Stat Point Requirements

[zakiszak]

Hi all

I'd like your help listing the requirements for stat points. Below are the stat point situations that I could think of, but I'm clearly missing many, so please reply with further examples.

This way we can make a comprehensive list, and discuss analyze the gray areas that frequently confuse. Apologies for the messiness, as ideas come in I can give this a better format. Apologies if phrasing is over complicated, that rules lawyer talk has a habit of really escalating.

Stat types:

-SA (successful attacks)
-KO (successful KO)
-AST (Figure A enables or enhances an ally's attack)
-DFD (Figure A completely stops an enemy figure from any possibility of damaging figure A's allies)


Definitions:

-Figure A=the figure who is gaining the stat in question
-Enemy A=the enemy figure who is being attacked
-Ability=power/feat/TA



Anal Rules Lawyers Unite!!

[zakiszak]

Definitions from the main thread:

Successful Attacks: Making a successful attack of any type (Ranged attack, Mind Control, Support) earns you 1 Successful Attack Stat Point (or 1 SA).

KO's: Making an attack that ends in KO'ing a character will earn you 1 KO Stat Point (Or 1 KO).

Assist: Characters who assist in their teammate’s attacks can be awarded 1 Assist Stat Point (or 1 AST). An Assist is classified as any non-attack action (including a free action) which helps a teammate to either hit their opponent (such as Outwitting Super Senses or using PC to hit), or do extra damage to an opponent (Such as Enhancement or Perplex). The assist must occur on the same turn as the attack. Common powers which are used as assists are TK, Outwit, Perplex, Enhancement, and Probability Control. If multiple characters make an assist on the same attack, every character can earn 1 AST. If you earn 10 AST's, you character can promote to the next level or purchase a new feat (subject to Referee's approval)

NOTE: If you use perplex or any other effect that modifies and replaces defense/attack/damage values, an AST is only awarded if the modification was needed. You do not get an AST for modifying a value that you did not need modified to make a successful attack.

(Example: I attack someone on their last clix of life. I already do 3 damage. I modify my damage up one with perplex. No AST given, because the attack would have caused the KO normally)

Defend: Characters who assist their teammates in actively stopping an attack can be awarded 1 Defend Stat Points (or 1 DFD). A Defend is classified as any Power that actively stops a teammate from avoiding damage (such as using Probability Control to re-roll a successful attack into a failed attack). Common powers which are used as Defends are Probability Control, Barrier, Outwit (but only outwitting Charge, Run-Shot or Hyper Sonic Speed), and of course Defend.

So for instance, I have Moondragon TK the Hulk who's carrying a Heavy Object, and the Hulk then attacks Blue Beetle and does 6 damage. Moondragon would earn 1 AST Stat Point, Hulk would earn 1 SA Stat Point and 1 KO Stat Point.

[zakiszak]

SA Examples/Clarifications

This one is pretty straightforward.

Examples
-SA rewarded when Figure A makes a successful attack that does damage or affects any enemy (including mind control)
-One SA will be rewarded per successful attack
-Flurry can yield multiple SAs, along with any power that grants multiple attacks

Clarifications
-Only one successful attack is made per roll
-Attacks that target multiple enemies, but only make one attack roll, only result in one SA (such as multi-target ranged attacks, pulsewave, quake...).
-Powers such as flurry, which allow multiple attacks to be made in a single action, result in multiple SAs


Questions
-Would someone receive multiple SAs from HSS option 2?

-Does Figure A gain an SA from using forceblast on an enemy? Does figure A gain the SA if the enemy is forceblasted into a wall for damage? Does figure A gain the SA if the enemy would have been forceblasted into the wall regardless of how far they were knocked back (they were wall adjacent)? Does Figure A gain the SA if the enemy is knocked back by forceblast, but takes no damage?

-Does figure A gain an SA from the successful use of drag?

-Does figure A gain 2 SAs if they successfully mind controlled an enemy, and that enemy then makes a successful attack?
-Does figure A gain multiple SAs if they successfully mind control multiple enemies, and those multiple enemies make successful attacks?

[zakiszak]

KO Examples/Clarifications

Also pretty simple

Examples

-SA rewarded when Figure A KOs an enemy figure, demonstrating great vigor and manliness
-If a figure is KOed without enemy involvement (through pushing, damage from BFCs or special objects), the KO is rewarded to the opponent who most recently hit him (clarification question below).


Clarifications:
-If an enemy who is mind controlled scores a successful KO, the mind controller gains the KO.


Questions:
-Is the KO of a figure who dies on it's own rewarded to the enemy figure who hit him most recently, who did the most damage, or who hit him the most times? Ex. Superman nails Doomsday for 5 damage, the Flash pings him for 1 damage 3 times, and Batman hits him for 2 damage. Earthquake then goes off, who gets the KO?

[zakiszak]

AST Examples/Clarifications

This is the tricky one

Examples

-If figure A uses outwit or another ability to nullify Enemy A's attack/damage evading ability, such as super senses, shape change, skrull/danger girl TA, before an ally successfully attacks Enemy A
-If figure A uses outwit or another ability to nullify Enemy A's damage reducing ability, such as toughness, invul., imperv., LMD, Force Field, before an ally successfully attacks Enemy A.
-If figure A uses outwit or another ability to nullify Enemy A's defense buffing ability/feat, such as ESD, CCR, ICWO, Defend, before an ally successfully hits Enemy A with a roll that would have failed had the defensive buff been in place.

-If figure A uses a stat buffing ability such as perplex or enhancement to raise an ally's AV or movement or damage before the ally makes a successful attack. In cases or buffed AV or movement, the AST is only rewarded if the attack would have failed or been impossible without the buff

-If figure A uses PC to turn an ally's unsuccessful attack into a successful attack (assuming the attack does damage)

-If figure A makes an ally's impossible attack against an enemy possible, by using an ability/feat to put figure A into range/LOS of the enemy, or to put the enemy into range/LOS of the ally. Abilities include TK & Fast Ball Special.
-If figure A makes an ally's impossible attack against an enemy possible, by changing the game board to clear LOS. This includes destroying blocking terrain


Clarifications
-If figure A outwits Enemy A's damage/attack evading ability before an ally makes a successful attack, figure A gains the AST regardless of what the Super Sense/Shape change/... roll would have been.
-As said above, if Figure A alters an ally or enemy's stats before an ally's successful attack, Figure A only gets the AST if the attack would have failed or been impossible without the stat alteration.

Questions
-If The Mighty Thor is on his last click of health with toughness, and batman outwits the toughness before Superman delivers a five click blow to Thor, would Batman still gain the AST?

-If Falcon uses drag to pull an enemy out of hindering, then Falcon's Ally rolls the exact number needed hit the clear terrain enemy, does Falcon gain an AST?
-If Falcon uses drag to pull an enemy into an allies range/LOS, does Falcon get an AST (kind of reverse TK)?
-If Professor X uses MC to cause an enemy to walk into an ally's range/LOS, does Professor X get an AST

-Does Danger gain an AST from using Strategic Database to remove the hindering bonus?
-Does Figure A get an AST for moving an object, thus creating non-hindered LOS to a stealthed enemy?
-Does Figure A get an AST for moving an object, thus creating non-hindered LOS to an enemy, followed by an ally making a successful ranged attack against the enemy that would have failed had hindering been in place?
-Does Figure A get an AST for using an ability that removes an object from the board, thus creating non-hindered LOS to an enemy, followed by an ally making a successful ranged attack against the enemy that would have failed had hindering been in place?

-Does Figure A get an AST for sharing his TA (Ultimates/Supes) with a wildcard ally, thus allowing that ally to make a successful attack on a stealthed enemy?
-Does Figure A get an AST for sharing his stat buff TA (Ult. X-men, Morlocks...) with a wild card ally, thus giving the ally the exact AV needed to make

-Does Figure A get an AST for knocking down a wall and creating LOS?

[dbauers]

This reminds me that I have to take away my DFD for Avalanche, after reading in the thread about how with barrier you have to create a situation in which no attacks are capable of being made. My opponent simply decided not to push half his team to bust out barriers, so I thought that was enough.

A couple other things you may want to add:

KOs: if a character KOs himself by pushing, crit miss, using nova blast, etc. the last character to damage him gets credit for the KO. If a MCed figure KOs one of his allies, the MCer gets credit for the KO.

ASTs: sinister syndicate/bat enemy can give ASTs if the extra shared attack was needed.

SAs: Two successful hits with flurry results in 2 SAs, because 2 attack rolls are required. A multi-target ranged attack only grants 1 SA (only one roll), but may grant more than 1 KO.

edit: took me too long, you addressed some of mine already. ;) Good question about HSS.

[Antipathy]

Why is this in the trading forum?

[zakiszak]

DFD Examples/Clarifications

Examples

-Figure A uses outwit or another ability to nullify an enemy's move/attack ability, preventing the enemy from attacking ANY member of Figure A's team.
-Figure A uses outwit or another ability to nullifyan enemy's damage buffing ability, preventing the enemy from damaging ANY member of Figure A's team, even with a critical hit.
-Figure A uses outwit or another ability to nullify an enemy's stat buffing ability, preventing the enemy from gaining the necessary range or movement to attack ANY member of figure A's team?


-Figure A uses a [B]stat sharing ability to raise the defense of an ally, causing the ally to avoid an enemy's attack that would have hit without the stat sharing.

-Figure A uses PC or a similar ability to turn an enemy's successful attack into an unsuccessful attack.

-Figure A uses an ability like barrier to alter the map terrain to make it IMPOSSIBLE for an enemy figure to attack any member of Figure A's team, either through blocking LOS or engagement or movement.



Clarifications

-Figure A does not get a DFD if an enemy can still damage his allies with a critical hit
-Figure A does not get a DFD if he makes an enemy attack very unappealing, requiring multiple pushes and 8 critical hits, inspiring the enemy to not attempt the attack
-Figure A does not get a DFD for 'taking one for the team', arranging it so that Figure A is the only figure who can be hit



Questions

-Does figure A get a DFD if they lay down hindering terrain, which causes an a enemy to miss an attack on an ally by one?
-Does figure A get a DFD if they lay down hindering terrain, which causes the only potential target for an enemy to become stealthed

-Does figure A get a DFD for outwitting poison?

-If figure A outwits Superman's HSS (needed for Supes to attack anyone), does figure A gain the stat even if Batman COULD push to possibly attack Figure A and knock him off outwit?

-Does a figure gain stats for being mastermind fodder? Why doesn't that violate the 'taking one for the team' rule that doesn't reward the DFD for engaging an enemy that could otherwise have attacked other team members?

[zakiszak]

This'll be ready for comments in about 30 minutes, do me a favor and leave it clean until then.

Thanks

[The Vision]

Stat types:

-SA (successful attacks)
-KO (successful KO or you were the last character to attack a figure that pushes itself to death.)
-AST (Figure A enables or enhances an ally's attack OR makes an ally's attack possible: TK, breaking a wall tk'ing an ally, outwitting the opponent's defense power)
-DFD (Figure A completely stops an enemy figure from any possibility of damaging figure A's allies or saving your ally from damage: receivng Mastermind damage.)

[Doombot 3.1]

This is a cool idea--we really do need something explaining when you get (or don't get) a stat.

As for SAs, I think they should be given only for successful attack rolls. The Legion Rulebook defines "attack roll" as:

"The result of rolling two d6 when a character makes a close combat or ranged combat attack."

Therefore, no SAs for Force Blast or Drag, even when damage is done to another figure.

As for successful mind controls, I believe the current rule is that only the initial successful mind control attack qualifies for the SA. Attack rolls by the mind-controlled figure don't qualify for SAs. In other words, if A successfully mind controls B, and B successfully hits C, only A gets the SA.

For what it's worth, it's probably easiest just keeping this rule. I suppose it could be justified thematically by saying that the mind-controlled figure isn't consciously and willingly trying to hit its target, so it shouldn't qualify for a stat.

The question about HSS option 2 is a good one. On the one hand, you would potentially make 4 attack rolls. On the other hand, for purposes of damage dealt, damage is aggregated and considered as one attack; for example, if I use HSS option 2 and make all 4 attack rolls, it's considered to be one attack that deals 4 damage instead of 4 attacks that deal 1 damage each.

This is different from Flurry, which does not aggregate damage. For example, if I have a damage value of 2, and I hit with both Flurries, it's treated as 2 attacks that each deal 2 damage (and therefore, reduced by Invulnerability or Impervious, to zero damage), rather than 1 attack that deals 4 damage.

Because damage is aggregated for HSS option 2, I think it makes more sense to award only 1 SA for HSS option 2, even if you make all 4 attack rolls. I don't know if there has ever been an official ruling, but it just makes more sense to me to award only 1 SA when damage is aggregated.

[Doombot 3.1]

Questions:
-Is the KO of a figure who dies on it's own rewarded to the enemy figure who hit him most recently, who did the most damage, or who hit him the most times? Ex. Superman nails Doomsday for 5 damage, the Flash pings him for 1 damage 3 times, and Batman hits him for 2 damage. Earthquake then goes off, who gets the KO?

I'm pretty sure the official Wizkids rule is that KOs go to the player who last damaged a figure. This usually comes up in the context of multi-player games, but it seems the simplest and most straight-forward way of dealing with the issue.

If a figure takes damage and then dies, as a result of pushing, Earthquake damage, or some other set of circumstances not resulting from an attack roll by an opposing figure, the last character to deal damage to the KO'd figure should get the KO.

In the example above, Batman gets the KO for being the last figure to damage Doomsday.

[Doombot 3.1]

Questions
-If The Mighty Thor is on his last click of health with toughness, and batman outwits the toughness before Superman delivers a five click blow to Thor, would Batman still gain the AST?

No. Superman would have KO'd Thor regardless of whether Toughness was outwitted or not. ASTs should be awarded only if the Outwit resulted in more damage being dealt than would have been the case if the defensive power had not been countered, or if the KO would not have resulted if the defensive power had not been countered.

-If Falcon uses drag to pull an enemy out of hindering, then Falcon's Ally rolls the exact number needed hit the clear terrain enemy, does Falcon gain an AST?
I don't think this has ever been ruled on, but I would say yes. Here, the attack would not have succeeded, but for the use of Drag. That's consistent with how we award ASTs, i.e. awarding them when an attack would not have succeeded, but for the power/TA/whatever.

-If Falcon uses drag to pull an enemy into an allies range/LOS, does Falcon get an AST (kind of reverse TK)?
Again, I'd say yes, based on the reasoning above.

-If Professor X uses MC to cause an enemy to walk into an ally's range/LOS, does Professor X get an AST
Yes. I thought this was actually in the Q&A post. Any way, I've gotten ASTs for using MC to cause enemies to walk into range.

-Does Danger gain an AST from using Strategic Database to remove the hindering bonus?
I would say yes. I don't see how this is conceptually different from using Outwit or Outsiders TA to negate an ESD bonus.

-Does Figure A get an AST for moving an object, thus creating non-hindered LOS to a stealthed enemy?
I don't know if this has ever been ruled on, but I would say yes. It makes possible an attack that otherwise could not be made. Conceptually, I think it's similar to using MC to cause another figure to move into range.

-Does Figure A get an AST for moving an object, thus creating non-hindered LOS to an enemy, followed by an ally making a successful ranged attack against the enemy that would have failed had hindering been in place?
I would say yes, for reasons explained above.

-Does Figure A get an AST for using an ability that removes an object from the board, thus creating non-hindered LOS to an enemy, followed by an ally making a successful ranged attack against the enemy that would have failed had hindering been in place?
Again, I'd say yes, for reasons already given above.


-Does Figure A get an AST for sharing his TA (Ultimates/Supes) with a wildcard ally, thus allowing that ally to make a successful attack on a stealthed enemy?
Again, I'd say yes, for reasons already given above.

-Does Figure A get an AST for sharing his stat buff TA (Ult. X-men, Morlocks...) with a wild card ally, thus giving the ally the exact AV needed to make the attack?
I would say yes. It's hard to draw any distinction between doing this and using, say, Hydra TA to hit another figure.

-Does Figure A get an AST for knocking down a wall and creating LOS?
Yes. I've gotten ASTs before for doing exactly this.

[Doombot 3.1]

Questions

-Does figure A get a DFD if they lay down hindering terrain, which causes an a enemy to miss an attack on an ally by one?
-Does figure A get a DFD if they lay down hindering terrain, which causes the only potential target for an enemy to become stealthed
I would say yes. In the first case, an otherwise successful attack becomes a miss, and in the second case, a successful attack becomes impossible. Awarding a DFD seems consistent with what the stat is trying to reward.

-Does figure A get a DFD for outwitting poison?
I would say yes, although I'm not sure what the official ruling is.

-If figure A outwits Superman's HSS (needed for Supes to attack anyone), does figure A gain the stat even if Batman COULD push to possibly attack Figure A and knock him off outwit?
I'm not sure what the official ruling is, but here, I think it'd be easier to just award Figure A the DFD. It's not a perfect rule, but at some point, a clear and simple rule is better than a more complicated one that tries to take every possible permutation into consideration.

-Does a figure gain stats for being mastermind fodder? Why doesn't that violate the 'taking one for the team' rule that doesn't reward the DFD for engaging an enemy that could otherwise have attacked other team members?
You get DFDs for being mastermind fodder. Sadly, cannon fodder do not get DFDs. In principle, the two are quite similar--less valuable figure takes a hit intended for a more valuable figure.

However, there's an element of subjectivity for cannon fodder, and I think it's easier to just avoid those situations. With mastermind fodder, it's a much more clear-cut situation.

[Peers]

-If figure A outwits Superman's HSS (needed for Supes to attack anyone), does figure A gain the stat even if Batman COULD push to possibly attack Figure A and knock him off outwit?


Yes, he does. But if Batman knocks him off Outwit, he loses the DFD and Batman gains an AST.