Colossals and LOF Questions

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

I have a few questions regarding Colossal figures and LOF.

I have created a diagram to show my questions in a visual manner. Click on the thumbnail to view larger version.

I know an elevated character can't draw LOF to Fin Fang Foom if there is elevated blocking terrain between the two. But I have more questions:

Key:
White squares: Clear Ground Terrain
Brown squares: Grounded Blocking Terrain
Red squares: Elevated Clear Terrain
Green rectangle: Fin Fang Foom
Blue circle: Hawkeye
Black circle: Captain America
Grey circle: War Machine
Pink circle: Scarlet Witch
Yellow circle: Iron Man

Who can and cannot draw LOF to Fin Fang Foom?

Also, if Fin Fang Foom is in Hindering Terrain, and a character's LOF crosses the hindering terrain, does Fin Fang receive the +1 to his Defense Value? What if the character is on elevated? Does FFF still get that bonus?

[Drunky]

For scenario Fin Fang Foom :
"Characters and terrain do not block or impose the hindering terrain modifier on lines of fire drawn to or from Fin Fang Foom."
(from the FFF rules)

So all characters would have a clear LOF to him, and there would be no hindering terrain modifier.


For part of a force FFF :
"Fin Fang Foom ignores the effects of elevated terrain and hindering terrain for movement purposes, and when he ends a move, all parts of his base are considered to be in clear, grounded terrain."
(from the FFF rules)
"COLOSSAL SIZE (non-optional) This character blocks lines of fire to other colossal characters. A character with this ability ignores the effects of hindering, elevated, and outdoor blocking terrain on movement. This character can’t be knocked back and can
make ranged combat attacks when adjacent to opposing characters. This ability can’t be countered or canceled."
(from the rulebook)

FFF basically follows the normal rules for line of fire, keeping in mind that he always occupies grounded clear terrain (unlike giants, if an elevated character attacks him, the line of fire would be drawn from elevated to grounded, which is pretty stupid if you ask me - unless there's an online ruling I'm not aware of ? I hope so...)
So (unless said ruling exists, please somebody...), nobody in your example has a clear line of fire to him.

The hindering terrain modifier would apply only if the line of fire crosses a square of hindering terrain that isn't on one of the squares FFF occupies. If the line of fire was drawn from elevated to FFF, no hindering terrain modifier would apply.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Drunky, thanks a bunch. Would rep you, but the forums won't let me until I spread some love around to other people.

I was speaking rhetorically, as I already knew the answers to my questions. But I wanted confirmation that I was correct. I used him the other day as my force against a 1,200 Green Lantern team, and these scenarios came up.

Now that I have confirmation from another person I'll point this out to my friends.

However, one more question... Fin Fang Foom, or any Colossal for that matter, cannot end it's movement in Blocking Terrain, correct? Not even part of their dial base? This is the way I understand it. He only ignores elevated and hindering terrain on movement, not blocking. However, being a flier, he can fly over outdoor grounded blocking terrain.

[Drunky]

Drunky, thanks a bunch. Would rep you, but the forums won't let me until I spread some love around to other people.

Whatever, it's the intention that counts...

I was speaking rhetorically, as I already knew the answers to my questions. But I wanted confirmation that I was correct. I used him the other day as my force against a 1,200 Green Lantern team, and these scenarios came up.

Now that I have confirmation from another person I'll point this out to my friends.

I kinda knew you did know already.
(and like I said I find it ridiculous that colossal characters don't have the same rules as giants for elevated to grounded lines of fire, but that's just my opinion... Somebody ? Please ? )

However, one more question... Fin Fang Foom, or any Colossal for that matter, cannot end it's movement in Blocking Terrain, correct? Not even part of their dial base? This is the way I understand it. He only ignores elevated and hindering terrain on movement, not blocking. However, being a flier, he can fly over outdoor grounded blocking terrain.

Regarding part of a force FFF, I'd say you're right. Being a flyer, he can also move over elevated blocking terrain (as a flyer, he just ignores outdoor blocking terrain as a whole), but not stop on it, of course.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

I have another LOF question, but this one doesn't involve colossal figures.

I have added a diagram to layout my question.

White square: Clear Ground Terrain
Red square: Elevated Terrain
Grey: Hindering Terrain
Green Dot: Avalanche
Blue Dot: Captain America
Yellow Dot: Iron Man

When Avalanche targets Iron Man, IM gets a +1 DV for being in Hindering.
When Avalanche targets Captain America there is no DV modifier.

However, if Captain America were to attack Avalanche, would Avalanche get a +1 DV for Hindering Terrain (the square in front of Cap)?

I would say he would not. I would say it's a two-way street, and it's a clear LOF both ways.

This came up in a game, and a player argued that since Cap is grounded, his LOF would be affected by the Hindering Terrain in front of him when drawing LOF to Avalanche.

This isn't a rhetorical question, as I'm not quite sure. The FF Rulebook clearly states that when an elevated figure draws LOF to a grounded figure, that a hindering terrain modifier does not apply, unless the the grounded fig is standing directly in hindering terrain (such as Iron Man). But it doesn't, unless I missed it, state the same for grounded targeting elevated.

I believe it's a two-way street, both clear LOF between Cap and Avalanche. Is that correct? This will settle a dispute in my gaming group.

[Harpua]

For part of a force FFF :
"Fin Fang Foom ignores the effects of elevated terrain and hindering terrain for movement purposes, and when he ends a move, all parts of his base are considered to be in clear, grounded terrain."
(from the FFF rules)
"COLOSSAL SIZE (non-optional) This character blocks lines of fire to other colossal characters. A character with this ability ignores the effects of hindering, elevated, and outdoor blocking terrain on movement. This character can’t be knocked back and can
make ranged combat attacks when adjacent to opposing characters. This ability can’t be countered or canceled."
(from the rulebook)

FFF basically follows the normal rules for line of fire, keeping in mind that he always occupies grounded clear terrain (unlike giants, if an elevated character attacks him, the line of fire would be drawn from elevated to grounded, which is pretty stupid if you ask me - unless there's an online ruling I'm not aware of ? I hope so...)
So (unless said ruling exists, please somebody...), nobody in your example has a clear line of fire to him.
You are interpreting that line incorrectly.

There's nothing in that line you highlighted to indicate that it does anything to alter how LoF of elevated to colossal is drawn.

That line is there to cover the fact that he has a large base and would otherwise have a hard time of keeping his base on the same elevation.

Besides when it is LoF from elevated to a grounded giant/colossal that grounded giant colossal also can have its base in clear grounded terrain and you draw LoF the same way.


EDIT: Oh and it was stated long ago that LoF for colossals does work like giants. It is just a shame the rulebook doesn't say it.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

You are interpreting that line incorrectly.

There's nothing in that line you highlighted to indicate that it does anything to alter how LoF of elevated to colossal is drawn.

That line is there to cover the fact that he has a large base and would otherwise have a hard time of keeping his base on the same elevation.

Besides when it is LoF from elevated to a grounded giant/colossal that grounded giant colossal also can have its base in clear grounded terrain and you draw LoF the same way.


EDIT: Oh and it was stated long ago that LoF for colossals does work like giants. It is just a shame the rulebook doesn't say it.

OK, to clarify, since that means I'm wrong on LOF:

For part of a force Fin Fang Foom:
"Fin Fang Foom ignores the effects of elevated terrain and hindering terrain for movement purposes, and when he ends a move, all parts of his base are considered to be in clear, grounded terrain."

The above rule only applies to movement, and not LOF. So FFF gets the hindering terrain DV bonus is it applies, even from attackers from elevated terrain, just like Giants.


Fantastic Four Rulebook; HeroClix Combat and Special Abilities; Damage Abilities; Giant-Size (non-optional); Ranged combat attacks; pg. 17
Characters with the :g-starburst: symbol do not block line of fire to or from this character. This character and a character on elevated terrain draw line of fire and make ranged combat attacks against each other as if they were both elevated, but terrain effects (such as the hindering terrain modifier) still apply normally.


So looking at the diagram that I have at the bottom of this post:

Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Iron Man can attack and be attacked by Fin Fang Foom.

War Machine and Captain America, however, can't attack or be attacked by Fin Fang Foom. War Machine's LOF is blocked by Blocking Terrain. Captain America's LOF is blocked by Elevated Terrain.

Are all the above declarations faithful?

Also, regarding my question regarding LOF from standard figures on elevated to grounded. I know the hindering terrain modifier only applies if the target is standing in hindering terrain. But is it a two way street? Does the grounded figure also have a clear LOF? Or does the hindering terrain in front of Cap (in the other diagram) give the elevated figure a hindering terrain DV bonus? I believe it's a two-way street, they both of clear LOF, but want to clarify.

[MadSmokerVGreen]

isn't blocking terrain that colossals step on destroyed, or is that just objects?

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

isn't blocking terrain that colossals step on destroyed, or is that just objects?

It's just objects. Also, Colossals can't move through indoor blocking terrain, unless a power or ability allows such a move.

[Drunky]

EDIT: Oh and it was stated long ago that LoF for colossals does work like giants. It is just a shame the rulebook doesn't say it.

Thanks a bunch for the info.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Harpua again."

...

@ VGA d1sc1pL3 : sorry about the confusion, I should have checked things a little more cautiously before answering

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

@ VGA d1sc1pL3 : sorry about the confusion, I should have checked things a little more cautiously before answering

No sweat. The fault lies on my shoulders. I should have read the Fin Fang Foom rules a bit more carefully. You, Harpua, normalview, and many here have pretty much been mentors to me.

Since Colossal's share the same rules as Giants for LOF then the below would be correct?

So looking at the diagram that I have at the bottom of this post:

Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Iron Man can attack and be attacked by Fin Fang Foom.

War Machine and Captain America, however, can't attack or be attacked by Fin Fang Foom. War Machine's LOF is blocked by Blocking Terrain. Captain America's LOF is blocked by Elevated Terrain.

Are all the above declarations faithful?

Also, regarding my question regarding LOF from standard figures on elevated to grounded. I know the hindering terrain modifier only applies if the target is standing in hindering terrain. But is it a two way street? Does the grounded figure also have a clear LOF? Or does the hindering terrain in front of Cap (in the other diagram) give the elevated figure a hindering terrain DV bonus? I believe it's a two-way street, they both of clear LOF, but want to clarify.

[Drunky]

No sweat. The fault lies on my shoulders. I should have read the Fin Fang Foom rules a bit more carefully. You, Harpua, normalview, and many here have pretty much been mentors to me.

Since Colossal's share the same rules as Giants for LOF then the below would be correct?

So looking at the diagram that I have at the bottom of this post:

Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Iron Man can attack and be attacked by Fin Fang Foom.

War Machine and Captain America, however, can't attack or be attacked by Fin Fang Foom. War Machine's LOF is blocked by Blocking Terrain. Captain America's LOF is blocked by Elevated Terrain.

Are all the above declarations faithful?

Yes.

Also, regarding my question regarding LOF from standard figures on elevated to grounded. I know the hindering terrain modifier only applies if the target is standing in hindering terrain. But is it a two way street? Does the grounded figure also have a clear LOF? Or does the hindering terrain in front of Cap (in the other diagram) give the elevated figure a hindering terrain DV bonus? I believe it's a two-way street, they both of clear LOF, but want to clarify.

It's a two-way street. And, as you said, the hindering terrain modifier only applies if the target itself is in hindering terrain. Regarding your second diagram :
- they all have clear line of fire to each other (barring Stealth and the likes, of course);
- if Avalanche attacks Iron Man, the hindering terrain modifier applies (because Iron Man is in hindering terrain) ;
- if Avalanche attacks Cap', the HT modifier doesn't apply (because a line of fire drawn from elevated to grounded - and vice-versa - ignores grounded HT unless the target itself is in HT) ;
- if Iron Man attacks Avalanche, the HT modifier doesn't apply (Avalanche isn't in HT) ;
- if Cap' attacks Avalanche, the HT modifier doesn't apply (same reason as above).

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Thanks a bunch! This will help out a ton.

[vamroc]

To me the stupid part is that a Giant may block LoF to and from a colossal WTF the average Colossal is like 40-100 ft how is a 15 foot guy supposed to block LoF to charactor whose 25-85 ft taller than him.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

To me the stupid part is that a Giant may block LoF to and from a colossal WTF the average Colossal is like 40-100 ft how is a 15 foot guy supposed to block LoF to charactor whose 25-85 ft taller than him.

Sterling point chap; reputation given. I have mused over this as well. An erratum would be favorable.

[normalview]

To me the stupid part is that a Giant may block LoF to and from a colossal WTF the average Colossal is like 40-100 ft how is a 15 foot guy supposed to block LoF to charactor whose 25-85 ft taller than him.

Says who?

Giant Man (depending on the version) can grow to about 60 feet.

Dark Phoenix, by comparison, is normal Jean Grey size (say 5' 6"). Sure, the Phoenix force effect surrounding her is pretty huge, but you aren't going to shoot at the bird's head... your going to try to shoot Jean in the middle and she may or may not be standing on the ground when she's busy destroying civilizations.

Rather than try to say, "Okay Colossal X can be see over Giant Y, but Colossal A is about the same size as Giant B so that's out," it is easier just to have them all follow the same LOF rules.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

...but you aren't going to shoot at the bird's head... your going to try to shoot Jean in the middle ...

Not me, I possess über-micro. I'm going... *BOOM!* Headshot! Pure Pwn4g3 baby!

[Harpua]

Not me, I possess über-micro. I'm going... *BOOM!* Headshot! Pure Pwn4g3 baby!

At shooting birds I am a beaut. There is no bird I cannot shoot in the eye, in the ear, in the teeth, or in the fingers.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

At shooting birds I am a beaut. There is no bird I cannot shoot in the eye, in the ear, in the teeth, or in the fingers.

LOL! Me too. I can even shoot it's fins.