks up the Avengers team ability, drops that pesky activation click and gains a special power entitled “Speed of a Charging Dreadnaught” on his first four clicks. “Dreadnaught” provides Mr. Incredible with the Move and Attack power made famous by Transporters everywhere, meaning he can do a drive-by attack but does so at a -2 to his attack rolls. For theme team players, Mr. I fills a different role than the Rookie as he is now an “Avenger” and a “Brute”. The LE gets a bit of help in the damage department, adding two more clicks of Close Combat Expert to the top of his dial which will help him out tremendously when he gets tired of flitting about the board and just wants to stand still and pound someone silly without the need for objects. Our gamma-saturated grey gladiator also picks up two other minor enhancements: one additional click of nine (9) attack and one click of Toughness. The fact that he gets all of this stuff while costing 30 points less than Rookie Karloff only deepens the mysterious, confounding conundrum that is the point formula. Perhaps Nick Cage and the gang can grab some ancient parchment and a torch and go questing for that in the inevitable National Treasure 3 so that we can all be enlightened. There's some stuff I just have to know.

LE Incredible Hulk’s Losses vs. Rookie Hulk
There are a couple of noticeable no-shows on Mr. Incredible’s dial. Flurry, Leap/Climb and Perpelx, the powers that make Rookie Karloff so fun to play are conspicuously absent. The “Monster” and “Scientist” keywords have also been replaced as outlined above. Numerically, Incredible only suffers a few downgrades, dropping one click of 11 attack and one of 19 Invulnerable defense.


Neutral Dial Tinkering
Karloff has eight attacks at the top of the dial, ramps up in traditional Hulk fashion and then slightly trails off on his last two clicks. Mr. Incredible starts with nine (9) attacks, peaks with an 11 on click four and then his attack diminishes over the next five clicks. His eight (8) attacks end up on clicks eight and nine. After his activation click, Karloff follows the standard Hulk damage reducer progression as well, opening with Toughness and then jumps into Invulnerable and stays there for the duration of his dial. Mr. Incredible has a Toughness sandwich with five tangy clicks of Invulnerable filling. Mmm, zesty!

Cards that Work
With plenty of “Avengers” and “Brutes” out there, the new brokenness of Warbound would be an outstanding way to keep Mr. Incredible swinging away in an unrelenting assault on the opposition. And to really keep the beatings rolling, Hold the Line can give him an extra attack against a second adjacent enemy at a -2 to his attack roll. Not bad for a minimum investment of 16 points. The Shrunk battlefield condition aids this grounded brick to a great extent by turning giants into standard sized figures and reducing attack ranges by 50%.

If ol_Dut Had to Choose
I’ve always subscribed to the theory that any good Hulk should dare a player to attack him. Hit him once and he just gets better. Hit him again and he gets even better. The best Hulks not only start off with decent values, but they should peak late and simply beg to be pushed mercilessly. Mr. Incredible peaks very early on his fourth click and from there it’s all downhill on his last five clicks. The “Dreadnaught” special power holds as much promise as the ever-popular Nigerian Money Scam. Being able to move around and attack at will sounds great until you realize that for half of the clicks where he has the power he’s got a modified seven (7) attack value. On his last click of “Dreadnaught” he’ll have a nine (9) attack with that power, but in all likelihood he’ll already be based and will want to use his natural 11 attack instead. Further, considering how early he peaks, pushing isn’t the soundest of strategies. A push or two followed by a respectable hit is going to spin him past his best clicks without much trouble, and then those eight (8) attack clicks are all too near, and those shameful orange clicks of Toughness come along with them.

Rookie Hulk looks a lot like many of the Hulks that came before him. He’s got a dreaded activation click, but with that dab of Perplex, it’s actually a useful click. Once he’s off that, his powers ramp up slowly and peak just past mid-dial. This makes the Hulk pushable and at the same time should serve as a deterrent to attacks for fear of putting Hulk that much closer to his most punishing clicks. Once he gets Invulnerable, he keeps it, making him harder to KO than Mr. Incredible in his late-dial. While he doesn’t have an upfront move and attack ability, he does have Flurry which makes him an attractive clean-up hitter. And, once he gets Charge, he can walk the pain around without the -2 that comes with the “Dreadnaught” power. Charge initially shows up in conjunction with his best damage values and his best defensive values enabling him to really dish it out with a relative degree of safety from retaliation. When it arrives the second time, it’s on his final clicks where he again has nine (9) and 10 attacks, Perplex, Super Strength and three (3) damage. Stuck in the middle of all of this Charge are some of his best clicks with 11 attacks, high defenses and Leap/Climb to get him wherever he wants to go. In short, once the Hulk get’s past his two power-up clicks, he gets scary and he stays scary.

Mr. Incredible pins his hopes and his reason for existence on the “Dreadnaught” special power. But just as I refrained from wiring money to Nigeria to help out a businessman/ambassador/royal with the promise of receiving millions of dollars, I’m not buying in to this deal either. Special powers that come with built-in minuses just aren’t that special. As Dr. Who would say, “Never trust gimmicky gadgets.”, and this one is pretty gimmicky indeed. Special power aside, Mr. Incredible peaks prematurely and spends the majority of his dial deflating into deeper levels of shame and uselessness. Too bad there isn’t a pill for that. In spite of everything, I’ll still call him Mr. Incredible if for no other reason than it sounds so much better than Mr. Couldabeen. That’s why Rookie Hulk, as traditional and unimaginative as his dial may be, is going to be my choice every single time. For more entertainment, the Rookie Hulk can be equipped with the same couple of feats described above so that he can pound away and never stop.

Quick and Dirty Price Tag
There isn’t much data out there right now and what prices there are seem to be afflicted with elephantitis. The $30 to 50 dollar price range simply isn’t appropriate for this figure. I’ve seen the LE Incredible Hulk and he’s no LE Bruce Banner. As Mutant Mayhem showed us, all Hulk LEs are not created equal. He’s no more or less rare than any LE since the switch to awarding first place and fellowship the same prize. Given that, he should be widely available for $15 or less once people have a chance to win one and sell him. Do not buy Mr. Incredible for Bruce Banner prices. Seek medical attention immediately if you are seriously considering spending over $30 on this figure. Side effects of doing so may include having the word “Sucker” printed on your forehead with a black Sharpie, offers to sell you bridges in Brooklyn and London, and then there’s that swarm of Nigerians who will offer to turn your modest investment into millions overnight.

Thanks for reading. Next week there will be more M&M fun. See you then!


Tisk, tisk...usually I tend to agree with your reviews, but I have to say that you are waaaaaay off on this one.

Have you compared the I.C. Avengers Hulk to this one (or any other for that matter)?! This is the best "hands down" Avengers Hulk available. Lets see now...a whopping 7 clicks of 17 or higher defense clicks! Forget about the Move and Attack ability, even if he didn't have that power, this LE Hulk is dirt cheap and the Avengers T.A. only makes him much more versitile. Also, there are many "free" ways to make his Move and Attack ability work great. This LE is hands down more versitile, efficient and economical than his expensive "perplexing" counterpart.

I guess I just see something you don't. But still, your review was a good read. (even though I disagree) ;)

Mark my words people...this LE Hulk is DEFINITELY worth the $30 to $50 dollar price tag. People that tell you otherwise, just want to snag him from you for cheap!

USAgent
01/19/2008, 11:19
Regaurdless of Stats and stuff I have been waiting for this Hulk since the beginning of Clix. I have already paired this grey Hulk up with the ole skool Iron Man, it just looks all kinds of retro-awesomeness!

Shinzantetsu
01/19/2008, 13:04
Hmm. Is Hulk supposed to have two clicks of perplex at the end? The Wizkids stats says it's supposed to be CCE. (which would make a lot more sense to me) Unfortunately the Hulk figure I own has some coloration problems on the dial so I can't really check. All I know is that it's a dark color. -_-;

NeoShazam
01/20/2008, 13:46
I think this may be a rare miss for you ol'dut.

30 points difference and a better front click is WAY better for me.
I played the LE last night with Alpha Flight, handed him a computer and he started smashing.

The LE's movement is important to get him into the fight, hitting an opponent with the -2 is icing. That 30 point discount is a good start to buy a perplexer or Katana to help offset the numerical losses which I might or might not have clicked onto.

spider_ham
01/20/2008, 21:19
This is the Hulk I've been waiting for. Just he fact that he has the Avengers TA is awesome enough; no activation click, and the addition on a Move/Attack ability is gamma-irradiated icing on the cake. You'll need to add Unstoppable to ensure that he ignores hindering, or just Thunderbolt him to the Ultimates TA for the same cost. :cool: :cool: Shellhead might be a better option, as he's very pushable (push off the second click for a 20 DV on the third, with Invulnerability and a higher AV(10) ).

All this for just under 120 points. Eat your heart out, Infinity Challenge!

Boozehound
01/21/2008, 00:06
I like the fact that Hulk can attack for free using his Move and Attack power in conjunction with the Avengers TA. I think that being able to attack for free is a always a bonus and I'd prefer him over the Rookie.

fillonius
01/21/2008, 22:33
Sorry, but I am a judge. I would rule that Katana can't help out the Hulk in this way.

I might still be wrong, but there is at least one judge who doesn't agree with you. ; )

As another judge, you'd be right. ;) I agree the wording makes things ambiguous, but the RA has ruled that the special power is not Outsider-able, since it only gives you access to the ability.

For that same reason, though, Back-Alley Brawl WOULD give you the +2 bonus on move-and-attack (as long as you're not packing an object). It's worded similarly (but also includes feats). So with that and Communication Breakdown, you have two out of three games covered :)

SLVRSR4
01/22/2008, 11:32
As another judge, you'd be right. ;) I agree the wording makes things ambiguous, but the RA has ruled that the special power is not Outsider-able, since it only gives you access to the ability.

For that same reason, though, Back-Alley Brawl WOULD give you the +2 bonus on move-and-attack (as long as you're not packing an object). It's worded similarly (but also includes feats). So with that and Communication Breakdown, you have two out of three games covered :)


The RA has ruled on this? GREAT!:)

I'm glad he did. It means that whether I was wrong or right (wrong in this case) I can start figuring out how to make him work better. Y'know, it's funny that I was arguing the pro-Outsider stance so much. I would never play any Outsider with any Hulk anyway since I am a theme team purist. Guess I was just arguing for other people all along.:cheeky: