Well, I'm banned from the WK forums... [Archive]

hair10

04/02/2008, 20:31

My first post on the WK forums in weeks got me banned today. There's a thread in the HC: General Discussion called "My $.41 back" (http://forum.wizkidsgames.com/showthread.php?t=177698) where a user is complaining about wasting time and money in sending in the brick fig and getting his envelope returned.

Now I haven't even logged into the WK forum in weeks but I did today to respond to this comment in that thread...

I received the same letter from Rose yesterday. I thanked her for responding and asked her to please direct me to the email address to whom I can write an email to about my dissatisfaction.

She responded this morning to say that she will find out that information and let me know. I have faith that she will indeed get that information for me.

Whether or not any letter I compose to that address will have any effect is questionable, but the last thing I want is for somebody who had no control over the execution to have to put up with my own irritation about it.
I posted a short reply stating that I would start by emailing Eric Engelhard, a WizKids Consumer Experience Representative, and that his email address is xxxxxxxxx@wizkidsgames.com.

I also pointed sylvos to the thread I started here (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227846) about sending the brick coupons back to the WK offices if he was dissatisfied with the outcome of the promotion.

That was it. No complaining, no bashing, no comments about how the brick program this go round was so messed up... just a simple straightforward message.

I just noticed today that my post was deleted and replaced with this one...

If you have feedback or complaints related to the BBB program, please contact:

consumer.experience@wizkidsgames.com

Please do not post the personal email addresses of wizkids employees or others. While letters of feedback are welcome, bombarding any business with no-content items via mail may be in violation of federal postal law, and will not be tolerated.
__________________
-Eric Engelhard
Consumer Experience Representative
Never mind the fact that MANY of the WK reps have posted their email addresses on the forums...INCLUDING Justin Ziran, the head of Brand Management at WK. And if Eric Engelhard doesn't want his email address used, why does he correspond with folks (myself included) while using it?!?! Why not just use the consumer.experience@wizkidsgames.com. :confused:

Anyway, I try to log back in to reply to Mr. Engelhard and I get this...

You have been banned for the following reason:
Both posting private email addresses, and trying to incite an illegal mail campaign in violation of federal law

Date the ban will be lifted: Never

So Mr. Engelhard, if you're reading this I would just like to thank you for reminding exactly why I hadn't been logging into the WK forums.

"Consumer Experience" indeed.

:tired:

malakim2099

04/02/2008, 20:36

You DO have a way with people, don't you? :rolleyes:

My official stance? Well, as a CSR for the company I work for... if someone figured out my work email (and not the generic 'customer service' email address) and posted it to a public forum? Um, yeah, I'd be pretty hot about that. So there's that.

Even if other employees don't mind publishing their personal emails? You shouldn't assume that it's kosher to do. Particularly given your past history with WK in general, it can look vindictive, even if it isn't.

Of course, the fact that they had a major overreaction in this matter hasn't escaped me either, if it makes you feel any better. ;)

darthfatty

04/02/2008, 20:40

Golf claps.

Dead_man_wadE

04/02/2008, 20:44

Sorry to hear that hair but the ral question is are you going to miss it? cause if your not then there is no loss

phantalien

04/02/2008, 20:45

I knew it all along. You are a terrorist try to terrorize the wizkids company. Or that is what WK makes it out to be. I only go on wizkids to check my pending judge status which is taking longer than I thought it would.

hair10

04/02/2008, 20:46

Even if other employees don't mind publishing their personal emails? You shouldn't assume that it's kosher to do.
If he doesn't want people to know it, then why does he use it for correspondence? When I was in a support position where I worked, I NEVER used my personal email when talking with customers. I always replied back through the generic account. :confused:

But you're right... I do seem to have a way with folks sometimes. :laugh:

fenway

04/02/2008, 20:52

Not to be all corny, but this is, at least, a good opportunity to recognize and appreciate the 'powers that be' around these parts.

Mods and Admins have certainly done a lot around here to support this community. They are communicative, proactive, and above all (as this thread should highlight) PATIENT and CALM.

We shouldn't take their work for granted - as we can see, it could be different.

drfaust176

04/02/2008, 21:06

Trying to perpetuate an illegal mail scam? What are, you phishing? This is no worse than all the fliers we get during campaign season, trying to sway us one way or another. Honestly, they make it sound like you're sending out anthrax or something. That's right, hair's a terrorist, sending in those...unused...coupons. He's no better than all those other crazies!

charlesx

04/02/2008, 21:10

Aha! Now we know that Hair10 is an anarchist troublemaker trying to bring chaos and disorder to the good folks at WK!! These actions will, of course, prompt the creation of a documentary film, in the tradition of and as a tribute to Alan Moore. And thus shall we have the new cinematic opus:

H for Hairnetta!!

:p

malakim2099

04/02/2008, 21:13

If he doesn't want people to know it, then why does he use it for correspondence? When I was in a support position where I worked, I NEVER used my personal email when talking with customers. I always replied back through the generic account. :confused:

As do I. I didn't claim it made sense. ;)

But you're right... I do seem to have a way with folks sometimes. :laugh:

I'll try not to junk shot you at GenCon. Can't treat a fellow nonvoy that way. :p

Repulsor rage

04/02/2008, 21:13

Wow thats fd. Im glad WizKids doesnt hate me like you or I would have to quit clix because of a bad taste in the back of my mouth every time I play lol But that suck

Rukuz

04/02/2008, 21:14

Hey props to you Hair for even trying to post on there.Knowing your past with them The Rukuz anything you post "about" them is gonna get you more problems.

Rukuz

04/02/2008, 21:15

Oh and The Rukuz is salty and sore about this whole WF fiasco.

JackAssterson

04/02/2008, 21:18

I remember when CBS sued thousands of fans for sending peanuts to attempt to save Jericho. It was a legal slaughter. All those lawyers going door to door, all those nuts being chucked into evidence bags.

Chilling, it was.

Chilling.

Cliffjumper

04/02/2008, 21:19

Well thats like name dropping...well sort of. More like email dropping. I can see the point though...who wants to get bombarded with angry pissed off hate emails and tons of useless letters.

Then again its is our right as consumers....what a pickle. What an overreaction though...federal blah blah blah....as if LOL :cheeky:

Banned from the Wkforums...oh well. You aint missing much as you know.

Can you still be an envoy or does this violate the contractual thingie?

Speaking of which...refresh me why you 2 broke up again?

Gacy's Clown

04/02/2008, 21:24

I thought everyone at Wizkids used their personal names in their email addresses? Guess it was just the old-school guys that actually wanted to hear from their fanbase, good or bad...:rolleyes:

Personally, I never would have known to NOT use that email address that you posted, because (as you pointed out) pretty much all previous employees had their email addresses like that.:ermm:

malakim2099

04/02/2008, 21:26

Speaking of which...refresh me why you 2 broke up again?

He brought Mark Tuttle roses... and Mark is dreadfully allergic to roses... :cheeky:

(Sorry, when you said break up, I couldn't resist the tangent.)

hair10

04/02/2008, 21:27

Speaking of which...refresh me why you 2 broke up again?
Heh... I haven't been an envoy since the whole RA thing. And I have zero desire to ever be one again.

docsweeney

04/02/2008, 21:31

Well, hair, maybe it's good to be banned. As Groucho Marx once said "I wouldn't want to join a club that would have anyone like me as a member". You weren't trying to incite a riot, just complain. Seems reasonable to me. Obviously, they know they @#$%ed up and can't take the heat.

malakim2099

04/02/2008, 21:31

Heh... I haven't been an envoy since the whole RA thing. And I have zero desire to ever be one again.

Unless my former venue's owner asks me to do it for a new store he opens... don't think I'm gonna do it either. Except for one thing, but that's more the excuse to go to Vegas for a few nights than anything else. ;)

Kaitouace

04/02/2008, 21:36

*shrugs*

Don't really see the problem or any surprise at WK's action. Besides it's not like most of us go over there on any regular basis anyhow.

Haroudo Xavier

04/02/2008, 21:37

Well, Hair10, welcome to the club. :)

Miraclo

04/02/2008, 21:44

I'm just thrown that a Consumer Experience Representative openly regards emails concerning a point of customer dissatisfaction as "no-content items."

thebigZZZZZ

04/02/2008, 21:48

The WK forum - I have lost my interest there because they are so brown-nosing and it sent the chills up my back. Never liked that forum so I kept coming here because HCR is the most warming and welcoming site I have ever been to. Hair10 - you are still welcome here in HCR and don't worry about WK forum. You have our support! You go!

hair10

04/02/2008, 21:49

I'm just thrown that a Consumer Experience Representative openly regards emails concerning a point of customer dissatisfaction as "no-content items."
I think he was refering to the fact that I'm advocating sending the WF coupons back along with letters to the new BM. I think that's what he's calling "no-content items".

Kaitouace

04/02/2008, 21:51

I'm just thrown that a Consumer Experience Representative openly regards emails concerning a point of customer dissatisfaction as "no-content items."

I'd say that the "no-content" items refer to the link suggesting people to mail their coupons back to WK en masse. And considering the initial post said that the topic creator or whoever had the issue was contacted by WK already, there was no purpose to get involved especially if it involved posting emails to the company. If there was no response and the guy was asking "what should I do" that's a different issue. But WK contacted him and was apparently handling the issue. For someone else to start posting possible contradictory information and on top of that, link to an unofficial forum suggesting to bombard WK with what basically amounts to pointless spam..........

webhead817

04/02/2008, 21:57

My official stance? Well, as a CSR for the company I work for... if someone figured out my work email (and not the generic 'customer service' email address) and posted it to a public forum? Um, yeah, I'd be pretty hot about that. So there's that.

Hair10, mighty solver of the cryptic FIRSTNAME.LASTNAME@COMPANYNAME.COM email address puzzle.

I hear he's working on FIRSTINITIALLASTNAME@COMPANYNAME.COM next.

AbeSapien

04/02/2008, 21:58

This is one of the reasons that I've stopped buying bricks and bulk orders of any kind. I'm also not playing in tournaments, or sending away for offers, or buying starters....wait...am I even part of this hobby anymore?

Either way it clearly doesn't matter to wizkids if customers are dissatisfied or rather they clearly have such poor organizational skills and such limited power to fix problems that they would rather not deal with it at all.

hair10

04/02/2008, 22:06

Hair10, mighty solver of the cryptic FIRSTNAME.LASTNAME@COMPANYNAME.COM email address puzzle.

I hear he's working on FIRSTINITIALLASTNAME@COMPANYNAME.COM next.
Best. post. ever.

:laugh:

T. Paul Stiles

04/02/2008, 22:09

Mate. At least you got an explination of why you got your ban.

Mine was just...

You are banned from blah blah blah.

Ban to be lifted: Never.

Reason: UNSPECIFIED!!!

hair10

04/02/2008, 22:10

and on top of that, link to an unofficial forum suggesting to bombard WK with what basically amounts to pointless spam..........
Yes, God forbid any of us should give tangible 'voice' to our dissatisfaction. Nobody should ever write to a company from which they purchased product. :rolleyes:

But looking at your sig line and knowing 'your stance' on anything that might remotely not toe the WK line, I don't really expect you to understand.

malakim2099

04/02/2008, 22:15

Hair10, mighty solver of the cryptic FIRSTNAME.LASTNAME@COMPANYNAME.COM email address puzzle.

I hear he's working on FIRSTINITIALLASTNAME@COMPANYNAME.COM next.

Wow. Way to go, big guy. Your grasp of my post's intent is great, particularly when I state IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH OF THAT SAME POST that WK overreacted to this. :rolleyes:

If someone doesn't give permission to post their email in a post, you shouldn't do it. Period. I don't care if it is blatantlyobvious@duh.com, you just Don't Do It.

Which still doesn't take away the fact that while Hair10 probably shouldn't have posted it, WK shouldn't have banned him just for that.

EDIT: I love the fact that I'm getting blasted when I'm a fence-sitter. What? I have to be blindly ideological for or against WK to participate in talks here?

hair10

04/02/2008, 22:19

I didn't think he was "blasting" you. It was a bit of sarcastic humor... no more, no less. :classic:

webhead817

04/02/2008, 22:20

Wow. Way to go, big guy. Your grasp of my post's intent is great, particularly when I state IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH OF THAT SAME POST that WK overreacted to this. :rolleyes:
---
EDIT: I love the fact that I'm getting blasted when I'm a fence-sitter. What? I have to be blindly ideological for or against WK to participate in talks here?

I wasn't aiming that at you...if all WK emails are setup the same way, knowing someone's name = knowing their email address.

Besides, I'm on the other side of the fence anyway, I haven't botten a 'Clix in like three years. :)

malakim2099

04/02/2008, 22:26

I didn't think he was "blasting" you. It was a bit of sarcastic humor... no more, no less. :classic:

I can't handle sarcasm after waking up at 5:30am and dealing with a stressful job interview with a panel of four interviewers asking me wacky questions!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :mad: :mad: :mad: :angry: :confused:

:p

Kaitouace

04/02/2008, 22:30

Yes, God forbid any of us should give tangible 'voice' to our dissatisfaction. Nobody should ever write to a company from which they purchased product. :rolleyes:

But looking at your sig line and knowing 'your stance' on anything that might remotely not toe the WK line, I don't really expect you to understand.

Ah ha ha. Real funny. Typical "oh he just loves WK to death" comment. Not like I haven't heard that before. I liked Tuttle and he's gone so that's not a viable issue anymore.

Sorry if I wasn't more sympathetic in your weekly "Look how WK's wronged me THIS time" thread but it's ridiculously obvious why you were banned in this case (and judging by some of your other posts in this thread, you know that as well) and if WK didn't give the guy any response you'd have plenty of reason to step up to the plate as I mentioned.

A shame WK doesn't want a former and possible disgruntled employee giving information to their customers on their forums after their current employees said they were handling the issue. The whole "Perhaps you'd like to join us on our spam their mailbox campaign" addition was just the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

hair10

04/02/2008, 22:44

A shame WK doesn't want a former and possible disgruntled employee...
I was never an employee. As for 'disgruntled'... Tuttle is gone. I'm happy as a clam. :classic:

Tarnish

04/02/2008, 22:45

Honestly I'd assumed you'd been banned from the WK forum a while back :nervous:

Not like anyone ever posts there except for rule reasons and such. I'm tempted to go sign in for the 1st time in about 5 years just to see how bad it still is..... or not.

Tarnish

absolutvt69

04/02/2008, 22:48

I don't think the "why does he use his personal email to correspond" thing is a good defense. He probably has his email set up to send it that way (most companies do). Maybe the generic consumer email routes a different way. Maybe it goes into a queue that distributes them equally amongst customer service reps. Or maybe the guy just doesn't want to get a bunch of spam or threats from customers any time something happens that they don't like. I totally get why he wouldn't want his email posted. When I worked in retail I didn't like when people asked me for my full name. I had a nametag on with my first name and that should be enough. So I understand why he wouldn't want that. Now is that a bannable offense? On its own, probably not. But let's face it, this isn't the first time Hair and WK have butted heads and maybe this was just the last straw or something. I'd imagine a regular poster with no "history" would have just gotten a warning and the post removed. Another thing to consider was the topic was pretty inflammatory from the getgo... someone demanding WK refund him .41 for the cost of a stamp b/c he didn't get a World's Finest.

NucGhost

04/02/2008, 22:49

I was never an employee. As for 'disgruntled'... Tuttle is gone. I'm happy as a clam. :classic:

But if clams are so happy, then why do they hide from the world in their shell???:confused:

Kaitouace

04/02/2008, 22:52

I was never an employee. As for 'disgruntled'... Tuttle is gone. I'm happy as a clam. :classic:

Right. Volunteer. But with much more insight on how things went down in WK as opposed to the average person. Point still stands. The "disgruntled" deal seems pretty constant, Tuttle or not. Happy as a clam? Could have fooled me. But I digress......

My only point was that no one should be surprised at the result of your post. It was hardly a "simple straightforward message". I had no intention of going any further until the tired "Oh he's just a kissup" line showed up. It gets REAL old to be called a sycophant just because I don't see every business decision as a stab in the back.

Kaitouace

04/02/2008, 22:57

I don't think the "why does he use his personal email to correspond" thing is a good defense. He probably has his email set up to send it that way (most companies do). Maybe the generic consumer email routes a different way. Maybe it goes into a queue that distributes them equally amongst customer service reps. Or maybe the guy just doesn't want to get a bunch of spam or threats from customers any time something happens that they don't like. I totally get why he wouldn't want his email posted.

That's how it worked at my old job. We had a generic email route that would go to me and either I'd handle it or send it to the appropriote person. From there I'd just use my regular email to correspond with the person who had the issue. However that doesn't mean that I'd want my direct email posted on a public message board for everyone and anyone to use for anything they saw fit to email me about. I got enough random emails about the Civil War, the Bermuda Triangle, or racist joke emails around MLK Day without it being public.

The same goes for the phone. When we get a patron who would love to call a specific person for "advice" all the time it's not fair game to just say "well if you want to just randomly call them 20 times a day, here's their direct phone number".

T. Paul Stiles

04/02/2008, 23:30

"What kind of a sycophant are you?"

"Well, what kind of a sycophant do you want me to be?"

hair10

04/02/2008, 23:32

I don't think the "why does he use his personal email to correspond" thing is a good defense. He probably has his email set up to send it that way (most companies do). Maybe the generic consumer email routes a different way. Maybe it goes into a queue that distributes them equally amongst customer service reps. Or maybe the guy just doesn't want to get a bunch of spam or threats from customers any time something happens that they don't like. I totally get why he wouldn't want his email posted.
Fair enough... all valid points. But he could have simply edited the post to remove his email and replace it with the generic one. The overall response was a bit... extreme. I especially like the part about inciting an illegal campaign in violation of federal law. :laugh:

It gets REAL old to be called a sycophant just because I don't see every business decision as a stab in the back.
So... how does that shoe feel now that it's on the other foot? :devious:

Kaitouace

04/02/2008, 23:40

So... how does that shoe feel now that it's on the other foot? :devious:

I've been called a kiss-up just about as long as you've been called otherwise. I just tend to not find a need to make topics defending WK every other day. So I at least have that going for me. :)

hair10

04/02/2008, 23:44

I just tend to not find a need to make topics defending WK every other day.
Make? No. Post on? Yep.

;)

Kaitouace

04/02/2008, 23:51

Make? No. Post on? Yep.

;)

Just adding to the discussion. Not nearly enough "Devil's Advocates" around here anyway. Not that I'm posting purely to have a dissenting opinion.

Besides, posting in maybe 5 threads total since the whole WF fiasco started ain't that bad.

Nighthawk

04/02/2008, 23:51

If he doesn't want people to know it, then why does he use it for correspondence? When I was in a support position where I worked, I NEVER used my personal email when talking with customers. I always replied back through the generic account. :confused:

But you're right... I do seem to have a way with folks sometimes. :laugh:

Rep 4 U, keep sticking it to the MAN!!!!!

and you do seem to have a way with people...:)

Entertainer13

04/02/2008, 23:54

I'm sorry, but if the man uses the e-mail in regular correspondence with customers, its his fault. Period.

Daky

04/02/2008, 23:58

I just sent Eric an Email.
I am not of the WK forums so they can't ban me there.
It was not mean or used any bad language.
I'll let you know if I get a response.
I will continue to email him once a week if he doesn't.

evereadyhdst

04/03/2008, 00:05

well...if the issue is "no-content" in mailings, the I guess we will just have to write letters and mail them without coupons. Nothing REMOTELY illegal about sending genuine correspondence to a company you do business with :)

hair10

04/03/2008, 00:06

I will continue to email him once a week if he doesn't.
Would that be considered a "no-content" message. Better be careful, he's got federal law on his side. :rolleyes:

:p

well...if the issue is "no-content" in mailings, the I guess we will just have to write letters and mail them without coupons. Nothing REMOTELY illegal about sending genuine correspondence to a company you do business with :)
Exactly! If Mr. Englehard had bothered to actually read the thread that I linked to here on the forums he would have seen that I advocate writing a letter in addition to simply sending the coupon in.

Level 4 Death

04/03/2008, 00:18

Mod Edit - This account has been banned for the following reason:

Creating a second account just so you could anonymously (cowardly?) harass Hair10. So this account and your original 'Void Ronin' account are banned. Ironic, no? That you get yourself banned on a thread about someone else getting banned?

Hair we get it, your bitter you don't need to explain it anymore. So please stop leting us know at every interval what wk has done to wrong you, so they let you be RA for a bit longer then what they normally do and replaced you with a total tool, we got it. Even the people I play with think your bitter and just don't care.

hair10

04/03/2008, 00:20

Hair we get it, your bitter you don't need to explain it anymore. So please stop leting us know at every interval what wk has done to wrong you, so they let you be RA for a bit longer then what they normally do and replaced you with a total tool, we got it. Even the people I play with think your bitter and just don't care.
Says the guy who just joined 2 minutes ago just to post on this thread? :rolleyes: Forgive me if I don't take your comments to heart. :p

In the words of Bill Cosby... "Who is this really?"

:laugh:

StormX

04/03/2008, 00:22

I will continue to email him once a week if he doesn't.

....why?

Just to show you can harass someone?

You're basically just justifying WK for banning Hair then.

Tarnish

04/03/2008, 00:22

Hair we get it, your bitter you don't need to explain it anymore. So please stop leting us know at every interval what wk has done to wrong you, so they let you be RA for a bit longer then what they normally do and replaced you with a total tool, we got it. Even the people I play with think your bitter and just don't care.

For this you registered and made a 1st post?
I'd say that is just about as bad as what you accuse Hair10 of.

Tarnish

Tarnish

04/03/2008, 00:25

....why?

Just to show you can harass someone?

You're basically just justifying WK for banning Hair then.

Eh I'd do the same thing. It'd have nothing to do with harassment or it being WK. If I e-mailed any company about an issue and received no response after a week I'd email again. Following up once a week would hardly be harassing.

Tarnish

Komixfrk75

04/03/2008, 00:26

antedoX

04/03/2008, 00:40

Hair, you're more than welcome to use MY Wizkids login. Lord knows I never do :p

wyld

04/03/2008, 00:40

Hair we get it, your bitter you don't need to explain it anymore. So please stop leting us know at every interval what wk has done to wrong you, so they let you be RA for a bit longer then what they normally do and replaced you with a total tool, we got it. Even the people I play with think your bitter and just don't care.
Thank you....Rep to you........

Oh, so that's who you are.

--and probably someone else with 2 posts on that other WF thread...
wyld

Komixfrk75

04/03/2008, 00:47

Oh, so that's who you are.

--and probably someone else with 2 posts on that other WF thread...
wyld

Nope.....I only have one name on here....I have no reason to hide behind another to make my comments.

Phantom

04/03/2008, 01:00

Accusing Hair of trying to file an illegal mail campaign is pathetic and petty on WK's part. I'd love to see WK try to explain how organizing a campaign of their customers to send promotional certificates to the company headquarters to register your complaint with how that promotion was handled could be considered as non-business related. They would get laughed out of court.

Marshal Law

04/03/2008, 01:01

Anyway, I try to log back in to reply to Mr. Engelhard and I get this...
You have been banned for the following reason:
Both posting private email addresses, and trying to incite an illegal mail campaign in violation of federal law

Date the ban will be lifted: Never

Posting private email addresses without explicit permission is considered poor netiquette by every standard I've been aware of in my 20+ years online, I can't say I'm overly surprised by the response. At the very least you should have expected the post to be deleted or edited, a temporary ban should not have been unexpected. A permanent ban is over the top, but given your tempestuous history with WizKids I'm only surprised they didn't go nuclear months ago. You've got cause to be ticked with them, but you've also pushed the big red WizKids button like it was a lottery ticket dispenser. Others have lost their envoy status for far less.

On the legality of the mail campaign, Engelhard needs to put a little less faith in that Internet law diploma hanging on his wall that he sent away $12.95 plus shipping and handling for (fortunately for him, it wasn't a limited supply offer). Last I checked such mail campaigns have to intimidate or threaten personal harm, have the primary intent to cause a significant disruption of normal business operations, or intend to use Postal Services to commit fraud. Consumer dissatisfaction mailings, fortunately for First Amendment advocates, don't qualify. But then I've found its common for stuffed suits to huff and puff about what is and isn't legal based solely on taking a personal dislike to an issue, by assuming that having a team of lawyers at their disposal means they get to decide what is legal. Sadly in far too many instances, they are effectively correct.

daved

04/03/2008, 01:24

Exactly! If Mr. Englehard had bothered to actually read the thread that I linked to here on the forums he would have seen that I advocate writing a letter in addition to simply sending the coupon in.

Not on the first post, you don't. Now, sure, if he had dug through the 35 page thread to find the one or maybe two posts you mention sending letters, then you might have a point.

mike_houghton

04/03/2008, 01:27

lol banned..thats awesome... u should put that in your sig line...
I love how they made u out to be a criminal though :P SLANDER!

Ed0825

04/03/2008, 01:31

I think he was refering to the fact that I'm advocating sending the WF coupons back along with letters to the new BM. I think that's what he's calling "no-content items".

Actually, a friend of mine suggested a good idea. Someone should collect all the UPCs and Coupons from this fiasco from everyone that had them returned and dump them right in their lap again at the booth in one of the upcoming cons. Of course have people with cameras in hand to photograph the moment for all.

mike_houghton

04/03/2008, 01:41

Actually, a friend of mine suggested a good idea. Someone should collect all the UPCs and Coupons from this fiasco from everyone that had them returned and dump them right in their lap again at the booth in one of the upcoming cons. Of course have people with cameras in hand to photograph the moment for all.
that could be battery couldnt it? lol i wouldnt suggest anything physical

mike_houghton

04/03/2008, 01:57

HeroClix has been getting a power adjustment in the last years, but this is simply part of the evolution of the game. Many of our earlier figures were low point value and had a “glass jaw” and didn’t really accurately portray the endurance and power of some of the characters. The costing formula has not changed in any significant way since the beginning of the game.

Crisis selling out was not expected. The quantities have to be determined long in advance, and it sold in an entirely different range than what we were expecting based on the performance of past sets. We would love to have more product to sell. Really, we would. We did have several different initiatives which contributed in different ways to the quick sell out.

Our sculpts and paints today are in my opinion, much better than they have been in the past. With oil prices as high as they are and our figures made of plastic, we feel we have maintained the best level of quality possible, and that it has generally improved with each set.

A response to some of the WF issues is being drafted.

Thanks!

-Eric Engelhard
WizKids Consumer Experience Representative
did anyone else see this

charlesx

04/03/2008, 02:13

A response to some of the WF issues is being drafted.

Thanks!

-Eric Engelhard
WizKids Consumer Experience Representative

What the heck is this, another opportunity for WK to shout out "Expect anything!" !!??? Spin city, baby! Spin city! My chain doth not want to be yankedeth any longer - especially by WK, yo. Just saying.

T. Paul Stiles

04/03/2008, 02:13

Hair we get it, your bitter you don't need to explain it anymore. So please stop leting us know at every interval what wk has done to wrong you, so they let you be RA for a bit longer then what they normally do and replaced you with a total tool, we got it. Even the people I play with think your bitter and just don't care.

Better listen to the guy that's joined in the last four days and has posted once. He's the new sherrif in forum-post-town :devious:

Thank you....Rep to you........

And the deputy :devious:

BWA-HA-HA-HA!!!!

T. Paul Stiles

04/03/2008, 02:14

What the heck is this, another opportunity for WK to shout out "Expect anything!" !!??? Spin city, baby! Spin city! My chain doth not want to be yankedeth any longer - especially by WK, yo. Just saying.

Rep, just for talking crazy :)

HappyTrain

04/03/2008, 02:17

A response to some of the WF issues is being drafted.

Thanks!

-Eric Engelhard
WizKids Consumer Experience Representative
did anyone else see this
The first 500 complaints will be taken seriously with purchase of $50 in Indy Clix Starters. All other complaints will be redirected to Sony Entertainment for immiedate disposal.

CarlosMucha

04/03/2008, 02:18

"You have been banned for the following reason:
Both posting private email addresses, and trying to incite an illegal mail campaign in violation of federal law

Date the ban will be lifted: Never "

HOLLY...!.

WOW. They were just waiting for you, Hair.

CarlosMucha

04/03/2008, 02:20

Now Hair. Come on. Why you don't buy me my Voodo dools once for all???

charlesx

04/03/2008, 02:22

Now Hair. Come on. Why you don't buy me my Voodo dools once for all???

Because they are Bratz voodoo dolls and it's scary to use them???? :laugh:

CarlosMucha

04/03/2008, 02:25

Because they are Bratz voodoo dolls and it's scary to use them???? :laugh:

Come on! they are cute.

(I will keep Cloe for me, I like her so much! she is totally awesome! she talk too much, but still!)

Ilkimys

04/03/2008, 02:31

I would never have thought that Wizkids would be that petty. I know Hair10 has a special way of communicating but still.. I hope Wizkids takes this feedback into consideration when desiging new releases. Limiting BiBtB figures to 5000 pieces is just a HORRIBLE idea!

Saklas

04/03/2008, 02:42

Well I think that's a bunch of carp...and I let them know on the forums what carp it is....

Not like I ever go there anyway...;)

The BoyBlunder

04/03/2008, 06:40

I stopped going to the Wizkids forums a couple years ago, mostly because after they updated, my computer couldn't comprehend what was going on. I'm tempted to go over there and post something completly random and vulger in hopes of being banned.

Something like...

"I wonder if it is possible to **** a rope?"

Brand new thread, no quotes, nothing but that.

Of course I never would, seeing as how I STILL can't get to the site, but there would be a sense of closure to it.

AEONFLUX

04/03/2008, 07:15

I haven't been over there since I quit judging almost 3 years ago, so I go over and check it out and only one thing came to my mind.

Jonestown is definitely doing well, I only wonder what the official flavor of Kool-Aid is that they are either guzzling or just mainlining via IV.

sniksder

04/03/2008, 09:31

Hair we get it, your bitter you don't need to explain it anymore. So please stop leting us know at every interval what wk has done to wrong you, so they let you be RA for a bit longer then what they normally do and replaced you with a total tool, we got it. Even the people I play with think your bitter and just don't care.

What a snarky thing to do, create an account and hide behind it...

And some wonder why there are those who look down on the Wizkids apologist, no back bone to show your true name or face.

sol

04/03/2008, 09:58

Man, Hair...they really do hate you over there.

But look at the bright side...you ain't really missing anything by not posting on the WK general dscussion forums.

Tylk

04/03/2008, 10:18

I think this has to do with straws and camels backs.....

Nightangel3

04/03/2008, 10:25

Hair, I thought that you were a cool RA and the new guy I think is a horreble RA. Some rule just don't make sense but apart from that you need to let it go. Actually everyone just need to let it go. All this bashing is tiresome. In this conflict both parties are in the wrong. You for posting them and them for over reacting. Really just stop beating a dead horse. Now everyone can start bashing me for being honest and not taking a side.

anonym0use

04/03/2008, 10:26

There's a joke in here somewher. Help me find it.

Q: How can you tell if you're banned from the WK forums?
A: I'm never on, so I wouldn't know...

DCFan#1

04/03/2008, 10:32

hair10

04/03/2008, 10:38

Should I have posted the personal email address on the forums? In hindsight, probably not. But I honestly didn't even think twice about it. As Gacy's Clown has pointed out, it's been the practice of practically every WK employee to use their personal email address and to give that out to the 'clix community relatively freely. It just seemed the "normal" thing to do based on past history with the company.

It wasn't my intent to give the email address out so that he could be spammed or anything. I was simply trying to point the user I responded to in a direction which would get his voice heard. I had received a chase Superman figure that was missing a leg. I contacted Mr. Englehard after I was told that it couldn't be replaced. While I wasn't pleased with the outcome (WK still refused to replace the figure), I found Mr. Englehard very responsive to my concerns. My intent was only to share that experience with another customer who wasn't satisfied.

So posting the email address was probably not the best choice. But Mr. Englehard's response was extreme, to say the least. And the suggestion that I'm somehow trying to orchestrate a federal crime is laughable... both literally and figuratively. :laugh:

None of it really matters however. I came to a realization last night. It hit me that had this happened a couple of years ago, I likely would have been very upset by it. I would have appealed the banning and tried to get my 'sentence reduced'. But that was back in a time when the WK forums were still somewhat fun. Discussions could be had that weren't immediately removed because they were deemed "off topic" and you didn't have to always agree with every tiny decision that WK made. Warning points weren't handed out like candy on Halloween. Judge's weren't removed from the program for simply voicing concerns. It was a time when the WK employees actually listened and interacted with their forum users... their customers. Now? Now I really couldn't care less. The banning doesn't really bother me at all. The WK forums have turned into a totalitarian wasteland. Nothing moves for days because people aren't allowed to truly express themselves. You can skip the forums for a week and all the same threads will still be on the first page. It's become an outward and visable symptom of the overall problems that plague WK as a whole.

There's a reason that HCRealms has 4 to 8 times as many users as the entirety of the WK forums (which includes all the other game lines as well) logged on at any given time. And that reason is why I'm not missing the WK forum at all. :classic:

Artie Deco

04/03/2008, 10:41

Please do not post the personal email addresses of wizkids employees or others.
Oh my stars and garters.

If Mr. "Eric Engelhard" who works "at Wizkids Games" doesn't want anyone emailing him personally, he should have chosen a different email address. My 9 year old could have figured that email address out.

That is just brain dead stupid.

I was going to give you some "banned rep", hair10, but as usual ...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to hair10 again.

AZS edit: This is not a commentary on the thread or Hair10's banning, rather it is still proper 'nettiquete' not to post people's personal e-mail addresses. Eric was not the villian here, and should not suffer the backlash of e-mail that a post like this would create. As such, I have edited out his e-mail address.

Firestar07

04/03/2008, 10:43

If he doesn't want people to know it, then why does he use it for correspondence? When I was in a support position where I worked, I NEVER used my personal email when talking with customers. I always replied back through the generic account. :confused:

But you're right... I do seem to have a way with folks sometimes. :laugh:
well Hair sorry you got booted from a lame forum. i personaly never use the WK forums.

evereadyhdst

04/03/2008, 10:45

amen brother. I for one would rather have you posting over here anyway. The shortest way to actually get to voice an opinion and implement any kind of change appears to be on this site anyway. Viva la Realms!

AZS

04/03/2008, 10:49

Miraclo

04/03/2008, 10:51

I think he was refering to the fact that I'm advocating sending the WF coupons back along with letters to the new BM. I think that's what he's calling "no-content items" Yes, I understand that. A hectic (ongoing) work week saw me jumping in on this with a quick response. I should have referred to to mail rather than email in that instance, instead making a hasty slip as he apparently considers anything targeted specifically to him - via email or postal service - on the issue to be "no content."

I'd say that the "no-content" items refer to the link suggesting people to mail their coupons back to WK en masse. And considering the initial post said that the topic creator or whoever had the issue was contacted by WK already, there was no purpose to get involved especially if it involved posting emails to the company. If there was no response and the guy was asking "what should I do" that's a different issue. But WK contacted him and was apparently handling the issue. For someone else to start posting possible contradictory information and on top of that, link to an unofficial forum suggesting to bombard WK with what basically amounts to pointless spam..........
See above.

It had little to nothing to do with the lone, specific case of the OP aside from letting him know what others hit with the same problem were doing to express dissatisfaction.

And, again... "pointless spam"? I'm not buying that.

Really, my only reasons for not wanting to send my coupon, UPCS and receipt to them in protest is the chance that someone at Wizkids might be working on a PR move to allow people to redeem them for either a new production run or something else, and who knows if I'd get back what I'd sent in through, what, a non-approved/non-solicited route?

For now, though, we who are dissatisfied can at the very least go the official route, as Mr. Engelhard himself suggested, and email consumer.experience@wizkidsgames.com with our thoughts concerning the BBB program and the way WF was handled specifically. Such should be concise and avoid anything abusive - cross any such line and it'll likely be used as a pretext for dismissing everything else said - but definitely letting them know how this casts a damaging light on the brick program and is influencing future purchasing decisions.

I definitely don't think that that should preclude taking advantage of any other avenues for sending mail about it to the company. Actual, physical mail - especially in volume - still has a stronger psychological impact than email. This is in part to it being conceptually louder, since several people are likely to see it. Hundreds of envelopes are far more visible than thousands of emails sitting in someone's inbox. The intention is to call attention to the problem, which, frankly, almost always means to create an embarassment for someone. Much as intense discomfort and even pain is often necessary to get people to seek medical attention, creating an uncomfortable situation for someone is sometimes the only way to really get action.

So, that's my say on this. No time for anything else today, as I have my own work to get back to.

hair10

04/03/2008, 10:55

MattMinus

04/03/2008, 11:03

Mod Edit - This account has been banned for the following reason:

Creating a second account just so you could anonymously (cowardly?) harass Hair10. So this account and your original 'Void Ronin' account are banned. Ironic, no? That you get yourself banned on a thread about someone else getting banned?

Hair we get it, your bitter you don't need to explain it anymore. So please stop leting us know at every interval what wk has done to wrong you, so they let you be RA for a bit longer then what they normally do and replaced you ...

I don't kow why you would need to create a sock puppet to say someting so self-evident.

Anyway, to all the people who comlplain about WK's quality control, it looks like that's improving at least ;)

hair10

04/03/2008, 11:06

Really, my only reasons for not wanting to send my coupon, UPCS and receipt to them in protest is the chance that someone at Wizkids might be working on a PR move to allow people to redeem them for either a new production run or something else, and who knows if I'd get back what I'd sent in through, what, a non-approved/non-solicited route?
Then please at least write them so that maybe something will change in the future. And you could always send a photocopy of your returned coupon. ;)

W10002

04/03/2008, 11:11

Like any company that grows as time passes...they become viewed as the Evil Empire.

Anyways, sorry to hear about your ban. I seriously thought it was gonna happen earlier.

I was just kinda surprised about their concerns regarding the legallity of sending mass e-mails and what not. It's not fraud as it's not scamming anyone, and it's not really illegal. There's tons and tons of times where companies would get spammed with negative mail and what not. What if it was positive? Wouldn't the company LOVE to get ton and tons of positive mail? No company likes to deal with negative pressure from the public, and this is all an attempt to curb or avoid negative backlash directly.

I was telling others [when rumors started to fly about the March 5th deadline] that we all need to send mail or an e-mail directly to those in power. Sending it to a generic e-mail will not get you anywhere. If anyone visits the website Consumerist, and hear testimonials from those who were very dissatisfied with a company, it's pretty evident that sending negative mails is the most effective way to bring those higher in powers into reality. Like the one time this person contacted Bill Gates directly about the problems with the XBox 360...it only brings the reality of how the consumers feel about the company and prodcut directly to those who matters.

AbsoluteRob

04/03/2008, 11:16

Hair,

I tried to find your post but apparently the powers-that-be at the WK forum removed it. Unfortunately, that means we can't see it for ourselves to assess the content and whether or not it was might incite an illegal mail campaign that is in violation of federal law. That said, I agree with what WK said about posting private e-mail addresses in a public forum.

Posting an individual's private e-mail address in a public forum is a huge faux pax and alone a valid reason for your ban. A representative using his/her private e-mail address for correspondence - even a company address - does not in any manner give the recipient permission to post it in a public forum. That you even think it does is troubling to say the least.

Robert

HCannonFodder

04/03/2008, 11:21

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to hair10 again.

I fail to see why you got banned - I think he's overly sensitive!!!

I still respect you, Hair!!!!

supremepontiff

04/03/2008, 11:26

I'm going to slaughter an alan moore quote and add it to my sig in honor of this awesome event.

"Customers souldn't fear their Gaming Companies... Gaming Companies should be afraid of thier Customers."

-R

FoxInStocks

04/03/2008, 11:26

WizKids has their own forum?

That's cute. :cheeky:

hair10

04/03/2008, 11:27

I tried to find your post but apparently the powers-that-be at the WK forum removed it. Unfortunately, that means we can't see it for ourselves to assess the content
Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, my word on what I posted is all I have. :ermm:

and whether or not it was might incite an illegal mail campaign that is in violation of federal law.
Well, that part you can see since it right here on HCRealms. My post on the WK forums simply linked them to this thread (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227846).

That you even think it does is troubling to say the least.

You haven't gotten through the entire thread, have you? ;)

darthfatty

04/03/2008, 11:31

It's one thing for them to ban you because they don't want you there. Fine, they're tired of the same old song you sing. And it's their forum so they don't really have to justify it.
But making up things and trying to sound like there's some higher justification for what they're doing is just puerile.
There is no "federal law" against a mail campaign. If there were, tv shows like Jericho wouldn't have been saved last year with a mail in campaign.
I'd have suppored this mod (in principle, if not necessarily in action) up until he pulled this out of his ### and in the process ended up sounding like one too.

I'd support this mod (in principle) up until he pulled this out of his ###:

"There is no "federal law" against a mail campaign. If there were, tv shows like Jericho wouldn't have been saved last year with a mail in campaign."

First, the only thing this proves is that the network chose not to press charges or couldn't find a culpable instigator/organizer.

Second, "shows like Jericho" implies that this has happened more than once, with successful results. Evidence of said implication?

Finally, Jericho wasn't saved. It returned briefly, and was canceled again. The peanuts campaign likely ended up quite costly to the network, with the man-hours involved in processing the peanuts added to the overhead of re-mounting an ultimately not profitable venture. In fact, it is possible that WizKids is using this very example as a reason not to pay any attention to such a campaign.

...and ended up sounding like an ###, in the process. ;)

darthfatty

04/03/2008, 11:33

You haven't gotten through the entire thread, have you? ;)

Which, as anyone can plainly see, makes the facts that he brings up totally irrelevant.

Wait, almost forgot. ;)

JackAssterson

04/03/2008, 11:52

Finally, Jericho wasn't saved. It returned briefly, and was canceled again.

Yes, it was, actually. Unless the episodes I saw were in fact cunningly redressed reruns of Quantum Leap Jericho sure as heck WAS saved, and it was saved by the mail campaign.

AZS

04/03/2008, 12:03

Second, "shows like Jericho" implies that this has happened more than once, with successful results. Evidence of said implication?Ok, so I give a relevant example, and you say "Well, I don't belive your one example unless you give me two more." What then? You'll say those don't count? Why then even bother debating with someone who ignores the facts.
I'm not out to prove anything to you, and just because you don't believe me, it doesn't invalidate the argument.

Fact of the matter; a mail campaign is not illegal, and has historically shown to be a sucessful method of customer response.

That isn't to say I'm endorsing the notion, in this case I don't think there's much to be done about the situation. But if people wanted to support it, I wouldn't get in the way either.

mike_houghton

04/03/2008, 12:07

Gentlegamer

04/03/2008, 12:14

Any WK employee's email address that goes to the @wizkidsgames.com domain is not a private email address. It is his work email address.

Gentlegamer

04/03/2008, 12:17

I'm just thrown that a Consumer Experience Representative openly regards emails concerning a point of customer dissatisfaction as "no-content items."Exactly. :confused:

sylvos

04/03/2008, 12:18

Thanks Hair for trying to provide the contact information for me. I didn't get to the thread in time to see your response, but I emailed the one that they posted instead.

For the record, I really have little to no expectation that it will be met with anything more substantial than a form reply at best. That's fine, it cost me maybe 30-45 minutes of time to put in the effort. If I get something of more substance, well I'll be pleasantly surprised.

I sent the letter simply because it is the way to do things. There are lots of people around who have tried, and been ignored or slapped down and I get that. I'm just looking to make sure I've gone the same route, with my own personality and approach to the communication, before I join the bandwagon of the disenchanted fully. Right now I'm on via a guest pass :)

Gentlegamer

04/03/2008, 12:23

Not nearly enough "Devil's Advocates" around here anyway. You mean WK Advocates? That's rich!

XocgX

04/03/2008, 12:26

Dude, I do high level tech support and DO use my 'personal' work e-mail. the user can initiate a call via the main generic line, but I reply through my own. If someone posted my personal e-mail address I'd be ready to swing =)

On the other hand, I've never posted it anywhere myself.

Back to the first hand, if a colleague of mine did, that doesn't make mine puclic as well....

I still love ya, though!

ChicagoAvenger

04/03/2008, 12:34

Any WK employee's email address that goes to the @wizkidsgames.com domain is not a private email address. It is his work email address.

Absolutely. I just read all eight pages of this thread to see if anyone else figured this out. It's not like Hair posted his personal email address, or his home phone number or address. Which I'd imagine wouldn't take long in our overly connected world.

If someone wants my work email, I'll post it here. Or better yet, Hair can do it because he has (or had) one of my business cards.

Gentlegamer

04/03/2008, 12:36

Ya, I tried working out an issue I had with that Eric guy. What an amazing tool he turned out to be! Needless to say I haven't been on the WK forums since. If he is the face of Wizkids "customer experience" then they'll be in business about three more months. He'd be better suited working for the DMV...because he cares that much... :confused:

Rich
Former Judge, forced out by the new order...Whoa, Rich! I know we have disagreed on game-play issues before, but I know your dedication to the game and Approved Play has always been great and an asset to the community. This is truly a sign of "bad things" happening in the WK/HeroClix world . . .

hair10

04/03/2008, 12:43

I just found this on the WK: HorrorClix forum. One of the Consumer Experience Reps (not Mr. Engelhard) is telling people to send him letters of support for HorrorClix in an effort to keep the game line from being cancelled. He's actually taking it upon himself to collect these letters and present it to the Brand Management team, which seems interested in seeing them.

If you guys want to express your opinions in letters, that's totally cool, but how about this: send them to me. I only suggest this to prevent confusion (which could arise from letters being sent in different directions to people who are unconnected to Horrorclix. I don't ignore snail-mail. I will make sure that your voices are heard.

Does this sound OK?
Hey guys

So I've been telling people around the office that I am expecting letters to come in. I have informed the Brand team, and they are looking forward to reading what you guys have to say.

So I guess this WK Rep is helping to violate federal law. I wonder how long it will be before Mr. Engelhard bans him from the forums?

:laugh:

ChicagoAvenger

04/03/2008, 12:49

Second, "shows like Jericho" implies that this has happened more than once, with successful results. Evidence of said implication?

Finally, Jericho wasn't saved. It returned briefly, and was canceled again. The peanuts campaign likely ended up quite costly to the network, with the man-hours involved in processing the peanuts added to the overhead of re-mounting an ultimately not profitable venture. In fact, it is possible that WizKids is using this very example as a reason not to pay any attention to such a campaign.

...and ended up sounding like an ###, in the process. ;)

Two words for your second example: Star Trek. It's why we got season three.

As for a couple more examples, I'm not sure if there were actual letter writing campaigns, but fan support brought Firefly back as the motion picture Serenity, and fan support got Farscape an opportunity to wrap up a few loose ends.

Just because you don't know about other examples doesn't mean they don't exist.

The one thing that I retained from my college logic course is that a valid argument built on a false premise is still false. In a related vein, couching ignorance of facts in a point by point argument still leaves you ignorant.

On the subject of Jericho, please define "saved." I consider the peanut mailing a smashing success as the fans of the show got to see the story advanced and brought to a much more fulfilling close. I was a casual fan of the first season and watched all seven of the episodes. It is a compelling story of what true citizenship can mean. I recommend the full first season and the shortened second season to anyone.

Hair, I can't believe they banned you for what I see as a minor breach of netiquette. Then again I think someone has already said, straw and a horse's back.

Now since you don't have a valid WizKids login, can you still participate in Organized Play (or is it Approved Play now, I can't remember)?

hair10

04/03/2008, 12:52

Now since you don't have a valid WizKids login, can you still participate in Organized Play (or is it Approved Play now, I can't remember)?
I still have a WK ID, I'm just banned from the forums.

Gentlegamer

04/03/2008, 12:54

Two words for your second example: Star Trek. It's why we got season three. Also: Quantum Leap

Phantom

04/03/2008, 12:59

can someone tell me how writing a company is illegal? Anyone? I didnt think so :) As long as it doesnt contain threats, harrasment or and overly aggresive tone, I dont see how it could be trouble at all.
Because he's from Western Washington. We're very passive-aggressive about this sort of thing. I think it's a side effect of the winter rains.

JackAssterson

04/03/2008, 13:03

Because he's from Western Washington. We're very passive-aggressive about this sort of thing. I think it's a side effect of the winter rains.

Or, as per the weather recently, the spring snows. :confused:

mike_houghton

04/03/2008, 13:04

Nightangel3

04/03/2008, 13:11

psmccormick

04/03/2008, 13:16

Rosswell on the WB was another that involve tabasco sauce.
Personally, I'm glad that Jericho got cancelled because I didn't get it. Now, how is FNL still on? I mean I like Scott on the show but the show it implies that all Texan are football fantics which isn't true.

You better watch your mouth before you get run outta Texas.

Dr. Morbius

04/03/2008, 13:18

Oh Boy. I love how you constantly put your finger where it hurts, Karl ;)
Thumbs up for that one, buddy!
However, this proves once again that WK's customer relations need a major upgrade, because it's been going downhill for quite some time.
Silencing people who politely address their dissatisfaction with certain things (e.g. WF distribution) is a slap in the face of loyal customers and not addressing the topic at all is even more so!!
There's no way WK will have me buying a brrick at a brick and mortar store with way too limited amounts of BibtB figures. Too bad for the stores, really.

absolutvt69

04/03/2008, 13:19

Oh my stars and garters.

If Mr. "Eric Engelhard" who works "at Wizkids Games" doesn't want anyone emailing him personally, he should have chosen a different email address. My 9 year old could have figured that email address out.

That is just brain dead stupid.

You realize of course that he most likely didn't CHOOSE his email address, it was most likely assigned to him by the IT department. Just about every job I've worked at, my email has been some form of my name at the company name.com.

And yes it is his company work email but it's his "direct" email. Kind of the same way there are direct phone lines vs the general support number. I would imagine most people wouldn't want their direct line posted publicly for disgruntled customers to call.

And I'm surprised it took so long for the first "Kool-Aid" reference to come up. Man do I get sick of that analogy/cliche/saying whatever you want to call it. If you want to criticize people for not thinking for themselves don't use a lame remark that required no thought on your part (as that basically makes you just like the people you're criticizing). Now someone just needs to throw in a "sheep" comment along with an "ostrich/head in the sand" reference and we can call it a day. I just hate that with some people it seems like you either have to agree with them OR you're WK's puppet, yes-man, sheep, Koo-Aid drinker, etc.

And some wonder why there are those who look down on the Wizkids apologist, no back bone to show your true name or face.

You realize this is the internet right? No one on here is showing their "true name or face" which is part of the reason the topic on the WK forum was so inflammatory. I just think it's naive and biased to pretend like the "WizKids apologists" are cowards hiding behind a computer when the same could be said for many of the "anti-WizKids" crowd as well. That's not something unique to one side of the opinion... it's a function of internet message boards in general.

Artie Deco

04/03/2008, 13:27

You realize of course that he most likely didn't CHOOSE his email address, it was most likely assigned to him by the IT department. Just about every job I've worked at, my email has been some form of my name at the company name.com.
Exactly. I'm just saying it's disingenuous to tell someone, "Don't give out my email address," when you give out your name (Mr. Engelhard signed his post with his real name). If you give out your name, and if people know where you work, then odds are they already know your email address, for the very reason you gave. If I told you I worked at Wal-Mart, and you wanted to email me, the first thing you would try is artie.deco@walmart.com. It's a no-brainer.

So the arguement that hair10 is being banned because he gave out Mr. Engelhard's email address is disingenuous at best. Stupid, in my opinion. Mr. Engelhard gave out his own email address himself as soon as he gave out his name.

(I don't get the Kool-Aid comment, I'm assuming that wasn't directed at me....)

absolutvt69

04/03/2008, 13:34

Exactly. I'm just saying it's disingenuous to tell someone, "Don't give out my email address," when you give out your name (Mr. Engelhard signed his post with his real name). If you give out your name, and if people know where you work, then odds are they already know your email address, for the very reason you gave. If I told you I worked at Wal-Mart, and you wanted to email me, the first thing you would try is artie.deco@walmart.com. It's a no-brainer.

So the arguement that hair10 is being banned because he gave out Mr. Engelhard's email address is disingenuous at best. Stupid, in my opinion. Mr. Engelhard gave out his own email address himself as soon as he gave out his name.

(I don't get the Kool-Aid comment, I'm assuming that wasn't directed at me....)

I get that it's easily guessed but I guess I just see a difference in someone willingly giving out their contact info vs having it given out for them. If I give someone a business card that's one thing. If someone else posts my name, phone number, address, etc. all over town, that's a completely different story. The first situation doesn't mean I'm ok with the second. And that's really what my point was. And I imagine hair10 was banned as a cumulative result of his "disagreements" with WK as opposed to this one situation. Is that fair? Probably not... but in the end it's WK's forum and they can do what they want. Just like I'm sure there are plenty of users here that feel they were banned unjustifiably.

And the Koo-Aid comment was not directed at you... I just couldn't find the post I saw this morning so I didn't quote it. And honestly it's not really directed at that person either. I just hate the saying in general (along with "jumping the shark") because it seems to come up any time someone has an opinion that agrees with or supports a company, administration, etc. Sorry for any confusion.

mike_houghton

04/03/2008, 13:45

You realize of course that he most likely didn't CHOOSE his email address, it was most likely assigned to him by the IT department. Just about every job I've worked at, my email has been some form of my name at the company name.com.

And yes it is his company work email but it's his "direct" email. Kind of the same way there are direct phone lines vs the general support number. I would imagine most people wouldn't want their direct line posted publicly for disgruntled customers to call.

And I'm surprised it took so long for the first "Kool-Aid" reference to come up. Man do I get sick of that analogy/cliche/saying whatever you want to call it. If you want to criticize people for not thinking for themselves don't use a lame remark that required no thought on your part (as that basically makes you just like the people you're criticizing). Now someone just needs to throw in a "sheep" comment along with an "ostrich/head in the sand" reference and we can call it a day. I just hate that with some people it seems like you either have to agree with them OR you're WK's puppet, yes-man, sheep, Koo-Aid drinker, etc.

You realize this is the internet right? No one on here is showing their "true name or face" which is part of the reason the topic on the WK forum was so inflammatory. I just think it's naive and biased to pretend like the "WizKids apologists" are cowards hiding behind a computer when the same could be said for many of the "anti-WizKids" crowd as well. That's not something unique to one side of the opinion... it's a function of internet message boards in general.

I disagree.. I show my true name and face :P

JackAssterson

04/03/2008, 13:48

Personally, I'm glad that Jericho got cancelled because I didn't get it.

What didn't you get?

(I don't get the Kool-Aid comment)

As well you shouldn't. "Drinking the Kool-Aid" means nothing save the guzzling of a drink. "Drinking the Flavor Aid" on the other hand, would refer to mass acceptance of a position a la Jonestown where they drank Flavor Aid laced with poison.

hair10

04/03/2008, 13:58

Kind of the same way there are direct phone lines vs the general support number. I would imagine most people wouldn't want their direct line posted publicly for disgruntled customers to call.
If you call WK you can access any employee through a phone directory.

You realize this is the internet right? No one on here is showing their "true name or face" which is part of the reason the topic on the WK forum was so inflammatory. I just think it's naive and biased to pretend like the "WizKids apologists" are cowards hiding behind a computer when the same could be said for many of the "anti-WizKids" crowd as well.
To a certain extent, I disagree. A good many of the people on these forums have met me in person. They know who I am. They've sat down and played a game with me or I've watched them play a game. On an internet message board I'm about as far from annonymous as you can get. ;)

I realize your comment was directed at me, per se, but you can't lump everyone into the same basket with blanket statements like that.

Saklas

04/03/2008, 14:06

wow I had a post deleted for pointing out the easy-ness of the guessing the formula of getting the email address

supremepontiff

04/03/2008, 14:19

"Drinking the Flavor Aid" on the other hand, would refer to mass acceptance of a position a la Jonestown where they drank Flavor Aid laced with poison.

thought that was Juicy Juice...

they drink Kool-aid in prisons tho, cause maybe if they drink enough of it, the kool-aid man will bust thru the wall or something.

-R

Boosnickerty

04/03/2008, 14:22

Create another account named Hair01 and see if they notice. :p

malger

04/03/2008, 14:23

psychoclown22

04/03/2008, 15:00

i give you props for doin it cause ive used that generic email 20 times or more and have never recieved one response back. even used the one for getting more maps and never recieved either a response or more maps. as for the brick figures ive learn its cheaper and easier to just trade for them. and im waiting for clix to die off anyway i was told before i started not to get into it to deep cause they have a way of running things into the ground. and here is another example. i keep seeing people talkin about how hair10 needs to get over it or hair10 needs to stop complaining. in my opinion he has the most room to complain he knows how wizkids runs and so it is easier for him to know the mistakes they are makin. i use to be fully behind this company but after all the changes and seein them treat alot of judges like they are pieces of meat that can just be tossed around ive lost faith in it really fast.

maybe someone should let them know this is volunteer work not slave labor.

CarlosMucha

04/03/2008, 15:11

There's a reason that HCRealms has 4 to 8 times as many users as the entirety of the WK forums

and each user here have 10.000 post more than over there too.

The carlosmucha over there have like less than 100 post!

Take that! carlosmucha from WK forums! :mad:

hair10

04/03/2008, 15:20

Frankly Hair10, you should know better than to post a WK employee's direct e-mail address in the forums. If I'm not mistaken, you made that clear when you were the RA. A permanent banning may be a bit more extreme of a sanction than you deserve considering your mail campaign wasn't actually crossing a line, IMHO, but you do know better than to post a personal e-mail address.
Somebody really should point out to Munchoboy (and others) that there is no rule about posting email addresses... at least not in the forum rules that are at the top of every forum. I keep seeing comments that "it was against the forum rules" so the banning was deserved. Well, it's NOT in the forum rules at all.

darius_dax1

04/03/2008, 15:36

and each user here have 10.000 post more than over there too.

The carlosmucha over there have like less than 100 post!

Take that! carlosmucha from WK forums! :mad:
Funniest thing you have posted ever.

psychoclown22

04/03/2008, 15:37

Somebody really should point out to Munchoboy (and others) that there is no rule about posting email addresses... at least not in the forum rules that are at the top of every forum. I keep seeing comments that "it was against the forum rules" so the banning was deserved. Well, it's NOT in the forum rules at all.
here you go hair 10 here is what i posted

Originally Posted by necrodog
Nothing but an e-mail address to send your complaints, threats of legal action in response to threats of illegal activities, and posts deleted for violating long-time forum rules.

Customer Service should respond to customer concerns. But an e-mail saying "I mailed my stuff two minutes after the store opened and I sent it priority, why didn't I get a figure and how much did I miss by?"? How exactly do they respond to that other than "we're sorry, we ran out befoe we received your order"? That calls for a level of research that's unreasonable.

This is true except you missed one thing. they dont answer the ones that they can. i emailed for more maps so i could run the tourny the way they wanted got nothing back. i emailed them with problems i was having with the site not working nothing emailed back. emailed them with questions on how certain things should be run nothing back. they dont care and banning people for stuff i can find out anywhere on the site is stupid and childish.

:

Originally Posted by caliban17
If you have feedback or complaints related to the BBB program, please contact:

consumer.experience@wizkidsgames.com

Please do not post the personal email addresses of wizkids employees or others. While letters of feedback are welcome, bombarding any business with no-content items via mail may be in violation of federal postal law, and will not be tolerated.

Be a man and answer questions and answer people and maybe people wouldnt have to post personal email addresses.(not really personal when they are posted on the site) maybe he should of just posted the link to the page on the site that showed the emails or posted links to forums where the person gave them out.

just another reason why wizkids is goin down the drain.

and necro i respect your responses but really when your the only one we hear from makes it kinda sad. i mean is that all that reads this site is the SouthEast Regional Envoy where is all the other regional envoys or how about some of the big wigs oh thats right they only post when they banned someone.

here is what i recieved after they deleted it. which took 10 seconds after postin it. mad how they can respond so fast when its to their benefit.

Hello;

This is a 0 Point Friendly Warning; I fail to see how your recent post (below) supports the Envoy Agreement wherein we consent to representing WK in a positive manner both publicly and online. I understand that we are all a little furstrated and that things are heated (really, I do get that ), but this doesn't mean we can allow our passions to get the best of us.

As Envoys we have a place where we can properly vent and share constructive criticism, but the public forums are categorically not the place to do so. Please post with greater care in the future!

-MB

so quess ill do just what i told him i would. never post on their again and just log in and do my events log out like a good little slave.

StormX

04/03/2008, 15:46

Gentlegamer

04/03/2008, 15:51

This is a 0 Point Friendly Warning; I fail to see how your recent post (below) supports the Envoy Agreement wherein we consent to representing WK in a positive manner both publicly and online.Ah, non-WK sunshine can only be posted in the Secret Council. :grin:

hawkeye55

04/03/2008, 16:08

If he doesn't want people to know it, then why does he use it for correspondence? When I was in a support position where I worked, I NEVER used my personal email when talking with customers. I always replied back through the generic account. :confused:

But you're right... I do seem to have a way with folks sometimes. :laugh:

Personal Email is one thing... my Yahoo or Hotmail is personal.

My work email is for work... if that's your ####ing job. Then your email address certainly isn't for personal use only.

Cheers to Hair.
#### the WK forum.

Phantom

04/03/2008, 16:18

Ah, non-WK sunshine can only be posted in the Secret Council. :grin:
They need to be very, very careful about that sort of thought policing, though.

I'm growing happier and happier that I didn't waste time applying for that WK customer service job when it was posted. Their management is absolutely clueless about how to interact with their consumer base in a mature, responsible, and adult manner. Muffling their volunteer customer representatives (envoys) is not going to help this.

Phantom

04/03/2008, 16:19

hair10

04/03/2008, 16:39

ahtitan

04/03/2008, 16:44

The original thread on the WK forums ("My $.41 back") was just closed by Munchoboy after Artie Deco pointed out that there was no WK policy about posting emails (thanks sir!). Looks like Muncho was caught in a "oh $#@%" moment and bailed by locking the thread.

:laugh:

In his defense, though, Munchoboy DID name himself after a delicious salty snack. He can't be all bad.

I wonder if his sidekick is Funyun Lad.

Artie Deco

04/03/2008, 16:44

Just doing what any good astromech droid would do. :)

Mmmmm.... Funyons. My favorite.

absolutvt69

04/03/2008, 16:47

The original thread on the WK forums ("My $.41 back") was just closed by Munchoboy after Artie Deco pointed out that there was no WK policy about posting emails (thanks sir!). Looks like Muncho was caught in a "oh $#@%" moment and bailed by locking the thread.

:laugh:

Honestly it should have been closed much sooner. It had gotten out of hand. There were plenty of insulting and disrespectful posts in there to justifying it being closed yesterday (at the latest).

Milo Garret

04/03/2008, 16:56

The original thread on the WK forums ("My $.41 back") was just closed by Munchoboy after Artie Deco pointed out that there was no WK policy about posting emails (thanks sir!). Looks like Muncho was caught in a "oh $#@%" moment and bailed by locking the thread.

:laugh:

Well he did say it could be discussed elsewhere. Just not in that thread.

"Alright guys, you want to debate policy and procedure and specifics and tandems, so be it. However, this is not the place to do so. "

AEONFLUX

04/03/2008, 17:06

What didn't you get?

As well you shouldn't. "Drinking the Kool-Aid" means nothing save the guzzling of a drink. "Drinking the Flavor Aid" on the other hand, would refer to mass acceptance of a position a la Jonestown where they drank Flavor Aid laced with poison.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JackAssterson again."

Bah! Details....

Munchoboy

04/03/2008, 17:29

In his defense, though, Munchoboy DID name himself after a delicious salty snack. He can't be all bad.

I wonder if his sidekick is Funyun Lad.

No, it's Funyun Lass ;)

Listen guys, regardless of how the issue is spun, Karl made a mistake (which he's as much owned up to). That WK banned him permanently was probably an over-reaction and like another User has pointed out, something to do with straws and camels. I dunno.

The original thread on the WK forums ("My $.41 back") was just closed by Munchoboy after Artie Deco pointed out that there was no WK policy about posting emails (thanks sir!). Looks like Muncho was caught in a "oh $#@%" moment and bailed by locking the thread.

:laugh:

I don't back-pedal much, if at all. I'm pretty comfortable with my position and reasoning;

Alright guys, you want to debate policy and procedure and specifics and tandems, so be it. However, this is not the place to do so.

I've tried to reasonably address folk's concerns and what-not, but it is pretty clear that some would rather grind axes and split hairs and are less interested in reasonable dialogue.

As such, this thread has deviated waaaaaaayyyy off topic. I was hoping that things would even themselves out, but we have the same users bringing us along in the same circles so...

As for the rules regarding e-mail and contact info privacy and what-not check out the Terms and Conditions (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/terms.asp?frame=company).

As someone else pointed out, the thread had lost it's way on about page 2 (of 6!). I'm an optimist (sometimes dumbly so), and I hoped that something resembling a reasonable dialogue would come of the whole endeavor.

I know I'm a Mod "over there" , and still an Envoy, but where's the love guys? Seriously, this is one of the reasons I stiopped coming here as frequently and why my posts are, like, one every 13 months or so. I suppose that makes me a flavor-aide loving apologist or some such..? :cheeky:

-MB

Kaitouace

04/03/2008, 17:31

You mean WK Advocates? That's rich!

In regards to this forum I fail to see the difference. :p

ChicagoAvenger

04/03/2008, 17:44

No, it's Funyun Lass ;)

Yes, true.

I suppose that makes me a flavor-aide loving apologist or some such..? :cheeky:

-MB

And the first step is admitting you have a problem. There are very good clinics for this kind of thing.

This being said in all possible humor and not any kind of dig. We all play and/or collect HeroClix so in some way we all advocate WK. Oooh, that's gotta smart a little for some of the "haters."

acapria

04/03/2008, 17:50

If you call WK you can access any employee through a phone directory.

Quick ban Hair10 for giving out the secret way to get a direct line to a CUSTOMER SUPPORT person!!!:p

Proving his place in clix once again over 4,000 views for this thread. I would hate to have someone that can garner this much attention in one day on my side.

They were just looking for an excuse Hair I wouldn't take it too hard. I got your back bud.

Marshal Law

04/03/2008, 17:54

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" means nothing save the guzzling of a drink. "Drinking the Flavor Aid" on the other hand, would refer to mass acceptance of a position a la Jonestown where they drank Flavor Aid laced with poison.

And so few people seem to know that little factoid. I'd rep you for it, but apparently I've already put something in the tip jar too recently.

Didn't stop Kool Aid sales from tanking at the time anyway. And after such a nice sales hike from the late 60's / early 70's when the in thing was to spike it with psychedelic drugs instead (convenient, that - you'd get stoned out of your skull drinking it, then you could trip out just staring at the day-glo colors of the drink itself).

Gacy's Clown

04/03/2008, 18:07

Well he did say it could be discussed elsewhere. Just not in that thread.

"Alright guys, you want to debate policy and procedure and specifics and tandems, so be it. However, this is not the place to do so. "

"Go over to the Realms if you want to debate these sorts of things...":cheeky:

hair10

04/03/2008, 18:07

As for the rules regarding e-mail and contact info privacy and what-not check out the Terms and Conditions (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/terms.asp?frame=company).
Nothing in there states that a company email address (even a 'personal' one) cannot be posted).

It was pointed out that I did not break the forum rules, you had no leg to stand on after stating that I did, and promptly bailed by closing the thread.

And I get accused of spinning things. :rolleyes:

I know I'm a Mod "over there" , and still an Envoy, but where's the love guys? Seriously, this is one of the reasons I stiopped coming here as frequently and why my posts are, like, one every 13 months or so. I suppose that makes me a flavor-aide loving apologist or some such..? :cheeky:

And the way you, the other mods, and the WK personal handle the forums are way so many more stopped going there.

Gacy's Clown

04/03/2008, 18:08

I think it's important to note that this was posted on March 26... 5 days after the sellout was officially announced and more than a week ago. And in typical WK fashion, we still haven't heard anything more about it.

Well, when you still have people like boneyard who didn't know any better, just bought a brick and sent in a coupon, why let the community know when you can still sell some bricks?:ermm:

Marshal Law

04/03/2008, 18:14

I know I'm a Mod "over there" , and still an Envoy, but where's the love guys? Seriously, this is one of the reasons I stiopped coming here as frequently and why my posts are, like, one every 13 months or so.

On the other hand, you probably get closer to a real reflection of the actual opinions of the customer base here than you do on the WizKids site. Its a lot harder to sort through, has a fair bit more noise to signal, but there is a lot to be said for using a forum that is more open as an information source for intelligent decision making. Rather than one that tends to filter out those that don't have a sympathetic mind set. Sometimes avoiding opinions you find disagreeable is the best option, and sometimes its simply short sighted avoidance of what could be a serious problem indicator.

Just consider the example of our current president on how successful a decision making strategy it is to limit your public discussions to people pre-screened for agreement with your policies.

m0rpheus

04/03/2008, 18:16

You know when I first saw this, and saw that hair10 created the thread, I was like "gee what a shock". Really though this is just stupid and way overreacting on WK part. I'd be willing to bet that they have wanted to ban you for some time and were just waiting for the slightest rules violation to justify doing so.

sepharris

04/03/2008, 18:23

My two cents on this: while mailing threatening or possible toxic substances through the mail is a federal offense (and I only mention this as some people both in the WK forums thread, and in the thread here on how things should be sent to WK corporate headquarters, have mentioned sending variations on those two things), it is not illegal to send feedback, complaints, or mail-ins. The bulk of people have been suggesting just sending feedback/xeroxes of their returned coupons, etc., and in no way is that illegal.

I can't really comment on any other matters, except to say that if people do send in their letters (as long as it isn't... um, "soiled" the way some have threatened), they do get passed on to the right people. Capt. Ramirez has been doing a fantastic job of running his custom HorrorClix event, and is very fastidious about his job.

MattMinus

04/03/2008, 18:35

Nothing in there states that a company email address (even a 'personal' one) cannot be posted).

It was pointed out that I did not break the forum rules, you had no leg to stand on after stating that I did, and promptly bailed by closing the thread.

I looked at the terms for all of about 2 seconds before I found this:

"These terms will terminate immediately without notice from WizKids Inc if in WizKids Inc's sole discretion you fail to comply with any term or provision of these terms."

See that "sole discretion" bit means that you broke the rules if they say you did.

So you're the one without a leg to stand on, and that's appropriate. While they don't explicitly state posting an email address, several of the terms could be reasonably construed to have been violated. And their construal doesn't even need to be reasonable. They shouldn't have to pay for you to have a forum for bashing them.

That's what the realms is for.

Gacy's Clown

04/03/2008, 18:39

Let's be honest here, Heather Mills doesn't have a leg to stand on...

szude

04/03/2008, 18:46

It gets REAL old to be called a sycophant just because I don't see every business decision as a stab in the back.

In my opinion, you're probably mostly called a sycophant because you have a product brand manager quote about you in your sig.

DS-00-0, FSD

04/03/2008, 18:47

Let's be honest here, Heather Mills doesn't have a leg to stand on...

And that's it for tonight's show. Thank you all for coming out and don't forget to tip your waitress.

Gacy will be performing at the Funnybone all weekend long so be sure to tell your friends!!

Gacy's Clown

04/03/2008, 18:49

Bring a WF and get in for free!

Hawk

04/03/2008, 19:30

Because I know everyone was here waiting with baited breathe for my 2 cents...LOL

The first thing that comes to mind is that just like in real life the cops can make up any reason for pulling you over. Yes they over-reacted. Its their perogative to do so. Just like real cops. Its their road and their forums. Thats why THESE forums exist.

The second thing that comes to mind is that I have noticed with Wizkids that if you give them a chance they usually fix most stuff to a certain degree. Cant get a Foom, or other Collosal, thats fine wait a while and bam! they decide to start letting venues sell the figs..for decently cheap too, I think. I think the WF will end up being a buy-it-if-you-want-it from the venues but not numbered. Just my opinion. Everytime I have seen some big "injustice" in the WK universe it creates a HUGE bunch of griping by a VERY vocal minority and then WK fixes it somehow. At least to minor degree.

The third thing that comes to mind is that if you dont like the company, stop buying their products. No company is gonna listen to customers that arent willing to leave.

I almost stopped playing clix here recently and then rememberd the reason I play...Its a GAME. Its fun! I like getting together with my local players, a great bunch of guys, and pretending we are in control of a SUPERPOWERED army and trying to defeat their superpowered army. Once you forget that its a game it isnt fun, if its all about business then where is the game? They are little pieces of plastic guys, the only value they hold is the value you imbue them with.

Having said all that I too have been shafted by WK. I was a L2 judge for Heroclix and got my judgeship yanked bc my venue couldnt keep my prize support safe. I got over it. I suggest all of you should too.

Roll them dice, hi five your buds and have some fun, whether it be in Heroclix or on a bike, in a softball game or whatever it is that brings you joy. Lifes too short to be bitter about plastic crack :)

The Mattador

04/03/2008, 19:33

Let's be honest here, Heather Mills doesn't have a leg to stand on...

Yeah, but now she's got the bread to buy one...hell, a real one for that matter! :p

Anyway, as for this thread and Hair's ban, I personally think WK needs to get a grip. They did what they had to do to sell bricks and have good first quarter numbers (which a vast majority on here do not understand) and they accomplished their mission. They are not going to change things and have proven time and again that they hate us. If they really cared about the customer/player base a lot of things would have happened sooner...not to mention that they would have sent the people who couldn't get a WF something...or even policed the fact that some people (myself included) got multiples...

Kaitouace

04/03/2008, 19:51

In my opinion, you're probably mostly called a sycophant because you have a product brand manager quote about you in your sig.

Which I have because I personally think it's cool when anyone that "high up" in the company refers to you by name. People can make assumptions about me personally because of that but we all know the saying about those who "assume".

Also on the WK Forums I have an extended version (as far as it could go) of various posters who started using that "nail on the head" comment for me whenever they agreed with what I said. It started with Tuttle but it went beyond him. There's just not enough room here to put them all on.