View Full Version : In any given future expansion, what % of remakes is too much?
brevard321
03/14/2008, 03:19
In any given future 60-figure Heroclix expansion set from here on in (post-Crisis expansion), what % of remakes is too much? Please review the choices and vote accordingly, discussion is expected! :)
Remake is a very non-specific term, but for the sake of clarity, here are my official stances on what constitutes a remake:
JL Green Lantern (Guy): not a remake
JL Batman & Robin duo: remake
Crisis Green Lantern (Hal): remake
Crisis Nightwing: remake
Crisis Nightwing & Starfire duo: remake
Crisis Pied Piper & Trickster duo: not a remake
Crisis Batgirl: remake
Origin Superman Unique: not a remake
Crisis Superman Earth-2 chase: remake (of Origin Superman Unique)
Crisis Boy Wonder LE (Jason): not a remake
Manchine
03/14/2008, 03:36
Right now I would say about 50% for me. A lot of figures in marvel need to be redone. Pretty much everything from Fantastic Forces on back. :)
brevard321
03/14/2008, 03:40
I'm personally looking at the 33% mark Manchine. The only reason that I might consider an even higher % is because of retirement. I was sorting all of my Marvel pieces last night, looking for some event dials I lost, thinking to myself, that I can't even play 80% of these pieces in an official tournament this week, that stinks!
That's why the Batman Alpha set will really help because all of those Batman Enemies are retired, heck the only legal Joker is the Emperor Joker! And the only legal Wonder Woman is the Artemis or the 1 Million version. Travesty I say!!! :)
eh. bout a third is good for me.
Manchine
03/14/2008, 03:45
I'm personally looking at the 33% mark Manchine. The only reason that I might consider an even higher % is because of retirement. I was sorting all of my Marvel pieces last night, looking for some event dials I lost, thinking to myself, that I can't even play 80% of these pieces in an official tournament this week, that stinks!
That's why the Batman Alpha set will really help because all of those Batman Enemies are retired, heck the only legal Joker is the Emperor Joker! And the only legal Wonder Woman is the Artemis or the 1 Million version. Travesty I say!!! :)
If you would of asked me back at Avengers I would said 33% also. I don't look at retirement to much just playability.
brevard321
03/14/2008, 03:46
Oooh, here's a thought, wouldn't a great sales gimmick be if the next DC or Marvel set only contained characters that hadn't previously been made?
That would be something. Of course then Superman, Batman, Wolverine, Elektra, and Spider-Man are out of luck, but still, it'd be a fun marketing gimmick... :)
As far as I'm concerned, they can put as many remakes in any set they want so long as they're:
1. Good dials and good representations of the characters.
2. Not too soon after the characters' last versions.
Uknown352
03/14/2008, 04:02
33% is the obvious choice....okay no it isn't.
The Charlatan
03/14/2008, 04:03
I'd prefer not more than 50% remakes, and less is preferable...
That being said, there are probably enough retired figures from the first several sets to make a set of nothing but remakes...
They have a long way to go in order to update a lot of figures. Whether it be updated powers, Team abilities, or just a costume change. They had a lot of sets before the introduction of Special powers and certain game mechanics, so they have some catching up to do to make older characters all that they can be. However, I would like to see an equal representation of previously unmade figures mixed in with the needed remakes. I personally think they've been doing a great job of this. Just remember, though. With every unmade figure they make, they come closer to scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Dr. Morbius
03/14/2008, 05:00
For me there's no way they should include more than 25% remakes in a set. That's 15 remakes with every expansion...even that is a lot. So many cool characters have not even been made, yet. I don't mind a new Spidey, Hulk or Wolverine every once in a while, and of course some characters from IC-FF really need a remake to be playable again (Hercules, Blob,...), but I really don't need the 6th version of Storm or Colossus or even worse: a 7th version of beast.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for remakes, but not all at a time...75% per set should really be new characters!! This isn't a movie franchise where there's only a rather limited number of characters (Star Wars, etc.). We're talking about the Marvel (and DC) Universe which is inhabited by 1000s of characters...and the comic creators keep making new ones while we talk. We are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from the bottom of the barrel!
We're talking about the Marvel (and DC) Universe which is inhabited by 1000s of characters...and the comic creators keep making new ones while we talk. We are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from the bottom of the barrel!
I wasn't saying we were even close, but just simply saying that we get CLOSER every time a new one is made. Heck, I could probably name at least 100 deserving characters off the top of my head, but you do have to concede to the fact that not all of those 1000's of characters are winners. How long before we see characters like Typeface or 8-Ball?
Dr. Morbius
03/14/2008, 05:13
I wasn't saying we were even close, but just simply saying that we get CLOSER every time a new one is made. Heck, I could probably name at least 100 deserving characters off the top of my head, but you do have to concede to the fact that not all of those 1000's of characters are winners. How long before we see characters like Typeface or 8-Ball?
That's true! I don't see, however, why the inclusion of characters like Typeface, 8-Ball, the Gibbon, the Ringer or the Nanny would be any more obscure than Two-Gun Kid, Umar, Agent Brand or Devil Dinosaur...
A lot of the rather unknown or B-(to E-)List characters could have very interesting dials...or be cool henchman for the real Megalomaniacs (as Doom, Doc Ock or Loki).
uss_Titans
03/14/2008, 05:15
How about for every year Wizkids would release two sets for both DC and Marvel. One set would be like Crisis and Secret Invasion, and the other would be like Batman-Alpha, all reissue heroclix with new base, new power and new card but same old mold. The remakes would be about 25% in the new set like C or SI. This way we have all of our old retired clix updated to the new 2.0 Heroclix system.
That's true! I don't see, however, why the inclusion of characters like Typeface, 8-Ball, the Gibbon, the Ringer or the Nanny would be any more obscure than Two-Gun Kid, Umar, Agent Brand or Devil Dinosaur...
A lot of the rather unknown or B-(to E-)List characters could have very interesting dials...or be cool henchman for the real Megalomaniacs (as Doom, Doc Ock or Loki).
This goes along with my ideology of "One man's trash is another man's treasure."
Or, as someone else has put it before, "One man's Quasar is another man's Wolverine."
Personally, the more obscure the character, the more I tend to like them. I'm all about scraping the bottom.
How about for every year Wizkids would release two sets for both DC and Marvel. One set would be like Crisis and Secret Invasion, and the other would be like Batman-Alpha, all reissue heroclix with new base, new power and new card but same old mold. The remakes would be about 25% in the new set like C or SI. This way we have all of our old retired clix updated to the new 2.0 Heroclix system.
I don't quite know how I like shelling money out for this new Batman thing with character sculpts I already have, but with new dials. I would prefer them to do the updated figures in the sets with updated dials AND sculpts.
I went with 75%, because really do think that there are very few characters left worth making that haven't been made, and that plenty of characters could use remakes. I do think it's a matter of specifics though, who is being remade, and how good is their remake? I'd trade a dozen AV Taskmasters for a CR Karate Kid, but I'd also trade a dozen CR Forerunners for a CR Batgirl.
Granite Moose
03/14/2008, 05:24
I voted for 25% as that seems about right to me. However, I'm not opposed to remakes per se. I just think there are quite a number of characters that still need to see the light of day in clix form.
I went with 75%, because really do think that there are very few characters left worth making that haven't been made, and that plenty of characters could use remakes. I do think it's a matter of specifics though, who is being remade, and how good is their remake? I'd trade a dozen AV Taskmasters for a CR Karate Kid, but I'd also trade a dozen CR Forerunners for a CR Batgirl.
I totally agree. I went with 75% as well for many reasons, one of which is simply because a lot of my favorite characters just don't have the same shine on them without that nice new Seth wax job...
TornMoon
03/14/2008, 09:06
I think that any good charcter (those that are still active in the comics) whose figure is about to be retired or is currently retired needs to be remade. Good examples are the Fantastic Four, the new venom (scorpion), green goblin, black suit spider-man. But, there are so many good characters that have been done yet. The slingers need to be done. For the love of god, just do the slingers, and speedball (orginal and penance).
[B]
Remake is a very non-specific term, but for the sake of clarity, here are my official stances on what constitutes a remake:
JL Green Lantern (Guy): not a remake
JL Batman & Robin duo: remake
Crisis Green Lantern (Hal): remake
Crisis Nightwing: remake
Crisis Nightwing & Starfire duo: remake
Crisis Pied Piper & Trickster duo: not a remake
Crisis Batgirl: remake
Origin Superman Unique: not a remake
Crisis Superman Earth-2 chase: remake (of Origin Superman Unique)
Crisis Boy Wonder LE (Jason): not a remake
I voted 25%, but as time goes on you will only ever see about 20-30% of figures that are NOT remakes, because they've really gotten to most of the 'good' characters at least once. Whether the figure is any good or not is subject to a whole different debate. I'm not against remakes at all, I'm against remakes that are just carbon copies of whatever came before. Also, popular characters sell sets. So, yeah...remakes are happening.
Your official stance on 'remakes' is one that only ever cares if they've been made before regardless of how different or play mechanics, or how long they've been out of the game? And I'm taking this to be a negative opinion? Please clarify that part.
Example one - Batman and Robin - As a duo figure, they are remakes. Because their NAME exists in the game already on separate figures. Check. Batman and Robin, while made several times separately have NEVER been made together. Even if i agree that it is somehow a remake I wouldn't condone elminating such figures in the future.
Example two - Green Lantern (jordan) - Ok, a definite remake. I have no problem with the classification on this one, even though he's welcome in my book. However, he's still basically Running Shot/TK, Willpower with some new twists. Still, they could make Hal every other set and i'd be happy, personally.
Example three- Crisis Batgirl. So, the last time she was made was Cosmic Justice in 2003. It's 2008. I think that's more than acceptible considering she was asked for almost before Cosmic Justice came out....they previewed her and she sucked. Similar stuff going on on the dial, but definitely beefier, well deserved statistics. Which is what people wanted from the first one. So, your stance doesn't care about time...I'll check back with you when they do John Stewart again in 2009.
Example Four - Earth-2 Superman. The Origin Superman, who is the original non-flying, certainly not the only interpretation of the Earth-2 Superman version. Now we have both with completely different dials and power configurations. They are for all intents and purposes two completely different figures. So your official stance does not care about play mechanics or seperate interpretation, only that it exists. My opinion is they needed to make the definitive Crisis version, so once again...welcome. Not thrilled about the chase part, but that's life.
Anything over 50% would be too much, but I would like to see a LOT of remakes, so I don't know how to go on that.
AdamWarlock
03/14/2008, 09:26
By this point, either due to figures being done wrong in the first place or just being rendered obsolete by later figures, there are enough Marvel figures needing remakes to fill out 1-2 60 figure sets all by themselves. Nonetheless, there are no less than 4 sets worth of people yet to be made that could fill out 60 figure sets by themselves with zero remakes without completely scraping the bottom of the barrel, and these guys take first priority for me; even if they were to be crafty with their remakes and work some new people into their remake sets such as Immortus as a Kang remake or Magus as an Adam Warlock remake, etc.
So I think 33% remakes is a good enough tradeoff.
I said 50% because there's a lot of characters that need it. The Fantastic Four. Doom. Classic Spider-Man. Dr. Strange. 616 Namor. A lot. Some figures never need to be remade, like Nimrod and Fantomex, and I think we have enough/good enough versions of Silver Surfer and Thanos and Hulk that we really don't need more of them. And there are a lot of new characters that should be made. Like Spider-Girl and Phyla-Vell and Star-Lord and Gamora and Morbius.
But even still, what about characters like Misty Knight and Colleen Wing? Is it a remake if it was a pog the first time around?
elfholme
03/14/2008, 09:54
I picked 33% as an acceptable level. I just want to point out that the answers don't seem to match the question though. The question asks how much is too much, but the answers seem to be how much is acceptable.
I picked 33% as my choice, assuming I was picking what level was acceptable to me. I hope that was a correct assumption.
elfholme
03/14/2008, 10:00
Your official stance on 'remakes' is one that only ever cares if they've been made before regardless of how different or play mechanics, or how long they've been out of the game? And I'm taking this to be a negative opinion? Please clarify that part.
I think brevard was purposely trying not to add "positive" or "negative" to his definition. He just defined the term because otherwise people would be asking him what he considers a remake, or would be making their own assumptions (it happens in EVERY thread where we talk about remakes). For example some people consider Crisis Pied Piper and Trickster a remake, which I find ludicrous...if we allow both my and their definition on remakes, the poll becomes meaningless. Brevard was smart to define the term.
I think brevard was purposely trying not to add "positive" or "negative" to his definition. He just defined the term because otherwise people would be asking him what he considers a remake, or would be making their own assumptions (it happens in EVERY thread where we talk about remakes). For example some people consider Crisis Pied Piper and Trickster a remake, which I find ludicrous...if we allow both my and their definition on remakes, the poll becomes meaningless. Brevard was smart to define the term.
So half of Trickster and Pied Piper is a remake....LOL. Yeah. Ludicrous just about covers it.
And to acknowledge the main point...'how many do you want, and here are my qualifications', with said qualifications it seems like he's against. However, I can see where he might not want to come right out and say it.
Darth Sabre
03/14/2008, 10:22
I chose the 25% option, but really feel that no one set should have more than 10 remakes. It's not necessary.
rorschachknew
03/14/2008, 10:36
I picked 50%.
I think that figs need to be remade on a regular cycle to 1-keep them available to newer players and 2) keep popular characters current and competitive. SPs are an excellent example, as they give new options to old characters that had powers/skills that werent easily defined with the PAC.
As a side note, I dont consider the Trickster/Pied Piper a remake because Piper was never made(that I know of) and the Trickster from CD wasnt James Jesse, it was another person, some kid. Just my opinion.
NeoShazam
03/14/2008, 10:48
I voted for 50%.
On second thought it might be higher depending on retirement.
Marvel in particular is probably 95% remakes for me, DC slightly lower.
I like remakes of older characters. (seriously, some of the old figure are really not on par with the new ones) HOWEVER, we do not need more than one remake of one particular character in one set (beast, robin, nightwing comes to mind)
I'd love to see characters remade with the SP, but I'd don't want a super high %, so I voted 10%. I could maybe go for 25%, but that would be pushing it.
Dr. Morbius
03/14/2008, 12:03
I totally agree. I went with 75% as well for many reasons, one of which is simply because a lot of my favorite characters just don't have the same shine on them without that nice new Seth wax job...
I totally agree with what you say Algrim, BUT we're not talking about the next set, we're talking about a general percentage. with 45 reappearing characters in one set, you'd have almost 200 remakes within 4 sets :confused: Is that really what you 75%-voters want? Just curious...
Here's an example list of what such an expansion could look like:
Umar
Ulik
Scourge
Spider-Man
Wasp
Beast
Colossus
Storm
Starfox
Iron-Man
Namor
Rogue
Wolverine
Daredevil
Elektra
MODOK
Phoenix (Rachel)
Nick Fury
Whirlwind
Dr. Ocktopus
Professor X
Wonder-Man
Vision
Scarlet Witch
Venom
Giant-Man
Quasar
Sersi
Hercules
Blob
Thanos
Medusa
Enchantress
Titania
Captain America
Havok
Jubilee
Vindicator
Puck
Cable
Rhino
Electro
Vulture
Kraven
Blade
------------ and 15 new characters
Rictor
Feral
Syrin
M
Kylun
Cho'd
Caliban
Triton
Chameleon
Prowler
Morbius
Arachne
Dr. Druid
Triathlon
Red Wolf
Does it thrill you? (although there's LOTS of cool remakes in it)
If this was a spoiler list of a new set, I'd be putting the 15 new ones on my want list right away, while I'd wait for the sculpts and stats of the other 45 to be revealed to see if I'd really want them. Maybe it's just me...
Now imagine what the next set with 45 remakes would look like...and the one after that...*yaaaawn*
Prof. Aragorn
03/14/2008, 12:03
I don't have a problem with remakes so long as they are more comic accurate, or have a different interpretation of the character.
Even though we already have Batman and Robin separately, the duo is an excellent variation.
Even though we have over thirty Spider-Men, The Experienced Transporter plays differently than the Armor Wars Unique or the New Avengers version, but all are completely playable, accurate, and excellent dials.
Taskmaster and Wrecker - though very expensive for their function, are nonetheless character accurate and new representations (Wrecker gets charge, yay!)
However, the remakes in Icons were mostly just rehashes. Icons Superman Veteran is just a better representation of Our World's at War (no leadership, better stats, and more points!), Icons Batman is pretty much Hypertime Batman but more consistent or better stats (with a trade-off of complete crappiness mid-dial).
I'm fine with plenty of remakes (not too much, there's always new figures to introduce), so long as they are different interpretation of the characters.
Ouchmaker
03/14/2008, 12:42
Is it just me, but is the poll question and the answer options slightly "wrong"? Because the question asks how much would be too much, yet the answers tell us how much would still be ok?
But I chose the 33% category. Just as long as half the set (50% category would be too much) is not a remake, I'm happy. But we need remakes, specially on the Marvel side.
Just look at Pyro, Blob, Avalanche, and others that are now dead/depowered/unavailable, their status makes it unlikely that they will appear in a future set, but some of them are real classics, and having newer versions of them would help bring life in the classic battles and scenarios I would like to play.
We need remakes, but not on the expense of new major characters needing a first making. But this doesn't mean that every new character should be made before we get some good remakes of classic characters.
Cliffjumper
03/14/2008, 12:52
I went with 50/50.
Im thinking remake means more like update. Update with half the set as quickly as possible since there are so many that need it. They other half should be new characters. My feeling is that new more obscure characters, as much as I want them, shouldnt overshadow better more powerful dated character pieces only because their stats and powers are more updated.
rorschachknew
03/14/2008, 13:04
update is a good way to look at it.
I get excited when I find out theres going to be a new sculpt and dial for a favorite character, even if theres already an awesome one. For example, I love the Vet Sub-Mariner, but Id be thrilled to get a new fig with an even higher point total.
its also nice to have build options, lik I can use old E Deathstroke for 50 pts, and hes great, or I can roll out the new "bring-it-on-JL" 156(?)pt big gun.
Glen Quagmire
03/14/2008, 13:13
I chose 33 percent, but that was moreso with DC in mind. With Marvel, given I'm only interested in a few non-remakes, all bets are off. I wouldn't care if they took verbatim rosters from an old set and called it Mutant Mayhem II or whatever.
Thrumble Funk
03/14/2008, 13:14
See, I'm on the fence. Captain America? I think we're just about set with him. Superman? Ditto. However, I'd like to see remakes of characters that were either grossly misrepresented or are horribly obsolete. Characters that fit into this category:
Solomon Grundy
Swamp Thing
Mr. Fixit
Smart Hulk
GL John Stewart
Black Widow
Power Girl
Jay Garrick Flash
wolfpack86
03/14/2008, 13:41
I think for DC it's about 50%, and for Marvel, I don't really know because, I think they could make a couple sets of remakes, because there are so many that need an update with the introduction of SP's. In my opinion every "big" character that hasn't been made with SP's yet, should take priority over lesser characters, not only for the fact that obscure characters probably wouldn't be as much fun, but also for the betterment of the game, because without remakes of "big" characters, for the most part consumers aren't going to be happy, and I for one, don't want to see this game go down anytime soon.
I went with 50/50.
Im thinking remake means more like update. Update with half the set as quickly as possible since there are so many that need it. They other half should be new characters. My feeling is that new more obscure characters, as much as I want them, shouldnt overshadow better more powerful dated character pieces only because their stats and powers are more updated.
this is how I felt.
With special powers there are so many remakes that could make characters more fun. I wouldn't want a Batman remade every set, just the characters that could use the updating (ex: Dr. Strange should have multiple power options per slot)
anonym0use
03/14/2008, 15:38
This poll confuses me so I didn't vote.
It asks what % I think is too many remakes then offers me some choices contrary to the question.
darius_dax1
03/14/2008, 17:02
I do not agree with the definitions of "remake" offered by the OP. Also, now that the R/E/V designation is gone, I don't think remakes are an issue. These characters need updates and in a restricted tournament environment there needs to be "legal" characters like Batman, Superman, SPider-Man, Wolverine, etc..
brevard321
03/14/2008, 17:51
Hey all, yeah, about the poll itself, the question should probably be something more like, "In any given future expansion, what % of remakes sounds about right?"
I was going with an upper-limit type question, as in, what is the highest % of remakes/updates you would be comfortable with in any given expansion. The options may not exactly match the question perfectly, but that was the original intent! Given the chance to do it over again, I'd use the question I posted above, but it's a little late for that. But just by the results of this poll, I think we can conclude that the overwhelming majority of respondents would like to keep the number of remakes in any given expansion at 50% or below. Sorry for the confusion on the poll choices, I should probably scrap this one and do it right, but I hate to do that since so many people have already voted, so maybe we will just end it early at some point soon.
As far as the remakes definition goes, I think the most important thing I was trying to emphasize was whether a specific character was being remade, not necessarily the incarnation of that character.
Clobbering Time Invisible Woman and Fantastic Forces Invisible Woman are definitely 2 different characters, so the Fantastic Forces version is not a remake of the CT version.
The chase Earth-2 Superman is a very different remake of the Origin Unique Superman, but it is still a remake. Definitely a different time frame for the character, but still the same character with the same costumed identity as well.
In this way, I would not call Binary a remake of Warbird because even though it's the same character, it's not the same costumed identity. If Misty Knight was made as a real sculpted piece, I would not consider that a remake, as I didn't consider the Lois Lane chase a remake of the Lois Lane Hypertime bystander.
Also Pied Piper & Trickster is definitely not a remake, since Pied Piper was never made, and the Trickster is a different character entirely (secret identity-wise). I still consider the Batman & Robin duo a remake, even though there is a different game mechanic, both characters had been previously made in several different incarnations. However, I would not consider a Batman & Stephanie Brown Robin duo as a remake, because she has never been made as Robin, only as Spoiler. :)
batjester
03/14/2008, 18:00
I'd like to see between 10-15 remakes per set. That gives you plenty of new characters *coughHoward the Duckcough* but will still leave room for the remakes that are really needed *coughHerculesMs Marvelcough* .
brevard321
03/14/2008, 19:11
Hey all, thanks for all the discussion and votes. I just redid the poll to match what everyone has been looking for as far as voting choices go. The new poll should be much less confusing, and should then give us a very accurate look at what % of remakes people really want.
Check out version 2 of this poll, and it will be much easier to vote exactly the way you want to! Thanks again for all the input, and I hope the frank discussion continues on the other poll thread. :)
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