Thor's Chariot VS. Trigon

[Rottgutt]

I have a question about the Special Power of Thor's Mighty Chariot versus Trigon's Special Power of Doppleganger.

DOPPLEGANGER: Give Trigon a power action. Put up to three SPECIAL markers in unoccupied squares to which Trigon has line of fire adjacent to opposing characters 8 or fewer squares from him; these are doppleganger tokens. Doppleganger tokens are not characters or terrain, but can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain. Characters opposing to Trigon must break away from doppleganger tokens. When a character opposing to Trigon occupies a square adjacent to a doppleganger token or tokens is given a non-free action, deal the character 1 penetrating damage if the character is adjacent to a doppleganger token after the action is resolved. No more than three doppleganger tokens can be on the map at a time. At the end of any non-free action given to Trigon, he can remove any number of doppleganger tokens from the map.

At the beginning of your turn, as a free action Thor's Mighty Chariot may destroy any walls or blocking terrain adjacent to it.

Specifically:
Trigon's Doppleganger tokens "are not characters or terrain, but can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain." And Thor's Chariot "may destroy any walls or blocking terrain". Now the Doppleganger tokens aren't terrain but can be destroyed as if they were blocking terrain, so can Thor's Chariot destroy them at the beginning of it's turn as a free action?

[Crow]

I would say - yes. Although the tokens ARE NOT blocking terrain, they follow the same rules for purposes of destruction as blocking terrain "as if they WERE blocking terrain", and thereby anything that can destroy blocking terrain ought to be able to destroy one of these tokens.

[Rottgutt]

Yeah, I was leaning that direction as well, but figured I'd ask on the forums to see other folks' opinions on it.

You can't really use the Dopplegangers to do damage to the Chariot itself as "Thor's Mighty Chariot automatically breaks away", but I was thinking using them against anyone taking advantage of the Chariot's Defend and 18 defense clicks or Enhancement.

[brojase]

I would say - yes. Although the tokens ARE NOT blocking terrain, they follow the same rules for purposes of destruction as blocking terrain "as if they WERE blocking terrain", and thereby anything that can destroy blocking terrain ought to be able to destroy one of these tokens.

That's what I would say as well.

[krusticlese]

Strictly by the wording, I'd lean towards 'no' only because Trigon's SP makes the distinction that the tokens are not terrain. However I think that Thor's SP should be able to destroy any special objects that act like like blocking terrain, so a clarification might be in order.

[jackstar7]

I'd fall on the Krusticlese side of this with a "no", because they are not terrain.

[DerbyLembeck]

I fall in with the "no" camp.

The phrase "can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain" means, generally, an attack dealing 3 damage can destroy it.

Since the Chariots SP effects specifically only blocking terrain and walls, it does not have any effect on the doppleganger tokens, because they fall into neither category.

[as_bat]

I would go for the "no" too.
The dopplegangers are not terrain, you use the rules to destroy terrain to destroy them, but that does not make them blocking terrain or a wall.

[imaleximsweet]

Im on the fence on this one...

I can see both sides of the argument, I WANT to say yes, but from a gameplay stand point, i could also see why you could say no.

either way it is ruled i know that in my home games Im going to have to argue the correct ruling either way.

To summarize, this post doesn't help anyone, bump it back to the top so someone else can answer

[Harpua]

I'm saying yes because traditionally "as if X is" in this game means that the thing IS the other thing for all purposes (or for whatever specific purpose is listed).


In this case, you have this..
"Doppleganger tokens are not characters or terrain, but can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain."

Traditionally, this would mean that if one is speaking of blocking terrain destruction a Doppleganger token IS blocking terrain.

[llyrghmnghyll]

"can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain"

"may destroy any walls or blocking terrain adjacent to it"

If a can of cream corn can be used in a recipe "as if" it were a cup of fresh corn, and you have a recipe that calls for a cup of corn then you can use that cup of cream corn (although the recipe admittedly won't be as good.)

The Trigon power specifies that destruction ("destroyed") is the point of similarity between doppelgangers and walls. The only thing we are concerned with in Thor's power is the destruction of walls. the mechanics seem to match up pretty easily to me.

[mr-coffin]

I agree with Harpua

[Terman8er]

Well, objects can be destroyed, just like walls or blocking terrain (by dealing 3 damage), so does that mean Thor can destroy objects as well?

[Harpua]

Well, objects can be destroyed, just like walls or blocking terrain (by dealing 3 damage), so does that mean Thor can destroy objects as well?

No...they are not destroyed as if they are blocking terrain. They are destroyed using the rules for destroying blocking terrain. There's a big difference there.

[Rurouni KJS]

Well, objects can be destroyed, just like walls or blocking terrain (by dealing 3 damage), so does that mean Thor can destroy objects as well?

No, because Thoriot's ability only refers to walls and blocking terrain. Objects are neither (except the Dynamostat Special Object).

[Bat-Phreak]

From a strict rules interpretation, I would lean toward the "No" camp: "can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain" does not make the Doppleganger tokens blocking terrain.

That being said, I would immediately create a House Rule allowing The Chariot to "free destroy" Doppleganger tokens and Starrophytes; they too "...can be destroyed following the same rules for destroying blocking terrain."

This is a great example where a simple FAQ entry would resolve the issue.

[Spider-Dave]

I'm saying yes because traditionally "as if X is" in this game means that the thing IS the other thing for all purposes (or for whatever specific purpose is listed).


In this case, you have this..
"Doppleganger tokens are not characters or terrain, but can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain."

Traditionally, this would mean that if one is speaking of blocking terrain destruction a Doppleganger token IS blocking terrain.

agreed....

[Terman8er]

No, because Thoriot's ability only refers to walls and blocking terrain. Objects are neither (except the Dynamostat Special Object).

Ah...so since Trigon's SP doesn't call his tokens "walls" or "blocking terrain" doesn't this logic then apply to them (Trigon's SP thingees) as well?

[llyrghmnghyll]

Ah...so since Trigon's SP doesn't call his tokens "walls" or "blocking terrain" doesn't this logic then apply to them (Trigon's SP thingees) as well?

Again the key wording here is destroyed.

...Doppleganger tokens are not characters or terrain, but can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain...

"may destroy any walls or blocking terrain adjacent to it"

Doppelganger tokens do not act like anything but Doppelganger tokens, except when it comes to their Destruction, when they act like blocking terrain. Objects act like objects, even when it comes to being destroyed.

Think of it this way, in order to destroy a wall you must use a widget. anyone can get a widget by attacking the wall that the widget corresponds to, thoriot gets them for being adjacent to walls.

You destroy Doppelgangers as if they were blocking terrain, by using a widget, Thor gets free widgets, he destroys Doppelgangers. To destroy an object you need a doohickey, you can get a doohickey for an object in the same way you get a widget for blocking terrain, but that doesn't make a widget a doohickey.

that's my logic at least.

[BigSoph]

Element Lad's SP says "TRANSMUTE: At the beginning of your turn as a free action, Element Lad can choose one of the following options: (1) Destroy up to two adjacent objects or squares of blocking terrain; or blah, blah, blah

So then, EM can automatically destroy one of Trigon'd thingies as well then?

Actually, Trgon's power says "Put up to three SPECIAL markers in unoccupied squares to which Trigon has line of fire adjacent to opposing characters 8 or fewer squares from him"

Not blocking terrain, they are special markers

I say no

[imaleximsweet]

Element Lad's SP says "TRANSMUTE: At the beginning of your turn as a free action, Element Lad can choose one of the following options: (1) Destroy up to two adjacent objects or squares of blocking terrain; or blah, blah, blah

So then, EM can automatically destroy one of Trigon'd thingies as well then?

Actually, Trgon's power says "Put up to three SPECIAL markers in unoccupied squares to which Trigon has line of fire adjacent to opposing characters 8 or fewer squares from him"

Not blocking terrain, they are special markers

I say no

Going along with the wording of Destroy and can be Destroyed as it says for the Dopplegangers, I would say yes.

I am not sure why the Element Lad question was not raised earlier (probably because noone uses him :cheeky:)

BUT i would say that the same thing applies with the Thoriot. So however it is agreed upon, the rulings for these 2 will be the same (or should be the same)

but harupa (as always) makes a good point, the can be destroyed as if, and destroy arguments seem to be the nail in the coffin...

and llygrmll (i know i spelled it wrong but you know who i am talkin about) made the same distinction (and the lovely corn reference)

[llyrghmnghyll]

Element Lad's SP says "TRANSMUTE: At the beginning of your turn as a free action, Element Lad can choose one of the following options: (1) Destroy up to two adjacent objects or squares of blocking terrain; or blah, blah, blah

So then, EM can automatically destroy one of Trigon'd thingies as well then?

Actually, Trgon's power says "Put up to three SPECIAL markers in unoccupied squares to which Trigon has line of fire adjacent to opposing characters 8 or fewer squares from him"

Not blocking terrain, they are special markers

I say no

Imaleximsweet is correct.

Logically as I can:
(A) is a 3 damage attack
(B) is Thoriot's SP
(C) is an unknown
(X) is a doppelganger special token
(Y) is a character
(Z) is a wall

(A) applied to (Z) = destruction
(B) applied to (Z) = destruction

"Doppelganger Tokens...can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain" reads logically as
IF [(C) applied to (Z) = Destruction] Then [(C) applied to (X)= Destruction]

both (A) and (B) fill the requirements for (C), hence

(B) applied to (X) = destruction

or Thoriot's special power destroys doppelgangers.

[as_bat]

Imaleximsweet is correct.

Logically as I can:
(A) is a 3 damage attack
(B) is Thoriot's SP
(C) is an unknown
(X) is a doppelganger special token
(Y) is a character
(Z) is a wall

(A) applied to (Z) = destruction
(B) applied to (Z) = destruction

"Doppelganger Tokens...can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain" reads logically as
IF [(C) applied to (Z) = Destruction] Then [(C) applied to (X)= Destruction]

both (A) and (B) fill the requirements for (C), hence

(B) applied to (X) = destruction

or Thoriot's special power destroys doppelgangers.

and what about this:

(((X * Y) / sqr(Z)) + A!) ^B = automatic win?????
Or do I also need to put a lunge there?


:D :D :D :D

[BigSoph]

Okay, how about this, from Trigon's SP: these are doppleganger tokens. Doppleganger tokens are not characters or terrain

They are, and I quote, "not terrain"

"Are not" trumps "treated as"

Thoriot's SP destroys TERRAIN, which the doppies are not

At the beginning of your turn, as a free action Thor's Mighty Chariot may destroy any walls or blocking terrain adjacent to it.

[Harpua]

Okay, how about this, from Trigon's SP: these are doppleganger tokens. Doppleganger tokens are not characters or terrain

They are, and I quote, "not terrain"

"Are not" trumps "treated as"

Thoriot's SP destroys TERRAIN, which the doppies are not

At the beginning of your turn, as a free action Thor's Mighty Chariot may destroy any walls or blocking terrain adjacent to it.

Lex Luthor:
Ruthless: Lex Luthor can use Mastermind, but can treat any friendly character 4 or fewer squares away to which he has a clear line of fire as if it were adjacent.

Mastermind
Each time this character would be dealt damage, you may instead choose to have all the damage be dealt to a single adjacent friendly character with a point value less than this character’s. If the damage resulted from an attack with knock back, the character that takes the damage is knocked back. If a character is defeated by damage dealt using this power, it is considered to have been defeated by the character that originally dealt the damage. Damage dealt by this power is not an attack.

He threats them "as if" they are adjacent. They aren't adjacent, though, so by your reasoning, since MM requires actual adjacency, the additions to the basic MM power in Ruthless are useless.

Arcade
Murderbots: Give Arcade a power action. Choose up to two standard objects 10 or fewer squares from Arcade to which he has a clear line of fire when he is given the action, and move each object as if it were a character that has Arcarde’s speed value.
The object is treated "as if" it is a character. It isn't a character, though, so why does it have to stop moving if it becomes adjacent to an enemy?
Because "as if" cause the the thing to actually be the other thing.

In this case, being destroyed as if it is blocking terrain means that when you speak of destroying it IS 100% blocking terrain.

[jackstar7]

70% at most.

[as_bat]

70% at most.

so you only need to do it 2.1 damage to destroy it?

[Harpua]

70% at most.

It's a good thing that all fractions get rounded up in this game then.

[BigSoph]

He threats them "as if" they are adjacent. They aren't adjacent, though, so by your reasoning, since MM requires actual adjacency, the additions to the basic MM power in Ruthless are useless.

The object is treated "as if" it is a character. It isn't a character, though, so why does it have to stop moving if it becomes adjacent to an enemy?
Because "as if" cause the the thing to actually be the other thing.

In this case, being destroyed as if it is blocking terrain means that when you speak of destroying it IS 100% blocking terrain.

But the fact that it states they are specifically NOT terrain and Thor's power destroys terrain...?

Based on the wording, "as if" in this case means requires 3 damage to destroy and it is not a character so RCE/CCE won't work but Super Strength would add its bonus

Perhaps you may want the rules to be several hundred pages - I do not

And please do not use me as a straw man - as if in the Luthor case means the adjacency requirement is waived and the object follows the same rules vis a vis characters and movement. Since Ruthless treats characters as if they are adjacent, then Luthor should be able to use his 'borrowed' Suicide Squad ability to heal himself when his luckless minion dies from transferred damage, correct?

They could have written this out in full, giving all new rules which are identical to those for characters. Again, there is only so much room on the cards

[spideyguy51]

It seems like that the wording means that if the doppelgangers are targeted, they are treated as if they are blocking terrain, so the chariot could destroy them freely.

[Harpua]

But the fact that it states they are specifically NOT terrain and Thor's power destroys terrain...?

Based on the wording, "as if" in this case means requires 3 damage to destroy and it is not a character so RCE/CCE won't work but Super Strength would add its bonus

Perhaps you may want the rules to be several hundred pages - I do not[quote]
A character 3 away is NOT adjacent, but for purposes of Ruthless, they ARE adjacent.

An object is NOT a character, but for purposes of movement via Murderbots, they ARE characters.

A Doppelganger token is NOT terrain, but for purposes of destruction, they ARE terrain.

[quote]And please do not use me as a straw man - as if in the Luthor case means the adjacency requirement is waived and the object follows the same rules vis a vis characters and movement. Since Ruthless treats characters as if they are adjacent, then Luthor should be able to use his 'borrowed' Suicide Squad ability to heal himself when his luckless minion dies from transferred damage, correct?
That would not be correct. For the purpose of Mastermind, the figure is adjacent. That is the only purpose for which it is adjacent. Since Suicide Squad is not Mastermind, it is not adjacent.

They could have written this out in full, giving all new rules which are identical to those for characters. Again, there is only so much room on the cards

[bullseye100]

I say yes!

[AbsoluteRob]

Hi everyone,

Maybe I'm missing something here but seems to me the answer is pretty clear.

Thor's Mighty Chariot can destroy any walls or blocking terrain. That's obvious and very specific in the text. Also, obvious and specific within the text is that Trigon's Dopplegangers are not terrain of any kind. They can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain but as the card states, they are explicitly not blocking terrain.

"As if" is the operative phrase.

"As if" doesn't equate "is". The text of Thor's Mighty Chariot specifies walls and blocking terrain and only walls and blocking terrain and doesn't say anything about things that act as if they are walls and blocking terrain. Since the dopplegangers only act as if they are blocking terrain but aren't actually blocking terrain, they are immune to the power.

It'd be a different matter entirely if the card said dopplegangers are blocking terrain. They aren't, though and that makes all the difference. It's a detail. A small but very important detail.

Now that I'm thinking about it, this is very reminiscent of the difference between stealth and stealth-like team abilities like Batman Ally. The Batman Ally TA may act as if it is stealth but it isn't actually stealth. As a result, outwit works on stealth but is useless against the Batman TA.

Robert

[Samaritan]

No, because Thoriot's ability only refers to walls and blocking terrain. Objects are neither (except the Dynamostat Special Object).

From what i remember, the Dynamostat is considered blocking terrain for movement and LoF purposes only. That way, it could not be destroyed by the Chariot, since it ISN'T blocking terrain, but an object.

As for the general question, it's pretty obvious to me that yes, the dopplegangers can be destroyed by the Chariot, since they affirm the option on it's very description.

[brojase]

Hi everyone,

Maybe I'm missing something here but seems to me the answer is pretty clear.

Thor's Mighty Chariot can destroy any walls or blocking terrain. That's obvious and very specific in the text. Also, obvious and specific within the text is that Trigon's Dopplegangers are not terrain of any kind. They can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain but as the card states, they are explicitly not blocking terrain.

"As if" is the operative phrase.

"As if" doesn't equate "is". The text of Thor's Mighty Chariot specifies walls and blocking terrain and only walls and blocking terrain and doesn't say anything about things that act as if they are walls and blocking terrain. Since the dopplegangers only act as if they are blocking terrain but aren't actually blocking terrain, they are immune to the power.

It'd be a different matter entirely if the card said dopplegangers are blocking terrain. They aren't, though and that makes all the difference. It's a detail. A small but very important detail.

Now that I'm thinking about it, this is very reminiscent of the difference between stealth and stealth-like team abilities like Batman Ally. The Batman Ally TA may act as if it is stealth but it isn't actually stealth. As a result, outwit works on stealth but is useless against the Batman TA.

Robert

I disagree. I don't think that the operative phrase is 'as is', I think that the operative word is 'destroy'. Thor can destroy blocking terrain. Dopplegangers can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain (that is, when someone wishes to destroy a doppleganger token, it is treated as though it is blocking terrain). The second that Thor says 'I am going to destroy those dopplegangers' they are (in essence) blocking terrain because, as Harpua and others have said, the operative word 'destroy' is envoked.

Harpua also quoted some other examples of the phrase 'as is' in Heroclix being, effectively, 'is'.

[AbsoluteRob]

Samaritn and Bro,

It's not so obvious. If it was that obvious then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Sure, they doppelegangers can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain but again, "as if" doesn't equate "is", just like the Batman Ally TA acts as if it is Stealth but isn't stealth.

I'd feel differently if the text of both Thor's Mighty Chariot and Trigon's cards was less specific. Since the description of the power on Thor's Mighty Chariot specifically says it works only against walls or blocking terrain - and it is very specific - things that act as if they are walls and/or blocking terrain need not apply.

Since it's stated explicitly on Trigon's card the Dopplegangers are not blocking terrain regardless of how they act under certain circumstances. That means, regardless of how they act under certain circumstances, their status remains the same. They are still not blocking terrain.

Robert

[BigSoph]

Thor can destroy blocking terrain.

Yes, it very clearly states this. And walls too

But it also very equally clearly states that the dopplegangers are NOT terrain

They needed rules to allow people to get rid of the doppies, so they dropped in a phrase that allows you to quickly determine how much damage you need

Since as if apparently equals is, how about this: Make a ranged combat attack as if the character using Telekinesis were in the square occupied by the object (as shown in Figure 20) and had a range value of 8

Enemy figure-object

According to your 'as if', I cannot use TK to make a ranged TK attack against the enemy above because I would be making a ranged attack while adjacent

[brojase]

Samaritn and Bro,

It's not so obvious. If it was that obvious then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

This much we can agree on :)

Since it's stated explicitly on Trigon's card the Dopplegangers are not blocking terrain regardless of how they act under certain circumstances. That means, regardless of how they act under certain circumstances, their status remains the same. They are still not blocking terrain.

Robert

I see what you're saying...but I am obviously interpreting this from the other side. That is, regardless of the status, certain circumstances can dictate what their status is. If that makes sense.

[imaleximsweet]

Yes, it very clearly states this. And walls too

But it also very equally clearly states that the dopplegangers are NOT terrain

They needed rules to allow people to get rid of the doppies, so they dropped in a phrase that allows you to quickly determine how much damage you need

Since as if apparently equals is, how about this: Make a ranged combat attack as if the character using Telekinesis were in the square occupied by the object (as shown in Figure 20) and had a range value of 8

Enemy figure-object

According to your 'as if', I cannot use TK to make a ranged TK attack against the enemy above because I would be making a ranged attack while adjacent

So you mean to tell me that all of these;

GOLDEN LASSO: Gold can use Incapacitate, but only as part of a ranged combat action (as if he had a range of 6).[/QUOTE

[QUOTE]TIE UP: Wonder Woman can use Super Strength and Incapacitate (as if she had a range of 6). When she uses Incapacitate and successfully hits a target opposing character, you can give an action token to a second opposing character that has zero or one token that is adjacent to the target, if the attack roll would also hit the second character.

LASSO: Wonder Girl can use Incapacitate as if she had a range value of 6. If she successfully hits a target with a ranged combat attack when using Incapacitate, after resolving the action you can put the target in an unoccupied square of clear terrain adjacent to and at the same elevation as Wonder Girl.

TIE UP: Wonder Girl can use Incapacitate as if she had a range value of 6. When she uses Incapacitate and successfully hits a target opposing character, you can give an action token to a second opposing character that has zero or one action token that is adjacent to the target, if the attack roll would also hit the second character.

LASSO: Wonder Woman can use Incapacitate as if she has a range of 8.

WILT PLANT GROWTH: Floronic Man can use Smoke Cloud as if he has a range of 4; when he uses Smoke Cloud, he can place up to 8 hindering terrain markers if all markers are placed 2 or fewer squares from him.

VISAGE OF SORROW: Johnny Sorrow can use Pulse Wave (as if he had a range of 10); his damage value becomes 2 for the attack.

OUTTA MY FACE: Arkillo can use Toughness. Once per turn, Arkillo can use Barrier (as if he had a range of 4) as a free action, but he can place only up to two blocking terrain markers.

DREAM MANIPULATION: Doctor Destiny can use Mind Control as if he had :bolt::bolt::bolt: When he does, he takes no damage due to the point value of a successfully hit target if it had at least one action token when it was hit.

MASS MANIPULATION: Psycho-Man can use Mind Control as if he had :bolt::bolt::bolt:.

DUCTILE: Mr. Fantastic can use Super Senses and Barrier (as if he had a range of 0). When a Barrier terrain marker placed by Mr. Fantastic is destroyed, roll a d6; on a result of 1, deal 1 damage to Mr. Fantastic.

are not what we thought they were????

by the anti Thoriot destroying doppies logic, these powers do not mean jack squat...

My point;

the ruling HAS to stay consistent. although it might not have been the intention at the time of writing doppelgangers, it is how it is written.

When they are being destroyed they act as blocking terrain, just like when Gold uses Incap he acts like he has 6 range (despite having 8) and so on and so forth.

Thor gets to destroy blocking terrain for free.

check back;
When they are being destroyed they act as blocking terrain, just like when Gold uses Incap he acts like he has 6 range (despite having 8) and so on and so forth.

Thor goes to destroy the dopplegangers; they become blocking terrain for destruction purposes, Thor wins.

end of discussion.

[llyrghmnghyll]

Based on the wording, "as if" in this case means requires 3 damage to destroy

How does "as if" mean requires "an attack dealing 3 damage"? "As if" usually means "in the same manner".

Simple: If A destroys C and B destroys C, and anything that destroys C destroys D, then Both A and B destroy D.

[brojase]

Yes, it very clearly states this. And walls too

But it also very equally clearly states that the dopplegangers are NOT terrain

They needed rules to allow people to get rid of the doppies, so they dropped in a phrase that allows you to quickly determine how much damage you need

Since as if apparently equals is, how about this: Make a ranged combat attack as if the character using Telekinesis were in the square occupied by the object (as shown in Figure 20) and had a range value of 8

Enemy figure-object

According to your 'as if', I cannot use TK to make a ranged TK attack against the enemy above because I would be making a ranged attack while adjacent

I don't think I said that as if=is...I think I said 'as though it is, in essence, effectively'...which seems to me to be different. But as I said with Absolute Rob, the as if isn't as key as the 'destroys' part. That's all I'm saying.

[RedDragon]

i agree with rob & big. i also gave them extra point because only have one of the coolest reality shows on MTV. LOL :)

[mell]

free action thors charit can destroy walls or blocking terrian. specific
doppler tockens- they are not walls or blocking terrian. specific
but can be destroyed as if blocking terrian meaning you can destroy them if meet the requirement for destroying blocking terrian- which is a minimum of three base damage. yes thor can destroy the doppler tockens but not with his special power as a free action, because its not a wall or blocking terrian

[llyrghmnghyll]

Back to analogy.

John is not a Vending Machine.
John can be treated AS IF he were a Vending Machine when the vending machine is broken.
The Vending Machine is Broken.
Arnold wants some candy from the vending machine.

Should Arnold leave the building and go find a vending machine elsewhere, or should he go to John?

[BigSoph]

Back to analogy.

John is not a Vending Machine.
John can be treated AS IF he were a Vending Machine when the vending machine is broken.
The Vending Machine is Broken.
Arnold wants some candy from the vending machine.

Should Arnold leave the building and go find a vending machine elsewhere, or should he go to John?

But if you kick the vending machine when it fails to deliver candy it doesn't scream

If by 'as if he were a vending machine' you mean you can put a coin in an opening on his outside and receive something from the interior, this ranks as one of the most disturbing analogies ever

[Terman8er]

John is not a vending machine.
John can be treated AS IF he were a vending machine when you want candy.
You give the vending machine 3 dollars and you can get some candy.
You give John 3 dollars and he gives you candy.

3 dollars gets you candy (3 damage destroys blocking terrain or one of Trigon's special markers) either from John or the vending machine.

*waits on the "Want some candy?" jokes* :)

[brojase]

If by 'as if he were a vending machine' you mean you can put a coin in an opening on his outside and receive something from the interior, this ranks as one of the most disturbing analogies ever

Yeah, I can agree with you on that :laugh:

[llyrghmnghyll]

John is not a vending machine.
John can be treated AS IF he were a vending machine when you want candy.
A token can also buy candy
You give the vending machine 3 dollars and you can get some candy.
You give the vending machine a token and you can get some candy.
You give John 3 dollars and he gives you candy.
You give John a token and he gives you candy.

3 dollars gets you candy (3 damage destroys blocking terrain or one of Trigon's special markers) either from John or the vending machine.

*waits on the "Want some candy?" jokes* :)

you took out the important context so I added it back in. Thanks for the help.

[imaleximsweet]

Yes, it very clearly states this. And walls too

But it also very equally clearly states that the dopplegangers are NOT terrain

They needed rules to allow people to get rid of the doppies, so they dropped in a phrase that allows you to quickly determine how much damage you need

Since as if apparently equals is, how about this: Make a ranged combat attack as if the character using Telekinesis were in the square occupied by the object (as shown in Figure 20) and had a range value of 8

Enemy figure-object

According to your 'as if', I cannot use TK to make a ranged TK attack against the enemy above because I would be making a ranged attack while adjacent

emphasis mine.

I believe it was established in the case "Turret v. The People" where the special object The Turret is NOT a character but can make a range combat attack, and doest NOT fall under the same rulings as characters and adjacency. Therefore, an object adjacent to an opponent can still make a range combat attack as stated in your example.

[BigSoph]

emphasis mine.

I believe it was established in the case "Turret v. The People" where the special object The Turret is NOT a character but can make a range combat attack, and doest NOT fall under the same rulings as characters and adjacency. Therefore, an object adjacent to an opponent can still make a range combat attack as stated in your example.

The difference is that the turret makes the attack, it requires the presence of a character. The description of TK says "as if" the character was in the square
The laser turret says, and I quote, "give this object a free action"

Sorry, not the same thing

[Harpua]

What is funny is that I would bet that some people would be of differing opinions had the debate began with Wallbuster and Unstoppable.

Wallbuster: World's Finest can use Super Strength. When given a move action, during the move World's Finest can automatically destroy up to 2 squares of blocking terrain or the wall adjoining two squares; they can continue their move, if any, after destroying the wall.

Wallbuster: Power Man and Iron Fist can use Super Strength. When given a move action, during the move they can automatically destroy up to 2 squares of blocking terrain or the wall adjoining two squares; they can continue their move, if any, after destroying the blocking terrain or the wall.

UNSTOPPABLE
Cost: 5
Prerequisite: Super Strength
Choose a character. The character ignores the effects of hindering terrain for movement purposes. Once when given a move action, the character can make a close combat attack targeting blocking terrain or a wall as a free action. If the attack succeeds, the character can continue the rest of its movement, if any, after making the attack.

It's just a suspicion that I have, but I really think that some people saying "No" would have said "Yes" if these were presented first.

[imaleximsweet]

What is funny is that I would bet that some people would be of differing opinions had the debate began with Wallbuster and Unstoppable.



It's just a suspicion that I have, but I really think that some people saying "No" would have said "Yes" if these were presented first.

i thought about presenting this info, but i thought it would be a killer blow ;)

(oh who am i kidding i was just too lazy to do it)

but ya, i completely agree...

[Terman8er]

Had to go into work tonight so I had some time to think about this away from the arguement, so to speak.

And after the 25 mintues in and the 25 minutes back I think I have changed my mind.

I have been looking at this as Thoriot can destroy stuff and stuff can be destroyed. Then I look at Trigon's thingees as not being stuff...it says it right there. But the card then adds an extra smidgen of info...that thingees can be be detroyed like stuff can be.

And that stuff can "only" (in my mind this is how I was seeing things) be destroyed with three damage.

So...taking some time and looking at it I see that as: Trigon's thingee's aren't stuff, except when it comes time to destroy said thingees...then they are stuff.

I know...I over complicated that but in the end...I agree with those stating Thoriot can destroy Trigon's thingees.

[VanisherPunisher]

I'm going a little off-topic here, but I have to reply to this:

Now that I'm thinking about it, this is very reminiscent of the difference between stealth and stealth-like team abilities like Batman Ally. The Batman Ally TA may act as if it is stealth but it isn't actually stealth. As a result, outwit works on stealth but is useless against the Batman TA.

The current wording of BA is:

BATMAN ALLY
A character using the Batman Ally team
ability may use Stealth (though they do not possess the
Stealth power).

So it is in fact Stealth. The reason Outwit doesn't work on it is because Outwit specifically cannot counter team abilities.

[Fullmetalfreak94]

i agree with Harpua bout the whole as if thing. i also see the argument on the "no" side but id say yes. it just comes down to the way they are worded, which essentially says yes. but u shud go with what the judge at tour venue says, bcuz: the judge is law. and disobayence of the law is punishable by death. quote from a custom feat/BFC my judge made.

[AbsoluteRob]

Vanisher,

Semantics. The Batman Ally TA is still not the same as actually having stealth. You're just saying it in a different manner. Just as the Dopplegangers are not actually terrain even if they have some of its characteristics.

Robert

[imaleximsweet]

Vanisher,

Semantics. The Batman Ally TA is still not the same as actually having stealth. You're just saying it in a different manner. Just as the Dopplegangers are not actually terrain even if they have some of its characteristics.

Robert

I agree Dopplegangers are not terrain, but as you say they DO have some of terrain's characteristics.

and it just so happens that the characteristics of the dopplegangers that they share with terrain is EXACTLY the same characteristics that allow it to be destroyed by Thoriot's free action.

[Surfer13]

No.
Just because they can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain it doesn't make them blocking terrain.

If a can of cream corn can be used in a recipe "as if" it were a cup of fresh corn, and you have a recipe that calls for a cup of corn then you can use that cup of cream corn (although the recipe admittedly won't be as good.)
But it doesn't make the can of cream corn become a cup of fresh corn.

[zero_cochrane]

I think that this is very clear.

Dopplegangers can be destroyed as if they were blocking terrain. It is not relevant that the Doppelganger is not actually blocking terrain, it is still destroyed as though it were. That means that anything that destroys blocking terrain can destroy a Doppelganger. I do not see how this could be any more clear.

Thor's Mighty Chariot can destroy blocking terrain, so it can destroy Doppelgangers. QED.

"Doppleganger tokens are not characters or terrain" means that they are not treated as blocking terrain in any other way (for example, they do not block line of fire), but for the purpose of destruction, they are.

If Trigon's special power was intended to mean specifically "Doppelgangers can be destroyed by an attack that deals 3 damage" then it would have been written that way.

[imaleximsweet]

No.
Just because they can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain it doesn't make them blocking terrain.


But it doesn't make the can of cream corn become a cup of fresh corn.

The point is that they are treated the same. and therefore treated for the same rules.

Refer to my previous post which i list alot of special powers where characters are treated "as if" they had something else (Range for example) by this logic they would use their printed values on their dials instead of the range presented in the special powers...

so yes, Dopplegangers are NOT blocking terrain UNTIL you go to destroy them. then they are treated as blocking terrain. which Thoriot can destroy as a free action.

[BigSoph]

If Trigon's special power was intended to mean specifically "Doppelgangers can be destroyed by an attack that deals 3 damage" then it would have been written that way.

So what if my 1 damage, RCE character targeted them? What about my 1 damage, Super Strength character

RCE does not work on terrain and would not work on the Dops, whereas the Super strength case would. 3 damage is not 3 damage is not 3 damage

Again, maybe some folks really want the HC rulebook to rival that of the Champions RPG because that is what will be necessary to prevent weasel wording

As to Harpua, I am not getting your counter example. I wonder how many here would have denied Element Lad's ability to destroy the Dops if it had been him in question rather than fan favourite Thor? (btw, he can't)

[llyrghmnghyll]

So what if my 1 damage, RCE character targeted them? What about my 1 damage, Super Strength character

RCE does not work on terrain and would not work on the Dops, whereas the Super strength case would. 3 damage is not 3 damage is not 3 damage

Again, maybe some folks really want the HC rulebook to rival that of the Champions RPG because that is what will be necessary to prevent weasel wording

As to Harpua, I am not getting your counter example. I wonder how many here would have denied Element Lad's ability to destroy the Dops if it had been him in question rather than fan favourite Thor? (btw, he can't)

Intent has nothing to do with anything. If I intend to get knighted, you don't have to call me sir.

What matters is the ability which logically implies that Thor Can destroy Dops.

-RCE can't be used against Dops, because they are not characters, same RCE can't be used against Walls.
-Element Lads SP (part 1) can destroy Dops as far as I know, why do you say it can't. The second part can't be because Dops aren't Hindering terrain for purposes of removing them from the board, only for destroying them.

[BigSoph]

Intent has nothing to do with anything. If I intend to get knighted, you don't have to call me sir.

What matters is the ability which logically implies that Thor Can destroy Dops.

-RCE can't be used against Dops, because they are not characters, same RCE can't be used against Walls.
-Element Lads SP (part 1) can destroy Dops as far as I know, why do you say it can't. The second part can't be because Dops aren't Hindering correction: Blocking terrain for purposes of removing them from the board, only for destroying them.

Logically? Dops are specifically not terrain and the thoriot destroys, specifically, blocking terrain; This is not logical?

There are several powers that deal damage to characters only and not terrain (EE, PW, RCE, CCE) and if they simply said three damage we would have a whole mess of threads asking if this was all at once or could it be three different characters, would any of the above powers work, etc.

The fact that the established rules for destroying terrain are fairly succinct made it the ideal choice, if for no other reason that to avoid having a small paper accordion describing every single figure

Another facet might be this, from the FF rules: An attacker can’t target both a character and blocking terrain with the same attack. So if I have Flurry, could I attack a dop token and an enemy at the same time? The answer would be no, because the rules for destroying blocking terrain say no

Since Element Lad says he destroys blocking terrain (either the map terrain or blocking terrain markers, i.e. barrier tokens) if I said his power worked and Thoriot's did not, I would be a hypocrite

[llyrghmnghyll]

Logically? Dops are specifically not terrain and the thoriot destroys, specifically, blocking terrain; This is not logical?

Quoting half the relevant details doesn't mean anything.

Doppleganger tokens are not characters or terrain, but can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain

The "can be destroyed as if..." isn't even the next sentence, it is part of the same logical thought.

The assertion that I agree with is that "can be destroyed as if" means can be destroyed using any means that would destroy Blocking terrain.

Your assertion is that the "can be destroyed as if..." means only as described in the rulebook, and nothing else which would logically follow.

It logically follows that if X "can be destroyed as if (it is) blocking terrain" and that Y "may destroy ... blocking terrain adjacent to it," then Y can destroy X.

Why would we not logically assume this to be true. If you argue against logic you must have a compelling argument.

As to the designers intentions

1) why do you think the designers intended something other than the result.

and

2) The designers intention's are totally irrelevant to how those rules actually work. Having written rules before I understand that what I want the rules to say and how they actually work are very different things. Furthermore since I can't psychically communicate with everyone who reads my rules the only thing that are the rules are what's written, and not what I want the rules to be.

[BigSoph]

The assertion that I agree with is that "can be destroyed as if" means can be destroyed using any means that would destroy Blocking terrain.

Your assertion is that the "can be destroyed as if..." means only as described in the rulebook, and nothing else which would logically follow.

It logically follows that if X "can be destroyed as if (it is) blocking terrain" and that Y "may destroy ... blocking terrain adjacent to it," then Y can destroy X.

Why would we not logically assume this to be true. If you argue against logic you must have a compelling argument.

You are making an assumption in your reasoning. I am working from the basis that when it says "may be destroyed as... etc." it means that the rules in the rule book for destroying blocking terrain are the same as for this. This does not mean it becomes blocking terrain. Thoriot destroys BT

As to the designers intentions

1) why do you think the designers intended something other than the result.

and

2) The designers intention's are totally irrelevant to how those rules actually work. Having written rules before I understand that what I want the rules to say and how they actually work are very different things. Furthermore since I can't psychically communicate with everyone who reads my rules the only thing that are the rules are what's written, and not what I want the rules to be.

Then the designers intended to create a confusing contradictory rules set. If you do not believe this, then I will prevent evidence, q.v. Rules of Combat, www.hcrealms.com

[imaleximsweet]

You are making an assumption in your reasoning. I am working from the basis that when it says "may be destroyed as... etc." it means that the rules in the rule book for destroying blocking terrain are the same as for this. This does not mean it becomes blocking terrain. Thoriot destroys BT


But saying "they can be destroyed as if" means that ANYTHING that destroys blocking terrain can be used in means of destroying them.

if they wanted it to be "Dopplegangers can be destroyed by 3 or more damage" then they would have said that.

We have to go with what was said; "they can be destroyed as if they were blocking terrain."

So by this logic anything that can be used to destroy blocking terrain can be used to destroy Dopplegangers.

this does not MAKE dopplegangers blocking terrain, just for the purpose of destroying them.

Soph, by your logic any character that has a Special Power that says (for example) "So and So can use incap as if they had a range of 7" would use their dial's range when incapping because they dont actually HAVE 7 range.

by saying "...as if..." means you treat it under those circumstances as if it was it says it is.

[Owlman]

Thor may destroy blocking terrain. For purposes of destruction, the dopplegangers are treated as if they are blocking terrain. You cannot destroy dopplegangers with 1 damage and RCE, correct? That which does not destroy blocking terrain cannot destroy the doppleganger. It would make sense that that which does destroy blocking terrain destroys the doppleganger.



The dopplegangers are not blocking terrain, true. However, they may be destroyed by any means that destroys blocking terrain. Thoriot destroys blocking terrain, which the dopplegangers clearly are not.

I don't see why we're so confused here.;)

[Armourgeddon2K]

This thread is a fantastic example of why we need a Rules arbitrator/clarification.

Almost everything that has been posted here makes sense (there was a faulty equation in there somewhere) BUT we are still no closer to knowing which is TRUE.

The intent was probably to have Trigon have a very irritating SP and for Thor's chariot to be able to smash through terrain in a very god-like way. I don't think either designers even considered that you might want Thor to smash through Trigon and his neferious dopplegangers. NECA please appoint a RA!

[DerbyLembeck]

A new RA would be nice, but the RA has traditionally deferred tough questions to the game designing team. Good luck with that now, eh?

[llyrghmnghyll]

I really don't get where this is so hard to understand, I also think it is in no way unclear.

I am working from the basis that when it says "may be destroyed as... etc." it means that the rules in the rule book for destroying blocking terrain are the same as for this. This does not mean it becomes blocking terrain. Thoriot destroys BT

Actually you are working from the assumption that it means "the rules in the rulebook" and nothing else which makes logical sense. By this logic Thor's power doesn't even work, because it isn't included in the rulebook. I guess you could be working from the assumption that Powers don't interact with one another. i.e. my special powers can't interact with your special powers, which I also don't understand. Isn't this one of the reasons why they changed the Hypersonic from a movement action to a power action; so free movement characters like JLA Flash and Brotherhood Quicksilver Couldn't attack with a free movement action.

[mell]

as if does not mean it is.
thors charit specifically say destroy walls or blocking terrian for that sp.
doppler tokens specifically says they are not terrians. they can be destroyed with the requirements of blocking terrian but they are not terrian. chariats sp does not apply to the tokens it specifically says for walls or blocking terrian, which the doppler tokens are not

[imaleximsweet]

as if does not mean it is.
thors charit specifically say destroy walls or blocking terrian for that sp.
doppler tokens specifically says they are not terrians. they can be destroyed with the requirements of blocking terrian but they are not terrian. chariats sp does not apply to the tokens it specifically says for walls or blocking terrian, which the doppler tokens are not

The part i bolded is not a true statement, nowhere in the power does it say that.

the power says "Dopplegangers can be destroyed AS IF THEY ARE BLOCKING TERRAIN"

MEANING:

IF (insert power/ability) CAN DESTROY BLOCKING TERRAIN

THEN

IT CAN DESTROY DOPPLEGANGERS

below are things that can destroy blocking terrain;

3 damage
Wall Buster SP (Power man and iron fist, World Finest)
Unstoppable Feat card
Sunder Feat card
Element Lad's SP

AND EVEN THOR'S CHARIOT'S SPECIAL POWER!!!

[Maraud]

just a quick question then.
If i make a ranged combat attack does it also mean that i will need to draw a LoF to the other side of the Doppelganger? Since that is what u need to do to destroy Blocking terrain.

[VanisherPunisher]

just a quick question then.
If i make a ranged combat attack does it also mean that i will need to draw a LoF to the other side of the Doppelganger? Since that is what u need to do to destroy Blocking terrain.

You're thinking of walls.

A ranged combat attack
can be used to destroy a square of blocking terrain by drawing a line of
fire to the center of the square of blocking terrain; the line of fire is not
blocked by blocking terrain in the target square

[Doctor Diesel]

How the heck does this even warrant a discussion? The only way it could have been clearer is if they phrased it something like "For the purpose of destruction, this object IS blocking terrain." If the "treat [X] as if it were [Y] for the purpose of [Z]" is too difficult to comprehend, then you fail at very basic logic and should stay away from anything more advanced than a toaster.

imaleximsweet could not possibly have explained it better, he and Harpua have patiently tried to make analogies to why the Thoriot SP MUST be able to destroy the Doppleganger tokens for previous rulings to be valid/consistent and still some people cling to the "Dopplegangers are not blocking terrain and Thoriot's SP only destroys blocking terrain" fallacy. THEY ARE. For the purpose of being destroyed. Which is what Thoriot's SP does.

FFS, people.

[zero_cochrane]

The line of fire rules for destroying a wall and destroying a square of blocking terrain are not the same. You are conflating them.

A ranged combat attack can be used to destroy a square of blocking terrain by drawing a line of fire to the center of the square of blocking terrain; the line of fire is not blocked by blocking terrain in the target square.
compare to:
A ranged combat attack can be used to destroy a wall by drawing a line of fire to the center of the square adjacent to the side of the wall opposite the attacking character and within the character’s range, as shown in Figure 14; in this case, the line of fire is not blocked by the wall or a character occupying the targeted square (though it might be blocked in other ways). All other requirements for destroying a wall are the same as those for destroying blocking terrain.

[Armourgeddon2K]

A new RA would be nice, but the RA has traditionally deferred tough questions to the game designing team. Good luck with that now, eh?

I think what I was getting at was
It needs one person to make a decision and make that the Rule.

The fact that previous RAs decided to ask the people who thought up the rules what they meant to happen, doesn't alter the fact that the RA made the decision. I suspect that if the RA thought the designers opinion was untenable they would have decided something different

[Maraud]

does this meant that they leave rubble behind also? since they are destroyed as blocking terrain?
granted its not blocking terrain but it acts like it when being destroyed, so it seems that they would leave rubble behind.

[Harpua]

does this meant that they leave rubble behind also? since they are destroyed as blocking terrain?
granted its not blocking terrain but it acts like it when being destroyed, so it seems that they would leave rubble behind.

They would not. Destroying Blocking terrain and leaving rubble are two separate sections of the rulebook. This is why (red and yellow) objects leave no rubble.

[Maraud]

They would not. Destroying Blocking terrain and leaving rubble are two separate sections of the rulebook. This is why (red and yellow) objects leave no rubble.

yes but in this case you are saying that they are blocking terrain for being destroyed. When blocking terrain is destroyed then it leaves rubble.
So there for when u destroy one they leave rubble since they are blocking terrain for being destroyed.

Like you said thats why yellow and red objects do not leave rubble b/s they follow the rules of blocking terrain but are not blocking terrain.

[imaleximsweet]

yes but in this case you are saying that they are blocking terrain for being destroyed. When blocking terrain is destroyed then it leaves rubble.
So there for when u destroy one they leave rubble since they are blocking terrain for being destroyed.

Like you said thats why yellow and red objects do not leave rubble b/s they follow the rules of blocking terrain but are not blocking terrain.

i dont understand what you are trying to say?

Dopplegangers and red and yellow objects follow the rules for destroying blocking terrain.

but they are not blocking terrain, which is why they do not leave rubble because after they are destroyed they are no longer being treated as blocking terrain, only during the time period in which they are being destroyed...

hope that helps.

[BigSoph]

i dont understand what you are trying to say?

Dopplegangers and red and yellow objects follow the rules for destroying blocking terrain.

but they are not blocking terrain, which is why they do not leave rubble because after they are destroyed they are no longer being treated as blocking terrain, only during the time period in which they are being destroyed...

hope that helps.

So now Thoriot's SP can destroy objects?

[imaleximsweet]

So now Thoriot's SP can destroy objects?

i dont see why not? they all follow the same rules do they not?

[brojase]

So now Thoriot's SP can destroy objects?

i dont see why not? they all follow the same rules do they not?

No...they are not destroyed as if they are blocking terrain. They are destroyed using the rules for destroying blocking terrain. There's a big difference there.

Harpua posted this on page 1 of this discussion...Objects follow the rules of destroying blocking terrain (although they do not have other properties of blocking terrain in any other situation) whereas dopplegangers are not terrain unless they are being destroyed (in which case they are considered to be blocking terrain).

[imaleximsweet]

Harpua posted this on page 1 of this discussion...Objects follow the rules of destroying blocking terrain (although they do not have other properties of blocking terrain in any other situation) whereas dopplegangers are not terrain unless they are being destroyed (in which case they are considered to be blocking terrain).

it helps when people read the whole thread...

[brojase]

it helps when people read the whole thread...

LOL...maybe, but then you look at the clock and think 'where did that hour go?'...

[imaleximsweet]

LOL...maybe, but then you look at the clock and think 'where did that hour go?'...

my response;

in the bank of knowledge that is your mind

[brojase]

my response;

in the bank of knowledge that is your mind

:) The glass beith half full, mine friend...the glass beith half full.

[Maraud]

i dont understand what you are trying to say?

Dopplegangers and red and yellow objects follow the rules for destroying blocking terrain.

but they are not blocking terrain, which is why they do not leave rubble because after they are destroyed they are no longer being treated as blocking terrain, only during the time period in which they are being destroyed...

hope that helps.

Harpua posted this on page 1 of this discussion...Objects follow the rules of destroying blocking terrain (although they do not have other properties of blocking terrain in any other situation) whereas dopplegangers are not terrain unless they are being destroyed (in which case they are considered to be blocking terrain).

it helps when people read the whole thread...

That is my whole point yes they are not Blocking terrain for anything but being destroyed.

Doppelganger tokens are destroyed as though it is blocking terrain.

With what people are trying to say is that they will be blocking terrain when they are destroyed, it leads to them leaving rubble.

[canoelloco]

It takes the amount of damage as Blocking terrain would to destroy them thus making it simple to understand what you need to do to destroy them but they are not terrain so I say Thor's Mighty Chariot SP cannot destroy them.

[imaleximsweet]

That is my whole point yes they are not Blocking terrain for anything but being destroyed.

Doppelganger tokens are destroyed as though it is blocking terrain.

With what people are trying to say is that they will be blocking terrain when they are destroyed, it leads to them leaving rubble.

oh ok i got you now, and the "read thread" comment wasnt directed toward you..

[imaleximsweet]

It takes the amount of damage as Blocking terrain would to destroy them thus making it simple to understand what you need to do to destroy them but they are not terrain so I say Thor's Mighty Chariot SP cannot destroy them.

at the risk of sounding like a jerk, read the whole thread please.

the bolded portion is completely wrong

blocking terrain has its own portion in the rule book, 3 damage is only one of the ways you destory blocking terrain, it is not the only way.

i dont feel like listing all the other ways for the fifth time...

please read through the thread before joining in the conversation and inserting things that are untrue about the power, or blocking terrain.

its not a difficult concept to get guys,

anything that destroys blocking terrain can destroy dopplegangers.

end of thread.

[canoelloco]

[QUOTE=imaleximsweet;4383435]at the risk of sounding like a jerk, read the whole thread please.
Your Right about this one. Keep your own opinions please I don't bash yours don't do it to me. Thankyou.


1.blocking terrain has its own portion in the rule book, 3 damage is only one of the ways you destory blocking terrain, it is not the only way.

1. I understand that many powers can destroy Blocking terrain but dopplegangers are not terrain but special markers. And I know that destroying them doesn't leave rubble markers.

many people have their own ways of ruling things so I will continue to do so. I now leave this thread.

[imaleximsweet]

Your Right about this one. Keep your own opinions please I don't bash yours don't do it to me. Thankyou.


1.blocking terrain has its own portion in the rule book, 3 damage is only one of the ways you destory blocking terrain, it is not the only way.

1. I understand that many powers can destroy Blocking terrain but dopplegangers are not terrain but special markers. And I know that destroying them doesn't leave rubble markers.

many people have their own ways of ruling things so I will continue to do so. I now leave this thread.


its not opinion bashing. im telling YOU the facts

we've already established dopplegangers are not blocking terrain.

but when you go to destroy them you treat them AS IF THEY WERE BLOCKING TERRAIN.

and there's only ONE WAY of ruling, and its the RIGHT WAY.

this is not my "opinion" on the matter, my opinion DOESN'T matter.

this is fact.

you cannot debate fact.

this is a fact; Dopplegangers are to be treated as blocking terrain when you go to destroy them

this is also fact; Dopplegangers are special markers

this is ALSO fact; Thor's Chariot destroys blocking terrain as a free action

this is ALSO fact; Wall buster destroys blocking terrain as a free action

this is ALSO fact; three damage destroys blocking terrain

this is ALSO fact;
DOPPLEGANGERS CAN BE DESTROYED BY THOR'S CHARIOT AS A FREE ACTION!!!

SAYING SOMETHING IS TO BE TREATED "AS IF" IT IS SOMETHING MEANS FOR THE PURPOSES IT IS REFFERING TO, TREAT IT AS IF IT IS INDEED THAT SOMETHING

from my earlier post.
GOLDEN LASSO: Gold can use Incapacitate, but only as part of a ranged combat action (as if he had a range of 6).

Quote
TIE UP: Wonder Woman can use Super Strength and Incapacitate (as if she had a range of 6). When she uses Incapacitate and successfully hits a target opposing character, you can give an action token to a second opposing character that has zero or one token that is adjacent to the target, if the attack roll would also hit the second character.
Quote
LASSO: Wonder Girl can use Incapacitate as if she had a range value of 6. If she successfully hits a target with a ranged combat attack when using Incapacitate, after resolving the action you can put the target in an unoccupied square of clear terrain adjacent to and at the same elevation as Wonder Girl.
Quote
TIE UP: Wonder Girl can use Incapacitate as if she had a range value of 6. When she uses Incapacitate and successfully hits a target opposing character, you can give an action token to a second opposing character that has zero or one action token that is adjacent to the target, if the attack roll would also hit the second character.
Quote
LASSO: Wonder Woman can use Incapacitate as if she has a range of 8.
Quote
WILT PLANT GROWTH: Floronic Man can use Smoke Cloud as if he has a range of 4; when he uses Smoke Cloud, he can place up to 8 hindering terrain markers if all markers are placed 2 or fewer squares from him.
Quote
VISAGE OF SORROW: Johnny Sorrow can use Pulse Wave (as if he had a range of 10); his damage value becomes 2 for the attack.
Quote
OUTTA MY FACE: Arkillo can use Toughness. Once per turn, Arkillo can use Barrier (as if he had a range of 4) as a free action, but he can place only up to two blocking terrain markers.
Quote
DREAM MANIPULATION: Doctor Destiny can use Mind Control as if he had When he does, he takes no damage due to the point value of a successfully hit target if it had at least one action token when it was hit.
Quote
MASS MANIPULATION: Psycho-Man can use Mind Control as if he had:bolt::bolt::bolt: .
Quote
DUCTILE: Mr. Fantastic can use Super Senses and Barrier (as if he had a range of 0). When a Barrier terrain marker placed by Mr. Fantastic is destroyed, roll a d6; on a result of 1, deal 1 damage to Mr. Fantastic.


in EVERY example shown above said character is to be treated AS IF they had _____ (let's say range)

Mr Fantastic for example; can use barrier, (as if he had a range of 0)

by your profound logic, Mr. Fantastic will be able to use barrier at a range of 6 because thats what's on his base, because being treated "AS IF" does not make it so.

i could do this example for every one of those powers, and if you sit there and say i am wrong, i will.

THINK about it. for just ONE MINUTE.

would you (universal you) tell someone (especially a noob) that Mr. Fantastic can use barrier at 6 range???

of course not?! that would be ridiculous because if "As if" meant nothing (as the counter argumenters are saying) then why even write it that way

the ruling HAS TO STAY CONSISTANT.

as harupa ssaid and llyrrghmyll said;

IF (x) CAN DESTROY (z)
AND
IF (y) IS TO BE TREATED AS (z) FOR PURPOSE OF DESTRUCTION
THEN
(x) CAN DESTROY (y)

IT IS LITERALLY THAT SIMPLE
any confusion read the spoilers
(x) is anything that states it can destroys blocking terrain, or remove it from the field in some way
(z) is normal blocking terrain being destroyed
(y) is anything that in it's explaination says it is to be treated "as if" it was blocking terrain for destruction purposes

i can keep going using examples from above???

[bluesummers]

Since the can has been closed and then re-opened, I'm taking the opportunity to throw in my two cents:

Doppelgangers may be destroyed as though they are Blocking Terrain. This statement does not, in any way, refer to the 3 damage method of destroying terrain. It does not state "Doppelgangers may be destroyed by recieving 3 damage (similar to blocking terrain)". Any limiters put upon the statement are done-so by outside information being applied to the statement by players, but not by the statement or its application to the rules of the game.
The statement is very straight forward. 'May be destroyed as if it were blocking terrain'. Therefore, anything that destroys blocking terrain may destroy the Doppelganger.

The statement does not, however, say that Doppelgangers leave rubble as if it were blocking terrain. That would require a second qualifying statement, which doesn't currently exist. This is much the same way that, even though they can be destroyed as if they were blocking terrain, they don't block line of fire like blocking terrain, nor does a figure incur knock-back damage when being tossed against them, because those would, again, require another qualifying statement to that effect.

All that is there is a general statement, they may be destroyed in the same way that blocking terrain is destroyed.

[bluesummers]

In other words:

ImalexImsweet is correct.

I'm sad to see so many hurt feelings and bruised egos on this board. :/

[imaleximsweet]

this is the nice version of what i said.

sadly i stated the same niceness like 30 times in this thread....

Since the can has been closed and then re-opened, I'm taking the opportunity to throw in my two cents:

Doppelgangers may be destroyed as though they are Blocking Terrain. This statement does not, in any way, refer to the 3 damage method of destroying terrain. It does not state "Doppelgangers may be destroyed by recieving 3 damage (similar to blocking terrain)". Any limiters put upon the statement are done-so by outside information being applied to the statement by players, but not by the statement or its application to the rules of the game.
The statement is very straight forward. 'May be destroyed as if it were blocking terrain'. Therefore, anything that destroys blocking terrain may destroy the Doppelganger.

The statement does not, however, say that Doppelgangers leave rubble as if it were blocking terrain. That would require a second qualifying statement, which doesn't currently exist. This is much the same way that, even though they can be destroyed as if they were blocking terrain, they don't block line of fire like blocking terrain, nor does a figure incur knock-back damage when being tossed against them, because those would, again, require another qualifying statement to that effect.

All that is there is a general statement, they may be destroyed in the same way that blocking terrain is destroyed.

[imaleximsweet]

In other words:

ImalexImsweet is correct.

I'm sad to see so many hurt feelings and bruised egos on this board. :/

i dont mean to be so mean about it, i tried REALLLLYYY HARD not to....

i really dislike when people confuse fact and opinion.

and i hate repeating myself

and i hate when people don't read what is said throughout the thread and insert their false statements reguarding what the power is without giving a valid reason why.

(and they completely ignore the evidence that proves them wrong)

[bluesummers]

Yeah, you posted yours while I was typing mine. :P

I'm an English Major, and was a play-tester for Star Wars CCG and Legend of the Five Rings (Diamond Edition). Complex wording debates are what I do.

[imaleximsweet]

Yeah, you posted yours while I was typing mine. :P

I'm an English Major, and was a play-tester for Star Wars CCG and Legend of the Five Rings (Diamond Edition). Complex wording debates are what I do.

ya haha, we seemed to have this back and forth for a bit.

i if anything want the ruling to stay consistant to what is already in place (in terms of the other "treated as if")

and you worded yours so much more elegantly than i, i was kinda in a rage-like typing state... :rolleyes:

[Maraud]

All that is there is a general statement, they may be destroyed in the same way that blocking terrain is destroyed.

then tell me what happens when you destroy blocking terrain?

With objects it says that they follow the rules of destroying blocking terrain (3 damage and not rubble)

But like they have said when X is destroyed then it leaves Y.
If Z is X for the purpose of being destroyed then it leaves Y.

Its that simple.

[bluesummers]

No, you have a point, but I still disagree with you, Maraud.

I would still argue that the act of being destroyed as though it were blocking terrain, and the act of leaving rubble as though it were blocking terrain, are each actually two seperate functions, each requiring their own identifier in the statement of the Special Power.
For instance, objects are destroyed 'using the rules for destroying blocking terrain' (SI rule book, page 13) but they do not leave debris behind. If you look on that page it does not say, as you suppose, that objects are 'destroyed using blocking terrain rules, but do not leave Debris'. Rather, it just says that they are destroyed.
Conversely, Immobile Objects are also destroyed in the same manner, as they are objects and under that blanketing banner, but they have a second qualifying statement that says they leave debris behind when destroyed.

I can see the confusion, as the Barrier Power creates blocking terrain, and when it is destroyed it does leave debris until the power's effect ends. These are tokens, and they do leave debris despite the lack of a qualifying statement in the power description. But the qualifying statement to this effect does exist in the Player's Guide, where the power was clarified by Wizkids to leave Debris.

For further evidence, look on page 12 of the Player's Guide under clarification for Trigon. His Doppelganger entry states that any of his Doppelgangers that are destroyed are removed from the game. No statement is made saying they leave Debris tokens.
Furthermore, when Barrier tokens are removed from the game, they also remove any Debris tokens caused by the destruction of any related Barrier Tokens. Once can assume from this instance that even if Trigon's Doppelganger left Debris behind, it would be removed from the game instantly along with the Doppelganger token itself, if consistency is to be maintained.

[zero_cochrane]

Complex wording debates are what I do.This isn't even complex.

It's like somebody saying "Sure, Namor's special power says that he can use Super Strength... but it doesn't say he can carry objects, so I don't think he can".

[bluesummers]

Well, I'd agree with you on that, but people sure have a hard time agreeing on it, regardless. :/

Believe me, compared to present, presence, and Presence rules from Star Wars, this is cakewalk.

[llyrghmnghyll]

This isn't even complex.

It's like somebody saying "Sure, Namor's special power says that he can use Super Strength... but it doesn't say he can carry objects, so I don't think he can".

I really don't see how this is that complex either, it's very basic logic (no offense intended Bluesummers).

[as_bat]

its not opinion bashing. im telling YOU the facts...


I don´t know how the debate build up so high.
I just posted my opinion in one of the first 2 pages and didn´t read anymore.
I´m one of the guys that think that the chariot cannot remove dopplegangers.
You have a very good argument, I don´t see it that way and there is no players guide entry to sustain what you are telling me.
I understand your point, I don´t agree with it.

Maybe I´m just plain stubborn, could be... Does it matter?
It´s my opinion and your explanation is not good enough for me.

I´m still waiting a reasonable explanation to the issue ATAs that can´t be
copied by wildcards, its a rule cause its in the players guide, but it contradicts whatever we have been told about wildcards and ATAs...
So... all your explanations are a "I suppose this works like this".
As I supposed that ATAs should be copied.

You just rule it your way and I´ll rule it my way until we have a confirmation from the next RA (if we ever get one again).

If you are right about this good for you!
If I am right about this... so what? Lets keep playing and having fun!

But in the meantime, please, relax man.

[krusticlese]

Wow. imaleximsweet you got a little d-baggy there. If you've already stated your opinion, why continue to try to convince others by YELLING over the internet. If some other dude wants to play it his way , let them. No amount of literature or rules docs you could provide would convince them otherwise so it's no use getting super smarmy over.

I don't happen to agree with you, but you also aren't the rules arb, so what you say isn't necessarily gospel either. There have been other rulings that I thought were pretty cut and dry that ended up being ruled the opposite way (contrary to all logic) which is why I happened to mention in my first post that it could use clarification.

Everyone else seemed to be having a rational debate until you went all ape-poop crazy typing in all caps. You certainly didn't win me over.

[BigSoph]

It takes the amount of damage as Blocking terrain would to destroy them thus making it simple to understand what you need to do to destroy them but they are not terrain so I say Thor's Mighty Chariot SP cannot destroy them.

Try screaming... that should prove your point...

And, no Thoriot cannot destroy objects? Do you know why? Even though they are destroyed using the same rules as blocking, they are not blocking terrain

What does Trigon's power say to use? Special tokens.

[brojase]

Try screaming... that should prove your point...

And, no Thoriot cannot destroy objects? Do you know why? Even though they are destroyed using the same rules as blocking, they are not blocking terrain

What does Trigon's power say to use? Special tokens.

And this is the post where I officially say we're going to have to agree to disagree...

You have some good points, we have some good points...without official rules arb, we could go around and around on this. Neither side is budging, even though we both feel like we have the right answers.

Maybe if we were talking about something simpler, like religion or politics...but Thors Chariot/Dopplegangers? No way ;)

[AbsoluteRob]

imaleximsweet,

The issue here is not nearly as clear cut as you're implying in your posts. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're asserting "as if" equates "is" but only under special circumstances. Meaning, Trigon's Dopplegangers gain all the qualities of terrain - not just some of the qualities but all of the qualities of terrain - only when someone attempts to destroy them but are simply special tokens under all other circumstances.

This is where I believe your assertion falls apart.

Trigon's card specifically says the dopplegangers are not terrain. There is nothing on the card that says they gain all the qualities of terrain including becoming terrain under special circumstances such as when someone attempts to destroy them. While the dopplegangers have some of the characteristics of terrain when someone attempts to destroy them as per Trigon's card, they remain special tokens. They do not become terrain.

Thor's Mighty Chariot's card says it can destroy terrain. It does not say it can destroy items that gain some of the qualities of terrain under special circumstances. Just terrain and only terrain.

Explain to me how the Dopplegangers become terrain when the card specifically says they are not terrain. If you can do that, I'll gladly reconsider my assessment of the situation. Saying "as if" equates "is" doesn't cut it because it is countered but another section of text on the card, IMO. You'll have to bring more than that into the equation to convince me.

Robert

[VonToggle]

Okay, I've just read this entire thread. I have gained some massive respect for some members of this board. Hell, I never expected an interwebs debate to go beyond "Because" and "Your gay", so you Realmers have earned a special place in my heart.

Now, as far as I can see it, two thought processes are happening.
#1: Doppelgangers are destroyed like blocking terrain. Anything that states "this destroys blocking terrain" can there for destroy Doppelgangers.

Logical, straightforward, and the one I'd most likely side with

#2 Focuses on the words "are not characters or terrain" and close the book there. No further arguments, "are not terrain", then not destroyed.

I cannot agree with statement #2, it seems to neglect a large portion of the argument.
It perhaps makes its conclusion with out including all of the available data.

Unless the argument made is simply that Thor's power couldn't target "not terrain" to begin with. If he can't target it, he can't destroy it, and it cannot be treated as terrain to be destroyed.

So, the way #2 holds merit is if we argue Trigons statement not terrain" with Thors Chariots "At the beginning of your turn, as a free action Thor's Mighty Chariot may destroy any walls or blocking terrain adjacent to it

The argument shouldn't be, "Can things that destroy blocking terrain destroy doppelgangers who are destroyed by terrain (the answer is yes)";

But instead:"Is (specifically)Thor being adjacent to a doppelganger the same as being adjacent to blocking terrain?"

Or at least as best that I can tell.

[AbsoluteRob]

Von,

Well said. I'm on the side that says Thor's Mighty Chariot can only target blocking terrain, not items that have just some of the characteristics of blocking terrain. It's very specific. Your question brings to mind something that supports my assessment.

"Is (specifically)Thor being adjacent to a doppelganger the same as being adjacent to blocking terrain?"

The answer is no since Dopplegangers aren't blocking terrain as stated on the card. Adjacency doesn't equate the dopplegangers gaining some of the characteristics of blocking terrain. They gain them only when attacked, not prior to said attack.

Based on that assessment, it's reasonable to say Thor's Mighty Chariot can't even target the dopplegangers with the free action in the first place. The dopplegangers have to be blocking terrain in order for the power to activate and that is not the case.

Robert

[Harpua]

Von,

Well said. I'm on the side that says Thor's Mighty Chariot can only target blocking terrain, not items that have just some of the characteristics of blocking terrain. It's very specific. Your question brings to mind something that supports my assessment.

"Is (specifically)Thor being adjacent to a doppelganger the same as being adjacent to blocking terrain?"

The answer is no since Dopplegangers aren't blocking terrain as stated on the card. Adjacency doesn't equate the dopplegangers gaining some of the characteristics of blocking terrain. They gain them only when attacked, not prior to said attack. This means Thor's Mighty Chariot can't even target them with the free action in the first place. They'd have to be blocking terrain in order for the power to activate and that is not the case.

Robert

Hmm...like how you cannot declare a ranged attack against a WC already copying Batman to make him "confirm" that choice.

This is an interesting perspective.

[robot_100]

After reading this thread, it seems that The Dopplegangers should be destroyed by Thor as he destroys them like terrin.

But, VonT.'s point goes over that completely by another part of Thors power.

The complete wording of the special powers should have been written out fully very early in the argument.

[brojase]

Von,

Well said. I'm on the side that says Thor's Mighty Chariot can only target blocking terrain, not items that have just some of the characteristics of blocking terrain. It's very specific. Your question brings to mind something that supports my assessment.

Based on that assessment, it's reasonable to say Thor's Mighty Chariot can't even target the dopplegangers with the free action in the first place. The dopplegangers have to be blocking terrain in order for the power to activate and that is not the case.

Robert

However...would anyone be able to target dopplegangers then? It seems like the same argument could then be applied to anyone, so that no one could target dopplegangers because they are not terrain, specifically.

That is, if 5 natural damage Supes wanted to destroy the doppleganger, because he couldn't target it, because it is not terrain.

After reading Vons post, this seems to be really where the crux of the argument is. I would still say that he could, because if they can be targeted by anyone at a point during the turn, then Thor should be able to target them at the beginning of the turn.

[imaleximsweet]

imaleximsweet,

The issue here is not nearly as clear cut as you're implying in your posts. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're asserting "as if" equates "is" but only under special circumstances. Meaning, Trigon's Dopplegangers gain all the qualities of terrain - not just some of the qualities but all of the qualities of terrain - only when someone attempts to destroy them but are simply special tokens under all other circumstances.

This is where I believe your assertion falls apart.

Trigon's card specifically says the dopplegangers are not terrain. There is nothing on the card that says they gain all the qualities of terrain including becoming terrain under special circumstances such as when someone attempts to destroy them. While the dopplegangers have some of the characteristics of terrain when someone attempts to destroy them as per Trigon's card, they remain special tokens. They do not become terrain.

Thor's Mighty Chariot's card says it can destroy terrain. It does not say it can destroy items that gain some of the qualities of terrain under special circumstances. Just terrain and only terrain.

Explain to me how the Dopplegangers become terrain when the card specifically says they are not terrain. If you can do that, I'll gladly reconsider my assessment of the situation. Saying "as if" equates "is" doesn't cut it because it is countered but another section of text on the card, IMO. You'll have to bring more than that into the equation to convince me.

Robert

i just quoted this one, even though i'm gonna respond to the others as well

First off, you make a solid counterpoint.

secondly, for the purposes of destruction and only those purposes do dopplegangers become blocking terrain.

they dont leave rubble because after destruction is complete they are no longer treated as blocking.

similar to how character (x) can use incap as if it had a range of (y),

would you say that character (x) can only use incap at his printed range?

why or why not? (i've proposed this question about 5 times and it seems to go ignored)

Secondly, i wasnt yelling, just bolding and capitalising because i seem to go ignored sometimes and it frustrates me. (yes its childish, so sue me i'm 19)

[imaleximsweet]

However...would anyone be able to target dopplegangers then? It seems like the same argument could then be applied to anyone, so that no one could target dopplegangers because they are not terrain, specifically.

That is, if 5 natural damage Supes wanted to destroy the doppleganger, because he couldn't target it, because it is not terrain.

After reading Vons post, this seems to be really where the crux of the argument is. I would still say that he could, because if they can be targeted by anyone at a point during the turn, then Thor should be able to target them at the beginning of the turn.

to tag along to this, the beginning of your turn is anytime before a tokenable action is taken right?

(like for instance, you can autoregen, outwit, perplex outsiders, roll for sentry then do Thor's special power in that order?)

[brojase]

to tag along to this, the beginning of your turn is anytime before a tokenable action is taken right?

(like for instance, you can autoregen, outwit, perplex outsiders, roll for sentry then do Thor's special power in that order?)

Mostly yes, although Harpua often chimes in with the example of ICwO, and how you can use all of your tokenable actions and still be at the beginning of your turn.

[The Sandman]

I have read the entire argument and came away with one thing. If I am involved in a battle with Thor (or Trigon) and I have the other, then I will ask the judge before the match on how he/she rules it until official word. I see the logic in both arguments and we really just need to know the intent of the power from the makers in order to accept the official ruling. Thanks for the info everone.

[Owlman]

However...would anyone be able to target dopplegangers then? It seems like the same argument could then be applied to anyone, so that no one could target dopplegangers because they are not terrain, specifically.

That is, if 5 natural damage Supes wanted to destroy the doppleganger, because he couldn't target it, because it is not terrain.

After reading Vons post, this seems to be really where the crux of the argument is. I would still say that he could, because if they can be targeted by anyone at a point during the turn, then Thor should be able to target them at the beginning of the turn.
Attacks can target a number of things (blocking, object, enemy pieces, etc). Attacks can target special tokens, I should think.

However, doppleganger tokens are special tokens. They cannot be targeted as terrain. Thoriot could attack the Dopplegangers, but he can't target special tokens with a power that specifically targets blocking terrain and walls. I think that Von makes a good point.

Huh, This is an interesting new way to look at this whole debate.

[Armourgeddon2K]

This thread is a fantastic example of why we need a Rules arbitrator/clarification.

Almost everything that has been posted here makes sense (there was a faulty equation in there somewhere) BUT we are still no closer to knowing which is TRUE.

The intent was probably to have Trigon have a very irritating SP and for Thor's chariot to be able to smash through terrain in a very god-like way. I don't think either designers even considered that you might want Thor to smash through Trigon and his neferious dopplegangers. NECA please appoint a RA!

Everyone else* seemed to be repeating themselves so I thought I would too. :knockedou

I know that if I was playing and this situation arose and the Judge ruled

1) YES - because Dopplegangers can be destroyed 'as if they are blocking terrain' and the Chariot can destroy blocking terrain, I'd be happy.

if he ruled

2) NO - because 'Thor's Mighty Chariot may destroy ... blocking terrain adjacent to it' and the Dopplegangers are not terrain, then I'd also be happy.

I think I'd even be happy if he said "I don't know and until NECA/Wizkids rule it lets just roll a dice to decide."

Them seems to be the options - please pay your money and take your choice!
NECA please appoint an RA!

* Everyone else is an exaggeration used solely for the purpose of comic effect and is not intended to include you if you haven't posted multiple times in this thread. :)

[brojase]

Attacks can target a number of things (blocking, object, enemy pieces, etc). Attacks can target special tokens, I should think.

However, doppleganger tokens are special tokens. They cannot be targeted as terrain. Thoriot could attack the Dopplegangers, but he can't target special tokens with a power that specifically targets blocking terrain and walls. I think that Von makes a good point.

Huh, This is an interesting new way to look at this whole debate.

I couldn't find anything either way about special tokens...my thinking is the reason that is is because the special tokens are going to be just special forms of some type of existing type of terrain (hindering/blocking). So I don't know if the fact that they are special tokens plays into the targeting. It could, I just can't find anything on special tokens.

[BigSoph]

Attacks can target a number of things (blocking, object, enemy pieces, etc). Attacks can target special tokens, I should think.

However, doppleganger tokens are special tokens. They cannot be targeted as terrain. Thoriot could attack the Dopplegangers, but he can't target special tokens with a power that specifically targets blocking terrain and walls. I think that Von makes a good point.

Huh, This is an interesting new way to look at this whole debate.

You cannot target Special tokens per se.

For example, the special token used in Lazarus Pit is a placeholder, as is The Clown Prince of Crime's Jokerfish

The Precision Demolition feat uses special markers to show where a wall is destroyed without rubble

When you place a special marker, it has its own characteristics for that given use, designated by the feat, power or scenario that brought it into existence

And all caps, especially oversized letters, is screaming

[llyrghmnghyll]

Von,

Well said. I'm on the side that says Thor's Mighty Chariot can only target blocking terrain, not items that have just some of the characteristics of blocking terrain. It's very specific. Your question brings to mind something that supports my assessment.

"Is (specifically)Thor being adjacent to a doppelganger the same as being adjacent to blocking terrain?"

The answer is no since Dopplegangers aren't blocking terrain as stated on the card. Adjacency doesn't equate the dopplegangers gaining some of the characteristics of blocking terrain. They gain them only when attacked, not prior to said attack.

Based on that assessment, it's reasonable to say Thor's Mighty Chariot can't even target the dopplegangers with the free action in the first place. The dopplegangers have to be blocking terrain in order for the power to activate and that is not the case.

Robert

This is an interesting argument, but I believe it still breaks down.

Character X cannot target a Special token used to designate where a wall has fallen. Character X cannot target a Special token used for purposes of Lazarus Pit.

Yet for the purpose of Doppelganger Tokens Character X must be able to target the tokens at some point. The only point at which X can target these tokens then is when X goes to destroy them. This directly indicates that Destruction is the point of targeting, and in this they are destroyed like blocking terrain. Which Means Thoriot's still a go.

[Owlman]

You cannot target Special tokens per se.

For example, the special token used in Lazarus Pit is a placeholder, as is The Clown Prince of Crime's Jokerfish

The Precision Demolition feat uses special markers to show where a wall is destroyed without rubble

When you place a special marker, it has its own characteristics for that given use, designated by the feat, power or scenario that brought it into existence

And all caps, especially oversized letters, is screaming

Are there any other powers, feats, bfc's, etc. other than Doppleganger and Jokerfish that leave special tokens on the field that actively interact with the othre game elements?

What I mean is that Lazarus pit and Precision Demolition leave placeholders that denote that which is not present on the field (a downed character or rubble). Jokerfish doesn't mention whether or not the fish can be destroyed, so are the Doppleganger tokens the only special tokens of their type in the game? Or are there others with which we can try to compare the dopplegangers?

[bluesummers]

Thank you, Brojase, for making the point I was about to throw out about Special Markers and targeting.

Targeting is generally reserved for specific things. You can use ranged or close combat actions againsted targeted walls, blocking terrain, or characters. You cannot target or attack hindering terrain, for example, unless you have a SP or feat that allows you to somehow clear that terrain.
There is no rule stating specifically that you cannot target Hindering Terrain, but there is no precident for it in the rules, where as there are rules that specifically state, 'you may attack an enemy figure, 'you may attack blocking terrain', 'you may attack a wall'.
Similarly, there is no rule that states you may target or attack Special Tokens, except for those that are a part of the Power which created them. For instance, there is no way to attack a 'Joker Fish' token.

Given that, it could be possible for a person to argue that no one could destroy the Doppelganger tokens at all.
"I use Thoriot's SP to destroy it as if it is blocking terrain." "But it is not blocking terrain, it is a Special Token so you cannot target it."By that same arguement
"I use my 3 damage to destroy the Doppelganger as if it were blocking terrain." "But it is not blocking terrain, it is a special token, so it cannot be the target of an attack." "But it says that it is destroyed as if it were blocking terrain." "But it is not blocking terrain, so it is not. Attacks actions cannot target Special Tokens."

But, the SP Doppelganger DOES say that the token should be able to be destroyed, and this brings us to an interesting suppostion.
Since the only way to destroy the Special Token, even by simply hitting it for 3 damage, would be for it to be targeted, we must assume that the intention of the rule is "This Special Token may be TARGETED and destroyed as though it were blocking terrain."

The addition of that one word opens up so much. Can Attack actions target Blocking Terrain? Yes. Does that targeting result in the subsequent destruction of the terrain via delivery of damage? Yes.
Also, does Thor's SP Target Blocking Terrain? Yes. So would it then Target, and ultimately destroy the Doppelganger? If it can be targeted and destroyed both in the same manner, then it would read that yes, you could.

So, it seems to me that you have to argue one way or the other. Either the Special Tokens cannot be targeted by anything for destruction because of their wording, or they CAN be targeted because Destruction implies prior Targeting. If you argue the second camp, then the Thoriot should be able to destroy the Special Tokens because his power Targets the blocking terrain in just the same way an attack for 3 damage would.

And before it even gets thrown out again, no, this doesn't make Thor's SP work on objects, because though objects are Destroyed as though they were Blocking Terrain, they are Targeted as though they were Objects. The rulebook does make a point in seperating how they are targeted and treated.

[AbsoluteRob]

Il,

That doesn't work for the reason I stated in my previous post. A requirement of the special power offered by Thor's Mighty Chariot is the target must be adjacent blocking terrain. The dopplegangers aren't blocking terrain at any point in time during the game. If they gain even some of the characteristics of blocking terrain, it is only _after_ the declaration of the attack on them. By that point, it's too late for Thor's Mighty Chariot to use its power. In order for the power to work, the dopplegangers need to meet the requirement _prior_ to declaration. Not as a part of or after it.

It is very much like the situation described by Harpua:

"like how you cannot declare a ranged attack against a WC already copying Batman to make him "confirm" that choice."

Robert

[bluesummers]

But Robert, if that is the case, "The dopplegangers aren't blocking terrain at any point in time during the game. If they gain even some of the characteristics of blocking terrain, it is only _after_ the declaration of the attack on them." then how can they be destroyed at all, as you cannot declare an attack against Special Tokens? Even the Doppelganger power itself gives no way that the token can be targeted it is only 'Destroyed as if it were blocking terrain.'

So, either it can be targeted by things than can Destroy Blocking Terrain, or it cannot.

And also, its worth clarifying that you cannot 'target a WC copying the Batman TA to make them confirm their choice' because you cannot draw a line of fire to someone using the Batman TA. Its not even an option; might as well be a wall there.
You can draw a line of fire to any other square though, or Special Tokens... but can you do anything with that line of fire? Again, Targeting.

[szude]

I think that this is very clear.

Dopplegangers can be destroyed as if they were blocking terrain. It is not relevant that the Doppelganger is not actually blocking terrain, it is still destroyed as though it were. That means that anything that destroys blocking terrain can destroy a Doppelganger. I do not see how this could be any more clear.

Thor's Mighty Chariot can destroy blocking terrain, so it can destroy Doppelgangers. QED.

"Doppleganger tokens are not characters or terrain" means that they are not treated as blocking terrain in any other way (for example, they do not block line of fire), but for the purpose of destruction, they are.

If Trigon's special power was intended to mean specifically "Doppelgangers can be destroyed by an attack that deals 3 damage" then it would have been written that way.

I agree.

If the people saying Thor CAN'T destroy dopplegangers had their way, by letter of the law, NO ONE COULD. After all, there's nothing in the rulebook about figures destroying dopplegangers. Only rules describing characters destroying blocking terrain. And "since dopplegangers aren't blocking terrain", no one can destroy them.

In other words
1) figures with 3 damage (via BCF, SS whatever) can destroy blocking terrain. That's ALL the rule book allows
2) Thoriot can destroy blocking terrain via SP
3) Either both 1&2, or neither, apply to destroying dopplegangers. I'm going to go on record as saying "both".

[llyrghmnghyll]

Il,

That doesn't work for the reason I stated in my previous post. A requirement of the special power offered by Thor's Mighty Chariot is the target must be adjacent blocking terrain. The dopplegangers aren't blocking terrain at any point in time during the game. If they gain even some of the characteristics of blocking terrain, it is only _after_ the declaration of the attack on them. By that point, it's too late for Thor's Mighty Chariot to use its power. In order for the power to work, the dopplegangers need to meet the requirement _prior_ to declaration. Not as a part of or after it.

It is very much like the situation described by Harpua:

"like how you cannot declare a ranged attack against a WC already copying Batman to make him "confirm" that choice."

Robert

If Doppelgangers aren't blocking terrain until after they've been targeted, then they never are blocking terrain. There are no rules for targeting special markers, i.e. they can not be targeted, whether by Thoriot or by any other effect including a normal attack. If this was the intention then the phrase "but can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain" is totally irrelevant, it's like saying Oracle on her card can be destroyed as if she were blocking terrain, which doesn't matter because she can't be targeted.

In this case the phrase "but can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain" must be understood to include that they are targeted like blocking terrain when they are being destroyed. Not understanding it this way means they cannot be destroyed. which invalidates the whole clause, which is - to quote Spock - highly illogical.


The Batman T.A. copying is different because there are two deciding agents at this exchange, with a series of choices which lead to an impossible outcome. It essentially works as though the deciding parties decisions occur simultaneously with one possible outcome being an impossible outcome, so the impossible outcome is assumed meaning that the actions leading to that outcome are impossible - either the targeting is impossible or declaring Batman TA is impossible. The second choice makes no sense - if declaring Batman TA was impossible it should be spelled out like Power Cosmic or Outsiders, hence the former decision is impossible.

The impossible outcome in this case is that Doppelganger tokens can't be destroyed like Blocking terrain unless we assume that "but can be destroyed as if they are blocking terrain" includes targeting. Since as I said before one choice includes both making invulnerable pieces and making a property of the power meaningless it is only logical to assume that the other choice is the correct one.

[jackstar7]

Good arguments. I will now back the Pro-Destroy position.

This is better than politics! Arguments are actually thought out and (generally) clear! Yay!

[AbsoluteRob]

Hi everyone,

Great discussion, though I do question assumptions made in some of the posts. Not the logic but the assumptions used to support the logic. So, I'm going to go back to something we all know and understand. Order of operations and the idea that requirements must be met prior to declaring and following a given course of action.

I've always been under the impression a figure as well as its target must meet the requirements of a course of action prior to declaring it. If they do not meet the requirements, then you must choose a different course of action. This is why I've won so many games with stealth teams.

Why don't we assess the situation from an order of operations perspective

Imagine you have Thor's Mighty Chariot. Imagine you have a doppleganger adjacent to it. You want to use Thor's Mighty Chariot's special power to destroy it. Not a regular attack but the special power.

1. Look at Trigon's card and see if Dopplegangers are blocking terrain. If the answer is yes, they meet the requirement and you can use the power to destroy it. If the answer is no, then choose a different course of action.

So, I ask you, at what point do the dopplegangers gain some of the characteristics of blocking terrain? Prior to declaring an attack or upon declaring the attack?

If the answer is prior to declaring the attack, then you cannot use Thor's Mighty Chariot's special power against it. The requirements for the course of action are not met. If upon declaring the attack, then it's feasible because the dopplegangers then gain the necessary characteristics to fulfill the requirements of the course of action.

Robert

[llyrghmnghyll]

So, I ask you, at what point do the dopplegangers gain some of the characteristics of blocking terrain? Prior to declaring an attack or upon declaring the attack?


Keep in mind the exact same question has to be asked about anyone declaring an attack on doppelgangers, and this is a big part of the issue.

If they became blocking terrain only after a legal attack, then they would never be attacked because there is no legal attack.

Rather, my assumption is that it is a fundamental property of them that they are destroyed like blocking terrain. At no point do they actually become blocking terrain, they are merely destroyed in the same manner as blocking terrain. Any attempt to target them other than that which is to destroy them is an impossible situation (mind control, outwit, incapacitate, etc.). Any attempt to target them for the purposes of destroying them must meet the prerequisite of being able to destroy blocking terrain. Hence when Madrox outwits their power, nothing happens and Madrox can't even use outwit. However when Thoriot targets them to destroy them the targeting is successful and so is the destruction.

[bluesummers]

This is a good analysis, Robert. As Il, Szude, and myself have pointed out, however, there is no way to target Special Tokens with attacks either.

So if, by your method, I decide I want to destroy a Doppelganger by the universally accepted method of delivering 3 damage to it, I must first assess various data.

1. Doppelgangers can be destroyed as if they were Blocking Terrain.
2. I wish to target the Doppelganger with an attack for 3 damage.
3. Is the Doppelganger Blocking Terrain? No, it is Special Terrain.
4. Therefore, Doppelganger cannot be targeted by an attack action, so it cannot be damaged. Another action must be taken.

So, while I typically agree with your assessment via order of operations, again it makes it impossible to destroy the Doppelgangers, by Thoriot power OR by 3 damage, as they do not state that they are blocking terrain for targeting.

Obviously, the Doppelgangers are meant to be Destroyed. The statement of the SP is that they can be. This only works if the Doppelgangers gain the traits of Blocking Terrain when targeted by an action that destroys Blocking Terrain. This would be true, then, when targeted by a Close Combat Attack, a Ranged Combat Attack, or a SP that targets Blocking Terrain for destruction.

Again, it seems to be an arguement of either both work, or neither works. If you argue that Thoriot cannot destroy them because they are not Blocking Terrain when he chooses the target of his SP, then attacks cannot destroy them either, because they are not Blocking Terrain when choosing the target of the attack, as you cannot attack Special Tokens unless their prevailing game-text gives you permission to do so.

So, again, both or neither work. The 'Destroy' word implies that it is possible to do so. As a judge, I would rule that these particular Special Tokens gain the properties of Blocking Terrain while being targeted by an attack or SP that would destroy Blocking Terrain.

[szude]

Yeah, I don't see what's so hard.

"Destroyed as if they are blocking terrain". Hence, when used in phrases discussing destruction and only phrases discussing destruction, "blocking terrain" may be replaced with "dopplegangers".

Hence pg. 11 of FF manual becomes, "A square of blocking terrain->doppleganger can be destroyed by an attack that deals at least 3 damage in a single attack".

Thor's SP becomes "At the beginning of your turn, as a free action Thor's Mighty Chariot may destroy any walls or blocking terrain->dopplegangers adjacent to it"

[BigSoph]

Either the Special Tokens cannot be targeted by anything for destruction because of their wording, or they CAN be targeted because Destruction implies prior Targeting.

They are not targetable by Thoriot's SP not because they are Special markers, they are not targetable because Thoriot targets the specifics of blocking terrain and walls, which the dops are not - they just follow the rules listed (3+ damage in one shot or 3-6 on BCF roll, cannot attack blocking and character at same time. Objects use the same rules, up to and including the no targeting character and object at same time)

The fact that it says to use special tokens is due to anything else would result in people posting 'I didn't get my Trigon tokens' (q.v. Clown Prince of Crime Arkham Asylum tokens)

Heroclix is a game of exceptions - there is a fundamental core and then the powers, abilities, et al, allow you to 'break' a rule. The rules go from vague to precise, with can't trumping can as you go. The rules for destroying blocking are the rules in the rulebook. Then each SP adds new rules to expand your blocking terrain destruction needs. These same rules, for ease of use, are the same ones used for objects. They could have just as easily said Trigon's dops are destroyed using the same rules as for destroying objects but then we would get a dozen new threads about whether you could use them as weapons with super strength

[brojase]

They are not targetable by Thoriot's SP not because they are Special markers, they are not targetable because Thoriot targets the specifics of blocking terrain and walls, which the dops are not - they just follow the rules listed (3+ damage in one shot or 3-6 on BCF roll, cannot attack blocking and character at same time. Objects use the same rules, up to and including the no targeting character and object at same time)

But why would 3+ damage people be able to target them then? Wouldn't they run into whatever hindrance that Thor's chariot would in being able to initially target them?

[llyrghmnghyll]

Heroclix is a game of exceptions - there is a fundamental core and then the powers, abilities, et al, allow you to 'break' a rule.
Yes
The rules go from vague to precise, with can't trumping can as you go.
I think this is kind of oversimplified, but essentially yes.
The rules for destroying blocking are the rules in the rulebook.
Yes
Then each SP adds new rules to expand your blocking terrain destruction needs.
Yes
These same rules - the rules for destroying Doppelganger tokens, for ease of use, are the same ones used for objects.
Yes

Doppelgangers are an exception to normal terrain, and are destroyed by the same rules as those used to destroy Blocking terrain. Thoriot's power is an exception to how to normally destroy blocking terrain. Put both exception's together and Thoriot destroys Doppelganger tokens.

[bluesummers]

They are not targetable by Thoriot's SP not because they are Special markers, they are not targetable because Thoriot targets the specifics of blocking terrain and walls, which the dops are not - they just follow the rules listed (3+ damage in one shot or 3-6 on BCF roll, cannot attack blocking and character at same time. Objects use the same rules, up to and including the no targeting character and object at same time)



Rule: Blocking terrain may be attacked by characters.
Rule: Blocking terrain may be destroyed by attacks resulting in damage 3 or higher.

Exception: Thoriot may destroy adjacent blocking terrain without making an attack roll. This is a free action.

Rule: Special Tokens may not be attacked or targeted by SP. (See: Joker Fish Token)

Exception: Doppelganger Special Tokens may be destroyed as if they were Blocking Terrain.

Ergo: They may be targeted by things that destroy Blocking Terrain AS IF they were Blocking Terrain, OR ELSE NOT AT ALL.

Results:

Exception: Doppelganger Special Tokens may be destroyed by Attacks, as they provide provisional rules for which they are simultaneously a Special Token AND targetable as Blocking Terrain.

Exception: Thoriot may target and destroy Doppelgangers, as they provide provisional rules for which they are simultaneously a Special Token AND targetable as Blocking Terrain.

[BigSoph]

Rule: Special Tokens may not be attacked or targeted by SP. (See: Joker Fish Token)

Okay, let's try this again: A special token has no inherent representation - it is a placeholder. Its exact effect is determined by the power, feat or scenario that lead to its placement

If you wanted to, and I have seen this done, you could make custom tokens to represent the dops - one guy took extra trigons, blacked out the bases and removed the dials, He then painted each the reverse of trigon (red robes, white body)

Ergo: They may be targeted by things that destroy Blocking Terrain AS IF they were Blocking Terrain, OR ELSE NOT AT ALL.

What?

Let me requote the rules book here: Objects can be destroyed using the rules for destroying a square of blocking terrain

They use the same rules for destruction as blocking. Does this mean that Thoriot can destroy them too? No, because he does not destroy objects

We know this because his SP specifically states he destroys blocking terrain and walls

What can you attack in HC? Characters, objects and blocking terrain (you cannot destroy a square of hindering or elevated or water *)

The rules for damaging characters are one set of rules (i.e. click) and the rules for blocking and objects are another (either/or, 3 damage), Certain powers and abilities may expand the realm of specific terrain destruction (i.e. Thoriot, Element Lad)

* and before anyone says it, yes, I am aware of Fin Fang Foom's special abilities and Element Lad could remove placed hindering terrain markers (i.e. rubble)

[bluesummers]

I realize that special tokens are just place holders. They aren't actually 'things' per se. But as such, there are no rules for them in the rulebook, and all of the rules applied to them have to be given by the SP or Object text that creates them.

So, Joker Fish, my cited example, cannot be targeted for an attack because there are no rules given allowing them to be attacked or altered in any way. This is similar to how hindering terrain is treated in that, while no rules explicitly state that you cannot target hindering terrain for an attack, since it is never stated that you can target them for an attack, you cannot. The absence of a Positive is a Negative.

Of course, the unique rules for Doppelgangers are different, they are tokens that can 'be destroyed as if they were blocking terrain.'

A point of clarification here: Objects, as you point out, are destroyed using the rules for destroying Blocking Terrain, but Thor Cannot destroy objects because they are not Blocking Terrain. I agree on this.

But Trigon's Doppelganger power doesn't read "May be destroyed using the rules for destroying Blocking Terrain." it reads "May be destroyed AS IF IT WERE Blocking Terrain."

The interesting part of the arguments that have come up are the statements that Thoriot cannot target the Special Token because he cannot target anything other than Blocking Terrain and walls with his power.

Yet those same arguments claim that an attack can destroy the Special Token. But, as you said, what can you attack in HC? Blocking Terrain, Walls, and Enemy Figures.
But, a Special Token is not an enemy figure, or a Wall, or Blocking Terrain. So, if Thoriot cannot target a Doppelganger AS IF IT WERE Blocking Terrain, because it is not, then how an an attack target a Doppelganger AS IF IT WERE Blockign Terrain, because, still, it is not.

Again, the absense of a Positive is a Negative, and the rules do not state you can Target a Special Token with an attack, so you cannot unless the Token's Gametext itself says so.

And here we see that Trigon's SP allows the tokens to be destroyed AS IF THEY WERE Blocking Terrain, which means they have to be TARGETED as if they were Blocking Terrain, or else Attacks could not target them, because Attacks don't target Special Tokens, generally.
And if they are TARGETED as if they were Blocking terrain, then Thoriot can destroy them, because that is what his power targets.

[AbsoluteRob]

Blue,

The thread has become repetitious at best now. I'm seeing "as if" equate "is" again when that isn't necessarily the case. At this point, I'd stand by my assessment of the situation. But, if I am in the midst of a game and the individual judging chooses to rule in the opposite, then I'd abide by said ruling for that game. I wouldn't consider said ruling official, though. A ruling would have to come from Neca/Wizkids itself before I'd consider it official. I'm looking forward to see what Neca/Wizkids has to say on this matter and will abide by their decision, whether or not it agrees with my assessment.

Robert

[BigSoph]

The interesting part of the arguments that have come up are the statements that Thoriot cannot target the Special Token because he cannot target anything other than Blocking Terrain and walls with his power.

Let me ask you this: Lazarus Pit is cheaper on Ra's al-Ghul. But it is not cheaper on the LE called Demon's Head. It is the same thing, right? No, it is not, it is the same comic book character but it is a different figure for game purposes

Thoriot's power names the things he can destroy, namely the things specifically called blocking terrain (brown bordered areas on maps and barrier tokens) and walls (thick black lines on maps)

The things called Doppleggnager tokens are not one of the things named

And, please, lay off on the twist of targeting special tokens. The special token itself is meaningless - it is a placeholder. Call them whatever you want, replace the special tokens with dead field mice (would add certain creepy je ne sais quois to a game with Trigon) - the 'things' named doppleganger tokens are their own entity

Absolute Rob is AbsoluteRight. I am done. I presented my case, I read the opposing view's

Have fun storming the castle, kids.

[bluesummers]

Too true, Big Rob. I'm tired or arguing in circles, though I'm never one to drop a fight while its still raging.

Since you suggest we let it sit here until an official ruling is made, I'm inclined to agree with you, at least that far.

*shakes hands* *sits and waits for Wizkids*

[AbsoluteRob]

Blue (and everyone else)

Excellent discussion! It's great to see people discuss a topic in a coherent civil manner. A huge high five to all!

Robert

[BigSoph]

Actually one last thing, in my last post, I referred to Doppleggnager tokens

Make that doppleganger

I have no idea what a doppleggnager would be (dop-leg-nage-er?)

[Harpua]

Actually one last thing, in my last post, I referred to Doppleggnager tokens

Make that doppleganger

I have no idea what a doppleggnager would be (dop-leg-nage-er?)

I think that's the sound the nylon makes when Rosie O'Donnell puts on panyhose.

[szude]

Thoriot's power names the things he can destroy, namely the things specifically called blocking terrain (brown bordered areas on maps and barrier tokens) and walls (thick black lines on maps)

The things called Doppleggnager tokens are not one of the things named


You're right.

You know what else? Dopplegangers are not one of the things named in the rulebook that can be destroyed by characters. Would you allow Superman to destroy a doppleganger? Based on your Thoriot argument, no, he can't.

[The Sandman]

All I have to say to this is <sigh>

[Harpua]

All I have to say to this is <sigh>

I'm not sure why that would be.

It's a valid debate. It just happens to be that at this moment in time, we don't have a way of getting an official answer.

[Petros76]

So I've read the arguments for and against both sides.
My first order of business as Rules Arbitrator is to put this to rest.
I would have to say...
Just kidding, I'm not the RA.
My opinion, that's right, my two cents, is that the Doppelgangers are able to be destroyed when targeted, but not by Thoriot's SP.
I think of them as Zombies, ethereal figures/spirits, or dupes of Trigon. My gaming crowd actually uses Mage Knight Figures (skeltons) to represent them. As such they are not considered to be blocking terrain till they are targeted and that is where we get the 3 damage requirement needed to actually destroy them.
Either way, I've enjoyed reading the back and fourth theories with the arguments.
On the other hand, Thoriot has free break away right? Why not just get in a better position and not bother with the Doppelgangers till we get a correct rulling. The Doppelgangers don't move. Trigon has to take them out and then put them back in. Thoriot should be able to just ko Trigon and not worry about the Dops.

[necrodog]

Lots of interesting (and thankfully civil) discussion on this topic although I do think some of the analysis is too in-depth. This seems pretty simple to me:

Doppelganger token are not terrain, but can be desroyed as if they were blocking terrain.

Thor's Chariot can destroy adjacent walls or blocking terrain as a free action.

So either
(1) Thor's Chariot can use his special power to destroy doppels s a free action because they can be destroyed as if they were blocking terrain

or

(2) Thor's special power can't be used on doppels because they aren't terrain.

I go with (2) because they specifically aren't terrain and the power specifies terrain and walls. I can see the logic of answer (1), and I wouldn't argue if at your venue you ruled that way, but the way I read the text says (2) is correct and that's how I'll rule it should it come up.
If the hypothetical RA ruled differently I wouldn't have any problem accepting that but would expect it to be consistently applied (Wallbuster should also apply to doppels, for example.) In the meantime I don't see how anyone can claim a definitive answer from what we have.

Digression: I think the "RA is a volunteer who communicates with GD and provides official rulings" is a good model. I can also see that a number of issues may keep NECA from following that model soon or ever. In the interim, I'd like to see them tap a pool of knowledgable players to provide an "RA by committee" on a well-known and frequented site: this one. Were it my choice I'd look for a team of three out of Harpua, Quebbster, Hair10, DemonRS and nbperp.