Lunge

[KO Bossy]

The card says that as long as this character has Leap/Climb or CCE, when it is given an action, but before it makes a close combat attack, it can break away automatically and move up to 2 squares. I get that it is like mini-Charge. Since it says you can break away automatically, not that you just move up to 2 squares, for it to work, do you have to be adjacent to someone? Or, regardless of where you are, are you able to just move up to 2 squares and then hit?

[dariusq]

Lunge
5pts

Prerequisites: Close Combat Expert or Leap/Climb

Choose a Character
When the character is given an action, but before it makes a close combat attack, it can break away automatically and move up to 2 squares.

You don't have to be next to someone in order to use Lunge. The card is just saying that if your were next to someone at the start of the action you would break away automatically and thus be free to move.

Interesting to note: the card says before being "given an action, but before it makes a close combat attack". This means you would not have L/C available since that only actives on move actions which do not have a followup close combat attack. Furthermore it's been ruled the attack need only be legal after the character has been moved. This creates something of a paradox when Lunging into CCE because unless you started the action adjacent to the target it would not otherwise be possible to declare the power action needed to use CCE.

[Drunky]

The card says that as long as this character has Leap/Climb or CCE, when it is given an action, but before it makes a close combat attack, it can break away automatically and move up to 2 squares. I get that it is like mini-Charge. Since it says you can break away automatically, not that you just move up to 2 squares, for it to work, do you have to be adjacent to someone? Or, regardless of where you are, are you able to just move up to 2 squares and then hit?

The second one. Declare your action (even if it's not legal at the time, like using CCE while you're not adjacent to anyone), then move 2 squares, then make your close combat attack.

EDIT : too slow ; however, the second part of Leap/Climb (i.e. close combat attacking a character on a different elevation) could be used (unless you're actually using CCE, of course). ;)

[RedDragon]

now you don't have to have LC or CCE showing on the dail to use the feat right? it doesn't say this in the text, that when you use LC or CCE.......and so on.

[KO Bossy]

Thanks a lot guys.

[Drunky]

now you don't have to have LC or CCE showing on the dail to use the feat right? it doesn't say this in the text, that when you use LC or CCE.......and so on.

You must have CCE or L/C showing on the dial (or a special power granting the use of either one of these powers) to be able to use the feat, as these powers are prerecquisites for the feat.

From the rulebook :
"In order for a character to use a feat assigned to it, all prerequisites for the feat must be printed on the character’s base and or visible on its combat dial through the stat slot."

[KO Bossy]

Also I'm reading a few other related topics. People seem to be saying things like "you can Lunge and then Charge" or something. Is that true? Because I wouldn't think so.

[spaffler]

Also I'm reading a few other related topics. People seem to be saying things like "you can Lunge and then Charge" or something. Is that true? Because I wouldn't think so.

I believe you can, because Charge is the action you are declaring, which also ends in a Close Combat Action. so if my figure has 10 speed with charge, 3 damage with CCE, he can lunge two (declaring charge as the action) then charge 5 more spaces. he cannot use CCE because of the Charge, but it is showing on the Dial so it is allowed.

At least that is how i understand it :)

[Drunky]

Also I'm reading a few other related topics. People seem to be saying things like "you can Lunge and then Charge" or something. Is that true? Because I wouldn't think so.

Well, actually, that would be "you can Charge and then Lunge". But yes it's valid - assuming you meet the prerecquisite for the feat, of course.

Take V Ulik (who has both Charge and CCE on his first click), who's been assigned Lunge.
He's given a power action to activate Charge ; he moves half his speed value, and then is given a close combat action as a free action : at this point, Lunge activates (he's given an action that leads to a close combat attack - a close combat action always leads to a close combat attack - so he can use Lunge), he moves two more squares, and then makes his close combat attack.

[spaffler]

Well, actually, that would be "you can Charge and then Lunge". But yes it's valid - assuming you meet the prerecquisite for the feat, of course.

Take V Ulik (who has both Charge and CCE on his first click), who's been assigned Lunge.
He's given a power action to activate Charge ; he moves half his speed value, and then is given a close combat action as a free action : at this point, Lunge activates (he's given an action that leads to a close combat attack - a close combat action always leads to a close combat attack - so he can use Lunge), he moves two more squares, and then makes his close combat attack.

I think this is actually correct, but it does raise a question, if you lunge after charge can you use CCE?

[Drunky]

I think this is actually correct, but it does raise a question, if you lunge after charge can you use CCE?

Nope. Charge gives you a close combat action as a free action. CCE recquires a power action to activate, so you can never use Charge + CCE.

[spaffler]

Nope. Charge gives you a close combat action as a free action. CCE recquires a power action to activate, so you can never use Charge + CCE.

Thats what i thought. Lunge has always been one of those cards that everyone uses, but it also raises the most questions. i use it for Leap/Climbers mostly, so i dont know most of the CCE rules surrounding it.

[KO Bossy]

Oh man I'm still sorta confused. Lemme try to use my own example on this to explain it.

Super Skrull Avengers is on his Charge/CCE click. So he Charges in (a power action) and when it comes time for his free close combat action from Charge, that action triggers the action necessary for Lunge to activate (since it says it requires "an" action). So just before he makes his close combat action, he's able to move up to 2 more, and then make his actual close combat attack. Correct?

After reading all this I'm kinda tired of the words "close combat".

[Drunky]

Super Skrull Avengers is on his Charge/CCE click. So he Charges in (a power action) and when it comes time for his free close combat action from Charge, that action triggers the action necessary for Lunge to activate (since it says it requires "an" action). So just before he makes his close combat action, he's able to move up to 2 more, and then make his actual close combat attack. Correct?

Correct. :cool:
Sorry if it seems confusing, but the actual timing and wording is very important in such cases.

[KO Bossy]

Correct. :cool:
Sorry if it seems confusing, but the actual timing and wording is very important in such cases.

Alright thanks a lot man.

[zero_cochrane]

Interesting to note: the card says before being "given an action, but before it makes a close combat attack". This means you would not have L/C available since that only actives on move actions which do not have a followup close combat attack.
There are some transporters with Leap/Climb, such as E Spider-Man (Sinister), REV Ghost Rider (Fantastic Forces), Uncle Sam (Crisis), and Vigilante (Justice League). They could use move-and-attack (a move action) to benefit from leap/Climb and Lunge.

This would work best with Uncle Sam - he has Leap/Climb on his opening click, and Give Me Your Tired, Your Poor can help to make up for the -2 penalty to his :a-fist: due to using move-and-attack. Using Lunge, he can move twelve squares to attack somebody!

[dariusq]

too slow ; however, the second part of Leap/Climb (i.e. close combat attacking a character on a different elevation) could be used (unless you're actually using CCE, of course). ;)

Actually, you could use the elevation portion of L/C with CCE since it is a passive effect of having the power and requires no action to activate. Deviousness!:devious:

[Harpua]

Actually, you could use the elevation portion of L/C with CCE since it is a passive effect of having the power and requires no action to activate. Deviousness!:devious:

This is incorrect.

CCE is a POWER action.

The elevation portion of L/C only applies to CLOSE COMBAT actions.

[Harpua]

This is incorrect.

CCE is a POWER action.

The elevation portion of L/C only applies to CLOSE COMBAT actions.

From the PAC:
"LEAP/CLIMB When you give this character a move action, it automatically breaks away
and ignores the effects of characters, hindering terrain, elevated terrain, and outdoor blocking
terrain on movement (but it can’t end its movement on blocking terrain). When you give this
character a close combat action, it can target a character regardless of the target’s elevation."

"CLOSE COMBAT EXPERT Give this character a power action. It makes a close
combat attack against a single opposing target character; modify this character’s damage value by
+2 for the attack. This power can’t be used when using an object as a weapon."

[imaleximsweet]

question to tack onto this;

do you HAVE to charge adjacent to an enemy before lunging to another?

the way i understand it is that you can move your halved speed stop then lunge two more.

the way some judge ruled it is you move your halved speed stop adjecent to an opponent and THEN lunge to a DIFFERENT target

i did not argue at the time i just want to double check...

[Smudge]

No adjacency is required to use Lunge. The judge was incorrect.

[Harpua]

question to tack onto this;

do you HAVE to charge adjacent to an enemy before lunging to another?
No

the way i understand it is that you can move your halved speed stop then lunge two more.
Yes.

the way some judge ruled it is you move your halved speed stop adjecent to an opponent and THEN lunge to a DIFFERENT target
He ruled incorrectly.

You need not be able to make a close combat attack where you are to use Lunge...be it from a stand still or during Charge.

He's probably thinking that in order to Charge, you must be able to move to a square from which you can legally attack. Many make this mistake, but it is incorrect for a couple of reasons. The easiest to point out is that it only says anything along those lines in the Running Shot power. Charge has absolutely nothing of the sort.

Or the guy could just be a moron.

i did not argue at the time i just want to double check...
Your loss.

[philentqiller]

Kick that judge in the junk imaleximsweet. Steve should know that rule by now.

[RedDragon]

You must have CCE or L/C showing on the dial (or a special power granting the use of either one of these powers) to be able to use the feat, as these powers are prerecquisites for the feat.

From the rulebook :
"In order for a character to use a feat assigned to it, all prerequisites for the feat must be printed on the character’s base and or visible on its combat dial through the stat slot."

thats not my question read the post closely please. its asking does one or the other have to actually be showing inside the L it the time of said given actions?

[Maraud]

thats not my question read the post closely please. its asking does one or the other have to actually be showing inside the L it the time of said given actions?

You must have CCE or L/C showing on the dial (or a special power granting the use of either one of these powers) to be able to use the feat, as these powers are prerecquisites for the feat.

From the rulebook :
"In order for a character to use a feat assigned to it, all prerequisites for the feat must be printed on the character’s base and or visible on its combat dial through the stat slot."


as he stated it is a pre-req.
Like all feats that have a pre-req the pre-req need to be showing on the dial at the time of use.
Like he stated above.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Here is a great example of what can be done while using Lunge:

My figure has a movement of 10. My target is 7 squares away. We'll call him Target A. I declare I'm using a Charge + Flurry combo, and using Lunge. Charge would allow me to move 5 squares. I also declare I'm using Maneuver at the end of attack. Then I also declare I'm using Vault at the very end of the Close Combat Action, which would come after I resolve both of my Free Close Combat Attacks via Flurry.

But before I actually begin my Charge, declare I'm using Rip It Up at this point, because it states I must do it before I begin a move as part of a move, power, or free action. Charge is a Power Action.

My character is now holding a Light Object. I now move my 5 squares for my Charge. I am now two squares shy of my target, so this is when my Lunge kicks in. I move 2 squares. Now I use my first Flurry attack against Target A using the Light Object. Resolve the attack. Now I use Maneuver to reposition Target A.

Now I want to attack another character that is 2 squares away from me; Target B. So I'll use Lunge again and then do my second Free Close Combat Attack granted by Flurry.

I also declare I'm using Maneuver at the end of the second Flurry attack.

Resolve attack. Then reposition Target B using Maneuver.

Now that my Close Combat Action is resolved, I can now use Vault to reposition my figure. Place an Action Token on figure. His turn is done.

[Quebbster]

But before I actually begin my Charge, declare I'm using Rip It Up at this point, because it states I must do it before I begin a move as part of a move, power, or free action. Charge is a Power Action.
Fixed it for you.

[Harpua]

now you don't have to have LC or CCE showing on the dail to use the feat right? it doesn't say this in the text, that when you use LC or CCE.......and so on.
You must have CCE or L/C showing on the dial (or a special power granting the use of either one of these powers) to be able to use the feat, as these powers are prerecquisites for the feat.

From the rulebook :
"In order for a character to use a feat assigned to it, all prerequisites for the feat must be printed on the character’s base and or visible on its combat dial through the stat slot."
thats not my question read the post closely please. its asking does one or the other have to actually be showing inside the L it the time of said given actions?
How on Earth does Drunky's answer not answer that question?

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Fixed it for you.

Oops, thanks for the fix!

[RedDragon]

for the last time !!!!! i'm not asking about pre-reg's or if i can assign the feat. ok ex BT you have to have perplex & outwit to assign the feat. but only perplex needs to be actually showing ( or som outside source icwo..) to use the card for the mass perplex. i know all the pre-reg's of the feat. i'm asking when you make a action to make a lunge. okay ex now i meet the pre-reg's of the pre-reg's. now my dial is showning somthing like this. charge,superstrength,toughness,outwit.can i lunge then,or do i have to wait until later on deeper into my dail either LC or CCE is actually showing to then use lunge.

[Drunky]

for the last time !!!!! i'm not asking about pre-reg's or if i can assign the feat.

Well, yes, I got it the first time.
If you had read my previous post, you'd have noticed that the part of the rulebook I quoted refers to using a feat, not assigning one.

:tired:

EDIT : Brilliant Tactician is obviously an exception, as its very text indicates...

[Harpua]

Well, yes, I got it the first time.

QFT



Wasn't someone saying something about reading things closely? :grin:




EDIT: It really is no different than any other feat since they were introduced. Going back to the beginning...you can't use Automatic Regeneration without Regenration showing. You can't use Pounce without Leap/Climb showing.

[Dikarika]

I'm digging up this thread to discuss lunge timing and implications.

"When the character is given an action, but before it makes a close combat attack, it can break away automatically and move up to 2 squares."

OK.

Earlier in this thread it was said you cannot call a charge action, then lunge (netting a free breakaway, perhaps), then charging (half distance, natch), then attacking.

I don't see where the wording of the card explicitly states this.

It says "When the character is given an action, but before it makes a close combat attack..."

According to that alone, your power action to activate charge can activate the lunge, mainly because charge will eventually end with a CCA. The card does not say "just prior to" or "immediately before".

Is this way off base? Am I missing an errata somewhere?

[imaleximsweet]

I'm digging up this thread to discuss lunge timing and implications.

"When the character is given an action, but before it makes a close combat attack, it can break away automatically and move up to 2 squares."

OK.

Earlier in this thread it was said you cannot call a charge action, then lunge (netting a free breakaway, perhaps), then charging (half distance, natch), then attacking.

I don't see where the wording of the card explicitly states this.

It says "When the character is given an action, but before it makes a close combat attack..."

According to that alone, your power action to activate charge can activate the lunge, mainly because charge will eventually end with a CCA. The card does not say "just prior to" or "immediately before".

Is this way off base? Am I missing an errata somewhere?

emphasis mine.

the bolded portion is the part where the issue seems to stem.

Yes of course the charge eventually leads to the attack, but this has been more or less intrepretted word for word in that "before it makes..."
is to be read as RIGHT before.

i am not saying your logic is false. in fact i agree with your logic 100%. but if we stayed with that logic then theoretcally (this is an extreme example) you could lunge your two spaces at the begining of your turn, perplex up anything you wanted (whereas before the perplexer couldnt see him) tk the figure next to an opponent THEN make the attack. because you did lunge before the attack was made.

again this is a silly yet extreme example, but i feel it falls under the lines of lunge then charge then attack

the propper series of events is ____ then ____ then lunge then attack
the bolded portion never changes

[Dikarika]

I get what you are after alex, but charge is a "closed loop example".

Once you begin a charge action (the power action to activate charge), you must only move, then attack. It is a single action. You can't stop mid charge, perplex, then continue.

[Silver Lantern]

for the last time !!!!! i'm not asking about pre-reg's or if i can assign the feat. ok ex BT you have to have perplex & outwit to assign the feat. but only perplex needs to be actually showing ( or som outside source icwo..) to use the card for the mass perplex. i know all the pre-reg's of the feat. i'm asking when you make a action to make a lunge. okay ex now i meet the pre-reg's of the pre-reg's. now my dial is showning somthing like this. charge,superstrength,toughness,outwit.can i lunge then,or do i have to wait until later on deeper into my dail either LC or CCE is actually showing to then use lunge.

Okay, lets all be cool like 3 little Fonzies here. :grin:

Red, its becoming quite clear that you don't understand or are not aware that for you to USE a feat, the prerequisites MUST be showing on the dial at the moment you are using the feat. For example, to use Lunge, you MUST have CCE or L/C visible on the dial at the time you are using the Lunge. Otherwise, you cannot use it.

It doesn't matter if you get L/C or CCE later on, or had it and now lost it, in such a case you would not be able to use the feat. All feats work like this with the exception of Brilliant Tactician (that I am aware of).

It's no big deal, you're not the first to misunderstand this and you won't be the last. Hope this helps,

SL

[markrochip]

Does anyone know how Lunge would work with the Move and Attack ability?

EDIT: Ooops! Nevermind, found it in this thread. Sounds pretty awesome!

[imaleximsweet]

I get what you are after alex, but charge is a "closed loop example".

Once you begin a charge action (the power action to activate charge), you must only move, then attack. It is a single action. You can't stop mid charge, perplex, then continue.

ah, i see what you mean... and i get what you are saying about being able to lunge first..

i cant provide a better example. (wish i could) i just know that the way it was ruled was that the lunge had to happen directly before the CCA.

I thing this was GD intent (not a direct quote, but paraphrased off of what the old arbiter said) as in "lunging to attack" kinda thing

[Harpua]

I get what you are after alex, but charge is a "closed loop example".

Once you begin a charge action (the power action to activate charge), you must only move, then attack. It is a single action. You can't stop mid charge, perplex, then continue.

Well, for one thing, you need to remember that it is the free close combat action granting the attack, not the power action.

[Maraud]

I get what you are after alex, but charge is a "closed loop example".

Once you begin a charge action (the power action to activate charge), you must only move, then attack. It is a single action. You can't stop mid charge, perplex, then continue.

but charge does not alway end up with a CCA.
Say u carge a character with Skrull TA or Shapechange.
If they make the roll when you declare your attack then the attack can not be made.
If there are no other characters/terrain to attack then you have used lunge incorrectly.

[Dikarika]

But that scenario would occur either way I used the charge, it wouldn't matter if it was before or after the charge.

Either way shape change would cause the same invalidation of the necessary CCA.

Wouldn't it?

[imaleximsweet]

But that scenario would occur either way I used the charge, it wouldn't matter if it was before or after the charge.

Either way shape change would cause the same invalidation of the necessary CCA.

Wouldn't it?


i attempted to type an answer and all i did was confuse myself... :cheeky:

i'm no help in this matter, you make a good argument, i wish i could help clarify this more...

[VanisherPunisher]

LUNGE
• To use this feat: (1) Announce the action the character will
take, even if it is not a legal action from its current position,
as long as it can be adjacent to an opposing character for
step 3. (2) Reposition the character from its current square
to another square up to 2 squares away. (3) Perform the
close combat attack.

There is no 2,5 where you can Charge. After the 2 square reposition you perform the close combat attack.

[Retrovector]

I have two questions about lunge I'm fairly certain my friends and I have been playing it wrong.

The first is, if you're in hindering terrain and want to lunge, does it become 1 square for movement?

Second is, can you lunge two squares away from your opponent and make the close combat attack? (while not being adjacent)

[VanisherPunisher]

I have two questions about lunge I'm fairly certain my friends and I have been playing it wrong.

The first is, if you're in hindering terrain and want to lunge, does it become 1 square for movement?

I think it stays as two. I think this particular case has been gone over a couple of times, so you could find a full explanation why if you use the search function.


Second is, can you lunge two squares away from your opponent and make the close combat attack? (while not being adjacent)

You cannot make close combat attacks if you are not adjacent. (Now I'm quite sure, that someone is going to point out an exception to this rule, but normally that's how it goes.)

[Dikarika]

There is no 2,5 where you can Charge. After the 2 square reposition you perform the close combat attack.

So, the players guide dictates it can't be done. It still seems like it should work based on card wording alone though.

But, the guide is law! Thanks for the heads up.

[Harpua]

There is no 2,5 where you can Charge. After the 2 square reposition you perform the close combat attack.
So, the players guide dictates it can't be done. It still seems like it should work based on card wording alone though.

But, the guide is law! Thanks for the heads up.

Well, keep in mind that the entry there has a copy/paste error. (It was copied from OOTS and not fully changed.)

The figure moves. It isn't placed.

I have two questions about lunge I'm fairly certain my friends and I have been playing it wrong.

The first is, if you're in hindering terrain and want to lunge, does it become 1 square for movement?
I think it stays as two. I think this particular case has been gone over a couple of times, so you could find a full explanation why if you use the search function.
It is most likely two.
Look at this thread (from yesterday morning ;)).
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263436


Second is, can you lunge two squares away from your opponent and make the close combat attack? (while not being adjacent)
You cannot make close combat attacks if you are not adjacent. (Now I'm quite sure, that someone is going to point out an exception to this rule, but normally that's how it goes.)
The exception would be giant characters, but for this question, you are correct.

[VanisherPunisher]

Well, keep in mind that the entry there has a copy/paste error. (It was copied from OOTS and not fully changed.)

The figure moves. It isn't placed.


Wel actually, that particular errata has no mention of placing or moving it just says to reposition. :p


It is most likely two.
Look at this thread (from yesterday morning ;)).
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263436


Yeah, I was quite sure that I had read that thing about lunge and hindering just recently but couldn't remember what thread it was in since it wasn't in this one.


The exception would be giant characters, but for this question, you are correct.

I should have remembered that. Still keep thinking that they are adjacent to two squares away occasionally. So with a giant you could lunge one square back and hit the character you lunged away from. That's seems like an idea worth trying sometime.