Ahem... RAHRGH!

[yoshifan823]

I went in to my first mafia game on the realms, and saw a horrible sight. The day was already over. And, as the clincher, it was a no lynch. It's just not good for the town to no lynch, and I'll tell you why.

Chance of finding mafia if random person is lynched: 1/X, where X is the number of players in the game.

Chance of finding mafia if there is no lynch: 0, because everyone is still alive.

Also, and I know this is coming, but, sure a townie may die, but that will give you more basis for lynching in the future, by giving a voting pattern. If you get lucky, and manage to kill a scum, you can find who didn't vote for them, and push some suspicion on to them, and if you kill a townie, you look for people who push conversation on to them when someone else is mentioned. A no lynch will just give the mafia a free kill, with no way to help, or hurt, anyone's case, which will harm townies in the long run.

Just my two cents, feel free to comment, congratulate, yell, whatever, I just wanna see what you feel.

[JackAssterson]

Ok.

Day 1

Vote: yoshifan

:p :grin:

[Uknown352]

I agree as JackA's logic can't be denied.

Vote:Lynch YoshiFan

[Space Jawa]

I think he just wants the Mafia to have one less person to worry about. Sounds awfully suspicious to me.

Vote: YoshiFan

[The BoyBlunder]

Vote: No Lynch

[The BoyBlunder]

I mean...

Vote: YoshiFan

[yoshifan823]

See, now this is why I didn't post this in a game.

[The BoyBlunder]

See, now this is why I didn't post this in a game.
We're just messing with you.

We always vote no lynch on the first day. Its just what we do. It may seem like a random lynch, but nothing is truly random. No one has information, and if you pick someone at random, the question becomes why? It all begets unpleasantness. No Lynch may lead to a 0/0 chance of getting a mafia, but the chances at getting a mafia vs a townie arn't even 50/50. We have a much better chance at hurting ourselves, and most don't like the risk. If our "random" target is a townie, sure they can roleclaim, but that just gives the mafia a target. There is very little to gain by random lynching on day one.

[Thawmus]

The answer to your query is simple.


The games are invariably slanted toward the townies. It's just always been that way. Some mods have tried to balance it out better, and few have succeeded. With detailed writeups and every townie having an ability, it's just damn hard for mafia to win these things.

And, as a result, the need to lynch people randomly is just not understood here, at all. I feel your pain, I really do. But in the end of your game, the town is going to win.

[JackAssterson]

Bottom line: I will happily day 1 lynch anyone who volunteers to be day 1 lynched.

[Thawmus]

Bottom line: I will happily day 1 lynch anyone who volunteers to be day 1 lynched.

*makes note to self for future Jester roles...* :noid:

[JackAssterson]

*makes note to self for future Jester roles...* :noid:

I stopped caring about Jesters loooong ago. :p

[Thawmus]

I stopped caring about Jesters loooong ago. :p

Another problem I've had with mafia games. Useless roles that nobody fears.

I mean, the Jester is supposed to be something to look out for. Instead it's "Meh, we can share the win, that's fine." :ermm:

[Melkhor]

Another problem I've had with mafia games. Useless roles that nobody fears.

I mean, the Jester is supposed to be something to look out for. Instead it's "Meh, we can share the win, that's fine." :ermm:

Actually a much more accurate describtion would be: "Horrible role that everybody hates and no-one wants to include in a game ever again" ;)

[sstralkowski]

The answer to your query is simple.


The games are invariably slanted toward the townies. It's just always been that way. Some mods have tried to balance it out better, and few have succeeded. With detailed writeups and every townie having an ability, it's just damn hard for mafia to win these things.

And, as a result, the need to lynch people randomly is just not understood here, at all. I feel your pain, I really do. But in the end of your game, the town is going to win.

Hey man, not all games are landslide townie victories. From the ones I've run, these were the results:

Wild West: 1 townie wins
Star Trek: 4 townies win
Sesame Street: 4 townies win
Transformers: 4 townies win (but only because the mafia was exposed and didn't feel like going through the motions only to lose 2 days later) and the mafia was Sooooo close to a win.

Did the town win every time? Yep. Was it darn close and actually had something to do with luck and skill every time? Yep. It doesn't really matter who wins so long as the game is good and close.

[sstralkowski]

Actually a much more accurate describtion would be: "Horrible role that everybody hates and no-one wants to include in a game ever again" ;)

I agree 100%. Hate that role.

[Thawmus]

Hey man, not all games are landslide townie victories. From the ones I've run, these were the results:

Wild West: 1 townie wins
Star Trek: 4 townies win
Sesame Street: 4 townies win
Transformers: 4 townies win (but only because the mafia was exposed and didn't feel like going through the motions only to lose 2 days later) and the mafia was Sooooo close to a win.

Did the town win every time? Yep. Was it darn close and actually had something to do with luck and skill every time? Yep. It doesn't really matter who wins so long as the game is good and close.

Note the "Few who were successful". ;)

You're actually the first person I thought of when I wrote that. I know you spend more time than anyone on balancing out your games. I wish that was mirrored more.

Rokk, Peers, Jacin, TMNT99, and ABF all have run some very balanced games, as well. Unfortunately, that doesn't amount for even 1/4 of the games in this forum.

Of the 5 games I've been in since coming out of retirement, I've noticed some rather disturbing changes to the way these games are handled, that I'm not too fond of. And maybe a suggestion thread should be underway, but I'm going to wait until at least one of them is done before I do that. But yeah, a lot of the problems I see just hamper the mafia's ability to play. And I don't think it's all the mod's fault, either. But, that's all for another thread.

[Melkhor]

Note the "Few who were successful". ;)

You're actually the first person I thought of when I wrote that. I know you spend more time than anyone on balancing out your games. I wish that was mirrored more.

Rokk, Peers, Jacin, TMNT99, and ABF all have run some very balanced games, as well. Unfortunately, that doesn't amount for even 1/4 of the games in this forum.

Of the 5 games I've been in since coming out of retirement, I've noticed some rather disturbing changes to the way these games are handled, that I'm not too fond of. And maybe a suggestion thread should be underway, but I'm going to wait until at least one of them is done before I do that. But yeah, a lot of the problems I see just hamper the mafia's ability to play. And I don't think it's all the mod's fault, either. But, that's all for another thread.

*cough* Hey, what am I, chopped liver? :p

[Thawmus]

*cough* Hey, what am I, chopped liver? :p

Which game did you run? :confused:

You have to remember, that stuff was ages ago.... :ermm:

[sstralkowski]

Note the "Few who were successful". ;)

You're actually the first person I thought of when I wrote that. I know you spend more time than anyone on balancing out your games. I wish that was mirrored more.

Rokk, Peers, Jacin, TMNT99, and ABF all have run some very balanced games, as well. Unfortunately, that doesn't amount for even 1/4 of the games in this forum.

Of the 5 games I've been in since coming out of retirement, I've noticed some rather disturbing changes to the way these games are handled, that I'm not too fond of. And maybe a suggestion thread should be underway, but I'm going to wait until at least one of them is done before I do that. But yeah, a lot of the problems I see just hamper the mafia's ability to play. And I don't think it's all the mod's fault, either. But, that's all for another thread.

It's nice to know that the effort doesn't go unnoticed. :classic:

[Melkhor]

Which game did you run? :confused:

You have to remember, that stuff was ages ago.... :ermm:

That you participated in?

Mutant Massacre as I recall.

I also ran Escape from Hell and Last Stand of the Legion but you weren't around for those.

[Thawmus]

That you participated in?

Mutant Massacre as I recall.

I also ran Escape from Hell and Last Stand of the Legion but you weren't around for those.

Well, I got killed right away in that one. I don't remember what the outcome was. I got killed early in so many games around that time, that I stopped watching for the endings... :ermm:

[Melkhor]

Well, I got killed right away in that one. I don't remember what the outcome was. I got killed early in so many games around that time, that I stopped watching for the endings... :ermm:

The Horsemen of Apocalypse (Angel, Sabretooth, Annalee and Malice/Callisto) won :)

[Amora's_best_friend]

What if you lynch a doctor?

Or lynch a princess? Or a cop?

What if you get close to lynching the doctor, and they roleclaim?

Realistically it's funnier biding your time.

[jsoccerdude]

MMPR was a landslide mafia--didn't lose a single member.

[Truffle Shuffle]

Note the "Few who were successful". ;)

You're actually the first person I thought of when I wrote that. I know you spend more time than anyone on balancing out your games. I wish that was mirrored more.

Rokk, Peers, Jacin, TMNT99, and ABF all have run some very balanced games, as well. Unfortunately, that doesn't amount for even 1/4 of the games in this forum.

Of the 5 games I've been in since coming out of retirement, I've noticed some rather disturbing changes to the way these games are handled, that I'm not too fond of. And maybe a suggestion thread should be underway, but I'm going to wait until at least one of them is done before I do that. But yeah, a lot of the problems I see just hamper the mafia's ability to play. And I don't think it's all the mod's fault, either. But, that's all for another thread.

I would seriously like hear your opinions Thawmus. Every little bit of information helps in running a game. I have my first coming up at the end of this month. Stan helped with balancing, but other people's input is always good.

[Truffle Shuffle]

Oh and MSU and Magnito have run some good games.

[sstralkowski]

MMPR was a landslide mafia--didn't lose a single member.


MMPR? ..........

[Melkhor]

MMPR? ..........

Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers I believe :)

[sstralkowski]

With all the experienced mods around, I wonder why more first-timers aren't choosing a mentor.

Also, with all these ladnslide victories, is there really any point in keeping track of how many wins anyone has? I mean it would seem it's just a matter of playing in the most games and getting lucky enough to be asigned townie anymore.

[sstralkowski]

Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers I believe :)


Good call...

[jsoccerdude]

Yeah--sorry about that.

Scrubs was my first mafia, and it was waaay too easy for the town.

So I messed with the way I created roles/how roles worked for Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, and it ended up being a total mafia landslide win, because the town's info gatherers didn't ever target anyone, and the random lynches never worked out for the town.

So I think I've found a good middle ground for 80's Movie, which I'm hoping to start next week if I can get the players(heck, I'd settle for just two more).

[sstralkowski]

Yeah--sorry about that.

Scrubs was my first mafia, and it was waaay too easy for the town.

So I messed with the way I created roles/how roles worked for Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, and it ended up being a total mafia landslide win, because the town's info gatherers didn't ever target anyone, and the random lynches never worked out for the town.

So I think I've found a good middle ground for 80's Movie, which I'm hoping to start next week if I can get the players(heck, I'd settle for just two more).

The fact that you went from a townie win to a mafia win shows that you're attempting to correct the problems. That's an excellent sign. I thought you emant that it was another townie landslide.

[JackAssterson]

because the town's info gatherers didn't ever target anyone,

Do you mean they never targeted a Mafia member or they literally didn't play?

[Thawmus]

I would seriously like hear your opinions Thawmus. Every little bit of information helps in running a game. I have my first coming up at the end of this month. Stan helped with balancing, but other people's input is always good.

Well.....without saying too much, because I'd like to cite examples from some games I'm in, but they haven't finished yet....

Writeups, and townie powers.

I never really liked every townie having a power. But that's the way it is. It's been that way for a long time. There's a few games that aren't like that, and they generally get townies LYNCHED for it, just because it's so friggin' unbelievable that anyone would get a vanilla role. And what's really SAD is that a lot of players don't know how to play with one. I mean, really, they don't know what to do with a vanilla role. When, frankly, there's a lot that can still be done during the day phase.

Personally, I LIKE IT when I get vanilla, but I think everyone knows by now that I'm utterly insane to begin with. You can't ever take that away from me. But I'd be interested to see a game with only 7 or 8 townies that have real night actions. If even that many. If for no other reason than to teach folks how to play the game with no information. Because that's the biggest blunder to the game, as I can see it. Nobody knows how to play if there's no information. Nobody wants to lynch if there's no information. Nobody wants to do much of anything, if there's no information. And...well.....kinda the point of Mafia is to do things without any information :confused:

I mean, I guess I don't understand why everyone is so pent up about lynching a townie. But at the same time, I do understand. Every freakin' townie has a valuable ability, outside of just a vote. So nobody dares get rid of them, because they'll have rid themselves of another game-breaking ability in the employ of the town. And it shouldn't be that way. Players should feel empowered to discuss lynching people, without information. That's where all the bluffing, lying, distraction, and strategy comes into the game. The game as I currently see it, lacks a great deal of this. Only the most intellectual players have been able to duck under the radar in this game. And THAT's why those same players are constantly getting targeted in the early game by cops, trackers, and serial killers. Because with them out of the way, the game is all just a matter of chance. Sit on our butts and hope that the cop gets lucky before he dies. I don't know why people think that's fun. I saw several games completely stall out this week because of that. Like I said before, this isn't all the mod's fault. The players on this forum have gotten considerably spoiled by all these special abilities. They don't really know how to play the game anymore. And it's my belief that if a lot of them TRIED, they'd find out that it's still a lot of fun. :ermm:

I've seen Magnito's thread at the bottom of this forum, and I think he brought up some great points, that were reflected by others. Mafias are just stacked against on here. They're outnumbered, they compete against Mason teams that almost comprise of as many members as they do, they constantly have to deal with more than one roleblocker, and the town has umpteen different ways of identifying them.

And those ways are multiplied when it comes to writeups. I am very very very sick and tired of seeing a roleblocker, or mind controller, or misdirector, identify a mafia member, simply because they recognize their own character in the writeup, interacting with their target. These roles are not Cops. They are not Trackers. They should not reap the benefits of Cops or Trackers. STOP PUTTING THIS CARP IN THE WRITEUPS!!! :angry:

That's all I'm going to say for the moment. I'll cite examples when some of these games are done. And no, my arguments here do not necessarily mean that I'm mafia in any of my current games. I just like game balance THAT MUCH. And I don't like it when it's a freakin' cakewalk, and one side has no chance from the get-go. Which is what I see a lot of, lately. And it'd be great if we could find a way to start rehabilitating players so that they could grow a pair and take a shot in the dark every once in a while. These stalled out games where nobody wants to do anything because there isn't any info? The townies usually still win! :ermm: How's that for freakin' stacked???




Truffle, if Sstral's been helping you balance your game, then I doubt you'll have problems. I'll say that much right now. ;)

And for the mods whose games I'm currently in: This may or may not be a reflection of your game. Wait until your game is over, and we'll discuss it then. My goal here is to give critique and suggestions so that we can improve these games, not sit here and bash mods and players.

I understand the plight of the OP. It seems to me that he's probably an experienced mafia player, and he's just disturbed at how we play Mafia here. And I have to agree with him.

[JackAssterson]

I understand the plight of the OP. It seems to me that he's probably an experienced mafia player, and he's just disturbed at how we play Mafia here. And I have to agree with him.

Again, if anyone wishes to volunteer to be the first day lynch, I will happily vote for them.

I just don't really see the problem with a no lynch first day. :ermm:

I understand the arguments for it, but gosh, I'm not going to eliminate someone before they even get a chance to possibly send in one pm.

You do make some good points in the earlier post, though.

[Thawmus]

Again, if anyone wishes to volunteer to be the first day lynch, I will happily vote for them.

I just don't really see the problem with a no lynch first day. :ermm:

I understand the arguments for it, but gosh, I'm not going to eliminate someone before they even get a chance to possibly send in one pm.

That's exactly my point, Jack.

Because it's so stacked against the Mafia, the need to lynch on the first day isn't there. And because so many people have umpteen ways of identifying the people that NEED lynching, it's tactically BETTER to not lynch on the first day.

That's ridiculous, when you get down to it. The town is so utterly successful and powerful in these games that it's a tactical blunder to lynch anyone randomly.

[JackAssterson]

That's ridiculous, when you get down to it. The town is so utterly successful and powerful in these games that it's a tactical blunder to lynch anyone randomly.

True enough. I've got Simpsons on the back burner because I've been trying to solve two problems before launch:

1. A small number of players gets targeted far more than the others

2. The town tends to blow the Mafia out of the water/be completely ineffectual when they dont have a cop ("Does anybody have anything?")

We're pretty much on the same page.

[Shadow40]

With all the experienced mods around, I wonder why more first-timers aren't choosing a mentor.

Also, with all these ladnslide victories, is there really any point in keeping track of how many wins anyone has? I mean it would seem it's just a matter of playing in the most games and getting lucky enough to be asigned townie anymore.

I did have a mentor, but he can't help me for a while and I'm not going to bug him.

[Thawmus]

True enough. I've got Simpsons on the back burner because I've been trying to solve two problems before launch:

1. A small number of players gets targeted far more than the others

2. The town tends to blow the Mafia out of the water/be completely ineffectual when they dont have a cop ("Does anybody have anything?")

We're pretty much on the same page.

Has anyone ever tried a completely non-themed mafia game on here, yet?


Because I'm itching to try it. I might be helping Turtle with his Lost mafia game, but if it turns out that I'm un-needed, I might give that a try.

It'd be the easiest frickin' thing in the world to run, too. Everyone would be themselves, and the writeups would be very simple.

And there'd be so much vanilla you'd think you were on the Got Milk website.

[The BoyBlunder]

I think I have a pretty good balence in 52. But only time will tell.


I think I might get me game up and running today.

Hmmmmm....

[sstralkowski]

Well.....

*snip*

And I have to agree with him.

I have to totally agree. Our similar playstyles not with standing, I admire how Thawmus isn't afraid to get in there during a day phase and mix it up to see if he can get someone to reveal something. Lobstrosity has expressed the same initiative, but has to polish his skills a bit.

In conclusion, if you have no info, then get out there and get some. Put pressure on people to reveal things. If you accidentally lynch a townie, then you know you can trust the info they've given. And that's valuable intel in and of itself.

[jsoccerdude]

Do you mean they never targeted a Mafia member or they literally didn't play?

One didn't ever target a mafia member, and one never targeted anyone. Plus, it was another one of those "Rokk's evil but convinces everyone he's townie even without a roleclaim" games. Heh.

And thanks Stan. I try.

[sstralkowski]

Again, if anyone wishes to volunteer to be the first day lynch, I will happily vote for them.

I just don't really see the problem with a no lynch first day. :ermm:

I understand the arguments for it, but gosh, I'm not going to eliminate someone before they even get a chance to possibly send in one pm.

You do make some good points in the earlier post, though.

You don't even have to lynch someone the first day, just don't end the day phase in 10 seconds with an "Oh well, no info. Let's go to night phase." You'd be surprised what you can find out on day 1 by leaning on people.

If you accidentally make the cop, roleclaim, then protect him. It's better than the doc possibly protecting a mafia member. If you make the doc roleclaim, then use a tracker of some sort to try and see who kills him. People just need to pay attention and read between the lines.

FYI, this was not directed at you specifically, Jack.

[sstralkowski]

I did have a mentor, but he can't help me for a while and I'm not going to bug him.


That's the exception, not the norm. We all completely understand that situation.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Also, with all these ladnslide victories, is there really any point in keeping track of how many wins anyone has? I mean it would seem it's just a matter of playing in the most games and getting lucky enough to be asigned townie anymore.
I hear you there. :laugh:

I've had more than one conversation about certain people that have like 10 wins mainly by having been townie and winning by default.

[sstralkowski]

I hear you there. :laugh:

I've had more than one conversation about certain people that have like 10 wins mainly by having been townie and winning by default.


I'd be tempted to cancel any win where a game has more than 5 winners. The problem is, I'm not in charge, and no one has any real reason to listen to some fat bald guy with internet muscles who likes to bully people playing a forum game. :laugh:

[JackAssterson]

/tangent

Sometimes really looking forward to a game and finding out you've been assigned Mafia can be kinda demoralizing in the current environment.

Especially if you KNOW that you'll be copped by Day 3 latest. :p And roleblocked before that.

[sstralkowski]

Has anyone ever tried a completely non-themed mafia game on here, yet?

Wild West was almost generic. I mean it had 7 out of 18 players fitting a theme and the rest were just generic people.

[Shadow40]

I hear you there. :laugh:

I've had more than one conversation about certain people that have like 10 wins mainly by having been townie and winning by default.

I have more than 10 wins and some sweet mafia wins in there. :grin:

[Thawmus]

I'd be tempted to cancel any win where a game has more than 5 winners. The problem is, I'm not in charge, and no one has any real reason to listen to some fat bald guy with internet muscles who likes to bully people playing a forum game. :laugh:

Well thank God I'm a skinny guy with internet muscles who likes to bully people playing a forum game. People will listen to me!!!


Wait....that's not accurate at all....



I have hair, too! :laugh:

[Jackofhearts2005]

I'd be tempted to cancel any win where a game has more than 5 winners. The problem is, I'm not in charge, and no one has any real reason to listen to some fat bald guy with internet muscles who likes to bully people playing a forum game. :laugh:
I think the list would mean more if I removed people who didn't contribute. But then I'd have more than just Magnito bugging me about the win list.

I generally agree with everything Thawmus has said.

[sstralkowski]

/tangent

Sometimes really looking forward to a game and finding out you've been assigned Mafia can be kinda demoralizing in the current environment.

Especially if you KNOW that you'll be copped by Day 3 latest. :p And roleblocked before that.


Try being Storm Shadow and having no night communication with anyone but the mod while attempting not to get yourself lynched for being a "bad" character. That was a nightmare. I give credit for the attempt, but I was seriously frustrated with my role.

[sstralkowski]

Well thank God I'm a skinny guy with internet muscles who likes to bully people playing a forum game. People will listen to me!!!


Wait....that's not accurate at all....



I have hair, too! :laugh:

Rub it in why don't you? :laugh: You really ARE an internet bully.

[Thawmus]

/tangent

Sometimes really looking forward to a game and finding out you've been assigned Mafia can be kinda demoralizing in the current environment.

Especially if you KNOW that you'll be copped by Day 3 latest. :p And roleblocked before that.

Yeah, this is why I've never won as Mafia.

And never will, for that matter.

I don't know how the hell Rokk pulls it off. There was a point where I think he said that some of us were better at the game than he was, and then he started pulling that trick every friggin' game, and we all looked back at him going, "Uh....huh....." :laugh:

[sstralkowski]

I think the list would mean more if I removed people who didn't contribute. But then I'd have more than just Magnito bugging me about the win list.

I generally agree with everything Thawmus has said.


Yeah, but that's a gray area with a subjective definition. 5 winners is cut and dry. No disputes, no whining.

[sstralkowski]

Yeah, but that's a gray area with a subjective definition. 5 winners is cut and dry. No disputes, no whining.

Plus, it'd get people to be less scared to lynch randomly. "Well, it got us one person closer to a win that counts."

[JackAssterson]

I wish Pirates was over so I could talk about it. That was an interesting experience.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Great.

Now I'm all freaking worried that my next game isn't going to be balanced.

I think I'll pm a good mod who isn't in it to double check my roles before I send them out. :p

[Magnito]

I think the list would mean more if I removed people who didn't contribute. But then I'd have more than just Magnito bugging me about the win list.

I generally agree with everything Thawmus has said.
Despite what you think, I kind of agree. Winning is no fun if you don't have to work for it. The best wins come right down to the wire.

The games that get my respect the most are the closest ones where either side could have won.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I wish Pirates was over so I could talk about it. That was an interesting experience.
Oh yeah.

You just know there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes and the writeups are like one paragraph with one action in it.

[Magnito]

Great.

Now I'm all freaking worried that my next game isn't going to be balanced.

I think I'll pm a good mod who isn't in it to double check my roles before I send them out. :p
Having someone look over it is never a bad idea.

[Thawmus]

Great.

Now I'm all freaking worried that my next game isn't going to be balanced.

I think I'll pm a good mod who isn't in it to double check my roles before I send them out. :p


Well, I'm not going to kid myself and think that the whole mafia forum is going to change overnight, just because I had a nice little rant, there. But if it makes people think a little bit more about balancing their games, then that's a small victory for me. :classic:

[Jackofhearts2005]

Winning is no fun if you don't have to work for it. The best wins come right down to the wire.
Oh, I agree 100%.

I'm much more proud of almost winning Wild West than I am for winning Villains United.

I didn't mind dieing in Disney 3 cause I knew I didn't deserve a win.

Probably didn't deserve the win in Elseworlds either.

[JackAssterson]

I'm much more proud of almost winning Wild West than I am for winning Villains United.


In VU I actively tried to foster suspicion against myself for a bit just to liven things up.

Didn't work, but what they hey,

[goodman]

Yeah i do tend to appreciate mafia games when they come down to the wire, Titans actually did although i don't think the town realized that if they hadn't found/killed Trigon he woulda killed them all at the end of the day phase and won, i really loved playing sesamme street even though i lost i was like in the last 5 players, it was awesome being evil and one of the remaining characters :p, same goes for Lost Room, i love being evil and winning being one of the last 2 players standing, it's awesome :classic:

[Magnito]

Well, I'm not going to kid myself and think that the whole mafia forum is going to change overnight, just because I had a nice little rant, there. But if it makes people think a little bit more about balancing their games, then that's a small victory for me. :classic:
If you only knew how much work I put into my last game to make it even...
and its worked. The last 7 players were 3 from one mafia, 1 from the other, 2 town and a neutral.

How the town still one I am still trying to figure out.

[Magnito]

Yeah i do tend to appreciate mafia games when they come down to the wire, Titans actually did although i don't think the town realized that if they hadn't found/killed Trigon he woulda killed them all at the end of the day phase and won, i really loved playing sesamme street even though i lost i was like in the last 5 players, it was awesome being evil and one of the remaining characters :p, same goes for Lost Room, i love being evil and winning being one of the last 2 players standing, it's awesome :classic:
I don't mean any offence to you, but Titans had more then 10 winners. That's not down to the wire in my opinion, no matter what plot device was looming.

[Thawmus]

If you only knew how much work I put into my last game to make it even...
and its worked. The last 7 players were 3 from one mafia, 1 from the other, 2 town and a neutral.

How the town still one I am still trying to figure out.

Well, after seeing that you made your own thread along the same lines, I kinda realized you'd do that. ;)


I'm not of the thinking that I'm alone here, if that's the idea. I've gotten enough acknowledgment from that big long post I just made, that I can at least breathe a sigh of relief that I'm not the only one who has seen this. The rest of you have probably seen it much sooner.

And....the scenario you described IS pretty whacky... :confused:

[goodman]

I know, but it would have ended with all of them winning or losing, seriously they were extremely lucky, i was kinda hoping for less survivors but the mafias weren't the most efficiant, i was slapping my forehead so much when they sent in their pm's, i mean 3 freaking mafias, 2 serial killers, 1 mafia dispands into seperate serial killers and still theres a lack of death :(

[The BoyBlunder]

My proudest wins are are the SK Cleric John Preston in DIY, and as Guy Gardner the recruited mafia member in DC Zombies.

[Jackofhearts2005]

No offense, Goodman, but Titans wasn't exactly balanced (neither was KC, I'll admit. I didn't worry enough about the possibility of both Von Bach and Captain Marvel being removed from the game without having done much killing).

First of all, just about everything appeared in the writeup which made just about everybody essentially a cop.

Second of all, there was like a 8 person quasi mason team behind Ms. Martian.

Thirdly, we got to kill two people every day as long as Rose was alive.

Fourthly, half the town had a percentage chance to avoid night kill.

The whole Trigon thing was a nice threat but if I was part of the Titans Tomorrow or Titans East, I would have been really fed up.

Really, it's that first and fourth thing that killed the mafia. When everybody's a cop and you can't kill anybody, it makes it hella hard to do anything as the mafia.

[goodman]

Yeah :( but i did give all the badguys cool powers too, but my writers flare got the best of me, i couldn't help but write loads in the writeups, i was sorta trying to do it like Melkhors Legion game, but yeah, less Titan ### kicking next time, although i loved writing Deathstroke killing off Nightwing though, it was cool but sad coz Nightwing was fairly overpowered too :classic:

[Thawmus]

No offense, Goodman, but Titans wasn't exactly balanced (neither was KC, I'll admit. I didn't worry enough about the possibility of both Von Bach and Captain Marvel being removed from the game without having done much killing).

First of all, just about everything appeared in the writeup which made just about everybody essentially a cop.

Second of all, there was like a 8 person quasi mason team behind Ms. Martian.

Thirdly, we got to kill two people every day as long as Rose was alive.

Fourthly, half the town had a percentage chance to avoid night kill.

The whole Trigon thing was a nice threat but if I was part of the Titans Tomorrow or Titans East, I would have been really fed up.

Agreed. I was a roleblocker, and I was able to identify 3 mafia members. Despite the success, I was actually pretty angry about that, because I didn't feel it was fair at all to the mafia players. I thought we were going to run out of mafia, and fast.

And despite my death, it turns out I was right. :ermm:

[JackAssterson]

i couldn't help but write loads in the writeups,

I understand that you were going for a rollicking story. :) You just have to remember that folks like me and others aren't so much reading solely for the story as they are squeezing the text for every drop of info they can.

Every lynch garnered from the writeup is a complete freebie for the folks who already have the numbers.

[The BoyBlunder]

Yeah :( but i did give all the badguys cool powers too, but my writers flare got the best of me, i couldn't help but write loads in the writeups, i was sorta trying to do it like Melkhors Legion game, but yeah, less Titan ### kicking next time, although i loved writing Deathstroke killing off Nightwing though, it was cool but sad coz Nightwing was fairly overpowered too :classic:
Thought I killed Nightwing?

[goodman]

Yeah, i need to somehow steer this conversation away from Titan bashing.........hmmmmmmmmmmmm, who likes cheese? :noid:

[Thawmus]

Yeah, i need to somehow steer this conversation away from Titan bashing.........hmmmmmmmmmmmm, who likes cheese? :noid:

Well, I like cheese! I'm currently making 3 cheese tortellini pasta, which will be served with shredded mozz and parm. :laugh:

[JackAssterson]

Well, I like cheese! I'm currently making 3 cheese tortellini pasta, which will be served with shredded mozz and parm. :laugh:

Top it with Lockjaw and five rookie Destinys.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Yeah :( but i did give all the badguys cool powers too, but my writers flare got the best of me, i couldn't help but write loads in the writeups, i was sorta trying to do it like Melkhors Legion game, but yeah, less Titan ### kicking next time, although i loved writing Deathstroke killing off Nightwing though, it was cool but sad coz Nightwing was fairly overpowered too :classic:
You wanna write stories?

Join the RPSC. ;)

[goodman]

You wanna write stories?

Join the RPSC. ;)

I do write stories, I'm studying Imaginative Writing at University


In other words "I write, therfore, I am" :p



Also whats RPSC?

[Thawmus]

Yeah :( but i did give all the badguys cool powers too, but my writers flare got the best of me, i couldn't help but write loads in the writeups, i was sorta trying to do it like Melkhors Legion game, but yeah, less Titan ### kicking next time, although i loved writing Deathstroke killing off Nightwing though, it was cool but sad coz Nightwing was fairly overpowered too :classic:

BTW, I feel for you on this. My DBZ game was horrible for the same reasons. I used to do a lot of writing in my spare time, just for fun. And I couldn't help but give out action-packed writeups.

That's why I need to mod a vanilla game, if I ever do again.

[goodman]

I know, you can't help but write passionately about something you really like, and Teen Titans are my favourite comic characters/heroclix team whenever i get an opportunity to play

[Jackofhearts2005]

Also whats RPSC?
The role playing scenario campaign.

It's an ongoing heroclix campaign on the realms. Everybody has a team and each month they play in a scenario. Every issue has a sizable introduction and epilogue and there are three issues in a story arc. Many players (myself included) write their own intros and all players talk to the editors (Lightsheer for DC, Wakandaman for Marvel) about where they want the story to go.

For example, I run the titans and this month we faced the Doom Patrol who were being controled by Eclipso. Beast Boy and Starfire were knocked out and Cyborg and Nightwing were possessed by Eclipso. Next issue, Hawk, Dove and Arsenal will probably have to go save them.

It's a lot of fun and there are several good teams (Outsiders, Gotham Knights, JSA, Fantastic Four, all the X-Teams but the actual X-Men, etc) that could really use an owner. :)

[goodman]

Hmmmmmm, i shall consider this JoH, seems fun

[Jackofhearts2005]

Have a link. (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164156)

[Amora's_best_friend]

Funny Marvel Mafia 4 should be so funny.

More neutrals than you shake a stick at.

[goodman]

Lol, i hope you made more neutrals than townies, i'd laugh if you did

[sstralkowski]

I understand the yearning to write excellent stories, but at a point, it kills the game. Like I said before, try finding a somewhat vague character trait that applies to each character and refer to them as such until you feel the town believes their role claim or they're somehow outed indisputably. They key is to convey an ongoing storyline while not confirming or denying anyone's suspicions. Give it a shot and see how you like it. Or try a generic one like Thawmus suggested and that way no one can link traits to predefined characters and then onto their powers/alignment.

[The BoyBlunder]

Or write a game where everyone is a new character. Can't learn fromt he write-up if you don't know what the hell is going on.

[Thawmus]

Has anyone ever tried a completely non-themed mafia game on here, yet?


Because I'm itching to try it. I might be helping Turtle with his Lost mafia game, but if it turns out that I'm un-needed, I might give that a try.

It'd be the easiest frickin' thing in the world to run, too. Everyone would be themselves, and the writeups would be very simple.

And there'd be so much vanilla you'd think you were on the Got Milk website.

Well, I'm doing it: http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3354526&posted=1#post3354526

[Iron Ham]

Vote: Yoshifan


HE'S A SLOPPY DRESSER!

[Amora's_best_friend]

I think mods have to be more harsh in enforcing the "don't imply you are being mind controlled" rule.

If the person who has been mindcontrolled can just say "So-and-so is smelly, we should lynch them" it basically nerfs a player's power.

In future games I'm modding, if someone can deduce that the player in question is being mind controlled on their posting behaviour alone, the mind controlled player will be modkilled.

[Darkseid Sr.]

I think mods have to be more harsh in enforcing the "don't imply you are being mind controlled" rule.

If the person who has been mindcontrolled can just say "So-and-so is smelly, we should lynch them" it basically nerfs a player's power.

In future games I'm modding, if someone can deduce that the player in question is being mind controlled on their posting behaviour alone, the mind controlled player will be modkilled.

Agreed. Someone who is mind-controlled, realistically, is not going to say "Hey, guys, I'm mind-controlled", he's going to blindly follow whomever has mind-controlled him.

[Darkseid Sr.]

Funny Marvel Mafia 4 should be so funny.

More neutrals than you shake a stick at.

I believe Pirates shall fight you for that honor! :cheeky:

[The BoyBlunder]

Agreed. Someone who is mind-controlled, realistically, is not going to say "Hey, guys, I'm mind-controlled", he's going to blindly follow whomever has mind-controlled him.
I have a lot of sticks, and a lot of determination.

[JackAssterson]

Agreed. Someone who is mind-controlled, realistically, is not going to say "Hey, guys, I'm mind-controlled", he's going to blindly follow whomever has mind-controlled him.

Has anybody actually done that? That should be auto-mod kill.

Of course, figuring out ways to let people know I'm being MC'd without being TOO obvious about it is one of my little joys.

[The BoyBlunder]

Has anybody actually done that? That should be auto-mod kill.

I did. And I was. And I feel bad about the whole thing.

[Space Jawa]

Have a link. (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164156)

I should join that some time when I've got a lot of free time on my hands...

[CarlosMucha]

The Horsemen of Apocalypse (Angel, Sabretooth, Annalee and Malice/Callisto) won :)


yea!!


:grin:

:cheeky: :p

[CarlosMucha]

Well.....without saying too much, because I'd like to cite examples from some games I'm in, but they haven't finished yet....

Writeups, and townie powers.

I never really liked every townie having a power. But that's the way it is. It's been that way for a long time. There's a few games that aren't like that, and they generally get townies LYNCHED for it, just because it's so friggin' unbelievable that anyone would get a vanilla role. And what's really SAD is that a lot of players don't know how to play with one. I mean, really, they don't know what to do with a vanilla role. When, frankly, there's a lot that can still be done during the day phase.

Personally, I LIKE IT when I get vanilla, but I think everyone knows by now that I'm utterly insane to begin with. You can't ever take that away from me. But I'd be interested to see a game with only 7 or 8 townies that have real night actions. If even that many. If for no other reason than to teach folks how to play the game with no information. Because that's the biggest blunder to the game, as I can see it. Nobody knows how to play if there's no information. Nobody wants to lynch if there's no information. Nobody wants to do much of anything, if there's no information. And...well.....kinda the point of Mafia is to do things without any information :confused:

I mean, I guess I don't understand why everyone is so pent up about lynching a townie. But at the same time, I do understand. Every freakin' townie has a valuable ability, outside of just a vote. So nobody dares get rid of them, because they'll have rid themselves of another game-breaking ability in the employ of the town. And it shouldn't be that way. Players should feel empowered to discuss lynching people, without information. That's where all the bluffing, lying, distraction, and strategy comes into the game. The game as I currently see it, lacks a great deal of this. Only the most intellectual players have been able to duck under the radar in this game. And THAT's why those same players are constantly getting targeted in the early game by cops, trackers, and serial killers. Because with them out of the way, the game is all just a matter of chance. Sit on our butts and hope that the cop gets lucky before he dies. I don't know why people think that's fun. I saw several games completely stall out this week because of that. Like I said before, this isn't all the mod's fault. The players on this forum have gotten considerably spoiled by all these special abilities. They don't really know how to play the game anymore. And it's my belief that if a lot of them TRIED, they'd find out that it's still a lot of fun. :ermm:

I've seen Magnito's thread at the bottom of this forum, and I think he brought up some great points, that were reflected by others. Mafias are just stacked against on here. They're outnumbered, they compete against Mason teams that almost comprise of as many members as they do, they constantly have to deal with more than one roleblocker, and the town has umpteen different ways of identifying them.

And those ways are multiplied when it comes to writeups. I am very very very sick and tired of seeing a roleblocker, or mind controller, or misdirector, identify a mafia member, simply because they recognize their own character in the writeup, interacting with their target. These roles are not Cops. They are not Trackers. They should not reap the benefits of Cops or Trackers. STOP PUTTING THIS CARP IN THE WRITEUPS!!! :angry:

That's all I'm going to say for the moment. I'll cite examples when some of these games are done. And no, my arguments here do not necessarily mean that I'm mafia in any of my current games. I just like game balance THAT MUCH. And I don't like it when it's a freakin' cakewalk, and one side has no chance from the get-go. Which is what I see a lot of, lately. And it'd be great if we could find a way to start rehabilitating players so that they could grow a pair and take a shot in the dark every once in a while. These stalled out games where nobody wants to do anything because there isn't any info? The townies usually still win! :ermm: How's that for freakin' stacked???




Truffle, if Sstral's been helping you balance your game, then I doubt you'll have problems. I'll say that much right now. ;)

And for the mods whose games I'm currently in: This may or may not be a reflection of your game. Wait until your game is over, and we'll discuss it then. My goal here is to give critique and suggestions so that we can improve these games, not sit here and bash mods and players.

I understand the plight of the OP. It seems to me that he's probably an experienced mafia player, and he's just disturbed at how we play Mafia here. And I have to agree with him.


good post. I have to say that in some day phases town get not lucky and don't have any great info. others days town have info and don't share it. in my games a few times were "instint" lynches. sometimes they get a town, sometimes don't.

[CarlosMucha]

Despite what you think, I kind of agree. Winning is no fun if you don't have to work for it. The best wins come right down to the wire.

The games that get my respect the most are the closest ones where either side could have won.


that is true. I try to make my games in a way hard to win. I can make my games even harder for any side. my only fear is that the actual hard "mystery" to solve in my game is maybe too "hide" and people can be dissapointed in the end.

but soo far people were doing great discover the clues.

In the What If Game the town discover some of the mysteries in good moments.

[CarlosMucha]

I have to say one thing: I hope mods don't be afraid to put new "risky" things in new games. I always try to put new things on my games and I don't start a game without have a absolute new idea o a new kind of power or a new game mechanic or something interesting to look forward.

Small things are good. I begin to put yourtue videos to make everybody's feel a little closer to his characters (or know the characters when a character die).

Personally I like my Vigilante "Hulk" Role. is that kind of role that you know if a player is a "hero" or not. (In that Role if you kill at nights you are inmune to night kills).

I'm also very worrried to show a lot in the write ups. but I do my best to tell the story that I want to tell without show soo much. In the Elseworlds game you may know what character was each one but you don't know in what side were each one. same in the TV Series Game.
But for me is never "just a game" I try to share feelins, and poit of views about a lot of topics in my games. The Elseworlds game have a LOT of that. I personally think that if you try to tell a good story the people enjoy the game more and you get to know better your players and your players know you a little more.

The Galactus Question in my game was a religion question. The Woder Twins were inmigrants. :p. Hal, a adopting father, Magnus let me share about politic topics, the Mutants of Hiroshima about War, the Human Spider was about learn about apariences, Thor was about faith, Baby Hulk, about be a hero or not, etc etc.

I like to have ready a lot of surprises in each one of my games.

[JKLantern]

I think mods have to be more harsh in enforcing the "don't imply you are being mind controlled" rule.

If the person who has been mindcontrolled can just say "So-and-so is smelly, we should lynch them" it basically nerfs a player's power.


I still rue the day I did that...

[tidge]

Now that I've played a few games, my $0.02

I LIKE the effort that GMs go through in writing roles, and writeups (plus all the admin overhead)...but sometimes the writeups turn everybody into a "flavor cop".

I'm sorry I missed the "vanilla" mafia, but I think I'd like to see a more straightforward game of paranoia with fewer roles.

Mind Control, and recruitment away from a beloved faction....this is REALLY hard. I've been recruited to another side and I HATED it. It was so hard to take the game seriously after that point....and I've also been a recruiter that actually had some less than willing recruits. I don't know what the balance is.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I don't know.

I feel like recruits should just roll with it.

Being recruited in Mutant Masscre was incredibly fun.

Sometimes people get recruited and they just stop having fun. They look for a way to get unrecruited and it bugs the hell out of both the recruiter and the mod. I don't understand it.

[CarlosMucha]

I don't know.

I feel like recruits should just roll with it.

Being recruited in Mutant Masscre was incredibly fun.

Sometimes people get recruited and they just stop having fun. They look for a way to get unrecruited and it bugs the hell out of both the recruiter and the mod. I don't understand it.


yep. I feel the same I was recluted in the same team and it was great!

what about the recluted limits? how that should work? what is everybody's opinion?

[The BoyBlunder]

I don't know.

I feel like recruits should just roll with it.

Being recruited in Mutant Masscre was incredibly fun.

Sometimes people get recruited and they just stop having fun. They look for a way to get unrecruited and it bugs the hell out of both the recruiter and the mod. I don't understand it.
I understand it. But only to a degree. When I was recruited into the mafia in DC zombies, it was great. But it was late game, I had no powers, and I had been a confirmed townie.

In DC BYOC, I was recruited night 1, had my super cool power taken away, and was attacked as a mafia member the next day.

So yeah, I can understand when it stops being fun. I had been really looking forward to my role and position in the game, and it was suddenly all taken away from me. I think a big part of it was also that I was given a choice in DC Zombies, and I wasn't in BYOC.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Well, I've never been one to have recruits lose their powers either. :p

OMAC - people I recruited kept their powers

Sabertooth - kept my power when I was recruited

The Top - his minions kept their powers

[kontrol]

Being recruited depends on the context to me.

In Avengers I was recruited and lost what would have been a really cool power for the mafia to have. It took a little of the luster away. I wouldn't actively try to sabotage any recruiter though. Well maybe a little, if it would gain me an advantage on living.

In TMNT, I kept my powers, but as a caveat could screw my recruiter over if I saw fit to do so. Being that I was just a survivor, it didn't matter to me. Though I know I almost gave MSU a heart attack when I voted for a Turtle once. Sure it was after the deadline, but I had to at least appear like I was still on the Foot's side, or at least my own side.

Then there was the time I was inadvertently recruited by my own action in Villains United. The one time I was the first person to do something and it made me an ad-hoc recruiter when all the mafia and original recruiter were removed. It made for a very difficult time at the end.

[Jackofhearts2005]

The whole Psycho Pirate thing was....unfortunate.

How were you recruited in Avengers?

Most fun time being recruted: Wild West Mafia.

I was a suspicious Indian who came up as evil so I didn't mind being recruited into the mafia one bit. Then my mafia mates died quickly and I was more or less a serial killer for about half the game. :grin:

[michiganj24]

Morgan le fey had a slight chance of mind controlling the guy we tried to kill which actually worked three times. We were doing so well up until all those skipped night phases by the time controllers cost us maybe 4-5 kills

Of course I hated when i recruited my kid Kirby in disney. I had the janitor power so I was the hock killer but if I kill my kid first i kill the don instead so i recruit him to find out if he dies I take his place and then first night after I get him he dies so i die instead. That kid was a bugger and a great help to the town
The whole Psycho Pirate thing was....unfortunate.

How were you recruited in Avengers?

Most fun time being recruted: Wild West Mafia.

I was a suspicious Indian who came up as evil so I didn't mind being recruited into the mafia one bit. Then my mafia mates died quickly and I was more or less a serial killer for about half the game. :grin:

[kontrol]

I did have information on Morgan that I thought could eventually lead to my freedom, but it actually didn't.

Morgan was immune to nightkills as long as her original mafia were alive. I played around in my head with betraying her, but never went through with as we were doing quite well, that is until our kills started to dry up.

I was semi recruited in Firefly, but that didn't work out at all since the one thing I could do: Protect Kaylee, was completely nullified by Inara roleblocking me.

[Darkseid Sr.]

I think a big part of it was also that I was given a choice in DC Zombies, and I wasn't in BYOC.

That's how it was in Pirates. You could be bought, but you had the choice, and a little benefit to switching sides.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Morgan le fey had a slight chance of mind controlling the guy we tried to kill which actually worked three times. We were doing so well up until all those skipped night phases by the time controllers cost us maybe 4-5 kills
How many night skips did they have? :confused:

[jsoccerdude]

We went through at least 2, possibly 3 night skips. It was rough, as it was late game, and I personally feel it was a make or break situation.

[The BoyBlunder]

That's how it was in Pirates. You could be bought, but you had the choice, and a little benefit to switching sides.
Forgot about that.

I was a mafia who was recruited to the town. I wanted the mafia to recruit me back, basicly having stolen money from the town, but the mafia killed me instead.

[michiganj24]

We just thought with evil thoughts. We could have done that but you might have let us in on the plan instead of just jumping ship like that with no warning
Forgot about that.

I was a mafia who was recruited to the town. I wanted the mafia to recruit me back, basicly having stolen money from the town, but the mafia killed me instead.

[Jackofhearts2005]

We went through at least 2, possibly 3 night skips. It was rough, as it was late game, and I personally feel it was a make or break situation.
That's so weird.

I've never seen that as more than a one shot power. :ermm:

[michiganj24]

I dont think it was but there was like 4 people with that power
Kang, Immortus, Scarlet Centurion and Rama Tut (or maybe not him)
That's so weird.

I've never seen that as more than a one shot power. :ermm:

[sstralkowski]

I was recruited into the Skrull army in my first ever game. The next day, I threw my leader under the bus to earn me some cred and then rode that cred to the end of the game. It was a blast being trusted completely and getting the townies to lynch each other.

[Space Jawa]

No one considered throwing you under the bus in turn?

[kontrol]

No one considered throwing you under the bus in turn?
Kinda, it was requested in one of the games I was the don in that he be the first target for our hit. We obliged. :)

[Jackofhearts2005]

I was recruited into the Skrull army in my first ever game. The next day, I threw my leader under the bus to earn me some cred and then rode that cred to the end of the game. It was a blast being trusted completely and getting the townies to lynch each other.
It helped that I had copped you day one.

I knew you could be the skrull but couldn't be the mafia so I decided not to use my power on you.

Would have helped if we had lynched Dumas when Jacin told us to. :p

[kontrol]

The thing I remember most about that game was finally having a person to stick like glue to as the doctor. Only to have the Skrull switch targets on me and having him killed on my watch.

[sstralkowski]

The thing I remember most about that game was finally having a person to stick like glue to as the doctor. Only to have the Skrull switch targets on me and having him killed on my watch.


:laugh: That was a really long shot on my part that just happened to pay off. I was cheering like mad when I read it, and then I came on and pretended to be frustrated. That is still one of my favorite games ever.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Oh, that freaking skrull! :laugh:

[tidge]

I think I just suffered another "death by writeup".