Second Dial Designer Jam #6: Wolfsbane

[saturnflight]

If you haven't read this thread (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260640) regarding the Second Dial Project's need to restructure, we're looking at different methods for moving through the dial-making process. One option raised was that dials could be posted here in their own threads, and that people would then discuss, rehash, critique, praise, whatever the dials that were submitted. After a few days, we'd look at the comments, add our own thoughts into the consideration, and choose the top 3 to go on to the Realms' main voting.

The plan is to have these threads open for about 5 days, and then go back to the designers for final drafts (hopefully the designers are watching these discussions). As we're just trying this out, I'm going to leave this go as long as there's active discussion.

Oh, and these will be presented anonymously, so try to keep them that way. Feel free to overhaul a dial if you think you can do it... better, shall we say?

Use the dial ID to refer to dials (ex. WB-E12 "Lonely Werewolf Girl"). If you're a designer, and your dial has been critiqued to the point that you feel you need to update it so people give it a shot, feel free to PM a new dial to me, and I'll post it. These aren't considered the actual submission, however, and should be viewed as merely anonymous suggestions on how to correct a dial from the dial maker themself.

As far as where the previous dials regarding Captain America and Spider-Man are, we've got a much more limited feedback on the Cap and Spidey dials from the Council than I'd hoped, but still enough to go off. I'm surprised a poll hasn't surfaced yet, and might contact the guy who's supposed to, though I know he's been busy.

Wolfsbane Rookie

ic028 R Wolfsbane
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst6614187152881527715166141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R1 "Big 3")
Team: X-men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6713089153881526714267131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R2 "Here n' There")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal671411091629916257131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOAttack - Wolf Form: Wolfsbane can use the Move and Attack ability, but only suffers a -1 modifier to her attack value when using this ability.

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R3 "Turn It Up to 11")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7713110111528101437913369133KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R4 "Go Time")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal89162781516714156131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R5 "From the Shadows")
Team: Xmen
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7916289162881517815167141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R6 "Hoppin' Mad")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal88161791717816167152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R7 "Dodgy")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6613178161781616715267152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R8 "New Moon")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6714188162781517713167131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

Wolfsbane Experienced

ic029 E Wolfsbane
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst671419815289152781527714166121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E1 "New Tricks")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6714189162791527814177141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E2 "Quake")
Team: X-men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal881529915210814181014179120KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E3 "Mobility")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal891721010163991528814278132KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E4 "Still Activating"
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal661318816178161781616715267152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E5 "Transformer")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal8917179171781616815167141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKODamage - Transformation: Wolfsbane can use perplex, but may only target herself.

#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E6 "Relentless")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal9914110101519111518916369143KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E7 "Slow Hop")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal8916278151671415613146121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E8 "Flurrious")
Team: X men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7916279162791616815168151KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

Wolfsbane Veteran

ic030 V Wolfsbane
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst6714110101529915288152771516614166111KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V1 "Neopolitan")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal81017279162681515714146131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V2 "Sniffer")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal89171710171791616815167141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKODamage - Wolf Senses: Friendly characters that share a common keyword with Wolfsbane can ignore the effects of stealth to any opposing character within 10 squares of Wolfsbane.

#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V3 "Tracker")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal661318916178161781616715267152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKODamage - Tracking Senses: Wolfsbane and adjacent friendly figures ignore the effects of hindering terrain when drawing line of sight to enemy figures within 10 squares of Wolfsbane.

#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V4 "Feral")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal10101628915278151891416814167131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOSpeed - Feral Hunt: Wolfsbane may use Charge. Wolfsbane automatically breaks away and ignores characters for movement.

#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V5 "Protector")
Team: X-men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal981628915381014110915210814189142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V6 "Weakness")
Team: X men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal89172710162791616815168151KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO[/QUOTE]

#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V7 "Hidden in the Middle")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal891727916278151681516714157131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V8 "Nonstop")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal1091721091721091729816288162KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

[anonym0use]

This one one of the figures I was looking forward to a re-dial the most.:)

Wolfsbane Rookie



#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R1 "Big 3")
Team: X-men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6713089153881526714267131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO



:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
Something's wrong here. This dial has 3 clicks of B/C/f, with AV's of 8,7,7. The original dial has 3 clicks of B/C/f, with AV's of 8,7,7. Despite the modest number changes, I can't see how dropping opening defense and damage translates to 2 clicks of L/C, CR, & SS. I'm not even going to mention the 3 damage.

Take a look at this:

ic028 R Wolfsbane
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst6614187152881527715166141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

The dial submitted feels like Wolfsbane, but a higher cost of the character (33-35 points). So what needs to happen here, is likely the loss of at least one click (possibly two) or a bunch of the powers need to go (starting with Super Senses). Some of the other dials used Shape Change, and that's a fine, less costly substitution for SS. Rework those numbers, and I'll rate it higher.


#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R2 "Here n' There")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal671411091629916257131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOAttack - Wolf Form: Wolfsbane can use the Move and Attack ability, but only suffers a -1 modifier to her attack value when using this ability.



:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
Love the Shapechange
Love the Stealth.
Love the CR.
Not fond of the SP. This would be a fine dial without the SP. I might even go for the SP, if the speed on the figure were reduced. I just can't bring myself to green flag a full move 9 AV, 2 damage figure for 28 points, it seems ripe for abuse (perplex up that damage, play Communication Breakdown, and you're looking at a 10 move, 9av 5 damage beast).


#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R3 "Turn It Up to 11")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7713110111528101437913369133KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
I guess I don't recall the crazy feral version of Wolfsbane. Battlefury has to go. Rahne was always getting taxi'd by friends in Wolf Form. Likewise - 3 damage? 11 AV? This is a rookie right????


#028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R4 "Go Time")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal89162781516714156131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

I like that we have versions without an activation click. Granted, the activation click has strategic possibility on an X-men figure, but options are always nice. My only problem is the numbers are too high. Lower all the opening combat values by 1, and I'll give it another :d-indomitable:


#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R5 "From the Shadows")
Team: Xmen
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7916289162881517815167141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
I'm just not a fan of all the 9 avs on the rookie. This dial also feels a little too long lived for me. I feel like for the points I've got one too many clicks of Charge, and one too many clicks of life.


#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R6 "Hoppin' Mad")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal88161791717816167152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
While I didn't like BF before, I really don't like it on the opening click. I'd actually be a big fan of a Wolfsbane with L/C on her opening click so she can POUNCE and activate same turn!

And this is a rookie. No way does she have B/C/F and Flurry with a 9AV. Hello Munchkin. Yes, Talia has it for 20 points, but Talia's raised by the league of Assassins. Rahne was raised by sane people. EW doesn't feel right either.


#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R7 "Dodgy")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6613178161781616715267152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
If this didn't have Battle Fury it would be my favorite R dials. Too much L/C though, I'd only have it on the 2nd click. Defense is too high across the board, and there's too much Super Senses (one click less) for a 28 point figure.


#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R8 "New Moon")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6714188162781517713167131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO



:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
Interesting, but not there for me. Again, Battle Fury kills my interest. I can see how she could have Battle Fury on ONE click, but I really don't think it fits the flavor of the character - at least not the R "New Mutants" Version. E & V are open to interpreation I suppose.

[normalview]

Just a note before we start: I am a HUGE New Mutants fan. As such, I'll probably be more critical of these than most of the other dials so far. Nothing personal, just the fanboy in me ;)

Also, before you all get up in arms about my comparisons to the original dial and how the game has obviously changed over the years... yeah, I get that. But you still have to start somewhere with your comparisions. And even if you do believe that power creep has been really bad, 28 points still isn't very much to work with. Take a quick look a E Mockingbird as a (almost) 28 point figure: her biggest claim to fame is the high DV when combined with CR. No move and attack powers, no through the roof AV or damage (except when combined with CCE which is pretty equivalent to BCF), and certainly no damage reduction. Still one of the most efficient characters ever, but even Mockingbird has her limits. Woflsbane should, too.

Rookie

WB-R1 "Big 3" - So, basically we've got everything that made Wolfsbane worth her 28 points before (3 clicks of BCF and 5 clicks of sweet X-Men battery action) AND a bunch more stuff. Nope. Sorry. :d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R2 "Here n' There" - The wording on the SP could use some tweaking (get rid of 'suffers' and say something instead like 'but modify her attack value by -1 instead of -2.') Otherwise a fine rookie representation of Ms. Sinclair. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

WB-R3 "Turn It Up to 11" - No way should Rahne (especially in Rookie form) ever get a natural 11 AV. Plus add on the fact that 3 clicks of Toughness, a click of Charge, and lots of 3 damage are definitely not worth only 28 points. Turn it down to a 3 or 4, please, 'cause Wolfsbane is a member of the New Mutants, not Spinal Tap. :d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R4 "Go Time" - This is more like it. Nothing too fancy, but still appropriate. The only thing I am concerned about is that we still have essentially what made the old version worth her cost (3 clicks BFC and X-Men battery)... yeah, this dial is also only 4 clicks deep, but does that make up for the extra stuff? I honestly don't know. The more I look at it, the more I think this might be a tad too good, but not by much. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

WB-R5 "From the Shadows" - I like the Stealth and the Super Senses, but I think 2 clicks of Charge on top of everything else probably pushes it over 28 points. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R6 "Hoppin' Mad" - I have the same concerns here as I do with "Go Time", but even more so. Flurry and BCF has waaaaaaay too much nasty synergy for a mere 28 points. Sure, Alpha Talia has it for only 20 points, but that is pretty much all she does (and I think most people would agree that she is still a little too good even with that). This version of Rahne has more tricks than Talia, including an awesome TA, but doesn't really cost that much more. I'd definitely trim off some of those powers. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R7 "Dodgy" - So we lose on click of BCF and gain all that other stuff? Nope. I don't buy it. :d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R8 "New Moon" - Of all the 'let's slightly tweak the old dial by just adding some extra powers' this one is the most believable since the Battle Fury is (theoretically) lowering the cost just a tad making room for the Stealth. Still, this is a very big depature from the original either (just some Stealth and Battle Fury added to the mix)... I'd much rather see a completely new interpretation like "Go Time" or "Here n' There". Just doesn't do enough for me. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

[normalview]

Not fond of the SP. This would be a fine dial without the SP. I might even go for the SP, if the speed on the figure were reduced. I just can't bring myself to green flag a full move 9 AV, 2 damage figure for 28 points, it seems ripe for abuse (perplex up that damage, play Communication Breakdown, and you're looking at a 10 move, 9av 5 damage beast).

I just want to comment on this one here. First, the SP does specify that there is still a penalty (-1 instead of -2, sure, but still a penatly). So all things being equal, you're looking at an 8 AV at best. Second, your comment about Perplex could be applied to any cheap Transporter (Lockjaw anyone?)... and that would be a lot of resources (as least 3 normal Perplexes or a couple Super-Perplexers) to pull off that one trick. Finally, whomever is playing Wolfsbane could only use Communication Breakdown once per tournament. That doesn't sound like a terribly sound strategy to me ;).

Plus, if you are really afraid of that SP, you can Outwit it or simply place a character adjacent to her (it is still the Move and Attack ability, remember?). In other words, I don't think there is much potential for abuse here.

Just wanted to put that out there since the rest of our comments were very similar.

[anonym0use]

Fair points NV - I guess the SPeed is what's killing it for me. If she were an 8, maybe even started with a 9, I might favor it more... likewise, with Stealth she's at an 18 Defense up close...

*shrug*

It is a good dial in terms of powers though. I think the numbers leave me cold.

[anonym0use]

As an aside, for some reason I can't find the dial generator in the units section. Did we lose it, or is it because I have restricted access to the site while I am at work?

[normalview]

Experienced

WB-E1 "New Tricks" - My only real problem with the dial (besides a general distaste for that much Battle Fury on sweet little Rahne) is that it is virtually identical to the WB-R8 "New Moon". I know the price only went up 4 points, but a little more variety would have been nice. Maybe I am wrong, maybe those two dials were done by two completely different people and the similarities are a coincidence. Probably not, though. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E2 "Quake" - Not bad. I like the use of Quake instead of Flurry to attack multiple opponents... I am just not sure that Wolfsbane should be able to hit quite that many, though (8 if surrounded). I also don't know why we need CCE with 0 damage. Just give her a straight 1 or 2 damage value and have done with it. Tweak it a bit, but it is looking to be a good start. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

WB-E3 "Mobility" - Another pretty good one. The opending DV might be a little too high, but overall not too shabby. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

WB-E4 "Still Activating" - Like so many of the Rookies, this dial is essentially the IC version with a lot of extra stuff thrown on top. And like before, I'll have to give it the thumbs down. :d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E5 "Transformer" - I don't really get the SP (why would Rahne Perlex herself? If the Perplex actually stems from her transformation as the name of the SP implies, shouldn't it confuse/frighten/Perplex her opponents?). Also, there is no way shaving off one click buys you all those extra powers. :d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E6 "Relentless" - I'm okay with a bit higher AV and damage on the E since, by the keywords, this was her time on X-Factor and she was more feral and animalistic... but I still can't condone an 11 AV and there is no way 32 points buys you that much Charge and damage reduction on top of everything else. Tone it down, a lot, and we'll see. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E7 "Slow Hop" - This is a dial I can get behind. I think the AV falls a little too fast, and I have no idea why she'd have only a 4 Speed with L/C, but the overall dial itself is a good start. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

WB-E8 "Flurrious" - Well, I still don't like the Flurry/BCF combo, but at least it is buried deep enough that there is a real chance it won't ever see the light of day in most games. Beyond that, the dial still seems a little too colorful for a mere 32 points, but the Flurry/BCF is my main problem. Fix that, then we will see. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

[Maniac_nmt]

Regarding the 11 attack value on the rookie, I don't even see a Veteran Wolfsbane sporting an 11. She's not that good. Multiple 9s on a vet, but even a 10 is to much for a vet Wolfsbane.

[anonym0use]

As an experiment, I went to a dial generator and made this for 28 points:

ic028 R Wolfsbane
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst6615188141781427813177130KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

So it IS possible to have a fun, playable dial for 28 points.

Then I went and reverse engineered most of the other dials (sans transporter attack) that were submitted to see how close they were to their point cost.

Here's how they add up.


(WB-R1 "Big 3") = 41 points.
(WB-R3 "Turn It Up to 11") = 44 points.
(WB-R4 "Go Time") = 27 points! 1 point UNDER BUDGET!!!
(WB-R5 "From the Shadows") 36 points. Drop the last click, and both clicks of charge and it comes in at 28.
(WB-R6 "Hoppin' Mad") 35 points. Cut off the last click and it's 28.
(WB-R7 "Dodgy") 42 points. Drop the last click, lose ALL the L/C and it's 29 points.
(WB-R8 "New Moon") 28 points on the nose. (Note, you could drop all the BF and add Shape Change on 4/5 clicks and still be at 28 points):knockedou

It's plain to see who is using point calculators when designing dials. In light of this, without corrections, it's easy to see which ones I'll probably be voting for.

[normalview]

Veteran

WB-V1 "Neopolitan" - Again with the 4 speed value? Eh, that aside, not bad. I don't really understand what is with that last click of Battle Fury, but this dial does show potential. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V2 "Sniffer" - With the SP, it would have probably just been easier to say 'Excalibur' instead of 'share a common keyword' ;) I do like the idea of the SP, too, though I think the 10 range might be a bit much (8 perhaps?). However, there is no way you will ever convince me that this dial is only 39 points. I'd be happy to pay 39 points just for the TA, speed powers, and the SP alone! :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal: (and the one :d-indomitable: is only because I like the SP).

WB-V3 "Tracker" - While I liked the SP for "Sniffer", this one is too much. Any friendly can use it and not only does it help get around Stealth, it defeats the normal +1 DV hindering terrain bonus. Too much, man, too much. The rest of the powers don't seem too far off, though, so fix the SP and try again. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V4 "Feral" - You are aware that the dial is for 39 points, right? Three clicks of super-Charge, 3 clicks of damage reduction, and lots of other powers would seem to be closer to 50 than, say, 40 points to me. :d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V5 "Protector" - Don't really like how this dial is all over the place and I flat out don't get why she has Defend. Did you mean to code CR and accidentally used Defend? Rework the dial a tad so it flows a bit more logically and we'll see. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V6 "Weakness" - That is a fairly powerful version of Wolfsbane there, but seeing as how it is all crammed in to just 5 clicks, I think it works. I am still not wild about the Flurry/BCF combo, but at least now we are looking at a higher price tag and it is buried pretty deep in the dial, too. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

WB-V7 "Hidden in the Middle" - Not bad. It doesn't reach out and grab me, but I can't really find any serious fault with it, either. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V8 "Nonstop" - This is pretty good. I wouldn't mind seeing a single click of 3 damage or maybe an extra click of life, but this is definitely a solid start. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

[JDKenada]

Rookies:

"Big 3"
Aside from the base 3, I like it. Everything else about the dial works the way it should. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"Here'n'There"
This is an interesting take on Rahne. Very original. I think if you lowered the movement values, I'd probably like it better. Perhaps the third click DV to 15 would make it nicer too. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"Turn It Up To 11"
In New Mutants, Wolfsbane wasn't all that "Battle Fury" characteristically. Also 11 atk and THREE clicks of 3 damage is just too much for me to like this dial. :d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

"Go Time"
While I prefer to see the rookie with an activation click, it's not a must by any stretch. If it's not going to have that first click, I like this very much. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

"From The Shadows"
It's simple, but I'm not feeling it. Not bad, but not enough to interest me either. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

"Hoppin' Mad"
I'm not a fan of the Willpower, first click Battle Fury, or Exploit Weakness. Otherwise, I like it. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"Dodgy"
Again, I don't think she should have Battle Fury as a Rookie. I'd make an exception for possibly the last click or two, but that's about it. Otherwise, I like it. I see no reason the second click couldn't be a 9 AV though. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"New Moon"
See previous regarding Battle Fury. Otherwise, in terms of tweaking the old dial, this isn't shabby. It's another one that doesn't quite do it for me. However, I can't put my finger on why. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:


Experienced

"New Tricks"
New Moon or New Tricks, I still feel the same way. The Experienced at least warrants a bit of Battle Fury. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"Quake"
Except for the 10 Charge, and CCE, I really like this dial. Something about the 10 stands out for the wrong reasons. Otherwise, like I said...I like what you've done here. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

"Mobility"
There is nothing wrong with this dial for 32 points. Unfortunately, I picture Wolfsbane as more offensive minded than defense. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

"Still Activating"
I like this one. If I was to change anything, it would be to move Battle Fury from the second click to the fifth click, and make the last click a 14 DV. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

"Transformer"
Not a fan of the Perplex for her, and I'm on the fence for the Exploit Weakness. Otherwise, I think I like it. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"Relentless"
11 Attack? Flurry 3 damage? I like the idea that she gets meaner as she goes. However, if you're playing that card, her attack for the last two clicks should be 6-7. At the same time, I think the 10-11 are too high to begin with. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

"Slow Hop"
I like the creativity this one shows. It's not crazy attack, damage, or defense that some have shown. It might not be the best, but what it does it happens to do very well. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

"Flurrious"
Again, I'm not sure I like EW on her. A click of CR up front maybe instead? :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:


Veterans
"Neopolitan"
I don't know if this is from the makers of "Slow Hop" but it falls under the same category for the same reasons. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

"Sniffer"
I know it goes against much of what I've said with other dials, but they also weren't Veterans. I like the Exploit on this one, and everything works for me. The only thing that chaffes me is the SP. Reduce the range to six and I think you've got a real winner here. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

"Tracking"
This one has potential, just as the previous one did. On Vet, I think you can drop the activation click, and perhaps the CR drop to 14. Otherwise, I think reduce the SP to six and this one is also good. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"Feral"
The reason the Exploit worked for me on a previous dial was the lower AV's at the back end of the dial. For that reason, I don't like this one as much. Your special power is fine, and if she's going to go all Feral, I think she should have a click of Battle Fury in there somewhere. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"Protector"
Points for being unique, but with so little to work with points wise I don't see that Defend works for her. An SP that puts her in line of the attack instead maybe. Otherwise, I quite like this one. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"Weakness"
Got all the powers right, and at this stage the claws come out when she's raging. Works for me. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

"Hidden In The Middle"
Not only does the phrase describe my stomach, but it's good for the dial. Perhaps instead of second click Flurry, she gets first click L/C for a little Pounce action? :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

"Nonstop"
This is another dial that's good for the points, but it doesn't feel like Wolfsbane to me, at all. :d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

[saturnflight]

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R1 "Big 3")
Team: X-men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6713089153881526714267131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
I gotta agree with folks who can't see the point loss here for the gains it shows. A good dial progression, but the stats just don't fit. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R2 "Here n' There")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal671411091629916257131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOAttack - Wolf Form: Wolfsbane can use the Move and Attack ability, but only suffers a -1 modifier to her attack value when using this ability.
Really cool idea, but I'd like to see it done slower. And perhaps without the Combat Reflexes. It's neat to see how this dial uses NONE of the standard powers that show up on the other dials. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R3 "Turn It Up to 11")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7713110111528101437913369133KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Was this design based on Cheetah from Icons? Because I feel like Cheetah's a lot more points. I don't know that Wolfsbane is an 11 attack gal either, except possibly in X-Force (which is at least a Veteran, and probably an LE). :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

#028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R4 "Go Time")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal89162781516714156131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
I like Shape Change up front, and can appreciate (and mostly approve) the rest of the dial. I'd love to see that up-front 9 be an 8 instead. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R5 "From the Shadows")
Team: Xmen
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7916289162881517815167141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
9s should be 8s, 8s should be 7s. I like a lot of this dial, but the 2nd click of Charge might put it over the top. :d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R6 "Hoppin' Mad")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal88161791717816167152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
No Flurry Blades for Wolfsbane. Period. That combo should be held for much more deadly, well-trained characters. Not Rahne. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R7 "Dodgy")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6613178161781616715267152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Shape Change on click one, please? Then I'll bite. Until then, it's a bit dull, and very much based on the old version. :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

#ic028 R Wolfsbane (WB-R8 "New Moon")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6714188162781517713167131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
Drop every click of Battle Fury, a click of Blades, and then give this figure some character! :d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

[GarganisScorpion]

Wolfsbane Rookie

WB-R1 "Big 3"
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
Too good for the points (though admittedly not by much) but more importantly, not different enough from the original version.

WB-R2 "Here n' There"
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable:
Love this one! It actually feels like a wolf. My only problem with it is the defense on clicks 2 and 3. Which is just too high both for the points, and for who Wolfsbane is. I would rather see it as 14 with CR, or just a plain 16 with no powers.

Still I think this dial is the best choice, and just needs a little modification to be perfect. Just lower that defense.

WB-R3 "Turn It Up to 11"
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
The 11 attack is just too high, sorry. Charge and blades is already very dangerous on such a low costed character, and would only be permissable if the attack was at an 8 or so.

WB-R4 "Go Time"
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
I like it, it's straightforward, but I miss the activation click and there isn't much that stands out about the dial.

WB-R5 "From the Shadows"
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
Nice try, but... nahh.

WB-R6 "Hoppin' Mad"
:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
Woah, definitely way undercosted. Flurry/Blades should never appear together on Wolfsbane.

WB-R7 "Dodgy"
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
Not bad, but I think the defense is too strong. I like the leap/climb though.

WB-R8 "New Moon"
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
Balanced for the points, but dull and too close to the original.


Experienced Wolfsbane

WB-E1 "New Tricks"
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
Again, just not enough of a change from the original to warrant the remake.

WB-E2 "Quake"
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
I am liking what I am seeing here. Appears balanced, but perhaps has too many powers all over the place? If this dial was simplified a little (like changing the CCE on the last click to a simple 1 damage) I would like it more.

WB-E3 "Mobility"
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
Bonus points for being original! Only change I would make is changing the defense on the second click to a plain 17 with no powers, then the third to a 16 with no powers. Wolfsbane could be decent as a tie-up piece, but she shouldn't be *that* hard to put down.

WB-E4 "Still Activating"
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
I can't quite put my finger on why I don't like this one much, but I don't. Perhaps it's the high defense and BF?

WB-E5 "Transformer"
:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
Waaaay too powerful.

WB-E6 "Relentless"
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:
I really like the power distribution, and the idea you were going for. The only thing that needs changing is to tone down some of the numbers. I would drop the attack on the first three clicks by 1 point each (starting at 8 and moving up to a 10), and I would lover the damage to 2 on the final two clicks. If you makes those changes, I would give this one 4/4.

WB-E7 "Slow Hop"
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
This one looks odd to me, especially the L/C on the last click. Like the name that was given to it, it makes me think of a limping monkey trying to swing back to a medic.

WB-E8 "Flurrious"
:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
Flurry/Blades is too powerful for such a cheap figure.

Wolfsbane Veteran

Here I'm only going to focus on two dials presented, because they both share an almost identical SP and I think they have the biggest potential to be combined and reworked into the perfect dial choice.

WB-V2 "Sniffer" and WB-V3 "Tracker"
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable:

I love the idea behind the SP, but I think it is a bit over powerful as it is presented here. Here is a more suitable wording, IMO:

Wolf Senses: As a free action, Wolfsbane may cancel Stealth on an adjacent figure.

The biggest problem with the original version was that they could be used at range. Wolfsbane could stay in the back behind a wall of X-men and her allies would still get full benefits from her tracking ability. With my proposed edit, Wolfsbane would actually have to sniff her prey out; she would take a move action to move up next to one or more stealthed opponents, and thereby point them out to the rest of her team.

Aside from the SP, in general I think "Tracker" hit closer to the mark for stats, particularly as far as attack and defense are concerned. "Sniffer" has some better power choices though, such as Toughness and Stealth up front. I think my ideal combination would be "Tracker"'s dial, with the opening charge replaced with Stealth and the opening CR replaced with Toughness.

[anonym0use]

Congratulations! You've won second place in a beauty contest.

Here's the kicker - you were the only entrant in the contest!

That's how I feel about these dials. I won't feel good voting for any of them as is. :(

I'd sooner swap sculpts with X-23 than reach for these. Take a look:

mu030 R X-23
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 35
Keywords: Mutant, Teen, Weapon X
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst8916179152791526814167141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
(Attack) Programmed Assassin: X-23 can use Stealth. When she occupies hindering terrain and makes a close combat attack, modify her attack value by +1.


Again, I entered all these dials into a point calculator to see what came out, and it seems like most people aren't using calculators when determining dial layout. Note: Super Senses, Leap/Climb, and Toughness are expensive!

Note: Where I had a problem with Battle Fury on the R, I can see it on the E and V from Her X-Factor, X-Force perma-mutation days. Overall I'm disapointed with the E's. There's nothing but a steady progression of the submitted R dials here in a mixed order.

Wolfsbane E



#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E1 "New Tricks")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal6714189162791527814177141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
(WB-E1 "New Tricks")
Real cost: 31 points
The points come in under budget, but I don't see any "new tricks" with this dial, except a linear progression of an R version. Rahne could have any number of close combat powers (CCE, Flurry) - but this dial picks some ho-hummers. I do like the change up of end dial stealth, but question its value there. It's not a dial I want to represent the E version, and I likely wouldn't reach for it in most cases.




#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E2 "Quake")
Team: X-men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal881529915210814181014179120KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

(WB-E2 "Quake")
Real cost: 50 points.
Cut off the last click, remove two clicks of L/C and one lick of charge and it's 33 points. Aside from that, Quake doesn't feel like Rahne. I do like the last click, for the CCE, a power that's sorely represented among all the submissions for Wolfsbane. My suggestion is to pare down the numbers - a lot. Drop AV's by 1 across the board, drop movement by at least 1 point (maybe 2 in the case of the 10 click). Leap/Climb and SUper Senses are a point soak, use some CR or ES/D in its place.


#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E3 "Mobility")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal891721010163991528814278132KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

(WB-E3 "Mobility")
Real Cost? 43 points.
If you took away the Charge, Toughness and Leap/Climb, it would be 32 points. An opening 17/Toughness is a bit much. In fact I'd save Toughness for the Vet. I really like the power set, but numbers are too high. That 10Av/3 damage shouldn't be on an E Wolfsbane dial. Again, this feels like a fine VET version, but doesn't fulfill the E niche for me (I'd also sooner see Frontloaded Stealth, than the rear placement.



#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E4 "Still Activating"
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal661318816178161781616715267152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


(WB-E4 "Still Activating")
Real Cost? 51 points.
The Super Senses and L/C murder the point cost on this dial. Aside from that it's not a bad dial - the numbers don't feel like I'm lying when I tell my opponent "this is Wolfsbane", but dial is a smidge too long for the points. I'd argue the AVs are a hair too low as well, she could have one 9 on there. Lose some L/C and SS and we're in business.



#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E5 "Transformer")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal8917179171781616815167141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKODamage - Transformation: Wolfsbane can use perplex, but may only target herself.



:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:
(WB-E5 "Transformer")
Roughly 55 points (Sp Perplex is difficult to calculate).
To make this dial work for the points, you have to cut off the last click, remove all the damage and defense powers. Then it's 32 points.
As presented, this dial is far too munchkin for my tastes. I love the character, but would feel ashamed to play this as an E version at this point cost. Defense is too high across the board - Toughness doesn't need to be here. I'm fine with Self Perplex, though the EW/Flurry/BCF is tired. Logan doesn't have it that good. I can see her having some of those powers but not all on the same slot. This dial needs a lot of work for me to even rate it with one shield.


#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E6 "Relentless")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal9914110101519111518916369143KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

(WB-E6 "Relentless")
Real cost? 54 points.
To make it work for the points you'd need to cut off the last click, drop a click of charge and lose all the Toughness.
Someone mentioned Rahne doesn't need an 11, and I'll restate it. Wolfsbane, especially the E version, should not have a natural 11. Sure, give her some stealth and the ambush feat, a 10 attack pounce, a vendetta card - but not a printed 11. Not. On. The. E. Charge speed could be curbed a bit to bring cost into a reasonable zone. Needs a lot of work.



#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E7 "Slow Hop")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal8916278151671415613146121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:
(WB-E7 "Slow Hop")
Real Cost? 31 points.
While I liked the R version somewhat, seeing it again leaves me cold. I want some Pizazz here folks! Wow me! Give me a reason to reach for these figures? Otherwise, what's the point? Yes it's worth the points, but is it worth playing?



#ic029 E Wolfsbane (WB-E8 "Flurrious")
Team: X men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal7916279162791616815168151KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO




:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:


(WB-E8 "Flurrious")
Real cost? 49 points. Again, Super Senses and Leap/Climb prove to be a point soak. I'd start chopping there to bring it down to specs. Less munchkin than some, I'm still not there with this dial.

[anonym0use]

As a comparison, here's a 32 point dial I designed... She serves as a tie-up piece for her team, something no other version does. Plasticity? You question? When those jaws clamp down, tyou're not moving anywhere... :devious: It's a little like E Vixen I suppose, but brings something different to the table in terms of the REV progression.



ic029 E Wolfsbane
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst
89152
68151
78141
77141
67141
KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

And here's a V I made:

#ic030 V Wolfsbane: "SLOW BOIL"
Team: X-men TA
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: EXCALIBUR
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal98162881528914271015369142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

This shows her more Stealthy/X-force side, she gets all careless at the end and goes for the throat. Again, I just wanted to show some different things you can do. I'm in favor of a non-linear trend when it comes to design, specifically, Wolfsbane's AV's don't have to be a straight drop. I'm okay with downward trends, but it's those mid-dial upswings, the second winds... that I love to see and play.

[saturnflight]

I don't know how I feel about the dial calculator you're using, Anonym0use. While I can see some of those guys going way over the point cost, I just don't feel like Super Senses or Leap/Climb have historically gotten priced all that high.

[anonym0use]

I don't know how I feel about the dial calculator you're using, Anonym0use. While I can see some of those guys going way over the point cost, I just don't feel like Super Senses or Leap/Climb have historically gotten priced all that high.

I added in X-23 for comparison, and she came out at 35 on the nose. Yes, there's room for some leeway, but when a figure is +5 points or more over, I know something is wrong.

Out of curiosity, what's the dial calculator you use?

Edit: http://globaldefenseforce.com/heroclixdials/DialGenerator.html

If there's a better one that I'm unaware of, I'd love to see it. :)

[normalview]

I added in X-23 for comparison, and she came out at 35 on the nose. Yes, there's room for some leeway, but when a figure is +5 points or more over, I know something is wrong.

Out of curiosity, what's the dial calculator you use?

Edit: http://globaldefenseforce.com/heroclixdials/DialGenerator.html

If there's a better one that I'm unaware of, I'd love to see it. :)

I won't say which dials are mine, but I will say that I did use a point calculator and all of my dials were within 3 points of Wolfsbane's actual cost (an acceptable fudge factor, seeing as how we don't what the actual formula is).

[anonym0use]

Well, I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my assessment. I do feel like some of the dials were created with little consideration for the formula. I'm genuinely curious to know if there's a better calculator...

[Sensualninja]

Big 3
Transformer
Tracker

[normalview]

Well, I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with my assessment. I do feel like some of the dials were created with little consideration for the formula. I'm genuinely curious to know if there's a better calculator...

You didn't ruffle my feathers, at least. And I agree that many of those dials are waaaaaaaaay off. But I also wanted to point out that I am sure at least some of those dials (mine at the very least) was made with a calculator. If there is a discrepancy in point cost, in those cases, it is most likely due to the calculator, not the designer.

[normalview]

Big 3
Wolf Senses
Tracker

Care to say why?

Specifically, the the reviews so far have pretty much slammed Big 3. What exactly do you like about it that the rest of us aren't seeing?


And which one is "Wolf Senses"? Did you mean Sniffer (Wolf Senses is Sniffer's SP)?

[Sensualninja]

According to this dial Generator

SI Spider-Man: 89 Points +39
Howard The Duck: 41 Points +6
She-Thing: 61 Points +11
The-Hood: 44 Points +16


If We are using a Generator that thinks the Hood is over costed by over %50 then count me out.


I have many problems with that Calculator, most namely that it thinks 2 Damage + Close Combat Expert is more expensive then a natural 4 Damage

[saturnflight]

I use the Units section, bringing up similar character types within a +-7 points (ish) range. I won't tell you which dials are mine, but I will say that at least one of those I look at now and say, "What was I thinking in July?!"

And yeah, I liked your comparison and wasn't bothered by it, but wanted to bring to people's attention that there is no perfect point calculator, and what we're using for evaluation is as subjective as someone assessing it by their own standards.

(I actually plan [or planned] to put a spare Wolfsbane on an X-23 dial, so apparently we think alike!)

[Sensualninja]

because I don't Think AFTER activation click 9AV with 3 Damage to too good for its points, when it is only protected by 15D Super Senses and NO MOVE AND attack,

This figure is worse then X-23 in every way, and people still think its too good for 28 Points?

Are you kidding me?

Its going to have 15D Super Senses, TWO ACTION TOKENS, and 4 clicks of life.

Nothing screams easy 28 more then that, and yet everyone thinks its too Good?



I think people are too stuck on IC challenge mode to remember what design looks like today


Too me The Values are twice as important as the powers in terms of cost, and more importantly the Powers/Numbers combination, which in every instance is almost always a unique situation.

[normalview]

because I don't Think AFTER activation click 9AV with 3 Damage to too good for its points, when it is only protected by 15D Super Senses and NO MOVE AND attack,

This figure is worse then X-23 in every way, and people still think its too good for 28 Points?

Are you kidding me?

Its going to have 15D Super Senses, TWO ACTION TOKENS, and 4 clicks of life.

Nothing screams easy 28 more then that, and yet everyone thinks its too Good?



I think people are too stuck on IC challenge mode to remember what design looks like today


Too me The Values are twice as important as the powers in terms of cost, and more importantly the Powers/Numbers combination, which in every instance is almost always a unique situation.

If that's what you think, fair enough. That's all I wanted.

Just posting character X, Y, and Z without any explanation as to why you chose those doesn't really help the dial designers who might be thinking of tweaking their dials based on the feedback.

[jackstar7]

Just to echo that point, as someone who works creatively as often as I can, constructive feedback is critical to the process and people who are serious would gladly take negative criticism that's constructive over a random high-five.

Please keep the feedback coming, and when possible, make it constructive.

[Maniac_nmt]

I think people are too stuck on IC challenge mode to remember what design looks like today


I would tend to agree with that, given some comments on the Cap, Boomerang, and Spidey thread.

[batjester]

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and say that there are quite a few of these that haven't sniffed a points calculator. There are just too many upgrades without comparable downgrades to balance them out.



Rookies
WB-R1 (Big 3) - Stats are cheap, losing one click of Blades does not gain you 2 clicks of Super Senses, let alone the rest. Lose the L/C, the Super Senses and change click one to 1 damage and click two to 2 damage and you're in better shape.
:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R2 (Here n' There) - I like the dial, but I think that 16 with CR is a bit high for the rookie - change it to 15 with CR or just 16 with nothing and I'm on board.
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

WB-R3 (Turn It Up To 11) - No. Sorry.
:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R4 (Go Time) - Charge plus Blades on a 28 point figure just seems to be pushing it for me (more for abuse purposes than cost factor). The base numbers look good and I like the Shape Change.
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R5 (From the Shadows) - Gaining too much and losing too little. Either lose all the charge or one click of it and the last click of life. I don't like the Super Sense on her, CR seems more apropriate.
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R6 (Hopin Mad) - 17 plus Super Senses on a rookie (or just on her at all) is too much. Exploit weakness is an interesting take though and I'm good with the placement.
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R7 (Dodgy) - Too "blocky" for me and it's gaining too much losing too little again.
:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-R8 (New Moon) - Better. Move the Stealth to the front, lose one click of life, and lose the BF (as others have said it doesn't really fit her rookie form). Really like the numbers you've got for her - you can actually progress up without being out of line.
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:



Experienced

WB-E1 (New Tricks) - Looks like New Moon with stats upgrade. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't see any real reason to reach for this over the rookie.
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E2 (Quake) - Too many pretty colors for the points I'm afraid. I do like that you've added a couple powers that we haven't really seen (Quake and CCE). I like the CCE (value of 1 or 2 would still be ok) but not sold on just strait Quake - nerf it a little bit and I'd be more comfortable with it. I think the 10 av is too high though. One click of Charge and nothing else or 2 clicks of Leap/Climb, either would be ok but as it is you've got too much going on for the points.
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E3 (Mobility) -17 is too high of a DV, it doesn't give you any real room to go to for the Vet without things getting out of whack. Same with the 10 AV and 3 damage, well the damage isn't as big of an issue for me just not with the 10 av.
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E4 (Still Activating) - She's pretty consistant. That's alot of L/C though. Might cost out ok, but I'd rather see a click of Flurry in there (not on BCF click though).
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E5 (Transformer) - Egads that's overkill. Lose a click, drop those 17's to 16's, and lose the SP. Not fond of the toughness to start either. Maybe go Super Sense, Super Senses, CR, Toughness, CR.
:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E6 (Relentless) - Too much Toughness, too much Charge, too much 3 Damage. Flurry with 3 damage? An 11 AV? Too much.
:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E7 (Slow Hop) - Here's one that I think we have too little going on. Lose the last click and give her something for defense - maybe a little Willpower or ESD just to change things up a bit. Her AV's could also go up by one after the second click.
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-E8 (Flurrious) - Stats look decent but I don't like that much L/C on her. Here I'd actually like to see on click of Toughness up front then two clicks of either Willpower or CR (probably WP).
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

Vets

WB-V1 (Neopolitan) - While I'm liking this dial for the most part, that last click doesn't really do anything for me and I'm not sold on a 17 defense for her. Consistant 16's I'd be down with though.
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

WB-V2 (Sniffer) - No way is that 39 points. I like the idea of the sp, but I think it's too powerful. Someone else suggested that it be change to her having to be adjacent to the character and I think that would work much better. 17 with Super Senses is Spider-Man/speedster territory - not Wolfsbane.
:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V3 (Tracker) - Tone down the SP to having to be adjacent and you're on the right track. I still think we're gaining too much over the original to really be costed right. Lose a click of life (not the activation one though) and a couple of clicks of L/C.
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V4 (Feral) - I like almost all your stats (although I think 10 for speed is too high). The rest of the dial is overpowered/undercosted. Super charge with Toughness followed by L/C with Super Senses is probably closer to 55-60 points.
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V5 (Protector) - 10 for speed is too high. I don't really get the Defend, but I might just be missing something (plus I think it bumps the cost up too high). If you change the Defend to CR or Willpower I'm with you because I like the rest of the dial.
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V6 (Weakness) - With the exception of the 17 with Super Senses I like all of this dial. I wouldn't feel cheap in using it, but it's one that I'd pull out and I'm not much of a Wolfsbane fan.
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

WB-V7 (Hidden in the Middle) - Same as Weakness, I'm not a fan of the 17 with Super Sense.
:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

WB-V8 (Nonstop) - 10 is too high for speed. 17 is too high for defense, especially when paired with CR. Drop the speed down by 2 and the defense down by 1 on the first three clicks and then I'm liking it alot more. It would be nice to see some CCE mixed in there somewhere since you didn't put in BCF (which is a nice treat to be honest).
:d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

[jackstar7]

Regarding Charge and Blades on a cheap figure, don't forget one of my favorite generics, the V Kobra Fanatic who brings Charge+Blades for the economical 24 pts.

Battle Fury seems to be the balancing factor, but it has been done!

[JDKenada]

I did 8 damage to Vet Hal Jordan with that Vet Fanatic's opening click. Heh.

Plus, remember that after that opening click...that piece goes swirly almost immediately.

[normalview]

The Kobra Fanatic is a fair comparison, but let's take a look at what you are really getting with him:

un015 V Kobra Fanatic
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 24
Keywords: Strike Force Kobra, Warrior
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst8814188142771316713167121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

So, for 24 points you get Charge and BCF, but only with an AV of 8... and that's pretty much it.

Wolfsbane, on the other hand, is at least very least also bringing the X-Men TA to the party and that ain't cheap (its not as expensive as, say, MoE, but it definitely costs a lot more than not having a TA ;)).

So, if we use this Kobra Fanatic as a template for a new, Charging Wolfsbane, I'd guess for 28 points she'd be able to Charge for a click at most, have 5 clicks of life at most (4 is probably more reasonable), and probably won't have any real defensive powers. In other words, much more like "Go Time" than "Turn it up to 11" or "From the Shadows".

[normalview]

And as a second point of comparison (for a Charge/BCF Vet version) consider E Marrina:

aw035 E Marrina
Team: Avengers
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 37
Keywords: Alpha Flight, Avengers
m-dolphina-fistd-starburstg-starburst881628816288152871527714177131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

Again, just a single click of Charge and BCF with a bit of CCE to garnish.

Kind of puts a lot of those E and V submissions in a pretty harsh perspective, no? Charge is, apparently, a lot more expensive than some of those designs might lead us to believe.

[Sensualninja]

cm033 V Elektra
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 26
Keywords: Martial Artist, The Hand
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst8101637915278142671325612145121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

as they say on 4chan

/thread

[normalview]

cm033 V Elektra
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 26
Keywords: Martial Artist, The Hand
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst8101637915278142671325612145121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

as they say on 4chan

/thread

And this is in response to which dial?

Elektra is awesome, no doubt. But none of the Wolfsbane dials really fall into the same wheelhouse as this dial. One of the reasons I thought the Kobra Fanatic comment was so appropriate earlier was due to the large amount of Charge and BCF we were seeing on these dials... all this dial really shows us is that Stealth and Willpower are pretty cheap. And we already knew that. However, most of the completely overpowered dials we are seeing here with Wolfsbane have a lot of Charge, Leap/Climb, BCF, Super Senses, or Toughness.

I don't really see how this Elektra has much do to with these dials. The IC versions, with all the BCF, sure. But this one, not so much.

[Sensualninja]

almost all the opinions of the rookie Wolfsbane



Its one thing to say "This is too good for Wolfsbane"


but with the reception of the 11 dial, most people are saying this is too good for the points.

3 Damage, Stealth, Flurry, Willpower, 10AV. Six Clicks of Health all clocking in at 26 points.

This fig is better then 90% of our so called overpriced Wolfsbane rookies.

[Sensualninja]

this is more of a comment on what you CAN get for 26 Points

[normalview]

This fig is better then 90% of our so called overpriced Wolfsbane rookies.

I am not sure where you are getting your statistics from (The Dept. of Made Up Numbers? ;)).

But as I said above, this Elektra is awesome... but she is also mostly powered up with Stealth and Willpower. Cheap stuff.

The reason we are calling a lot of those Wolfsbanes overpriced is not because they can dish out the damage like Elektra (well, some can... and some can even do it a lot better), but because they've got a boat load of other powers like Charge or Toughness that we know must be pretty expensive. Plus, there is also the team ability (and looking at some of those dials, I gotta believe that some people just plain forgot to include that in their cost estimates).

Sure, you can get a great character like Elektra for 26 points. You can also get the awesome E Mockingbird or E Spymaster for similar costs. But none of them really have the types of powers or abilities we are seeing on these dials.

When comparing apples to apples, though, and the Wolfsbane dials are placed side by side with other characters with similar powers and point costs (like the Marrina and the Fanatic above) it is easier to see how expensive some of these dials should be.

[Sensualninja]

Well according to this calculator the Dial is 31 Points ; )

[batjester]

cm033 V Elektra
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 26
Keywords: Martial Artist, The Hand
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst8101637915278142671325612145121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

as they say on 4chan

/thread

Here's my problem with this comparison. See that V in the corner? As a character Elektra should be a better fighter than Wolfsbane. I don't think anyone would really disagree with that. So when there are experienced dials that have Wolfsbane being able to hit as well or even better than the vet Elektra, well it's just wrong.

The dials we're creating are supposed to be fun, balanced, and I would hope character accurate. 11 AV just isn't character accurate for Wolfsbane.

[Sensualninja]

Here's my problem with this comparison. See that V in the corner? As a character Elektra should be a better fighter than Wolfsbane. I don't think anyone would really disagree with that. So when there are experienced dials that have Wolfsbane being able to hit as well or even better than the vet Elektra, well it's just wrong.

The dials we're creating are supposed to be fun, balanced, and I would hope character accurate. 11 AV just isn't character accurate for Wolfsbane.

and in My follow up post I addressed that I am fine with that arguement, but that is generally not what people are saying.

people are looking at the rookie dials and saying they are to good for the points

[batjester]

and in My follow up post I addressed that I am fine with that arguement, but that is generally not what people are saying.

people are looking at the rookie dials and saying they are to good for the points

Many figures are too good for the points/broken/undercosted/etc. Just because people can find dials that are equally unbalanced doesn't justify doing it again.

[anonym0use]

As an aside - really, are there other point calculators out there? I have a serious interest. The fact that no one's willing to share makes me a little sad.

[anonym0use]

According to this dial Generator

SI Spider-Man: 89 Points +39
Howard The Duck: 41 Points +6
She-Thing: 61 Points +11
The-Hood: 44 Points +16


If We are using a Generator that thinks the Hood is over costed by over %50 then count me out.


I have many problems with that Calculator, most namely that it thinks 2 Damage + Close Combat Expert is more expensive then a natural 4 Damage

There are always exceptions, and some of those dials you pointed out help illustrate my reason to believe the cost has changed over the years. According to Wizkids the point calculator has never changed, but I argue it must have - after all, it's not fair to keep it the same when rules changes have happened to curb some figure's powers (flyers no longer carry flyers, HSS'ers no longer can fire full range).

Still that argument is not here or there.

FWIW - I have no idea how you're calculating Special Powers, but I came up with the Hood's cost (using that calculator) at ~40 points (and to me Howard's 6 point overage is acceptable given his threat level). Still overpriced though, so you make a good point. Thanks for bringing this up.

The thing is... do we want to jump the shark? I'd rather have fun clix that are somewhat under-to-average powered, than open a Pandora's boxful of munchkins. Likewise, just because you *can* do something on a figure (like Flurry+BCF) does it mean you should? Does Rahne deserve Flurry/BCF?

Take a look at the figures that have this power post-Ultimates. It's *never* frontloaded anymore. Often times (Lobo, Karate Kid, Klarion) it's on the last click. Some figures - like Si Wolverine and Valkyrie - have a deliberate low AV to match with those clicks. Otherwise, that combo is buried in the middle. Then there's Talia...

Are there other factors in the design process that we're not seeing?

Aside from the fact that the 20 point Talia can do nothing else, I suspect she's got the powers lined up to be a prime selling point for Alpha. I had a friend who once speculated that Firelord was so good, because he was a relative unknown (ie: not a headlining act in the way Spidey, Cap, etc are), that Wizkids wanted the figure to have map time. I can see where some of that may have been translated to some of the figures you pointed out (She-thing, Howard).

She-thing appears to have been designed with modular intent, the way Starter set figures were designed (see: DR), at one point she may have been in the starter set (for all we know).

With Spidey - again I'm not sure how you designed the dial with the SP - for one thing, he doesn't have Incap (which is a huge distinction in design - if he had Incap, it would say "SPidey has Incap" and he would meet all the prereq's for incap feats, etc.) they may have just wanted to give us a reason to play this (ugly sculpt) Spidey over the xzillion other Spideys.

Bottom line - I'm not trying to figure out a way to justify those Min/Max dials, and then use that same logic to justify some of these.

When I judge a character's dial I mostly look at 3 things.

1.) Is this an accurate representation for the character?
For instance: Should E Wolfsbane should be able to KO Thanos in one round (Flurry/Blades/EW)? No. Freaking. Way.

2.) Is this a different take on the character? Would I want to play this dial over the other versions, both pre-exisiting and in the new re-dial REV progression?

3.) Is it a reasonable point cost?

I really like Rahne/Wolfsbane, and have been following the New Mutants/X-Factor/X-Force for years so I feel more familiar with the character than, say - Blade or Constrictor.

SOME of these dials ARE ACCURATE representations of the character,
MOST of these dials are different takes on the character, and
SOME are a reasonable cost.


But hardly any are all three.:)

[Sensualninja]

I agree with most of what your saying Mouse, (Except that any of those dials are Min/Max except Spider-Man) and that there is no WB's dials here that open with blades/flurry

My problem is not with the point cost theory, its more with the use of this specific dial calculator.

your last 3 points I totally agree with, and I think should take priority over use of any 3rd party calculators

[saturnflight]

Wow, simply fascinating turn of topic here... so long as everyone's remembering to keep their cool about this, the conversation really is incredibly intriguing.

[jackstar7]

I've yet to use or try my hand with any calculator. I can see why people want to gauge their dial and such, but I always think when I've designed something whether the points really match the powers and if I think one of my dream-dials is just so good that everyone would suddenly play Darkhawk (for example), then I have to look at the point cost again, and then back at the powers again... and so forth.

I really want to have these dials see some regular play. I mean Wolfsbane is a great case for this project as she's so outclassed by figures that she should be able to hang with these days.

Just wanted to apparently say nothing in particular... but I'm still in awe of all the work and discussion going on. This is so cool.

[anonym0use]

I really want to have these dials see some regular play. I mean Wolfsbane is a great case for this project as she's so outclassed by figures that she should be able to hang with these days.

What Wolfsbane needs is a 50 to 75 point updated version. There's no reason a 30 to 40 point version can't hang with X:Force/Factor, but trying to shoehorn a 50 point dial into a 32 point package doesn't seem like a reasonable solution.

Personally, I love having options. I love that I can play a 50 point Alpha Batman, or a 248 point Wonder Woman on a Justice League team. it's really sad that the early sets never gave us these options. Blade doesn't have an REV in Infinity Challenge so much as he has an RRE.

It's just a matter of finding a different role for the character to fit on a team.

[jackstar7]

What Wolfsbane needs is a 50 to 75 point updated version. There's no reason a 30 to 40 point version can't hang with X:Force/Factor, but trying to shoehorn a 50 point dial into a 32 point package doesn't seem like a reasonable solution.

Personally, I love having options. I love that I can play a 50 point Alpha Batman, or a 248 point Wonder Woman on a Justice League team. it's really sad that the early sets never gave us these options. Blade doesn't have an REV in Infinity Challenge so much as he has an RRE.

It's just a matter of finding a different role for the character to fit on a team.

You'll get no argument from me. I want dials to be pointed correctly, but I also think a 30-40pt dial (based on so many good pieces at those points) should be do-able. That ol' Rhane just looks silly next to Guido, and even any of the Jamies out there...

I think we can get there, through this process :)


To be sure though, I was, and remain an advocate of shorter potent dials, vs. longer weaker ones.

How many times do you see a heavy hitter just swat Rhane (or whomever) away and they are simply out for the count? I think that should translate to clix, and short dials are the means to that end. While she's in it, she can fight, but a strong right hand, and BAM!, she's out.

[anonym0use]

Maybe we need to get creative and give her a non-optional SP addendum to Battle Fury: When Wolfsbane has Battle Fury, she can not use the X-men TA.

When I've used the calculator to determine her cost, the TA kills her cost efficiency, every time. Likewise, I have a hard time seeing her use it when she's completely feral.

[anonym0use]

Wow, simply fascinating turn of topic here... so long as everyone's remembering to keep their cool about this, the conversation really is incredibly intriguing.

You'll get no argument from me.


Hopefully no one's taking my tone as argumentative. I may disagree with some designs, but I respect other's opinions as well.

Still have yet to see a point calculator other than the one I use... :p

[saturnflight]

Hopefully no one's taking my tone as argumentative. I may disagree with some designs, but I respect other's opinions as well.

Still have yet to see a point calculator other than the one I use... :p

In every Second Dial Solicitation, the first post links to a thread where 3-4 dial generators are.

I'm a bit too lazy to repost it here, sorry.

[batjester]

To be sure though, I was, and remain an advocate of shorter potent dials, vs. longer weaker ones.

How many times do you see a heavy hitter just swat Rhane (or whomever) away and they are simply out for the count? I think that should translate to clix, and short dials are the means to that end. While she's in it, she can fight, but a strong right hand, and BAM!, she's out.

This has become my take on dial designs, and for just the reasons you mentioned. Sure a figure like say Electro is super powerful, but can he really stand more than one or two hits? Probalby not.

[saturnflight]

Because they were in my inbox:

#ic028 R Wolfsbane WB-R2 "Here n' There"
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 28
Keywords: New Mutants, Teen
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal67141991428914257131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOAttack - Wolf Form: Wolfsbane can use the Move and Attack ability, but her attack value is modified by -1 instead of -2 when she uses this ability.

#ic029 E Wolfsbane
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 32
Keywords: Animal, X-Factor
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal891721010161991518814278131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

[anonym0use]

*golf claps*

I like those new dials. :)

[JDKenada]

*golf claps*

I like those new dials. :)

Especially the experienced. :cool:

[anonym0use]

ic030 V Wolfsbane
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-boota-fistd-starburstg-starburst6714110101529915288152771516614166111KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO


Wolfsbane Veteran

[/quote]



#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V1 "Neopolitan")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal81017279162681515714146131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO



:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

I'm pretty happy with this dial, though I think it is a little undercosted. I might bump up the last two slots of AV by 1. I think BF should overlap the BCF/Flurry click, and personally, I'd make that click a 7 AV, but otherwise a nice design.




#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V2 "Sniffer")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal89171710171791616815167141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKODamage - Wolf Senses: Friendly characters that share a common keyword with Wolfsbane can ignore the effects of stealth to any opposing character within 10 squares of Wolfsbane.



:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

Wow, that SP is one of my all time favorites, but needs some work. If the SP were changed from "any opposing character within 10 squares" to "any opposing figure adjacent to Wolfsbane" I'd give this another :d-indomitable:. I can't, however vote foir this so long as Flurry/EW & BCF share one slot. Too much for a 39 point Rahne methinks.

Some of the damage and defense values are a smidge high, but otherwise not a bad design. If I may be so bold, I might re-envision it as this.m-normala-normald-normalg-normal89161710161791516815167141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKODamage - Wolf Senses: Friendly characters that share a common keyword with Wolfsbane can ignore the effects of stealth to any opposing figure adjacent to Wolfsbane.





#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V3 "Tracker")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal661318916178161781616715267152KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKODamage - Tracking Senses: Wolfsbane and adjacent friendly figures ignore the effects of hindering terrain when drawing line of sight to enemy figures within 10 squares of Wolfsbane.



:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

Not my favorite of the dials. Again, I don't think that SP is an accurate description of what she does. She may be able to suss someone out of stealth, but giving an adjacent ally the ability to fire through 10 clicks of hindering to hit a stealthed figure seems a bit much. Again, if it were crimped to work only as adjacent, or even a 4 square range I might favor it more. I'm not wowed by the activation click - it's a good tool for the R and even E, but the V is definitely full-feral.

Good numbers and decent power set though.




#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V4 "Feral")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal10101628915278151891416814167131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOSpeed - Feral Hunt: Wolfsbane may use Charge. Wolfsbane automatically breaks away and ignores characters for movement.



:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

This dial is one click too long, and the SP is one one click too long as well. I dig the SP, and the EW as opposed to BCF. I think I'd end with CR as opposed to SS.





#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V5 "Protector")
Team: X-men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal981628915381014110915210814189142KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO



:d-normal::d-normal::d-normal::d-normal:

I like defend, but this doesn't feel comic accurate or character accurate, and I feel like the Defend is too low to be of any use to figures in the 2DI mold. If anything, the 15 defend seems like a min/max way to give a medic any easy roll for Support. Swap it out for Willpower, and you've got an interesting dial!

Props for trying something different thought. A+ for creativity.





#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V6 "Weakness")
Team: X men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal89172710162791616815168151KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

[/quote]

:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

I can't help but feel I'm robbing my opponent with this figure, but I want to reach for it. One click less of SS and L/C and it would be perfect!





#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V7 "Hidden in the Middle")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal891727916278151681516714157131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO



:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal::d-normal:

Not a bad dial, but doesn't bring it like some of the rest, and it doesn't feel like Rahne - vet Rahne should start stealthy, and get angrier and more feral the more damage she takes. SHe really doesn't hide in the middle of a fight. It's also a click too long. :nervous:





#ic030 V Wolfsbane (WB-V8 "Nonstop")
Team: X-Men
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 39
Keywords: Excalibur
m-normala-normald-normalg-normal1091721091721091729816288162KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO

:d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-indomitable::d-normal:

Wow! I really like this dial. It lacks some teeth, yet is a useful way to spend 39 points. Speed values seem a tad high, I might drop all the speed values by 1, and 2 clicks of 10 charge also seem a bit much for the price tag - I might take the second click of charge down to an 8 (making movement 10,9,8,8,7).

Still, nicely done!