Perplex changes

[hair10]

OK... I guess the poll that I made a bit ago didn't really ask the important question. Perplex. Good change? Bad change?

[loganspeedo]

Kind of how I thought it was when I first started playing.

[St-Dumas]

Remind me what the change is.

[Lonehawk]

Both players can have access to perplex so I can't see the problem. If 1 player increases defense by 3 then the other player can lower it again before they attack.

It makes the power more intuitive, easier to explain and easier to teach.

[hair10]

Remind me what the change is.
Perplex lasts til the beginning of your next turn now. So you can perplex your own defense up or any of your opponents stats down and they'll "stick".

[St-Dumas]

Perplex lasts til the beginning of your next turn now. So you can perplex your own defense up or any of your opponents stats down and they'll "stick".

Ah. In that case I prefer the old perplex. Being able to increase stats for a full turn should require an action, like ICwO.

[snarfery]

I always wondered why you shouldnt be able to perplex some defense on your team.

[ThePrinted6]

Both players can have access to perplex...

Big part of my problem. You shouldn't need Perplex to win. If I don't pack Perplex but my opponent does, it formerly would just help my opponent on offense. Now it can help him on offense and defense. Its usefulness has increased 100%.

[ThePrinted6]

I have yet to see anyone make an argument that NuPerplex isn't broken without employing Perplex or Outwit in their counter.

(Beyond, of course, the logical argument of: "We won't know if it's broken until we try it." That is logical.)

[Manchine]

There is only one thing I know.


I like girls. :)


That is all.

[Kaitouace]

Don't know yet. A lot of the "strategies" going into this new Perplex change aren't exactly new ideas and have been around for a while.

Plus people want to start Perplexing up their defenses? Fine with me. Much better than people Perplexing their Damage up to 6 - 8.

There also a lot of "Perplex is the new ICwO" as well. But IMO the reason ICwO was so bad was because it came out with Legacy with several REAL abusive figures that didn't need the help to begin with. Lately when I've been able to use ICwO it's been with the more current figures that certainly DO need the help (Young Avengers for example). And with the higher defenses in general going around, I expect to see a lot of perplexed down defenses and perplexed up AVs. This new change is just going to keep us away from the original problem with Perplex in the first place: People boosting up good characters with good AVs to ridiculous damage values. I think this might slow the game down more (higher defenses = more missing) but as long as the Perplex gets used for anything that's not Damage, I couldn't really care too much.

[jiggle_billy]

Don't know yet. A lot of the "strategies" going into this new Perplex change aren't exactly new ideas and have been around for a while.

Plus people want to start Perplexing up their defenses? Fine with me. Much better than people Perplexing their Damage up to 6 - 8.

This new change is just going to keep us away from the original problem with Perplex in the first place: People boosting up good characters with good AVs to ridiculous damage values. I think this might slow the game down more (higher defenses = more missing) but as long as the Perplex gets used for anything that's not Damage, I couldn't really care too much.


my thoughts 100% exactly

[Crow]

The thing is this: it used to be that you would use Perplex offensively when you were attacking, and on clearing turns you wouldn't be using it. Now, there is not a single turn where you should let Perplex "idle"... players will always passively bump their defenses on turns in which they aren't attacking, leading to more misses, leading to longer games.

I'm against this change - and mostly because of the +2-Perplex figures appearing lately. I am not excited about having to stare down 19 and 20 defenses even more often than I already do.

[Lonehawk]

What will be interesting is that the last sentence of perplex will come into play.

This effect ends immediately if this character loses Perplex or is
defeated, or when the target is damaged or healed

Outwit the perplexer and the bonus vanishes. Hit the target with poison damage and the same happens. Before, because the bonus only occured on your turn it was never an issue.

[rancidtwinkie]

Big part of my problem. You shouldn't need Perplex to win.

Your argument is flawed.

You can easily replace Perplex with: Outwit, HSS, high Attack Values, high Damage Values, Probability Control, Support, ...

It is an aspect of the game that can be a viable strategy.

I shouldn't have to have move+attack powers to win, but if I don't it sure is a lot harder. That is why BME is a fun team to play, but hard to win with.

[ThePrinted6]

Your argument is flawed.

You can easily replace Perplex with: Outwit, HSS, high Attack Values, high Damage Values, Probability Control, Support, ...

It is an aspect of the game that can be a viable strategy.

I shouldn't have to have move+attack powers to win, but if I don't it sure is a lot harder. That is why BME is a fun team to play, but hard to win with.

I feel that Perplex, with the change has become too viable a strategy.

[Space Jawa]

I'm not sure 'it brings balance' is the right phrase, but I'm still positive towards the change in the power.

[MadHatter]

I think the intuition of it makes the change worthwhile. When Hypertime came out, my friends and I all played with it lasting til the beginning of the next turn. I'm sure many other people made the same mistake in the past, so I see no problem with it now.

[Kaitouace]

The thing is this: it used to be that you would use Perplex offensively when you were attacking, and on clearing turns you wouldn't be using it. Now, there is not a single turn where you should let Perplex "idle"... players will always passively bump their defenses on turns in which they aren't attacking, leading to more misses, leading to longer games.

I'm against this change - and mostly because of the +2-Perplex figures appearing lately. I am not excited about having to stare down 19 and 20 defenses even more often than I already do.

But the other side of this situation is you can just hit the guy who has Perplex and it's dealt with. If the guy with Perplex is boosting his own Defense? That's a guy wasting it on himself instead of his primary beatstick upping his AV or Damage. Longer games I can deal with. It's the "Wham! Take 8 damage. The game's over." stuff I couldn't stand.

And if your opponent is in a position to overly abuse Perplex (he has multiple Perplexes on his team) then you had issues with him min/maxing before the change. You want to boost a guy's defense to 23? Fine. I'll just kill your Perplexers and be done with it. In fact, it might be a good thing because I see too many people play the game and immediately attack the "biggest threat" on the board without realizing that the reason he's the biggest threat is because of the Perplexer/Outwitter in the corner. If it gets to the point where cheap Perplexers become big targets (I'm looking at you, Multiple Man) people are going to resort to "combat Perplexers" or might just be wary to use them in the first place. Don't think I won't "waste" a shot to one-shot a Perplexer.

[Artarus]

You need to add "the sky isn't falling, so calm down" as an option.

Barring that.. I'm indifferent.. it won't really effect how I use Perplex other then in some RARE cases.. between the Rule of Three and Outwit, it's hardly game breaking, just game altering.. and things changes. Learn to adapt of become extinct.

[Phantom]

I don't think the biggest impact will be the ability to boost defense with Perplex. I think it will be the ability to lower your opponent's damage value. This could make damage reducers much better than they were before, but it also would make Perplex of your own almost mandatory on your teams to keep yourself from being neutered. Who's afraid of KC or E2 Superman when his damage value has been perplexed down to 2?

I'll hold out final judgement until we see a few tourneys go by under the new rules, but I'm having a hard time seeing this as a great thing for the game.

[AbraKadabra]

I had always wondered why they didn't make it last as long as Outwit.

But they've finally seen the error of their ways! :grin: A good change, I like it.

[rancidtwinkie]

I don't think the biggest impact will be the ability to boost defense with Perplex. I think it will be the ability to lower your opponent's damage value. This could make damage reducers much better than they were before, but it also would make Perplex of your own almost mandatory on your teams to keep yourself from being neutered. Who's afraid of KC or E2 Superman when his damage value has been perplexed down to 2?

I totally agree.

It also have value for reducing an opponent's Range and Movement to enable your figures to move up into position or to chase down a HSS figure.

[ludd_gang]

I like the flavor. I like the streamlining. But they have doubled the power of Perplex.

KCGL Sidekicks R Vertigo.

The 53 point E Question can Perplex his d to an effective 19.

74 point R Doc Samson can neutralize anything less than 4 damage.

You know that shot you just set up? Your range or movement just went down and now you can't hit me.

The more I think about it, and the more I hear the apologists rationalize it, the more it seems unbalanced. ICWO that can hit foes too.

[Artarus]

The more I think about it, and the more I hear the apologists rationalize it, the more it seems unbalanced. ICWO that can hit foes too.

And the more chicken little panic I hear the less I care. Adapt or quit. Those are your choices.

[fastcat99]

Well, at least the Cukoos won't seem broken now.

[Kaitouace]

I like the flavor. I like the streamlining. But they have doubled the power of Perplex.

KCGL Sidekicks R Vertigo.

The 53 point E Question can Perplex his d to an effective 19.

74 point R Doc Samson can neutralize anything less than 4 damage.

You know that shot you just set up? Your range or movement just went down and now you can't hit me.

The more I think about it, and the more I hear the apologists rationalize it, the more it seems unbalanced. ICWO that can hit foes too.

*shrugs*

Virtually every character you used in your examples is retired. Not worried about them. And if Question wants to hide in Stealth and Perplex up his defense to 19 while I wreck the rest of his team? Good for him.

[ludd_gang]

And the more chicken little panic I hear the less I care. Adapt or quit. Those are your choices.

Or get enough folks to say "this is stupid" and WK changes it for the better.

I don't think what I said deserved that response.

[the itsy bit]

I don't like it: nullifying the big gun of you're opponents with 3 perplexers is really good especially against tentpole figs...

although that wouldn't be as bad as: adding 3 to the DEFEND fig giving you're whole team 20+ defences !?!

[spiderman9797]

It may not be the new ICWO, as with ICWO you can assign it to anyone you wish which means the already great figures become even more dominant.

However, for those who already have Perplex, it's far better. The new Dr. Doom is now far more appealing, and I liked him to begin with, really.

Is it "broken"? Nah, not with retirement. Is it a little overpowered? Sure. The main problem with this change, really, is that Perplex didn't need to be changed. It was already a very good utility power that plenty had and I didn't know a single person that was happy with the old perplex.

Now I promise that I can make a Doom Team that is even more dominant than my old Doom Team if I decide to play an unrestricted game, but I won't. Not only was it no fun for everyone I played against, but after the first 3 teams that fell to it (in a matter of 10 minutes or so), I don't find building the cheesiest team around fun at all.

It can be abused, sure. But you'd have to make a team specifically built for abusing the power. Once you start building teams with the sole purpose of abusing a power or abusing a rule, then you're not playing Heroclix for fun anymore. You're playing to be obnoxious.

[szude]

And if your opponent is in a position to overly abuse Perplex (he has multiple Perplexes on his team) then you had issues with him min/maxing before the change. You want to boost a guy's defense to 23? Fine. I'll just kill your Perplexers and be done with it. In fact, it might be a good thing because I see too many people play the game and immediately attack the "biggest threat" on the board without realizing that the reason he's the biggest threat is because of the Perplexer/Outwitter in the corner. If it gets to the point where cheap Perplexers become big targets (I'm looking at you, Multiple Man) people are going to resort to "combat Perplexers" or might just be wary to use them in the first place. Don't think I won't "waste" a shot to one-shot a Perplexer.

Meanwhile, while you go after his dinky pieces, KCGL, has fried you for 6 3 times. So in order to whittle down the perplexes to where you don't need to hit GL's 23, he whittles you down to where you can't hit his 20 anymore.

It's really the same problem that used to plague the paramedics. It wasn't that you couldn't deal with it, it was that you had to send a bulk of your force to deal with a small-point piece that was capable of swinging the game in their favor, your opponent could sit back and take swipes at the bulk of your force.

[szude]

And the more chicken little panic I hear the less I care. Adapt or quit. Those are your choices.

I really don't think Wizkids intends to drive lots of players to quit.

[ludd_gang]

I don't like it: nullifying the big gun of you're opponents with 3 perplexers is really good especially against tentpole figs...


Exactly. Folks were upset that the feat cap hurt tentpoles. Guys, this hurts tentpoles way more than that.

[xmastree]

It unbalances the game FAR too much. Perplex has already been an overly exploited power. This will result in some sort of ridiculously powerful strategy, GL Tanks, Jakeem abuse. Nothing good will come of this. And it will get nerfed. Last time perplex was this powerful, we got the rule of three.

[Kaitouace]

Meanwhile, while you go after his dinky pieces, KCGL, has fried you for 6 3 times. So in order to whittle down the perplexes to where you don't need to hit GL's 23, he whittles you down to where you can't hit his 20 anymore.

It's really the same problem that used to plague the paramedics. It wasn't that you couldn't deal with it, it was that you had to send a bulk of your force to deal with a small-point piece that was capable of swinging the game in their favor, your opponent could sit back and take swipes at the bulk of your force.

It's a good thing KCGL is retired, then. And most unretired Perplex pieces aren't "dinky".

[absolutvt69]

It unbalances the game FAR too much. Perplex has already been an overly exploited power. This will result in some sort of ridiculously powerful strategy, GL Tanks, Jakeem abuse. Nothing good will come of this. And it will get nerfed. Last time perplex was this powerful, we got the rule of three.

Explain the Jakeem abuse... both Defend and the JSA TA use UNMODIFIED defense... so it wouldn't matter what you Perplexed Jakeem's defense to his teammates would still get his base value.

I see a lot of complaints that don't seem quite viable. Honestly I don't care either way. If someone wants to bump up their defense that's one less damage or attack value for them. Now when someone goes to Perplex the decision won't just be attack or damage... but defense as well.

[xmastree]

It's a good thing KCGL is retired, then. And most unretired Perplex pieces aren't "dinky".

You do realize that the crisis Hal jordan can carry three sheild people and two perplexers to make his range thirteen, while nerfing your own range, right? This will not end well.

[ludd_gang]

It may not be the new ICWO, as with ICWO you can assign it to anyone you wish which means the already great figures become even more dominant.

ICWO couldn't target foes. That is the main potential for abuse, IMO.

Is it "broken"? Nah, not with retirement.

But many of us play unrestricted. WK can devalue all of the collectables they sell by making unrestricted ridiculously unbalanced, but in doing so they hurt the collectibility of their game.

I don't think it is broken outside of stacking Perplex. But that may prove to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

[xmastree]

Explain the Jakeem abuse... both Defend and the JSA TA use UNMODIFIED defense... so it wouldn't matter what you Perplexed Jakeem's defense to his teammates would still get his base value.

I see a lot of complaints that don't seem quite viable. Honestly I don't care either way. If someone wants to bump up their defense that's one less damage or attack value for them. Now when someone goes to Perplex the decision won't just be attack or damage... but defense as well.
Now while everyne's sitting with 19 defense, perplexers and sheild around Jakeem will make him virtually unstoppable. Range of 11. And the ability to perples down attack values of anyone who can possibly hit. All of a sudden your 12 attack needs a ten to hit anyone near Jakeem...

[Prof. Aragorn]

Just means outsiders is that much cooler.

Besides, it's not like you can sue storm alternate fantastic four that defense value or even chain it via jsa or anything.

And considering that it costs 13 points to possess it on your first click . . .

Or 5 points on your second . . .

And yet energy shield deflection and combat reflexes are essentially 1 point per click with their +2 to the defense . . .

[Marlow]

I think Perplex "Stacking" is the problem, that is what was the problem with Hookers. I do not mind it lasting until the next turn, it allows it to work defensivly.

[absolutvt69]

Now while everyne's sitting with 19 defense, perplexers and sheild around Jakeem will make him virtually unstoppable. Range of 11. And the ability to perples down attack values of anyone who can possibly hit. All of a sudden your 12 attack needs a ten to hit anyone near Jakeem...

How many Perplexers are on this team? They're boosting his defense while knocking down your attack... I'm just curious how many you have and how much they cost.

[spiderman9797]

ICWO couldn't target foes. That is the main potential for abuse, IMO.
Thinking about it more, I'm tending to agree with you more. Having the ability to bring down your opponent's damage value from a 5 to a 2 is pretty huge.

I suppose, though, that Outsiders is just that much more of a valuable TA now.



But many of us play unrestricted. WK can devalue all of the collectables they sell by making unrestricted ridiculously unbalanced, but in doing so they hurt the collectibility of their game.

I don't think it is broken outside of stacking Perplex. But that may prove to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
I don't play much at all anymore, and they guys that I rarely do play with play Restricted so I don't have anything to worry about. You, however, have good reason to be unhappy with this change.

[tyroman]

This poll is very Perplexing. :p Just ask any Shield agent.

[Kaitouace]

You do realize that the crisis Hal jordan can carry three sheild people and two perplexers to make his range thirteen, while nerfing your own range, right? This will not end well.


I realize that by carrying all those people, Hal's speed is reduced by 2 so he's only getting one extra square of range with that shot. I also know that almost every time I've faced Hal, he's become next to useless after one good shot to the face. The fact that he's only got 7 clicks is kind of rough for a 157 point figure. All that Perplex will make him more viable down the stretch as he's still got a 9 AV and 18 DV if he uses his Perplex on his Defense but like I was saying before. What's the big deal? Hal was already able to cart Perplexers around and amp up his damage while boosting his range with Contingency Plan.

Heck, I ran up against a team that utilized that strategy last week (with an added bonus of Crisis Green Arrow rocking Trick Shot). With my Justice League International team, I ran Flash up and knocked GA off RCE neutering Trick Shot and had Mr. Miracle use Outwit and cover Icons Wonder Woman until she was close enough to Charge GL to oblivion while Rookie Origin Booster Gold and Crisis Blue Beetle played clean-up along with Icons Aquaman. In the end I only lost OotS Batman (because I totally forgot about Trick Shot).

[xmastree]

No. Jakeem himself has both perplex and defend. You anly need two cheap perplex peices (yep, Multiple man) And three generic shield agents...

Jakeem -126
2 Exp. Multiple man - 64
3 Sheild snipers -66

With 44 points left for whatever else you enjoy. Most likely an outwitter or feats. And that's just 300... imagine the abuse in 400. 500.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Meanwhile, while you go after his dinky pieces, KCGL, has fried you for 6 3 times. So in order to whittle down the perplexes to where you don't need to hit GL's 23, he whittles you down to where you can't hit his 20 anymore.

It's really the same problem that used to plague the paramedics. It wasn't that you couldn't deal with it, it was that you had to send a bulk of your force to deal with a small-point piece that was capable of swinging the game in their favor, your opponent could sit back and take swipes at the bulk of your force.

For 6? Not if I base him with a brick, against who he can do only 4 now. And thanks to modern dial design, that brick may well be able to hurt you more effectively even after you hit him.

[absolutvt69]

No. Jakeem himself has both perplex and defend. You anly need two cheap perplex peices (yep, Multiple man) And three generic shield agents...

Jakeem -126
2 Exp. Multiple man - 64
3 Sheild snipers -66

With 44 points left for whatever else you enjoy. Most likely an outwitter or feats. And that's just 300... imagine the abuse in 400. 500.

But then you're not perplexing down anyone's attacks... and who on that team is doing damage exactly? Jakeem? How does that team handle Stealth? How does it handle Poison? How does it handle anything it needs to Outwit? How does it handle Isolation? Poor Teamwork?

[Gentlegamer]

There is only one thing I know.


I like girls. :)


That is all.There is only one thing I know.

Girls don't like Manchine. :eek:

That is all.

[pxb006]

I think the changes made to both perplex and outwit made them too powerful.

[Kite-Man]

Big part of my problem. You shouldn't need Perplex to win. If I don't pack Perplex but my opponent does, it formerly would just help my opponent on offense. Now it can help him on offense and defense. Its usefulness has increased 100%.

Yeah. It sucks.

None of my favourite figures have Outwit OR Perplex.

(Except you, Paste-Pot Pete (http://loloracaud.free.fr/vo/strangetalesv1/124.jpg). Shhh. I didn't forget about you. I know. Ben and Johnny need to TEAM UP to battle you.)

[xmastree]

Jakeem and two Multiple men. That's three perplexers to perplex down attack. I'm not sure what you're missing here...

Outwit? Keep Jakeem in the middle and have the sipers boost each other to take it out?

Stealth? Just move the damn team and base them. Won't do #### against 19 defense. Hell, toss in dr. Mid-night and you've got a team that can't get killed this side of poison...

[absolutvt69]

Jakeem and two Multiple men. That's three perplexers to perplex down attack. I'm not sure what you're missing here...

Outwit? Keep Jakeem in the middle and have the sipers boost each other to take it out?

Stealth? Just move the damn team and base them. Won't do #### against 19 defense. Hell, toss in dr. Mid-night and you've got a team that can't get killed this side of poison...

I'm not missing anything. My point was you can't Perplex down attack AND Perplex up your defense. It's either or.

Now while everyne's sitting with 19 defense, perplexers and sheild around Jakeem will make him virtually unstoppable. Range of 11. And the ability to perples down attack values of anyone who can possibly hit. All of a sudden your 12 attack needs a ten to hit anyone near Jakeem...


And that's really not that great of a team, especially when your SHIELD snipers get based and can't use their RCE. That team has no primary attackers. You're doing 3 damage at most without using your Perplexes on that... and then you can't do defense. The whole thing is based around not being able to hit Jakeem which a good player will have built for. And I notice you had nothing for Poor Teamwork or Isolation... or how about Communication Breakdown? Seriously that team's a one-trick pony.

And nevermind that it would take forever to move your whole team as a single unit to base someone in stealth.

[Miraclo]

I don't think the biggest impact will be the ability to boost defense with Perplex. I think it will be the ability to lower your opponent's damage value. This could make damage reducers much better than they were before, but it also would make Perplex of your own almost mandatory on your teams to keep yourself from being neutered. Who's afraid of KC or E2 Superman when his damage value has been perplexed down to 2?

I'll hold out final judgement until we see a few tourneys go by under the new rules, but I'm having a hard time seeing this as a great thing for the game. I agree. I will have to try this out and see it in action, but it seems to me we are likely to see a great deal of Perplex being used every turn, and some of it will now be used to undo or counter what was just Perplexed by his opponent.

[absolutvt69]

BTW the cheapest front-loaded Perplexer after the new rules go into effect... Alfred Pennyworth. After that? E Question at 53 points.

[xmastree]

And you need to perplex up defense, why?

As someone earlier pointed out, you can't perplex than share the value...

BFC? Ever hear of ordinary day?

The snipers get based, than thier blocking line of fire from other figures. I think you are so set on proving this to be the greatest change ever that you're refusing to see exactly how over-powered they've made a power that didn't need to be changed.

The fact that three perplexes can make certain that no one this side of ultimate hulk can hurt any brick figure is frikin ridiculous. The ability to make twelve attack down to a nine. The ability to change an eight range into a five. And choose to do each of these things while clearing?

And you don't see how this is a game breaker?

[rancidtwinkie]

I agree I think the figures available for constructed will make Perplex balanced.

I think Perplex will have more versatility, but I don't see it as being broken.

As for the GL Tank, I have run 3 E Hive Troopers, 2 Blackhawks, a V Badoon and CR Green Lantern. Running Shot for 6 damage with 13 AV. Next turn a couple of pot shots with EE or 4-5 damage and then RS for 6 again.

[absolutvt69]

And you need to perplex up defense, why?

As someone earlier pointed out, you can't perplex than share the value...

BFC? Ever hear of ordinary day?

The snipers get based, than thier blocking line of fire from other figures. I think you are so set on proving this to be the greatest change ever that you're refusing to see exactly how over-powered they've made a power that didn't need to be changed.

The fact that three perplexes can make certain that no one this side of ultimate hulk can hurt any brick figure is frikin ridiculous. The ability to make twelve attack down to a nine. The ability to change an eight range into a five. And choose to do each of these things while clearing?

And you don't see how this is a game breaker?

That was me that pointed that out.. You were the one talking about a 12 needing a 10 to hit Jakeem... So I assumed you had Perplexed his defense from a 19 to a 20 to a 21 to a 22. Ever heard of theme teams? Your ordinary day won't help much then. I actually don't think this is the "greatest change ever" (you know someone's out of things to say when they resort to putting words in other people's mouths), I simply don't see it being as gamebreaking as you're making it out to be and certainly not with the team and example you're using.

[remywokeup]

The only real debate to be had over this is the point-cost debate, in my opinion. Old figures with Perplex are have now paid the same number of points for the power, but now get more versatility out of it.

Are these figures now undercosted? That's the question to ask.

[rancidtwinkie]

The fact that three perplexes can make certain that no one this side of ultimate hulk can hurt any brick figure is frikin ridiculous. The ability to make twelve attack down to a nine. The ability to change an eight range into a five. And choose to do each of these things while clearing?

And you don't see how this is a game breaker?

You are assuming that your team will have three Perplexers that can target opposing figures without being exposed to counter-fire. Oh, and I you are also assuming that your opponent has absolutely no Perplex at all? Or Outwit? Or CCE/RCE?

Your opponents must all be real chumps.

[ludd_gang]

I will once again point out I have not playtested yet.

When I first started the game, I planned to hit an 18 defense. I wanted access to an effective 12 attack so I could get that 72% to hit.

As the game went on, 19 defenses and even an occassional 20 defense needed to be cracked. I could be content rolling for a 58% to hit.

Now Perplex rachets up defense again. Yes, I can counter-Perplex. I can Outwit. There is lots of stuff that will help.

Did we want to see defense augmented? Inarguably, that is what this tweak does.

[Tarnish]

*shrugs*

Virtually every character you used in your examples is retired. Not worried about them. And if Question wants to hide in Stealth and Perplex up his defense to 19 while I wreck the rest of his team? Good for him.

It's a good thing KCGL is retired, then. And most unretired Perplex pieces aren't "dinky".

So just a big "#@$% you" to all the home players and Unrestricted Tournaments then? By the same logic HSS could be changed to double rather than 1/2 range of ranged attacks and it would be fine if the next tourny series was all sealed and nobody in SI had HSS.

The "well only retired figures will make this broken" argument fails to consider that a vast (perhaps silent) majority of HC is played at home or unrestricted tournys. It's not a matter of "Is Perplex teh borken now?" It's why add another whole level of effectiveness to an already very useful ability?

I can easily see figs like Tharok or Hourman that Start with Perplex and INV doing some series damage simply by keeping attackers damage capped at 2.

Tarnish

[rancidtwinkie]

On the negative side, the new Mr Fantastic is going to be brutal with Brilliant Tactician - particularly against Scientist or FF teams.

-2 to your attack and +2 to all of my team's defense! Yowwwie.

[Granite Moose]

Don't know yet. A lot of the "strategies" going into this new Perplex change aren't exactly new ideas and have been around for a while.

Plus people want to start Perplexing up their defenses? Fine with me. Much better than people Perplexing their Damage up to 6 - 8.

There also a lot of "Perplex is the new ICwO" as well. But IMO the reason ICwO was so bad was because it came out with Legacy with several REAL abusive figures that didn't need the help to begin with. Lately when I've been able to use ICwO it's been with the more current figures that certainly DO need the help (Young Avengers for example). And with the higher defenses in general going around, I expect to see a lot of perplexed down defenses and perplexed up AVs. This new change is just going to keep us away from the original problem with Perplex in the first place: People boosting up good characters with good AVs to ridiculous damage values. I think this might slow the game down more (higher defenses = more missing) but as long as the Perplex gets used for anything that's not Damage, I couldn't really care too much.

Pending actually playing with the new changes, I'm in the same camp as Kaitouace. It might make the game a little longer with more misses, but that's something I can live with. In fact, I'm used to missing so it won't really affect my game that much. :p

[absolutvt69]

So just a big "#@$% you" to all the home players and Unrestricted Tournaments then? By the same logic HSS could be changed to double rather than 1/2 range of ranged attacks and it would be fine if the next tourny series was all sealed and nobody in SI had HSS.

The "well only retired figures will make this broken" argument fails to consider that a vast (perhaps silent) majority of HC is played at home or unrestricted tournys. It's not a matter of "Is Perplex teh borken now?" It's why add another whole level of effectiveness to an already very useful ability?

I can easily see figs like Tharok or Hourman that Start with Perplex and INV doing some series damage simply by keeping attackers damage capped at 2.

Tarnish

Well for home games I imagine you can use any rules you want and WK isn't going to care. For Unrestricted games, those seem to be few and far between and the prizes aren't usually high value ones so I wouldn't expect to see a ton of power teams. I agree Perplex didn't need to be changed but I think this does make it easier to understand/more in line with Outwit. Like I said, either way I don't really care.

[xmastree]

That was me that pointed that out.. You were the one talking about a 12 needing a 10 to hit Jakeem... So I assumed you had Perplexed his defense from a 19 to a 20 to a 21 to a 22. Ever heard of theme teams? Your ordinary day won't help much then. I actually don't think this is the "greatest change ever" (you know someone's out of things to say when they resort to putting words in other people's mouths), I simply don't see it being as gamebreaking as you're making it out to be and certainly not with the team and example you're using.

12-3 = 9

9 Needs a ten to hit a 19.

If posistioned right, that's a 10 needed by DARKSIED to hit a frikkin shield sniper.
You assume I'm out of things to say simply because I bring out in the open what you are obviously trying to say. Anyone has the slightest thing negetive to say about this you jump to defend it.

Not game-breaking? The people you play with must not utilize thier forces effectively if they can't figure out how to make use a power that now nerfs damage...

[Kaitouace]

Well for home games I imagine you can use any rules you want and WK isn't going to care. For Unrestricted games, those seem to be few and far between and the prizes aren't usually high value ones so I wouldn't expect to see a ton of power teams. I agree Perplex didn't need to be changed but I think this does make it easier to understand/more in line with Outwit. Like I said, either way I don't really care.

That's where I stand on that issue.

[rancidtwinkie]

Not game-breaking? The people you play with must not utilize thier forces effectively if they can't figure out how to make use a power that now nerfs damage...

Ditto to you if the people you play with can't figure out how to counter it.

Leaving Thanos out in the open to be Perplexed by three different figures is not what I would call a great strategy.

[Kaitouace]

12-3 = 9

9 Needs a ten to hit a 19.

If posistioned right, that's a 10 needed by DARKSIED to hit a frikkin shield sniper.
You assume I'm out of things to say simply because I bring out in the open what you are obviously trying to say. Anyone has the slightest thing negetive to say about this you jump to defend it.

Not game-breaking? The people you play with must not utilize thier forces effectively if they can't figure out how to make use a power that now nerfs damage...

In that case I'll just use my Contingency Plan's 3 tokens on Darkseid's AV to boost it back to 12 and then use his Special Power to ignore the peons and shoot Jakeem in the face. Problem solved.

[szude]

Well for home games I imagine you can use any rules you want and WK isn't going to care. For Unrestricted games, those seem to be few and far between and the prizes aren't usually high value ones so I wouldn't expect to see a ton of power teams. I agree Perplex didn't need to be changed but I think this does make it easier to understand/more in line with Outwit. Like I said, either way I don't really care.

Ok I need to ask again then (or maybe it was in another thread, I forget)....why didn't the Outwit & perplex range change to 8 along with TK? Why is the streamlining selective?

[ludd_gang]

Well for home games I imagine you can use any rules you want and WK isn't going to care. For Unrestricted games, those seem to be few and far between and the prizes aren't usually high value ones so I wouldn't expect to see a ton of power teams. I agree Perplex didn't need to be changed but I think this does make it easier to understand/more in line with Outwit. Like I said, either way I don't really care.

That's where I stand on that issue.

So, how does this address the concerns about game balance using the official rules? :confused:

[absolutvt69]

12-3 = 9

9 Needs a ten to hit a 19.

If posistioned right, that's a 10 needed by DARKSIED to hit a frikkin shield sniper.
You assume I'm out of things to say simply because I bring out in the open what you are obviously trying to say. Anyone has the slightest thing negetive to say about this you jump to defend it.

Not game-breaking? The people you play with must not utilize thier forces effectively if they can't figure out how to make use a power that now nerfs damage...

But then you're wasting it on ONE figure (as opposed to all my figures having to hit a +3 defense). What about every other figure on my team? If I don't attack w/ that figure then you've wasted your Perplex. Please don't tell me what I'm "obviously trying to say". You don't know me better than me. All I'm saying is your Jakeem Thunder example is weak. It's simply NOT a good team. There are a ton of ways to beat it. I'd take my chances with a team of Skrulls against it honestly. I may not win but I think it'd do alright. And lose the "you don't agree with me so you obviously don't know how to play right"... I'm not the best player by any stretch but I'm no slouch either. So drop the "you must suck at this" routine.

[absolutvt69]

Ok I need to ask again then (or maybe it was in another thread, I forget)....why didn't the Outwit & perplex range change to 8 along with TK? Why is the streamlining selective?

I think that's a fair question and Seth is probably the only one who can answer that. I would have been fine with Outwit and Perplex dropping to 8 range as well.

[rancidtwinkie]

I think that's a fair question and Seth is probably the only one who can answer that. I would have been fine with Outwit and Perplex dropping to 8 range as well.

I was looking forward to it. :ermm:

[absolutvt69]

So, how does this address the concerns about game balance using the official rules? :confused:

Ummm every other post I've made in this thread besides that one?

[MattMinus]

12-3 = 9

9 Needs a ten to hit a 19.

If posistioned right, that's a 10 needed by DARKSIED to hit a frikkin shield sniper.
You assume I'm out of things to say simply because I bring out in the open what you are obviously trying to say. Anyone has the slightest thing negetive to say about this you jump to defend it.

Not game-breaking? The people you play with must not utilize thier forces effectively if they can't figure out how to make use a power that now nerfs damage...

If you can't see how using Jakeem Thunder as your main attacker is heeeeeeeeelarious, you must not us your forces very effectively.


C'mon, Jakeem Thunder!
Jakeem Thunder?!?!?!?!?
If you're intimidated by Jakeem Thunder, you're probably also scared of ladybugs.:laugh:

[rancidtwinkie]

In that case I'll just use my Contingency Plan's 3 tokens on Darkseid's AV to boost it back to 12 and then use his Special Power to ignore the peons and shoot Jakeem in the face. Problem solved.

Communication Breakdown is more and more my favorite BFC.

[Kaitouace]

So, how does this address the concerns about game balance using the official rules? :confused:

There's any one of a dozen different ways to neuter this strategy. It's not a gamebreaking strategy because this technique/change alone isn't good enough to beat all comers. Not even close. People have dealt with extreme ranges before. People have dealt with extreme defenses before. People have dealt with "abusive" stat-pumping before.

This situation isn't particularly unique and brand-new and I don't see how it's any more "broken" than using Contingency Plan and some Perplex.

[szude]

For the people that said 'the change is a good balance'....where's the balance?

[ludd_gang]

Ummm every other post I've made in this thread besides that one?

My point being that this post seems to dismiss unrestricted play as irrelevant to you. That is fair enough, but it is relevant to the issue.

Moreover the question becomes "why did they do it?" Sure, it may be fine in restricted, but why introduce a seemingly unnecessary change if it unbalances unrestricted?

Like I say, I like the streamlining. I like the flavor. I fully acknowledge this may not be a gamebreaker. I'm itching to playtest. I'll be curious what yall think too as time goes by.

[Kite-Man]

Guess I'll always have to put 3 Perplexers on my team to give Veteran Trapster the 20 Defense he deserves.

21 on hindering terrain!

[szude]

Explain the Jakeem abuse... both Defend and the JSA TA use UNMODIFIED defense... so it wouldn't matter what you Perplexed Jakeem's defense to his teammates would still get his base value.


I'm glad you pointed out it's unmodified, I was thinking Jakeem and Spectre would be nightmares.

[ludd_gang]

I'm glad you pointed out it's unmodified, I was thinking Jakeem and Spectre would be nightmares.

Sidekick lets you lend modified defense, unless it was errattaed.

If it's not errattaed already, I hope it will be. :)

[MattMinus]

For the people that said 'the change is a good balance'....where's the balance?

Balancing offense with defense. Between contingency plan, opportunist, enhance and perplex, there are several ways to beef up yourr attacks and make them absolutely devastating. Why not add something to help counter that on the defensive side?

[Kenny Wisdom]

I, once again, voted for good balance. I'm not sure if it's actually a *good balance* per se, but I like the change and think that it makes more sense. It does power Perplex up quite a bit, but it can always be outwitted and such. It doesn't make it game-breaking or anything, at least, in my opinion.