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alstaire
05/16/2008, 02:17
Got this from the WK site... nbperp (Wizkids Heroclix Rules Arbitrator) listed all the changes for us... :cool:


Fantastic Four Rules - What's Changed?
Ch.. Ch.. Ch.. Changes!

The new FF Rulebook that you have available to you is one of the most exciting rulebooks you’ve read, save perhaps your first. It has been specifically redesigned to make learning the game easier, allowing players to learn one step at a time and play as they learn.

For experienced players, the devil is always in the details. What’s new? What’s gone? What’s changed? Herein, I hope to make clear for folks where Heroclix under the FF Rulebook differs from what you’re used to.

I'm keeping this thread stickied but closed. Questions are highly encouraged, I just didn't want this very long thread to become even more unwieldy. If you have questions, I recommend that you keep each thread to a topic rather than putting all your questions into one thread - it'll make thing easier for people who search things later.

Page 4
A new section details the different formats for the game. For our purposes, we’ll always be dealing with the “Full Core” format.

Page 6
Pushing damage is now clearly the last thing to be applied. Even when other special powers or feats cause damage after the action resolves, pushing damage is last.

Page 9
A major shift in ranged combat. The rules for fliers versus non-fliers and all that caused is gone. Now, the rule is that no one can perform ranged attack when they are adjacent to an opposing character. Of course, there is an exception but it’s easier to understand than before. Only characters with the Sharpshooter ability (indicated by the new attack icon) can make a ranged attack while adjacent. As before, adjacency to an opposing figure prevents ranged attacks against non-adjacent characters.

Page 10
There is a phrase on this page “Grounded characters can make ranged combat attacks against flying characters.” This is flavor text more than anything else. No specific exceptions or rules are derived from it.

Page 12
Destroying walls more or less reverts back to the rules for Danger Room. You have to be able to target the square on “your” side of the wall (the square closer to the character shooting) and you need to be able to target the square on the “other” side of you (for this LOF, the wall itself and anything occupying that other square does not block LOF). This leads to some odd geometry such as the diagram below, but it follows the rule cleanly.

. . . A .
. 1|2 . .
. 3|4 . .
. 5|6 . .
. . . . .
. B . . .

Figure A can destroy the wall between 1 & 2 or between 3 & 4. He cannot destroy the one between 5 & 6 because the line of fire to square 5 is blocked by the wall between 3 & 4. B, on the other hand, can destroy the wall between 5 & 6 or between 3 & 4 as he has clear lines of fire to all 4 of those squares. He cannot destroy the wall between 1 & 2 as the line of fire to square 2 is blocked by the wall between 3 & 4.

Page 12
Debris tokens are only used for 2 situations – when destroying a wall and when destroying blocking terrain. Although there is little wording change for how destroyed blocking terrain is replaced with debris tokens, it is set off into its own section. This is so that the description of objects being destroyed references to the rules for destroying blocking terrain, it does not link it to this now different section.

What this boils down to is this – blocking terrain gets a debris token when it’s destroyed. Walls get debris tokens in the 2 adjacent squares. Other things that get destroyed – notably OBJECTS – do not get replaced with debris tokens. So if Batman is hiding on that object, watch out – if your opponent destroys it, it is removed from the game. And suddenly, Batman feels very exposed.

That’s not to say that debris markers will have no other purpose in the game, but in order to be used, the mechanic that calls for it needs to specifically say as much. If it simply says it is “destroyed like blocking terrain” that only means you need to deal 3 damage to it – it does not mean that a debris token is placed upon destruction.

When a character drops an object, if the current square has an object in it already, the object being dropped is removed from the game instead.

Page 14
Range for throwing an object has changed. It is now 8 for a light and 6 for a heavy.

Telekinesis has had a major overhaul, and as a special preview, here is what is in the new PAC:


Originally Posted by Telekinesis
Give this character a power action and choose one of the following options. (For all options, this character must have a clear line of fire to the target and is treated as if it has a range value of 8. For options 1 and 2, the target ignores the effects of elevated and hindering terrain on movement.) (1) Move an Opposing Character: This character makes one close combat or ranged combat attack that deals no damage. If the attack succeeds and the target has or possesses the <<standard>> damage symbol (but is not a double-base figure), move the target up to 8 squares so long as it ends its movement 8 or fewer squares from this character. (2) Move an Object or a Friendly Character: This character targets an object or a friendly character that is 8 or fewer squares away and moves it up to 8 squares so long as it ends its movement 8 or fewer squares from this character in a square to which this character has a clear line of fire. (3) Attack with an Object: This character makes a ranged combat attack targeting a single opposing character as if it occupies the square occupied by a non-held standard object; this character must be 8 or fewer squares away from both the object and the target of the attack. The target of a successful attack using a light object is dealt 2 damage; a heavy object, 3 damage.

This power has received a MAJOR change. First, adjacency is no longer required for the target being moved, only line of fire. Secondly, the range and distance of movement has been reduced to 8 squares, instead of 10. Of all the things you review in the new ruleset, the PAC and the rulebook (page 14) regarding TK should be very high on the list. Some things to keep in mind:

(a) You need to have line of fire to the target AND the square to which you are moving the target. As with all things that require a line of fire, adjacency does not necessarily mean that you can target them (lines of fire can be blocked by adjacently diagonal characters, Stealth, etc.)

(b) When you TK a friendly character, if they are adjacent to an opposing figure, a breakaway roll would be required. As with all break away rolls, if the roll fails, the action is over. Remember that the character being moved is not being given an action here of any kind, so powers like Leap/Climb and Phasing would not result in an automatic break away. Other powers, like Plasticity, which alters how a character breaks away, would still apply.

(c) When moving a character (friendly or opposing) or object, any adjacency to an opposing figure will cause the movement to stop. It does not matter if the character or object being moved can normally ignore characters for movement (like a flier), while it is being moved with TK it is not utilizing its powers and is subject to the rules for TK. Note that moving an object is different than attacking with an object (which only requires a line of fire from the object to the target).

(d) When moving a character, the only terrain you can ignore for movement purposes is hindering and elevated. For things like blocking terrain and walls, you can move the character around them and you do not need to maintain a line of fire on every square you move the target through – you only need the lines of fire on the first and last squares.

(e) If moving the target character causes it to need to roll (say, for the adjacency of a Hypertime figure) the roll must be made. If the roll fails, the target can continue to be moved in a different path. If it cannot “make it” to another target square, it has to “roll back” to the last square the TKer had line of fire.

(f) NTAT – No TK after TK. There, I said it first . A character that has been moved with TK cannot subsequently use TK during that same turn. The inverse is not true though – a character that uses TK this turn can still be moved with TK during the same turn.

(g) There used to be an exception for attacking with an object that allowed the character to do so, as a ranged attack, even when based. This exception no longer exists. If the TKer is adjacent to an enemy character (and does not have the ability to make ranged attacks while adjacent) then this option is not available.

(h) On the other hand, if only the object is adjacent to an opposing character but the TKer itself is not, this does not prevent the object from being used for option 3. Making a ranged attack as if it occupies the square means that it CAN make the attack, even if it would be based while in that square.

(i) Attacking with an object is now limited to standard objects. Special objects can no longer be thrown around with TK.

(j) If moving a character with TK results in some affect because of a special object or BFC, that affect would still occur. This is a general rule and certain mechanics may require that we examine this more closely.

Attacking with an Object – in order for a TKer to be able to make an attack with an object, a number of conditions must be met. (a) The TKer has line of fire to an object within 8 squares, (b) The TKer has a line of fire to the target within 8 squares and (c) the target is within 8 squares of the object. For example:
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . O . . .
. T . . . . . . . . . X .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . 1 . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . 3 .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . 2 . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
In the above diagram, the character with Telekinesis can use the Object since it is 8 squares away. It cannot use the X object because it is too far from the TKer. The only target the object can be used on is 1 as it is within 8 squares of both T and O. The character in 2 is too far away from the object while the character in 3 is too far away from the TKer.

Page 16
New combat abilities– “Sharpshooter” and “Indomitable” are introduced. The symbols on their base that indicate a character has the ability are shown on this page while their abilities are defined on the next page.

While not much in the way of a rules change, there is an overall restructuring to how we view characters. There are the standard combat symbols – Boot, Fist, Shield, and Starburst—that we have always had, but now any other symbol is a special combat symbol that grants the character access to a special ability. Instead of having special rules for fliers or swimmers or transporters or whatever, different icons now simply grant access to abilities. Other things (like feats and special powers) might also grant the use of an ability in which case, the rulings would all be consistent based on the ability.

Pages 17-18
Most of the abilities on these pages are abilities we’ve had in the past. What’s important is that all of these abilities, unless stated otherwise, are subject to being countered via powers like Outwit or other effects. This is a huge change for certain things, notably fliers (characters with the Wing symbol). Fliers have 2 abilities – Flight (which is what lets them ignore terrain and characters once they are moving) and Carrying (the ability to pick up/put down a friendly character). Each of these can (and has to be) be countered individually. 2 Outwitters and you can effectively turn a Wing character into a Boot character. Another change is to Giants. Instead of having special rules for all sorts of things, the rules for giants are boiled down into 2 abilities – Giant Size and Giant Stride (detailed below).

Flight – a new ability, but a long standing mechanic. A character with flight can do everything a flier was able to do in terms of movement. It does not, on its own, grant a character the ability to use Carry, which is now a separate ability. This is important since abilities can be countered now. A single Outwitter can Outwit Flight or Carry, but would not affect both abilities with one Outwit.

Sharpshooter – Previously, the rules for ranged combat while adjacent to an opposing character were complex. You needed to know the speed type of the shooter and the opposing characters. Now, the rules are simple – no one can make a ranged combat attack while adjacent to an opposing figure unless they are a Sharpshooter. In addition, a Sharpshooter can make a ranged attack and ignore other characters for line of fire purposes. Note that a Sharpshooter does not ignore terrain for line of fire purposes, so Stealth would still protect a character from being targeted by a Sharpshooter from range. Finally, note that this phrasing does not convey upon Sharpshooters the ability to fire out of adjacency. No one gets that (except Colossal characters).

Indomitable – A new defense icon prevents the character from taking any push damage. The source of the push damage is not relevant, any push damage would be ignored.

Giant Size is the first ability that giants have and it is not counterable or cancelable. All of the rules that applied to the giant under the previous rules for combat appear here.

Giant Stride changes the movement rules of a giant significantly.
1. The “2 square adjacency” for movement is gone. This is still available for close combat under Giant Size, but moving is no longer harder for a giant. This also exposes the giant to 0 range characters a bit as they no longer need to stop when they are 2 away from the giant.
2. Movement is actually easier as a giant can ignore characters during movement now while also ignoring the same terrain types as before.
3. Giants can use the Carry ability to carry friendly characters if they are moving when given an action while they have zero action tokens.

Also note that the Giant Stride ability grants the use of Carrying. Unlike a flier, who has 2 abilities, each of which need to be countered on their own, a figure with Giant Stride has one ability that allows it to use the Carry ability (in certain circumstances). Countering Giant Stride would prevent the target from using Carry as well.

Colossal Size – this is a restatement of the general rules for colossal characters that we’ve had. Note that Colossal characters can make ranged attacks against non-adjacent figures when they are based. This will be made more explicit in the E&C.

Carry – primarily for fliers and transporters, now rephrased as an ability it can be given to other characters (such as Giants via their Giant Stride ability.) A very important change to this is that when carrying, a character’s speed value is modified by -2. As with other cases of modifications, it would take place after replacement, so a character using Running Shot would first halve their movement and then adjust it -2 if they are carrying another character.

Capture – a couple of changes to this ability:

1. The ability can be countered, which is a slightly easier way to rescue your characters.

2. A figure using this ability can capture up to 3 characters instead of 2.

Page 18
Wild cards – A very significant change for wild cards as they lose the ability to use team abilities from feat cards. This means that wild cards cannot make use of “alternate team abilities” like Monster Society of Evil.

Page 19
Traits – we finally have a name for “that 5 pointed star icon power thing.”

Feat prerequisites – okay folks, sit down. I daresay this will cause a ruckus of applause. Special Powers can now be used to fulfill the prerequisites for feats. Armor Wars Spider-Man is delighted to be equipped with Stunning Blow. And dozens of answers in the rules forum archive are now wrong . Other rulings still apply – a character with Outwit and a special power that lets him “use” Outwit are still different instances of a power and could both be used by that character on the same turn.

I expect that there are going to be a number of questions that come up regarding how specific special powers work with certain feats. The general rule we’ll be using is any feat activated through a special power that limits/alters the use of the power can be used but would still be limited/altered accordingly. For example, let’s say a character has an ability “Shaft can use Perplex but can only target himself.” And that he also qualifies to be assigned Brilliant Tactician. If this special power is the only form of Perplex Shaft has, then this would be a poor choice of Feats. The limitation of only targeting himself would still apply, making BT’s ability to target many others with the use of the feat unusable. On the flip side, if the special power were “Shaft can use Perplex but can modify combat values by +2 if the target character does not have a token”, Shaft would be able to use BT and any character without a token would get their combat value modified +2 while other characters would be modified +1.

Note that team abilities – either natural, from special powers, or from wild cards using – cannot be used to meet the prerequisites for feats. For example, Batman Allys still cannot be assigned feats like “Ambush” unless they can use Stealth through s power.

The 10% Rule – On the flip side, I suspect that this rule is going to create a certain amount of controversy. As of now, your team build cannot have more than 10% of its points in feats. The percentage is based on the game’s build total, not on your actual build, so a 295 point team (in a 300 point event) can have 30 points of feats and 265 points of characters.

Arch Enemies
Nothing in the new rulebook has any mention of arch enemies, so it looks like this mechanic is gone. All those figures with colored bases can now be played together.

clixboy
05/16/2008, 12:31
wow huge changes these changes will affect our heroclix gameplay on a large scale

darkjacen
05/16/2008, 21:20
Finally! Giants become more useful!:grin:

...wildcards just got kicked in the shins...:ermm:

Outwit of flying and carry is troublesome, but makes sense.

The no ranged combat when based helps with fliers that have close combat expert. But alas is a hassle for Flying shooters...

Overall, it's a big change. Well we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out here.

rhomuel
06/11/2008, 07:58
waaaaaaaaaa! just fread this....my team is mostly composed of wild cards....oh well back to the drawing board...new team set up....

jmz4lyf
06/11/2008, 13:04
waaaaaaaaaa! just fread this....my team is mostly composed of wild cards....oh well back to the drawing board...new team set up....

wag mo muna intindihin maxado yung changes.. it'll go into effect on the release day of the fantastic four starter set. July pa ata yun.:)

Dr.HellCustom
08/18/2008, 13:17
:p finally! just goes to show that great games can indeed get better.
Whew! kailangan ko magreview pala! Maraming nabago BUT they all made BETTER sense. Gotta grab that starter!

Why all the cries for wild cards? Humina ba? It's still the same as before right? Yung paggamit lang ng 'orange' TAs ang nabago.

Nakakalungkot lang yung indomitable... di umabot kay Darkseid CRI... uy wala pa ko nun... :angry:mega beam!

Xtriker47
08/18/2008, 13:41
so if you're flight is outwitted can you still carry?

ric0chet
08/19/2008, 00:30
follow up din po sa changes sa wildcards may nakita ako sa isang thread na:

Wildcards: Can't copy Alternate Team Abilities (from Feat cards). Can receive combat values from Defenders/Sinister Syndicate characters, but can't lend them to them. If a F4 teammate is KOed, the Wildcard can heal but not vice versa.

sa relation sa x-men team ability pwede pa po ba heal ng fig na may xmen ta ang fig na may wildcards ta and vice versa or tulad sa F4 na hindi?

Geof-Force
08/19/2008, 03:45
so if you're flight is outwitted can you still carry?

Yes. The :m-wing: means it has 2 abilities "flying" and "carry". Outwit states it counters "abilities" not symbols.

As per nbperp:
Flight – a new ability, but a long standing mechanic. A character with flight can do everything a flier was able to do in terms of movement. It does not, on its own, grant a character the ability to use Carry, which is now a separate ability. This is important since abilities can be countered now. A single Outwitter can Outwit Flight or Carry, but would not affect both abilities with one Outwit.

Thus, a character with the :m-wing-trans: has 3 abilities "flying", "carry" and "move and attack" so you have to have 3 outwitters to remove them all.:cool:

Geof-Force
08/19/2008, 03:52
:p finally! just goes to show that great games can indeed get better.
Whew! kailangan ko magreview pala! Maraming nabago BUT they all made BETTER sense. Gotta grab that starter!

Why all the cries for wild cards? Humina ba? It's still the same as before right? Yung paggamit lang ng 'orange' TAs ang nabago.

Nakakalungkot lang yung indomitable... di umabot kay Darkseid CRI... uy wala pa ko nun... :angry:mega beam!




Come back na Dok! Wild Cards can no longer copy ATAs and with regards to Bat-enemy/Syn Sin, JSA/Defenders they can't share their values but they can be shared with. So, a JSAer can give his 18 defense to a wild card but not vice versa.

rhomuel
08/20/2008, 01:15
Ano po ATA???sensya na po newb lang po???eaxample naman po...

alstaire
08/20/2008, 02:30
ATA means Alternate Team Abilities from feat cards... for example the Squadron Supreme ATA grants figures, with the Defenders team symbol, Mind Control... But Wildcards can only copy the the printed Ability on the figure, which is Defenders on this example, and not the Squadron ATA. :-)

Dr.HellCustom
08/20/2008, 04:34
Thanks Geof! Personally, when I was just beginning to learn the game, I really thought that wildcards are too powerful. Kaya nga tinawag na WC Abuse yung mga chopsuey TA teams?:grin:

Linawin ko lang din Sir s kung ano nga ba ang standing ng X-Men/Teen Titans TAs. Bawal na magpapowder o lotion sa WC pero pwede sila magpamasahe sa XM/TT? Tama ba sirs?:)

alstaire
08/20/2008, 05:08
Linawin ko lang din Sir s kung ano nga ba ang standing ng X-Men/Teen Titans TAs. Bawal na magpapowder o lotion sa WC pero pwede sila magpamasahe sa XM/TT? Tama ba sirs?:)


Actually, only X-men TA has changed... Wildcards has no prblem copying X-men... Ang nabago ay "When used, on a roll of 5 or 6 the character taking the action to heal a teammate doesn't take damage." :cool:

alstaire
08/20/2008, 05:12
Here is a concise list of the rules changes coming with the F4 Starter

Telekinesis: The character with TK can now use it on objects and characters that are up to 8 squares away, with a clear LOF. When using it on a character, that character can more 8 squares but must roll for breakaway, and can't ignore enemy figure bases or blocking terrain when moving. Friendly Giants can now be TKed (but not opposing Giants).

Perplex: Now lasts until the start of your next turn like Outwit.

Fliers: Can no longer use or be attacked by ranged attacks when adjacent. -2 to movement when carrying.

Giants: Can now carry if they don't have an action token (also get -2 to movement when doing so). Are no longer adjacent two squares away, but can still make close combat attacks two squares away. They now ignore opposing characters for movement.

Objects: Heavy objects can now be thrown 6 squares. Light Objects can be thrown 8 squares. Destroying them no longer leaves rubble, unless it is a blue ringed (Immobile) object. If an object is dropped on an object, it dissappears.

NEW ATTACK ABILITY: Sharpshooter: (Looks like crosshairs) Allows characters to make ranged attacks while adjacent, like fliers used to be able to. They also can ignore enemy figures when drawing LOF (like mini Trick Shot).

NEW DEFENSE ABILITY: Indomitable: (Looks like the shield with a slash through it) Stops a character from taking pushing damage, including from feats.

Outwit: Can now be used on 'abilities' such as fliers ability to Carry or Fly, Giant's stride, etc.

Traits: Special powers that don't appear on the dial but can always be used by the character. These can't be outwitted or cancelled.

Feats: Now limited to 10% of your build total. Special Abilities can now be used as pre-requisites for feats if they list PAC powers in them.

Wildcards: Can't copy Alternate Team Abilities (from Feat cards). Can receive combat values from Defenders/Sinister Syndicate characters, but can't lend them to them. If a F4 teammate is KOed, the Wildcard can heal but not vice versa.

SHIELD TA: Can be used as it was, or as a free action can increase the range of adjacent friendlies by 1.

X-men TA: When used, on a roll of a 5 or a 6 the character taking the action doesn't take a click.

Earthbound: Reverts all symbols back to their standard equivalents.

Hypersonic Speed: Option 2 no longer exists.

Battle Fury: Protects from Possession as well as Mind Control.

Arch-Enemies: No longer apply.

Energy Explosion: Damage value is reduced to 1 rather than replaced by 1 - allowing it to be used with the Extended Range Feat.

Dr.HellCustom
08/20/2008, 10:32
Thanks Als! Honestly kasi eh iniisip ko mag Supergirl V sa nationals eh napaka vital ng X-Men o Titans TA for my strategy...teka ala naman akong strategy ah!... for my game to work.

Pero 2nd choice team ko lang yun. Malamang eh uulan ng teen teams... so robot mode ang preferred mode of play ko. :p Pero pag may nag robot din e bahala na si Lobo!:laugh:

Thanks again guys! A lot has changed since my hiatus, but all for the better right? :) I'm really lookin' forward to seeing you all again!...sniff! sniff!;)

Insulares
08/21/2008, 08:15
[FONT=Century Gothic]Thanks Als! Honestly kasi eh iniisip ko mag Supergirl V sa nationals eh napaka vital ng X-Men o Titans TA for my strategy...[COLOR=DarkRed]teka ala naman akong strategy ah!... for my game to work.

Basta hindi "stradgedy" doc! :p

Good luck to you in the nationals! I hope to play against you again at ATC.

PS Do you know where I can find the complete Mazinger Z series na hindi masagwa ang dubbing or subtitles? Thanks.

elbinoy
08/21/2008, 20:37
Basta hindi "stradgedy" doc! :p

Good luck to you in the nationals! I hope to play against you again at ATC.

PS Do you know where I can find the complete Mazinger Z series na hindi masagwa ang dubbing or subtitles? Thanks.


meron sa greenhills, shoppesville, katabi ng hobbeypoint. altho di ko pa alam quality ng subs.
(ergo, kung bilin mo... pahiram! hehe) :p

samuraigrifter
08/21/2008, 21:42
Arch-Enemies no longer apply!? So Omni-Man and Invincible can fight like the father-son team they were in the first few issues of the book? Yay!!!

Insulares
08/22/2008, 00:31
meron sa greenhills, shoppesville, katabi ng hobbeypoint. altho di ko pa alam quality ng subs.
(ergo, kung bilin mo... pahiram! hehe) :p

bad quality ang subs sa greenhills eh. But when I find a good copy you can borrow.:grin:

elbinoy
08/22/2008, 04:55
[B][SIZE="3"]Wildcards: Can't copy Alternate Team Abilities (from Feat cards). Can receive combat values from Defenders/Sinister Syndicate characters, but can't lend them to them. If a F4 teammate is KOed, the Wildcard can heal but not vice versa.



question. wildcards can't lend their values to defenders/syndicate members, but can they lend it to other wildcards?

Javi,
hehe. thanks. nami-miss ko na rin sumigaw ng "Rokketo-Panchu!!" si koji. hehe.

alstaire
08/22/2008, 09:10
question. wildcards can't lend their values to defenders/syndicate members, but can they lend it to other wildcards?


Alam ko hindi pa rin pwede... :grin: they need the actual Defenders/Syndicate members to be adjacent... :p

Dr.HellCustom
08/22/2008, 14:10
Basta hindi "stradgedy" doc! :p

Good luck to you in the nationals! I hope to play against you again at ATC.

PS Do you know where I can find the complete Mazinger Z series na hindi masagwa ang dubbing or subtitles? Thanks.

Hehehe! OO nga!:laugh:
Apparently Javi pareho tayo ng kopya. I have the 13 DVD set but the subtitles are simply... hilarious at times. Dr. Hill... Dr. Hill! Naalalako yung frustration ko sa Gunbuster DVD ko:disappoin
Anyway thanks! Malamang pagkatapos ng kasalan e ATC na ko ulit every Sat.
Goodluck to us all!;)

Insulares
08/28/2008, 03:43
This might help - especially for the newbies - in clarifying rules on power combinations:

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234807

Tarnish has a good discussion on use of powers.