View Full Version : Mammoth SP?
INSEPARABLE: Mammoth can use Super Strength. Modify Mammoth's attack value by +2 if he has a clear line of fire to Shimmer.
My question is can Mammoth attack br replace and still get the +2 to his attack.
Lets say AA Joker is on the feild if Mammoth is next to him and he use his 11 attack but then since he sees Shimmer will he get the +2 so his attack will be 13.
Just need to be clear on that.
I would say yes that he gets the +2 to attack after the replacement.
It does not say check only once so you would be able to check to see if he has LoF when u declare the attack.
Quebbster
10/24/2009, 04:34
replace, then modify.
yes, he would get the bonus on top of the replacement value.
I'm not totally sure that you guys are correct.
It's replace, then modify...when the effects occur simultaneously.
Nothing indicates that this effect is only happening at the time Mammoth makes an attack.
If he's just sitting around doing nothing and he can see Shimmer, the wording of the power means that he is already getting the modifier. Therefore, it's already in place when the replacement would happen. Consequently, the replacement would overlay the modify.
I'm not saying that that is the intention, but that's how it is written.
I'm not totally sure that you guys are correct.
It's replace, then modify...when the effects occur simultaneously.
Nothing indicates that this effect is only happening at the time Mammoth makes an attack.
If he's just sitting around doing nothing and he can see Shimmer, the wording of the power means that he is already getting the modifier. Therefore, it's already in place when the replacement would happen. Consequently, the replacement would overlay the modify.
I'm not saying that that is the intention, but that's how it is written.
i believe its a modifier that is check each time there is an action given.
i believe its a modifier that is check each time there is an action given.
And the indication to do that is....where?
And the indication to do that is....where?
it seems that its a constant modifier. No where does it say just check it only one time. It would make sense that each time that a action is declared that u check to make sure that it still has LoF.
it seems that its a constant modifier. No where does it say just check it only one time. It would make sense that each time that a action is declared that u check to make sure that it still has LoF.
If he has LoF, he has the modifier. You check that, then *boom* the modifier is applied and would stay applied until something changes.
Dikarika
10/24/2009, 21:16
I'm more likely to agree with Maraud here. I think you check the LoF when you apply the action.
If it is the way you suggest, Harpua, then when Mammoth has LoF at the beginning of a turn, then moves away and attacks (TK or charge, whatnot...), he would have the bonus even if he no longer has LoF.
There must be a time the LoF is checked. And it must remain consistent.
So, which one is it?
Have
You declare an attack, swap out the attack value, check to see if he has LOF (because something HAS changed)
Take a look at ESD: Modify this character’s defense value by +2 against ranged combat attacks
And swapping defence works there, Ditto for CR
And Hydra/Police
Have
You declare an attack, swap out the attack value, check to see if he has LOF (because something HAS changed)
So let's say the power would modify his speed value and Charge.
He has LoF, before the action, so the modifier would be applied...say going from an 8 to a 10.
He halves his Speed for Charge to a 5.
Oh, something has changed, so we check again and bring that speed back up to a 7.
No way.
Take a look at ESD: Modify this character’s defense value by +2 against ranged combat attacks
And swapping defence works there, Ditto for CR
And Hydra/Police
Those give specific times when they are applied.
Mammoth has no such stipulation, so its modifier would be applied like ICwO.
So let's say the power would modify his speed value and Charge.
He has LoF, before the action, so the modifier would be applied...say going from an 8 to a 10.
He halves his Speed for Charge to a 5.
Oh, something has changed, so we check again and bring that speed back up to a 7.
No way.
Those give specific times when they are applied.
Mammoth has no such stipulation, so its modifier would be applied like ICwO.
You just applied the same modifier twice in the first example
You just applied the same modifier twice in the first example
Exactly, but that's where ruling it as you explain would lead.
In your example you took a modifier which had been in place and removed it for no apparent reason before a replacement only to reapply it again after the replacement.
Exactly, but that's where ruling it as you explain would lead.
In your example you took a modifier which had been in place and removed it for no apparent reason before a replacement only to reapply it again after the replacement.
Well, for one, I would not apply the same modifier twice
Dikarika pointed out that, based on your interpretation, Mammoth can use the +2 as long as he has LOF at some point
IMOBotF, the LOF requirement is a continuous requirement - if you do not meet its prerequisites, you cannot use the power
tyroclix
10/25/2009, 12:26
The power is optional so I would not opt to use it when Mammoth was standing around but instead opt to use it when I made an attack - which would combine the power at the same time as the Batman Enemy Team Ability I was copying.
Since it would occur simultaneously, I would then follow the ruling of replace then modify.
The power is optional so I would not opt to use it when Mammoth was standing around but instead opt to use it when I made an attack - which would combine the power at the same time as the Batman Enemy Team Ability I was copying.
Since it would occur simultaneously, I would then follow the ruling of replace then modify.
BRILLIANT! I wish I had thought of that! Rep to you, good sir
Well, for one, I would not apply the same modifier twice
I was not saying that you can do that. Did you see the "No Way" at the end of that post?
What I was saying is that your method would do that.
Dikarika pointed out that, based on your interpretation, Mammoth can use the +2 as long as he has LOF at some point
No. When he has LoF, he has the bonus. When he does not have LoF, he does not have the bonus.
IMOBotF, the LOF requirement is a continuous requirement - if you do not meet its prerequisites, you cannot use the power
That's fine, but if you have LoF, you have the bonus.
The bonus is already there before the replacement happens. You cannot stop getting the replacement for a moment in order to replace, then reapply the bonus afterwards.
The power is optional so I would not opt to use it when Mammoth was standing around but instead opt to use it when I made an attack - which would combine the power at the same time as the Batman Enemy Team Ability I was copying.
Since it would occur simultaneously, I would then follow the ruling of replace then modify.
This is incorrect.
The power IS optional, but to not use it, you would have to cancel the power.
BRILLIANT! I wish I had thought of that! Rep to you, good sir
It wouldn't work, though.
thebigZZZZZ
10/25/2009, 17:25
replace and then modify sure cause some confusion like the one I had with a friend last Thursday night - he had Dr. Strange, Calculator, and Con Artist....strange as it seems...because I kept thinking - Dr. Strange made a roll granting him a +2 perplex and his Defend of 18 would go to both Calculator and Con Artist...the part is kind of tricky - I keep confusing myself too.
which one is correct:
#1 - Dr. Strange used a Defend to both Calculator and Con Artist - all now has 18 on their Defense... Dr. Strange's defend is perplexed up to 20...while Calculator and Con Artist still remind at 18.
#2 - Dr. Strange used a Defend to both - all has 18....Calculator perplexing himself up to 19, Con Artist up to 19 with her perplex...Dr. Strange +2 up to 20 on his Defense.
#3 - all defend of 18 plus cal's and con artist's perplexing + dr. Strange +2 up to 21 (rules of 3 apply) and all of them get 21 on their defense. (Defend + all perplexers combined)
#4 - ??? what is the right way?
tyroclix
10/25/2009, 17:54
The bonus is already there before the replacement happens. You cannot stop getting the replacement for a moment in order to replace, then reapply the bonus afterwards.
The power IS optional, but to not use it, you would have to cancel the power.
For discussion:
Pg 15, Rulebook:
A power is in effect when it appears on the character’s combat dial
through the stat slot. All powers are optional unless “non-optional” appears in their description, and are not required to be used during your turn; however, all powers (such as those activated by a specific type of action or attack) are assumed to be in effect during an action unless you cancel it at the beginning of that action. When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.
Sinister Syndicate (and Batman Enemy)TA:
Before the attack roll of any attack made by a character using the Sinister Syndicate team ability, the character can replace its attack value with the unmodified attack value (including a replacement attack value) of any adjacent friendly character possessing the Sinister Syndicate team ability.
So the three ways around the wording is:
A) Mammoth must Charge into Line of Fire of Shimmer AND adjacent to a Bat-Enemy character at the same time creating a simul-occurrence.
B) Mammoth begins next to a Bat-Enemy character and at the beginning of the turn declares he is copying the TA thereby gaining the attack value AND seeing Shimmer simultaneously.
C) Mammoth can't see Shimmer when a Bat-Enemy piece moves adjacent. Mammoth declares he is copying the Bat Enemy TA and then a wall is dropped, Shimmer is taxied, a figure is moved, etc allowing Mammoth to see Shimmer and then gets to modify his currently replaced attack value by +2.
This means Mammoth could not see Shimmer and then have a Bat-Enemy move next to him to boost his attack value further.
Yeesh, I'm inclined to just make it easy and say you pick the order...
Okay, let's try the flip side
ESD = Modify this character’s defense value by +2 against ranged combat attacks.
Shimmer = Modify Shimmer's defense value by +2 if she has a clear line of fire to Mammoth
When do we apply the defence bonus for ESD? Does it SPECIFICALLY say when? No, it does not. It only states type of attacks. We go - is our ESD character under attack? If yes, is it ranged? If yes, then +2.
If Shimmer borrowed JSA, we would go - is she under attack? If yes, swap defence. now does she have LOF to Mammoth, if yes, then +2
All the replacement powers are at the moment of the attack, whether defensively or offensively. The modifier powers that state a specific stat against a specific circumstance
Lacking an official term, I will call it a floating modifier. It hangs out waiting to be used.
Okay, let's try the flip side
ESD = Modify this character’s defense value by +2 against ranged combat attacks.
This means that there's a +2 applied when a ranged attack is being made.
Shimmer = Modify Shimmer's defense value by +2 if she has a clear line of fire to Mammoth
There's nothing at all to indicate any sort of timing for just attacks. As such, the modifier is applied when the power says to modify it...when the clear LoF exists...and that is not just during attacks.
When do we apply the defence bonus for ESD? Does it SPECIFICALLY say when? No, it does not.
Actually, it does. See above
It only states type of attacks. We go - is our ESD character under attack? If yes, is it ranged? If yes, then +2.
Well, that's what we SAY (not go), but I know what you mean.;)
If Shimmer borrowed JSA, we would go - is she under attack? If yes, swap defence. now does she have LOF to Mammoth, if yes, then +2
That's not right.
At some point before the attack, we determine if there is LoF.
We say, "Is there LoF?" If yes, modify the defense.
The modifier continues to be there while LoF exists.
Now an attack is declared.
Shimmer borrows the JSA, replacing her defense (not defence), including the previously applied modifier.
All the replacement powers are at the moment of the attack, whether defensively or offensively.
That's the pattern so far. It happens to be that way for all things so far, but I don't recall a rule stating that to be the hard and fast rule.
The modifier powers that state a specific stat against a specific circumstance
This modifier power does that, too.
Modify what? Defense.
When? Whenever there's LoF.
Anything else? Nope...so the modifier is not only applied during attacks, but all all times LoF exists, unlike ESD which specifies that its modifier is applied during ranged attacks.
Well, that's what we SAY (not go), but I know what you mean.;)
I stand by my interpretation that the modifier is more akin to ESD than Perplex - the LOF requirement being continuous.
And yes, we do go, as I don't actually say these out loud, they are a flow chart (as in I am going through the process)
My actual conversation, as said, would be, "hmmm (some under breath muttering as needed) ... I need an 18 with my ranged combat expert (or whatever)"
What was the order of things? Replace then Modify or Modify then Replace. If the old WK forums were still up, I would refer to that. The power uses the word Modify. I would say it's a modifier. So, which ever order it's supposed to be, go with that.
Another way to look at it, how does JSA/Defenders/Defend handle ES/D when sharing a defense?
Even with a replaced value of Jokers attack, you can check, does he have LoF? Yes, then he gets +2 to his replaced attack value.
Hero_guy
10/27/2009, 13:04
...Anything else? Nope...so the modifier is not only applied during attacks, but all all times LoF exists, unlike ESD which specifies that its modifier is applied during ranged attacks.
If you wanted to emphasize 'all', most people would use italics, bold, or a combination of the two. :p
In any case, I can see where you all are coming from. What Harpua is saying is that because LoF is the only requirement needed for Mammoth's SP to be applied, it would constantly be applied as long as the requirement (LoF) is met. Therefore, it is already in place when any modifiers that trigger upon making/declaring an attack are applied. Because BA only triggers upon an attack, it would replace the already modified AV. If the SP had said simply Mammoth has a +2 to attack value, and there were a feat that required an 11 AV, Mammoth would qualify for it as long as he had the SP and at least a 9AV showing. Now taking that, and moving him next to Joker who has a 10AV, he declares an attack. He has 9AV+2=11. If he declared/used BA, his 11 would then be replaced by Jokers 10AV.
Edit: If Mammoth had a feat which required an 11AV, and he had a printed 9AV with his SP, he would be able to declare charge using the feat. He would also declare BA at the same time. He would then move. Next he would start the 'free' cc action part of charge and declare that he is now using Joker's AV which would replace the [9(printed)+2(SP)]=11 with Joker's AV.
What this really comes down to is wether powers must be turned off in order not to use them. Which was always a grey area to me because if a character had PB and EE and declared a ranged attack, rolled the attack dice and hit, which power was the character using? PB? EE? Neither? Even the rulebook doesn't clear this one up for us in any definitive manner.
On the other hand, ESD has a stipulation that says "against ranged combat attacks." This really isn't a timing issue as it is a requirement issue either. Does a figure with ESD always have the +2 to defense? I really don't think so. Even with the lack of the words "when", "if" or other similar terms, I'd say that the defense bonus is only applied when the figure is attacked via ranged combat. It seems to be implicit to me. In essence, the attack is the trigger for the +2 to defense, because it would not have the modifier otherwise. This would be why JSA/Defend/Defenders works the way it does with ESD figures. Think about this with regards to the Slippery Feat and a 15DefV.
And to answer the Dr. Strange question, Defend activates upon attack, so any modifiers that are already in place, such as from Perplex, would get overwritten with the new defense value. And you already seem to know that Defend shares only the unmodified defense value.
If you wanted to emphasize 'all', most people would use italics, bold, or a combination of the two. :p
It should have said "at all" up there.
In any case, I can see where you all are coming from. What Harpua is saying is that because LoF is the only requirement needed for Mammoth's SP to be applied, it would constantly be applied as long as the requirement (LoF) is met. Therefore, it is already in place when any modifiers that trigger upon making/declaring an attack are applied. Because BA only triggers upon an attack, it would replace the already modified AV.
Bingo.
If the SP had said simply Mammoth has a +2 to attack value, and there were a feat that required an 11 AV, Mammoth would qualify for it as long as he had the SP and at least a 9AV showing. Now taking that, and moving him next to Joker who has a 10AV, he declares an attack. He has 9AV+2=11. If he declared/used BA, his 11 would then be replaced by Jokers 10AV.
Edit: If Mammoth had a feat which required an 11AV, and he had a printed 9AV with his SP, he would be able to declare charge using the feat. He would also declare BA at the same time. He would then move. Next he would start the 'free' cc action part of charge and declare that he is now using Joker's AV which would replace the [9(printed)+2(SP)]=11 with Joker's AV.
Actually, as far as feats are concerned, it wouldn't work like this.
Page 19: "Combat values can’t be modified to meet the prerequisites to use a feat."
Hero_guy
10/28/2009, 12:44
It should have said "at all" up there.
I know, I was just messing with ya :p
Actually, as far as feats are concerned, it wouldn't work like this.
Page 19: "Combat values can’t be modified to meet the prerequisites to use a feat."
Pfftt...what the? Forget it. I'm not siding with ppl who shoot down my examples with something like 'rules'. I'm siding with the people who think that the modifier can be applied after the replacement instead. :p
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