Outwit [Archive] - HeroClix Realms

Saklas

04/27/2008, 13:27

What with fortitude rampant as ever, and Power Cosmic and Quintessence, I'd say Outwit has it's counter balance already and doesn't need nerfing.

Having said that, being based on range balances it out, especially for 12 rangers. So if there were any option I would recommend it would be that one.

The Vision

04/27/2008, 13:28

It ain't broke...

Slade Wilson

04/27/2008, 13:35

ok already the point is if there had to be a change...

adam1der

04/27/2008, 13:38

IF there had to be a change, I'd go with the character's range to a default of 4. :cool:

The Vision

04/27/2008, 13:42

Poll needs a "leave it as it is option."

lensnart

04/27/2008, 13:45

Back in the day Outwit was a bit overpowered but it has been leveled out since. When I started playing we had a rule that you had to roll 4-6 to outwit, because it seemed so powerful, but five years later I honestly don't worry about outwit any more than I worry about super strength or RCE.

If it had to change I wouldn't be happy about it, but I guess I would go with 1.

darius_dax1

04/27/2008, 13:51

Leave it as is.

Ihsan

04/27/2008, 13:53

It sounds like someone doesn't like having their damage reducers countered...

But despite the wording of the survey, I must say "none of the above": leave Outwit as it is.

saturnflight

04/27/2008, 13:56

Make an option, "I don't think it needs to change". Your poll is currently going to give a very false impression.

AbeSapien

04/27/2008, 13:58

ok already the point is if there had to be a change...

People seem to be voting for range value capping, but my problem with that change is that there are many many characters that do not deserve a 10 range and yet are capable of countering powers from a long distance.

here's a short list of characters with a very short range that deserve longer range outwit:

Mr. Fantastic
Mr. Terrific
Spider-Man
Ra's al-ghul
Oracle
Calculator (unmade)
Arcade
Ant Man
Mysterio
Shaman
Batman
The Flash
Mary Marvel
Beast

Not a huge list, but there are certainly enough in this category (I'm sure there would be more if I looked) to make such a change awkward for some future dial creation.

I like the 4-6 better simply to balance the power across the board.

Slade Wilson

04/27/2008, 13:58

Make an option, "I don't think it needs to change". Your poll is currently going to give a very false impression.

my statement says if there was a change, you can simply not partcipate

JackAssterson

04/27/2008, 14:08

Vote: no change

CFGuy

04/27/2008, 14:14

Poll needs a "leave it as it is option."

This says it all!!

turdburglar47

04/27/2008, 14:15

GreatArelius1

04/27/2008, 14:19

Vote: No change.

JackAssterson

04/27/2008, 14:23

Yet, everyone still says "leave it alone." .

Which is rather telling, eh?

turdburglar47

04/27/2008, 14:35

As I said, that would be my choice, too, but this is like making a poll that says "If you had to eat cheese, which cheese would you eat?" and everybody responding with NOBODY SHOULD EVER EAT CHEESE!

disciple1976

04/27/2008, 14:40

Outwit doesn't need to be changed.

mightyGAHLAKTUS

04/27/2008, 14:49

ok...i voted to make it a power action, but i also liked using it at your range also. helping crisis darkseid and vet icons darkseid. but i would also like to see you role one d6 and result 4-6 you can use it for how many opposing characters you can target. could be stupid but also cool, depends on how you look at it.

saturnflight

04/27/2008, 15:02

my statement says if there was a change, you can simply not partcipate

As a sociology major, I have an interest in polls.
I can't see why you could POSSIBLY want to have a poll be less representative than it had the potential to be.

saturnflight

04/27/2008, 15:04

IF THERE HAD TO BE A CHANGE. This is the important part, included specifically to try and curtail the need for anyone to say "Leave it alone!"

Yet, everyone still says "leave it alone." Which I agree with, really, but there's no need to continually miss the point of the question.

The issue is, if a person read the results of this poll, they might think a ton of people believe in a change to Outwit. However, in reality many of those people were merely choosing the 'lesser of all evils'.

Wolverine_Hulk

04/27/2008, 15:10

If it had to change option 1. Just out of curiosity what inspired the idea for this poll?

techdog

04/27/2008, 15:24

For a long time I have been a proponent for all powers that require Line of Sight to be limited to the character's range. Perplex, PC, Outwit all should be subject to the area a figure can effect. If Batman can only throw a batarang 6 squares, he shouldn't be able to outwit someone 10 squares away. I guess I look at the range of the figure to be more then just how far they can throw their weapon, but how far they can effect the space around them. To say that everyone can see a default 10 range, doesn't make anysense why anyone would have a range over 10, cause how could you shoot farther then you can see or effect? I know, its logic, and this is heroclix and nary the two shall meet, but thats been my opinion.

Torpedo Vegas

04/27/2008, 15:36

I think it is more suprising that the second most voted for is power action. You would lose that playability of many hight point figures and would be stuck with low cost support figs.

turdburglar47

04/27/2008, 15:45

AbeSapien

04/27/2008, 15:50

As a sociology major, I have an interest in polls.
I can't see why you could POSSIBLY want to have a poll be less representative than it had the potential to be.

However its also important in polls to remove as many unneeded variables as possible.

Here he merely wants to know a preference given a hypothetical situation. By offering a "Leave it alone" option he would in essence be presenting an option to ignore the hypothetical, thus invalidating the whole purpose of the poll.

AbeSapien

04/27/2008, 15:55

The issue is, if a person read the results of this poll, they might think a ton of people believe in a change to Outwit. However, in reality many of those people were merely choosing the 'lesser of all evils'.

The only person that would interpret the outcome of the poll in such a way is someone who has no clue how to properly read polls.

Who would try to interpret data from a poll whose topic the reader didn't read/comprehend?

A more complete poll that would incorporate the current poll and also assuage your fears of possible misinterpreted data would most likely read like this:

Question #1: Do you think there needs to be a change to Outwit?
Yes/No

Question #2: If there HAD to be a change to Outwit, which of the following changes would you prefer?
A)
B)
C)
D)

That would collect the information of HOW people perceive the power and how it could be changed while also presenting a proper context for understanding the sampling size's desire for such a change.

gaj03

04/27/2008, 16:01

Where is the no change option

saturnflight

04/27/2008, 16:04

The only person that would interpret the outcome of the poll in such a way is someone who has no clue how to properly read polls.

Who would try to interpret data from a poll whose topic the reader didn't read/comprehend?

A more complete poll that would incorporate the current poll and also assuage your fears of possible misinterpreted data would most likely read like this:

Question #1: Do you think there needs to be a change to Outwit?
Yes/No

Question #2: If there HAD to be a change to Outwit, which of the following changes would you prefer?
A)
B)
C)
D)

That would collect the information of HOW people perceive the power and how it could be changed while also presenting a proper context for understanding the sampling size's desire for such a change.

Completely agree, which would be how I'd argue it should be presented, IF he didn't have a 1 poll per thread limit.
I'm just working off what he said himself:
my statement says if there was a change, you can simply not partcipate
In which case, the better situation would be that the non-changers (those he tells not to participate) have a category of their own, so that the poll can collect as much info as possible.
However, you're correct to present your 'best situation possible'.

ThePrinted6

04/27/2008, 16:33

I don't think Outwit needs changed necessarily, but if it were to be, one change I would like to see is a point cap on it... as in...

"A character may not use Outwit on a target with a cost 100 or more points higher than their own."

That way, good ol' 27 point Rookie Black Panther can't think he's hot soup by managing to get 261 point Doomsday to drop his pants for a sucker punch. This would definitely ease the incessant use of Fortitude, as your 261 point Doomsday is safe from the 'Wits of anyone less than 161 points, which to me, makes sense. The numbers don't necesssarily have to be 100 points difference... maybe 150 would work. That's not entirely arbitrary, either, as it is half the point total of a standard 300 point game. I appreciate the argument that "Outwit is how little teams beat the big guys," but as a fan of the beefers, I get really turned off by situations like Rookie Black Panther pantsing Doomsday.

saturnflight

04/27/2008, 16:47

Great argument. I'd be okay with that. Notable exception: archenemies?

Grumpygoat

04/27/2008, 16:58

Leave it as is.

But if there had to be a change?

Oh, well, in that case:

Outwit works as is. On a roll of 5-6, you can Outwit someone with Fortitude, the Power Cosmic, Quintessence, or any other power or ability that renders a character immune to Outwit.

malger

04/27/2008, 17:19

My preferred change isn't an option:

Outwit can only be used if a tokenable action has been given to this character. If no tokenable action is given, give this character a token.

Or also include: Damage reducers are downgraded to the next lower level (Impervious to Invulnerability to Toughness to no damage reducer).

Surfer13

04/27/2008, 19:34

I went with only works on a roll of 4-6.
A range limitation wouldn't be bad, but I am not sure that applying the mind control protocalls feels right. Spider-Man shouldn't have a less effective ability to trick someone than Iron Man just because his webs don't shoot as far as repulsor rays do. I think the range should be fixed, but fixed at a number of squares less than 10.
I would not like it to require an action, because I think that would alter it's cost/value too much. A lone character with outwit wouldn't get much use out of it at all. I am sure that this was taken into account regarding defend or enhancement, but not with outwit.
I do, however, think that an outwitter should be able to outwit an opponents stealth without having to draw a line of fire (representing their ability to draw the opponent out into the open). Between stealth and fortitude, outwit has enough potential stumbling blocks without making it less powerful.

Adam_Warlock

04/27/2008, 20:39

my biggest beef is outwitting impervious, I think that outwit should be graduated, impervious becomes invulnerability, becomes toughness, becomes nothing. For the cost of impervious on a figure, being to outwit it w/ an 11 point pog seems ridiuculous.

Sgt Grimes

04/27/2008, 20:55

mandarin would rain supreme with his 12 range

Kenny Wisdom

04/27/2008, 22:21

I wouldn't want to see it be changed at all.

Darth Sabre

04/27/2008, 23:31

I would not favor a change to outwit. I think it is fine as it is, and can be dealt with without too much effort.

airdomin8

04/28/2008, 11:37

In a game about powers, Outwit rules supreme.

It is arguably the most useful power in the game. But changing it's rules would seriously castrate figures like Batman.

kjv_66

04/28/2008, 12:02

How about none of the above?

Grumpygoat

04/28/2008, 14:26

In a game about powers, Outwit rules supreme.

It is arguably the most useful power in the game. But changing it's rules would seriously castrate figures like Batman.

It still requires line of sight. I'd peg Hypersonic Speed as the "king" of powers. Not just because it can get out of sight after attacking, but also because it's a bit more difficult for an opponent to render their characters immune to the power, while Outwit can be nerfed (either fully or partially) with Stealth/Batman Ally, Power Cosmic/Quintessence, Rip Hunter, White Noise, the Society, and Outsmart.

Hypersonic Speed's really only tweaked by Inertial Interference Field.

I really think Outwit is fine as-is.

Mr. Pilkington

04/28/2008, 14:52

Long ago when I was a Judge I instituted a house rule to tie utility powers to range a la Mind Control. This was back in the Xplosion days and you saw lots of R Black Panther, Con Artists and Destiny. The first time we tried it people changed their teams radically, I feel for the better. V Mandarin was a beast too, Outwitting to 12. I'd still like this rule to go into play.

I understand the position that some characters should potentially be able to do things like Outwit farther away than they can hit a figure, but in today's SP world you can just give Reed a power that says he can use Outwit with a range of 10 or the like.

Condoleezza_Rice

04/28/2008, 17:58

Newbish Question; Why can't I vote on the polls? Thanks

Sgt Grimes

04/28/2008, 18:03

Newbish Question; Why can't I vote on the polls? Thanks

Do you live in Florida?

snarfery

04/28/2008, 18:19

Not sure, I sometimes do think it needs a change though, too many cheap figs are getting it nowadays, maybe just make it less prevalent.

Cam-El

04/28/2008, 18:25

If there was a change to outwit which would you want to see?

I know may of us are fine with it, but if you had to vote for a change with the given choices what would you pick.

Slade those are terrible ideas ok they're not to bad , I love playing with outwit, your one of my favorite clix , I wouldnt want to see you soo muted

:cross-eye

rwint1968

04/28/2008, 18:25

Like they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I don't think there is anything the matter with Outwit. I say keep it the way it is. Sometimes I think WK has already changed too much about the game we love.

Thanks,
:cool:

Cam-El

04/28/2008, 18:26

Do you live in Florida?

HAHA dont call for a recount ...

Adraeko

04/28/2008, 19:02

I think Outwit should be more powerful. You should be able to target multiple people within range, halving the 10 range, and rounding up, for each target (because of the concentration it takes). Also Thwart should not require an action and simply cost 5 points more to be an equal balance to Fortitude.