Giant & Colossal LOF Questions

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Sometimes I still struggle with LOF regarding Colossal and Giant figures. This should be my final questions and clear everything up for me.

I know, for the most part, Giants and Colossal figures use the same LOF rules.

I have attached an diagram image at the end of this post to demonstrate my questions.

Key: Red Squares: Elevated Terrain
Dots: Giant Figures 1-6

GIANT SIZE (non-optional) This character can’t be knocked back and ignores other characters’ Force Blast and Plasticity powers. This ability can’t be countered or canceled.
Close combat attacks. This character can make close combat attacks against elevated characters, even when this character is grounded. This character can also make close combat attacks against target opposing characters up to two squares away, even if a character (friendly or opposing) or an object occupies a square
between this character and the target; the attack can’t be made if blocking terrain, elevated terrain, or a wall would block an otherwise clear line of fire between this character and the target.
Ranged combat attacks. Characters with the :g-starburst: symbol do not block line of fire to or from this character. This character and a character on elevated terrain draw line of fire and make ranged combat attacks against each other as if they were both elevated, but terrain effects (such as the hindering terrain modifier) still apply normally.


Looking at the rules, can...

...Giants 1 & 2 can attack each other via Close or Ranged Combat Attacks? (By the rules, Giant 1 can definitely can make a Close Combat Attack Giant 2, but can Giant 2 do a CCA back? Ranged Attacks both ways is also for sure.)

...Giants 2, 3, & 4 can make Ranged Attacks against each other. (Appears this is legal as well under Ranged Combat Attacks section.)

...Giants 5 and 6 can only make Ranged Attacks? A Close Combat Attack is impossible due to elevated terrain? Or since they are both Giants and have a clear LOF could they make a CCA?

...Giant 2 and 6 can only make Close Combat Attacks, but not Ranged Attacks.

[normalview]

...Giants 1 & 2 can attack each other via Close or Ranged Combat Attacks? (By the rules, Giant 1 can definitely can make a Close Combat Attack Giant 2, but can Giant 2 do a CCA back? Ranged Attacks both ways is also for sure.)

Yes, they can. As you note, they can both make ranged attacks... which require LOF. And if LOF is established, then the close combat is also fine (because the elevated terrain is not blocking LOF, which would preclude the close combat).

...Giants 2, 3, & 4 can make Ranged Attacks against each other. (Appears this is legal as well under Ranged Combat Attacks section.)

Sure... a better question would be why wouldn't they be able to make a ranged combat attack? If you can't answer that question, you're probably good to go ;)

...Giants 5 and 6 can only make Ranged Attacks? A Close Combat Attack is impossible due to elevated terrain? Or since they are both Giants and have a clear LOF could they make a CCA?

Yes they can attack each other with close combat, but only because they are both Giants. If one was a :g-starburst: character, LOF could not be drawn between the characters and, without LOF, there is no extended close combat.

...Giant 2 and 6 can only make Close Combat Attacks, but not Ranged Attacks.

Why not? They aren't actually adjacent (they occupy two different elevations); sure Giant size allows them to make close combat attacks against each other when on different elevations... but it doesn't say anything about adjacency. If they aren't adajcent and LOF is clear, nothing prevents ranged combat.

Think of it this way: would you even ask this question if, say, 6 was a :g-starburst: character with Leap/Climb?

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Yes, they can. As you note, they can both make ranged attacks... which require LOF. And if LOF is established, then the close combat is also fine (because the elevated terrain is not blocking LOF, which would preclude the close combat).



Sure... a better question would be why wouldn't they be able to make a ranged combat attack? If you can't answer that question, you're probably good to go ;)



Yes they can attack each other with close combat, but only because they are both Giants. If one was a :g-starburst: character, LOF could not be drawn between the characters and, without LOF, there is no extended close combat.



Why not? They aren't actually adjacent (they occupy two different elevations); sure Giant size allows them to make close combat attacks against each other when on different elevations... but it doesn't say anything about adjacency. If they aren't adajcent and LOF is clear, nothing prevents ranged combat.

Think of it this way: would you even ask this question if, say, 6 was a :g-starburst: character with Leap/Climb?

You totally rock! Thanks for the help and the understanding. I have it down perfectly now! Rep given!

[VanisherPunisher]

I'm going to disagree with normalview here, since I don't think the rules actually support what he is saying.


...Giants 1 & 2 can attack each other via Close or Ranged Combat Attacks? (By the rules, Giant 1 can definitely can make a Close Combat Attack Giant 2, but can Giant 2 do a CCA back? Ranged Attacks both ways is also for sure.)


I would say no to this one. Why?
"This character can make close combat attacks against elevated characters, even when this character is grounded."
Nowhere does it say, that it can attack grounded characters from elevated.


...Giants 2, 3, & 4 can make Ranged Attacks against each other. (Appears this is legal as well under Ranged Combat Attacks section.)


2 can attack them both and they both can attack 2, but 3 and 4 can't attack each other. Giants don't ignore terrain for line of fire nor do they draw line of fire like they were on elevated unless the target is on elevated.


...Giants 5 and 6 can only make Ranged Attacks? A Close Combat Attack is impossible due to elevated terrain? Or since they are both Giants and have a clear LOF could they make a CCA?


Because they are both grounded their line of fire is blocked, so no attacking here.


...Giant 2 and 6 can only make Close Combat Attacks, but not Ranged Attacks.

2 can make only ranged combat attacks and he could target everyone else in that diagram. 6 can make a ranged or a close attack against 2 only.

If I am wrong and normalview is right I'll be happy, since that would make giants more playable.

[Harpua]

I'm not looking at the other answers before answering. (Ok, well, I started reading post #2 but disagreed with the first point, so I stopped reading.)
Looking at the rules, can...

...Giants 1 & 2 can attack each other via Close or Ranged Combat Attacks? (By the rules, Giant 1 can definitely can make a Close Combat Attack Giant 2, but can Giant 2 do a CCA back? Ranged Attacks both ways is also for sure.)
1 can attack 2 with close combat. 2 cannot attack 1 with close combat.

Range is ok both ways.

...Giants 2, 3, & 4 can make Ranged Attacks against each other. (Appears this is legal as well under Ranged Combat Attacks section.)
Yes
EDIT: Scratch that...VanisherPunisher's answer is correct. Brain fart.

...Giants 5 and 6 can only make Ranged Attacks? A Close Combat Attack is impossible due to elevated terrain? Or since they are both Giants and have a clear LOF could they make a CCA?
Actually, neither close nor ranged could be made either way.

...Giant 2 and 6 can only make Close Combat Attacks, but not Ranged Attacks.
Both close and ranged can be made. (EdIT: But close is only from 6 to 2) Furthermore, range could be made against other people further away, too.

[Harpua]

If I am wrong and normalview is right I'll be happy, since that would make giants more playable.
Nope. You are correct.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

I'm not looking at the other answers before answering. (Ok, well, I started reading post #2 but disagreed with the first point, so I stopped reading.)

1 can attack 2 with close combat. 2 cannot attack 1 with close combat.

Range is ok both ways.


Yes
EDIT: Scratch that...VanisherPunisher's answer is correct. Brain fart.


Actually, neither close nor ranged could be made either way.


Both close and ranged can be made. (EdIT: But close is only from 6 to 2) Furthermore, range could be made against other people further away, too.

So when CC Attack is made, since the rules only state that a grounded Giant can attack an elevated figure at close range, but it doesn't state an elevated giant can make a CC attack against a grounded figure.

So LOF must be made then, and elevated between two grounded giants block LOF.

Does this same reasoning apply to Colossal figures? For example, Colossal 5 and Colossal 6 could not attack each other at all, since LOF can't be made between elevated. Correct?

Once I get this all down, I'll make an in-depth chart and break it all down.

[Harpua]

Does this same reasoning apply to Colossal figures?
Yes it does.

[Spectre328]

rep for good questions and good answers


sorry harp cant rep u again

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

I have two more questions before I create my in-depth LOF diagram.

First on is regarding Giants and Ranged Combat Attacks:

Ranged combat attacks. Characters with the :g-starburst:
symbol do not block line of fire to or from this character. This
character and a character on elevated terrain draw line of fire and
make ranged combat attacks against each other as if they were both
elevated, but terrain effects (such as the hindering terrain modifier)
still apply normally.

So if a Giant is on Ground Terrain and Figure A and Figure B are on Elevated Terrain. Figure B is standing behind Figure A. The Giant has a straight and clear LOF to Figure A that is on elevated. But does the Giant and Figure B have a clear LOF to each other? It would appear they do by looking at the rule above for Ranged Combat Attacks regarding characters with the standard :g-starburst: symbol.

Next question. Same thing, but this time with a Colossal on Ground Terrain and Figure A and B on Elevated Terrain. Would Figure A block LOF between the Colossal and Figure B?

I have highlighted a section of the rules below to support that

From the Player's Guide:

• Colossal characters may make ranged attacks against non-adjacent opposing characters that they can draw a line of fire to even if they are currently adjacent to an opposing character.

I would say that no LOF could be established. I know it may sound goofy, but there is no rules stating that a Colossal ignores figures with the :g-starburst: symbol for LOF purposes when a target is elevated and the Colossal is on ground terrain. I can't find any rule, erratum, or clarification stating otherwise.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Then I'll create the LOF diagram I want to create.

[Harpua]

I have two more questions before I create my in-depth LOF diagram.

First on is regarding Giants and Ranged Combat Attacks:



So if a Giant is on Ground Terrain and Figure A and Figure B are on Elevated Terrain. Figure B is standing behind Figure A. The Giant has a straight and clear LOF to Figure A that is on elevated. But does the Giant and Figure B have a clear LOF to each other? It would appear they do by looking at the rule above for Ranged Combat Attacks regarding characters with the standard :g-starburst: symbol.
Yup...they can both see each other.

Next question. Same thing, but this time with a Colossal on Ground Terrain and Figure A and B on Elevated Terrain. Would Figure A block LOF between the Colossal and Figure B?
No.

I have highlighted a section of the rules below to support that

From the Player's Guide:



I would say that no LOF could be established. I know it may sound goofy, but there is no rules stating that a Colossal ignores figures with the :g-starburst: symbol for LOF purposes when a target is elevated and the Colossal is on ground terrain. I can't find any rule, erratum, or clarification stating otherwise.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Then I'll create the LOF diagram I want to create.

It would be great if the WK forums were still around.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Yup...they can both see each other.
No.

It would be great if the WK forums were still around.

Thanks a bunch for answering my questions. I really appreciate it.

I take it there was in-depth discussion on this matter on the WK forums?

OK, thanks a bunch. So I now I know that a Colossal on ground terrain can be attacked and make attacks against standard damage figures, regardless if another figure is in the LOF.

I'll make an in-depth LOF chart that will help us answer our questions during games.

[Harpua]

I take it there was in-depth discussion on this matter on the WK forums?
I remember it being stated that colossal and giant figures draw LoF in the same way.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

I remember it being stated that colossal and giant figures draw LoF in the same way.

Makes total sense. I'd leave feedback, but since I've recently done it, I can't. Thanks again for being such a huge help.