Ragnarok Surtur + Fire Demons = yes/no?

[Sigdr]

So, the Fire Demons' special power relies on having a friendly Surtur within 8 squares.

Is Ragnarok Surtur Surtur-y enough to count as a Surtur for the purposes of this power?

[Kaitouace]

Yes. If not? House ruled to yes.

[normalview]

Very debatable.

"Surtur" is definitely part of "Ragnarok Surtur", but strictly speaking his name is not "Surtur".

Personally, I'd let it slide, but I would not be surprised if turns out R.S. can not properly lead his Fire Demons.

[Thunderclese]

It's splitting hairs at this point. I can see Michael Carter not counting as "Booster Gold" for "Bwahaha" since he technically isn't named Booster Gold, but Ragnarok Surtur is still namded Surtur, so I don't see how it'd hurt to allow it. I'll never throw a fit if someone uses them together.

[Lofcutus]

I don't see an issue with it. Between the point cost not getting you as many Fire Demons/available actions per round and the the name actually having Surtur in it, it seems like a wash to me.

[WarHULK]

If your venue won't let you use R.S. as Surtur for the Fire Demon's SP then I say it's time to find another place to play. Then again, I play for the fun of Heroclix.

[Harpua]

Without an errata entry, he would not count. See Esme Cuckoo and the trait she needed to make her work with Cuckoos.

[Sigdr]

Thanks, fellas. Hopefully the local group won't mind me Surturing it up. =)

[Puuka]

yet, the old REV Ulik will work with the rock trolls

[Jarimy123]

Yea I don't see any judge not allowing it. Except someone who uses themselves being a judge as a means to just be a dumbass power monger

[normalview]

Yea I don't see any judge not allowing it. Except someone who uses themselves being a judge as a means to just be a dumbass power monger

Or as someone who must consistently enforce the rules to ensure a level playing field for ALL players (like at a national level event, if we ever get those again).


Heaven forbid someone actually follows the rules :p


Like I said, I'd probably allow it... but only if the other players were okay with it.

[flatmatt]

Yea I don't see any judge not allowing it. Except someone who uses themselves being a judge as a means to just be a dumbass power monger
I will never understand the attitude that following the rules as they are written and as they have been written for years is somehow being a jerk.

[Repulsor rage]

yet, the old REV Ulik will work with the rock trolls

You know its funny I was thinking about this because I really like the old exp

[Hero_guy]

I will never understand the attitude that following the rules as they are written and as they have been written for years is somehow being a jerk.

Quoted, bolded, italicized and underlined for truth. Just because you want to play in a way that seems more care-free and someone else prefers not to, doesn't make you right or any more superior in any sense than said guy. I wish people would just see that its actually being a bit elitist when they say things like that. "I'm allowing the rules to be bent, I'm so much cooler. You're not so you're a loser." Really? Really????

In any case, I'd say that it doesn't work. Surtur is not the same as Ragnarok Surtur just, as Harpua pointed out, like Esme Cuckoo is not the same as Cuckoo. If it were allowed I wouldn't care, but I wouldn't outright expect/demand that other players feel the same way as I do.

[absolutvt69]

I'd allow it. On a "big scale, high stakes event" level I could see it not being allowed, but for the majority of the tournaments I prefer to go with the spirit and intent even if the wording is a bit janky.

[Quebbster]

I'd allow it. On a "big scale, high stakes event" level I could see it not being allowed, but for the majority of the tournaments I prefer to go with the spirit and intent even if the wording is a bit janky.
The big question then becomes: How do you know what the intent was?
There's good arguments for both sides, quite frankly.
At my venue, we don't care that much and would probably allow it. However, if someone insisted we play by the letter of the law we would do it.

[Harpua]

I will never understand the attitude that following the rules as they are written and as they have been written for years is somehow being a jerk.

Quoted, bolded, italicized and underlined for truth. Just because you want to play in a way that seems more care-free and someone else prefers not to, doesn't make you right or any more superior in any sense than said guy. I wish people would just see that its actually being a bit elitist when they say things like that. "I'm allowing the rules to be bent, I'm so much cooler. You're not so you're a loser." Really? Really????

In any case, I'd say that it doesn't work. Surtur is not the same as Ragnarok Surtur just, as Harpua pointed out, like Esme Cuckoo is not the same as Cuckoo. If it were allowed I wouldn't care, but I wouldn't outright expect/demand that other players feel the same way as I do.

Reps all around

[absolutvt69]

The big question then becomes: How do you know what the intent was?
There's good arguments for both sides, quite frankly.
At my venue, we don't care that much and would probably allow it. However, if someone insisted we play by the letter of the law we would do it.

Is Ragnarok Surtur a different character than Surtur? That's a legit questions because I don't know my Thor comics very well. If it's the same character then I think it'd be hard to argue that the intent was not to allow him to count for the minions. I totally understand playing by the rules but in this case, at a low level event at a local venue, I'm having a hard time seeing why someone would have a problem with this. It'd be like someone trying to say that a figure with the "Skrulls" keyword couldn't be on a "Skrull" theme team (which I believe happened at one point and was errated but I would have ruled it was ok regardless of errata).

[Harpua]

Is Ragnarok Surtur a different character than Surtur? That's a legit questions because I don't know my Thor comics very well. If it's the same character then I think it'd be hard to argue that the intent was not to allow him to count for the minions. I totally understand playing by the rules but in this case, at a low level event at a local venue, I'm having a hard time seeing why someone would have a problem with this. It'd be like someone trying to say that a figure with the "Skrulls" keyword couldn't be on a "Skrull" theme team (which I believe happened at one point and was errated but I would have ruled it was ok regardless of errata).

That did actually happen, as did several others.

Currently, for example, Alan Scott has the Green Lantern keyword. By the rules, he cannot go onto a Green Lantern Corps themed team. There was errata for that and some others, but they were, unfortunately, removed prematurely.

[llyrghmnghyll]

If Ragnarok Surtur counts as Surtur does Son of Surtur also Count - they both have Surtur in the name.

I'm more accustomed to these sorts of Debates as is anyone who deals with Uniqueness issues from SW minis. Personally I would allow it as a judge but mostly because RS plus 2 fire demons comes to just shy of 299 points (i.e. a full team). That said I think you'd be better to go with the SR plus 4 demons and 15 points of feats.

By the letter of the law no it does not count and if anything serious is on the line I'd say no until further notice.

[songwriterz]

If Ragnarok Surtur counts as Surtur does Son of Surtur also Count - they both have Surtur in the name.

I'm more accustomed to these sorts of Debates as is anyone who deals with Uniqueness issues from SW minis. Personally I would allow it as a judge but mostly because RS plus 2 fire demons comes to just shy of 299 points (i.e. a full team). That said I think you'd be better to go with the SR plus 4 demons and 15 points of feats.

By the letter of the law no it does not count and if anything serious is on the line I'd say no until further notice.

No, because "Son of Surtur" is an entirely different character than Surtur. Ragnarok Surtur is the exact same character as Surtur, they just stuck an adjective on his name to tie him to the Ragnarok storyline. If the rules had said a character named "Thor" would you disallow "Mighty Thor"? Of course not! Even "Thor the Reigning" is still Thor, God of Thunder, Son of Odin, Scion of Asgard, etc...

Ragnarok Surtur and Surtur are the exact same Marvel Comics Character.

[Harpua]

No, because "Son of Surtur" is an entirely different character than Surtur. Ragnarok Surtur is the exact same character as Surtur, they just stuck an adjective on his name to tie him to the Ragnarok storyline. If the rules had said a character named "Thor" would you disallow "Mighty Thor"? Of course not! Even "Thor the Reigning" is still Thor, God of Thunder, Son of Odin, Scion of Asgard, etc...

Ragnarok Surtur and Surtur are the exact same Marvel Comics Character.

But the rules do not give a flying fig about who the character is in the comics. It's been this way since the beginning. That's why Arthur Curry from Hypertime was arch-enemies with Aquaman.

[Quebbster]

Is Ragnarok Surtur a different character than Surtur? That's a legit questions because I don't know my Thor comics very well. If it's the same character then I think it'd be hard to argue that the intent was not to allow him to count for the minions.
I'll just sum up my point very quickly: I have no way to know what GD was thinking. They have done some odd rulings in the past, so this one could easily be disallowed. Or not. But the 'intent' is not something we can know for sure, just guess.
I totally understand playing by the rules but in this case, at a low level event at a local venue, I'm having a hard time seeing why someone would have a problem with this. It'd be like someone trying to say that a figure with the "Skrulls" keyword couldn't be on a "Skrull" theme team (which I believe happened at one point and was errated but I would have ruled it was ok regardless of errata).
Here we agree. But still: If someone expressed a problem with it I would need to rule in that person's favor.

[WakandaMan]

I tend to think they don't work together. I think it is done that way as an incentive for people to chase down the SR Surtur, instead of just sticking with the easier to acquire BiBtB version.

[songwriterz]

Well, lets look at what the power actually says: "When a friendly character named Surtur is within 8 squares, Fire Demon can use Charge and modifies its attack value by +1".

Notice it does NOT say "When Surtur is within 8 squares, Fire Demon can use Charge and modifies its attack value by +1". It says "When a friendly character named Surtur..."

If the intention had been to limit this power to use only when the SR Surtur was within 8 squares, then there would have been no need to add the "named" part. By adding the word "named" they clearly opened this up to include more than one "Surtur".

Besides, what would be the harm in opening it up to include the ragnarok version of Surtur, anyway? Does that grant some unfair advantage over using the SR version of Surtur?

[Quebbster]

Well, lets look at what the power actually says: "When a friendly character named Surtur is within 8 squares, Fire Demon can use Charge and modifies its attack value by +1".

Notice it does NOT say "When Surtur is within 8 squares, Fire Demon can use Charge and modifies its attack value by +1". It says "When a friendly character named Surtur..."

If the intention had been to limit this power to use only when the SR Surtur was within 8 squares, then there would have been no need to add the "named" part. By adding the word "named" they clearly opened this up to include more than one "Surtur".
It wouldn't be the first example of redundant wording causing incorrect conclusions. See for instance Mutations and Monster's Gorgon and Professor X.

Besides, what would be the harm in opening it up to include the ragnarok version of Surtur, anyway? Does that grant some unfair advantage over using the SR version of Surtur?
I don't see any immediate harm in it - particularly not since SR Surtur also benefits from being played with Fire Demons - but I cannot say what the long-term consequences of a generous interpretation would be.

[songwriterz]

I cannot say what the long-term consequences of a generous interpretation would be.

I can...more fun!!!

[Quebbster]

I can...more fun!!!

I am more concerned about future rulings having to correlate to the precedence set by (Ragnarok) Surtur.

My preferred solution would be to issue a clarification saying "Ragnarok Surtur is considered to be named Surtur for the purposes of Frie Demon's special power." But who know if we are going to get that?

[songwriterz]

I am more concerned about future rulings having to correlate to the precedence set by (Ragnarok) Surtur.

My preferred solution would be to issue a clarification saying "Ragnarok Surtur is considered to be named Surtur for the purposes of Frie Demon's special power." But who know if we are going to get that?

You're right. Even when debating the rules I tend to get a little facetious - its my nature to have as much fun as possible with everything I do.

Yes, we need a ruling from Wizkids on this, but in the meantime, I think we could err on the side of caution and let people use RS, since there are likely to be more of those around than the SR Surtur for awhile yet.

Harpua?

[Harpua]

Well, lets look at what the power actually says: "When a friendly character named Surtur is within 8 squares, Fire Demon can use Charge and modifies its attack value by +1".

Notice it does NOT say "When Surtur is within 8 squares, Fire Demon can use Charge and modifies its attack value by +1". It says "When a friendly character named Surtur..."

If the intention had been to limit this power to use only when the SR Surtur was within 8 squares, then there would have been no need to add the "named" part. By adding the word "named" they clearly opened this up to include more than one "Surtur".
I think this logic is bass-ackwards.

Adding the "named" does nothing but narrow down who can use it to only those whose name is exactly Surtur.

For goodness sake, Laz Pit syas that it cost "10 if RA's al Ghul is the chosen character."

That's far less restrictively worded than the Fire Demons in that it states that the "character" needs to be Ra's, but even there that was ruled to mean only figures named exactly Ra's al Ghul.

I can't see how they would make the wording more restrictive in order to open it up.


Yes, we need a ruling from Wizkids on this, but in the meantime, I think we could err on the side of caution and let people use RS, since there are likely to be more of those around than the SR Surtur for awhile yet.

Harpua?

I have as many Surturs as I do Ragnarok Surturs, if that's what you are asking. (2 of each) ;)

(They're available for trading. :grin:)

[spideyguy51]

I never would have thought that it would not be allowed, but then again, diet coke is not coke, so maybe there is some room for debate here.

[Hero_guy]

I think this logic is bass-ackwards.

Adding the "named" does nothing but narrow down who can use it to only those whose name is exactly Surtur.

For goodness sake, Laz Pit syas that it cost "10 if RA's al Ghul is the chosen character."

That's far less restrictively worded than the Fire Demons in that it states that the "character" needs to be Ra's, but even there that was ruled to mean only figures named exactly Ra's al Ghul.

I can't see how they would make the wording more restrictive in order to open it up.

That's how I see it also. On the other hand, if the next set had a remake of Surtur, than that figure would also qualify to trigger the Fire Demon's minion ability.

Venues can and should feel free to house rule it any way they wish to, with the understanding that every player at the venue both agrees and understands that it is an house rule and not part of the actual rules of HC.

[Thunderclese]

I'd say as long as nobody has a major beef with using the BibtB version at your venue, then go for it. If there's an official ruling, then there's an official ruling.

Question: Were the game designers from HoT the same ones from Mutations?

[normalview]

I'd say as long as nobody has a major beef with using the BibtB version at your venue, then go for it. If there's an official ruling, then there's an official ruling.

Question: Were the game designers from HoT the same ones from Mutations?

No. Seth Johnson designed Armor Wars through Arkham Asylum.

Hammer of Thor was the first set designed by Kelly something-or-other (whom, I think, had until that point being designing for Mech Warrior).

[WarHULK]

No. Seth Johnson designed Armor Wars through Arkham Asylum.

Hammer of Thor was the first set designed by Kelly something-or-other (whom, I think, had until that point being designing for Mech Warrior).

I believe her name is Kelly Bonila. Something close to that.

[spideyguy51]

The fire demons power says "March to Ragnarok", so surely Ragnarok Surtur would work.

[Miraclo]

I understand judges wanting to be conservative on these matters in order to preserve their authority by trying to rule consistently with previous, similar situations.

However, as the character is Surtur, the modifier "Ragnarok" just emphasizing this is Surtur pumped up for a specific, end-of-the-universe-as-we-know-it event, an official ruling against being able to lead his minions would seem...petty? Somewhat ignorant from a character and story side of things? Still, there was such a ruling against Esme Cuckoo (didn't know, as I don't have one) then I can understand a judge's caution.

Hopefully when the new Wizkids appoints someone at the level of a Rules Arbiter (soon?) we'll get an official ruling that Ragnarok Surtur works just as well in this capacity as the SR version does.

[jak sacul]

On the back of Ragnarok Surtur's card.

Real name: Surtur


Ragnarok Surtur is therefore a character named Surter.

[Harpua]

On the back of Ragnarok Surtur's card.

Real name: Surtur


Ragnarok Surtur is therefore a character named Surter.

As shown on pages 2 and 3 of the Fantastic Four rulebook, that is not the figure's name. It is character information. The name is shown to be dispayed on the dial and the front of the character card.

[Quebbster]

However, as the character is Surtur, the modifier "Ragnarok" just emphasizing this is Surtur pumped up for a specific, end-of-the-universe-as-we-know-it event, an official ruling against being able to lead his minions would seem...petty? Somewhat ignorant from a character and story side of things? Still, there was such a ruling against Esme Cuckoo (didn't know, as I don't have one) then I can understand a judge's caution.
Just a question: Would you let the LE Son of Surtur give the bonus?
If not, what is the difference between 'Son of' and 'Ragnarok'?
On the back of Ragnarok Surtur's card.
Real name: Surtur
Ragnarok Surtur is therefore a character named Surter.
That trick didn't work with Supernova in the Crisis set (whose 'real name' is stated to be Booster Gold), so it won't work with Ragnarok Surtur either.

[Silver Lantern]

We're getting caught up in Semantics here. Its akin to saying that a card that references Namora works on Namor because Namor's name is in Namora (or Namorita)...

What I think should govern (YES I REALIZE THIS IS JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION) is if Surtur is the same Persona as Ragnarok Surtur. If so, then it should be allowed. The fact that RS and 2 demons are 299 points, is a STRONG indicator to me that the intent of the designers was that they were mean to be played together.

Despite that, a ruling like Arthur Curry and Aquaman being arch-enemies is BEYOND absurd and something I would be very hard pressed to follow. Unfortunately, that is the kind of bad ruling that would likely drive people away from playing at a particular venue or under a particular judge. I know it may seem childish to some but it's just SUCH a ridiculous ruling people should not accept it. And I have the upmost respect for judges and the belief that players should obey their rulings.

[Miraclo]

Just a question: Would you let the LE Son of Surtur give the bonus? No, of course not.

If not, what is the difference between 'Son of' and 'Ragnarok'? Because it's in all senses extremely apparent that these are different characters, whereas Surtur and Ragnarok Surtur are the same character.

Again, I can understand a judge needing to rule from the strength of the rules as written and the precedents set by earlier, similar decisions, so I wouldn't go overboard with ire if my judge were to rule that way. However, as an interim decision (and, hopefully as an official one from an RA) I would lean towards an official ruling that they're interchangeable in this instance.

[jak sacul]

That trick didn't work with Supernova in the Crisis set (whose 'real name' is stated to be Booster Gold), so it won't work with Ragnarok Surtur either.

"BWAH-HA-HA-HAH!: Blue Beetle can use Perplex. When Blue Beetle is adjacent to a friendly Booster Gold, he can use Outwit."



Supernova is not "Booster gold" Real name may be Booster gold, but is not Booster gold. It specifically states when next to a friendly BOOSTER GOLD, not a character named Booster gold.

"MINION: MARCH TO RAGNAROK!: When a friendly character named Surtur is within 8 squares, Fire Demon can use Charge and modifies its attack value by +1"

Ragnarok Surtur's character information accurately describes him a a character named Surtur.

Real Name: Surtur
"When a friendly character named Surtur is within eight squares..."

It would follow logically that Ragnarok Surtur is a character named Surtur, and thus qualifies for the power. the words "character" and "named" make this very different from the supernova example you mentioned.

The character Ragnarok Surtur is the same character as Surtur. Two fire demons and him add to 299. The power is named : March to Ragnarok.
To not let it qualify doesn't make any sense. Not by the way it's worded and not by what was clearly the intent.

[phantomrider]

if it is the case that R.S. can not work with the fire demons, and some one comes with that set up to the team and it is not allowed to be played as such, then said player shood be allowed to replace said figure with the correct one.

in friendly games at home, i dont realy care, i just want to have fun with minimal disputes about the rules.

[Quebbster]

What I think should govern (YES I REALIZE THIS IS JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION) is if Surtur is the same Persona as Ragnarok Surtur. If so, then it should be allowed. The fact that RS and 2 demons are 299 points, is a STRONG indicator to me that the intent of the designers was that they were mean to be played together.
Aren't you then also saying that the intent of the designers was that you shouldn't be able to play say the Metal Men together? Or the Royal Flush Gang? Or the Squadron Sinister?
etc etc etc...
Because it's in all senses extremely apparent that these are different characters, whereas Surtur and Ragnarok Surtur are the same character.
That's really the problem: If you cannot provide an objective definition of what constitutes a 'character', the rules cannot take such a factor into consideration. Subjective speculation shouldn't be in the rules.

And I realize I sound anal, but quite frankly I run a relaxed friendly game at my venue. We let people do stuff like this all the time. But if someone insists we play by the letter of the rulebook, we will do so.

[Uberman]

Here's how it breaks down, chums:

RULES: No, they can't.
LOGIC: Yes, they can.

Rules and Logic butt heads at every turn in this game, but manipulating the minutiae of the language in order to get it to support Logic is a task doomed to fail, because rules are generally clear and sturdy. In order to make it work you have to make exceptions to rules. Hence the million-and-a-half pages of FAQ.

I'm fairly certain that if and when a new FAQ is published, there will be a note about these guys working together. But until that time, if you build this combo into your team, be prepared for your judge to say it doesn't work, 'cause he or she is technically right.

[Technicality! That's how murderers get released!]

[Silver Lantern]

Aren't you then also saying that the intent of the designers was that you shouldn't be able to play say the Metal Men together? Or the Royal Flush Gang? Or the Squadron Sinister?
etc etc etc...


Not really Queb, it's apples and oranges. Heck, the argument the way you're making it could apply to any theme team whatsoever. However, Minions are a new mechanic in this game. So with new mechanics you have to presume that it is quite possible that a new intent was had. The demons are way better with Surtur. Isn't it kind of painfully obvious that if one of the generics in the set were meant to be played to the best of their ability only with a SR from the set, it would be kind of bunk (carpy, the suck, what have you)?

To me this is why they made the BIBTB figure Surtur, as they expected to have a lot more of this in distribution than the SR Surtur, so it makes sense. The other minions work with a variety of characters who have asgardian and diety, but to limit the top potential of a common generic to ONE SOLE SR, just seems like a carppy game design overall in my opinion. And I see too much improvement in HoT overall to think that was the case.

[Quebbster]

Here's how it breaks down, chums:

RULES: No, they can't.
LOGIC: Yes, they can.

Rules and Logic butt heads at every turn in this game, but manipulating the minutiae of the language in order to get it to support Logic is a task doomed to fail, because rules are generally clear and sturdy. In order to make it work you have to make exceptions to rules. Hence the million-and-a-half pages of FAQ.

I'm fairly certain that if and when a new FAQ is published, there will be a note about these guys working together. But until that time, if you build this combo into your team, be prepared for your judge to say it doesn't work, 'cause he or she is technically right.

[Technicality! That's how murderers get released!]

What I really like about posts like this is that they imply the rules are illogical. They are not. They are perfectly logical - in the sense of 'given these premises, what conclusions can we draw?' The fact that the premises need to be found in an official Heroclix document is what throws most people off.
Oh well, not really what this thread is about.

[Uberman]

What I really like about posts like this is that they imply the rules are illogical.

Sorry, sorry, poorly though-out on my part. My point was quite the opposite.

It's RULES vs STORY LOGIC.

Story Logic being, as can be documented all over the place, some of the least logical stuff around.

[Miraclo]

That's really the problem: If you cannot provide an objective definition of what constitutes a 'character', the rules cannot take such a factor into consideration. Subjective speculation shouldn't be in the rules.

And I realize I sound anal, but quite frankly I run a relaxed friendly game at my venue. We let people do stuff like this all the time. But if someone insists we play by the letter of the rulebook, we will do so.

As mentioned, I understand the problems a judge faces in this. The rules are very narrow in their definitions, and to open the official rulings to elements from outside material - even the source material for the characters - is to invite anarchy. With the wrong mix of people at a venue you'd never get to play a game. So, none of this was meant to be a swipe at the judge. I'd be disappointed with the ruling, but at the venue level, with no official clarification, I'd understand it.

Now, if the RA (or whatever they end up calling the person officially making these calls for the new Wizkids) takes the same approach I'll be tempted to go for the junk shot. ;)

As someone who is only in this hobby because of the comics basis, the reality that this is the same character seems very apparent to me. Is Barbie not Barbie even when she's vacationing in Malibu? ;) (Okay, she probably drinks a lot more on vacation...)

Also, Rep to you for all the grief judges have to put up with from us ranting fans.

[songwriterz]

As someone who is only in this hobby because of the comics basis, the reality that this is the same character seems very apparent to me. Is Barbie not Barbie even when she's vacationing in Malibu? ;) (Okay, she probably drinks a lot more on vacation...)

White Power: If a character named "Barbie" is acting all drunk and slutty at the beach...

Good news - I checked with the owner of the venue I play at and he agrees that Ragnarok Surtur is Surtur!!! After all this, I'm gonna have to play this team just for shoots and googles!!!

[Harpua]

Sorry, sorry, poorly though-out on my part. My point was quite the opposite.

It's RULES vs STORY LOGIC.

Story Logic being, as can be documented all over the place, some of the least logical stuff around.

Is this the same story logic that lets Giant Man hide behind a swingset?

[Uberman]

Is this the same story logic that lets Giant Man hide behind a swingset?

And disallows Batman from out-thinking a guy standing kitty-corner to him if there happen to be two other dudes there too.

[Galactus]

The following quote was taken from Wizkids facebook post about minions.

"They require a friendly character with specific keyword(s) or a specific name (a "General") to be on the map for this ability to be used by the character with the minion ability."

I bolded specific name for emphasis.

Now with that in mind I would say that Surtur is the specific name and that Ragnarok Surtur is its own specific name but not the same specific name as Surtur.

What probably happened is that there never was going to be a Ragnarok Surtur until the set was already made and the old brick figure used for something else. It will most likely be changed but as most have said by the rules you cannot use the minion ability of the Fire Demons with Ragnarok Surtur.

[Thunderclese]

No. Seth Johnson designed Armor Wars through Arkham Asylum.

Hammer of Thor was the first set designed by Kelly something-or-other (whom, I think, had until that point being designing for Mech Warrior).

Thanks.

The reason I asked is Seth Johnson had the foresight to put the Trait in for Esme Cuckoo, but maybe Ms. Kelly Bonilla (right?) overlooked it for Rags Surtur, but still had the intent in mind.

Just throwin' out another possibility there.

[Milo Garret]

A side question about the MArch to Ragnarok power: If the Fire demon is within 8 squares before the charge is made, but then becomes more than 8 squares during the charge, does the Fire demon still get +1 to the attack?

[Galactus]

A side question about the MArch to Ragnarok power: If the Fire demon is within 8 squares before the charge is made, but then becomes more than 8 squares during the charge, does the Fire demon still get +1 to the attack?

According to the minion rules that were posted I beleive the answer was no.

Yep I was right here is the actual paragraph from the Minion rules posted by Wizkids

Consider this example:
Rock Troll is exactly 8 squares away from Ulik. He uses a Power Action to use Charge, with his movement value of 8. He moves 4 squares, and is no longer within 8 squares of Ulik. He does not "stop" charging as soon as he moves outside of 8 squares - he continues to be able to use the charge ability until he begins another action. He then uses a close combat attack as a free action. Because he is now outside of 8 squares when beginning this free action, he does NOT modify his attack value by +1.

[vlad3theimpaler]

Strictly by the rules, is "Ragnarok Surtur" "a figure named Surtur?" No. Is he LOGICALLY the same character yes. Therefore, when my friend and I played today, we said that BY THE RULES, that combination would not work, but there's nothing to stop us from house-ruling it for a friendly game. And then we had a fun game, wherein Ragnarok Surtur smote Odin mightily, and it was a blast.

[dariusq]

This is similar to how keywords are assigned. Many characters are lacking keywords which they should rightfully have but officially by the book they do not and as such don't qualify under Theme status.

I'd have to say no, you could not use Ragnarok Surtur in place of SR Surtur citing the previously mentioned Cuckoo-Esme Cuckoo example:

Without an errata entry, he would not count. See Esme Cuckoo and the trait she needed to make her work with Cuckoos.

I suspect most judges would allow it though. Even if there were an errata stating otherwise the judges decision is the only one which matters. Besides I don't think either Surtur is strong enough to field in a competitive environment so this is really just a 'nerd fight' situation. ;)

[Quebbster]

Is he LOGICALLY the same character yes.
That depends on your definition of 'the same character'.
And your logic.

[ShadowMark]

Wizkids has always liked to play with words. Now, in a "house rules" format, I would say why not? But, in organized play, no.

If they wanted you to use Ragnarok Surtur to help the fire demons, the power would have read "..a friendly character with Surtur in it's name" not " a friendly character NAMED Surtur"

[Thunderclese]

Show of hands, who here has ever run into a "friendly Surtur"?

[normalview]

Show of hands, who here has ever run into a "friendly Surtur"?

He's not so bad once you get to know him; he's great to have when you go out to one of those bar with the electronic trivia contests (who would've thought he knew so much about show tunes?).

Just don't ask him to help you move... I am still trying to get the soot out of the carpet.

[vamroc]

You know what I don't think there will be a change people are just going have to get used to playing Fire Demons with regular Surtur. The reason should be obvious actually imagine if players BRING BOTH Surtur and Ragnarok Surtur then Fire Demons would be just broken. Imagine a bunch of 12 attack 3 damage 33 pt charactors with SHELLHEAD + Armor Piercing that can Charge and take teams apart before they even have a chance to deal Surtur and Ragnarok Surtur damage. Oh then there is also Hela's crazy "Lazarus Pit" inspired SP can I K.O. a figure using Surtur's SP and then after Surtur's attack use Hela's SP to roll and bring each of them back.

[Uberman]

You know what I don't think there will be a change people are just going have to get used to playing Fire Demons with regular Surtur. The reason should be obvious actually imagine if players BRING BOTH Surtur and Ragnarok Surtur then Fire Demons would be just broken. Imagine a bunch of 12 attack 3 damage 33 pt charactors with SHELLHEAD + Armor Piercing that can Charge and take teams apart before they even have a chance to deal Surtur and Ragnarok Surtur damage

That couldn't happen anyways, as March to Ragnarok would only grant them a +1 regardless of the number of Surturs around them for each].

And why isn't Ragnarok Surtur unique? That's just weird.

[dariusq]

Show of hands, who here has ever run into a "friendly Surtur"?

He's not so bad once you get to know him; he's great to have when you go out to one of those bar with the electronic trivia contests (who would've thought he knew so much about show tunes?).

Just don't ask him to help you move... I am still trying to get the soot out of the carpet.

Yeah, he's just a misunderstood guy. He and his Fire Demon friends, you just have to warm up to them. :laugh:

And you should try playing HC over had his place. Nice. Sure it's HoT, but it's a dry heat. :laugh:

"Thank you, you've been a wonderful crowd. I'll be here everyday until the day I die! G'night!!!"

[BudPalmer]

If your venue won't let you use R.S. as Surtur for the Fire Demon's SP then I say it's time to find another place to play. Then again, I play for the fun of Heroclix.

AMEN! Heck we even let the LE booster work with Bwahahaha. Does it really hurt that much? Silly!

[IceHot]

I agree with Harpua from all practical stand points.

However, Harpy, the rules do care about the characters just not in any way meaningful to the application of the rules.

I'll site some meaningless examples:

The very first rule of the rulebook

Building a force from your collection of figures, you can take on the roles of characters from throughout the Marvel universe!


From page 3 of the rulebook:

For the Basics, character cards will just tell you a bit more about the character.


From the glossary:

character: The playing piece that represents a hero, villain, or some other personality in the game.
character card: A card specific to a particular HeroClix character that is printed with information relevant to that character, such as powers, character background, first appearance, and so on.


As such I agree if your venue wishes to play by strict rules then do so, but if not you always have this rule........

Page 4 of the rulebook

FIND YOUR FUN!
Different players might enjoy playing HeroClix games at different levels of difficulty, but the best games are those in wich everyone is having as much fun as possible. If a player won’t enjoy the format of a game, see if all the players will agree to a change in format before the game begins, or offer the player a chance to sit out until the next game, when you’ll be able to tweak the format to something everyone will enjoy.

[Quebbster]

And why isn't Ragnarok Surtur unique? That's just weird.
Does it happen often that you want to play multiple 200+ point figures?
It doesn't for me... but then I've never played a game bigger than 600 points.
It could also be because someone realized "hey, with one of these in every brick people will have a lot of them. might as well let them play several at once if they want, or they'll never stop complaining about it"...

[Uberman]

Does it happen often that you want to play multiple 200+ point figures?
It doesn't for me... but then I've never played a game bigger than 600 points.
It could also be because someone realized "hey, with one of these in every brick people will have a lot of them. might as well let them play several at once if they want, or they'll never stop complaining about it"...

Yeah, fair enough.

And I just checked, Dark Beast wasn't unique either, so it's not the first time a brick figure's been that way.

Carry on, gentlemen!

[Munchoboy]

Thanks.

The reason I asked is Seth Johnson had the foresight to put the Trait in for Esme Cuckoo, but maybe Ms. Kelly Bonilla (right?) overlooked it for Rags Surtur, but still had the intent in mind.

Just throwin' out another possibility there.

IIRC, Seth actually was involved in the design of the set, but Kelly took the lead position.

Therefore, I find it difficult to lay any sort of oversight completely at Kelly's feet. After all, we know that the set was also playtested. Could it be that everybody missed this?

An answer; no. ;)

in a "house rules" format, I would say why not? But, in organized play, no.

I agree.

The Rules (and precedence) do not support allowing the Fire Demon's Minion SP to legally target Ragnarok Surtur.

However, barring any protest from my players, I would be more than happy in this instance to allow the Fire Demon's Minion SP to target Ragnarok Surtur in friendlier, "house rules"-styled events.

[gatharion]

I spoke with another local judge and we both decided that the Fire Demons could use their power with Ragnarok Surtur.
If it were somehow a more broken/cheesy combination then I would have more sympathy for the people who are championing strict rules interpretations.
Will allowing Fire Demons to work with Ragnarok Surtur really lessen the effectiveness of your OotS Batman and Ms. Skrull-Marvel teams?
Does it stay true to the comic books and enhance the appeal of these low-point minions and high-point brick figure?

[llyrghmnghyll]

Does it happen often that you want to play multiple 200+ point figures?
It doesn't for me... but then I've never played a game bigger than 600 points.
It could also be because someone realized "hey, with one of these in every brick people will have a lot of them. might as well let them play several at once if they want, or they'll never stop complaining about it"...

I've wanted to play several Monitor's together, but barring that no.

[Daky]

The fire demons power says "March to Ragnarok", so surely Ragnarok Surtur would work.

When the Ragnarok came Surtur sent the fire demons to earth to distract everyone while he ALONE went to Asgard.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Surtur_%28Earth-616%29

From the comics point of view the Rag Surtur would not qualify for the minions.

I will not allow it until I hear otherwise.

[The Vision]

Yea I don't see any judge not allowing it. Except someone who uses themselves being a judge as a means to just be a dumbass power monger


100% the truth.

[jak7890]

Alright, if you reeeeeally just have to have a minion for your RagSurt, just do a Fire Demon sculpt swap onto a Valkyrie or Asgardian Warrior dial. RagSurt is an Asgardian Deity, after all, and would activate their minion power just fine and legal like. ;)

[tidge]

Well, lets look at what the power actually says: "When a friendly character named Surtur is within 8 squares, Fire Demon can use Charge and modifies its attack value by +1".


Flip Ragnarok Surtur's card over: "Real Name: Surtur(TM)".

I'll be allowing Ragnarok Surtur to be the "boss" of the Fire Demons.

[Quebbster]

Flip Ragnarok Surtur's card over: "Real Name: Surtur(TM)".

I'll be allowing Ragnarok Surtur to be the "boss" of the Fire Demons.

Are you letting Supernova activate Bwah-ha-ha as well?
Real name: Booster Gold after all...

[tidge]

Flip Ragnarok Surtur's card over: "Real Name: Surtur(TM)".

I'll be allowing Ragnarok Surtur to be the "boss" of the Fire Demons.

And yes, I understand that distinction between the "name" and "character information" sections of the card, and that technically the "card" isn't part of the "character"...but honestly, if the game has been made such that the cards are an absolute necessity, in the absence of an errata, I will accept that the explicit "real name" on the back of a card satisfies the "name" requirement of the Fire Demon's power.

Do I expect everyone to make the same ruling? No.

[tidge]

Are you letting Supernova activate Bwah-ha-ha as well?
Real name: Booster Gold after all...

No, because the Bwah-ha-ha power doesn't refer to a "named Booster Gold".

But if the next DC set has an LE figure of Michael Carter's sister with "Booster Gold" on the dial, I'd allow it.

[Rurouni KJS]

When the Ragnarok came Surtur sent the fire demons to earth to distract everyone while he ALONE went to Asgard.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Surtur_%28Earth-616%29

From the comics point of view the Rag Surtur would not qualify for the minions.


This settles it for me that "Ragnarok Surtur" ≠ "Surtur." I won't allow it in my* games without protest, either.


* (though WizKids shut down just after I passed the test to become a judge.)


Yea I don't see any judge not allowing it. Except someone who uses themselves being a judge as a means to just be a dumbass power monger

Actually, not allowing it would frustrate the powergamers more. RagSurtur is quite powerful enough without the minions' SP and moreso with them. Normal Surtur actually needs the help.

[Silver Lantern]

When the Ragnarok came Surtur sent the fire demons to earth to distract everyone while he ALONE went to Asgard.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Surtur_%28Earth-616%29

From the comics point of view the Rag Surtur would not qualify for the minions.

I will not allow it until I hear otherwise.

So if Surtur (during the Ragnarok, thus we can say "Ragnarok Surtur") sent them to earth, and they obeyed his bidding...how are they not his minions again...I don't understand.

I think you're point has something to do with the physical location of where Rag Surtur was and that he was alone, but that doesn't change the fact that they were in fact his minions in the comic and did what he ordered them to do. Had he told them to go to Asgard, they would still be his minions if they obeyed his command. Likewise if he sent them to Cancun for spring break, no? (Which coincidentally might explain those awful sunburns they have)...

Edit: and BTW, that article you link doesn't say he went "ALONE" to asgard, only that he sent HIS legions of fire demons to earth, and then implies he went to Asgard.

[as_bat]

Really guys... do we need 6 pages of this debate?
We DO know how this game works with this kind of situations, if we don´t want to play it that way cause we don´t agree then make a house rule, just be clear that it´s a house rule and not a rule cause we do want to teach other players too.
But until we have a new RA and a pack of erratas this debate is pointless (or at least 6 pages of it).

[JOwenR2]

I hope we do get an official Ruling, I personally would like to see it errata'd to say any figure with Surtur in the name, so feasibly when daddy falls ol sonny boy can rally the troops. Since people are throwing logic into this lets be logical, if you plan on running RS+2 FD ask the judge ahead of time how he will rule. That way it doesn't rear up mid game and possibly create ill feelings/big geeky temper tantrums and possible figure damage... not naming any names you know who you are JOweR2...wait a tick THAT'S ME! All kidding aside talk to your judge the are people too.

[Quebbster]

Really guys... do we need 6 pages of this debate?

Not really. I'm seriously considering putting on my moderator hat and closing the thread.

[vlad3theimpaler]

That depends on your definition of 'the same character'.
And your logic.

"Flip Ragnarok Surtur's card over: "Real Name: Surtur(TM)"."

Sure sounds like the same character to me. Again, I'm not saying that it's the same in the RULES AS WRITTEN, just saying that Surtur is in fact, Surtur.

I wouldn't expect it to be allowed in a tournament, just like I wouldn't expect Blue Beetle's special power to work with the Michael Carter LE or Lazarus Pit with The Demon's Head. But will my friends and I house-rule it in a friendly game? Damn right we will.

[Surfer13]

I'll post my opinion and bump this thread up to where Norm might see it and post the official response...

No.

"Ragnarok Surtur" is not "Surtur". Others have already explained why.

Now if I am playing with some friends we are likely to let it slide, but if I am judging at an event, or going to an official tourney, I would not allow it or expect it to be allowed.

[Clixkilla]

As the people at your venue. If they are more interested in playing for fun, let him be used. If you play with a group of rules lawyers, I would say no.

[cattmoe]

I absolutely think he should count. It's a descriptive term for crying out loud! There are a lot of characters that have different versions and whatnot, but clearly, Surtur's minions have always followed him.

And is he really significantly different from regular Surtur? Character-wise, power-wise... he's exactly the same. "Raganrok Surtur" just designates a particular period of time, it's not like his powers were upgraded or anything.

I really hope the RA rules that the Fire Demons do work with him. I understand that the wording in this game can easily lead to powergaming abuse, but its clear that's how it should work. It's common sense.

[gatharion]

You know, the whole anti-Ragnarok Surtur thing would make more sense if the Fire Demon's card had quotation marks around Surtur. It doesn't though, the power requires a character named Surtur, not a character named "Surtur". How's that for being anal-retentive?
Ragnarok Surtur IS named Surtur. The "Ragnarok" part isn't even part of the *character's* name, it's just extra description.

I'd like to hear Norm's ruling, but at least for the time being anyone playing at either my home or a tournament that I'm running can use the Fire Demon's minion power with Ragnarok Surtur. Really people, who is it hurting?

[imaleximsweet]

I absolutely think he should count. It's a descriptive term for crying out loud! There are a lot of characters that have different versions and whatnot, but clearly, Surtur's minions have always followed him.

And is he really significantly different from regular Surtur? Character-wise, power-wise... he's exactly the same. "Raganrok Surtur" just designates a particular period of time, it's not like his powers were upgraded or anything.

I really hope the RA rules that the Fire Demons do work with him. I understand that the wording in this game can easily lead to powergaming abuse, but its clear that's how it should work. It's common sense.

if it's common sense than (or then?) "Supernova" should count as booster gold (because on the back of his card that's his real name) as should (whatever booster gold's LE's name is) but it was already ruled that only a character physically named Booster GOld works with Blue Beetle's power.

so in keeping with the ruling that is already in place, it is "common sense" that it should be ruled "NO"

but; if they errated the power itself to include ragnorock surtur, i wouldn't be upset.

but saying "Rag Surtur" is the same as "Surtur" is the same as saying "Son of Surtur" is the same as "surtur"

i understand the frustration, but its even more frustrating when rulings are not consistant.

[spider_ham]

For comic accuracy, Ragnarok Surtur is in "last-stand mode," and should be a character that faces opponents alone. "Standard" Surtur (and Son of Surtur) can command the demons.

House rules are fine for casual games, but for tournament play, there can be only one! :)

[Quebbster]

gah. I thought this thread had finally settled down. Since I don't think anyone has anything new to say, I'll just lock it down to prevent another round of pointless arguing.