HeroClix Figure Review - Ultron

[AZS]

This article and content are property of the Author and is not to be redistributed or reposted in whole or in part without the Author's approval. However, feel free to link to the list page here (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16280) Thank you.

Welcome to my reviews and thanks for reading.
I’m writing these to start discussions, have some fun, and I hope you will too.
These reviews look at stats, cost, playability and strategy in the context of 200 and 300 pt games. Also, while I have nothing against mixing sets, to make this a little easier, these are only discussed in relation to the Marvel Universe.
Feel free to object or agree with anything! If you have a valid point, I’ll be more than happy to back you up.

Having reviewed all the figures that I have anything to say about in Clobberin’ Time, (and a few I didn’t, but made stuff up about anyway) I graciously return to the set that started it all with a review of everyone’s favorite adamantium robot with a grudge: Ultron

Everyone has an opinion on Ultron, and most people have played him. There is no doubt that he’s a solid piece, but there was a lot of feedback when he didn’t make it onto my top 20 list. So I’m going to dissect each of his versions and see what makes him tick.

The first things that stand out about the tin man are his impressive stats. This is one robot who won’t have inferiority complexes. With his high starting defense, big 10 range, and an attack value capable of hitting even Unique Wasp with ease, this guy is buff.

So is he really everything people make him out to be? Lets take a look.

The rookie starts out at a svelte (for Ultron anyway) 111 points. A veritable bargain for those stats at first glance. He has a high 17 defense with invulnerability, a big 12 attack that can hit with a dual energy explosion or straight 3 damage. The 3 damage and multiple target EE are staples in all the versions along with the invulnerability.

This rookie seems pretty solid for the points, but when you stop to think about it, you’ll realize that a +100 pt fig that only deals 3 damage is a touch expensive. Especially when you also realize you’ll probably need to give him his own taxi as well. The dual energy explosion can be a neat trick, but its still a bit pricey.
Other than that, R Ultron is fairly efficient. He has 9 clicks of life, high stats, and doesn’t waste points on a frivolous team ability or wasted powers. He has invulnerability giving way to toughness for 5 total clicks and while his damage doesn’t start really high, it never drops below 2.

The Experienced Ultron is nearly identical to the Rookie with an extra click of toughness, some slightly increased stats, and one overriding difference, the Minions of Doom team ability. All for a very playable 139 points. On the surface Ultron would seem very (very) playable, with the high stats, decent damage and most of all the implacable 13 attack. However, Ultron isn’t as easy to take advantage of as it would seem. When I posted my top 20 list and E Ultron didn’t make the cut I got a lot of e-mails and PMs asking me what was up (that’s the polite version, some people are so sensitive). I got a laundry list of ways to use Ultron, many of which were contradictory. People often praised his high attack value but neglected to take into account the mere 3 damage. Or examples of how to use the wildcard team ability were made but failed to point out that in order for Klaw (or V Puppet Master *shudder*) to use Ultron’s attack value, not only does there need to be a sinister syndicate figure on the team to copy, but Ultron has to carry around Klaw. Making Klaw a very expensive shooter with the classiest (and most costly) taxi in the game.
Others gave examples of copying Defense using the Defenders team or even moving for free with Avengers, but most of these involved Ultron being the taxi and not the attacker, thus wasting the high attack value or pairing him with a less than prime companion. Such as an E Ultron / E Doc Strange combo. Which is great to begin with because the fine Doctor will get an 18 defense plus energy shield to make it 20. But if the Doc is the taxi, you only have a movement of 6, and if Ultron is the taxi, well again that’s a bit expensive just to take advantage of the team ability. Other suggestions to shoot down are using him with the Shield team, if he gets the increase, then it means again that he’s carrying the shield agent (or another wildcard) and will likely have to pause and push after flying into position. If he is acting as the shield agent, well that’s just a big waste, especially when there’s other wildcards like Doombot who can do the same thing for far less points. The same argument goes for hydra, but less so since that team ability doesn’t cost you an action.
Yeah, there are some cool and capable things you can do with Ultron to take advantage of the high attack value, the defense and the wildcard team ability. But ultimately the ends don’t justify the means because even in a 300 pt game Ultron is nearly half the cost of your entire team and he’s dealing only 3 clicks of damage and only has 9 clicks of life.

You don’t hear a lot of arguments for the Veteran Ultron though. His stats and powers are easily the best of the bunch, but for 188 points he’s far too expensive to take him seriously, and you just know that a bunch of those points were wasted on the Masters of Evil team ability (when 2 or more MoE figs are next to an opponent, they can all attack using only 1 action).
Even if you can pull off getting into position to use the MoE team ability, think about this – Ultron has a 10 range with triple lightning bolts (and Energy Explosion!). In what strategy will putting him in base contact with an opponent to use the MoE team be effective!? Plus, he’s nearly 200 points all by him self, so its not like your team is going to have serious shortage of actions to need the MoE?
In very large point games Vet Ultron can be fun to play because he’s such a beast to take down, and there’s bound to be large groupings of figures to use a 3 arrow Energy Explosion on. But in nearly any other circumstance the Vet not only too expensive, but there are far better choices for the price, such as Vet Thor or even Thanos.

In the end, the Rookie is pretty cool for just 111 points, but his damage leaves something to be desired. The most popular Experienced version is the most playable, and the most flexible thanks to the wildcard team, but still doesn’t quite live up to the expectations of fanboys world wide. His playability does increase exponentially if you play a mixed set game because some of the DC team abilities really add value without needing to be adjacent (like the Batman and Superman team abilities). But typically I don’t like to get too much into details about mixing sets because it gets a little overwhelming and these reviews would end up being twice as long!

Finally, the Veteran Ultron is the best version of the bunch, packing the biggest firepower, better overall defense with more clicks of life, but at too high a price to justify him in anything but the biggest of games.

In the end, Ultron is a fine piece to field, and his high attack value makes him successful in just about anything you want to use him for. But be careful not to push him to much or too early because his defense is his weakest link and it drops fast! Sure the plunging defense can be useful when trying to heal him, but the 14 that he gets after 3 clicks is far easier for my attackers to hit than for your medic to heal.

When fielding Ultron, try to support him with a solid strategy and not just a lot of bruisers because you’ll need brains in addition to brawn to make up for his mediocre damage (if you’re just going to field a lot of bruisers, then why are you playing Ultron to begin with?) All around a fine and solid piece, just not one of the best pieces in the game, and not as good as many make him out to be.


Check out my other reviews at these links:
Marvel Reviews (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16280) . . . DC Reviews (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14015)

[bladestalker]

first reply. :)

nice review ASZ. looks liekyou took a lot of heat over Ultron not making teh list.

One question. the MOE ability wasn't that errata'd to include ranged attacks?

[EVIL CAP]

Pretty good review overall azs but real quick about the whole top 20 thing.I didnt agree about some of it but i saw your POV on the characters and didnt press the issue past maybe 1 or 2 posts.I think you are well respected enough around here to not have to justify the choices you made on the list.No matter who you picked or how well you justified it there would be just as many people complaining about Ultron being Number 1 instead of FL or Batman being ranked higher than Nightwing and Robin

[AZS]

Evil Cap, thanks a lot for the support. And you are of course correct, no matter who or what was said, there's always going to be dissagreements.

bladestalker- you can make a 'ranged attack' but you still have to all be adjacent to the same opposing figure. My point was, why bother getting up close to a figure when you can do the same damage from 10 squares away?

[dr_lyu]

So, so, review. You failed to mention the many mixed tournament matches where E Ultron is one of the most powerful figs possible. I agree that he is a bit limited but in specialized teams built specificly for Ultron he is a monster.

[bladestalker]

agreed ASZ. that's why i rarely use the vet.

[AZS]

Originally posted by dr_lyu
So, so, review. You failed to mention the many mixed tournament matches where E Ultron is one of the most powerful figs possible. I agree that he is a bit limited but in specialized teams built specificly for Ultron he is a monster. Actually, in spite of saying at the beginning of every review - "while I have nothing against mixing sets, to make this a little easier, these are only discussed in relation to the Marvel Universe."

I still mentioned at the end of the review"His playability does increase exponentially if you play a mixed set game because some of the DC team abilities really add value..."
So :p

[Airdog]

Long time reader, first time poster (I think....I may have posted once before).

Azs, you hit it right on the head when you said you need solid strategy to play him. Rookie or exp Ultron in the hands of a good player is one of the most dangerous pieces in the game, IMO. But it takes the right person playing him.

There are few pieces I fear as much as him in tournament play for that reason (the one that shall not be named being the only one I fear more). That is why I think a lot of people disagreed with you on you top 20 list.

Anyways, keep up the great work and your view is certainly solid and backed with sound reasoning.

[stevenbdavis]

Ex or Vet Ultron + Invisible Girl = Uberbeast. This combo wasn't mentioned but makes Ultron, Firelord, etc. truly insane killers since they can take hits but keep their high damage and attack without the defense dropping weaknesses.

[Phil Dixon]

I'm by no means having a go at you azs, but you seem to have overlooked something. When discussing E Ultron, you make the point more than once that Ultron makes a poor taxi, and this limits his usefulness when paired with Puppet Master or Dr Strange.

I agree, but they can both have taxis - Doombots are ideal for this as they can borrow Ultron's Attack and Defence also, should the situation require it, and they're often handy for Hydra support (for those occasions 13 Attack just isn't good enough).

[dr_lyu]

Originally posted by azs
Actually, in spite of saying at the beginning of every review - "while I have nothing against mixing sets, to make this a little easier, these are only discussed in relation to the Marvel Universe."

I still mentioned at the end of the review"His playability does increase exponentially if you play a mixed set game because some of the DC team abilities really add value..."
So :p

Sorry..... I didn't notice the disclaimer.

dr_lyu

[AZS]

steven- much like bacon, R-Invisible Girl makes everything better. However, when Ultron (or anyone else for that matter) carries IG around like a shield, they are significantly restricted in their strategy.
For starters, you can't get in a first strike like you can if Ultron is taxied in by someone else. Plus, after you move into position, your opponent then has the opportunity to either hit you, or simply move out of line of sight. Then on your turn you either need to push your figure to hit, or pass/clear and leave a sitting target again.
The combo is nice for the defense, but IMO it has more drawbacks than benifits.

On the other hand, if you do something like Taxi in Ultron to attack, and then taxi up rook IG to add defense, you get the total package, but that's a lot of work, points, and actions just to keep one figure playable.

[Kiften]

azs,
Ultron's a great piece, but only really effective in the midgame I've found. You get a cheap bruiser (Herc) and some defense (E Strange, Invis Girl or U Spidey) and throw them against the enemy just to weaken them down a click or two, or heck three. Then have Ultron chip away at them.
Or, if they use a bunch of weenies, then just let them waste actions moving forward and deal out triple arrow ee :)
Ultron has some versatility that alot of other figs don't have
And yes ultron would have been infinitely better with Running Shot and triple arrow/EE...
biggs

[Mr. Pilkington]

As cool as Ultron's stats are, I have to agree that he is a bit of a finesse figure. You really have to be able to protect him to keep him useful. As with any triple-digit figure with heavy defese powers, he seems nigh invulnerable (well, okay, in his case he *has* Invulnerability) but all it takes is one cheap-@ss 27pt Rookie Black Panther to kill him dead, dead, dead. Add a little Perplex to the mix initially to help hit him and <Emeril>BAM!</Emeril> you have so much scarp metal and a big gaping hole in your team. But like I said, this is generally the drawback of all 100+ figures. And in Marvel only BP starts with Outwit. And the rookie is stealthed. And Marvel does not have the Superman "I see you!" team ability. So BP still abounds in tournament teams. And I honestly don't see him going away. There is no way WizKids can make a cheaper Outwit figure that is as useful, so unless they ban BP or do some massive recall/cover-up we are stuck with him. And all the heavy hitters like Ultron wake up in the middle of the night out of nightmares about BPs in the bushes telling Bullseye where to shoot.

Darn. I apologize for having this post turn into an anti-outwit fest instead of really discussing Ultron. Outwit just makes me so mad. I ran my first Heroclix tournament last weekend and the two player who took 1st and 2nd were the only two out of the seven there using BP (and they each had PC from E Black Cat, but she isn't so bad...). I knew half of the players there and they were casual Heroclix players who never really used BP. And they didn't know how to deal with him. In the final round two heavy hitters were eaten by Outwit: E Ultron and U Super Skrull. Both of those teams had done well against teams without Outwit. But in a 300pt game you *need* Ultron's Invulnerability to justify his point cost, you know?

*sigh*

Sorry again. I apologize and then go right on ranting. I'll just stop now. :)

[note: editted to change s#### into scarp so that I could evade the silly, silly language filters]

[bakija]

Steven B Davis wrote:
>>Ex or Vet Ultron + Invisible Girl = Uberbeast. This combo wasn't mentioned but makes Ultron, Firelord, etc. truly insane killers since they can take hits but keep their high damage and attack without the defense dropping weaknesses.>>

As mentioned before, yeah, IG hands out an 18 defense, but all that means is that Ultron and Firelord only need to roll 5's to energy explode the group, dropping IG's defense to an unimpressive 15 after 2 clicks of damage.

Ultron is probably better off on his own.

-Peter

[dolemite199]

The strategy to use IG with Ultron is a waste of points in this case. IG defend only shines when she is adjacent to someone with energy shield/ deflection. Yes, having an 18 defense is nice, but having a twenty against range is better. Ultron starts with an 18 defense. IG's defend only becomes beneficial after he has received damage. Ultron is best paried with an exp. Doombot. The Doombot can use all of the non attack related team abilities to move Ultron around while Ultron shoots from his ten range. I completely agree with azs review on Ultron. He is a piece that screams for a supporting cast.

[Spiritual_Ex]

THe Ultron/Strange combo is not just effective due to Stranges Defenders power, but mainly (in my mind), because Strange has phasing. THis allows strange to disengage Ultron from those in base to base with him, fly him a few hexes away (I do agree the 6 move is pretty ####py), and then let Ultron Blast his opponent. The only real problem I see with this are those models that taxi being able to carry the heavy up to attack ultron again, so in a Ultron/strange team I think the taxi's need to be the number one priority. Further, attacking Strange makes Ultron more powerful, through the enhancement power, and the potential to be healed by strange (granted his high defence makes this a bit difficult).


Just my 2 bits. It isn't a perfect combo, but I think it has the potential to be effective and fun to play.

[Capt Crunch]

I think the monster figures true strength is lasting till the endgame when everyone is a bit beat up and not hitting well or very hard, and that is where they shine. They are still around and are still hitting pretty hard and still relatively hard to get hit.

Like Thanos, I think the character's true strength is their ability to hit someone for damage. They are the closest thing to a guaranteed hit you can have so you have to make it count with good target selection.

I also feel since they often don't hit for as much it is essential that these figures be paired with outwitters so that 3 damage actualy counts and toughness and invulnerability are taken away.

Also I am not sure but 3 damage is enough to destroy a barrier/hidden terrain feature and of course walls, and should not be overlooked.

[CaptainCarl]

sorry boys and gals

im no yes man but i do agree with azs ulton is a good piece but overhyped

if you have toughness EE is kinda moot and ppl say late game if i see ultron on the table hes gettin knocked out with the quickness

and like azs says to make ultron worth it he needs a supporting case which usually does not consist of heavy hitters so when ultron bites the dust its just mop up after wards

dont get me wrong i have played ultron but to me it seems like a one trick pony team i have fielded ultron on many occasions and the versitility is just not their

as for not being in the top 10 thats a judgement call and it was azs list so it was his call do i think he deserves to be in the top 20 i believe he does cause like i said earlier when hes on the table he is a threat and needs to be dealt with

to me hes a top 20 piece but not top 10 and definately not 1

thats my 10 cents

keep up the good work azs i anjoy all the stuff you write about even though are views tend to differ on occassion we are in agreement on this one

thecaptain

cant wait to see whos the next fig wizkids will put up today

[CyberVenom]

My favorite (yet a lot of people don't see why) combo with Ultron?

Why, that'd be E Ultron and V Joker!

[Styrix]

As to the Wildcard team ability with E Strange. A faboo combo for me is E Strange and V Annihilus, with running shot making all the difference, and being exactly 200 points, leaving plenty of room for 300 points teams (or a fun combo in a 200-point friendly match.)

azs, I'd love to see an Annihilus review next, as I believe he's the great MoD user everyone wishes for. Annihilus may not have the uber-stats, but running-shot addresses most of the criticism of Ultron.

[AZS]

Originally posted by CyberVenom
My favorite (yet a lot of people don't see why) combo with Ultron?
Why, that'd be E Ultron and V Joker!If you are implying that Joker can Mastermind damage to Ultron, then you would be mistaken because you can only MM damage to a lower cost fig.
If you're using him for the Batman enemy team ability, well there are a lot of better choices out there than V Joker.

[Mr. Pilkington]

As for E Ultron and V Joker, the Poison can help with people who base Ultron, and the Outwit is helpful, followed by some perplex. But as Azs (hee hee!) stated the Mastermind all the way down the dial is wasted unless you have someone else adjacent to him. While Joker should share Ultron's attack value, his small range and minimal damage make that less useful.

[AnOnymOu5]

I've found the Boomatron combo to be devestating in tourney play. E Ultron and E Boomarang just take turns using Ultron's attack value to throw out double Energy Explosions. Throw in a Doombot and a Shield Medic, and you can dish out some insane amounts of damage.

Since Boomerang is using Ultron's attack value, I push him almost constantly, when he loses EE, he picks up dual arrow incapicate, which is still pretty effective. The doombot follows Ultron around giving Shield bonuses, and pulls him out of combat when he gets smacked.

I've never seen Ultron die on one turn, and after he is hit, his defense plummets so much he's a reasonably easy heal.

E Boomatron 173
E Doombot (only one I have) 33
V Shield Medic 16

Leaving you with 88 points of filler. R Black Panther would be a nice addition, or maybe a Black Cat/SWitch, since Boomatron rarely misses the probability might be wasted, but I love it for healing. I usually add another medic, I like the redundency there, usually use E Aim Medic, high attack value (For a medic), and I like having another useful team ability for Ultron and Doombot. In a mixed game, I like using Robin, with stealth, Ultron is nearly invincible.

[LuckyJ]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet, cuz I don't have time to read the whole thread right now.

I do have an E ultron strategy, though. E Annihilus and E Ultron. You get the benefits of Klaw (10 range, good attack, MoD) in Annihilus, but he can be an Ultron taxi with his 3 clix of running shot and still be a great attacker himself!

Also, in mixed games, throw in a Vet Hawkman with a V Bullseye. You've got your defense sharing ability (JSA) and your attack sharing ability (Sinister syndicate) and so you essentially have 2 Ultrons for the price of...well...one + 103.

People will hate you forever with this combo. While I don't think it's really the best, it's plenty annoying. :p

[Spiritual_Ex]

Just addressing the energy explosion point. Assuming a character has EE and Multiple ranged attack icons he can indeed do damage to a toughness or invulnerable character. "all damage done by each 'explosion' takes place at the same time, so Toughness & Invulnerability can only stop part of the damage".

Perhaps you don't think that's significant, but I feel it is. Veteran Ultron can be extremely effective in this regard, hitting for alot of damage when firing 3 EE and supported by Enhancement (Gee, Psylocke might be #### usefull in the next set), and/or Sheild team ability. A character hit by all three blasts would take 6 damage, which isn't too shabby in my mind. Granted, it is hard to pull off, but even knowing Ultron can do this can break your opponents battle plan, as he is forced to space his figures out.

I agree I wouldn't put Ultron in the top 20, but I still think he is a good piece (I don't really see Azs desputing this too much with the points he makes; which are valid, but don't convince me he is anything but a decent clix).

[bakija]

Styrix wrote:
>> azs, I'd love to see an Annihilus review next, as I believe he's the great MoD user everyone wishes for. Annihilus may not have the uber-stats, but running-shot addresses most of the criticism of Ultron.>>

Ya know, I see a lot of people poo-poo Annihilus, but I'm really fond of him. He isn't incredibly flashy or anything, but he is fairly cost effective and good at combat--primarily 'cause he is a running shot taxi with a range 10, three damage attack. Good attack number, reasonable speed, and invulnerability. The R version isn't that hot, as he only does 2 damage, but E is very solid, what with his MoD ability and three damage. V is certainly solid, but expensive for not much improvement (an extra click of 3 damage and invulverability, mostly).

His low defense is an issue (made less so by his invulnerability), and if you outwit his invulnerability, he is in trouble, but that is the same problem pretty much *any* big figure has.

-Peter

[Styrix]

The Vet has three arrows over the Exp's 2. Not much of a differenece, but worth it if taxied with someone with enhancement, and 2 damage to 3 figs, all the way down the dial, is nice enough for the 10 points for me.

[thechuck]

I respect and appreciate your reviews and insight AZS, however, I will have to strongly disagree with you on this one.

I like to call Ultron the "Cheese-cutter" because he can cut through the cheese of Firelords and Invisible girls. No one can rival his stats for the point cost (E version, not V) and while, yes, he needs help, he's still a beast.

Your main, and strongest, arguement is that he only does 3 damage for the points. However, if all you're doing is straight up attacking with Ultron, you're not playing him right. This is like saying "Invisible girl is over rated because she can only do 1 damage while other similar costed figures can do more." That's not what she's for, and, it's not what Ultron is for. Here is what Ultron is for:

1. Wild-card+18 defense+defenders. This is helpfull if you're using Doc Strange with other wild-cards (doombots) The doc becomes very difficult to hit and the support staff is hard to hit as well.

2. Shared AV. When used with SS members like Boomerang, Bullseye or Sandman, Ultron truly shines. With multiple figures attacking with a 13, even the invisible cheese won't stand up long.

3. Mutlti-shot EE. When used correctly, this is DEVISTATING. With a SHIELD bonus or enhancement, this can destroy your opponant if they have their figures positioned together. This is especially helpful with all the cheese-heads using Invisible girl and sitting in a box on the roof.

You say that he requires support and isn't good on his own. However, you have V Dr. Doom as your #2 figure. He way more dependent on good support than Ultron, and, he leaves you far less points to do it with. You rank V Thor very highly and say that Ultron needs a taxi to hit people. Sure he does. But, you can have Ultron and a free move taxi for less than V Thor. Even Firelord is pretty much useless without a taxi as he can be easily outranged.

Anyway, I'm not "attacking" anyone. I'm just offering my differing opinion on this topic.

[AZS]

Chuck, I don't think Ultron is in any way bad, I just think he's overrated.
Most of your suggestions were addressed in the review or in responses. Using him with SinSyn makes him an over priced taxi.
Using him with Doc Strange wastes points just to get the defense. Using him with Shield means you're kinda stuck on movement.
The best thing he has going for him is multi-shot EE and that's good, but only 2 arrows worth, so not 'great.'

Anyway, I think one thing that a lot of people misinterpreted of my list is that I stuck with my regular 2 - 300 pt context. I didn't. I chucked that out the window and just rated figs on overall cool.
Vet Thor rocks because with Running shot he can carry a Shield Medic (or doombot) and hit for 5 clicks. He also has more clicks of invulnerability than Ultron. Dr. Doom similarly has Running Shot and mastermind, so he nearly never has to take damage.
Both these figs are self supporting. All the arguments I hear for Ultron require these huge elaborate teams all designed to support him and use the wildcard ability. I feel that's relying too much on Ultron, who, like you said doesn't do a lot of damage.

I'm not attacking back, just clarifing my point.
Personally, often I don't even ~really~ look at a figure until I write my reviews of them, then I disect them. I used to think Ultron was a great fig, until I had to defend leaving him off 'the list' and upon closer scrutiny, he kinda fell apart.

[Thorgrin]

uhm, I think you forget to take into account (for the exp version) that he is best paired up with someone that has running shot. Like Annihilus, Super Skrull, Dr. Doom or Thor.

I'll concede it's hard to put him into a 300 point game, but 400+, he's very viable. Just my 2 cents. :)

with an Annihilus, you can almost get two attacks off at 3 points each. That's pretty powerful, IMHO.

[Styrix]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
with an Annihilus, you can almost get two attacks off at 3 points each. That's pretty powerful, IMHO. Yeah, but you can do that with Annihilus and Vet Torch too, with a second running shot. Or with a Bullseye, and share AV. Or an E Strange, for 7 damage and shared defense. Or many others. Sure, pairing Ultron up with Annihilus makes Ultron better, but maybe that's because of Anihilus, not Ultron.

Then again, I'm an Annihilus nut. :D

[Styrix]

Double posted. D'oh! Moderator; please delete this one. Please?

[Thorgrin]

There in lies the problem. First off, Vet Torch doesn't have invulnerability and is easy to hit (especially in b2b) whereas Ultron is an 18 base. Also, Ultron has the flexibility of doing EE on his first click. Human Torch does not. Human Torch doesn't have as many clicks as Ultron and doesn't have a higher attack value as Ultron. For 73 points, I'd take an E Dr. Strange which has a higher defense, more damage and more useful powers.

Same with Bullseye. You get someone b2b with him, his 3 damage becomes 1. That and he even has less clicks than a vet human torch. Not saying he isn't a good piece, but you can't compare the two as Ultron also has the ability to fly and carry. I've seen it happen before where someone bases ultron and annihilus (my two favorite combo) and I would have 3 chances to break away (with scarlet witch). Once with Annihilus, once with Ultron and more time if I really need to.

As far as pairing up Ultron with Annihilus, it's pairing him up with anyone that has running shot or is a taxi. You could make the case of Ultron being taxied up by Exp Vulture, taking a shot. Then Annihilus doing a running shot, getting next to Ultron, attacking at his attack value and following up with Dr. Strange, Firelord or another ranged guy that Annihilus was toting around. The first shot that Ultron hits with helps out the other guys tremendously.

First point on that is Ultron has an attack value that is really high and will more than likely hit someone. Anyone that doesn't have invulnerability or toughness is now pretty hurt (other than Hulk, that is). Annihilus comes up and blasts again on that hurt person and even if he's not adjacent to Ultron, the figure's defense is sure to be down at this point and Annihilus has a good attack rating of his own. Even if you miss with Annihilus, the person he's bringing up should still hit.

Again, in a 300 point game, it's pretty hard to justify him. 400+, he's very, very good. Why should he be a taxi when there are PLENTY of cheap taxi's out there...? If that's the measuring bar, then Bullseye isn't as good then because if he's grounded and needs to move on his own, then he's just a 43 point boat anchor because I know my next move is to move anyone with toughness right up on him.

I'm also not advocating he should be in a top 10-20, but I think the limited reasons on why he isn't there is a bit lacking and not thinking of other creative ways in getting him in there.

Originally posted by Styrix
Yeah, but you can do that with Annihilus and Vet Torch too, with a second running shot. Or with a Bullseye, and share AV. Or an E Strange, for 7 damage and shared defense. Or many others. Sure, pairing Ultron up with Annihilus makes Ultron better, but maybe that's because of Anihilus, not Ultron.

Then again, I'm an Annihilus nut. :D

[the itsy bit]

E Ultron has a 13 attack value and EE/2 targets and stuff , but in the end when all the dust has settled he only does 1 damage to a fig with INV.
Sure Psylocke/Shield can boost his damage and MoD is pretty good, but I can still see why AZS didn't put him in the top 20.

V Dr.Doom was nr.2 Why ?
because for me he has coolness-factor, something the Adamantium droid just doesn't have^:p
RS with a decent attack value and damage is also more self-sustainable.
Ultron is usefull in 300+ WITH MoD ability to add to his powers, the Ultron without MoD are just empty shells.

While you can taxi him with a Doombot (there's that help from Doom again !) there's no questioning it's going to get ugly for the opponent it just doesn't appeal to me.

[Thorgrin]

So the whole basis of the top 20 is if someone can actually hit on their own and looks "cool". Hmmm, oooookkkkk...

I like Doom, don't get me wrong. He's got lots of powers, good team ability and RS, but if the basis is people that can do stuff on their own, then I guess you have to put everyone with running shot first (I mean, lets be realistic here, if you get the first shot, you're decreasing the figure's defense, attack rating and damage, with the exception of hulk and thanos). Priority of running shot should be people that can get past invulnerability as well as that seems to be the biggest concern as well.

So that puts Super Skrull, Dr. Doom (can perplex his damage up to 4), Thor, human torch, annihilus, Blastaar, cyclops, Ned Leeds, hawkeye and blizzard. So that takes up the first 10 spots.

As far as taxi, why do you need to taxi with a doombot? Again? a rookie vulture would suffice. Heck an exp Vulture would be better so that you give the rest of the team with wild cards the sinister syndicate.

There are a LOT of characters on the list of the top 20 that would only do 1 point to an invulnerable guy as well. So should we base it solely on those that can even do 4 points?

That'd be like Thor, Dr. Doom, Super Skrull, Hulk (eventually), Juggernaut, hercules, thing, she-hulk, dr. strange, firelord, klaw, cyclops, etc.

See where I'm getting at here? I have no problem with Azs's top 20 figures. It's a good list for the style of play he likes to play with and in general the figures that do very well and is on most people's top 20 list. With that said, some of the reasons why he dogged Ultron aren't really good excuses.

For the most part, he's fairly well balanced as far as his stats are concerned. You can outwit invulnerability and energy explosion. In the end, it's still an 18 defense, 13 attack rating and 3 damage. period. You can outwit bullseye's RCE. You can outwit Cyclops's running shot, RCE or energy deflection, etc.

He may not be in the top 20, but he would easily fit in the top 30, IMHO.

[Perrin]

I wonder why the other Ultron enthusiast are so worried about other people agreeing that Ultron is here or there on the most powerful list. Quite honestly a figure that costs more then 100 points SHOULD be good :D .

Incedently, I am fielding ultron teams in a 400 point Marvel and 500 point mixed on line tourny that is going on through Feb. In my first 2 games I defeated another ultron team in the mixed and completly destroyed a FL team in the marvel (the teams were very simular except for the main gun).

While FL has RCE, that is pretty easy to deal with(outwit stealth barrier et all) Ultron has 2 more inches of range which is a pretty big advantage. And as for Ultron "only doing 3" in both games I did as many as 6 clix of damage to several figures at the same time with EE. It takes some ability to manuver but EE is far more deadly then RCE, especially with multiple bolts on the dial. While I think Ultron is a better mini then FL he also costs more so he should be better.

In all things HC, it isnt the mini you should fear, it is the player, or the dice lol

Thanks for the interesting threads AZS. see ya in march!
:cool:

[Gorrack]

Ok, Azs, I REALLY have to disagree with you on this one. I am not so much a fan of using Ultron myself except in Mixed, but I have a friend who ALWAYS uses him, and ive faced Ultron countless times in tournements and I fear him more so than Firelord even. Let me leave it like this, if you DONT run Outwit, you LOSE to Ultron rather quickly most times. Heres my opinions, about PURE marvel only. If we go to Mixed, hes the best fig in the game, hands down.

Ok, 10 range, 13 attack, 18 defense 10 movememnt and 3 damage. Everyones covered that. EE and 2 targets, yeah, been there too. Now his defense drops fast...first, you gotta hit him. Second, pair him with Dr Strange. You have an 18 defense fig with Invuln and an 18 defense fig with 20 defense vs ranged. If based, the pair can Phase free and attack. I have no problem using Dr Strange to attack over Ultron as I know Strange packs a stronger damage if he hits. Or I can stay back defensively and attack with Ultron at lesser range. Next up, for a mere 27 points, you can throw in Doombot as another taxi, who ALSO gets the 18 defense. Dont want to waste time as using Strange or Ultron to taxi? Well, use the Doombot, who wildcards the Defenders ability and still has an 18 defense. Throw in a 20 point Vulture and get the SS ability to let those doombots has an 18 defense and a 13 attack! Throw in Shield Medic, and your Doombots can be used to enhance Ultrons EE, as does Dr Strange! Thats alot of versitility and very hard to crack in a 300 point+ game. Invisible Girl can be helpful as well, late game. But its not as helpful as Dr Strange.

Ultron also has INSANE EE skills, so you can use him either as a defense sharer with Strange in a team, or go for a EE cheese team, which PUNISHES Invisible Girl teams. Invisible Girl huddle teams are REALLY hard to break otherwise, and Ultron is the only reason I dont run one. Heres a sample team...

Ultron- 139 points
Dr Strange- 71 points
Doombot- 27 points
Doombot-27 points
Vulture- 20 points
Shield Medic- 16 points

Ok, you get THREE taxis, three peices with 13 attack and 18 defense, MAD EE skills, and Dr Strange...what more could you want in a team short of outwit?

Find flaws in that. Its hard. I feel Ultron is one of the most powerful figures in the game, and has single handedly made Outwit nearly mandatory in tournements. Without him, the types of teams seen play would change drastically in my view. I am a HUGE supporter of alot of what you say Azs, just not this one, so lets get some respective criticism going :) I dont get into rages or bashes lol ( unless ur an ####### like that brazil guy :P )

[Perrin]

Congrats AZS you have started some very interesting conversations lol IMO you cant rate these mini's against eachother because of how dynamic the game is. Everything is changable, team size, playing board, and build rules.

For example in a 200 point game FL is a god! and Ultron is barely playable. By the time you get to 400 points, FL is at best a peripheral cannon and good decoy, and Ultron can be the conerstone of a very tough team. Make it a mixed 400+ and I doubt you will even see a FL fielded, and you will see Ultron being the most comonly used mini.

When I read your post, I read it as your top twenty favorite mini's and enjoyed your oppinions on each of them. You were the first person I ever saw whe shared my oppinion how flawed the vaunted E Batman was.

My Favorite mini is V Thor! he is the king o' KOOL as far as I am concerned. I prefer themed build rules (house favorite is TEAM themes) I grew up reading Avengers comics and Thor was one of my Favorite Avengers. BUT! if I am playing in a tourney that I want to have a chance to win, and the build total is high enough to feild V Thor.... well I am building an Ultron team.


Gorrack wrote ....
"Ultron- 139 points
Dr Strange- 71 points
Doombot- 27 points
Doombot-27 points
Vulture- 20 points
Shield Medic- 16 points

Ok, you get THREE taxis, three peices with 13 attack and 18 defense, MAD EE skills, and Dr Strange...what more could you want in a team short of outwit?

Find flaws in that. Its hard. ...."

You can make it better by replacing one of the doombots with r black panther, now you have outwit and a free move taxi. And 300 points on the nose. (not to mention a team I once built lol though BP was interchangable with other free move people around the same cost depending on what I wanted to try.) In a three hundred point game Ultron is tough, but very beatable. He gets a lot better the higher the point total. And I agree, in a mixed game. he is GOD.

[CyberVenom]

Honestly, I play the Ultron/Joker combo for visuals more than playability (although what I do is, in fact, use the Batman Enemy ability to up Joker's attack).

I could just see Joker flailing about while a seriously mean Ultron carries him by his collar, just waiting to drop him from the sky! :D

[Gorrack]

Im glad you thought my team was pretty good. I recounted and I believe it is 300 points exact. Otherwise the change you suggested would be infinitely better. Ultron and Dr Strange is 210 points. The doombots total 54. Thats 264 right there. Add 20 for the Vulture to get 284. Thats 16 left over, perfect for a Shield Medic.

I feel that Ultron is very much so one of the top teams in 300 points. If any team wasnt beatable, the game would be thouroughly unbalanced. I personally would much rather face a Firelord team than an Ultron team. I feel for 139 points he can be much more of a threat than just about any peice, INCLUDING the cheeselord himself. His Invulnerability is what makes him worth it. The point of two Doombots over the Black Panther, which is a reasonable substitution is that you reasonably get 4 strong attackers in the team. The vulture can be easily picked off, and is used for his SS ability more than anything. ANYWAYS, back to Ultrons viability and OFF the subject of this team itself.

139 points is NOT THAT hard to fit into 300 points. Thats 161 points to fool around with. You can fit a medic, a good taxi, Invisible Girl and Firelord in there with extra points to spare. For instance...

139- Ultron
81 - firelord
16- aim medic
15- Vulture
27- Black Panther
20- Vulture

I mean, realistically, you can still fit a good deal of fire power into a team with ultron. Firelord and Ultron are pretty vicious together. To say you cant realistically use Ultron in a 300 point game isnt very true. I can easily make many teams based on ultron, all of which are easily competitive. The 3 damage isnt a horrible downfall either. Its second highest in the game second to RCE or GASP! the AWESOMELY playable Hulk. 3 damage will cripple any character to the point where it is difficult to damage Ultrons 18 defense and Invulnerability. Throw in that most teams based on Ultron utilize some form of Damage increasement to up EE, you can easily deal 4+ damage if need be. And the damage he can do in a group is insane. EE at 2 targets with Enhancement and a Shield action is game winning. Use enhanced two target shots to take out a players medics in one shot. Without medics, that 3 damage begins to look much more intimadating, doesnt it? If played smartly, and by an experienced player with the team, Ultron is a good mix of brute force and strategy that can compete head to head with any peices in the game. For instance...lets take an example of why a team like the one I listed could handle Firelord.

Ultron takes 5 from FIrelord assumably. Thats 3 due to Invuln. He still deals 3 damage with a 12 attack. 16 defense due to Defenders team ability. Hit with Dr Strange for 4 damage on a push. You than than get Enhancement. Your doombots than get to have some fun. OR take out the Firelords Taxi and base them with one of the Taxiing Doombots. Sacrifice one of your taxiis to keep firelord based, and it cant get away easily. The firelord is than helpless to be beaten on. Now we look at in BEST case scenario, where Ultron gets first hit. Firelords down to a 10 attack, needing an 8 to hit any of your figs, a 10 on Dr Strange, and only to deal 1 damage to Ultrons if he hits. So as you have stated, 3 damage isnt game winning, but when you combine it with Ultrons defensive skills, you can cripple a figure just enough that its hard to hurt Ultron. Even using his two arrows to hit two figures for an Enchanced two damage may be crippling enough to make it hard to penetrate Ultrons defenses. The team listed, and many like it, has no problem with Firelord as you take out the taxi, while leaving your 10 range to outdo his 8, and since it has to manually get in close, its an easy fight.

Anyways, I got notifications of a few replies since i started typing this, so i may have to update again...

[LarrySanders_0]

U CANT TAXI FLYING CHARACTERS

[Keleko]

Yeah, we know. But, at the time this review was written, taxiing flying characters was perfectly legal.

[bladestalker]

you could when this was posted. in FEBRUARY>

and STOP shouting!

[LarrySanders_0]

ooo touchy bunch arent ya

u could have left it alone but u had to run and defend ur beloved writer

come on people dont take it so seriously

[bakija]

>>ooo touchy bunch arent ya>>

Nah. Just irritated by folks who don't realize that a post that they are responding to is, like, 9 months old.

>>u could have left it alone but u had to run and defend ur beloved writer>>

You could have left it alone, realizing that it was a conversation that was 9 months dead.

>>come on people dont take it so seriously>>

Isn't a matter of serious.

-Peter

[LarrySanders_0]

sure it isnt

[TyeDyeSamurai]

Originally posted by LarrySanders_0
ooo touchy bunch arent ya

u could have left it alone but u had to run and defend ur beloved writer

come on people dont take it so seriously

Defend what?
You took a thread from February... 8 MONTHS before Indy rules become legal and decided to voice your ignorance.
Deal with the backlash or start thinking before you post.

[bakija]

Larry Sanders wrote:
>>sure it isnt>>

What does this even mean?

You somehow dug up a conversation that was, like, 9 months dead, somehow didn't realize that it was 9 months dead (which is kind of baffling, as it must have taken an awful lot of effort to find it...), declared in all caps that something was wrong, which only was wrong when taken out of context (i.e. the context of 9 months ago), and then got huffy when called on it.

It isn't a matter of serious. It is a matter of being irritated by people who don't bother to pay attention to what they are reading and what they are responding to. And calling them on it, in hopes of them not doing it again. 'Cause it is annoying. And possibly, we are doing you a favor, as people will respond to you in a more favorable manner if you don't do things like respond to conversations that are 9 months dead by yelling things in all caps that are essentially irrelevant.

But then, you are also free to ignore good advice.

-Peter

[DaLuvster89]

Bakija- because of you, I always check the dates on posts/threads anymore! ;) lol!

[LarrySanders_0]

Nice long letters you wrote people, i can see uve all got lots of passion about this subject, guess I jabbed a nerve. Really ive learnt my lesson, now leave it be its getting embarrasing.

[bladestalker]

I did a similar thing over on portent.net and got a warning for resurrecting old threads.

I dodn;t realize that Brtish dating convention is day/month/year
while I and less stodgey :) contries use
month/day/year

PS I can call ingland stodgey cause I have dual citizenship. Really it's right there in my passport.

[clark4christ]

Ok, unless I completely missed it in your review, you missed the deadliest quality of Ultron (quite possibly the deadliest in the game)...Multiple EE. You put the right pieces around him and use this properly it only takes a few moves to completely whip out a team. Here is a 400 team I have played can often devistate another player in one move.

E Ultron 139
R Green Lantern 81
V Psylocke 45
E Psylocke 39
V paramedic 12
R Robin 22
V Deathstroke 58 = 396 pts

I usually leave Robin and the medic somewhere safe, unless I actually need him, and position the rest around lantern and have him move them into position, setting Ultron on hindering terrain and mimicing Robin's team ability (this helps his Defense from dropping very fast.) If there are any of their other teams members next to each other Utron blast away with two EE for 3 a piece (Deathstroke can outwit any defensive power if needed) or 5 on one of them (this is usually not the case though.) There was one instance, because of how their team was set up, where I was able to put 6 clixs of damage on 3 figures, 5 on one, and 3 on two more!!! all because of splash damage!
So if you are looking at that 3 value on the dial, you are looking at the wrong thing.

[bakija]

Larry Sanders wrote:
>>Nice long letters you wrote people, i can see uve all got lots of passion about this subject, guess I jabbed a nerve.>>

Once again, not a nerve that is jabbed. Just handing out useful advice to people who seem to need it.

>>Really ive learnt my lesson, now leave it be its getting embarrasing.>>

I can live with that.

-Peter

[SpinnerLover]

Personally..I like Ultron, but needs a new sculpt. In the comics...he is a slim-deadly piece of art, but looking at the figuire...looks like he is wearing silver underwear.
Seriously, w/ the new rule changes...speed is the best ally. A 28 pt. Mandroid Armor could TK Ultron within range to do some serious nasty things. Throw in your own support characters add a couple cheap hookers to the mix and you got yourself a party!

[LarrySanders_0]

good lol

[gustav'smahler]

I have been successful using E Ultron, 2 other wild cards, and a defender in a circle formation around a medic (Jane Foster). With a SS character on the team too, all wild cards share the 18 defense AND 13 attack. Plus, the medic is protected and can "heal up" any damaged characters at the beginning of my turn. Granted, with the new taxi rules, this makes a first strike difficult, but this is a great counter-attack formation!

- Mark

[AZS]

Great formation. Add an X-man to the team and you can push Ultron then trade the click off to someone else.

Just beware of Pulse Wave. A little Blizzard could now decimate that formation! Especially since he'll disregard team abilities so even if he misses Ultron's 18 defense, he still has a good chance of hitting everyone else! Including Jane Foster.