Should pogs have KWs?

[Zatara55]

I think they should. I'm generally not a big fan of pogs. I'd rather see these made into clix form. However if they are going to be made they should be able to be played. The way things are now if a pog is on a team that team can't benefit from a theme build which puts that player at a disadvantage. I would like to see the rules changed so that pogs are assigned KWs or that they don't take away the theme bonuses if played. Of course people would run a dozen Lian Harpers to get the extra prob rolls (she'd obviously would have the Suicide Squad TA:) ). My answer to this is that pogs would not count towards theme counts in regards to the extra benefits of prob rolls, map rolls, etc. because their cost is so low. I just would like to play my Frog of Thunder on an animal team and still get the theme bonuses.

[Esper3k]

I like the idea of them getting keywords but not counting towards the Theme team bonus.

There are many pogs that really should have keywords, but don't have them, unfortunately.

I believe your idea would do well in fitting pogs onto theme teams, but not letting it get out of hand.

[BudPalmer]

I want them to not hurt theme teams. I don't care how that happens.

[The Mattador]

I'm with Bud on this one...let's not have them give them team bonuses like initiative and prob, but at least let them not DQ a team from being a theme. I would either say give them one keyword or rule that they do not count at all. They are just bystanders...

[RedDragon]

Yes I think they should. And if WIZKIDS was to make the higherlander rule a offical rule. We wouldn't have a promblem with them making the game broken. IMO that is.

[AutobotBubbs]

Give them Keywords!! I can see how they could be abused, but I also think they shouldn't interfere with theme qualification.

[sengirv]

I want them to not hurt theme teams. I don't care how that happens.
Ditto. Why make them if they hurt your new game mechanic, something that people have been calling for, for years - make theme teams worth the effort?

Give them keywords, make it so that you can't play more than one or two POGS on one team to keep the theme bonuses.

Or don't give them keywords, and don't have them count against theme teams.

[SLVRSR4]

NO DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's all we would need for people to make a 300 point team with an uber powerful character and 2 pogs to complete the theme. Warbound would be an even bigger problem! Think about the big picture. After all, it's pog abuse with Wildcards that made them stop giving them team abilities!

[magerunner]

Well, OK I say give Keywords to Pog people but (and here is the big one) A, as in one, keyword should add an additional one point to the pog. Also have only pogs over 10 points with key words, this is to represent how they are more in line for having the key word.

Let them count for Theme bonus, let them get the Probs. If you put more than two (if they cost 10+ points) you will have a very large effect on your team.

I do not think that any pog made thus far should be given a Keyword though.

[TheInkTank]

I think a ruling that they don't get keywords, but also don't count against a theme team build would be best.

No theme penalty for having them, but no theme benefit either. They are, after all, bystanders.

It also prevents someone from taking a low or mid range powerhouse character (like StrongGuy) and filling the rest of the team with similar key worded POGS, giving the theme team bonus as well as a free reroll for every three POGs.

[anonym0use]

I think a ruling that they don't get keywords, but also don't count against a theme team build would be best.

No theme penalty for having them, but no theme benefit either. They are, after all, bystanders.



agreed.:grin:

[BudPalmer]

I think a ruling that they don't get keywords, but also don't count against a theme team build would be best.

No theme penalty for having them, but no theme benefit either. They are, after all, bystanders.

That strikes me as the most logical approach.

[SLVRSR4]

Think about it, though. The whole notion of a theme team bonus is that these characters work so well together that they are a well oiled machine on the battlefield and can strategize and overcome their opponents with logic and training. Say you've got the Avengers on the field. They are one of the most well oiled machines in the comics (at least the classic Avengers were when Cap was still alive). Now throw Aunt May, Lian Harper, and Franklin Richards out into the battlefield directly between the Avengers who are facing off against The masters of evil. The Avengers are going to end up being thrown off their game by trying to fight while protecting innocents.

[BudPalmer]

Think about it, though. The whole notion of a theme team bonus is that these characters work so well together that they are a well oiled machine on the battlefield and can strategize and overcome their opponents with logic and training. Say you've got the Avengers on the field. They are one of the most well oiled machines in the comics (at least the classic Avengers were when Cap was still alive). Now throw Aunt May, Lian Harper, and Franklin Richards out into the battlefield directly between the Avengers who are facing off against The masters of evil. The Avengers are going to end up being thrown off their game by trying to fight while protecting innocents.

But then what does that do for pogs that should have been figures like Harvey Bullock, Renee Montanya, Oberon, Doug Ramsey, Ken Hale, etc? Not all pogs are bystanders.

[SLVRSR4]

But then what does that do for pogs that should have been figures like Harvey Bullock, Renee Montanya, Oberon, Doug Ramsey, Ken Hale, etc? Not all pogs are bystanders.


Well my argument to that is that Wizkids needs to rectify their mistakes and remake them all as actual figures. The figures can have keywords. Also, add Swarm to your list. He's a Nazi made of bees for cryin' out loud!

[BudPalmer]

Well my argument to that is that Wizkids needs to rectify their mistakes and remake them all as actual figures. The figures can have keywords. Also, add Swarm to your list. He's a Nazi made of bees for cryin' out loud!


He slipped off my list because I don't have him.

[hair10]

I like the idea of them getting keywords but not counting towards the Theme team bonus.

Ditto. Detective Chimp should be with Shadowpact (and a detective obviously). Val Cooper should be part of X-Factor. Legionnaire should be part of the LEGION. These and many others are just blatently obvious and the keyword mechanic could be easily reworked to accomodate them (it really needs a revamp anyway).

[WolvieFan9]

Now throw Aunt May, Lian Harper, and Franklin Richards out into the battlefield directly between the Avengers who are facing off against The masters of evil.



But Aunt May, Lian Harper, and Franklin Richards would not get an "Avengers" keyword, so they would break the theme rule for theme bonus.

The problem of course is that some bystander tokens should not be "bystanders" and should be figures.

President Horne was a bystander.
Sue Dibny was a bystander.
Lian Harper was a bystander.
Joe Chill was a bystander.

HOWEVER...

Misty Knight was not a bystander.
Colleen Wing was not a bystander.
Lila Cheney was not a bystander.
Lockheed was not a bystander.
Doug Ramsey was not a bystander.
Wild Sentinel is a kind of generic, but no way should it break a Robot theme.
And Jamie Madrox was not a bystander. ESPECIALLY Multiple Man.

YES, I agree the long-term fix is to make all these into regular figures. (Multiple Man, they have, obviously.) But that's not going to happen any time soon.

I don't think every bystander needs a keyword, but I think some deserve them.

I personally like the "keyword light" rule -- does not break the theme team rules, but does not count toward the theme for prob. control or map selection.

C'mon, who WOULDN'T want to see a theme team of Mr. Mind, the Super-Apes, Detective Chimp, and Ken Hale!?!?!

[Granite Moose]

I like the idea of them getting keywords but not counting towards the Theme team bonus.

There are many pogs that really should have keywords, but don't have them, unfortunately.

I believe your idea would do well in fitting pogs onto theme teams, but not letting it get out of hand.

I agree with you on this. It limits Theme team abuse and allows you to add Pogs which shouldn't negate a Theme team.

[shortysben]

Absolutely, pieces like L-ron should have "robot" keyword, Val cooper should have "x-factor", situations like that I am all for!

They destroy your theme just to fill out your build, thats not right BRO!

[TheInkTank]

I am still against them having keywords, but not counting towards theme conditions. Yes, some of them have obvious keyword categories they fall into, but to give them keywords, but not let you gain any benefit from that ...

It's offsetting the balance.

POGs with keywords, but they don't count towards theme bonuses:
You are limited in who you can add on the team if you need to fill an 8 point slot, but no POGS with keywords fit your team. what if you did want that Legion team, but couldn't fit Legionare on there and no other POGs fit the bill? are you going to have to rebuild your core figs just to make room for a keyworded POG?

Negative aspect:
Penalized for using a theme team and not being able to round out the team with POGs.

POGs with keywords, and they do count towards theme bonuses:
Potential for POG abuse in gaining an unusual amount of re-rolls or in padding an uber fig to git it the theme bonuses.

Negative aspect:
Potential for rules abuse.

POGs with no keywords, and no affect on theme bonuses:

You can fill out a team with POGs that fit the point build. No need to worry about making all the math fit.

Positive aspect:
If you use them, great. If you don't use them, no problem. You're not incuring a penalty either way.

[m0rpheus]

I like the idea that they get keywords but don't count towards your keyword total.

[bagman04]

Yes. Or at the very least, should not take away the theme bonus if used on a team.

[TheInkTank]

I like the idea that they get keywords but don't count towards your keyword total.

Yea, but then what would be the point? If you get no benefit, or penalty, then what is the point of arbitrarily assigning them keywords?

They serve no purpose, good or ill.

Heck, without keywords you can do more justifications.

Like a Ken Hale POG could be "assigned" to a monkey team, obviously. but what about a "people with guns" team, or a "people in a suit" team?

[doctor_x]

IMO-

Some pogs should have keywords but most, no.

Then they should be allowed to be in theme team builds but not count towards the theme bonuses.

[m0rpheus]

POGs with keywords, but they don't count towards theme bonuses:
You are limited in who you can add on the team if you need to fill an 8 point slot, but no POGS with keywords fit your team. what if you did want that Legion team, but couldn't fit Legionare on there and no other POGs fit the bill? are you going to have to rebuild your core figs just to make room for a keyworded POG?

Negative aspect:
Penalized for using a theme team and not being able to round out the team with POGs.

How is this different from any other theme team build? It's not like you can throw in any cheap fig that doesn't fit with the rest of the theme because you still have points left. Either rebuild to make room for the BT or leave it out and use some feats.

[WolvieFan9]

I like the idea that they get keywords but don't count towards your keyword total.



Yea, but then what would be the point? If you get no benefit, or penalty, then what is the point of arbitrarily assigning them keywords?

They serve no purpose, good or ill.

Heck, without keywords you can do more justifications.

Like a Ken Hale POG could be "assigned" to a monkey team, obviously. but what about a "people with guns" team, or a "people in a suit" team?



The point is that you are currently penalized for putting a bystander on your team. The bystander breaks your theme team.

The point of giving CERTAIN bystanders keywords is that they should be able to be on a team without ruining the bonus because they were regular members of a team.

The model we are suggesting is that they should not be counted toward the theme team for satisfying the requirements, but they could be on the team without breaking the theme.

For example, if you have five X-Factor members and 7 points left over, you should be able to add a Jamie Madrox bystander without breaking your theme. However, the bystander should not count as a 6th member of the team, giving you a second PC bonus and a +6 to map choice roll. (This is where it could become abusable.)

Likewise, if you have two X-Factor members, adding a Jamie Madrox bystander should not count as the third member of the team in order to earn the theme team bonus.

[m0rpheus]

The point is that you are currently penalized for putting a bystander on your team. The bystander breaks your theme team.
The point of giving CERTAIN bystanders keywords is that they should be able to be on a team without ruining the bonus because they were regular members of a team.
The model we are suggesting is that they should not be counted toward the theme team for satisfying the requirements, but they could be on the team without breaking the theme.
For example, if you have five X-Factor members and 7 points left over, you should be able to add a Jamie Madrox bystander without breaking your theme. However, the bystander should not count as a 6th member of the team, giving you a second PC bonus and a +6 to map choice roll. (This is where it could become abusable.)
Likewise, if you have two X-Factor members, adding a Jamie Madrox bystander should not count as the third member of the team in order to earn the theme team bonus.

Exactly. It neither helps nor hurts your theme.
So I was bored and sat down to think IF they had Keywords what should they have?
Here is my list. The few characters I don't know are marked with an ? so suggestions would be nice.
Avengers
Edwin Jarvis - Avengers, Mighty Avengers
Jimmy Woo - Spy, SHIELD, Past
Ken Hale - Animal, Soldier, SHIELD, Past
"Frenchie" DuChamp - Soldier
Everett K. Ross - ?
Kat Farrell - Reporter
Duane Freeman - ?
Thug - None

Armor Wars
Pepper Potts - None
Happy Hogan - None
Justin Hammer - None
Herbie - Robot, Fantastic Four
Doug Ramsey - Teen, New Mutants
Wyatt Wingfoot - None
Tony Stark L.M.D. - Celebrity, Robot

Collateral Damage
Detective Chimp - Animal, Shadowpact
Eddie Fyers - Spy
Sue Dibny - Justice League Europe, Superbuddies, Opal City
Ted Knight - Opal City, Justice Society
Uncle Dudley - Fawcett City
Linda Park-West - Reporter
Oberon - Justice League International

DC Bystanders
Alfred Pennyworth - Gotham City
Lois Lane - Metropolis, Reporter
Lana Lang - None
Martha Kent - None
Jonathan Kent - None
Perry White - Reporter, Metropolis
Linda Park - Reporter
Paper Boy - None
Scientist - Scientist (duh lol)
Security Guard - None
Metropolis Transit Driver - Metropolis
Businesswoman - None

Fantastic Forces
Moira MacTaggart - Scientist, Excalibur, X-men
Henry Peter Gyrich - Avengers, Spy
Professor Storm - Scientist
Misty Knight - Heroes for Hire, Martial Artist, Police, Detective
Colleen Wing - Heroes for Hire, Martial Artist, Detective
Wild Sentinel - Robot
Willie Lumpkin - None

Icons
Lucius Fox - Gotham City
L-Ron - Robot, Justice League Task Force
Maggie Sawyer - Police, Metropolis, Gotham City
Snapper Carr - Justice League of America, Young Justice, Checkmate
Renee Montoya - Police, Gotham City
Lian Harper - None
Speed Saunders - Detective
Invincible
William Clockwell - None

Justice League
Kyle "Ace" Morgan - None
Walter "Prof" Haley - Scientist
Matthew "Red" Ryan - None
Leslie "Rocky" Davis - None
Mera - Atlantis
Joe Chill - None
Iris West-Allen - Reporter

Legacy
Ma Hunkle - Past, Justice Society
Thomas "Pie-Face" Kalmaku - Coast City
Harvey Bullock - Police, Gotham City
Dr. Jeremiah Arkham - Gotham City
Carol Ferris - Coast City, Extreme Justice
Jimmy Olson - Reporter, Metropolis

Marvel Bystanders
Jarvis - Avengers, Mighty Avengers
Henry Peter Gyrich - Avengers, Spy
Mary Jane Watson-Parker - Celebrity
J. Jonah Jameson - Reporter
Alicia Masters - None
Betty Ross-Banner - None
Foggy Nelson - None
Deli Worker - None
Professor - None
Movie Star - Celebrity
Reporter - Reporter
Poltician - None

Mutant Mayhem
Aunt May - None
Ben Urich - Reporter
Flash Thompson - Teen
Franklin Richards - Fantastic Four
Gwen Stacy - Teen
Kong - Teen

Mutations and Monsters
Val Cooper - X-factor, Freedom Force, Spy
Lila Cheney - Celebrity
Swarm - Animal
Jarella - Ruler
Amadeus Cho - Teen
Native Warrior - Warrior
Janet Pym - Monster

Origin
Amanda Waller - Checkmate, Suicide Squad
Legionnaire - Legion of Superheroes, Future
Mister Tawky Tawny - Animal, Fawcett City
Dane Dorrance - None
President Horne - Ruler
Sarge Steel - Detective, Spy
Marvin and Wendy - Teen Titans

Sinister
Jamie Madrox - X-factor
Turk Barrett - None
Mary Jane Watson-Parker - Celebrity
Sgt. Tork - ?
Lockheed - X-men, Excalibur, S.W.O.R.D.
Dallas Riordan - Police, Thunderbolts, V Battalion
Sin-Eater - S.H.I.E.L.D., Police

Supernova
Rick Jones - Avengers, Excelsior
Space Phantom - None
Jane Foster - None
"Pug" Pugliese - None
Shalla-Bal - None
Forbush Man - None
Thor, Frog of Thunder - Deity, Asguardian

[TheInkTank]

*snip*

The model we are suggesting is that they should not be counted toward the theme team for satisfying the requirements, but they could be on the team without breaking the theme.

For example, if you have five X-Factor members and 7 points left over, you should be able to add a Jamie Madrox bystander without breaking your theme. However, the bystander should not count as a 6th member of the team, giving you a second PC bonus and a +6 to map choice roll. (This is where it could become abusable.)

Likewise, if you have two X-Factor members, adding a Jamie Madrox bystander should not count as the third member of the team in order to earn the theme team bonus.

Ah, ok then. I see what you are saying.

Yea, I'm for whatever ruling alows POGs on a team, without breaking the theme bonosus or making them abusable. I had assumed not having keywords and leaving them neutral would be the way to go, but this makes sense.

And it does enforce a certain level of "themyness" to need to put a keyword POG on the team that matches (i.e. the Jamie Madrox example) but not allow "POG fillers" like a cheap Franklin Richards or HERBIE just to soak up those last 2 or 4 points (unless it's a Fantastic 4 team, obvously).

[Kon`El]

Exactly. It neither helps nor hurts your theme.
So I was bored and sat down to think IF they had Keywords what should they have?
Here is my list.

What really brings home the need for this change in the rules is how many of those pogs would have Team keywords.

I feel silly trying to field the shadowpact without Detective Chimp. :(

[zero_cochrane]

NO DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's all we would need for people to make a 300 point team with an uber powerful character and 2 pogs to complete the theme. Warbound would be an even bigger problem!Warbound is a non-issue. Every bystander in the game is too cheap to be useful in a Warbound team; they need to be at least half the cost of the other character. The most expensive bystanders are 13-15 points, so they couldn't take tokens for any character above 26-30 points. It's a non-issue.

Personally, I'm also going with the "bystanders don't get keywords but don't invalidate thematic team bonuses either" approach. Aside from the potential abuse of 4-point characters granting thematic team bonuses, it would be problematic to keep track of all the keywords. We wouldn't just need a new keyword list for past expansions, we'd need them for every future expansion too - because there really isn't any more room to fit keyword information on a bystander card.

But if bystanders did have keywords...

Here is my list. The few characters I don't know are marked with an ? so suggestions would be nice.
Duane Freeman - ?Should have Avengers (he was their liason).

Invincible
William Clockwell - NoneProbably Teen.

Mera - AtlantisAdd Ruler.
Joe Chill - NoneAdd Gotham City.
Alicia Masters - NoneMaybe add Fantastic Four (it shouldn't break theme for a longstanding gilfriend of the Thing and the Human Torch to be on a Fantastic Four team).
Professor - NoneAdd Scientist.
Poltician - NoneAdd Politician. :p

Franklin Richards - Fantastic FourAdd Kid.
President Horne - RulerChange Ruler to Politician.
Jamie Madrox - X-factorMaybe add Fallen Angels.

[marosama1234]

i believe pogs should have keywords. Kat Farrel is a reporter, Native warrior is a warrior, warbound, soldier, ken hale a animal, etc.

[Darth Sabre]

I would say yes, with stipuloations: NO GENERIC TERMS.

Only ones like Doug Ramsey, who was part of a team should have them.

[kang]

I think certain ones would have keywords....example:

Lois Lane: Metropolis
Detective Chimp: Shadowpact
Alfred: Gotham City
Jarvis: Avengers

and etc...etc