View Full Version : TK Arbitration?
I'm pretty sure that I know the answer to this, but I wanted to be sure.
TELEKINESIS: Give this character a power action and choose one of the following options. (For all options, this character must have a clear line of fire to the target and is treated as if it has a range value of 8. For options 1 and 2, the target ignores the effects of elevated and hindering terrain on movement.) (1) Move an Opposing Character: This character makes one close combat or ranged combat attack that deals no damage. If the attack succeeds and the target has or possesses the damage symbol (but is not a double-base figure), move the target up to 8 squares so long as it ends its movement 8 or fewer squares from this character. (2) Move an Object or a Friendly Character: This character targets an object or a friendly character that is 8 or fewer squares away and moves it up to 8 squares so long as it ends its movement 8 or fewer squares from this character in a square to which this character has a clear line of fire. (3) Attack with an Object: This character makes a ranged combat attack targeting a single opposing character as if it occupies the square occupied by a non-held standard
object; this character must be 8 or fewer squares away from both the object and the target of the attack. The target of a successful attack using a light object is dealt 2 damage; a heavy object, 3 damage.
A guy who was playing tonight tried to TK starter Thing about 11 squares, I contended that this was not legal due to the underlined section, but he argued the point; he claimed it was in the errata/FAQ that this underlined portion was removed. I checked, it wasn't. He said it was Rules Arbitration then.
The guy used to be a Lvl 3 Envoy, and he's not the sort of person who would deliberately cheat, so I thought I'd put it out her for your input. Was there any such arbitration, or is it as cut and dried as it seems?
VanisherPunisher
11/08/2009, 04:55
I've never heard of such a thing and I think that if such a ruling existed it would have popped up from time to time on this board.
Quebbster
11/08/2009, 06:57
he's trying to trick you.
Don't let him unless he can show actual documentation.
Yeah, nothing like that was ever allowed.
within the TKer's Range, Line of Fire and only 8 from the target's starting square.
As far as I know you can't daisy chain TK a player clear across the board, is that right?
sinistersex
11/08/2009, 09:27
going back to elementary TK, just to clarify, a friendly fig 3 squares directly away from the tk'ing fig can only be moved an additional 5 squares directly from the tk'er, right? (I know other combos are possible, but as far as in a direct line from the tk'er, to keep it simple.)
going back to elementary TK, just to clarify, a friendly fig 3 squares directly away from the tk'ing fig can only be moved an additional 5 squares directly from the tk'er, right? (I know other combos are possible, but as far as in a direct line from the tk'er, to keep it simple.)
I think of it as three 8's.
The target starts within 8 away from the TKer.
The target ends within 8 away from the TKer.
The target ends within 8 from where it started.
tyroclix
11/08/2009, 09:38
going back to elementary TK, just to clarify, a friendly fig 3 squares directly away from the tk'ing fig can only be moved an additional 5 squares directly from the tk'er, right? (I know other combos are possible, but as far as in a direct line from the tk'er, to keep it simple.)
Yes.
TK works like this (requires line of fire):
A) The target must be within 8 squares of the TKer.
B) The target can be moved up to a maximum of 8 squares total PROVIDED the target is still within 8 squares of the TKer.
I think of it this way, I imagine a ring 8 squares away from the TKer. I can move anyone in that ring up to 8 squares but they cannot move outside of the 8 square ring.
To the OP: under the original TK rules a character could be moved up to 10 spaces away from the TKer which could allow for an 11 move TK if the target was behind the TKer (still putting them a maximum of 10 squares away from the TKer).
This has been changed under the FF rules and no errata has been created to affect it. With the hiatus and so many changes some times the rules bleed into each other which is why it is so important to write the rules correctly and clearly the first time.
sinistersex
11/08/2009, 09:42
didn't my example fall under the guidelines then? the tk'd fig could NOT be moved more than 5 squares directly away from the tk'r, in the instance I gave?
phantalien
11/08/2009, 10:01
I would also like to add that even with the old rules the maximum amount of squares you could TK a character was 10.
Tell your friend not be sign up to be an envoy if he keeps on having flashbacks like that.
The guy used to be a Lvl 3 Envoy
Oh yeah? Well, I'm a level 18 detector of horse #### and I say that this guy is pulling your chain.
gyrapados
11/08/2009, 10:51
didn't my example fall under the guidelines then? the tk'd fig could NOT be moved more than 5 squares directly away from the tk'r, in the instance I gave?
yes. you are correct.
beardedtoyman
11/08/2009, 10:55
I think if there is actual confusion it might come from the fact that the path the TKed character takes to its final spot can run past that 8 range limit, as long as the starting and ending points are within 8 of each other and within 8 of the TKer.
T= TKer S=Starting Point E=Ending Point 1-7=TK Path
XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXEXX
XXXXXXXXX7X
XXXXXXXXXX6
XXXXXXXXXX5
TXXXXXXXXX4
XXXXXXXXXX3
XXXXXXXXXX2
XXXXXXXXX1X
XXXXXXXXSXX
sinistersex
11/08/2009, 11:08
I think of it as three 8's.
The target starts within 8 away from the TKer.
The target ends within 8 away from the TKer.
The target ends within 8 from where it started.
perfect, simple way to remember. thanks to you and tyro.
krusticlese
11/08/2009, 12:41
I think if there is actual confusion it might come from the fact that the path the TKed character takes to its final spot can run past that 8 range limit, as long as the starting and ending points are within 8 of each other and within 8 of the TKer.
T= TKer S=Starting Point E=Ending Point 1-7=TK Path
XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXEXX
XXXXXXXXX7X
XXXXXXXXXX6
XXXXXXXXXX5
TXXXXXXXXX4
XXXXXXXXXX3
XXXXXXXXXX2
XXXXXXXXX1X
XXXXXXXXSXX
I'm pretty sure the target needs to stay within the 8 square range during the movement. Movement #7,6,5,4,3,2, & 1 would not be legal as the target has been moved outside of the 8 square range.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but If that is the case it doesn't make sense that you could extend your reach beyond 8 squares.
Gentlegamer
11/08/2009, 12:52
I encountered this kind of BS quite a bit in my tournament days: playing against a judge claiming there was some kind of ruling in the Judges Forum (AKA Secret Council) permitting an illegal action (that involved a bizarro interpretation of the rules). That's one of the reasons I'm against having "official" judges in the new tournament era.
I'm pretty sure the target needs to stay within the 8 square range during the movement. Movement #7,6,5,4,3,2, & 1 would not be legal as the target has been moved outside of the 8 square range.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but If that is the case it doesn't make sense that you could extend your reach beyond 8 squares.
Consider yourself corrected.
Nothing in the rules prevents the movement from going outside of the 8 squares.
The beginning needs to be within 8, and the end needs to be within 8. There's nothing stopping the path from going outside of the 8.
Yeah, I had to play against a former "Judge" the other night who was using 85+ points worth of feats in a 700 point game and claimed that he could do so because the "Official" rules were thrown out the window in the past year. I then claimed since there were no official rules, that my build total could be twice that of his and that every hit I made was considered to be a critical hit. His team had both Chase KC Superman and Sinestro Corps Batman!
No...you need to be more subtle.
Carry up one of your fliers and then make an attack with the guy who'd just been carried. That will shut him up.
Even with his cheating, I still took out both his Superman and His Batman in only 5 actions. This was without Outwit or Probability control. Purely the power of my Legion of Superheroes team.
The team wasn't using any version of Superman, Supergirl, or Mon-el either!
Thanks, guys! I was pretty sure that I was right, but since I was playing (it was a 3 for all) it seemed better to go with the, "I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I'll check," card rather than the, "Yeah, well, I'm the judge, so no," card.
As a bit of humor, since I allowed his BS I was also allowed to use it against him. While he went after the other guy, I tk'd my team clear across the board to tie up the other half of his team; nothing quite like 2 against 1! :devious:
necrodog
11/08/2009, 20:48
I encountered this kind of BS quite a bit in my tournament days: playing against a judge claiming there was some kind of ruling in the Judges Forum (AKA Secret Council) permitting an illegal action (that involved a bizarro interpretation of the rules). That's one of the reasons I'm against having "official" judges in the new tournament era.
Not following this line of reasoning, sorry. I agree there were some people who were judges and shouldn't have been, who had trouble either with cheating or with confusing house rules for actual rules (I had to put a lot of time and effort into convincing three different judges that no, Sealed did not allow you to play multiples of the same unique.) I sympathize with you for running into some bad apples. But to say there should not be official judges because some were either cheating or poorly understood the rules? Let's not have official tournaments because some players cheat, then. No venues, because some are dishonest. And no prize support because that's really what makes people cheat, anyway. In fact, let's just not play...
doctor_x
11/09/2009, 14:14
The feat card telekinetic reach is the only thing that overrides the current tk rules, correct?
To the OP: under the original TK rules a character could be moved up to 10 spaces away from the TKer which could allow for an 11 move TK if the target was behind the TKer (still putting them a maximum of 10 squares away from the TKer).
Not quite. In the old rules, you could move the TKd fig 10 squares, so, if the target figure was 1 square in front of you, you could move it 11 squares away from the TKing figure. You would 10 squares from the figure that was getting TKd away, so that one square in front of the TK, = the 10 of tk got you 11 squares.
Now, it's as you say, there is that 8 square zone around the TKing figure that the TKd figure must stay within.
normalview
11/09/2009, 14:31
The feat card telekinetic reach is the only thing that overrides the current tk rules, correct?
You can use Telekinetic Reach, sure, but it was much more useful when it first came out (with the old TK rules).
These days, you would essentially be paying 12 points to potentially move an object (and only an object) an extra 2 squares.
Thunderclese
11/09/2009, 14:32
It's a trick. Get an axe.
Yes.
TK works like this (requires line of fire):
Unless he's got Trick Shot :devious:
normalview
11/09/2009, 15:12
Unless he's got Trick Shot :devious:
Yes and no.
Prerequisites: Plasticity or Ranged Combat Expert
Choose a character.
When making an attack from a square that is not adjacent to an opposing character, the character ignores Stealth and team abilities that duplicate the effects of Stealth, and it ignores characters and hindering terrain for line of fire purposes.
So if you are attacking with TK, LOF is ignored. If all you are doing is pushing objects/friendly characters around, Trickshot can't be used.
Painkiller
11/11/2009, 06:49
Hi, folks!
Joining the ride instead of creating a new thread. :)
Playing the other day, a doubt came up:
My character was in contact with my oponents’. Another character of mine, with TK, uses a power action to move the one that is in contact, so that it may make a ranged attack. On the FF rulebook, it says that, in order to be moved by TK, the character must break away from its opponent.
This is the doubt: how this happens?
- I give a power action for the TK, the character that is in base contact rolls for break away and, If it works I move it, and if doesn’t, it stands?
- the character that rolled to break away gains an action token? It can make another action right after being TKlized?
- If the rolling for break away fails, the character with TK already earned its action token, and the action is over? And the character that failed the break away roll, also receives a token?
Which is the official ruling for this? If somebody has a “step-by-step” for this, I’ll be a happy man!
Thanks!
Quebbster
11/11/2009, 06:52
Hi, folks!
Joining the ride instead of creating a new thread. :)
Playing the other day, a doubt came up:
My character was in contact with my oponents’. Another character of mine, with TK, uses a power action to move the one that is in contact, so that it may make a ranged attack. On the FF rulebook, it says that, in order to be moved by TK, the character must break away from its opponent.
This is the doubt: how this happens?
- I give a power action for the TK, the character that is in base contact rolls for break away and, If it works I move it, and if doesn’t, it stands?
- the character that rolled to break away gains an action token? It can make another action right after being TKlized?
- If the rolling for break away fails, the character with TK already earned its action token, and the action is over? And the character that failed the break away roll, also receives a token?
Which is the official ruling for this? If somebody has a “step-by-step” for this, I’ll be a happy man!
Thanks!
It's fairly simple:
The figure with TK is the one taking the action, and thus gets the token, regardless of the success of the breakaway roll.
The figure being moved is the one that actually does the breakaway roll though, whioch could be relevant if there are any factors affecting the breakaway in play (Plasticity, Slippery, and :g-giant: comes to mind).
Gargantua
11/11/2009, 06:54
As far as I know you can't daisy chain TK a player clear across the board, is that right?
You can, if you have your TKer set up right. What you can't do is have a TKer TK after they themselves have been TKed.
VanisherPunisher
11/11/2009, 06:55
- I give a power action for the TK, the character that is in base contact rolls for break away and, If it works I move it, and if doesn’t, it stands?
Yes.
- the character that rolled to break away gains an action token? It can make another action right after being TKlized?
The action token goes for the character that used TK. The character that rolled for break away does not get a token and can make actions right away.
- If the rolling for break away fails, the character with TK already earned its action token, and the action is over? And the character that failed the break away roll, also receives a token?
Yes, the TKer gets a token and the action is over. The character that failed to break away does not get a token.
The figure being moved is the one that actually does the breakaway roll though, whioch could be relevant if there are any factors affecting the breakaway in play (Plasticity, Slippery, and :g-giant: comes to mind).
Obviously I don't want to begin a list of all of the things which could do it, but I think I'll add one of the biggest...Probability Control.
Quebbster
11/11/2009, 07:15
Obviously I don't want to begin a list of all of the things which could do it, but I think I'll add one of the biggest...Probability Control.
True dat. I was mostly thinking about abilities the figure being moved might have to make breakaway easier, but PC definitely factors in as well... you need to draw line of fire to the right figure, after all.
krusticlese
11/11/2009, 08:01
Consider yourself corrected.
Nothing in the rules prevents the movement from going outside of the 8 squares.
The beginning needs to be within 8, and the end needs to be within 8. There's nothing stopping the path from going outside of the 8.
That certainly seems counter intuitive to the intent of the rule (TK working within 8 squares) and quite a bit of a rules-lawyer type interpretation of the power because there wasn't wording that specifically says that any squares the TK'd character moves through must also be within an 8 square range.
Good to know for an 'official' tournament... but it's loophole judging like this that sucks the fun right out of a game.
That certainly seems counter intuitive to the intent of the rule (TK working within 8 squares) and quite a bit of a rules-lawyer type interpretation of the power because there wasn't wording that specifically says that any squares the TK'd character moves through must also be within an 8 square range.
Good to know for an 'official' tournament... but it's loophole judging like this that sucks the fun right out of a game.
It's been ruled that way since the change was first announced.
sinistersex
11/11/2009, 08:54
so leap/climb and phasing on a potential tk'd friendly fig also affect its being tk'd out of adjacency?
(actually, looking at the other options, it must only be powers/things that allow for a roll that allow you to help break away easier from a tk situation...)
Quebbster
11/11/2009, 08:59
so leap/climb and phasing on a potential tk'd friendly fig also affect its being tk'd out of adjacency?
No. Those powers only grant free breakaway when the figure is given an action. A figure being TKed is not given an action, so it has to be passive powers...
beardedtoyman
11/11/2009, 09:29
It's been ruled that way since the change was first announced.
Not just ruled that way. As I recall, that was specified in the WizKids site's article explaining the new rules, so it wasn't even a ruling/clarification, it was announced from the very beginning of the new rules.
Not just ruled that way. As I recall, that was specified in the WizKids site's article explaining the new rules, so it wasn't even a ruling/clarification, it was announced from the very beginning of the new rules.
You very well may be correct. I was thinking the same thing, but without being able to go verify that, I didn't mention it.
Hero_guy
11/11/2009, 10:42
That certainly seems counter intuitive to the intent of the rule (TK working within 8 squares) and quite a bit of a rules-lawyer type interpretation of the power because there wasn't wording that specifically says that any squares the TK'd character moves through must also be within an 8 square range.
Good to know for an 'official' tournament... but it's loophole judging like this that sucks the fun right out of a game.
So, going by what the rules state is rules lawyering and loophole judging? I suppose that telling my opponent his figure with PC needs LoF to the figure making the attack is also rules lawyering? It's whats the rules say and it was indeed explained this way either by the original article, as someone else stated, and/or by the former rules arbitor while WK was still up and running. Calling a ruling that you missed 'rules lawyering' or 'loophole judging' doesn't really seem fair to me, no? Or were you just saying that because you don't like that particular clarification?
mr-coffin
11/11/2009, 11:14
I'll put my 2 cents in and say that I prefer rules that are intuitive. 'tk works within 8 now instead of 10' I think is the most basic way to think about the new tk and although there are plenty of additional little elements added on to that (can't tk attack with special objects, tk'd character needs to make break way now, etc.) they fact that tk'd things can go outside of the 8 range during their journey is the only thing that seems to counter the basic premise.
And before you say it i know that the right way to learn the rules is each accurate and exact piece with no 'basic premise' at all, but he was talkign about sucking the fun out of things and I'm with him that its fun to fill my head with basic ideas, not a list of detailed rules. I know it is fun for many of us but its not for most people.
For instance its illegal to drink alcohol under the age of 21 if you are not in the presence of a parent. Although some people would know that they aren't breaking the law when they sneakily drink when their are parents around most of us would call that rules lawering (with a negative connotation).
For instance its illegal to drink alcohol under the age of 21 if you are not in the presence of a parent. Although some people would know that they aren't breaking the law when they sneakily drink when their are parents around most of us would call that rules lawering (with a negative connotation).
Um...what state are you talking about?!?!?
Terman8er
11/11/2009, 14:04
Even with his cheating, I still took out both his Superman and His Batman in only 5 actions. This was without Outwit or Probability control. Purely the power of my Legion of Superheroes team.
The team wasn't using any version of Superman, Supergirl, or Mon-el either!
I know, you used the Power Cosmic Multi-Attack 1200 point Galactus that you can use on any LoSH team for free, as ruled in the secret "cool kids and their jello" forums found right here on HCRealms.
Right?
Terman8er
11/11/2009, 14:09
Disregard post...timeline error.
Hero_guy
11/12/2009, 14:58
I'll put my 2 cents in and say that I prefer rules that are intuitive. 'tk works within 8 now instead of 10' I think is the most basic way to think about the new tk and although there are plenty of additional little elements added on to that (can't tk attack with special objects, tk'd character needs to make break way now, etc.) they fact that tk'd things can go outside of the 8 range during their journey is the only thing that seems to counter the basic premise.
And before you say it i know that the right way to learn the rules is each accurate and exact piece with no 'basic premise' at all, but he was talkign about sucking the fun out of things and I'm with him that its fun to fill my head with basic ideas, not a list of detailed rules. I know it is fun for many of us but its not for most people.
For instance its illegal to drink alcohol under the age of 21 if you are not in the presence of a parent. Although some people would know that they aren't breaking the law when they sneakily drink when their are parents around most of us would call that rules lawering (with a negative connotation).
I hear what you're saying, but I'd counter that the basic premise of '8 squares' actually adds another rule to remember rather than making it simpler. The rules now is:
Target is within 8 squares of Tk'er (with LoF).
Target ends within 8 squares of Tk'er (with LoF).
Target moves up to 8 squares.
The '8 squares' premise would add:
Movement path must remain within within 8 squares of the Tk'er.
Whereas not limiting the movement path to within 8 squares means that the TK rules are covered with the first three statements. It also further complicates/slows the game down because now you have to plot out the path and make sure that each square is within 8 squares of the TK'er. Whereas having the freedom to move in any direction, as long as the end point is within 8 squares means you only have to count distance to 2 squares (start and finish).
'tk works within 8 now instead of 10' I think is the most basic way to think about the new tk
Its short-hand rules like this that cause people to become confused about the rules.
When you replace a rule with a short-hand rule dont forget that its short-hand and not the rule.
I have seen this done several times with several different quick reminder tricks including the incorect NAAT short-hand.
Then it turns out that the actual rule is counter intuitive to your short-hand, but if you stayed with the actual rule it wouldnt be counter intutive at all.
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