Hierarchy of Night Powers

[DarqFeonix]

I've tried to track this down in the FAQ and other threads, but no luck, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Is there a set Hierarchy to role powers at night, or is it dependent on who gets their PM's in to the mod first? Or - most scary - is it really up to the mod as to which will make the better write-up/fun game.

The obvious ones come from a 1-for-1 action at night. Mafia-A targets Town-B with a kill, however Town-B targets Mafia-A with a Roleblock. Does the Roleblock cancel out the Kill?

From a similar route, Mafia-A vs. Serial Killer-X. Mafia-A targets Serial Killer-X, and vice versa. Both killed? Or just one?

Then we get into 3/4-person scenarios. Mafia-A targets Town-B for a Kill. Town-B targets Town-C for a Doctor. However Serial Killer-X targets Town-C for a Kill same night. Is Town-C saved before Mafia-A Kills Town-B?

I've used the obvious powers above, but I'm actually more wondering on others:

Is a RoleBlock more powerful than a PGO? Or will the RB'er die before "blocking" the PGO?

Can a Misdirector avoid a Roleblock? Which has "seniority"?

[kontrol]

I've tried to track this down in the FAQ and other threads, but no luck, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Is there a set Hierarchy to role powers at night, or is it dependent on who gets their PM's in to the mod first? Or - most scary - is it really up to the mod as to which will make the better write-up/fun game.

The obvious ones come from a 1-for-1 action at night. Mafia-A targets Town-B with a kill, however Town-B targets Mafia-A with a Roleblock. Does the Roleblock cancel out the Kill?

From a similar route, Mafia-A vs. Serial Killer-X. Mafia-A targets Serial Killer-X, and vice versa. Both killed? Or just one?

Then we get into 3/4-person scenarios. Mafia-A targets Town-B for a Kill. Town-B targets Town-C for a Doctor. However Serial Killer-X targets Town-C for a Kill same night. Is Town-C saved before Mafia-A Kills Town-B?

I've used the obvious powers above, but I'm actually more wondering on others:

Is a RoleBlock more powerful than a PGO? Or will the RB'er die before "blocking" the PGO?

Can a Misdirector avoid a Roleblock? Which has "seniority"?

My understanding is Kills always come last.

And simultaneous kills are just that...simultaneous.

Normally RB can block a PGO, but I've seen it happen where PGO can't be stopped short of lynching.

Not sure about the misdirector vs Roleblocker though. That probably depends on the mod running it.

[Magnito]

Role Block trumps everything. If the RBer targets you, you loose all powers that night.

After that, every power goes through as much as possible.

The real problem is when a paradox forms. I had one in a game not too long ago involving a bus driver a role blocker and a misdirector.

The misdirector forced the role blocker to target another player. But the busdriver had targeted that player and the misdirector. Thus, the blocker was forced to target the misdirector. But if that happens, then the blocker was never misdirected. But if the blocker was never misdirected then he targets his original target and no one blocked the misdirector. So the misdirector gets his action and forces the blocker to target him. But then he is block...you get where I am going here.

[CarlosMucha]

Block and misdirection is first.

My own rule is that everybody must complette his actions. SPECIALLY the ones who die. The ones whi die completted his actions as a last heroic or malicious act!

[m_a_caque]

ouch. that is a headache. maybe the RBer should have been misdirected onto the bus-driver "randomly"

Role Block trumps everything. If the RBer targets you, you loose all powers that night.

After that, every power goes through as much as possible.

The real problem is when a paradox forms. I had one in a game not too long ago involving a bus driver a role blocker and a misdirector.

The misdirector forced the role blocker to target another player. But the busdriver had targeted that player and the misdirector. Thus, the blocker was forced to target the misdirector. But if that happens, then the blocker was never misdirected. But if the blocker was never misdirected then he targets his original target and no one blocked the misdirector. So the misdirector gets his action and forces the blocker to target him. But then he is block...you get where I am going here.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I made the executive decision that busdrivers take precedence over misdirectors on account of it being annoying when misdirectors try to target the busdriver. (Which they definitely will once one claims)

[CarlosMucha]

what is the bus driver role about?

and since I ask that. what the "janitor" exactly do in Mafia games?

[Magnito]

ouch. that is a headache. maybe the RBer should have been misdirected onto the bus-driver "randomly"
Couldn't be done. It was the type of misdirector that got to pick the new target. There was no randomization involved.

[get_1]

I made the executive decision that busdrivers take precedence over misdirectors on account of it being annoying when misdirectors try to target the busdriver. (Which they definitely will once one claims)

I call lame, sir. Lame.

Imagine the fun we could have had together...

[michiganj24]

Bus drive makes any who targeted Player a target Player B and vice versa( a headache waiting to happen)
A janitor cleans up. He makes it so that when a person dies no one finds out who they are except usually the mafia. so it gives them a claim that should be safe
what is the bus driver role about?

and since I ask that. what the "janitor" exactly do in Mafia games?

[CarlosMucha]

Bus drive makes any who targeted Player a target Player B and vice versa( a headache waiting to happen)
A janitor cleans up. He makes it so that when a person dies no one finds out who they are except usually the mafia. so it gives them a claim that should be safe

thanks!!

so the janitor always learn the identity of the one who he "clean"?

[Magnito]

No, not always. Depends on the janitor.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I call lame, sir. Lame.

Imagine the fun we could have had together...

There is nothing fun about a triple misdirected busdriver for a mod.

I don't know what some people's obsession with targeting Rokk Krinn is. :cheeky:

[Shadow40]

There is nothing fun about a triple misdirected busdriver for a mod.

I don't know what some people's obsession with targeting Rokk Krinn is. :cheeky:


The mafia don made me do it. :p

[get_1]

There is nothing fun about a triple misdirected busdriver for a mod.

I don't know what some people's obsession with targeting Rokk Krinn is. :cheeky:

I only did it after I found out he was a busdriver, and I wasn't particularly in the mood to contribute to the town other than add a little "spice" to the game at that point. :cheeky:

[DarqFeonix]

Couple more scenarios I've run into in recent games I'd like the opinion on the peanut gallery on:

1) Night-Princess (i.e. everyone is roleblocked save a select few) is activated... but you have an Unblockable role (say, the SK). Does that action go through?

2) Busdriver targets a Jailkept Player X (and also player Y). Should the Player X remain "frozen", but other players targeting Player X target Player Y instead?

[PaxZRake]

I'd work those:

1) Yes, the unblockable action goes through.

2) Player Y would be the one jailkept. Have the busdrive happen first.

[sstralkowski]

Rb & Misd always take place first. Bus driver is just a sort fo misdirection. Unique scenarios always pop up so it's best to handle each individually. I have a loose set of rules about it, but they can bend if it will give me an aneurism to try and be rigid. if all else fails, tell all parties involved that they failed and make a huge mess in th write-up. :laugh:

As for your specific scenarios, 1) Night Princess trumps all. No exceptions. 2) Listen to Pax.

As an aside, I usually will make inventors and doublers immune to RB and misd just to make the night action process swift.

[DarqFeonix]

Another opinion of like to hear from other mods, as I treated this differently in Princess Bride than Mal did in OOTS:

Unblockable action (be it inherent in role or person was Guided) hits a Jailkept target. Does their action go through?

[PaxZRake]

Another opinion of like to hear from other mods, as I treated this differently in Princess Bride than Mal did in OOTS:

Unblockable action (be it inherent in role or person was Guided) hits a Jailkept target. Does their action go through?

Really depends on the type of jailkeep.

There's two major variations that I know of.

One is the jailkeep that roleblocks and doctors someone.

The other is the jailkeep that roleblocks someone and everyone else targeting that someone.

Obviously Jailkeep #1 the action should go through, unless it's a kill action.

Jailkeep #2 depends more on how you word the Roleblock Nexus part of it. If it makes the target untargetable, well, I think that speaks for itself. If it creates a Roleblock Nexus, a guide should work fine.

[malakim2099]

Another opinion of like to hear from other mods, as I treated this differently in Princess Bride than Mal did in OOTS:

Unblockable action (be it inherent in role or person was Guided) hits a Jailkept target. Does their action go through?

Well, it didn't come up in the game, as you just asked the hypothetical...

But jailkeeping, to me, has always been protecting the target as well as RBing them. So that's why I said no.

(Of course, jailkeeping an unblockable killer does no good whatsoever, by the same rationale in my eyes.)

[DarqFeonix]

Well, it didn't come up in the game, as you just asked the hypothetical...

But jailkeeping, to me, has always been protecting the target as well as RBing them. So that's why I said no.

(Of course, jailkeeping an unblockable killer does no good whatsoever, by the same rationale in my eyes.)

Hence the reason I asked at the time. I knew it could go either way, and better to ask the hypothetical then just go with the plan and hope for the best.

I'll have to take this into account for future games... the way I saw a Jailkeep was basically walls go up around the target. If an unblockable action could bust out of said wall, I would treat it as if they can bust in, as well. I'll just clarify for future games.

[malakim2099]

Hence the reason I asked at the time. I knew it could go either way, and better to ask the hypothetical then just go with the plan and hope for the best.

I'll have to take this into account for future games... the way I saw a Jailkeep was basically walls go up around the target. If an unblockable action could bust out of said wall, I would treat it as if they can bust in, as well. I'll just clarify for future games.

I think we need a L5 Mod to arbitrate these things. I know I made a few goofs in that game that I'm not entirely proud of.

[get_1]

I think we need a L5 Mod to arbitrate these things. I know I made a few goofs in that game that I'm not entirely proud of.
I'm here! :noid:


Jailkeep - No one can target that player period, and that player is roleblocked.


That is the way I see it. Hence, an unblockable killer would still be making kills...just that no one could target him.


I never understood the position that a jailkeep was a simple roleblock + doctor, allowing roles like cops/etc. to continue targeting him. You're thrown in jail. No one gets to you at night, and you don't get to do anything to anyone else. You're locked up.

[Antipathy]

Another opinion of like to hear from other mods, as I treated this differently in Princess Bride than Mal did in OOTS:

Unblockable action (be it inherent in role or person was Guided) hits a Jailkept target. Does their action go through?

I'm not a mod, but IMO being jailkept means you can't be targeted. So the unblockable action would fail.

[CarlosMucha]

I'm not a mod, but IMO being jailkept means you can't be targeted. So the unblockable action would fail.

when I used the jail keeper power that power block and protect the target. Block every action of the target. BUT the target is protect only from dead, not other actions.

[malakim2099]

when I used the jail keeper power that power block and protect the target. Block every action of the target. BUT the target is protect only from dead, not other actions.

Yeah, that's why I specify Jailkeeper vs Jailkeeper+

Jailkeeper - protects target from nightkills (but not other effects), blocks target

Jailkeeper+ - takes target completely off grid, blocks target.

[sstralkowski]

Jailkeep - No one can target that player period, and that player is roleblocked.

I never understood the position that a jailkeep was a simple roleblock + doctor, allowing roles like cops/etc. to continue targeting him. You're thrown in jail. No one gets to you at night, and you don't get to do anything to anyone else. You're locked up.

Funny, I never understood the opposite. If a cop investigates someone's room to find evidence about their alignment or a flavor cop investigates their room to find a clue, what difference does it make if the player whose room they investigate is in jail or just roaming the streets? People can visit you while you're in jail as well. Except no one would try and kill you on one of those visits, hence the RB+doctor idea. If you adapt it to another theme and say have the jailkeep just bear hug people, then I can see exceptions, but I think the original intent of the jailkeep role was to be RB+doc. As a mod, it just seems a lot easier to balance the role that way.

EDIT: I'm with Carlos. And Pax & Mal explaind it just fine.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Jailkeep to me stops all targeting. Details like "in jail" and "room checking" are just flavor to me.

[PaxZRake]

And this is why you really need to clarify what your powers do.

Something as simple as "Jailkeeper" means roughly three things.

[malakim2099]

And this is why you really need to clarify what your powers do.

Something as simple as "Jailkeeper" means roughly three things.

Yeah. I try and be specific about in game effects in the roles, then just say roughly what it is. Unless the role is pretty obvious. (Like, cop, roleblocker.)

[sstralkowski]

And this is why you really need to clarify what your powers do.

Something as simple as "Jailkeeper" means roughly three things.

I always specify as best I can for my power descriptions. Especially for roles like Jailkeep that can have multiple definitions.

[PaxZRake]

Yea, for my last game (GLWar2) I tried not adding in role descriptions for anything (except for experimental roles) just to see the kinds of questions players would ask.

Interesting stuff.

[CarlosMucha]

I don't like to explain the powers in only one word. :p

...and some of my role powers are incredible complex to explain. :p

[malakim2099]

I don't like to explain the powers in only one word. :p

...and some of my role powers are incredible complex to explain. :p

Heh, I think the most complex role I got from you was Damien for All Stars 4... which wasn't even your game!!! :laugh:

Let's see...

COIE - jailkeeper
Movies - unnightkillable SK
EW2 - double voter :(