Fortitude?

[GreeneM]

I was reading the fortitude card and i saw it said on the recently reprinted card it said you couldn't outwit the character powers does this mean you can outwit the characters abilites such as indomitable or ?

[KillerSavage]

I don't think so.

[lancelot]

I was reading the fortitude card and i saw it said on the recently reprinted card it said you couldn't outwit the character powers does this mean you can outwit the characters abilites such as indomitable or ?

You actually can. As you said, it only protects the printed powers, but not the abilities, so Outwit away the Flight, Carry, Transporter M/A, & Indomitable.

[Thunderwebs]

You actually can. As you said, it only protects the printed powers, but not the abilities, so Outwit away the Flight, Carry, Transporter M/A, & Indomitable.

Also Sharpshooter and Duo. ;)

[WolvieFan9]

And soaring!

Oh, sorry, I was flashbacking to 2007...

[Drunky]

Also Sharpshooter and Duo. ;)

And Swim, Giant Stride and Capture (needs rolling doubles for the latter). :p

[charlzm]

You can not put Fortitude on Sharpshooter or Duo. Pre-req is the fist symbol.

[thele]

I find this all very interesting. As HeroClix has evolved to be more complicated and allow for new abilities and powers, characters with Fortitude has become far more vulnerable.

Fortitude is still a broken card, but this its fascinating that it there are more ways around it.

-The Le
Seth Johnson speaks at HeroClix World. (http://www.#############.com/hcw/home.aspx)

[WolvieFan9]

I find this all very interesting. As HeroClix has evolved to be more complicated and allow for new abilities and powers, characters with Fortitude has become far more vulnerable.

Fortitude is still a broken card, but this its fascinating that it there are more ways around it.



I hadn't really thought about this issue about Fortitude like that, but I concur on the evolution of the game is devaluing the benefits for the 25 points.

I do disagree that Fortitude is "broken", though. 25 points is a hefty price to pay for this level of protection. The only other feat cards that are of equal price are Repulsor Shield and Mercenary (which goes down with more characters, so it probably won't be 25 points).

[Miraclo]

Fortitude is still a broken card, but this its fascinating that it there are more ways around it.

I can't fully agree that Fortitude is broken; sure, a flat 25 points to protect as it does is going to vary in effectiveness with the number of applicable powers and clicks a piece has, but in general I'd say it's costing more than it should were the cost scaled to the piece's point cost for many of the pieces it ends up being used on. (e.g. 10 points per 100 points of build.) I'd be more inclined to say that Outwit is broken, especially with respect to Defensive powers... not to re-open that ancient debate.

For me, Fortitude remains a fairly necessary card; there are many pieces I'd be unlikely to field without it, and it never feels like a cheat to me. Usually it feels as if I'm being pushed to pay 25 points more for something that should be intrinsic to the character.

We can at least agree that as the game's progressed there are more and more ways around it. :)

[thele]

Allow me to clarify. I think Fortitude is broken in the respect that it is imbalanced on certain characters.

For 25 points it makes a 100 point character better... and I think it's perfect for that. But for the same 25 points it makes a uber characters (E2 Superman) god-like.

So the ultimate problem is that it doesn't scale up very well for powerful figures, whereas it works perfectly for lower level characters.

Think about it -- On the 100 point Young Superman you're looking at 25% increase in cost. On a 317 point E2 Supermann it's only an 8% increase in cost... yet you get the exact same benefit.

And so, a 25 point Fortitude is always better on expensive figures than it is on cheap ones. so yes, it is broken from a design point of view.

[Blue Atoll]

Think about it -- On the 100 point Young Superman you're looking at 25% increase in cost. On a 317 point E2 Supermann it's only an 8% increase in cost... yet you get the exact same benefit.

And so, a 25 point Fortitude is always better on expensive figures than it is on cheap ones. so yes, it is broken from a design point of view.

This is a good reason to see fortitude modified to be an "* for every 100 points, add 25 points to the cost of Fortitude." type of prerequisite. I'd do the same with Repulsor Shield as well.

Wanna play Prime with Fortitude? You had better be in a 750+ point game then (assuming 10% feat cap). At that level, you can put a team together that can handle any of the Supermen w/Fortitude making the utility of the feat more limited.

[Miraclo]

Allow me to clarify. I think Fortitude is broken in the respect that it is imbalanced on certain characters.

For 25 points it makes a 100 point character better... and I think it's perfect for that. But for the same 25 points it makes a uber characters (E2 Superman) god-like.

So the ultimate problem is that it doesn't scale up very well for powerful figures, whereas it works perfectly for lower level characters.

Think about it -- On the 100 point Young Superman you're looking at 25% increase in cost. On a 317 point E2 Supermann it's only an 8% increase in cost... yet you get the exact same benefit.

And so, a 25 point Fortitude is always better on expensive figures than it is on cheap ones. so yes, it is broken from a design point of view.
I understood, but thanks for the clarification.

Given the extreme power of Outwit, I suppose what I'm saying is that Fortitude is overcosted when applied to a 100 pt character, and starts to feel about right to me by the time it's being applied to a 250 pt one -- hence my 10 pts per 100 of a character's point cost. The only thing that makes it feel unbalanced to me is the bit about ignoring Exploit Weakness.

[thele]

Another solution is to make Fortitude a one-shot use, similar to Protected. Or make the opposing character roll for it, similar to Shape Change.

Example 1:
When an opposing character attempts to use Outwit on this character, this character ignores that opposing character's outwit for the rest of turn; and that character cannot use its outwit again this turn. Then remove this feat from the game.

Example 2:
When an opposing character attempts to use Outwit on this character, roll one die. On a result of 3-5, this character becomes immune to outwit before the Outwit is used. On a result of 6, this character becomes immune to outwit after Outwit is used. This effect lasts until the end of the turn.

Of course, this doesn't solve the overall problem with all feats -- its still mathematically better to put it on expensive figures than it is to put it on small figures.

I hope feats are better designed to account for this in the future.

-The Le

[Daredevil15]

Another solution is to make Fortitude a one-shot use, similar to Protected. Or make the opposing character roll for it, similar to Shape Change.

Example 1:
When an opposing character attempts to use Outwit on this character, this character ignores that opposing character's outwit for the rest of turn; and that character cannot use its outwit again this turn. Then remove this feat from the game.

Example 2:
When an opposing character attempts to use Outwit on this character, roll one die. On a result of 3-5, this character becomes immune to outwit before the Outwit is used. On a result of 6, this character becomes immune to outwit after Outwit is used. This effect lasts until the end of the turn.

Of course, this doesn't solve the overall problem with all feats -- its still mathematically better to put it on expensive figures than it is to put it on small figures.

I hope feats are better designed to account for this in the future.

-The Le


I very much disagree with this..outwit destroys teams, Fortitude helps that

[Jarimy123]

Yea fortitude is meant to give a tent pole team a chance. We have figs in this game that are meant to be one man armies. In any given case a well balanced team will destroy a one man army. Fortitude gives them a shot to win and balances things out more. Fortitude isn't close to broken, it's needed in a game where you can get outwit for 27 points. A 27 point figure should not be able to shut down a 317 point figure.

[SimonMoon5]

Exactly. If you had to nerf Fortitude, then I'd prefer something like this:

This character's powers may not be countered by any character with a point cost less than this character's.

But I have never thought that Fortitude was broken. In fact, it often seems too expensive for a purely defensive feat that might not do anything in a particular game (since your opponent might not have outwit or exploit weakness).

[BigDaddyHub]

Of course, this doesn't solve the overall problem with all feats -- its still mathematically better to put it on expensive figures than it is to put it on small figures.

I hope feats are better designed to account for this in the future.

-The Le

I really like what they have done with feats in the last 2 sets. You don't make game changers as feats, but you design feats as features. Relatively inexpensive, yet very effective features. Lunge, flashbang, alias and the like are all useful, but not game changing feats.

[Jarimy123]

Lunge is the closest to game changing. I mean being able to do a 2 movement charge/close comabt expert is pretty good.

[thele]

Feats, in general, are designed to break the rules and unbalance the game. It's ironic that people love Fortitude so much because it does just that.

Fortitude is great for low point figures, but completely broken when applied to power houses.

Power players love Fortitude because they like to use in on expensive power figures. But that doesn't make it balanced or unbroken. That just makes it popular to power players.

It's funny -- no one ever says "Fortitude belongs" on Green Arrow, Hulk, or any other lower point figure. The fact that people consistently scream "it belongs on E2 Superman" or other 250+ point figure just reinforces my point that there is something seriously wrong with it.

-The Le

[SimonMoon5]

It's funny -- no one ever says "Fortitude belongs" on Green Arrow, Hulk, or any other lower point figure. The fact that people consistently scream "it belongs on E2 Superman" or other 250+ point figure just reinforces my point that there is something seriously wrong with it.


The problem's not with Fortitude. The problem's with Outwit being a power that totally nerfs any high point character so that playing a high point character is not really an option. Fortitude fixes a problem; it's not the problem. Without Fortitude (or Power Cosmic/Quintessence), why would anybody play a 250+ point character when they'll be so easily destroyed by Outwit?

[BigDaddyHub]

Lunge is the closest to game changing. I mean being able to do a 2 movement charge/close comabt expert is pretty good.

Yeah, I agree. But at the same time, it isn't in the same league as a Nanobots or even Contingency plan. It is a great move and attack option that is very effective. And tailor made for SI Spider-man!

[thele]

The problem's not with Fortitude. The problem's with Outwit being a power that totally nerfs any high point character so that playing a high point character is not really an option. Fortitude fixes a problem; it's not the problem. Without Fortitude (or Power Cosmic/Quintessence), why would anybody play a 250+ point character when they'll be so easily destroyed by Outwit?

Perhaps then Outwit needs to be fixed?

And if you think about it, the only real issue is that DAMAGE REDUCTION is outwitable. I highly doubt people would scream the blessings of Fortitude so highly if their precious Impervious and Invulnerability were immune to outwit.

How to Fix Feats found here (http://www.#############.com/HCW/Articles.aspx?ID=105).

-The Le

[Jarimy123]

I don't even think people scream that fortitude is such a great feat. I never use it. I play the game well enough that I don't need it, even on a brick, I just never allow them to use their outwit on said brick figure. I've never thought Fortitude was a problem, and haven't really even seen it talked about as being the be all end all of feats. the only instances I would use it would be in a 300 point game with a figure like Green Scar or Apoc or something. Good players dont realy use brick figures though, it's all about balance.

[Hero_guy]

Feats, in general, are designed to break the rules and unbalance the game. It's ironic that people love Fortitude so much because it does just that.

Fortitude is great for low point figures, but completely broken when applied to power houses.

Power players love Fortitude because they like to use in on expensive power figures. But that doesn't make it balanced or unbroken. That just makes it popular to power players.

It's funny -- no one ever says "Fortitude belongs" on Green Arrow, Hulk, or any other lower point figure. The fact that people consistently scream "it belongs on E2 Superman" or other 250+ point figure just reinforces my point that there is something seriously wrong with it.



The cheapest figure with Outwit in the game is 27pts. Oracle and Black Panther. For a combined 54pts, you can make a 317pt figure pretty much not matter in a game. I played Thor Chariot and I had to run away from a shield team with 2, sometimes 3, outwitters on it because it made Thor pretty much powerless. Slapping a 25pt feat to counter that isn't the best solution, I agree with that, but its better than not having Fort. available. Its pretty much fact that any 250+pt figure, that is not a colossal, is usually at a disadvantage anyways. The ones with Power Cosmic and Quintessence fair far better than those without. SBP is tough, but with one Outwitter it means that my swarm of Moloids has a chance to to beat him down (remember they get +1 to AV for every other moloid that attacks the same target, Ro3 max 11AV). I can have 17 moloids and both BP or Oracle and have a few pts left over for a bystander or two. That's 19-20 pieces that can deal 1 dmg each. That would take at least 16 rounds for SBP to eliminate them all. Assuming no pushing, it would be 24 rounds. And with 2 Outwitters SBP would never get a chance to use any defensive powers and no HSS or charge/flurry. Its a losing battle for 318pt SBP. Add another 25 pts and there is no way SBP can lose. So which is better? a 318p figure that can't win in this scenario or a 342pt figure that can't lose (barring the worst dice luck in history)? I know neither situation would ever come up in an ideal world, but in this game we have to choose the lesser of two evils.

[drfate98]

I like Outwit and Fortitude just as they are. Any game mechanic is available to choose from when building a team by both players, so generally (I know a few people don't own Fortitude) both are just factors you have to prepare yourself to deal with when building a team. I prefer changing my team every week to changing the rules everytime someone does an analysis and decides this or that is overcoated or broken. Honestly, in the 5 or 6 venues I have played at regularly over the last few years, I don't remember anyone complaining about the way Fortitude OR Outwit worked. They may have complained about dealing with it at that moment when it stung them, but not about the concepts involved. Besides, Heroclix isn't a democracy, its a war. Prepare properly, play smart, or die.

[Slade Wilson]

This is a good reason to see fortitude modified to be an "* for every 100 points, add 25 points to the cost of Fortitude." type of prerequisite. I'd do the same with Repulsor Shield as well.

Wanna play Prime with Fortitude? You had better be in a 750+ point game then (assuming 10% feat cap). At that level, you can put a team together that can handle any of the Supermen w/Fortitude making the utility of the feat more limited.

Althought I agree with this, remeber fortitude was created because previously you would spend 175+ on a character that comprised most of your team. And thanks to outwit being broken that expensive character could be taken apart very very easily by lesser characters.

the solution to me is to tweak outwit to be a littel harder to use, such as requiring a roll like leadership or limiting the characters range. Or a new Fortitude like feat that cost a little less but only protects the characters damage reducing powers from being stripped from them.

Some thing like:

Impenertable

Choose a character

Prereq: Impervious, invulnerability or toughness.

The prerequisite powers of this character are immune to the effects of outwit.

cost 15 pts.

This also keeps outwit from being useless at the same time. A character could still outwit other powers of the chosen character,(HSS, RCE) but your not going to just take their defense away and strike them to nothingness. ;)

[vamroc]

This is a good reason to see fortitude modified to be an "* for every 100 points, add 25 points to the cost of Fortitude." type of prerequisite. I'd do the same with Repulsor Shield as well.

Wanna play Prime with Fortitude? You had better be in a 750+ point game then (assuming 10% feat cap). At that level, you can put a team together that can handle any of the Supermen w/Fortitude making the utility of the feat more limited.

Lifting the 10 percent rule is a better idea there are soooo many team I just can't build because of this proverbial "C-block". Here's how theme teams should work give us a set number like 4 doesn't matter if your playing 800 points. For 300 point matches in order to be theme just play two or more figures with same Team Ability or Keyword. A team of Black Bolt, Namor, Dr. Doom, and Greem Scar ALL HAVE THE RULER KEYWORD and comes 746 it's stupid that this isn't theme because I don't have eight figures. I'd love to play a Power Cosmic theme team of Thanos, Korvak, Stardust, and The Mighty Thor it's 926 see the way I think theme teams should work is soooooo much better than the current rules. It's even called a TEAM ABILITY if I've got x number of figures on my force with the same TEAM ABILITY or keyword it should never matter what number of points my team is. Go a head build an Illuminati theme team oh right YOU CAN'T Namor and Dr. Strange are 299 Reed and Black Bolt 266 Tony Stark and Proff. X 322 grand total 887 THEIR THE FREAKIN ILLUMINATI. There will never be enough figures to make an Illuminati theme team under the current rules so please NECO just change these LAME RULES.

[Daredevil15]

Yea fortitude is meant to give a tent pole team a chance. We have figs in this game that are meant to be one man armies. In any given case a well balanced team will destroy a one man army. Fortitude gives them a shot to win and balances things out more. Fortitude isn't close to broken, it's needed in a game where you can get outwit for 27 points. A 27 point figure should not be able to shut down a 317 point figure.

awesomely put

[Daredevil15]

and, its not just a high point figure i put it on, i've put it on my 94 pt wolverine. Basically I tend to play teams that have a "Main attacker" and then people who work well with him, like secondary attackers, an outwitter, a perplexer, what have you....my teams are usually built fairly evenly, i just have a strategy in mind, and 85-90% of the time, outwit destroys my team

[Rurouni KJS]

Yea fortitude is meant to give a tent pole team a chance. We have figs in this game that are meant to be one man armies. In any given case a well balanced team will destroy a one man army. Fortitude gives them a shot to win and balances things out more. Fortitude isn't close to broken, it's needed in a game where you can get outwit for 27 points. A 27 point figure should not be able to shut down a 317 point figure.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jarimy123 again."

Fortitude isn't anywhere NEAR broken because of the highlighted text above. No matter how much better E2 Supes is with Fortitude, he's still going to be taking 2-4 times more attack rolls than he gets to dish out, and he's only got the same 11-clicks-max dial as any other character in the game to endure that kind of punishment.

[Jarimy123]

Plus 25 points is a pretty big investment considering I can still get around your fortitude for 42 points - Black Panther rookie and Thwart. I mean there is a feat that is 10 less points than fortitude costs, that can get rid of fortitude. And seriously who doesn't pack thwart on somebody when they are playing in high point tourneys? If you are trying to win you will have it on the best thwarter in the game - JL Batman. You can out of the shadows to thwart, so you don't even need a taxi to get him into position to thwart.

[vamroc]

The cheapest figure with Outwit in the game is 27pts. Oracle and Black Panther. For a combined 54pts, you can make a 317pt figure pretty much not matter in a game. I played Thor Chariot and I had to run away from a shield team with 2, sometimes 3, outwitters on it because it made Thor pretty much powerless. Slapping a 25pt feat to counter that isn't the best solution, I agree with that, but its better than not having Fort.
Thor's Chariot can't use Fortitude because it has the Duo Attack symbol :disappointed:

[Jarimy123]

I just think the word broken gets thrown around too much. Warbound - broken. Edward Nigma - completely broken. Being able to remove the biggest element of the game - action tokens - is broken. I mean say it outloud "I'm going to move my 319 point earth-2 superman while carrying my 60 point edward nigma, and then I will give the token to nigma, I'll then roll a die and have a 1 in 6 chance to take a click of damage, then on my next turn I'll do it again and give superman the token and clear good ol ed, I'll then have ed outwit something of yours, and if I make a ranged attack with someone else I'll get an additional damage from ed, and if you try to attack him I'll mastermind the damage to a pog" That just sounds broken to me. 25 points to do something I could do if I just don't place my figure in a dumb spot so my opponent can't get LOS doesn't really scream broken to me.

[Slade Wilson]

I agree fortitiude is not so broken, its just that outwit is so powerful, that you need fortitude to stand a chance.

I once played a team that every figure had outwit and went up against an opponent who used a one man army with out fortitude. The battle lasted 2 rounds, and the winner was not the one man army.

[KillerSavage]

Outwitting outwit is always fun. Outwit happens fortitude happens. When you make a team you take these things into consideration. There is a counter strategy to every strategy. I don't have an E-2 Supes or Edward Nigma but that doesn't mean I can't try and have a strategy in case someone does. What is cheese other than the most popular strategy currently. People start to figure it out and it doesn't get used so often anymore. Just because you can't outwit something doesn't mean the game is over just means a change of strategy.

[MattMinus]

Feats, in general, are designed to break the rules and unbalance the game.

This doesn't make any sense. Feats are essentially collectible rules. Are they rules to break the rules? They don't break the rules anymore than Hypersonic breaks the rule that you can't take an action in the middle of another action. And why the hell would a game designer make an element specifically to unbalance his own game?


It's funny -- no one ever says "Fortitude belongs" on Green Arrow, Hulk, or any other lower point figure. The fact that people consistently scream "it belongs on E2 Superman" or other 250+ point figure just reinforces my point that there is something seriously wrong with it.



The reason that no one ever says that is because it would be ########. Your analysis is just about backwards in my opinion. Fortitude is a horrible bargain for lower point figures and only worth it on expensive tentpoles. Thats why you only hear people speak about it that way.

Is it really worth 25 points, increasing his value by 25%, to make GA immune to outwit? It doesn't seem that my victory will hinge on it, which is the only time I'd use it.

[Artarus]

or make outwit a power action and watch fortitude disappear from the landscape..

I think your problem isn't that Fortitude is imbalanced... it's that you don't think outwit is..

Fortitude BELONGS on the tentpole peices because they ARE tentpole pieces.. why should a 317 E2 Supes be torn apart by a swarm of 50 nothings, just because you have a couple of outwitters? If you make the decision to play a one piece army.. then you need to have some protection..

[tyroclix]

You can not put Fortitude on Sharpshooter or Duo. Pre-req is the fist symbol.

Unless they have Earthbound on their dial. But of course it wouldn't work until Earthbound appeared.

[tyroclix]

Feats, in general, are designed to break the rules and unbalance the game.

That's true of anything that doesn't follow the main rules.

BFC's, Special Objects, Map Rules, Special Powers, Colossal Figures, Giants, Transporters, Double-Based, Team Abilities, etc.

[Sensualninja]

Also Sharpshooter and Duo. ;)

duo's and sharpshooters dont qualify for Fortitude

[Sensualninja]

or make outwit a power action and watch fortitude disappear from the landscape..

I think your problem isn't that Fortitude is imbalanced... it's that you don't think outwit is..

Fortitude BELONGS on the tentpole peices because they ARE tentpole pieces.. why should a 317 E2 Supes be torn apart by a swarm of 50 nothings, just because you have a couple of outwitters? If you make the decision to play a one piece army.. then you need to have some protection..

Agree'd

I have been long standing Fan of the Idea that Figures should only be able to Outwit characters of Equal are lower point values.

[theflashisanascarfan]

Some thing like:

Impenertable

Choose a character

Prereq: Impervious, invulnerability or toughness.

The prerequisite powers of this character are immune to the effects of outwit.

cost 15 pts.

This also keeps outwit from being useless at the same time. A character could still outwit other powers of the chosen character,(HSS, RCE) but your not going to just take their defense away and strike them to nothingness. ;)

This is a terrific idea.

In reality, it IS just that you don't want your defensive powers to be eradicated. Why should Superman's Invulnerability be nullified by Lex Luthor? Oh, wait... :rolleyes: I guess that's sort of Lex's point.

So Slade's idea compensates for Fortitude being broken, while allowing Superman to conserve his body's innate toughness, while still allowing characters with Outwit to do their thing.

[Sensualninja]

This doesn't make any sense. Feats are essentially collectible rules. Are they rules to break the rules? They don't break the rules anymore than Hypersonic breaks the rule that you can't take an action in the middle of another action. And why the hell would a game designer make an element specifically to unbalance his own game?


The reason that no one ever says that is because it would be ########. Your analysis is just about backwards in my opinion. Fortitude is a horrible bargain for lower point figures and only worth it on expensive tentpoles. Thats why you only hear people speak about it that way.

Is it really worth 25 points, increasing his value by 25%, to make GA immune to outwit? It doesn't seem that my victory will hinge on it, which is the only time I'd use it.

Very Agreed


I do however Fort Iron Widow and Starter Thing.

[Sensualninja]

Perhaps then Outwit needs to be fixed?

And if you think about it, the only real issue is that DAMAGE REDUCTION is outwitable. I highly doubt people would scream the blessings of Fortitude so highly if their precious Impervious and Invulnerability were immune to outwit.




I Outwit Hypersonic Speed, Outwit, Prob, Perplex, Charge, and Running Shot just as much as defense powers.

[The7ofDiamonds]

Althought I agree with this, remeber fortitude was created because previously you would spend 175+ on a character that comprised most of your team. And thanks to outwit being broken that expensive character could be taken apart very very easily by lesser characters.

the solution to me is to tweak outwit to be a littel harder to use, such as requiring a roll like leadership or limiting the characters range. Or a new Fortitude like feat that cost a little less but only protects the characters damage reducing powers from being stripped from them.

Some thing like:

Impenertable

Choose a character

Prereq: Impervious, invulnerability or toughness.

The prerequisite powers of this character are immune to the effects of outwit.

cost 15 pts.

This also keeps outwit from being useless at the same time. A character could still outwit other powers of the chosen character,(HSS, RCE) but your not going to just take their defense away and strike them to nothingness. ;)

A terrific feat idea if I've ever heard one.... and hell, I was the one that made Takedown.

[Harpua]

The cheapest figure with Outwit in the game is 27pts.

Ooh...rock me, Amadeus.

[Jarimy123]

I guess you could put thwart on amadeus, but I'm not sure how great it would be. I guess if you TK'd or taxied him into position, then next turn thwarted and then used the outwit. But I think Black Panther is more affective. For 16 more points you get a bunch of stealth and a good team ability. Good call though on the pog.

[zero_cochrane]

For 25 points it makes a 100 point character better... and I think it's perfect for that. But for the same 25 points it makes a uber characters (E2 Superman) god-like.If a character is equal to 75%+ of the value of a team, it really should have as much effect as characters equalling 75% of a normal balanced team. That's almost never the case.

And so, a 25 point Fortitude is always better on expensive figures than it is on cheap ones. so yes, it is broken from a design point of view.Not necessarily so.

Of course, this doesn't solve the overall problem with all feats -- its still mathematically better to put it on expensive figures than it is to put it on small figures.I do not agree that this is necessarily a problem.

My understanding of pricing feats is that they should be costed to be appropriate in the case of their optimal use. That may mean that the feat is actually overcosted most of the time; those feats that are only a little overcosted when non-optimally used are widely considered powerful. Feats that are very overcosted when non-optimally used are considered non-powerful, as are feats that are so corner-case that optimal use is very rare.


Fortitude protects a character's powers from Outwit. In the case of a Thug (no powers), it is worth zero points because it offers no benefit. In the case of a 50-point character with two powers it is probably worth 5 points (some benefit, but only protecting a modest investment). For a 150-point character with a number of useful powers Fortitude is probably worth 15 points (significant benefit for a major investment). On a character worth over 200 points with many critical powers it is worth 25 points (major benefit for a single-basket investment).

So Fortitude is costed at 25 points. In many force builds this is not the most effective way to spend those points; a 27-point Black Panther can be far more effective (useful offensively and defensively, can affect different characters, can even take his own actions). But a player who chooses Fortitude will try to leverage that feat for maximum benefit, hopefully pushing the feat's value to his team as close to 25 points as possible.


All feats can be costed this way. Whether or not WizKids was successful in doing so when it comes to Feat X or Feat Y is another question entirely.


So to address your statement above:Of course, this doesn't solve the overall problem with all feats -- its still mathematically better to put it on expensive figures than it is to put it on small figures.Although it is mathematically better to place Fortitude on (some) expensive figures than it is to put it on cheaper figures, this is not a problem because even optimal use of Fortitude is not too good for the cost.

And the possibility of sub-optimal combinations of game elements is not a bad thing - it allows for strategy in force building. You shouldn't be able to throw together any random collection of game elements that add up to 300 ponts and have it be as pefectly effective as any other 300-point force. Optimal force building is a part of the skillset of a good player, as is winning with a deliberately sub-optimal force (that reflects a particular theme or simply an unusual strategy).


Okay, my girlfriend wants me to come to bed. Evening all!

[W.I.T]

I played a game on Thursday night. 2000 points. I decided to play some very high point figures in this game, and thusly ended up only having 12 figures on my team. I played 4 figures over 250 points, they were:

Superman Prime 318
DC Ares 275
Thanos 267
Doomsday 261

Normally, I wouldn't play a team like this, but I just got Doomsday and Ares in the last few weeks, so I decided what the heck.

I played 3 Fortitudes in this game (Ares, Spuerman and Doomsday) and it was a good thing I did. My buddy played a metric ton of Outwit, including the Superman Enemy TA with a few Wildcards. Had I not played the Fortitudes, I'd have gotten beaten like a redheaded step child.

Then there is the flip side of the coin. What if my buddy had played 0 Outwit? Then I'd have wasted the 75 points on Fortitude.

Fortitude is a gamble, and it's a hefty one at 25 points for a purely Defenseive card. I'm on the side of it not being broken. Of course I usually play 700-2000 point games, where Outwit is a big factor, and I usually play at least one 150+ point figure (in games over 1000 anyway), where protecting that figure is key.

[W.I.T]

Gotta love them double posts ;)

[Maraud]

Some thing like:

Impenertable

Choose a character

Prereq: Impervious, invulnerability or toughness.

The prerequisite powers of this character are immune to the effects of outwit.

cost 15 pts.

The problem with this is that figures with special Damage reducing powers would not be able to protect themselves from outwit like SBP, iron man.
It would need to be all defensive powers need to be immune from outwit.

[planetary]

Fortitude is not broken.It is the answer to the really broken outwit.

[The7ofDiamonds]

If a character is equal to 75%+ of the value of a team, it really should have as much effect as characters equalling 75% of a normal balanced team. That's almost never the case.

Not necessarily so.

I do not agree that this is necessarily a problem.

My understanding of pricing feats is that they should be costed to be appropriate in the case of their optimal use. That may mean that the feat is actually overcosted most of the time; those feats that are only a little overcosted when non-optimally used are widely considered powerful. Feats that are very overcosted when non-optimally used are considered non-powerful, as are feats that are so corner-case that optimal use is very rare.


Fortitude protects a character's powers from Outwit. In the case of a Thug (no powers), it is worth zero points because it offers no benefit. In the case of a 50-point character with two powers it is probably worth 5 points (some benefit, but only protecting a modest investment). For a 150-point character with a number of useful powers Fortitude is probably worth 15 points (significant benefit for a major investment). On a character worth over 200 points with many critical powers it is worth 25 points (major benefit for a single-basket investment).

So Fortitude is costed at 25 points. In many force builds this is not the most effective way to spend those points; a 27-point Black Panther can be far more effective (useful offensively and defensively, can affect different characters, can even take his own actions). But a player who chooses Fortitude will try to leverage that feat for maximum benefit, hopefully pushing the feat's value to his team as close to 25 points as possible.


All feats can be costed this way. Whether or not WizKids was successful in doing so when it comes to Feat X or Feat Y is another question entirely.


So to address your statement above:Although it is mathematically better to place Fortitude on (some) expensive figures than it is to put it on cheaper figures, this is not a problem because even optimal use of Fortitude is not too good for the cost.

And the possibility of sub-optimal combinations of game elements is not a bad thing - it allows for strategy in force building. You shouldn't be able to throw together any random collection of game elements that add up to 300 ponts and have it be as pefectly effective as any other 300-point force. Optimal force building is a part of the skillset of a good player, as is winning with a deliberately sub-optimal force (that reflects a particular theme or simply an unusual strategy).


Okay, my girlfriend wants me to come to bed. Evening all!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to zero_cochrane again.

Damn it the man has a way with words!

[The7ofDiamonds]

Fortitude is a gamble, and it's a hefty one at 25 points for a purely Defenseive card. I'm on the side of it not being broken. Of course I usually play 700-2000 point games, where Outwit is a big factor, and I usually play at least one 150+ point figure (in games over 1000 anyway), where protecting that figure is key.

I definitely see your point here, but the one thing I would argue is that Fortitude is a 100% defensive card. If someone outwits Zoom's Hypersonic... he just ends up stuck with 0 range and no move and attack... put fortitude on Zoom however, and I feel that your opponent will find Fortitude very offensive.

[zero_cochrane]

I think that's more a case of Outwit being used defensively. :p

Fortitude is a defensive card, or more properly, a reactive card. If your opponent doesn't even want to Outwit the character with Fortitude, then Fortitude isn't doing anything. This can happen when your opponent plays a force that doesn't have Outwit (due to thematic reasons or an alternative strategy), or chooses to use his Outwit on different characters (I'll Outwit your TK instead!), or just plain doesn't need to Outwit anything (relies on Psychic Blast, Pulse Wave, Armour Piercing, or other options to beat defences).

I know that I've played games where the 25 points I spent on Fortitude were utterly useless. I've never played a game where rookie Black Panther was utterly useless; at the very least, you could use him as a tie-up piece.

[delowen]

Fortitude is not broken.It is the answer to the really broken outwit.

Yup. Exactly. I agree completely.

That was actually one of my biggest disappointments with most feat cards - that they often seemed like a game design cop-out. Rather than actually fix problems in the rules and gameplay, like say the broken power Outwit, they'd instead sell us a collectible fix like Fortitude.

Fortitude isn't broken in the slightest and is unfortunately very, very necessary.

[Harkonnen13]

Since the topic is Fortitude I'll ask the (n00b) question I have about the feat rather than start a seperate thread. The prerequisite is the standard AV symbol, the fist. Can Fortitude also be given to Duo Attack figures?

[Hellboy]

or make outwit a power action and watch fortitude disappear from the landscape..

I think your problem isn't that Fortitude is imbalanced... it's that you don't think outwit is..

Fortitude BELONGS on the tentpole peices because they ARE tentpole pieces.. why should a 317 E2 Supes be torn apart by a swarm of 50 nothings, just because you have a couple of outwitters? If you make the decision to play a one piece army.. then you need to have some protection..

quoted above is the best suggestion to solve this problem I think.

I think there are two under~costed over~used powers in the game that simplify things way too much: Outwit and Stealth. If these two mechanics were addressed, I'd think the combat system would be pretty sound. I also wouldn't mind seeing a flanking rule, but that would be gravy.

I think that outwit is too powerful to allow it to be a free action. I think making it a power action balances it nicely and invites greater strategy into the game.

I think Stealth needs to be weakened so that its effects have a chance of being broken. Is it really fair that you can base a stealthed figure, but that basing figure still can't draw lines of fire to the stealther? Make stealth contingent on not be adjacent to opposing figures and you take the cheese out of it and it remains powerful, but not unbreakable.

I hope that there's someone at NECA who's patient enough to wade through these threads for suggestions like these. they are worth considering.

[Paradox Factor]

I think Stealth needs to be weakened so that its effects have a chance of being broken. Is it really fair that you can base a stealthed figure, but that basing figure still can't draw lines of fire to the stealther? Make stealth contingent on not be adjacent to opposing figures and you take the cheese out of it and it remains powerful, but not unbreakable.


Repping you for that. This is my number one most wanted rules change. Stealth, while diminished due to Superman Ally/Ultimates, Sharpshooter, & Trick Shot, is still one of the most powerful abilities in the game. And in my opinion, making it so you can't draw line of fire to an adjacent character with it for Perplex, PC, Outwit, and any other similar effects, is just to much of a bonus on top of what Stealth already had. It's also ver counter intuitive fore newer players, which is another reason I want to see it go.

[normalview]

Since the topic is Fortitude I'll ask the (n00b) question I have about the feat rather than start a seperate thread. The prerequisite is the standard AV symbol, the fist. Can Fortitude also be given to Duo Attack figures?

No. As you noted, the :a-fist: symbol is the prerequisite and the :a-duo: is not the same.

[Harkonnen13]

Got it, thanks.

[as_bat]

lets say for a second that we are talking about a comic book...

then i would accept that 514589073458907143857236458916981243986 moloids would be toasted if Superboy Prime went against them...

but we are talking about a game that must be balanced.

If this game would not have the "oh so powerfull and broken" outwit then we all would be playing only with supermans, hulks ans such figures instead with a bunch of moloids just cause its fun (and possible to win)

Low damage figures need outwit to make the combat possible.
To avoid this high cost figures need a high cost feat.
Its all about a gamble like a guy here said (I´m sorry I don´t remember who wrote that, but please know that I consider it a BRILLIANT concept). If the opponent did not put a single outwit in his team or if he uses to something else then you put 25 pts without a reason in your team.
If you are soo afraid of fortitude then you are going to put thwart to one of your outwit figs, but if you opponent didnt put fortitude to his tentpole then you screwed 15 (was 15?) pts.
How you build your force its up to you, and you have to take in consideration all this issues and decide what to do if they present in the game.

a lot of complaining about outwit being broken, a lot of complaining about fortitude...

neither outwit nor fortitude complaining are rules issues, its plain complaining.

just go and think of a way to avoid being outwitted or how to damage that fig with impervious instead of wasting so much energy in complaining.

I accept a complain when we have a ruling that contradicts everything else and that it has no way to be sustained by the rules, at least untill it has a line or two in the players guide so we have to shut up.

But this? I really see no point to it...

[W.I.T]

Repping you for that. This is my number one most wanted rules change. Stealth, while diminished due to Superman Ally/Ultimates, Sharpshooter, & Trick Shot, is still one of the most powerful abilities in the game. And in my opinion, making it so you can't draw line of fire to an adjacent character with it for Perplex, PC, Outwit, and any other similar effects, is just to much of a bonus on top of what Stealth already had. It's also ver counter intuitive fore newer players, which is another reason I want to see it go.

I know we are getting off topic here, but one of the 'fixes' a couple of my buddies came up with for Stealth (about 3 years ago) was that if a figure in Stealth attacked an opposing figure, that opposing figure and any figures adjacent to it could now draw a LOF to the Stealthed figure. In order to 'regain' Stealth against those figures, the Stealthed figure would have to move out of and then back into hindering terrain again. (Even if they only moved out of, and then back into the exact same square)

Simple and effective fix for Stealth. Then you really had to decide if you wanted to take that shot at the opposing character and 'expose' yourself to return fire.

[tyroclix]

I know we are getting off topic here, but one of the 'fixes' a couple of my buddies came up with for Stealth (about 3 years ago) was that if a figure in Stealth attacked an opposing figure, that opposing figure and any figures adjacent to it could now draw a LOF to the Stealthed figure. In order to 'regain' Stealth against those figures, the Stealthed figure would have to move out of and then back into hindering terrain again. (Even if they only moved out of, and then back into the exact same square)

Simple and effective fix for Stealth. Then you really had to decide if you wanted to take that shot at the opposing character and 'expose' yourself to return fire.

Speaking of sharing fixes, here is what we came up with for Stealth:
HSS, Charge, TK, Force Blast, Bright Lights BFC, Map Choice, Maneuver, Drag, Quake, Lunge, Capture Ability, Giant Ability, & Move & Attack.
Sometimes Disbanded works, too - but not always.

[Maraud]

Speaking of sharing fixes, here is what we came up with for Stealth:
HSS, Charge, TK, Force Blast, Bright Lights BFC, Map Choice, Maneuver, Drag, Quake, Lunge, Capture Ability, Giant Ability, & Move & Attack.
Sometimes Disbanded works, too - but not always.

this was funny as ever the powers are fine as is, there is a counter to every power out there. This is a strategy game, not a game of who can roll the highest. for almost every power there is a counter power/strategy.
If you can't figure out how to get around something then stop crying b/c u can't figure it out, get on the forums and ask. I bet you will find many different ways around these "broken" powers.

[The7ofDiamonds]

Speaking of sharing fixes, here is what we came up with for Stealth:
HSS, Charge, TK, Force Blast, Bright Lights BFC, Map Choice, Maneuver, Drag, Quake, Lunge, Capture Ability, Giant Ability, & Move & Attack.
Sometimes Disbanded works, too - but not always.

Energy Explosion, Pulse Wave, Trick Shot, Superman Ally TA, Ultimates TA, Proximity Mines, Krakoa the Living Island, Ahab, etc. etc. etc...... get the point? Stealth's fine... it's just the games that you play where you feel that stealth is the sole reason you lost where you feel it's so imbalanced. Trust me, I've had those games... we've all had those games.

[jak7890]

Well, there's more to the Stealth complaint than just saying its broken. The big beef is that its counter intuitive. Yes you can say that game mechanics aren't 100% analogous to life, but the argument is still valid that games are meant to simulate an altered reality while still adhering to certain mundane rules.

For example, if I hurt you badly enough you will pass out.

And I agree that Outwit is closer to broken than Fortitude, for all the reasons previously mentioned... repeatedly. I support a modified Impenetrable, a scaling Fortitude, and a power action Outwit.

[PsychoHippie]

Outwit has been a core mechanic of the game since day one. If it were "broken" then it would have killed the game. Or is that not how we define "broken" anymore? Let's keep in mind that outwit was around long before Fortitude.

Fortitude is a crutch used by players who aren't good enough to find other ways of dealing with outwit. No wait...that's just me.

Stealth: see Outwit above.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

I was reading the fortitude card and i saw it said on the recently reprinted card it said you couldn't outwit the character powers does this mean you can outwit the characters abilites such as indomitable or ?

Many good points here, but I want to add my two cents, and answer this question to the best of my ability. I posted something similar in another thread about Team Abilities.

Here is my two cents:

Current Wording of Fortitude:

Prerquisite: :a-fist:

Choose a character.

The character ignores other characters' Exploit Weakness. Outwit can't be used by other characters to counter the character's powers.

The keyword to answering this question is in the last word on the card: powers The definition of powers in HeroClix refers to any Standard, Named, or Special Power. These are the powers from the PAC or from individual character cards. None of these can be Outwitted / Countered when this Feat card is in play.

However, Combat Symbols such as Flight, Duo, Indomitable, etc. are not powers; they are Special Abilities. Hence, Fortitude does not defend against these Special Abilities from being Outwitted / Countered. Note: Some Special Abilities are Non-Optional, such as Giant Size or Colossal Size. These Special Abilities cannot be Outwitted / Countered or Cancelled.

On a side note: Power Cosmic / Quintessence is the same concept as Fortitude, as it only protects the character from getting his Powers countered. It doesn't stop an opposing figure from Outwitting / Countering it's Special Abilities.

Things to remember:

Powers: Any Standard, Named, or Special Power from the PAC or Character Cards. Different from Traits. Traits are Non-Optional and cannot be Outwitted or Countered.

Combat Symbols and / or Special Abilities granted by Combat Symbols: These are Swim, Duo, Sharpshooter to name a few.

[Paradox Factor]

Outwit has been a core mechanic of the game since day one. If it were "broken" then it would have killed the game. Or is that not how we define "broken" anymore? Let's keep in mind that outwit was around long before Fortitude.

Fortitude is a crutch used by players who aren't good enough to find other ways of dealing with outwit. No wait...that's just me.

Stealth: see Outwit above.

That's an absurd oversimplification. Rules change, even ones that were around from the beginning due to balancing issues, simplification, and yes, because they are broken. Want examples? Fliers ranging in adjacent, FCCF, NAAT, NTKATK, Perplex sticking around til the beginning of the next turn, the new TK rules, ect. All the above were related to core mechanics in the game, and all got changed. Who's to say that Outwit and Stealth shouldn't be also? It has been over 5 years since the game was released after all.

[jak7890]

Outwit has been a core mechanic of the game since day one. If it were "broken" then it would have killed the game. Or is that not how we define "broken" anymore? Let's keep in mind that outwit was around long before Fortitude.

Fortitude is a crutch used by players who aren't good enough to find other ways of dealing with outwit. No wait...that's just me.

Stealth: see Outwit above.

You've subscribed to a logical fallacy in assuming that just because, "this is the way it's always been," that this must be the best way of doing it.

Nobody has said that Outwit and/or Stealth is unbeatable, un-counter-able, or even unethical, as your rancor might suggest, merely that it could be helped by some fine tuning.

Back when I played in tournaments I did very well; I won them more often than not. I still think that attention could be paid to honing these powers.

[indigonegative]

My brother just put together an ubercheese 300 point team I'm struggling to beat: Crisis Darkseid with Fortitude plus Chief. Chief's Outsiders TA freezes Darkseid's battle stats so he can supe up his 12-range 5-damage Omega Effect attack with impunity. I can't Outwit Darkseid and I can't use my Spider-Slayers to hunt him down because he's EW immune. I'm not sure this proves that Fort is broken, but we're certainly looking at a team which becomes broken with it. I bought a Thwart card, tho, so I'll be trying that soon. Thoughts?

[Harpua]

My brother just put together an ubercheese 300 point team I'm struggling to beat: Crisis Darkseid with Fortitude plus Chief. Chief's Outsiders TA freezes Darkseid's battle stats so he can supe up his 12-range 5-damage Omega Effect attack with impunity. I can't Outwit Darkseid and I can't use my Spider-Slayers to hunt him down because he's EW immune. I'm not sure this proves that Fort is broken, but we're certainly looking at a team which becomes broken with it. I bought a Thwart card, tho, so I'll be trying that soon. Thoughts?

One thing I'll mention is that the Outsiders doesn't prevent the range from being halved.

[as_bat]

My brother just put together an ubercheese 300 point team I'm struggling to beat: Crisis Darkseid with Fortitude plus Chief. Chief's Outsiders TA freezes Darkseid's battle stats so he can supe up his 12-range 5-damage Omega Effect attack with impunity. I can't Outwit Darkseid and I can't use my Spider-Slayers to hunt him down because he's EW immune. I'm not sure this proves that Fort is broken, but we're certainly looking at a team which becomes broken with it. I bought a Thwart card, tho, so I'll be trying that soon. Thoughts?

Halve value of a combat value is a replacement not a modifier, so Outsiders is no good against this.

And get a meteorite man! Instead of a Thwart put a meteorite in the right hands, a little of perplex, maybe a Dawnstar to go after the chief and at the same time give +1 to attacks against Darkseid, and the rock head is toast.
Its going to be tough, but not imposible as you put it lol

[delowen]

Outwit has been a core mechanic of the game since day one. If it were "broken" then it would have killed the game. Or is that not how we define "broken" anymore? Let's keep in mind that outwit was around long before Fortitude.

Fortitude is a crutch used by players who aren't good enough to find other ways of dealing with outwit. No wait...that's just me.

Stealth: see Outwit above.

"would have killed the game"?

You don't really think that it's the rules that sell this game, do you? :laugh: It's the source material; it's always been the source material. People want their cool, highly detailed and prepainted little plastic minis of all their favorite comic book heroes and villains, and they want a game to play them in. It doesn't have to be the greatest game (and it isn't...). All it has to do is provide a halfway decent chance at a comic book-like battle. Broken Outwit or not, broken Stealth or not, Heroclix was always the only game in town if you want to battle it out with DC and Marvel minis. In spite of things like Outwit or Stealth. ;)

[as_bat]

All it has to do is provide a halfway decent chance at a comic book-like battle.

this is the whole key point.

you can´t have a halfway defent chance at a camic book like battle if you mix any character using halfway decent comic book accurancy.

this game is made so any fig could pull its weight in the battle field.

the concept is that we have different options to make a decent game, but if you go comic like then the game is finished.

lets say we do what you say.

I field Superman (or any other mega ultra superpower)...

Thats it, you loose.

Unless you also field Superman (or any other mega ultra superpower)...

Then what? we start doing class matches? "only street fighters" "only fliers" "only speedesters" "only martial artists"

And yeah, it would have killed the game, I know lots of guys who don´t read comics but think the game is great.

[mattsolo]

The only way to balance Fortitued is to make THWART A FREE ACTION. Outwit is a free action, Fortitued no action there why not?

[Glen Quagmire]

The only way to balance Fortitued is to make THWART A FREE ACTION. Outwit is a free action, Fortitued no action there why not?

Because Thwart is more far reaching than just outwitting the feat. :cool:

Give the character a power action. Place a thwart token on a target feat card assigned to a character that is 10 or fewer squares from the character and to which the character has a clear line of fire. The target feat is ignored until a character to which it is assigned is given a power action specifically to remove the thwart token.

So the figure with Fortitude has to bite the bullet and take an action at some point if he wants the feat back.

[PsychoHippie]

That's an absurd oversimplification. Rules change, even ones that were around from the beginning due to balancing issues, simplification, and yes, because they are broken. Want examples? Fliers ranging in adjacent, FCCF, NAAT, NTKATK, Perplex sticking around til the beginning of the next turn, the new TK rules, ect. All the above were related to core mechanics in the game, and all got changed. Who's to say that Outwit and Stealth shouldn't be also? It has been over 5 years since the game was released after all.
By the same token, who's to say that they should be changed? I say they shouldn't. You say they should. I see only one way to settle this disagreement: I challenge you to compete against me in Wipeout. Winner gets the rules the way they want. Loser gets nothing but the sour memory of bouncing off the Big Balls.

You've subscribed to a logical fallacy in assuming that just because, "this is the way it's always been," that this must be the best way of doing it.

Nobody has said that Outwit and/or Stealth is unbeatable, un-counter-able, or even unethical, as your rancor might suggest, merely that it could be helped by some fine tuning.

Back when I played in tournaments I did very well; I won them more often than not. I still think that attention could be paid to honing these powers.
Actually my rancor agrees with you. Which is why he's not getting fed this week. That and the fact that the trap door over his lair is stuck.

My brother just put together an ubercheese 300 point team I'm struggling to beat: Crisis Darkseid with Fortitude plus Chief. Chief's Outsiders TA freezes Darkseid's battle stats so he can supe up his 12-range 5-damage Omega Effect attack with impunity. I can't Outwit Darkseid and I can't use my Spider-Slayers to hunt him down because he's EW immune. I'm not sure this proves that Fort is broken, but we're certainly looking at a team which becomes broken with it. I bought a Thwart card, tho, so I'll be trying that soon. Thoughts?

Base Darkseid. Base him and he can't make ranged attacks. No range=no Omega effect. He'll have to beat you with his bare hands or waste an action phasing away. It'll make your job a little bit easier...Darkseid is no joke even in close combat.

Alternatively, try Psychic Blast, especially combined with Running Shot.