Are theme teams still competative?

[Esper3k]

So, with the new upcoming changes to theme teams, will they still be as tournament competative as before?

Hard for me to say, but with the huge downgrade to the BFC ignore benefit, I'm not sure they will be able to compete against the non-theme teams.

Here's the link to the Wizkids article on the changes in case anyone hasn't seen them yet:

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/dc/gameresources.asp?cid=41732

[adamkomar]

Theme teams that rely on BFC manipulation will be hurt by this, yes, but that's always been said about about any rule change that affects a team that relies on any one strategy. Though, I don't know why they're continuing to use "ignore" as it seems to just be an effective cancel. It'll make more people happy than sad.

The changes only make my theme teams better.

[Space Jawa]

Well Darn. And I was enjoying that benefit, too.

[CFGuy]

Well Darn. And I was enjoying that benefit, too.


Yeah, it was an awesome ability. Alas, poor Ignore, I will miss it.

My favorite was to play Krakoa and see my opponent play Ordinary Day. I would Ignore OD, so that I was the only one to get to use Krakoa.

[Phoenix_Icewing]

yeah its just like fliers being able to carry fliers, or pick up along a flight movement. itll be missed, but it wont be game wrecking since its gone. having extra PC/PC on teams without pc'ers, as well as going first/map choice, those will still help immensely, again, without breaking the game. ignoring BFC's... hahaha... i still say it should be as i originally read it- ignore 1 BFC in a tournament. just 1, not one per round.

but thats gone soon, too.. time to abuse it while its here! mwahahhaa

EDIT----------------------------------
OH MY STARS AND GARTERS!!!! ( i should have read that first) They DO get to use it once per tourney! and....

YES! Bystanders will be allowed! and they did it exactly as i hoped! AWESOME!


although the BYE change hurts for odd number tourneys,,, oh well..

[darklogos]

Here is where theme teams got better. True Teams like shield, pd,hydra that have a ton of small cheap figures just got a boost becuase they gained 1 or at max 3 more probs then they had before. Groups that could field a decent amount of figures but didn't have support got a lot better. Mid sized teams that are between 3-4 figures got hurt. These teams often times more comic accuarate sadly.

Bystandards are where things will get nasty because now those theme teams that need cast off peices will go back to pogs. Joe chill all of sudden became everyone's mentor.

I think we finally found balance to the force where non-theme teams will see the light of day again. Those teams with actual thematic apeal will be used.

I think we are moving in a postive direction.

[probabilitylongshot]

I think the new rules will add to the game. Thanks to the old rules to theme teams I have yet to play a game with a BFC active. The always seem to be ignored by everyone. So much so nobody at my venue even plays the anymore. I feel the new rules will bing the BFC back into the game. It also makes it more viable to play a non theme team.

[AutobotBubbs]

yeah that Bye thing stinks.... and the 'kill points only' too...

and the return to 'cancel' rather than 'ignore' means I won't play Malice as much as I did

Pog thing IS good though. I can think of someone who's zombie team will be glad to hear that.

[CFGuy]

I think the new rules will add to the game. Thanks to the old rules to theme teams I have yet to play a game with a BFC active. The always seem to be ignored by everyone. So much so nobody at my venue even plays the anymore. I feel the new rules will bing the BFC back into the game. It also makes it more viable to play a non theme team.

I don't see how you could have played a game with no BFC active. With the current rules, if both players played a BFC, a theme team could Ignore one of them. That would still leave the other one active.
Even if both players selected a different BFC to ignore, there would still be one active BFC for each player.
At my Saturday venue, BFC usage actually went up. Once the other guys saw how I was playing a BFC and then ignoring it, they realized that they needed to play a BFC as well. They learned quickly to play a BFC that would hurt my team so I had to choose between ignoring their BFC or mine.

With the new rules they can go back to not playing any BFCs knowing that if I play a BFC that could hurt a team, and then I ignore it, it is out for both of us.

[Metal]

The new scoring system is something I have been wanting to see for a long time now.

As for the Theme Team benefits: I still say they get too much of a boost. 1 PC for every 2 characters on a team is a little much and the ability to ignore a BFC should be dropped all together. I think Wizkids wanted theme teams to be used to add flavor and fun not to create an unbalanced environment. I do however agree that Bystanders should have the rights they have finally been given.

[Esper3k]

I'm on the fence now as to how competative theme teams are compared to nontheme teams.

I think it will have to be seen in practice and after much testing, but I am now leaning towards theme teams being weaker than nontheme teams now.

Ignoring BFCs
Yes, the ignoring BFC ability is now in a way more powerful as now you can hit things like Wasteland, Krakoa, Damage Control and actually ignore (but really OD/Cancel) them. However, this comes at the cost of being able to hurt your opponent with a BFC and ignoring it. Even worse, because you can only use it once per tournament now, the biggest defensive benefit of the ability is now gone (that you could protect yourself from BFCs every game).

Generic/Nongeneric Keywords
I'm assuming that the nongeneric keywords no longer have the minimum 3 figures/team requirement (although it's not explicitly stated in the article) since it would make that 1 figure / 150 point benefit worthless for anything under a 450 point game. I think it'll be nice for many keywords, but ultimately not anything that will really shake things up.

Extra Probability Control
While this is a nice extra benefit, I don't believe this will outweigh the loss of being able to ignore a BFC every game. This does become a lot nicer being able to give PC to bystanders though.

Bystanders
This is what I feel is the greatest new benefit for theme teams. Now, mastermind pieces such as the Leader have become much nastier now that they have plenty of fodder to MM onto. Plus, because you can give the bystanders probability control, that can actually let them do something other than sit around (and not put precious action tokens on your hitters). I predict you're going to see many more bystanders on theme teams now just to take advantage of the probability control element.

Just my $.02

[admironheart]

Generic/Nongeneric Keywords
This ONLY aids specific keyword teams in playing big point pieces. It does little else....So we will see more Supermen teams with extra bonuses. Blah...I like to play swarm teams and the big boyz have enough advantage with 18 Impervious, HSS and 5+ Damage output. This is a non-issue except to make the big boyz more dominant in a theme team.

Extra Probability Control
The extra PC is ok...but nowhere near as good as having cheap support, outwit, perplex, etc...And now you get 1 or 2 more additional PCs on average. Not as huge as people always make it out to be. Basically you are getting maybe 1 extra hit in or preventing 1 hit from your opponent. Sure it can be good.....but overcoming 1 attack roll is not the end of all bonuses.

Bystanders

This I see as the new cheese. I am betting on seeing 3 or more bystanders on most generic keyword teams now. They will play Malice even more as they have cheap fodder and will IGNORE the other players Ordinary Day to try to nerf single piece teams like Thanos or Apocalypse.

wes

[houdinimachine]

Yeah, it was an awesome ability. Alas, poor Ignore, I will miss it.

My favorite was to play Krakoa and see my opponent play Ordinary Day. I would Ignore OD, so that I was the only one to get to use Krakoa.


Has it been ruled in the judge forums that it used to work like this? My judge, I think rightly, ruled that since Ordinary Day says CANCEL, that as long as one player isn't ignoring it, the other BFC is canceled entirely for everyone.

[MattPetersen]

Theme teams are STILL competitive just not as focused as they used to be. Now someone does not really HAVE to fear not building a theme team because the ignore function is set to just one round and that to me is a good thing. In other words now non theme team players can play what they want again because the ignore function is not so drastic.

I also like the extra Probability and the 150 points for specific TEAMS standard that was set up. I think this will actually cause MORE theme teams to be played!!

[doctor_x]

I hate the majority of bfc's, so being able to totally play a match without having to remember to use it or avoid it is fine by me.

I see theme teams getting even more of a boost now by allowing bystander pogs.

Most pogs suck but some are really good or are very thematic.

And now that pogs can take the tokens for using the theme probs-this will free up the 3d figs to be more effective.

So for me, theme is totally the way to go now during tourney's.

[CFGuy]

Has it been ruled in the judge forums that it used to work like this? My judge, I think rightly, ruled that since Ordinary Day says CANCEL, that as long as one player isn't ignoring it, the other BFC is canceled entirely for everyone.

I don't remember what thread it was in now. It was several weeks ago and there are just too many new threads added each day to every find them again. Especially when searching for generic words like ordinary or day.

But here is how I would have explained it. OD says cancel, however, on my turn, I am using the theme team bounus and Ignoring OD. Therefore, on my turn it is the same as if OD was never played. But on my opponents turn then both BFCs are in effect, therefore OD cancels Karoka.

It's no different than if I had played Malice and my opponent had played OD. If I foolishly choose to ignore OD then on my turn, OD would not be in play and I would get hit with Malice damage. On my opponent's turn both BFCs are in effect, so his OD would stop Malice and he would take no damage.


Edit: Course, this is all a moot point, as the new rules have changed the way a theme team works with ignoring a BFC.

[Esper3k]

I don't remember what thread it was in now. It was several weeks ago and there are just too many new threads added each day to every find them again. Especially when searching for generic words like ordinary or day.

But here is how I would have explained it. OD says cancel, however, on my turn, I am using the theme team bounus and Ignoring OD. Therefore, on my turn it is the same as if OD was never played. But on my opponents turn then both BFCs are in effect, therefore OD cancels Karoka.

It's no different than if I had played Malice and my opponent had played OD. If I foolishly choose to ignore OD then on my turn, OD would not be in play and I would get hit with Malice damage. On my opponent's turn both BFCs are in effect, so his OD would stop Malice and he would take no damage.


Edit: Course, this is all a moot point, as the new rules have changed the way a theme team works with ignoring a BFC.

Yes, according to the previous FAQ, if Team A plays Ordinary Day and Team B ignores Ordinary Day, it is treated as if Team A ignored Team B's BFC.

However, with the new change, you might as well just say theme teams get an Ordinary Day they can use once a tournament (even though it says ignore, it's pretty much the same thing).

[admironheart]

However, with the new change, you might as well just say theme teams get an Ordinary Day they can use once a tournament (even though it says ignore, it's pretty much the same thing).

NO IT IS NOT!!!

Example:
Lets say you have a swarm keyword team of Shield grunts and your opponent plays a Feated Apocalypse.

you play the Malice BFC and he plays Ordinary Day BFC.

In the old way as illustrated above....the Malice Damage could NEVER affect him.

The NEW way in the same scenario would be for you to IGNORE the ordinary day. {it does not apply to either team} Thus Malice is in play for BOTH teams.....this is waaaaaay huge in certain situations....and permits the NERFING of Ordinary Day....which has NEVER been possible before.

It is like OD in any other situation.....except it can KILL ordinary day too!!!

It is a HUGE difference!!

Now your swarm team can take a click here and there from Malice ...while Apocalypse will slowly wither from Malice!!!:laugh: :laugh:

wes

[adamkomar]

It's still like Ordinary Day. It's simply played after BFCs have been played.

[Phoenix_Icewing]

It's still like Ordinary Day. It's simply played after BFCs have been played.
which adds pre-game tactics. bring a BFC that neither of you want to play under, but wouldnt cripple your team of course, and see if he's willing to suffer more than you, or waste his 1 ignore on it. or if he brings something worse to the table, will you suffer it because you dont know what the other guys are gonna be bringing when they play you? it definately makes it better than building a theme team just to ignore your opponents BFC and using 2 that wouldnt affect you at all.

[Esper3k]

NO IT IS NOT!!!

Example:
Lets say you have a swarm keyword team of Shield grunts and your opponent plays a Feated Apocalypse.

you play the Malice BFC and he plays Ordinary Day BFC.

In the old way as illustrated above....the Malice Damage could NEVER affect him.

The NEW way in the same scenario would be for you to IGNORE the ordinary day. {it does not apply to either team} Thus Malice is in play for BOTH teams.....this is waaaaaay huge in certain situations....and permits the NERFING of Ordinary Day....which has NEVER been possible before.

It is like OD in any other situation.....except it can KILL ordinary day too!!!

It is a HUGE difference!!

Now your swarm team can take a click here and there from Malice ...while Apocalypse will slowly wither from Malice!!!:laugh: :laugh:

wes

My quote was saying the new version of ignoring a BFC is essentially like an Ordinary Day. It ignores a BFC for both players, essentially cancelling it (like Ordinary Day).