Do non-themed teams stand a chance?

[AZS]

I played my first tourney in a while last weekend and played a non-themed team.
The team held it's own pretty well, even against Malice BFC. But even two games were very close, I still went 1-2, so close don't cut it.
I felt like I was at a severe disadvantage for most of the tournament, going up against 2 mutant themed keyword teams that took advantage of the BFC ignore rule. And at 300 points, I just couldn't build in enough strategy to overcome it.

Are figs with minimal keywords, or even no keywords at all doomed to obscurity in the future of clix? I'd hate to see an awesome piece like Omega Red never get played because the tournament scene just doesn't support him anymore. :(

[Rurouni KJS]

Are figs with minimal keywords, or even no keywords at all doomed to obscurity in the future of clix? I'd hate to see an awesome piece like Omega Red never get played because the tournament scene just doesn't support him anymore. :(

Non-themed teams can certainly still compete, if they're built for balance and aren't especially vulnerable to any given BFC. I played this:

R Shazam
Johnny Quick
V Batman JL
Marvel Girl
Professor Bruttenholm

and utterly destroyed two theme teams, including one packing Malice. The team that beat me that evening was a mutant theme of Emma Frost, Ult. Scarlet Witch and Archangel and chiefly because of two mistakes I made (one minor, one major) that led to an early KO for Shazam.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I just posted a thread on the same topic.

I'd say that the jury is out. I did very well non-theme by abusing wildcards (Lois, Alfred, Ghost Widow) and by having regen + a healer just in case for Malice. But yeah, it's a bit uphill. The tradeoff is having a much more flexible pool to build from

My next experiment will be a non-theme team attempting to abuse Warbound.

[hair10]

Are figs with minimal keywords, or even no keywords at all doomed to obscurity in the future of clix?
My opinion... yes. I also see figs with "lesser" keywords falling by the wayside.

Since the M&M tourneys I've seen a couple non-keyword teams played and they never do exceptionally well. It's always the keyword teams that come out on top.

I'll be completely shocked to see a non-keyword team end up coming out on top in any of the major events this year.

[Jarimy123]

They stand a chance. I actually used 2 X Omega Red and 2 X V Hive Trooper and I won. I had to play against all theme teams as well and I didn't play against junk either. Like the guy said before you need balance for sure. I do think making a theme can offer advantages, but I do not think it eliminates theme teams, ESPECIALLY in non-floor events. I think in floor more than likely you almost need to run theme, not 100% but it's close. In constructed though I almost see a much wider range of figures that you can use that don't add up to a theme team. I've played both non-theme and theme and find no really huge advantage either way.

[Jarimy123]

My opinion... yes. I also see figs with "lesser" keywords falling by the wayside.

Since the M&M tourneys I've seen a couple non-keyword teams played and they never do exceptionally well. It's always the keyword teams that come out on top.

I'll be completely shocked to see a non-keyword team end up coming out on top in any of the major events this year.

I don't think you should be necessarily be shocked to see a non-theme team win in constructed. Practically all of the best combinations of great teams aren't theme. Wildcard abuse, Shazaam, Johnny Quick, Batman, and Stardust all still own.

Even Detective won't end up being seen a bunch. The best detective is Batman and running 4 Batman's gets owned too. The only Detective theme I have seen wasn't that great because there are hardly any fliers (they used R Martian Manhunter).

I think that if the major events somehow are made into a floor requirement that you will definitely see theme winning, but not in constructed formats.

BUT I do agree with you that figs with less keywords and with no keywords are definitely not played as much, especially in Floor. Which kind of sucks.

[magerunner]

I think that Keywords should be thought about more now with the Theme aspect in the points formula. Going so far as to give a "discount" to figures that have none and maybe causing certian key words to add (a point per Keyword)

Can you win, yes.

I think the reason why Theme is seen as so powerful is that Good players are using it to their advatage. If these same players quit playing theme we would hear that it is underpowered.

Are non theme at a disadvantage? Maybe.

If you go into a game without thinking ahead (no BFC, no real strat) then a shoddy theme can really tear you up. If you think ahead, pick the right BFC, and plan strat for the broad spectrum (Cookoo's, Teen, Mutant) then you have a good chance of coming out ahead.

Are figures with no keywords, or seldom used Keywords, not going to be played? No.

People are going to play them, either due to fun ideas (Arcade), or just power for the punch (The Hood, Omega Red).

Theme is going to become harder when retirement hits as we are going to loss 3 of the last 4 "REV" Sets and this is going to lower the figure count by quite a bit. Then again, as they are making sets more theme driven it may become the fact that Theme is the only way to play. As of right now I do not think that Theme has a shoe in victory. I do like what theme brings to the table, it has made me more interest in team building and brought me back to the game. Well, let's see how things pan out.

[NucGhost]

I think discussion of this should be reserved until post-Crisis floor events. Mutant themes are doing really well because of their abundance in M&M, but what about after Crisis? The common Batman can make any current non theme team succeed, but maybe he could be themed in Crisis to even make floor. :eek: Will pieces like Stardust be able to compete without the other Herald keywords? Absolutely, but it will be tricky, and as always it comes down to dice.

(I'll probably post more after I get back from class. I REALLY like the opening of these forums, btw.)

[Vevilaughs]

I would like for Wizkids to make a theme-team ruling for a team made up of all figures with no key words.

This might add to the value of Omega Red.


However, to answer your original questions. I think you either need to ride the wave that is theme teams or get caught in the undertow.

[Jarimy123]

I would like for Wizkids to make a theme-team ruling for a team made up of all figures with no key words.

This might add to the value of Omega Red.


However, to answer your original questions. I think you either need to ride the wave that is theme teams or get caught in the undertow.

They have for Unrestricted tourneys. If you can convince your judge as to why you have a theme team they can rule it as one. But alas not for constructed....

[adamkomar]

Do non-feated teams stand a chance? Yes. Do non-BFC players stand a chance? Yes. So do non-theme players. This is going to sound rude, but it's the only way my brain can word it: If you're losing to theme teams to blame your own force building and playing skills. Theme teams lose just as often as they win. It depends on the player and the force, not the mechanic you choose or don't choose to employ.

If you're having a problem taking on theme teams then figure out where the hole is in your forces and compensate. The article I wrote on "building for everything" was actually inspired by so many people saying they're having such a hard time dealing with theme teams. I suggest reading over it (link is in my signature) as well as the added discussion by others to get a good idea of how to handle everything. Further discussion is, of course, welcome.

[Feral2k]

Actually, I haven't seen all too many theme-teams at my venue. Come to think of it, I've only seen one do altogether well, and my non-themed team destroyed it. It all depends on your venue.

[adamkomar]

Dependsontheplayer,dependsontheplayer,dependsontheplayer.

[bagman04]

Yes they do. Although I am sure someone has already touched on this point,
Theme teams are built around a limited amount of figures, thus shrinking the variety of pieces used on a team.

[greenscar1991]

I have done really well with non-theme teams. I have seem theme teams plow over some players at my venue though but depending on what another player has in their force, you can usually find a strategy around there team.

[tidge]

To answer the thread's title question: HAIL YES!

My POV: Theme teams offer onlt two BIG advantages (and a couple minor ones)

The first advantage is on "roll for MAP". The second is "ignore a BFC".

In the current AP/OP environment, map choice isn't even an issue.

The "ignore a BFC" is bigger...but in my own experience, many players don't really play BFCs anyway...and late converts to the program (because they can ignore them) often chose (IMO) pretty "wimpy" ones anyway. I think I've only seen Poor Teamwork and Deep Shadows played ONCE since July...probably because more players RELY on the game effects that those nerf.

Much of Tourney Clix is "rock paper scissors", and I happen to think that non-theme players can be REALLY successful as long as they are willing to risk playing against BFCs. I found that 150 points of Batman Allies was enough to cause 300 point teams of M&M FLOOR teams fits....just as I found a non-theme Tomar Re team was able to punish teams based on range-10 powers of Danger, High Evolutionary, etc.

[batjester]

In a game involving rolling dice, the answer is always going to be yes. Are they at a disadvantage? Sure. How big of one depends on how your team is built (obviously) and just what team you end up going against. Having your BFC ignored might hurt, but then you can always just pick ones that help your team rather than the ones designed to hurt your opponents. I like having the larger pool of figures to choose from when building, although I'm one of the few in my area that has used theme teams.

[Esper3k]

I am of the opinion that non-theme teams, in competative play, are no longer the way to go.

The ignoring BFC ability of theme teams is just too powerful to be overlooked now.

Yes, while a non-theme team can play BFCs that benefit them, they also run a high risk of chance at being hit with a BFC that will be completely devestating to them, such as Poor Teamwork, Armor Wars, IFF, Isolation, Deep Shadows, and Loyalty.

In a large tournament where you're playing say 5+ rounds, I would build a theme team that is largely unhurt by the BFC's I play and pack a few nasty ones just for non-theme teams or to force an opposing theme team to have a hard choice as to what BFC to ignore.

I think as we get more pieces with good keywords, theme teams will only become stronger.

[Bubblehead]

I am of the opinion that non-theme teams, in competative play, are no longer the way to go.

The ignoring BFC ability of theme teams is just too powerful to be overlooked now.

Yes, while a non-theme team can play BFCs that benefit them, they also run a high risk of chance at being hit with a BFC that will be completely devestating to them, such as Poor Teamwork, Armor Wars, IFF, Isolation, Deep Shadows, and Loyalty.

In a large tournament where you're playing say 5+ rounds, I would build a theme team that is largely unhurt by the BFC's I play and pack a few nasty ones just for non-theme teams or to force an opposing theme team to have a hard choice as to what BFC to ignore.

I think as we get more pieces with good keywords, theme teams will only become stronger.

Could not agree more, Esper. That's exactly how I'm going to try and roll at WWLA.

[Rurouni KJS]

I am of the opinion that non-theme teams, in competative play, are no longer the way to go.

The ignoring BFC ability of theme teams is just too powerful to be overlooked now.

I think as we get more pieces with good keywords, theme teams will only become stronger.

I disagree somewhat. A well-built non-themed team should never be devastated by a BFC, and should also pack its own BFCs to make an opposing themed team have to "pick its poison" when ignoring one or the other.

[Esper3k]

I disagree somewhat. A well-built non-themed team should never be devastated by a BFC, and should also pack its own BFCs to make an opposing themed team have to "pick its poison" when ignoring one or the other.

Just curious, but what well-built non-theme team would you consider to be have no weakness these days if a specific BFC goes through?

Poor Teamwork hurts balanced teams.
Inertial Interference Field hurts teams with move + attack powers.
Deep Shadows hurts ranged teams.
Armor Wars hurts teams with damage reducers.
Loyalty hurts Wildcard teams.
Isolation hurts teams using defense/attack sharing or Blades/Claws/Fangs.

These are just ones I've thought of off the top of my head - all of which a Theme team can ignore with impunity.

[Esper3k]

Also just to note, I think the strongest non-theme team these days that has the best chance against a plethora of theme teams is a wildcard team. With Disbanded out and Loyalty being one of the worst BFC's for you, I think this is your best chance.

At least that's what I would play if I were to build a non-theme team.

[Rurouni KJS]

Just curious, but what well-built non-theme team would you consider to be have no weakness these days if a specific BFC goes through?

Poor Teamwork hurts balanced teams.
Inertial Interference Field hurts teams with move + attack powers.
Deep Shadows hurts ranged teams.
Armor Wars hurts teams with damage reducers.
Loyalty hurts Wildcard teams.
Isolation hurts teams using defense/attack sharing or Blades/Claws/Fangs.


No single one of those will truly cripple a well-balanced team, and only one will ever be in effect in a given one-on-one game.

[Esper3k]

I agree that only one will be in effect any given game if the non-theme team is playing none of those BFC's.

However, I'm honestly curious as to what type of balanced non-theme team you believe would be able to hold up well against all of those when its opponent is ignoring those?

[Rurouni KJS]

Well, let's consider this team I ran the other day:

R Shazam
OotS Batman
Marvel Girl
Johnny Quick
3-pt. pog

OK. Poor Teamwork is a problem since Marvel Girl becomes a bit of deadweight. But she's only 40 points and might still work as a meat shield for the HSSers. Batman is unaffected.
Inertial Interference Field is the biggest problem for this team as it blunts Shazam's effectiveness somewhat and JQ's a lot. But using the Meteorite or Generator or Soda Machine keep Shazam potent, and JQ still has utility as PC -- if he's not going to make as many attacks, he can take CSA tokens himself more often. And again, Batman is completely unaffected, while Marvel Girl's TK can mitigate the loss of move+attack.
Deep Shadows hinders the TK yo-yo and CSA LOF, but that's not a killer with good positioning. It really helps Batman, too, in most cases.
Armor Wars hurts Shazam badly if he gets hit, but his mobility is enough to keep him from being an easy target. He's also the only one who need worry about the effect, really.
Loyalty has no effect.
Isolation has no effect except one click of JQ's.

There's no question that these BFCs hurt the team, but unlike something like a LAMP team, which can't stand Poor Teamwork, none of them will cause it to crumble.

[adamkomar]

If any single BFC devastates a team then the team is not balanced nor well-built.

[Esper3k]

Well, let's consider this team I ran the other day:

R Shazam
OotS Batman
Marvel Girl
Johnny Quick
3-pt. pog

OK. Poor Teamwork is a problem since Marvel Girl becomes a bit of deadweight. But she's only 40 points and might still work as a meat shield for the HSSers. Batman is unaffected.
Inertial Interference Field is the biggest problem for this team as it blunts Shazam's effectiveness somewhat and JQ's a lot. But using the Meteorite or Generator or Soda Machine keep Shazam potent, and JQ still has utility as PC -- if he's not going to make as many attacks, he can take CSA tokens himself more often. And again, Batman is completely unaffected, while Marvel Girl's TK can mitigate the loss of move+attack.
Deep Shadows hinders the TK yo-yo and CSA LOF, but that's not a killer with good positioning. It really helps Batman, too, in most cases.
Armor Wars hurts Shazam badly if he gets hit, but his mobility is enough to keep him from being an easy target. He's also the only one who need worry about the effect, really.
Loyalty has no effect.
Isolation has no effect except one click of JQ's.

There's no question that these BFCs hurt the team, but unlike something like a LAMP team, which can't stand Poor Teamwork, none of them will cause it to crumble.

This team may not be utterly destroyed by a specific battlefield condition, but do you feel it's strong enough to survive against a strong Theme team who is also ignoring the BFC they hit you with in addition to them getting map choice?

Exhaustion is another BFC I would pack if I were playing a Theme team with Warbound, which gives r. Shazam fits if he can't get to his phone booth quickly.

[Rurouni KJS]

This team may not be utterly destroyed by a specific battlefield condition, but do you feel it's strong enough to survive against a strong Theme team who is also ignoring the BFC they hit you with in addition to them getting map choice?

It's certainly strong enough to survive those BFCs, and even win against them, because most theme teams, even the strong ones, will usually lack some element that non-themed teams have the flexibility to field.

For example, the Spy keyword that has yielded some strong builds in Floor lacks the mobility of my team. Teen themes are very light on Outwit.

Basically, each keyword has its weakness. Except for maybe Mutants.


Exhaustion is another BFC I would pack if I were playing a Theme team with Warbound, which gives r. Shazam fits if he can't get to his phone booth quickly.

Yep. That's the one feat that can put a serious crimp in his game (even with the Phone Booth, because that object deals pushing damage). Fortunately, the team still has two solid secondary attackers in Batman and Johnny Quick, and there's always your own BFC to possibly put a crimp in the themed team.

Essentially, the odds are about even between a min/maxed team and a strong themed build.

[AutobotBubbs]

My personal philosophy.... it doesn't matter how well your team is built if you can't roll more than 3 to save your life.

[Wolverine_Hulk]

Well, let's consider this team I ran the other day:

R Shazam
OotS Batman
Marvel Girl
Johnny Quick
3-pt. pog

OK. Poor Teamwork is a problem since Marvel Girl becomes a bit of deadweight. But she's only 40 points and might still work as a meat shield for the HSSers. Batman is unaffected.
Inertial Interference Field is the biggest problem for this team as it blunts Shazam's effectiveness somewhat and JQ's a lot. But using the Meteorite or Generator or Soda Machine keep Shazam potent, and JQ still has utility as PC -- if he's not going to make as many attacks, he can take CSA tokens himself more often. And again, Batman is completely unaffected, while Marvel Girl's TK can mitigate the loss of move+attack.
Deep Shadows hinders the TK yo-yo and CSA LOF, but that's not a killer with good positioning. It really helps Batman, too, in most cases.
Armor Wars hurts Shazam badly if he gets hit, but his mobility is enough to keep him from being an easy target. He's also the only one who need worry about the effect, really.
Loyalty has no effect.
Isolation has no effect except one click of JQ's.

There's no question that these BFCs hurt the team, but unlike something like a LAMP team, which can't stand Poor Teamwork, none of them will cause it to crumble.

What about Malice?

[Esper3k]

It's certainly strong enough to survive those BFCs, and even win against them, because most theme teams, even the strong ones, will usually lack some element that non-themed teams have the flexibility to field.

For example, the Spy keyword that has yielded some strong builds in Floor lacks the mobility of my team. Teen themes are very light on Outwit.

Basically, each keyword has its weakness. Except for maybe Mutants.

Yep. That's the one feat that can put a serious crimp in his game (even with the Phone Booth, because that object deals pushing damage). Fortunately, the team still has two solid secondary attackers in Batman and Johnny Quick, and there's always your own BFC to possibly put a crimp in the themed team.

Essentially, the odds are about even between a min/maxed team and a strong themed build.

I guess we can agree to disagree (although there's nothing wrong with that). :)

I personally believe that while a non-theme team can be well built enough to still function under BFCs, over the course of a long tournament, the non-theme team will eventually get hit by a BFC that will hurt it enough for a theme team to win.

Of course, in any large tournament, I believe not only do you have to have a strong team and strong playing skills to win, but you need a strong dose of luck as well (having favorable matchups, dice rolls, what BFCs you're hit by, etc.)

Oh, on the Spy keyword, my experience with it in Floor was that yes, it can suffer from mobility somewhat, but when you open it up to the full restricted list, that problem goes away (you have great pieces like Ghost Widow, Iron Widow and imo, the best taxi in the game currently, r. Green Flame, open to you).

[The Mattador]

WK has made it almost necessary to play theme teams in the constructed events. I really wish they would rethink the power of the keywords and theme teams. I know it won't happen, but it is as close to being broken as anything. They introduced BFC's in Mutant Mayhem to change the game up and now they are forcing people to resort to using similar teams every week due to the restrictions of the floor and the power of the theme team.

If every figure had a keyword and they would have dispersed them more sparsely across figures, say instead of giving 75% of the new Marvel figures the 'mutant' keyword, then it could have worked, but I'm not sure it was well thought out.

It is, however, a great idea and makes things interesting, I just wish that there weren't so many 'martial artists' and 'mutants'...

[Rurouni KJS]

What about Malice?

Not much of a problem, as I built the team to survive it. Early on, Shazam took the Malice click to activate. From then, it's just a matter of alternating any of the three attackers every turn (since Marvel Girl is able to TK someone immediately). In a real pinch, the pog can take the damage.

[adamkomar]

The only thing that's necessary to play HeroClix is the use of your brain.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Malice. It's great if you can get your opponent down to few figures and massively outfigure them, but other than that, I don't think it's incredibly effective unless you're running some sort of run away team.

I think older BFCs such as Exhaustion and Communication Breakdown often get forgotten in favor of new BFCs.

[TheComedian]

It's certainly strong enough to survive those BFCs, and even win against them, because most theme teams, even the strong ones, will usually lack some element that non-themed teams have the flexibility to field.


I feel the non-Theme team you listed would be in serious trouble trying to handle any Mystical keyword Shazam teams especially if you already used your one Ordinary Day, to use one example.

[Esper3k]

I've actually been playing a Mystical Shazam team this week:

105 r. Shazam
8 +Protected
25 +Fortitude
53 e. Question
8 +Protected
33 r. Icemaiden
5 +Construct
35 Scarlet Witch
0 +Alpha Flight
20 Warbound
=292 (wanted to fit a second Construct, for Scarlet Witch, but couldn't get a hold of one).

Pretty standard idea of having Shazam whacking someone with an object (usually dumpster) every round, warbounding onto the Question. This variant of the team uses Icemaiden to barrier every round as well to protect Shazam while he gets activated and if he can actually make it back to the team.

On the New York map, it's been particularly brutal because of all the blocking and elevated Shazam has available to hide behind.

[hair10]

The only thing that's necessary to play HeroClix is the use of your brain.
Well, you usually need some figs, a map, and some dice too. ;)

[Jarimy123]

Not much of a problem, as I built the team to survive it. Early on, Shazam took the Malice click to activate. From then, it's just a matter of alternating any of the three attackers every turn (since Marvel Girl is able to TK someone immediately). In a real pinch, the pog can take the damage.


Agreed. I actually ran Malice on a non-theme team just to get a reaction out of people I played against and see how they react. Most people were like "wow that's crazy." Never hurts to try to get in someone's head at any point in the match, I don't mean like be a jerk to them and mock them, but playing Malice on a non-theme makes people start to question your sanity hahaha.

[silent_shaDe]

I think one of the keys to using a non-themed team in an environment where you know a lot of themed teams are going to be played is manipulating BFCs in your favor. Always pack that Ordinary Day.

If you're going up against Malice, remember that you can move your whole team into position on the first turn and leave one guy in his starting position. Choose to deal the damage to the figure in its starting position; he can't be damaged, so Malice is pointless on the first turn, and now you're primed to open fire the next turn (in most cases).

It all comes down ultimately to playing your opponent. In any game of strategy with a little bit of luck involved, it's all about playing your opponent, measuring his or her next move. Poker, chess, Heroclix; it doesn't matter. Manipulate the situation in your favor and you can come out on top playing non-themed against themed. There are always games you won't win, but those games should more often be the direct counter to your team.

[Esper3k]

I'm not saying that it's not possible for a non-themed team to win against a theme team.

I'm saying that I believe that a theme team has a much better chance at winning a large tournament than a non-theme team does because a non-theme team is inherently more succeptible to BFCs than a theme team is.

Can a non-theme team get lucky and get great matchups throughout an entire tournament? Sure. However, I believe that in a tournament of high level competative play and over the course of many rounds of play, the larger selection of figures available to a non-theme team will not outweigh the BFC ignoring benefit of a theme team.

[silent_shaDe]

I'd much prefer to field a non-themed team in a large point game than a themed one regardless of BFCs. There's a lot more potential for abusive strategies... wild card teams, one or two man firing squads (my personal favorite is Thundering Blow on Thanos with two V Badoon Commanders for Enhancement, if anything survives that round, it's Doomsday or someone with big damage reducers all the way down), and you can go on and on. Those are just two types of teams I've wiped theme teams out with quite handily in larger point games.

[Esper3k]

I haven't given non-theme vs theme teams in unrestricted overly much yet, but my gut feeling would have to go with the theme teams overall again.

Yes, while non-theme teams can have nice teams, the BFC's they'll have to face are also much nastier (Disbanded, Power Dampening Field, Earthquake, Crosswinds, Overconfidence, etc.). I would think that you could still probably build a nasty wildcarding theme team in unrestricted and not have to worry about those BFCs.

[adamkomar]

Well, you usually need some figs, a map, and some dice too. ;)

Not if you have a good imagination!

[mellody bunny]

Non theme teams do fine in my area. But i think as a whole we're not a "highly competitive" lot.

[Uniquist]

This begs the question, what ARE the best non-theme teams?

The first post's one is good. Here's another. More?

105 R Shazam (almost a no-brainer)
8 Protected
40 R Wendigo (cheap, a click of regen, great to suck up Malice tokens. 3rd string attacker)
35 Scarlet Witch
40 R Marvel Girl (toss out Shazam of course)
45 Speedy (your anti-SUB fig, tie-up, 2ndary attacker)
27 E Mockingbird (tie-up, 2ndary attacker)
=300

[silent_shaDe]

This begs the question, what ARE the best non-theme teams?

The first post's one is good. Here's another. More?

105 R Shazam (almost a no-brainer)
8 Protected
40 R Wendigo (cheap, a click of regen, great to suck up Malice tokens. 3rd string attacker)
35 Scarlet Witch
40 R Marvel Girl (toss out Shazam of course)
45 Speedy (your anti-SUB fig, tie-up, 2ndary attacker)
27 E Mockingbird (tie-up, 2ndary attacker)
=300
My Planet Hulk dial-winning team is downright nasty and non-themed.

The Leader - 116
w/Monster Hunter - 3
OOTS Batman - 75
w/Thwart - 15
Ultimates Wasp (from Avengers) - 49
X-23 - 35
Val Cooper (pog) - 7
= 300

Wasp is the only one vulnerable to a non-Ultimate/Superman Ally, so taxi in Batman and drop him in front of her. The Leader moves to one of her sides and X-23 to the other. Val can't do anything (3 moves). Next turn, use OOTS and Thwart whatever feat you choose. If you Thwart Fortitude, you've got 2 Outwits to burn the target with. Not to mention the fact that one of the Outwits sees right through Stealth.

If the Leader gets hit for 3, Mastermind it to Wasp to put her into Stealth too!

This team wasted a feated-up Maestro with Marvel Girl and a feated-up Green Scar. If I didn't have that Thwart, I would have lost both of those games in all likelihood. It went 3-0, and swept every match. I think I took more clicks from pushing than from my opponents.

[TheComedian]

For best non-theme, if you were not using Shazam I would say this core:


88 Lightning Lad
+AP
+Prot
83 Batman OotS
+Prot
72 Ghost Widow
+AP
+Prot
17 Lois Lane
-------------------
260


+40 pts left for your preference.

[Komixfrk75]

I won a Hulk dial without a theme team

Played

Meryln
NGN Hulk
Agent Brand
And some other figures can't remember at the moment

[Haroudo Xavier]

Of course they do. There is plenty of cheese around yet. :)
Scarlet Witch, Shazam R, Johnny Quick, Batman OotS, etc and ad nauseum.

Thing is: theme teams still have limits on what to pick and specially in Floor format, non-theme teams have a nice chance of getting the prize. I guess, closer to retirement theme teams will be much more powerful and then weak after it, due to greater choice (just before) and lack of choice (just after), but anyway, a cheese team has chance against themes. And that´s pretty much the choice now, or you pick a cheese or a theme.

[Esper3k]

Of course they do. There is plenty of cheese around yet. :)
Scarlet Witch, Shazam R, Johnny Quick, Batman OotS, etc and ad nauseum.

Thing is: theme teams still have limits on what to pick and specially in Floor format, non-theme teams have a nice chance of getting the prize. I guess, closer to retirement theme teams will be much more powerful and then weak after it, due to greater choice (just before) and lack of choice (just after), but anyway, a cheese team has chance against themes. And that´s pretty much the choice now, or you pick a cheese or a theme.

The thing is, what you just said about theme teams (having greater choice before retirement and less choice afterwards), is also true for non-theme teams.

Non-theme teams will always have more choice in figures than a theme team. However, the question is going to be will that choice allow them to consistantly defeat the BFC Ignore/Map Choice/Extra PC benefits that a theme team will have in a long competative tournament.

This is where I believe that non-theme teams cannot consistantly win.