Soaring and TK question

[Thorgrin]

I apologize if someone has already answered this or not, but....

Let's say you have a Magneto that is in soaring mode. Adjacent to him is a Vision that is also soaring. Could Magneto TK vision to the ground as long as he had LOS? Would Vision then be in a "hovering" mode?

For example, let's say you have the original IC marvel map. Using the inside map and Magneto/Vision sets up on the "outside". Both go to soaring on the first turn. Both pass and then next turn Magneto (which has los to at least the first few squares inside the building) TKs vision inside. Since you can't soar inside buildings, does that figure immediately go into hovering without using their action?

Also, TK states that you can place someone in a destination square, but doesn't stipulate if they stay in their original mode (soaring or hovering).

Any idea?

[Mr. Pilkington]

Well, I can definitely answer the flight-mode part. Only flying characters making a movement action can change flight mode. You cannot change it via taxi-ing with another flyer or TKing. So if you TK a flyer in hovering mode, when they are placed they will still be in hovering mode. Looking at the FAQ, you can use a soaring TKer to TK an adjacent soaring figure and they would still be in soaring mode.

However, in your example you mention an inside map. Flyers cannot soar on inside maps period (even in the parts that are outside). So the issue of trying to move a soaring figure inside is moot.

[Cabbage]

AHAHAHAHA Mr Pilkington used the word moot

(Dunno why I find that funny, but I do)

[Thorgrin]

I'm going to have to disagree there. First off, no where in the rule book does it state that the only the flying character can change a flight mode. It says they may, but does not give exclusive rights to said figure.

For example, outwit. A person on the opposite side may outwit a soaring character to make it a hovering character. So theoretically, here's a situation. Character is soaring near the entrance of the building. He is outwitted into hovering, another character (maybe blue beetle, weather wizard or whoever) force blasts said character into the building. Other character takes hit turn as normal (assume he is base to base with another figure and could not break away). Next turn, the other person decides to outwit something else, does the original soaring figure become KO because it's an invalid situation? Or was did he change the status of the flight mode and now the character would have to spend another movement point if they wanted to go back into soaring?

Thus my original question. TK says to a destination square and doesn't mention anything about flight modes.

I understand your position, but would like to know if there are any more clarifications somewhere else...?

Originally posted by Mr. Pilkington
Well, I can definitely answer the flight-mode part. Only flying characters making a movement action can change flight mode. You cannot change it via taxi-ing with another flyer or TKing. So if you TK a flyer in hovering mode, when they are placed they will still be in hovering mode. Looking at the FAQ, you can use a soaring TKer to TK an adjacent soaring figure and they would still be in soaring mode.

However, in your example you mention an inside map. Flyers cannot soar on inside maps period (even in the parts that are outside). So the issue of trying to move a soaring figure inside is moot.

[lavinah]

Ok, I'll jump on this train:

Here's the situation, on top of a building:


XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXJXXX
XXTXXX
XXXXXX

J = Juggernaut
T = TK'er

Can I TK Juggernaut off the building? This is vague, because I don't have line of sight to the square on the ground - however, I have an unobstructed line of sight 10 squares - in the air. Wouldn't Juggernaut get TK'ed, fall to the ground and take damage?

As per the going question, it was ruled by two seperate judges that I've had that TK *cannot* change flight mode. Change elevation, yes. Flight mode, no.

Not saying that's right.

-lavinah

[Tsannik]

Looking through the rules and FAQ:
A flying character can change flight modes when moving. Changing flight modes adds 1 square to the movement cost. Count this cost when you move the flight indicator.

No where does it specifically state that a TK move can or cannot change the flight mode on a figure being TKed.

I believe this was discussed on the Judges forum. I think it was ruled that the only way a figure could have his flight mode changed was for that figure to be assigned a Move Action.


Your example seems to indicate that this is on an Indoor map?
If so, Soaring is not allowed on an Indoor map.

If on an Outdoor map, everything would happen as you've described it... up until then next turn part.... the figure would automatically be Soaring again.

[Tsannik]

Can I TK Juggernaut off the building? This is vague, because I don't have line of sight to the square on the ground - however, I have an unobstructed line of sight 10 squares - in the air. Wouldn't Juggernaut get TK'ed, fall to the ground and take damage?

You'd have to have Line of Fire to the square you would be placing Juggernaut in. There aren't many way that you can cause damage to your own figures.....

[Xanth]

First, a soarer who is Outwitted is only treated AS IF hovering until the end of the turn. The character is not really hovering, the flight indicator is not moved, and when the turn is over "bounces" back up into soaring. Your example of a soarer Outwitted and shoved into a building is invalid since, as Mr. P correctly pointed out, a fig cannot soar on an indoor map, period. You cannot enter a building unless you are using an indoor map.

Changing flight mode requires a movement action on the part of the flyer as stated in the rules - "A flying character can change flight modes when moving". This is the only section that talks about changing flight levels and states it is done while moving. Since it doesn't say other characters can do it they can't. Chapeau has clarified on the WK site that you can't use TK to change the flight level of a flyer and there is nothing in the rules to say you can either.

[Xanth]

You cannot use TK to drop a character from a height, nor can you use it to smash someone into a wall for damage.

[Mr. Pilkington]

[editted due to redundancy]

Thanks to the additional judges who chimed in. I was working on a response and got side-tracked by my job. :D

[Thorgrin]

I am using the original IC map as my basis of debate. The one where you have approx 70% of the map indoors with an outdoors section strip on the other side.

Now, to your point that outwit treats as if that figure is hovering until the end of the outwitters turn. Why is my example of a soarer outwitted and shoved into a building invalid? The map I'm talking about has both an indoors and outdoors (as far we can tell). There are also other maps that don't have stairs (the universal sign of elevated terrain), but does have an "inside" to them. but they do have an opening to them (prime example would be the map that has a building on one side and a monument in front of that (a guy on a horse, I think). It's a building that has an inside). There are also other buildings around in general that you can "create" a hole into (say juggernaut busts down a wall) and then you can force blast someone into it. There are more than enough ways you can get someone inside. Since, for all intents and purposes, an outwitter can essentially make someone a hoverer, then why can't I force blast a figure inside the building?

Originally posted by Xanth
First, a soarer who is Outwitted is only treated AS IF hovering until the end of the turn. The character is not really hovering, the flight indicator is not moved, and when the turn is over "bounces" back up into soaring. Your example of a soarer Outwitted and shoved into a building is invalid since, as Mr. P correctly pointed out, a fig cannot soar on an indoor map, period. You cannot enter a building unless you are using an indoor map.

Changing flight mode requires a movement action on the part of the flyer as stated in the rules - "A flying character can change flight modes when moving". This is the only section that talks about changing flight levels and states it is done while moving. Since it doesn't say other characters can do it they can't. Chapeau has clarified on the WK site that you can't use TK to change the flight level of a flyer and there is nothing in the rules to say you can either.

[Thorgrin]

No, that's fine. However, there are some outdoor maps that do have building that have an interior to them. As far as I've been told, if a building has stairs, then it is elevated terrain. If not, then you can go inside and be sheltered. Well that is until someone comes through the entrance or blasts one on their own.

As far as the sounding harsh part, it's no biggie. I'm just trying to figure it out is all. That and I'm really, really trying to justify soaring as a viable power because otherwise, it's pretty lame, though now I'm trying to be creative and see what can be done to make it worthwhile.

Originally posted by Mr. Pilkington
You are missing the point. There is no such thing as "soaring in front of the enterance to a building". There is NO soaring on inside maps. Even spaces that appear to be "outside" are treated as "inside". You cannot soar on an inside map. Period. End of story. No soaring.

As for no mention of TK not being allowed to change flight mode, it does not state that it can change the flight mode. The only rule section that states anything about changing flight mode is movement for the flyer itself. I know I have seen a ruling specifically addressing the TKing of a flyer, but I'm still trying to find it.

My apologies if this comes off sounding harsh. I really don't mean for it to... work is stressful today and it is influencing my posts. The main point is that you cannot soar on an inside map. So you can never have the paradox of a soaring character being inside a building and the question of how to deal with it.

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
I am using the original IC map as my basis of debate. The one where you have approx 70% of the map indoors with an outdoors section strip on the other side.

Now, to your point that outwit treats as if that figure is hovering until the end of the outwitters turn. Why is my example of a soarer outwitted and shoved into a building invalid? The map I'm talking about has both an indoors and outdoors (as far we can tell). There are also other maps that don't have stairs (the universal sign of elevated terrain), but does have an "inside" to them. but they do have an opening to them (prime example would be the map that has a building on one side and a monument in front of that (a guy on a horse, I think). It's a building that has an inside). There are also other buildings around in general that you can "create" a hole into (say juggernaut busts down a wall) and then you can force blast someone into it. There are more than enough ways you can get someone inside. Since, for all intents and purposes, an outwitter can essentially make someone a hoverer, then why can't I force blast a figure inside the building?



If the map is an Indoor Map (like the one you are talking about) the ENTIRE map is considered Indoors, even if it shows an Outdoors part. Let me repeat... the ENTIRE map is considered to be Indoors. It was ruled that way by either Magistar or Chapeau.

[Tsannik]

This is where the problem lies....

There are only two kinds of maps: Indoor and Outdoor.


Even though most of the Indoor maps look slike they have Outdoor areas, they do not... the whole map is treated as being Indoors.

Indoor maps cannot have Elevated terrain.

All elevations are grounded on an Indoor map.
There is no Soaring on an ndoor map.

[Mr. Pilkington]

Okay, the main thing you need to accept (I'm not saying understand, just accept) is that inside maps are considered all inside terrain. You cannot soar on an inside map, regardless of whether or not the spaces appear to be outside. It doesn't make logical sense (from the indoor adventure pack you get a map of a home, including back yard with a pool) but to simplify rules you cannot soar at all on an indoor map.

So the "outside" area of the mall on the main Marvel map, the "courtyard" areas on the main DC map and the Marvel Permier edition map and the "front/back yard" areas on the indoor adventure pack map are really considered indoors for the purpose of soaring. Again, it doesn't make logical sense, but it is in place to simplify the rules.

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
No, that's fine. However, there are some outdoor maps that do have building that have an interior to them.

Which outdoors map have buildings with interiors? The Mansion? That is an INDOOR map. All of it. Even the pool. And the driveway. Indoors. It is considered indoors for gameplay reasons.

[Thorgrin]

Ok, ok, I got it. an indoors map is considered to be all indoors.

As far as outdoors, there's a map(s) that have a big house in the middle, so it appears that it could be a mix, but I'm taking it that it is considered to be an indoors map. Probably the other one I'm thinking of as well that has a house that takes up like 15% of the map on side, has an "alley" in the back (for the starting area), a small building and a monument in the front of that. It every much appears to be an outside map, but that is my mistake I guess.

*shrug*

[Tsannik]

Cool...


I thought Funky was going to just totally go ballistic there for a moment....

He is giving you good info, though...


Even though he says there are 10 kinds of people the understand binary, but only lists two..lol?!! What's up with that?

:P (I'm so very kidding, I get the '10 kinds' joke)

[Mr. Pilkington]

Do the maps in question show the interior of any buildings? If so then they are indoor maps. I know they marked the adventure pack maps as indoor and outdoor (so the map with the swimming pool should say so in one of the corners) unless they had multiple print runs of the maps for the packs.

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Tsannik
Cool...


I thought Funky was going to just totally go ballistic there for a moment....

Nahhh... I had a Coke and a smile. I'm better now. ;)

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
Ok, ok, I got it. an indoors map is considered to be all indoors.

As far as outdoors, there's a map(s) that have a big house in the middle, so it appears that it could be a mix, but I'm taking it that it is considered to be an indoors map. Probably the other one I'm thinking of as well that has a house that takes up like 15% of the map on side, has an "alley" in the back (for the starting area), a small building and a monument in the front of that. It every much appears to be an outside map, but that is my mistake I guess.

*shrug*

That map is an Outdoor map. Pilk has a great point... if there is an inside to a building, then it is an Indoors map. If it just shows a roof, then it is an Outdoors map.

[Xanth]

The confusing thing is the rule book states that some maps may combine indoors and outdoors terrain but the FAQ states all of a map is either indoors or outdoors.

[Mr. Pilkington]

Well, we'll just try not to look at that part of the rulebook. ;)

[Styrix]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world...

Those who get binary and those who don't.Mwahahahahahaahahahah! Tears, man, TEARS!

[mockingbyrd]

Xanth, is there really any reason why with TK you can't just drop the figure on its head? Yes, i know you have to have LOS to the target square, but that doesn't mean i can't deliver said figure 40 feet above the target square. (outside of the fact that this might make TK more powerfull than the creators intended and unbalance the game).

[Mr. Pilkington]

The reason is that the rules say that TK cannot be used to push a character into a wall or off of a building. You can TK a figure onto or off of a building, but you must have LOF to the target square and you drop them off all gentle-like. Wouldn't wanna hurt their little feet. :)

Seriously, I believe it was a balance issue. Knockback is based on damage dealt, making it harder to hit someone into a wall unless they start adjacent to it. The range of 10 on TK would mean that you could almost always arrange to push someone into a wall or off of a building. TK already has an attack mode, namely using objects.

[Thorgrin]

sorry for all the commotion. I didn't see the FAQ mention about the maps either. I think we're going to table rule it for the future one way or another. Before you say anything, we're combining maps to make a bigger battlefield so that people can set things up or for scenarios so that we can play fun things. This is not for tournaments or anything of the sort. I think we're planning a Dr. Doom castle/prisoner scenario that someone suggested in another forum, thus the question I had. :)

Thanks for the input judges/moderators. It was a big help as well. Darn rule book, messing everything up. lol.

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Styrix
There are 10 kinds of people in the world...

Those who get binary and those who don't.
Mwahahahahahaahahahah! Tears, man, TEARS!

I love this sig line too! That's why I stol... er, used it. Yeah, that's it. It cracks me up each time I think about it. :D