View Full Version : Battle Review: Redleg vs Xian
Xian and I just played a 200 pt battle via Cabal City courtesy of AIM (gotta plug the people that helped make it happen). This is a review from my standpoint. Xian says he'll chime in later with his commentary.
We played on the Truck Stop map.
I played my Bullseye, Agent of Hydra team:
V AIM Agent x2
R Hydra Op
R Hydra Medic
R Quicksilver
Red Skull
E Bullseye
V Doombot
R Vulture
He played the 2nd String JLA (I call them 2nd String cause none of them are stars on the cartoon :) ):
E Aquaman
E Blue Beetle
E Booster Gold
E Plastic Man
V Man Bat
E Checkmate Medic
After an hour and a half of gameplay: Quicksilver was KOed. ManBat was KOed. Aqua was on his last breath. Booster Gold had taken 2 clicks. One Aim Agent a click from death. AIM Agent 2 and Plastic had both taken a click.
Here's the analysis:
I've had pretty good luck with my team. Its strengths are numbers, maneuver, and flexibility. Its weaknesses are overall firepower and close combat.
My concerns for Xian's team were his excellent taxi range (Bullseye is rarely safe) and maneuverability (free moves for the major players). I also knew that Blue Beetle could wreck any formation I devised w/ force blast.
Based on this...his High Value Targets (Pieces that would help him win) were both Taxis and Blue Beetle. The High Payoff Target (His piece that when eliminated would help me win) was ManBat then Booster.
I was able to damage ManBat sufficiently, forcing him to push towards a medic. Quicksilver sprinted up to tie up any healing attempts. Xian eventually pulled Booster and Beetle back to deal with QS. This changed the tempo of the fight as Aqua (being poisioned) was on his own and Plastic was alone running a flank. The negative side of all this was that I lost QS, denying me free Doombot moves.
In order to combat boredom, I won't detail the entire fight.
I think Xian did the following well:
1) He pressed the assault, making full force of his JLA ability. The tempo was his to start.
2) He forced me to defend in 2, eventually 3, directions.
What I think he could have done better:
1) Unified front/Decisive Action. There were at least 2 turns were Aqua was left to defend himself against Skull and 3 goons. He pulled his 2 range characters so far back in order to kill QS that they were unable to affect the main fight.
2) Employing Plastic Man. Plastic was on his own for the entire match, and when he had his Perplex click he could only barely see Aqua. Powers like Perplex, Outwit, and PC grant flexibility only when they can see the entire fight. Make an effort to place them properly.
Here's the lesson I learned and the lessons that were reinforced:
1) Maintain tempo at all costs. The fight probably would have gone different if Booster and Beetle were taking shots into my formation.
2) Pick the right engagements. If he jammed up Bullseye's long range, I would have lost my most powerful piece. Not only could Beetle separate the taxi from Bullseye, but he could ignore any close attack Bullseye had to dish out.
2) Weigh your sacrifices. I lost QS...losing a free move for my taxi. Was it worth it to put the nail in Man Bat's coffin? I'm still undecided on that.
Well...that's that. My first battle review from my first scrimmage. If it's too detailed and too long...I apologize...I'm an Army officer...and this is supposedly the best way to analyze your own performance and take lessons from it.
Xian...I look forward to hearing what I could have done better...but more so to play again.
Any thoughts from the group?
CaptainCarl
02/10/2003, 22:28
interesting team redleg a lot fo figs and the big hitter was only 31 points but i guess you didnt have to push much and good dice rolls can sway it in your favor
i like to see different teams like that cause i know i would never make one like that but good to see and that it did well for itself
thecaptain
Like you say...that 31 point fig had better hit almost everything he shoots at.
It's critical that Bullseye is flanked by Hydra bonuses if I'm going to survive.
Good summary.
As far as my own failings, I completely agree.
I really really want to like E Plastic Man...I mean, I hate the character, but the figure has so many things to like about it...Plasticity, an incredible movement for a non-flier (10) on his first click, 4-square range, Perplex once you push him. However, it is really hard to figure out how to use him...you want to think of him as a mid-range attacker with Perplex, but after using him in a couple of games, I'm not sure that's accurate. He goes down incredibly easily, and loses Perplex fast. This game, I tried to use him as a harrying figure, but I definitely didn't pull that off successfully.
As far as leaving Aquaman out to dry...I didn't want to do that, but I also didn't think that I could afford to lose half of my maneuverability if Quicksilver took out Man-Bat. I would have enjoyed being able to pick off Quicksilver and Bullseye at range, but their initially high defenses (Marvel DV vs. DC AV) plus Energy Shield/Deflection made both targets incredibly hard to hit at long range. If Quicksilver hadn't pushed to base Man-Bat, Booster and Beetle would have wandered into the big fray in the middle, and started picking on Bullseye and the rest.
Also, since I wasn't looking directly at the figures, I tended to forget a few abilities, such as Beetle & Booster's Toughness, which, had I realized, I almost certainly would have flown them into base contact with Bullseye.
The same turn that Quicksilver pushed to base Man-Bat, Redleg made an excellent move by placing Red Skull between Bullseye and Aquaman. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but it made up my mind to save Man-Bat, as my prior plan had been to taxi Blue Beetle (with Booster Gold) right next to Bullseye, Force Blast Bullseye into base contact with Aquaman, and then hammer Bullseye with the heavy object Aquaman was carrying. Then again, when Aquaman later rolled a critical miss with the object, maybe it wouldn't have mattered anyway, but the Red Skull move was critical to changing the pace of the game, IMO.
Your lessons are spot on, Redleg. I'm not sure if sacrificing Quicksilver was worth taking out Man-Bat, but it was worth it to disrupt my strategy, in the form of making me pull back to defend my injured figure.
I also agree that maintaining tempo is probably one of the most important features of these battles. Sure, you don't want to be so aggressive that it hurts you, but obviously, if your opponent is forced to simply react to what you're doing, you have the advantage.
Redleg's use of Mastermind (and positioning his figures to support it) was very good. Lacking Outwit on my team, I had to reconsider a couple of attacks that I was going to make.
Something that I was aware would be a problem going into the game, (but not something that I prepared for ahead of time by comparing the numbers) was the disparity between the cheap Marvel figures' defensive values as compared to my DC figs attack values. My highest ranged attack value was 8, which is pretty pitiful when compared to Quicksilver & Bullseye at 15 or 16 + Energy Shield/Deflection. Ouch...10 or so to hit is just no good.
I think that the only major lesson that I can see would be for Redleg would be to make a more consistent effort to KO figures. I suspect that we only played 6 or 7 turns or so before the chatroom freaked out and I had to bail, but Aquaman could have been KOed one or two turns earlier with concentrated fire from Red Skull and the nearby AIM Agent.
A lesser issue is that even given the dual Leadership rolls, Redleg's team was hurting for actions due to having so many figures. Quicksilver's Brotherhood move provided some flexibility for QS and the Doombot, but beyond that, it seemed like too much time was being taken up in deployment, and not enough actions were left over for attacking. Bullseye taking a good shot every other turn is worthwhile, but with the lack of heavy hitters, it seems like the ratio of attack to movement should be close to 1:1, rather than what I perceived as something like 1:2 or 2:3. (Which could very well be wrong, but that's what it seems like in hindsight.) Anyway, the point is (to paraphrase someone or other) maneuver is definitely important, but the primary purpose of maneuvering is to bring firepower to bear, which didn't seem to be happening enough.
Xian
Great discussion! I hope to se more like it from others.
With any luck, Redleg and I will be playing more games, and I hope that we can frequently provide analysis along these lines.
I expect that we'll generally be fielding "unusual" teams, but if there's enough interest, maybe we could work with more "stock" teams.
More input = good. :)
Xian
My response to Xian's comments.
In hindsight, Booster Gold should have been my high payoff target. Man Bat was not so much of a threat after he dropped off his payload (Aquaman). On the other hand, Booster was still carrying around the dreaded Blue Beetle (a threat at range and my formation killer when BTB).
I left Aquaman alone because I considered him as good as dead w/ Skull's poison working away. Xian's right, I had 9 figures but it still felt like I was hurting for actions even when I made almost all my leadership rolls. I didn't want to 'waste an action' on Aqua when Booster and Beetle were to my south and Plastic Man was to my north. When the game ended, I was literally in a JLA sandwich.
Also...
After Xian's post, I'm completely confident that I should not have sacrificed Quicksilver to eliminate Man Bat. It killed too much of my maneuverability.
I've preached this before...but in this case I failed to listen to my own sermon. It's an extreme advantage in a 200pt game to be able to change the playing field through maneuver AND attack with all your main hitters in the SAME turn.
So long as I made a leadership roll (not difficult with 2 leaders on the board), Doombot could free taxi Bullseye to a new location (disrupting Xian's own maneuver and advance). Bullseye could attack (My heaviest hitter doing damage). Vulture could taxi Red Skull to a new location. Skull could attack and then possibly do poison damage in consequent turns.
By sacrificing an 18 pt Quicksilver, less than 10% of my build total, I denied myself all of the above. Talk about a lesson learned.
Finally...
Xian, PM me. I'd be more than willing to play again. Let me know if 200 pts and same timeframe are good for you. In fact, I'll post my team on a new thread when we hammer this out.
If you post your team as well, I'll respond with the strategy I'll be using to hopefully defeat you. It may bring some good input from Captain, Styrix, or other armchairs on the forum.
And of course the offer to play extends to everyone...
Heh. Just a couple of clarifications, as Bakija asked me privately why I gave up so early.
Redleg forgot that:
E Plastic Man had been damaged past his Perplex clicks
E Booster Gold had been damaged past his Toughness clicks
Meaning that Blue Beetle was my only (okay, and the medic) undamaged character, and he only has 2 clicks of Toughness vs. the Doombot, Red Skull, the AIM Agents, and Bullseye taking 2+ click damage shots at him.
And the chatroom freaked out and I was running late for band practice. :)
Interesting final take on Quicksilver. I guess I agree that it hurt your maneuverability later, but I think that the way it disrupted my strategy made it worthwhile. Then again, maybe that's my fault for responding the way I did. I suppose the medic and Man Bat could have attacked QS to try and make him less of a threat, but I'm not sure how well that would have worked.
Anyway. Look for more in the future. Assuming you enjoy all this talk talk.
Xian
To look at the teams:
>>V AIM Agent x2
R Hydra Op
R Hydra Medic
R Quicksilver
Red Skull
E Bullseye
V Doombot
R Vulture>>
Fun set up, although I'd be inclined to lose the R Hydra Operative (yeah, yeah, I know. A Hydra team...). That 9 points could be used to upgrade something useful--get a better medic and a better Quicksilver, although I'd also be inclined to ditch him too. Between R Quicksilver and Hydra Operative, you'd get 27 points to work with, enough to get a R Doombot, or upgrade the Medic and get another cheap flier (YJ?)
>>E Aquaman
E Blue Beetle
E Booster Gold
E Plastic Man
V Man Bat
E Checkmate Medic>>
Not bad at all, although I'd be inclined to use R Plastic Man so as to get the Perplex up front. With the extra points you save, boom, you get to swap V Man Bat (A super hero with jeans on? What is this? A bar?) for R Hawkman who is both JLA and totally fresh (adding class to the team with celebrity).
-Peter
Originally posted by bakija
To look at the teams:
>>E Aquaman
E Blue Beetle
E Booster Gold
E Plastic Man
V Man Bat
E Checkmate Medic>>
Not bad at all, although I'd be inclined to use R Plastic Man so as to get the Perplex up front. With the extra points you save, boom, you get to swap V Man Bat (A super hero with jeans on? What is this? A bar?) for R Hawkman who is both JLA and totally fresh (adding class to the team with celebrity).
Hey, the Hulk wore jeans! Sorta. And they were usually purple, I guess. Unlike Man Bat, who appears to be tradition-bound.
R Hawkman and E Booster Gold are my two favorite DC taxis right now, but I figured that I could afford to use an action on Man-Bat. Dropping Plastic Man to R loses JLA, which was really one of the primary attractions. E (JLA) Plastic Man is an effective harrying/flanking/support piece, whereas R Plastic Man requires one of my precious actions every time I want to do something with him. Not to mention, E has a full 2 clicks of Perplex, for the minor charge of 3 points. 3 points for JLA, more Perplex, and better movement? Yes please!
:)
But yeah, I like this 2nd String JLA, as it seems that they're under-utilized...at least in my neck of the woods. Still need to get a better understanding of how to best use Blue Beetle. I was going to taxi him onto the roof and Force Blast Red Skull or Bullseye off, but didn't get the chance.
Xian
Yeah...I was avoiding that roof after my initial attack. I was avoiding it like the plague. I can't Mastermind Red Skull's broken leg from a push off the building.
I disagree that QS should be benched. He helps me force the opponent to fight in two directions-important since I need to keep Bullseye alive. Also, his team ability gives my team so much more flexibility. If I swapped him and R Operative out, the extra DB would only be able to mimic the Hydra ability.
But most importantly...it's a Hydra team :)
Xian wrote:
>>Hey, the Hulk wore jeans! Sorta. And they were usually purple, I guess. Unlike Man Bat, who appears to be tradition-bound.>>
The Hulk could at least claim they were slacks. Man-Bat is wearing, like, Wranglers or something.
>>R Hawkman and E Booster Gold are my two favorite DC taxis right now, but I figured that I could afford to use an action on Man-Bat.>>
Certainly, and the two are remarkably similar (but for the fashion sense), but you areonly paying 1 more point to get the free move, which is often important, especially for a taxi.
>>Dropping Plastic Man to R loses JLA, which was really one of the primary attractions.>>
Yeah, I suppose, but the improvement is minimal for the 3 points, and you have to work to get to the outwit.
>>E (JLA) Plastic Man is an effective harrying/flanking/support piece, whereas R Plastic Man requires one of my precious actions every time I want to do something with him.>>
Heh heh. Trade for Hawkman, and you get it back in spades :-)
>>But yeah, I like this 2nd String JLA, as it seems that they're under-utilized...at least in my neck of the woods. Still need to get a better understanding of how to best use Blue Beetle.>>
I was trying him for a while, as E gets good stats, a range 8 attack, and toughness (and, ya know, he's Blue Beetle...), but I kept doing dumb things with him like leaving him on a roof somewhere and then not be able to get him off in time to do anything. If only he started with L/C and got force blast a couple clicks in...
-Peter
malchyor
02/12/2003, 12:50
great battle report guys!
i like the teams and i like what you did with them.
the only thing i can't figure out is why neither of you chose to use a character with invulnerability or impervious.
on one side, only bullseye had a chance to get through it (making him your first target), and on the other side only aquaman could do enough damage himself, and that left plastic man to have had any chance of helping out scoring past the basic 2 damage needed to get past that level of damage reduction.
against either team just two decent shots would have taken away the fire from the other team. i don't normally play with brick-type characters, but it seems in these cases it would really have cleaned up.
comments?
Redleg wrote:
>> I disagree that QS should be benched.>>
I've never been real impressed with QS. Yeah, he's cheap and fast, but he can't really do anything when he gets there--E can go real fast, get to a medic, get punched for 1, and become mostly useless immediately. Whenever I end up having points I think about spending on QS, I generally figure a way to get another cheap flier instead--they are usually just as good at getting back field units if necessary, and can carry stuff too.
>>He helps me force the opponent to fight in two directions-important since I need to keep Bullseye alive. Also, his team ability gives my team so much more flexibility. If I swapped him and R Operative out, the extra DB would only be able to mimic the Hydra ability.>>
True, true. Maybe R Avalanche instead? Only costs 1 extra point (easy to find in such a team), still has Brotherhood to mimic, and can throw up barriers to protect Bullseye.
-Peter
Malchyor, brick type characters are always a big threat to my team. Fortunately, in a 200 pt brawl, there can be only so many Invulnerable characters.
I didn't take any brick characters because it wasn't in the spirit of my team.
What I like about my team, is that the common debate (Better to start first or second) is irrelevant. I can always commit my goons first, which gives me an idea how I want to employ Bullseye when a potential brick moves out.
Your reasoning is exactly why Man Bat was my first target: He could drop Aqua into smashing range of my only hitter. Fortunately, Aqua can't take as much punishment as he delivers. Some rapid fire from well trained AIM Agents along with a hefty dose of poison can shut him down.
Good thoughts.
Originally posted by bakija
True, true. Maybe R Avalanche instead? Only costs 1 extra point (easy to find in such a team), still has Brotherhood to mimic, and can throw up barriers to protect Bullseye.
Now that's a great suggestion. I had never considered it. Again...this brawl is helping me be a better player/team builder everyday.
the itsy bit
02/12/2003, 15:18
well he's just a mediocre fig without HSS (which he should have gotten), But I like the E and V versions because of the flurry.
24/28 points isn't that expensive and he moves for free 12+ range.
QS is very usefull to take out medics and the like (shield snipers !)
if your opponent takes actions to KO him they aren't using them for the more important battle !
just like happened here.
18 defence vs range (thanks to energy shield/deflection) makes him very hard to hit for the most figs and if they base him he can flurry them for a total of (2+2) 4 clicks.
Circular
02/15/2003, 20:35
Originally posted by Redleg
V AIM Agent x2
R Hydra Op
R Hydra Medic
R Quicksilver
Red Skull
E Bullseye
V Doombot
R Vulture
This has been referred to elsewhere in the thread, but I wanted to draw out the discussion a bit more, if possible...
What would your strategy have been had Xian fielded a team using an Invulnerable hitter? What comes to my eye is using the Doombot to haul Bullseye about while Vulture moves one of the Hydra team members. Those four would then form a kind of "strike team" capable of inflicting a click of damage to the target with fair reliability (since the Doombot and the Hydra member would be punching up Bullseye's attack value). The rest of the team could then be tasked with dealing with whatever other forces Xian might have felt.
I ask because I also enjoy using thematic "leader and grunts" teams of this sort in 200 point games, and have found that teams using a single large, dangerous piece (rookie Ultron, for example) are one of my key problems. I am thus hoping to benefit from the shared wisdom of a fellow "grunt squad" player. ;)
Circular
Here are my tactics and thoughts in dealing w/ heavy hitters versus my grunt squad...
It will be impossible for that heavy team to have more figures than our grunt team. This means that he will have to commit his figures before mine (as I can send up my 2-3 grunts and then his turn he advances his army).
Of course this tactic doesn't work if the person you're playing stalls and refuses to come forward.
Once the forces are forward, my goals become:
1) Lock the hitter up w/smaller figs
2) Shoot and move w/ my hitter (Bullseye), and pushing when necessary. Note than my Doombot (his taxi) has free movement, meaning I have greater chances of moving him to a medic.
3) Try to force his team to push the invuln character (taking them to toughness or losing invuln altogether)
Vulture is Red Skull's taxi and they go to poison anybody in his area of influence (in this game, Aquaman).
What are your tactics?
Circular
02/16/2003, 20:01
I usually play SHIELD squads, with Nick Fury as the center of the team, backed up by SHIELD Snipers and a Mandroid or two for mobility. Since no one on the squad boasts a damage rating higher than 2, I have taken to making sure that there is an outwitter on the squad--usually (R) Black Panther for the free movement, although I have been experimenting with (E) Panther recently. The goal is to Outwit their defensive power and then hit them with Fury or a Sniper, repeating the process until they go down.
Of course, if something happens to Panther (and something usually does... ;) ), I have to use the SHIELD team ability to get through my target's defenses. That more or less ends the turn, and places all my eggs in a basket with a respectable-but-unspectacular attack value of 9 or 10.
Overall, I have to say that your method does have a key advantage. Not relying on Outwit makes the team less vulnerable to having the Outwitter rendered useless, either through being pounded or being unable to see the target.
Originally posted by Redleg
Vulture is Red Skull's taxi and they go to poison anybody in his area of influence (in this game, Aquaman).
Out of curiosity, have you found the poison to work reliably? I have always been concerned about the people that have Poison at the front of their dials; it seems like the opponent would likely just hit them and spin them right past it. Perhaps the Skull's Mastermind alleviates this problem?
Circular
Skull's mastermind helps a great deal towards his survivability. In most games, Skull goes untouched. Bullseye's RCE is a juicier Outwit target.
In my team...Bullseye is the clear heavy hitter. He shapes the battlefield since he can be taxied for free up to 8 squares...and then still reliably pop somebody for 3 damage.
At a lower level, Skull does the same thing. Vulture can drop him off adjacent to somebody and the threat of poison forces the other player to react to Skull (perfect because it takes some focus off of Bullseye). Skull's poison almost becomes a decoy that actually does damage.
The greatest use for poison so far for me? Removing Impervious.
BTW..I'd love to play an online Hydra vs Shield fight. Let me know.
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